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valet through Fort's who selection varies

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by location while supplies last. This

1:54

is the third and final part

1:56

of a series examining attempts to

1:59

find Noah's Ark and we're just

2:01

finally getting to the part where

2:03

people actually attempt to find Noah's

2:05

Ark. For a summation of what

2:07

we've covered so far, let's turn

2:09

to our old pal, 1976 Sun

2:11

Pictures Documentary, in search of Noah's

2:13

Ark. The motion picture you are

2:15

about to see will attempt to

2:17

unravel this 5,000-year-old mystery. We'll

2:20

try to determine if the story of

2:22

Noah is true, and if the Ark, in

2:24

fact, does rest on the slopes of

2:26

Mount Ararat. In our search, we

2:28

will examine the historical accuracy

2:30

of the Bible. We will

2:32

experience the story of Noah.

2:35

We will investigate the possibilities

2:37

of a worldwide flood. We will

2:39

relive the many adventures of

2:41

the expeditions that have scaled

2:43

Mount Errat, looking for the arc.

2:45

And we will take part in a

2:47

number of startling new discoveries.

2:50

This may be the most

2:52

incredible film you will ever see. But

2:54

the facts that will be presented

2:56

are true. In

3:01

case I haven't said it already,

3:04

and I know I have, but

3:06

in case I haven't already said

3:08

it enough, I really hate

3:11

this movie. In much the

3:13

same way, I hate the

3:15

many and various books chronicling

3:17

eyewitnesses to the arc. They're

3:20

all filled with details and

3:22

accounts that aren't just wrong

3:24

or downright fraudulent, or at

3:26

least more credible than they

3:29

are. It is our belief

3:31

that the rediscovery of Noah's

3:33

Ark and establishment of

3:35

this fact scientifically would become

3:38

the greatest Ark logic discovery

3:40

of all time. The rediscovery of

3:42

Noah's Ark were bringing to

3:44

serious doubt some most important

3:47

assumptions of modern science.

3:49

Everyone would be shocked and

3:51

startled and intrigued if Noah's

3:53

Ark were found on error at. If

3:55

Noah's Ark is there, then it shows

3:57

that the Bible even to the

3:59

very early... chapters of Genesis is

4:02

not poetry or myth, but

4:04

actual history. In this regard,

4:06

the 1976 documentary is even

4:08

worse than the literature, which

4:10

does at least on occasion

4:12

entertain some slight degree of

4:14

nuance. The movie Brooks no

4:16

doubts, no subtlety. It makes

4:18

outrageous, pseudoscientific claims in its

4:20

most full-throated voice. Like... when

4:22

they have a computer analyze

4:24

and enhance a satellite image

4:27

of Aerorat like they're on

4:29

fucking Star Trek. Now, would

4:31

it be possible to get

4:33

this enlarged so that we

4:35

could get a closer view

4:37

of Mount Aerorat itself? Yes,

4:39

we'll magnify this particular area

4:41

right there. Yeah, would you

4:43

go ahead and punch in

4:45

the command? As

4:56

new data was fed into the computer,

4:58

the image was transformed to a close-up

5:01

of Mount Ararat and the surrounding area.

5:03

Based on all the eyewitness sightings of

5:05

the arc, we knew that this area

5:08

was most likely the location of the

5:10

arc. Dr. Walsh then inserted a cursor

5:12

in the shape of a rectangle around

5:15

the suspected area. The computer was then

5:17

asked to make a six-time magnification of

5:19

the area. The blocking effect you see

5:22

is the result of this magnification. Each

5:24

block or pixel, also known as picture

5:26

element. represents one acre of territory. Next

5:29

we took our cursor, moved it to

5:31

the electronic window of the suspected area.

5:33

The cursor was then reduced to the

5:36

size of a pixel and inserted into

5:38

one of the blocks. Then we asked

5:40

the computer to tell us which pixels

5:43

have the same spectral data or reflective

5:45

light patterns as the block now containing

5:47

the cursor. Those that are the same

5:50

would turn green. The first picture element

5:52

tested showed a common reflective pattern, meaning

5:54

it was similar in most respects to

5:57

the surrounding area. Next, we moved the

5:59

cursor to the location described by the

6:01

eyewitness. When the computer was activated, it

6:04

was the only spot of the mountain

6:06

to turn green. Ooh, it is infuriating.

6:08

I'm not picking on some

6:10

fringe, low-budget, bargain-bin feature here,

6:12

by the way. In search

6:15

of Noah's Ark was the

6:17

highest grossing American movie of

6:19

1976. One of the all-time

6:21

best years for movies! taxi

6:23

driver. All the president's men,

6:25

Rocky, a star is born,

6:27

Kerry, the outlaw Josie Wales,

6:29

and my personal favorite movie

6:31

of all-time, Network. All sharing

6:34

company with this nonsense? It's

6:36

very frustrating. And it aired

6:38

not just in theaters, but

6:40

on network television. In a

6:42

day and age, when network

6:44

television was the only television,

6:46

and only three networks to

6:48

speak of in most of

6:51

the country. This thing was

6:53

seen by tens of millions

6:55

of people. As was its

6:57

1993 follow-up, the incredible discovery

6:59

of Noah's Ark. But for

7:01

reasons that will eventually become

7:03

clear, I don't hate the

7:05

incredible discovery of Noah's Ark

7:07

the way I hate its

7:10

daddy. Because it inadvertently gives

7:12

the whole game away. Oh

7:22

right, this is the constant, the

7:24

history of getting things wrong. I'm

7:26

Mark Chrysler. This week's episode, Holy

7:29

Ship, Part 3. I'm gonna warn

7:31

you right here, that this episode

7:33

is likely to be a bit

7:36

messy. In theory, this third part

7:38

is meant to focus on the

7:40

actual non-legendary attempts to find the

7:42

arc over the years. But... Like

7:45

the definitely legendary ones, there are

7:47

too many to talk about. And

7:49

the line between the real and

7:51

the legendary expeditions is, as you

7:54

might expect, pretty porous. I'm also

7:56

a little distracted from my task

7:58

by my fascination with the pair

8:00

of arc documentaries, which probably did

8:03

the most work selling these ideas

8:05

to the public. Luckily, those documentaries

8:07

have quite a bit to say

8:09

about the topic at hand. So,

8:12

I'm going to focus on a

8:14

handful of arc expeditions and arc

8:16

explorers. They aren't chosen because they're

8:18

either the best or the worst

8:21

of the lot. They're chosen, as

8:23

I usually choose things, because they're

8:25

the best stories. And altogether, they

8:27

do give a pretty good, if

8:30

not quite complete, picture of the

8:32

modern history of the bizarre hobby.

8:34

Not to mention, they give me

8:37

numerous opportunities to dunk on these

8:39

damned movies. Modern archaeology, again, that

8:41

is their phrase, seems to have

8:43

really kicked off with the so-called

8:46

Ross Gavitzki account of 1940. I

8:48

can't entirely tell if that's really

8:50

true, but it's what most of

8:52

the bigwigs in the movement say.

8:55

And given that the story was

8:57

basically discredited within a year of

8:59

publication, and published by an American

9:01

Nazi, it seems to me that

9:04

if the movement were inventing a

9:06

Genesis, they wouldn't have gone with

9:08

that one. We're

9:11

not going to get deep into

9:13

1993's incredible discovery until later, but

9:16

it's interesting to note that that

9:18

film recounts the then 53-year-old totally

9:20

debunked Roskevitzi account as fact, even

9:22

though the same filmmakers had portrayed

9:25

a different contradictory version of it

9:27

30 years earlier. That's the level

9:29

of intellectual honesty we're working with

9:31

here. It's the Roskovitsky

9:34

account, though, that it's credited with

9:36

getting Errol Cummings, a real estate

9:38

broker, and his wife Violet, onto

9:41

the case of trying to prove

9:43

the Ark is on Ararat, and

9:45

they are largely the ones responsible

9:48

for popularizing the idea. The real

9:50

king of the Ark explorers, however,

9:53

got the idea of climbing Ararat

9:55

three years before the publication of

9:57

the Russian story. Or, at least

10:00

he said he did. His name

10:02

was... Ferdinand Navarro, and the timing

10:04

of his climbs is just one

10:07

of many facts about him that's

10:09

hard to pin down. He's usually

10:11

described as a French industrialist, but

10:14

what exactly that means is left

10:16

undetailed. He also said that he

10:19

first began planning his climb in

10:21

1937, after hearing some persuasive word

10:23

that the arc was on error

10:26

at from a random Armenian, who

10:28

said he'd been told this by

10:30

his grandfather decades earlier. It's pretty

10:33

suspicious. But at least Navara actually

10:35

existed, and he did scale error

10:37

at, on at least four occasions.

10:40

Unfortunately, he probably also scaled it

10:42

a fifth time, and as we'll

10:44

find out, that's a real problem

10:47

for his credibility. Even our main

10:49

chroniclers of the Ark, Lahay and

10:52

the Cummings, don't seem to trust

10:54

Navara. No one seems to trust

10:56

Navara, or like him very much,

10:59

and almost everyone who ever worked

11:01

with him of some level of

11:03

fraud. Yet still, his story is

11:06

portrayed with all the certainty in

11:08

the world in the search for

11:10

Noah's Ark. In 1952, he discovered

11:13

an astonishing patch of blackness within

11:15

the ice. The mass was sharply

11:18

defined and looked like the ribs

11:20

of a great ship. But he

11:22

was alone. His Kurdish guides had

11:25

deserted him below and he had

11:27

to leave the mountain. In 1953,

11:29

Navarro returned to the mountain. He

11:32

found his way fairly easily, climbing

11:34

to within a hundred yards of

11:36

the timbers. But boulders perched precariously

11:39

above, rolled down at the sound

11:41

of his voice. He was able

11:44

to get about 20 yards closer

11:46

when suddenly, he felt faint. He

11:48

couldn't coordinate his movements. He could

11:51

think of only one thing to

11:53

get back down. Pause a second.

11:55

For some missing context, during that

11:58

first expedition, two of the guys

12:00

he climbed with said that he

12:02

tried to buy some old wood

12:05

from local curds before they started

12:07

climbing. And on the second climb,

12:10

Navarro claimed to have seen in

12:12

the arc and tried to take

12:14

a photo of it, but then

12:17

he fell mysteriously ill as he

12:19

attempted to hit the shutter and

12:21

was unable to. Neither of his

12:24

companions saw this happen, and he

12:26

said nothing about it to them

12:28

at the time. This third expedition

12:31

with his son was more fruitful.

12:33

Not only did they discover the

12:36

arc, but they cut a piece

12:38

off of it and brought it

12:40

back down. And they got it

12:43

all on film. And when I

12:45

say it all, I mean everything

12:47

other than the arc that they

12:50

found the wood on. Hmm, weird.

12:53

Navarro gave us on the camera

12:55

and began to lower himself into

12:57

the 30-foot deep crevasse where the

13:00

arc lay buried under ice. After

13:02

Navarro returned to France, he had

13:04

the wood tested. The testing in

13:07

question was pretty flimsy, and the

13:09

results... Eh, hell. Let's let the

13:12

documentary oversell them. The scientists chose

13:14

four testing methods which could be

13:16

easily cross-referenced. Methods which had already

13:19

been used to date such ancient

13:21

wooden artifacts as King Tuts coffin,

13:23

Egyptian canoes, and ancient wooden tools.

13:26

The test selected, with a degree

13:28

of lignite or coal formation, cell

13:31

modification, gain in wood density, and

13:33

the degree of fossilization. What

13:37

did these impressive scientific centers

13:39

learn about Fernando Vara sample?

13:42

Well, the gain and wood

13:44

density in degree of fossilization

13:46

tests showed the sample to

13:48

be around 5,000 years old.

13:50

The other two tests produced

13:52

an age of 4,484 years

13:54

plus. In other words, the

13:56

four tests agree. The wood

13:58

is a... as old as

14:01

the arc itself. Those 4,484-year

14:03

test results? Nobody's ever seen

14:05

those. They were supplied by

14:07

Navara himself, who, by the

14:09

way, had a very specific

14:11

theory about when the flood

14:13

took place, which isn't shared

14:15

by La Hay or the

14:17

Cummings, or the rest of

14:20

his semi-detractors. Guess what here?

14:22

Go on guess. Over the

14:24

next decade and a half

14:26

following Navarro's supposed discovery of

14:28

the arc, he proved quite

14:30

cagey. He published a couple

14:32

of books about his adventures,

14:34

in which he frequently contradicted

14:36

himself, and people who had

14:39

dealings with him usually came

14:41

away thinking it was all

14:43

self-promotion. One arc-happy group of

14:45

pseudoscientists, called the Archaeological Research

14:47

Foundation, tried to get him

14:49

to return to Ararat with

14:51

them. Navarre either wiggled out

14:53

of that or else demanded

14:56

so much money that Arf

14:58

couldn't pay. Instead, he gave

15:00

them maps and instructions on

15:02

where to find the arc.

15:04

When they got to Errat,

15:06

they discovered that those maps

15:08

and instructions didn't line up

15:10

with the actual surroundings. Finally,

15:12

in 1969, a new art-seeking

15:15

organization called Scientific Exploration and

15:17

Archaeological Research, or, in a

15:19

real reach of an acronym,

15:21

Search, convinced Navara to return

15:23

with them to Ararat. Here

15:25

is how, in search of

15:27

Noah's Ark, details their expedition.

15:29

Then in 1969, Fernando Navera

15:31

decided to climb the mountain

15:34

again. The famous French explorer

15:36

who'd startled the world in

15:38

1955 by finding wood agreed

15:40

to join the scientific exploration

15:42

and archaeological research team, known

15:44

as Search. Navera wanted to

15:46

prove that he could lead

15:48

another expedition back to the

15:50

same arc embedded in the

15:53

glacial ice pack on Ararat.

15:55

and hopefully recovered some more

15:57

wood. After retracing Navarre's steps

15:59

up the treacherous mountain, the

16:01

search team struggled to locate

16:03

wood in the same crevasses

16:05

where Navarre found his 1955

16:07

wood. But the crevasses were

16:09

not melted as deep as

16:12

they were in 1955, and

16:14

no wood was found in

16:16

them. Then, Navarre decided to

16:18

probe the bottom of a

16:20

small pond adjacent to the

16:22

artifact ice pack. The team's

16:24

probing poles did not reach

16:26

to the bottom. Next, Navarra

16:29

started probing a small runoff

16:31

stream from the pond. At

16:33

1115 on July 31st, 1969,

16:35

Navarra and the search team

16:37

struck pay dirt. Five pieces

16:39

of wood resembling blanking, with

16:41

the longest piece nearly 17

16:43

inches long. This new additional

16:45

find confirmed Navarra's discovery, and

16:48

for many scientists proved conclusively

16:50

that Noah had indeed stepped

16:52

forth onto dry land here,

16:54

on Mount Ararat. What the

16:56

documentary fails to say is

16:58

that according to both LaHé

17:00

and the Cummings, Navara only

17:02

directed them to the wood-laden

17:04

dig site shortly after becoming

17:07

mysteriously separated from the group,

17:09

and that after that separation,

17:11

he led them directly to

17:13

it. Like, first thing. Even

17:15

Search found this suspicious, and

17:17

after the expedition, they had

17:19

all of Navaras Wood, the

17:21

bits from 1955 and 1969,

17:23

tested with carbon-14 dating. The

17:26

samples were tested by five

17:28

separate labs, who all independently

17:30

concluded that both samples were

17:32

between 1,200 and 1,700 years

17:34

old. In a rare... partial,

17:36

not to mention fleeting moment

17:38

of candor, in search of

17:40

Noah's Ark acknowledges the carbon

17:42

14 dating of the wood

17:45

from Navara's 1955 sample, but

17:47

they don't mention the testing

17:49

of the 1969 samples at

17:51

all. Nor do they make

17:53

any note of the misgivings

17:55

shared by search, La Hay,

17:57

the Cummings, and everyone else

17:59

about Navara, even though... The

18:02

Hay, Errol Cummings, and several

18:04

other people critical of Navarro

18:06

are interviewed in the movie.

18:08

Instead, they go to pathetic

18:10

the very science of radiocarbon

18:12

dating. Carbon 14 is an

18:14

extremely popular testing procedure. However,

18:16

its accuracy has come under

18:18

some criticism recently. Dr. Melvin

18:21

A. Cook, former professor of

18:23

metallurgy at the University of

18:25

Utah, and a 1968 nitro

18:27

Nobel gold medal winner, explains.

18:30

As far as this particular wood

18:32

is concerned, I believe that long

18:35

would have a considerable difficulty in

18:37

dating it. First, the sample has

18:39

undergone a lot of different environment,

18:42

like we know that whenever a

18:44

sample of this nature is involved

18:46

in conditions like that, it shows

18:49

anomalous dating. For instance, mollusque in

18:51

water, salt water, salt water, salt

18:53

water, salt water, living well as

18:56

can show dates 3,000 years old,

18:58

as though I've been dead 3,000

19:00

years. All those dates by the

19:03

radiocarbon method, less than it really

19:05

is. Just contamination of the sample

19:07

would make it impossible really to

19:10

date that by the radiocarbon method.

19:12

I should say that while LaHay

19:14

Cummings, etc., That did not stop

19:17

any of them from including his

19:19

expeditions in their own books about

19:22

the Ark, with only the quietest

19:24

of caveats. And if that seems

19:26

strange to you, if you're wondering

19:29

why they would include testimony from

19:31

a guy they thought was somewhere

19:33

between an exaggerator and a con

19:36

man, well, hold on to that.

19:38

Because the answer to that question

19:40

is critical for understanding just what

19:43

makes this whole topic so infuriating

19:45

to me, and I believe it's

19:47

indicative of a larger, destructive trend

19:50

that is barled through much of

19:52

society of society of late. But

19:54

first, we've got a bunch more

19:57

expeditions to class here. After

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15 seconds, guidance internal, 13,

22:45

12, 10, 9, 8, ignition

22:47

sequence, start, engines on 5,

22:49

4, 3, 1, all engines

22:51

running, lunch, At

22:54

9.34 a.m. Eastern

22:56

daylight time. At

22:59

9.34 a.m. Eastern

23:02

Daylight Savings Time.

23:04

July 26th 1971

23:07

Apollo 15 set

23:10

off from Kennedy

23:12

Space Center towards

23:15

its destination the

23:18

moon. Apollo

23:22

15 was the ninth crude Apollo

23:24

mission and the fourth moon landing,

23:26

and yet in many ways it

23:28

was also the first. When Neil

23:31

Armstrong and Buzz Aldrin first set

23:33

foot on the lunar surface, they

23:35

stayed there for just a day,

23:37

21 and a half hours. And

23:39

while they did do some experiments

23:42

and collection, the main thrust of

23:44

the accomplishment was in the getting

23:46

there itself. Apollo 12 spent 31

23:48

hours on the surface and Apollo

23:50

14 just two hours longer than

23:53

that Apollo 13 You're likely to

23:55

remember didn't get to land at

23:57

all and barely made it back

23:59

to Earth In contrast the Apollo

24:02

15 mission ran 12 days seven

24:04

hours, 11 minutes and 53 seconds,

24:06

three days of which were spent

24:08

on the lunar surface. With that

24:10

extra time, astronauts David R. Scott

24:13

and James B. Irwin were able

24:15

to do a lot more sciencey

24:17

stuff, including driving around in the

24:19

lunar rover, collecting samples from a

24:21

relatively wide area. One of those

24:24

samples was a large moon rock,

24:26

known popularly as the Genesis rock,

24:28

which has been determined to be

24:30

at least four billion years old.

24:32

Which does throw a spanner into

24:35

the young earth belief that the

24:37

universe began just 6,000 odd years

24:39

ago, but that is not why

24:41

I bring up Apollo 15. During

24:44

the Apollo 15 mission, one of

24:46

the three astronauts, James Irwin, experienced

24:48

a religious awakening. Which, if you're

24:50

gonna choose a place to experience

24:52

a religious awakening, you could do

24:55

worse, huh? Pretty much puts the

24:57

road to Damascus to shame, doesn't

24:59

it? After he returned to Earth,

25:01

he retired from NASA to form

25:03

an evangelical outreach organization called the

25:06

High Flight Foundation. I might note

25:08

that while I'm not doubting Irwin's

25:10

commitment to evangelical Christianity, you'll soon

25:12

see that that commitment is readily

25:14

apparent. His resignation from NASA also

25:17

happened to coincide with a small

25:19

scandal. Erwin and the other two

25:21

Apollo 15 astronauts had secretly scrolled

25:23

away around 400 postal covers, basically

25:26

postcards, with First Man on the

25:28

Moon postage stamps affixed to them,

25:30

which they signed and brought back

25:32

to Earth hoping to sell to

25:34

a German stamp collector for a

25:37

bunch of money, which they planned

25:39

to then use as a trust

25:41

fund for their children. At the

25:43

time of Erwin's retirement, he was

25:45

facing disciplinary action for the stamp

25:48

scandal. which might have played some

25:50

part in all this. At any

25:52

rate, in 1976, the year in

25:54

search of Noah's Ark came out,

25:56

Erwin met Errol Cummings and told

25:59

him he wanted to be a

26:01

part of the next search for

26:03

the boat. It was a real

26:05

boon for the archaeology movement. Not

26:08

only did having a former astronaut

26:10

on board lend the otherwise suspiciously

26:12

unqualified group a serious boost in

26:14

gravitas, but Erwin's fame allowed him

26:16

to get warm and snugly with

26:19

Turkish President Kenan Evrin, who had

26:21

otherwise closed off-mount era rat to

26:23

foreigners for fear of causing an

26:25

international incident with the neighboring Soviet

26:27

Union. In

26:30

1982, Erwin was able to convince Evrin

26:32

to give him an expedition. Erwin later

26:34

told the Canberra Times, it's easier to

26:36

walk on the moon than climb Aerorat,

26:39

and he got the bumps to prove

26:41

it. On his first ascent, he was

26:43

separated from the expedition and took a

26:46

bad fall that knocked him unconscious. He

26:48

had to hunker down in his sleeping

26:50

bag for the night to survive, until

26:52

a search party rescued him the next

26:55

day. But with time awaits him, he

26:57

returned to Aerorat just a month later.

26:59

In a book written by his wife,

27:01

Mary, she conjectured that he was still

27:04

suffering the effects of a concussion and

27:06

had failed to properly prepare for the

27:08

second mission. After one night, Erwin and

27:11

his team had to give up and

27:13

come back to base camp. Erwin made

27:15

several more attempts to find the arc

27:17

over the next six years, but each

27:20

of them were stymied by some uncomfortable

27:22

factor or another. In 1983, he brought

27:24

a much larger team, which included Errol

27:27

Cummings. One of their guides said he

27:29

had seen some wood above the snow

27:31

line. but the expedition was unable to

27:33

reach that site. In 1984, Erwin came

27:36

back with a smaller team and managed

27:38

to reach the wood spotted by the

27:40

guide that previous year. It turned out

27:42

to be a pair of snow skis.

27:45

The last few attempts were more disappointing.

27:47

Since 1978, the area around Ararat was

27:49

more or less an active war zone

27:52

between the Turkish military and the PKK,

27:54

a Turkish separatist group. When Irwin made

27:56

the climb in 1985, he was accompanied

27:58

by some 30 soldiers. Kurdish and Soviet

28:01

troops were spotted nearby, and the soldiers

28:03

demanded that Erwin and his small team

28:05

leave before he could be taken hostage

28:08

by the rebels. Erwin worried that the

28:10

publicity he brought to the mission was

28:12

a double-edged sword, that his presence attracted

28:14

too much attention, not just from the

28:17

Soviets and the PKK, but even from

28:19

members of the Turkish government, who worried

28:21

what the ex-American Air Force member might

28:23

really be up to in their country.

28:27

In 1986, while playing handball, he

28:29

suffered a massive heart attack which

28:31

required an emergency triple bypass. Two

28:33

months later, he had another while

28:35

cross-country skiing in Colorado. His doctors

28:38

recommended he go light on physical

28:40

activity, which very expressly included any

28:42

Armenian mountain climbing. Erwin was disappointed

28:44

that he wouldn't be able to

28:46

climb Ararat again, even though by

28:49

that point he was of the

28:51

mind that the Ark wasn't there

28:53

to find. He still believed in

28:55

the flood, and in Noah, he

28:57

even believed that the boat had

28:59

landed there on the mountain, but

29:02

he doubted it had survived the

29:04

thousands of years since. A totally

29:06

reasonable position, not shared by the

29:08

many people who cherry-picked his story

29:10

to build a conspiratorial narrative of

29:13

Muslim and Soviet intervention meant to

29:15

hide the arc from his searching.

29:17

You'd best believe, that version was

29:19

featured in the 1993 documentary. Let's

29:24

talk about 1993's The Incredible

29:26

Discovery of Noah's Ark. Because

29:28

it is an especially venal

29:30

example of archaeology's many shortcomings.

29:32

A large portion of The

29:34

Incredible Discovery is just a

29:37

repackaging of 1976's in surge

29:39

of Noah's Ark. I haven't

29:41

actually done the math, but

29:43

footage from the 1976 film

29:45

might make up a bare

29:47

majority of the 1993 one.

29:55

It's got a new host, though, actor

29:57

Darren McEvin. You'd recognize him if you

29:59

saw him. Maybe from the 1955 film

30:02

adaptation of Nelson Algren's The Man with

30:04

the Golden Arm with Frank Sinatra, or

30:06

as the father in a Christmas story,

30:08

or from his roles as the father

30:10

of both Candace Bergen and Adam Sandler

30:13

in Murphy Brown and Billy Madison, respectively.

30:15

Our search for the Ark of Noah

30:17

is not meant to be a religious

30:19

mission. Above all this is an archaeological

30:22

quest to determine if this ancient mystery

30:24

is truth or fable. Ultimately, our quest

30:26

is to find the Ark itself. The

30:29

arc is probably the best known

30:32

and most debated religious artifact in

30:34

the world. Arc researchers and scholars

30:36

have raised many serious and controversial

30:39

questions. You're not very likely to

30:41

remember McGaven from his short-lived supernatural

30:43

detective series, Kolchak the Nightstalker. Which

30:46

is too bad, because it relates

30:48

quite poetically to his spot as

30:50

narrator in the Incredible Discovery of

30:53

Noah's Ark. In Colchack, McGavin played

30:55

a titular reporter who week by

30:58

week stumbled upon some crime or

31:00

another, all of which turned out

31:02

to have a supernatural element. Kind

31:05

of like, dateline meets the X

31:07

files. In every episode of Colchack,

31:09

McGavin would end up with some

31:12

sort of evidence of the real

31:14

and insidious cause of the crime.

31:16

Evidence which would invariably be destroyed,

31:19

lost or stolen by some shadowy

31:21

figure or another. Which is very

31:23

much like how many arc stories

31:26

go. There

31:39

is, for example, the story of

31:41

George Green. George Jefferson Green was

31:43

on a reconnaissance mission looking for

31:45

oil sites, traveling in a helicopter

31:47

when he saw the great ship

31:49

protruding from the rocks with only

31:51

one side exposed. Who is supposed

31:54

to have taken six remarkably unambiguously

31:56

clear photographs of the arc on-era.

31:58

during a helicopter survey of the

32:00

mountain in the mid-60s when he

32:02

was working for an oil company.

32:04

Reaching for his camera, Green directed

32:06

the helicopter pilot to maneuver the

32:08

craft as close as possible to

32:10

the huge structure below. Closer and

32:12

closer they edged, while the excited

32:15

engineer recorded his discovery on film.

32:17

Sideways, head-on, from closer than a

32:19

hundred feet away, the shutter clicked,

32:21

while the sun was beginning to

32:23

lower in the western sky. Many

32:25

people have noted that this doesn't

32:27

make a lot of sense, that

32:29

the oil fields of Turkey aren't

32:31

located anywhere near Ararat, that there

32:33

are no records of Greens Company

32:36

conducting surveys in the area, and

32:38

that, in any event, a helicopter

32:40

flight around the mountain in the

32:42

mid-60s would have been unlikely, given

32:44

the hostile relationship with the neighboring

32:46

USSR. But aside from that... No

32:48

one has ever seen these six

32:50

incontrovertible photographs, which the documentary eventually

32:52

admits, while seeming to insinuate that

32:54

their absence is by the design

32:57

of some nefarious party. Green took

32:59

what turned out to be six

33:01

extraordinary photographs, or so his friend

33:03

say. For Green, who transferred to

33:05

a mining operation in British Guyana,

33:07

was murdered. All of his belongings,

33:09

including the valuable photographs, disappeared. Both

33:11

the 1976 and 1993 movies talk

33:13

about some sightings supposedly made by

33:15

American pilots during World War II,

33:18

which are as unlikely as you'd

33:20

suspect them to be. Several times

33:22

during those years. Report surface saying

33:24

that airmen had seen the arc

33:26

locked in the glacial mass below.

33:28

But to bolster this, they make

33:30

an oft-repeated claim. One of these

33:32

sightings was reported in a 1943

33:34

edition of the U.S. Army paper,

33:36

Stars and Stripes. No copy of

33:39

that photograph, or even any mentions

33:41

of the arc, has ever been

33:43

found in the magazine, which obviously

33:45

is also the result of a

33:47

conspiracy. While the 1976 version details

33:49

the hypothetically same events in more

33:51

general terms, the 1993 movie includes

33:53

a specific account given by an

33:55

elderly editor. Davis. At that particular

33:57

time you couldn't see the arc.

34:00

When you got where you could

34:02

see it he would come back

34:04

and get me. A couple of

34:06

months later he come back. He

34:08

said we can see it, let's

34:10

go. We were all tied together

34:12

about 20 feet apart with a

34:14

big roll. I was never as

34:16

cold as wet. as hungry and

34:18

tired in my life as I

34:21

was when I got up there.

34:23

I was trying to show me

34:25

the arc. When I was timing

34:27

it looked like a big piece

34:29

of blue rock. And then we

34:31

moved back and then we could

34:33

see in the end of it.

34:35

It was awesome. You knew somebody

34:37

was watching it. There was something

34:39

going on. I don't know how

34:42

to explain that. feeling, but you

34:44

knew someone there's something, well, it

34:46

was just a mighty power some

34:48

place there present. It was no

34:50

his art. To prove Ed Davis's

34:52

account, incredible discovery turns to Larry

34:54

Williams, another guy who claimed to

34:56

have found the arc, as well

34:58

as the Ten Commandments and a

35:00

bunch of other stuff he never

35:03

produced, who said that he had...

35:05

polygraphed Ed Davis. Oh, nothing more

35:07

dependable than a polygraph, right? After

35:09

two real and tense hours, the

35:11

polygraph expert came out and said,

35:13

Larry, I can't tell you what

35:15

mountain Ed Davis was on. I

35:17

can't tell you if it was

35:19

Noah's Ark, but I'll tell you

35:21

this. Ed Davis saw a boat,

35:24

and Ed Davis is not lying.

35:26

What the movie fails to note

35:28

is that Ed Davis was stationed

35:30

in Hamadon, Iran, some 400 miles

35:32

from Mount Ararat, a distance he

35:34

claims to have covered in a

35:36

single day on foot. He also

35:38

originally said the people who led

35:40

him to the arc were Iranian

35:42

lures, who likewise don't live anywhere

35:45

near Ararat. His description of Ararat

35:47

sounds nothing like the mountain. It

35:49

includes running freshwater streams and mountain

35:51

caves which don't exist there. He

35:53

says that all the locals knew

35:55

its location, which was easily reachable.

35:57

Oh, and on the way there,

35:59

he also said his guides showed

36:01

him the Garden of Eden. None

36:03

of that made the documentary for

36:06

some reason. Ed Davis's interview, though,

36:08

is one of three given special

36:10

attention in the Incredible Discovery, which

36:12

Darren McGavin introduces like so. Maybe

36:14

it's ironic or perhaps fitting, that

36:16

those in recent years who have

36:18

reported being eyewitnesses to the ark,

36:20

are the most average of people

36:22

from all walks of life. Humble

36:24

individuals who have no exalted point

36:27

to prove, no book to sell,

36:29

no doctrine to voice upon the

36:31

world. We've located four people who

36:33

have had unique encounters with Noah's

36:35

Ark on Mount Ararat. We've sought

36:37

them out, not one of them

36:39

is writing a book about their

36:41

experience. None preachers from a pulpit.

36:43

In each case, their experience of

36:45

seeing the arc was very moving

36:48

and highly personal. The first is

36:50

that of Ed Bailing. I made

36:52

it a goal when I left

36:54

the United States to go to

36:56

Turkey to see as much as

36:58

I could. Mustafa and I got

37:00

along very well. He was in

37:02

the army at that time about

37:04

a year. I was talking to

37:06

Mustafa and telling him how I

37:09

wanted us to go up and

37:11

see the arc. He said he

37:13

had a great uncle that knew

37:15

where the arc was. his great

37:17

uncle was going to take us

37:19

up to it. So I was

37:21

kind of exciting, you know, boy,

37:23

I'm on an adventure. We found

37:25

ourselves at this old tent, this

37:27

old camp. Mustafa's great uncle. He

37:30

knew it all, basically. He was

37:32

the elder of all. His uncle

37:34

seemed kind of reluctant to take

37:36

us up there. You know, I'm

37:38

talking to most of him. He

37:40

says, you know, well, I convinced

37:42

him that you're okay. Locals who

37:44

live here are very suspicious of

37:46

outsiders. This visit to the art

37:48

would have been impossible. I ask

37:51

him to take care of him.

37:53

But he preferred that I didn't.

37:55

He said, Arad is close to

37:57

the Russian border. And you're American.

37:59

I'm Turkish. They could cause some

38:01

uncomfortable situations. Mustafa's great uncle. Took

38:03

us right up the side of

38:05

this mountain. And we were going

38:07

around rocks and above cliffs and

38:09

below cliffs. It was like a

38:12

trail. He knew exactly where he

38:14

was going. And I'm tired and

38:16

I'm winded. And it's, oh boy,

38:18

when is this ever going to

38:20

end? When are we going to

38:22

see the art? If we don't

38:24

see it pretty soon. I want

38:26

to I want to I want

38:28

to go back. I want to

38:30

go back. I want to go

38:33

back. His uncle turns around and

38:35

laughs at me, and he points

38:37

down, and then all of a

38:39

sudden you look down and hear

38:41

this huge, awesome ship sitting below

38:43

you in this fog, you know,

38:45

it's almost like, you know, you

38:47

picture a dream, and there it

38:49

is. What you can't see in

38:51

this podcast is that Baling's interview

38:54

is a little off. It's clearly

38:56

not being taken by the same

38:58

film crew that directed the rest

39:00

of the incredible discovery, and that's

39:02

not incidental. The interview was taken

39:04

years before the 1993 documentary, after

39:06

which Ed Bailing was asked several

39:08

pretty simple questions about his account,

39:10

like how he had managed to

39:12

light a campfire at 13,000 feet

39:15

of elevation. He was unable to

39:17

answer and instead totally clammed up

39:19

and refused to talk to anyone

39:21

about the arc ever again, even

39:23

apparently the credulous producers of the

39:25

incredible discovery of Noah's Ark. Bill

39:27

Cruz, a self-described arc hunter, was

39:29

able to interview some people who

39:31

knew at Bailing though, they described

39:33

him as enthusiastic, sincere, and prone

39:36

to exaggeration. As with at Davis'

39:38

story, and several others besides, Bailings

39:40

is also suspicious because according to

39:42

him, it was pretty easy to

39:44

find the arc, and even easier

39:46

to see it. And a whole

39:48

bunch of locals had. which is

39:50

pretty hard to square with the

39:52

literally hundreds of expeditions to Aerorat

39:54

which have failed to find it.

39:57

And the thousands of interviews taken

39:59

with those who live around the

40:01

mountain, many of whom claim to

40:03

be aware of the legends of

40:05

the arc, but none of whom

40:07

have ever been able to locate

40:09

it. Most don't seem to believe

40:11

it's really there, at least not

40:13

anymore. It is definitely the third

40:15

interview that makes the incredible discovery

40:18

distinct from its predecessor, though. That

40:20

of George Jamal. I

41:02

was never really a runner. The way I see

41:04

running is a gift, especially when you have stage

41:06

four cancer. I'm Anne. I'm running the Boston Marathon

41:09

presented by Bank of America. I run for

41:11

Dana Farber Cancer Institute to give people like

41:13

me a chance to thrive in life,

41:15

even with cancer. Join Bank of America

41:17

in helping Anne's cause. Give if you

41:19

can at B ofa.com/support Anne. What would

41:22

you like the power to do? References

41:24

to Charitable Organizations. It's not endorsement by

41:26

Bank of America Corporation. Corporation. Coporation.

41:28

Copyright copyright copyright, copyright,

41:30

copyright. Copyright 2025. Mr.

41:49

Jamal is an unassuming man now

41:51

married and living in California. He

41:53

is a devout individual whose personal

41:55

spirit of adventure led him to

41:58

climb Mount Ararat three times in

42:00

search of the ark. His remembrance

42:02

of the third climb in 1984

42:05

brings feelings mixed with both exhilaration

42:07

and sorrow. In July

42:09

of 1984 I returned to Turkey

42:12

for the third time to look

42:14

for Noah's Ark on Mount Arat.

42:16

I was joined by Vladimir

42:19

Forbitsky who returned every year

42:21

to Turkey to look for

42:23

the ark. On this part

42:25

of the mountain there were

42:27

many crevasses. And we had

42:30

to be very careful. Vladimir was

42:32

such an expert climber, I was

42:34

so happy to have him along.

42:36

The year before, he saw something

42:39

that looked like a cave high

42:41

on the mountain. Before he could

42:43

get to it, an avalanche of

42:46

ice and rocks crossed the

42:48

opening. Vladimir was quite insistent

42:50

about trying to find it

42:53

again. So that's where we

42:55

were heading. It

42:58

was almost an obsession.

43:00

It was all that

43:03

mattered to us. For three

43:05

days, we looked along

43:07

the mountain ledge that

43:09

was covered with ice

43:11

and rocks. Sometimes a

43:14

fog would roll in,

43:16

and we would have to

43:18

sit for hours to

43:20

continue on. On the third

43:23

day... more digging. We dug here,

43:25

we dug there, we dug everywhere,

43:27

we moved rocks, we tried

43:29

to dig in the ice. One

43:31

time I was hitting a layer of

43:33

ice with my axe when I heard

43:35

a hollow echo. I called Vladimir. He

43:38

came over and we dug and

43:40

made a hole big enough to

43:42

crawl through. Inside

44:01

it was dark so we

44:04

used our flashlight. Then we

44:06

noticed the walls and the

44:08

floor were not stones or

44:10

dirt but made from wood.

44:13

Very old dark wood. It

44:15

was not a cave at

44:17

all. We got very excited

44:19

when we saw part of

44:21

this room was made into

44:24

pens like places where you

44:26

keep animals. We knew that

44:28

we had found the arc.

44:30

The room we were in

44:32

was small, but we could

44:35

see other rooms with pens

44:37

and wooden railings beyond blocked

44:39

by ice. If Vladimir wanted

44:41

to take a piece of

44:44

the wood with us to

44:46

prove we had been there.

44:48

At first I was worried.

44:50

I was like afraid. For

44:52

me it was like going

44:55

into a church and taking

44:57

a set of Jesus. But

44:59

I decided also. I want

45:01

to prove I was in

45:03

the arc. So we each

45:06

took a small part of

45:08

the wood. Vladimir and I

45:10

had very big plans. We

45:12

would come back with scientists

45:15

and movie cameras so that

45:17

everyone would know that we

45:19

found the arc. Outside, we

45:21

took pictures because we wanted

45:23

to be able to identify

45:26

this part of the mountain

45:28

when we come back. I

45:35

gave my camera to

45:37

Vladimir to take my

45:39

picture. He stepped back

45:42

to take the picture.

45:44

And he fell and

45:46

that made some noise

45:48

and there was an

45:51

avalanche. It was so

45:53

deep I couldn't get

45:55

to him. And that

45:57

is where he died.

46:01

Vladimir and I decided if

46:03

we found the Ark, we

46:05

would tell everyone and make

46:07

it a big deal, big

46:09

event. But when he died,

46:12

he just couldn't do that.

46:14

It didn't seem right. You

46:16

see, Vladimir was the one

46:18

who insisted we look for

46:20

the keep. Because of him,

46:22

we found the Ark. I

46:34

know what you're wondering, did

46:37

Vladimir really die on Ararat?

46:39

No. Was Vladimir a real

46:41

person at all? Also, no.

46:43

Had George Jamal really been

46:45

to Ararat? Ever? Again, no.

46:47

How about this piece of

46:49

the arc? This is a

46:51

piece of wood, which I

46:53

brought back from Noah's Ark.

46:55

The wall was so hard,

46:57

we have to chop... and

46:59

yank it was from the

47:01

inside. To me, this piece

47:04

of wood is so precious

47:06

and a gift from God.

47:08

The most incredible archaeological artifact

47:10

ever collected, which I shit

47:12

you not, Jamal literally pulled

47:14

out of a Danish butter

47:16

cookies tin? Is that real?

47:18

So very much no. George

47:20

Jamal literally pulled out of

47:22

a Danish butter cookies tin?

47:24

Is that real? was full

47:26

of shit, which doesn't come

47:28

as a shock, I'm sure,

47:30

but it was a different

47:33

variety of shit than the

47:35

rest of the interviewees. The

47:37

Incredible Discovery of Noah's Ark

47:39

aired on CBS Prime Time

47:41

on February 20, 1993. Several

47:43

months later, George LaRue, professor

47:45

of biblical history and archaeology

47:47

at the USC, not to

47:49

mention an editorial board member

47:51

of the then newly minted

47:53

skeptic magazine, published a press

47:55

release in which he claimed

47:57

that Jamal's story was a

47:59

complete fabrication. The drama that

48:02

followed was, I must say,

48:04

spectacular. At first, the production

48:06

company behind the film, Sun

48:08

Pictures, attacked LaRue for attacking

48:10

George Jamal, writing, It is

48:12

sad and unfortunate that Dr.

48:14

LaRue, a distinguished U.S.C. professor,

48:16

would victimize Mr. Jamal and

48:18

his family to execute a

48:20

third-party hoax in which he

48:22

was the primary benefactor. They

48:24

were joined in this line

48:26

of defense by CBS as

48:28

well as the Institute for

48:31

Creation Research, or ICR. What

48:33

ICR's part was in the

48:35

making of the incredible discovery

48:37

is unclear, but a whole

48:39

lot of the people interviewed

48:41

for the documentary were connected

48:43

to them, as we'll see.

48:45

Anyway, that was the company

48:47

line in the summer of

48:49

1993, that some evil atheist

48:51

professor was trying to besmirch

48:53

the name of a good

48:55

Bible-believing Christian who had discovered

48:57

Noah's Ark. Then, in August,

49:00

things began to shift. That

49:02

month, Jamal gave a cryptic

49:04

interview to his local paper,

49:06

in which he refused to

49:08

say whether he was, in

49:10

fact, a good Bible-believing Christian.

49:13

The reporter noted that on

49:15

his wall, he had a

49:17

framed poem extolling the virtues

49:19

of secular humanism. What? Are

49:21

you a secular humanist? I

49:23

might, might, depending on the

49:26

day of the week, respond.

49:28

Huh, you know, I guess

49:30

I kind of am now

49:32

that you mention it. I'm

49:34

pretty sure that that puts

49:36

me in the top 5%

49:39

of the most devoted secular

49:41

humanists in the world. But

49:43

this guy's got an ode

49:45

to secular humanism hanging on

49:47

his wall in a frame?

49:49

Arthur C. Clark, author of

49:52

2001 at Space Odyssey and

49:54

sort of inventor of the

49:56

telecommunication satellite, he was such

49:58

a secular... that the International

50:00

Academy of Humanism named him

50:02

their humanist Laureate, and I

50:05

will bet you dollars to

50:07

donuts, Arthur C. Clark didn't

50:09

have a humanist poem hanging

50:11

on his wall. A humanist

50:13

black light poster? Possibly, but

50:15

not a poem. Sun pictures,

50:18

we're in deep shit. In

50:21

October, George DeMall delivered the keynote

50:23

speech at the annual conference of

50:25

the Freedom from Religion Foundation, which

50:27

he had been a card-carrying dues-paying

50:29

member of since 1986. I know!

50:31

How many of those could there

50:33

even be? Like, seven? Six? Since

50:36

Christopher Hitchens kicked it? Un-fucking real!

50:38

In his address, George Jamal came

50:40

fully clean about his hoax. He

50:42

had attended a debate about creationism

50:44

v. Evolution in 1985. The debaters

50:46

had been Fred Edwards, president of

50:48

the Secular Human Association, no poems

50:50

on his wall, though I'd guess,

50:52

and Dwayne Gish, one of the

50:54

most famous, or infamous, depending on

50:57

your persuasion, creationists in the world.

50:59

And one of the most notoriously

51:01

infuriating debaters, too. Jamal was infuriated,

51:03

that's for sure. When he left

51:05

the debate, he began cooking up

51:07

his hoax, with the initial goal

51:09

of embarrassing Dwayne Gish. A few

51:11

months later, he was walking along

51:13

the railroad tracks near his workplace,

51:15

and it occurred to him, like

51:18

a divine revelation, that he might

51:20

be able to take a chunk

51:22

of wooden railroad tie and trick

51:24

Gish into thinking it was a

51:26

piece of Noah's arc. So, that's

51:28

what he did. He wrote Gish

51:30

a letter in November of 1985

51:32

in which he invented a wending

51:34

story of having discovered the arc

51:36

on Mount Ararat. You've already heard

51:39

the gist of it from Jamal

51:41

himself, but you might have missed

51:43

the names. His Russian companion, who

51:45

died taking his picture, his name

51:47

was Vladimir Sobitsky. They were aided

51:49

by a Turkish man. Jamal called

51:51

Mr. Ascholian, and his son-in-law, Al-A-

51:53

that's all is bullshit Ian. After

51:55

writing Gish, John Morris, president of

51:57

the Institute for Creation Research, then

52:00

reached out to Jamal to set

52:02

up an interview. I'm not clear

52:04

on the chain of custody from

52:06

Gish to Morris, nor am I

52:08

clear on how deeply Gish swallowed

52:10

the bait. Morris's interview with Jamal

52:12

is pretty embarrassing. For Morris, not

52:14

Jamal. I mean, Jamal proves time

52:16

and time again to not know

52:18

what the hell he's talking about,

52:21

but that's the point. And when

52:23

Jamal does appear to know what

52:25

he's talking about, it's usually because

52:27

Morris is naively feeding into him.

52:29

Morris walked away unsure of what

52:31

to think of Jamal's story. He

52:33

believed that Jamal had been on

52:35

air rat and he believed that

52:37

he believed that he believed that

52:39

he believed he'd seen the arc,

52:42

but Jamal's story was vague and

52:44

in several places contradicted Morris's own

52:46

belief of where the boat was

52:48

located. So he kind of sat

52:50

on the whole thing. He sent

52:52

transcripts of the interview of the

52:54

interview to some fellow archaeologists, but

52:56

that was it. And then, in

52:58

the pre-production days of The Incredible

53:00

Discovery of Noah's Ark, on which

53:03

Morris was not just an interviewee,

53:05

but a consultant, he told the

53:07

filmmakers they should seek out Jamal.

53:09

Keep in mind, this was seven

53:11

years after Jamal had written his

53:13

funny little letter and sat for

53:15

his deceptive little interview. Now, out

53:17

of the blue, there were a

53:19

bunch of creationist filmmakers knocking on

53:22

his door about it? Jamal didn't

53:24

know what to do. So he

53:26

contacted Gerald LaRue, professor of archaeology

53:28

and biblical history at USC and

53:30

an editorial board member at Skeptic

53:32

Magazine, and asked him. LaRue's advice

53:34

was to roll with it. So

53:36

that's just what George Jamal did.

53:40

When Jamal came forward with the

53:42

whole story of his hoax, it

53:45

ignited a shitstorm big enough to

53:47

rain for 40 days and 40

53:49

nights. The story was carried prominently

53:51

in Time magazine. And the press

53:54

release Sun Pictures had put out

53:56

defending themselves by defending Jamal was

53:58

now not even insufficient. For a

54:00

brief, if shining moment, they attempt

54:03

to... a fantastically incoherent strategy in

54:05

which they pointed to Morris' 1985

54:07

interview with Jamal as proof that

54:09

LaRue couldn't have masterminded the hoax,

54:12

which, yes, he didn't. But son

54:14

and ICR were still holding on

54:16

to the validity of Jamal's story

54:18

when it had already turned to

54:21

Ashes. So after a few slap

54:23

dash revisions, they settled on a

54:25

new press release, which cast George

54:27

Jamal as an ingenious, Andy Kaufman-level

54:30

prankster, who had managed to construct

54:32

a story so thoroughly convincing that

54:34

not even the filmmakers, who had

54:36

left no stone unturned in their

54:39

research, could avoid falling for it.

54:41

That's when Jim LaPard got involved.

54:44

Professionally Jim LaPard works or

54:47

worked in information security, but

54:49

he's also a voracious skeptic

54:51

and a venomous atheist. He

54:53

might have a poem about

54:55

secular humanism somewhere in his

54:58

house, but if so, it's

55:00

a limerick. In

55:02

a 1993 issue of skeptic magazine,

55:04

LaPard produced a blisteringly thorough examination

55:07

of the incredible discovery of Nozark

55:09

with a special focus on George

55:11

Jamal and the credibility of Sun

55:13

Pictures' claim that they had been

55:16

fooled in spite of rigorous and

55:18

critical examination of his story. What

55:20

he found, unsurprisingly, was that Jamal's

55:22

hoax had been extremely penetrable and

55:25

that Sun Pictures hadn't just not

55:27

done their due diligence, they'd ignored

55:29

some serious warning signs. The

55:33

specific inconsistencies and red flags in

55:35

Jamal's account are many, but not

55:37

particularly interesting to go into. There

55:39

were, just for starters, those invented

55:41

names, juvenile puns, that Jamal had

55:43

given for his key characters. What's

55:45

more telling is that several of

55:48

the researchers and interviewees on the

55:50

film had told the producers that

55:52

they didn't think Jamal was credible.

55:54

They were ignored. Worst of all,

55:56

was the piece of arc, which

55:58

again, Jamal kept in a cookie

56:00

tin. An absolutely brilliant touch. Jamal

56:02

gave it to the producers for

56:04

testing, and in the final product,

56:07

they do a particularly suspicious slight

56:09

of hand over it. Near the

56:11

end of the movie, in something

56:13

of a summary, they dissolve from

56:15

a reenactment of Jamal's phony arc

56:17

expedition to a photo of the

56:19

wood collected by Navara, with McGaven

56:21

saying, samples of the wood taken

56:23

from the vessel have been dated

56:25

to the time when the Bible

56:28

indicates a worldwide flood occurred. Technically,

56:30

they are not saying that Jamal's

56:32

wood was dated that way, but

56:34

it is heavily implied. If they

56:36

had, actually tested Jamal's cookie tin

56:38

arc splinter, they'd have found it

56:40

was a bit of California railroad

56:42

tie, which Jamal had dried by

56:44

baking and darkened by, and really

56:47

take this in, boiling it in

56:49

teriyaki sauce. This

56:51

was the most damning fact of

56:53

them all, and Sun tried several

56:55

unsuccessful ways to wriggle out from

56:57

under it. In its article on

56:59

The Hokes, Time magazine questioned why

57:01

the producers had neglected to test

57:03

Jamal's wood at all. The lead

57:05

researcher and writer on the incredible

57:07

discovery was David Balsiger, who we

57:09

will come back to in a

57:11

bit. In comments to time, he

57:13

explained himself by saying, quote, we

57:15

couldn't test the wood in time

57:18

for our deadline. That wasn't good

57:20

enough though, and in a September

57:22

article for the Long Beach Press

57:24

telegram, George Damall's hometown paper, Balsinger

57:26

got more defensive, saying, this is

57:28

an entertainment show. We're not supposed

57:30

to make our own news or

57:32

tests. But the news that they

57:34

had been so clearly duped seemed

57:36

to have upset CBS, who stopped

57:38

supporting Sun. In a letter to

57:40

CBS, Sun's president, Charles Celier, offered

57:42

yet another defense, writing, even if

57:44

we had the money. and time

57:46

to test every piece of evidence

57:48

presented by experts, it would not

57:50

have been definitive, as there would

57:52

still be those who disagree and

57:54

take exception to the findings. Weak

57:56

T. Almost as weak, as the

57:58

position sun staked out in a

58:00

press release response to the time

58:02

article in which they said, quote,

58:04

the sample was contaminated by baking

58:06

and juices. This would have prevented

58:08

obtaining accurate carbon 14 dating results.

58:10

This argument is so facile that

58:13

the full weight of its flaws

58:15

escape easy cataloging. No, the baking

58:17

and teriyaki sauce would not have

58:19

interfered with carbon 14 dating. In

58:21

fact, if they had submitted the

58:23

sample for carbon-14 dating, they would

58:25

have likely discovered not only the

58:27

young age of the wood, but

58:29

that there were suspicious contaminants on

58:31

it. But of course, they had

58:33

not tested it in the first

58:35

place, not at all, not even

58:37

so much as bringing it up

58:39

to their noses for a quick

58:41

whiff, which would have instantly given

58:43

away the teriyaki sauce more readily

58:45

than any scientific process. Jim

58:47

LaPard detailed all of this, but

58:50

Sons' claim that they were working

58:52

above and beyond normal journalistic standards

58:54

also caused him to look at

58:56

other elements of the incredible discovery

58:58

of Noah's Ark. He looked at

59:01

Ed Bailing and Ed Davis, and

59:03

Fernand Navara, and found some of

59:05

the myriad weaknesses in their testimony.

59:07

He also interviewed Ark researcher Bill

59:09

Cruz, who was interviewed for the

59:12

film. He told the part that

59:14

he'd warned the producers against relying

59:16

not only on Jamal, but on

59:18

Davis and bailing too. He was

59:20

ignored and his interview was not

59:23

ultimately used in the movie. Lippard

59:25

also looked into Sun President Charles

59:27

Sellier's claim, made in that letter

59:29

to CBS, that our role is

59:32

to present all of the known

59:34

information and let the audience decide.

59:36

as well as lead producer Alan

59:38

Penderson's statement to the Los Angeles

59:40

Times that, quote, we don't take

59:43

a point of view, creationist or

59:45

otherwise. Yeah, fucking right. What LaPard

59:47

found is that of the 43

59:49

experts on screen over the course

59:51

of the documentary, fully 40 of

59:54

them were young earth creationists who

59:56

believed the arc was on error

59:58

at. The three skeptics were given

1:00:00

a couple of sentences worth of

1:00:02

straw man objections to quickly bat

1:00:05

down. And you probably won't be

1:00:07

surprised to hear that the arcs...

1:00:09

supporting experts had their qualifications exaggerated

1:00:11

and obfuscated. Most of the large

1:00:13

interviews were taken from professional archaeologists,

1:00:16

but they are never introduced that

1:00:18

way. It's never even disclosed that

1:00:20

a bunch of them work for

1:00:22

the Institute for Creation Research, whose

1:00:24

role in the production of a

1:00:27

film is still not entirely clear.

1:00:29

John Morris, the guy who first

1:00:31

interviewed George Jamal, he is identified

1:00:33

as a professor of geology. Where

1:00:35

did he hold that position? At

1:00:38

the Institute for Creation Research, an

1:00:40

institution that is not only extremely

1:00:42

unaccredited, but which he founded. His

1:00:44

actual degree is in geological engineering,

1:00:47

which may sound close enough to

1:00:49

geology, but trust me, it is

1:00:51

not. The film identifies one Dr.

1:00:53

Don Shockey as a professor of

1:00:55

anthropology. In fact, he had an

1:00:58

undergrad degree in anthropology. His doctorate

1:01:00

was in optometry. Dr. Ethel Nelson

1:01:02

is noted as a Chinese pictograph

1:01:04

linguist. She was actually a Tennessee

1:01:06

pathologist. Most galling is Carl Baw,

1:01:09

whom the incredible discovery calls a

1:01:11

paleo anthropologist. At the time of

1:01:13

filming, he was the owner of

1:01:15

the Creation Evidences Museum. a double-wide

1:01:17

trailer in Glenrose, Texas. That museum

1:01:20

was Baw's attempt to prove he'd

1:01:22

found human footprints alongside dinosaur ones

1:01:24

near the Paluxi River in Texas.

1:01:26

Baw holds a prodigious number of

1:01:28

academic degrees at the time of

1:01:31

filming at least three doctorates and

1:01:33

a couple more since then. All

1:01:35

of them are from unaccredited universities,

1:01:37

most of which were founded or

1:01:39

run by Baw. There is no

1:01:42

paper evidence to suggest he even

1:01:44

graduated high school. This shit really

1:01:46

pisses me off. Maybe too much.

1:01:48

Sure. but it's so endless. I've

1:01:51

been going on for what? Probably

1:01:53

three hours at this point, and

1:01:55

I haven't even scratched the surface

1:01:57

of the most basic question. The

1:01:59

thing about Noah's Ark that every

1:02:02

third grader eventually wonders. How is

1:02:04

one boat supposed to have held

1:02:06

two of every animal on earth?

1:02:08

There are at least millions, if

1:02:10

not billions, of species out there.

1:02:13

According to Genesis, Noah's Ark was

1:02:15

built 300 cubits long, 50 cubits

1:02:17

wide, and 30 cubits high. A

1:02:19

cubit is thought to have been

1:02:21

the length from the elbow to

1:02:24

the tip of the finger, which

1:02:26

means at the high end, one

1:02:28

is about 18 inches. That would

1:02:30

put the arc at about 450

1:02:32

feet long. Pretty big! But not

1:02:35

millions of animals big! The solution

1:02:37

offered by archaeologists to this seemingly

1:02:39

intractable problem is especially infuriating, and

1:02:41

it's briefly examined in both the

1:02:43

76 and 93 documentaries. I say

1:02:46

briefly, but I could substitute that

1:02:48

adjective out with quickly, or even

1:02:50

embarrassedly, because that's how it comes

1:02:52

off. Actually, the biblical record does

1:02:55

not say that every species of

1:02:57

animal in the world was in

1:02:59

the art. Many kinds were in

1:03:01

the ocean, whales, and marine creatures

1:03:03

of various types, and of course

1:03:06

the major insect varieties in the

1:03:08

world were not included either. From

1:03:10

studies that I and others have

1:03:12

done, we estimate there could have

1:03:14

been from 2,500 to 20,000 different

1:03:17

kinds of animals taken aboard Noah's

1:03:19

Ark. A couple thousand animals? How

1:03:21

could that be? Well, you see,

1:03:23

Noah didn't need to bring two

1:03:25

of every species of animal. just

1:03:28

every kind of animal. As one

1:03:30

interview, he explains. Each family of

1:03:32

creatures on the earth today have

1:03:34

a single pair of ancestors. For

1:03:36

example, even though there are over

1:03:39

300 varieties of dogs in the

1:03:41

world today, due to selective breeding,

1:03:43

they have a single common ancestor.

1:03:45

considering the number of kinds of

1:03:47

animals required to be put aboard

1:03:50

the arc, there would have been

1:03:52

ample room to load the ancestors

1:03:54

of all the species we know

1:03:56

today, with room left over for

1:03:58

Noah's family, food, and supplies. That's

1:04:01

evolution! Evolution! The thing that they're

1:04:03

explicitly trying to disprove by discovering

1:04:05

the arc! But that kind of

1:04:07

evolution is by natural selection over

1:04:10

billions of years. That, they say

1:04:12

is bullshit. But a... A billion

1:04:14

new species, evolving out of two

1:04:16

thousand kinds, in a couple of

1:04:18

millennia? That's cool! And how did

1:04:21

Noah feed these thousands of animals?

1:04:23

Easy. Of course, people have raised

1:04:25

that question as an objection to

1:04:27

the whole story that would be

1:04:29

just impossible to care for the

1:04:32

many thousands of animals that might

1:04:34

have been on the arc. At

1:04:36

least a reasonable possibility would be

1:04:38

that these animals had the ability

1:04:40

to hibernate as many modern animals.

1:04:43

and escape bad weather by the

1:04:45

process of just suspending most of

1:04:47

the bodily functions. Sort of a

1:04:49

dormancy. State of suspended animation almost.

1:04:51

So I just suppose that perhaps

1:04:54

as the temperature began to get

1:04:56

cold and the sky's got dark

1:04:58

and the noise of the thunder

1:05:00

and the waves and so on

1:05:02

outside, after the animals had once

1:05:05

been installed in their cages and

1:05:07

fed, but then they just sort

1:05:09

of went to sleep. Well, most

1:05:11

of the time during the year,

1:05:14

now, of course, occasionally, no one

1:05:16

in this family would have to

1:05:18

feed them, but it wouldn't necessarily

1:05:20

have been an overwhelming task where

1:05:22

they ate people on the art

1:05:25

to take care of the animals

1:05:27

when most of the time, they

1:05:29

were hibernating. Jim LaPard does a

1:05:31

pretty good job in his skeptic

1:05:33

article, noting a lot of the

1:05:36

flaws in the incredible discovery, but

1:05:38

even he can't get them all.

1:05:40

There's one that he missed that

1:05:42

really caught my eye. After the

1:05:44

especially dishonest reenactment of the Phony

1:05:47

Ross Gavitzki article, McGavin introduces Megan

1:05:49

Butler, the managing editor of a

1:05:51

publishing company, who has this to

1:05:53

say. There's been controversy about whether

1:05:55

or not there ever was a

1:05:58

Russian expedition or an arc setting

1:06:00

around the time of... 2016 or

1:06:02

1917. Our author spent 20 years

1:06:04

researching Anastasia, the last surviving member

1:06:06

of the Russian royal family. During

1:06:09

one of his personal conversations with

1:06:11

her, he was shocked when she

1:06:13

started talking about an expedition which

1:06:15

her father, the Tsar, had commissioned

1:06:18

to go to Mount Arret and

1:06:20

measure and photograph Noah's Ark. She

1:06:22

told him she'd actually seen the

1:06:24

photographs and the report from the

1:06:26

expedition. She also told him she'd

1:06:29

worn across, made from the wood

1:06:31

of Noah's Ark. The movie kind

1:06:33

of glides right over this section,

1:06:35

and it's in the middle of

1:06:37

so much other junk that you

1:06:40

might glide right over it too.

1:06:42

Jim LaPard did. But not me,

1:06:44

because I have been researching the

1:06:46

very story over which the gliding

1:06:48

is meant to happen. What does

1:06:51

she mean that her author learned

1:06:53

about this while interviewing Anastasia? Anastasia

1:06:55

was murdered by the Bolsheviks in

1:06:57

1918, an event the filmmakers surely

1:06:59

recall, given that they say that

1:07:02

those same Bolsheviks took power before

1:07:04

the Raskovitsky expedition concluded and suppressed

1:07:06

its results. By their own timeline,

1:07:08

the story makes no sense. There

1:07:10

were rumors. Really, terrifically sad rumors,

1:07:13

if you ask me, that Anastasia

1:07:15

had survived the Bolsheviks and disappeared.

1:07:17

But her remains were found in

1:07:19

1991. Two years before this documentary

1:07:21

was released. So, who was Butler's

1:07:24

author talking to? Well, I know,

1:07:26

because I have been working on

1:07:28

a story about her. A woman

1:07:30

named Anna Anderson, who for decades

1:07:33

claimed to be Anastasia. Either because

1:07:35

she was a con artist, or

1:07:37

because she was mentally ill, maybe

1:07:39

both. None of this makes sense.

1:07:41

None of this adds up, and

1:07:44

the filmmakers used it anyway. Not

1:07:46

only that, but they glossed over

1:07:48

all the stuff that would make

1:07:50

their audience say, wait, what? Because

1:07:52

they knew it was suspect. And

1:07:55

that gets to the root of

1:07:57

what grinds my gears about these

1:07:59

archaeologists. They have a demonstrated and

1:08:01

clear disregard for the truth that

1:08:03

takes a particularly poisonous... form. Dwayne

1:08:06

Gish, the infamous creationist debater who

1:08:08

originally inspired George Jamal to perpetrate

1:08:10

his hoax, well he's best remembered

1:08:12

for what anthropologist Eugenie Scott called

1:08:14

the Gish Gallup. In debates, rather

1:08:17

than present a single strong argument

1:08:19

in favor of creationism, Gish would

1:08:21

vomit forth a seemingly endless string

1:08:23

of them as fast as he

1:08:25

could without regard for whether they'd

1:08:28

been disproven or if they were

1:08:30

even real arguments in the first

1:08:32

place. This left those he was

1:08:34

debating at a loss, as they

1:08:37

attempted to put out hundreds of

1:08:39

little fires instead of focusing on

1:08:41

their own points. It is a

1:08:43

particularly invidious form of debate. To

1:08:45

people who know the subject at

1:08:48

hand well, it's fairly easy to

1:08:50

recognize a gish gallop for what

1:08:52

it is, but the point of

1:08:54

most debates isn't to appeal to

1:08:56

people who know the subject at

1:08:59

hand very well. and for the

1:09:01

uninitiated or the uninformed or the

1:09:03

casual observer, the sheer number of

1:09:05

arguments seems to indicate a strong

1:09:07

position instead of a weak one.

1:09:10

The underlying principle of the traditional

1:09:12

Gish Gallup also belies the weakness

1:09:14

of Gish's position. He couldn't actually

1:09:16

present compelling proof of creationism, couldn't

1:09:18

create a positive hypothesis, but he

1:09:21

was working under the fallacy that

1:09:23

if he could just put one

1:09:25

nick in evolution, it would topple.

1:09:27

and then creationism would naturally climb

1:09:29

atop its prone body. Archaeology works

1:09:32

along the inverse lines, and in

1:09:34

The Incredible Discovery of Noah's Ark,

1:09:36

the filmmakers make that explicit. We

1:09:38

can choose to believe that all

1:09:40

of these reports are based upon

1:09:43

lies, or based upon the information

1:09:45

presented by the eyewitness accounts. We

1:09:47

can choose to believe that the

1:09:49

arc, or some large wooden barge,

1:09:52

is on Mount Ararat. If just

1:09:54

one of these reports is true.

1:09:56

It doesn't matter whether any one

1:09:58

account is true. It doesn't even

1:10:00

matter if they know anyone account.

1:10:03

isn't true. By presenting dozens of

1:10:05

weak cases instead of one strong

1:10:07

one, they're taking a shotgun to

1:10:09

a scalpel fight. And what's worse

1:10:11

is that it works. Even actual

1:10:14

archaeologists into the 1980s, faced with

1:10:16

the overwhelming number of bullshit accounts

1:10:18

of the arc, offered concessions. Until

1:10:20

the 1840 earthquake, there'd been a

1:10:22

monastery on the lower part of

1:10:25

Iraq, you'll remember. So, some scholars...

1:10:27

conjectured that somewhere along the line,

1:10:29

those monks might have built an

1:10:31

altar or temple higher up in

1:10:33

honor of the place they believed

1:10:36

Noah's Ark came to rest. Perhaps

1:10:38

timbers from that altar were what

1:10:40

people were occasionally citing on the

1:10:42

peak. But they weren't. The reports

1:10:44

are all bullshit, all the way

1:10:47

from top to bottom. Heaping bullshit

1:10:49

upon bullshit doesn't make the bullshit

1:10:51

more worthy of consideration, it just

1:10:53

makes it smell worse. Since

1:10:56

the 1950s, there have been literally

1:10:59

thousands of climbers on Aerorat. Perhaps

1:11:01

tens of thousands. Not to mention

1:11:03

the planes, and the satellites, and

1:11:06

the helicopters. And not a single,

1:11:08

reliable blip, indicating there's anything up

1:11:10

there, other than some abandoned snowskis

1:11:12

and a couple of old wooden

1:11:15

crosses, which were carried there by

1:11:17

earlier climbers searching for and failing

1:11:19

to find Noah's Ark. Yet,

1:11:25

the archaeologists persist, and in their

1:11:27

persistence, they continue to restate all

1:11:30

the old stories, which they know

1:11:32

have been disproven. And they keep

1:11:34

shoveling more bullshit on top of

1:11:36

that. In 2004, Hong Kong-based Noah's

1:11:38

Ark Ministries International, who run a

1:11:41

full-sized Ark recreation theme park, announced

1:11:43

that they had found the Ark.

1:11:45

Over the next decade and a

1:11:47

half, they released some grainy footage

1:11:49

and a lot of excuses, along

1:11:52

with a couple of profitable documentaries

1:11:54

of their own. Not to mention,

1:11:56

of course, the fucking theme part...

1:11:58

One of several run by fundamentalist

1:12:01

Christians around the world for purely

1:12:03

altruistic and spiritual purposes, I'm sure.

1:12:05

If that's not enough to piss

1:12:07

you off, then there's this. In

1:12:09

the wake of Noah's Ark Ministries

1:12:12

International's announcement, a 47-year-old born-again Christian

1:12:14

from Scotland named Donald McKenzie. decided

1:12:16

to go to Ararat to find

1:12:18

the arc for himself, believing that

1:12:20

God called him to bring proof

1:12:23

of the arc to the world,

1:12:25

and by that proof of the

1:12:27

truth of his faith. Nami never

1:12:29

divulged where on Ararat they supposedly

1:12:31

found the arc, which is not

1:12:34

at all suspicious, so McKenzie spent

1:12:36

most of the next decade spending

1:12:38

every red cent he had trying

1:12:40

to locate it. In November of

1:12:43

2010, he disappeared while on the

1:12:45

mountain alone. Whether he fell... or

1:12:47

got sick or was killed, a

1:12:49

distinct if distant possibility, no one

1:12:51

can say, because his body has

1:12:54

never been found. David Balsicker, the

1:12:56

writer and producer most responsible for

1:12:58

the incredible discovery, was a bullshitter.

1:13:00

I mean, he might have been

1:13:02

a nice guy, good husband, loving

1:13:05

father for all I know, but

1:13:07

professionally, he was a bullshitter. When

1:13:09

he told the Los Angeles Times

1:13:11

that he was making entertainment and

1:13:13

didn't feel any obligation to be

1:13:16

truthful, and okay, that's not exactly

1:13:18

what he said, but I think

1:13:20

it's the spirit, he was being

1:13:22

honest. He made a lifelong career

1:13:24

of peddling crank nonsense in books

1:13:27

and movies. From Abraham Lincoln assassination

1:13:29

conspiracy theories, to a follow-up to

1:13:31

The Secret, to books about where

1:13:33

to eat, near the Orange County

1:13:36

Airport, he was just following the

1:13:38

money. And he identified the fundamentalist

1:13:40

Christian right as a damn good

1:13:42

source of it. Making movies and

1:13:44

writing books about the apocalypse and

1:13:47

the power of prayer and near-death

1:13:49

experiences and whatever else. He ghost

1:13:51

wrote several biographies for grifting born-again

1:13:53

Christians who claimed to have escaped

1:13:55

the clutches of satanic cults. Two

1:13:58

of... whom were exposed publicly as

1:14:00

frauds even before the satanic ritual

1:14:02

abuse hysteria broke. I doubt he

1:14:04

lost sleep over any of that.

1:14:06

And I doubt he believed any

1:14:09

of the crap he stuffed into

1:14:11

his Noah's Ark documentary beyond his

1:14:13

deep and abiding belief that it

1:14:15

would make money. I have my

1:14:18

suspicions that Fernandez Nivara was just

1:14:20

in the racket for a quick

1:14:22

buck too. Balsiger ghost wrote one

1:14:24

of his books, by the way.

1:14:26

Most everyone else in this story,

1:14:29

however, I reckon are high on

1:14:31

their own supply. I don't think

1:14:33

they know better. Don't get me

1:14:35

wrong though. They should know better.

1:14:37

They have everything they need to

1:14:40

know better. They have made a

1:14:42

series of conscious, deliberate decisions so

1:14:44

that they can continue not to

1:14:46

know better. They dress their willful,

1:14:48

almost violent ignorance up as a

1:14:51

virtue, as faith, as highest dedication,

1:14:53

as a brave pursuit of truth

1:14:55

in the face of a system

1:14:57

out to destroy them. But it

1:14:59

is the exact opposite. They're cowards,

1:15:02

unwilling to look anything that might

1:15:04

discomfort them in the face for

1:15:06

a second. And that would be

1:15:08

one thing, if they weren't also

1:15:11

doing everything they can to evangelize

1:15:13

that cowardice, and sell movies, and

1:15:15

books, and theme parks, and whatever

1:15:17

else while they do it. Ironically,

1:15:19

people like LaHé are also the

1:15:22

same people who've spent decades to

1:15:24

crying moral relativism, moaning about the

1:15:26

decay of societal standards and epistemological

1:15:28

certitude. All the while, their intellectual

1:15:30

dishonesty and the tricks of their

1:15:33

trade, like the Gish Gallup, have

1:15:35

done more to a road authority

1:15:37

and evidence and reason than a

1:15:39

million daritas. Look, we all make

1:15:41

our own choices. I'm not going

1:15:44

to hold Errolan Violet Cummings responsible

1:15:46

for the one Donald McKenzie made

1:15:48

to go to Errat. I don't

1:15:50

think that would be fair or

1:15:53

honest. But we do make our

1:15:55

choices in the face of the

1:15:57

information available to us. And the

1:15:59

archaeology movement, along with the flood

1:16:01

geology, it hopes to bolster, have...

1:16:04

to a distressing degree, poisoned the

1:16:06

information available to a whole lot

1:16:08

of people. And that definitely includes

1:16:10

Donald McKenzie, as well as my

1:16:12

elementary Sunday school teacher. But no,

1:16:15

neither of them are fundamentalisms victims.

1:16:17

Truth is. Music

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time, from Chicago, Illinois, birthplace of

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1:17:07

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1:17:09

didn't know that, but there it

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is, University of Chicago Humanist Manifesto,

1:17:14

1933. This has been, the constant.

1:18:27

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