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0:22

me show you a video first. The

0:25

death toll has surpassed 20,000. In

0:27

Gaza City, at least 17 people

0:29

were killed while waiting for a

0:31

humanitarian aid delivery at a major

0:34

intersection. The Hamas-run Health Ministry

0:36

in Gaza has announced that

0:38

more than 30,000 Palestinians have

0:40

been killed. It is unacceptable

0:42

that seven humanitarian workers were

0:45

killed trying to help people in

0:47

Gaza. So somebody decided to make

0:49

a kids book about that. Wow.

0:51

Okay, but the guy brave enough

0:54

to do that is unsurprising. He's

0:56

Reza Aslan. He's the number one

0:58

New York Times bestseller of Zella,

1:00

the Life and Times of Jesus

1:03

of Nazareth. He had quite a

1:05

controversy on his CNN show, Believer.

1:07

He's done a work with CBS,

1:09

HBO, he's P-body nominated, and Emmy

1:11

nominated. So Reza, welcome brother.

1:14

Thank you, my friend. It's nice

1:16

to see you. Okay. All right,

1:18

so what are you nuts? What

1:20

are you doing? Kids book about

1:22

Israel and Palestine. Okay, so tell

1:24

me why you did it and

1:26

what's in it? Well, look, part

1:28

of this had to do with

1:31

the fact that I myself am

1:33

a father of four kids ranging

1:35

from ages four to 12. And

1:37

they're inundated at school around their

1:40

friends. They, you know, see it

1:42

in videos on the news. There

1:44

is confused as everybody else about

1:46

what's going on in Gaza and

1:49

worse than that they also what they

1:51

hear a lot is the

1:53

kind of misinformation and the

1:55

dehumanizing rhetoric that is sometimes

1:57

thrown around on both sides.

2:00

about the other. And what I wanted

2:02

to do was give them a sense of

2:04

how we got to where we

2:06

are now in a very simple,

2:08

easy to understand way without trying

2:11

to cast blame on one side

2:13

or the other or to simply

2:15

state that one side is fully

2:17

at fault against another. And then

2:19

most importantly, what I really wanted

2:21

to do was to use this

2:23

conflict, the history of this conflict

2:26

as a learning tool, not as

2:28

a way of saying, oh, I'm

2:30

going to tell you how we're

2:32

going to fix this conflict between

2:34

Israel and Palestine,

2:36

but rather what you can learn

2:39

from it. And this kind of

2:41

superpower that I think that kids

2:43

have, their ability to empathize with

2:45

other people, it's a power that

2:47

I think a lot of adults

2:49

tend to lose after a while,

2:51

but kids have this ability, this

2:53

always see both sides of an

2:55

argument. They know what's fair. They

2:57

know what's just and right. And

3:00

so I just figured if you

3:02

could give them the sort of

3:04

the history of this conflict in

3:06

an easy way to understand, then

3:08

you know, they'll be in a

3:10

much more powerful place as they

3:12

grow older to be the generation

3:14

that maybe could do something about

3:16

it. So Reza, I read the

3:18

book and it is accurate,

3:20

it is truthful, it is

3:22

simple and easy to understand.

3:24

That's why I can't imagine it

3:27

not being attacked. So I don't

3:29

know if you, you know, if

3:31

it's out enough for people to

3:33

have consumed and attacked you yet,

3:35

but see, let me give you

3:37

an example. So you say that

3:39

when Israel was originally formed, you

3:41

know, the Palestinians were mad because

3:44

they... got about half the land

3:46

a little bit under half the

3:48

land when they were when Jewish

3:50

people at the time were about

3:53

a third of the population. So

3:55

that's true but doesn't necessarily

3:58

fit the narrative of the Israeli

4:00

side. And now they have way more

4:02

than half the land, and the land

4:04

that the Palestinians are gonna have keep

4:06

shrinking. Those things are all indisputably true,

4:08

but does not fit the narrative of

4:10

at least the zealots on the Israeli

4:12

side. So

4:15

I mean, I imagine that they're gonna

4:17

say, okay, we all agree Reza's

4:19

book is honest and true. So go

4:21

ahead, everybody buy this book.

4:23

You see what I'm saying? Yeah,

4:25

no, I'm definitely kidding it

4:27

from both sides. You know, what

4:29

I really wanted to do

4:31

when I was writing this book

4:33

was I wanted to make

4:35

sure that I had a lot

4:37

of people from all walks

4:39

of life, Jews and Muslims, Israelis,

4:41

Palestinians, peace activists, people who

4:43

work with interfaith issues. I had

4:45

everyone read it and I

4:47

took a lot of their notes.

4:49

But in the end, what

4:51

I couldn't help but

4:53

notice is that the

4:55

notes I kept getting more

4:57

or less could be

5:00

summarized by you're being too

5:02

fair to the other

5:04

side. That you're being

5:06

too pro -Palestinian or too pro -Israel. And

5:08

you know, I did go in

5:10

there and massage some of the language

5:12

a little bit. I mean, there

5:14

were some trigger words that I thought,

5:17

you know, could be massaged a

5:19

little bit. But in the end,

5:21

what I kind of came

5:23

to realize is that

5:25

if both sides are complaining

5:27

that the book is too pro

5:29

the other side, then maybe

5:31

it's just right. And so I

5:33

think that's what I was

5:35

going for. But I also didn't

5:37

want to shy away from

5:39

some very big issues. I talk

5:41

about the Holocaust in the

5:43

book. I talk about the Nakba

5:45

in the book. I talk

5:47

about settlements and what they are

5:49

doing to the Palestinian people.

5:51

I talk about the Palestinian terrorism.

5:54

I mean, those issues are

5:56

not washed away by any means. And

5:58

again, I do think that children.

6:00

have the complexity and the

6:02

sophistication to understand these issues. And

6:04

then also, let's just be honest

6:07

here, yes, it is a kid's

6:09

book about Israel and Palestine, but

6:11

frankly it's as much for the

6:14

parents as it is for the

6:16

kids. I mean, let's face it,

6:18

most parents don't understand. what's going

6:21

on here. And the best comments

6:23

that I've gotten so far from

6:25

readers has come from parents who

6:28

have said this is the first

6:30

time I understood what's been going

6:32

on for the last at this

6:35

point seven decades. Yeah, look, that's

6:37

actually totally true. If all you

6:39

did was take out 10-15 minutes

6:41

to read this book, you'd get

6:44

caught up on what happened with

6:46

Israel and Palestine really effectively,

6:48

really quickly. It gives you

6:50

the essence of what happened from

6:53

both sides and look, obviously, anybody

6:55

that's seen me arguing the case,

6:57

whether it's on the young Turks

6:59

or in other places like Pierce

7:01

Morgan and all the other, you

7:03

know, dozens of places that I've

7:05

done debates, you know that I

7:07

have a very clear opinion on

7:10

it, but Reza did not color

7:12

anything. Those are actual facts,

7:14

right? And there's no dispute

7:16

about. I think there's no real dispute

7:18

about the facts that are in

7:20

Reza's book. If you're a zealot

7:23

on either side, you're going to

7:25

dispute no matter what. But in fact,

7:27

Reza, that brings me to not just,

7:29

hey, did the right wing Israeli guy

7:31

think this, did the, you know, the

7:33

zealot on the Palestinian side think that,

7:36

but people that are considered so-called,

7:38

you know, legitimate sources, like

7:40

the New York Times, intercept

7:42

broke his story today. explaining

7:44

the New York Times won't

7:46

call to occupy territories, occupy

7:48

territories, because I guess because

7:51

it would hurt Israel's feelings. But so

7:53

what do you do in a world

7:55

where they say the objective thing is

7:57

to not call things what they actually

7:59

are? And by the way, they

8:01

also don't call refugee camps,

8:04

refugee camps, if they're regarding

8:06

Palestinians. Everybody else gets to be

8:08

a refugee, but not the Palestinians.

8:10

So what happens when the New

8:12

York Times says, I won't say

8:15

things that are true. And if

8:17

you're saying things that are true

8:19

in your book, then we might

8:21

criticize it. Yeah, the paper of

8:24

record, no less. This is a

8:26

widespread problem across the media. Let's

8:28

be honest. The mainstream media is.

8:31

functioning from a position in which

8:33

even today, and although I

8:35

will say the pendulum has

8:38

swung a little bit, but

8:40

even today, the position seems

8:43

to be that Israel is

8:45

the legitimate national narratives and

8:48

that the Palestinians are essentially

8:50

interlopers. They are essentially interrupting.

8:52

the national narrative of Israel.

8:55

And I think that was

8:57

the biggest challenge in this

9:00

book was to say that,

9:02

look, there's a million ways

9:05

to talk about this

9:07

conflict. But at its

9:09

core, we have to

9:11

understand that fundamentally there

9:13

are two. absolutely valid

9:15

national narratives here. The

9:17

story that Israel tells

9:19

of this conflict, and

9:21

the story that Palestine

9:23

tells of this conflict,

9:25

they both are obviously

9:27

coming from vastly different

9:29

points of view, but

9:31

they are both equally

9:33

important, equally legitimate. And is

9:35

there a way to lay them

9:37

both out without judgment? Not to

9:39

say that, okay, now that we've done

9:42

this, let's figure out how to fix

9:44

this problem because, I mean,

9:46

you and I have had conversations

9:48

about this, I'm not sure what

9:50

the fix to this problem possibly

9:53

could be, though I have some

9:55

ideas, but more importantly, the

9:57

book is a challenge to

9:59

change. children, and frankly, their

10:01

parents. Can you

10:03

see the legitimacy of the

10:05

other side? Because if you can,

10:07

then that means that you

10:10

have what it takes to be

10:12

a peacemaker, that you have

10:14

the power of empathy, that you

10:16

could understand that both sides

10:18

have reason to be afraid of

10:20

the other. Both sides have

10:22

done many, many things wrong, but

10:24

that unless we're willing to put that

10:26

aside and move forward and to

10:28

recognize what Israelis and Palestinians fundamentally have

10:30

in common with each other, then

10:33

we'll never get to a place where

10:35

this conflict can be reasonably dealt

10:37

with. Yeah, especially for

10:39

us in America, because we're the

10:41

ones who get the decide, are we

10:43

going to send them $4 billion

10:45

a year, $14 billion for more weapons,

10:47

etc. And are we going to

10:49

push for a two -state solution or

10:51

are we not going to do that?

10:53

And so look, I especially appreciated what

10:55

you did because we do it

10:57

on the show all the time

11:00

too. Hey, what if the shoe's

11:02

on the other foot? And there's

11:04

caricatures on both sides. So some

11:06

on the Palestinian side will say,

11:08

my God, the Zionists just wanted

11:10

to grab the land, etc. No,

11:12

brothers and sisters, there was a

11:14

Holocaust, and they suffered

11:16

greatly in it, and they did

11:18

want to save Haven. Now,

11:21

that doesn't mean that they did everything

11:23

right, right? And

11:26

they genuinely wanted that. It wasn't

11:28

just to come steal your

11:30

land because they're Zionist, etc, etc.

11:32

And for the Israeli side,

11:34

you really think the Palestinians are

11:36

the Nazis? Are you insane?

11:38

They have almost no power at

11:40

all. And finally, that gets

11:42

to the one

11:45

more thing I want to discuss with you, Reza, which

11:47

is that I've been asking this on social

11:49

media and the answers are so interesting. Is

11:51

Israel David or Goliath? Because

11:54

it shows you how differently

11:56

both sides view it. You

12:00

know, the Israeli side goes, what

12:02

do you mean? Obviously we're David.

12:04

The star of David is on

12:06

our flag. Where the tiny, tiny,

12:08

little countries surrounded by enemies were

12:11

so weak and small and, oh

12:13

my God, we're about to be

12:15

wiped out any second. And part

12:17

of that is PTSD from the

12:19

Holocaust, because they almost did get

12:21

wiped out, right? And the other

12:24

side goes, are you insane? You

12:26

have one of the biggest militaries

12:28

in the world, in the history

12:30

of the world, you're backed up

12:32

by the greatest military in the

12:35

history of the world, right? And

12:37

the reality is, yeah, I can

12:39

see why they both see it

12:41

that way, even though there is

12:43

a correct answer. You see what

12:45

I'm saying? Yeah, and listen, as

12:48

simple as this sounds, the very...

12:50

ability to just see. I see

12:52

why they would think themselves, David,

12:54

and I would see why others

12:56

would think of them as Goliath.

12:59

Just that ability alone is so

13:01

revolutionary. especially in the United States,

13:03

because listen, you know, we have

13:05

this view of this crisis, particularly

13:07

because of the overwhelming evangelical Christian

13:09

population of the United States, as

13:12

not a conflict over land or

13:14

sovereignty or politics, that this is

13:16

instead a conflict over whether the

13:18

word of God is true or

13:20

not, that this is a conflict

13:22

over whether the word of God

13:25

is true or not, that this

13:27

is a aren't people on the

13:29

ground fighting against each other to

13:31

figure out how to split this

13:33

land, but this is a cosmic

13:36

battle taking place in the heavens

13:38

between the forces of good and

13:40

evil? Well, what you talk about

13:42

any conflict in those terms, that

13:44

is an unfixible conflict. There is

13:46

no compromise. if what's at stake

13:49

is good versus evil, there's no

13:51

way to kind of, you know,

13:53

split the difference, if you will,

13:55

when we're talking about good and

13:57

evil, that kind of rhetoric is

14:00

why we're in the situation that

14:02

we're in now. And so the

14:04

first challenge of this book is not

14:06

to ignore the fact that there

14:08

are some very serious religious issues

14:11

involved here and I talk a

14:13

lot about that, you know, the

14:15

religious importance of this place that

14:17

we call the Holy Land, but

14:20

then to strip it of its

14:22

religious significance and bring it down

14:24

to issues and grievances that we

14:27

can understand and actually deal with

14:29

because these grievances are real. They

14:31

are legitimate. And they fuel an

14:33

enormous amount of anger, hatred, and

14:36

worst of all, radicalization on

14:38

both sides. This war in

14:40

Gaza is a perfect example

14:42

of this. I mean, I

14:45

understand that Netanyahu's

14:47

stated goal is to wipe

14:49

out Hamas, but his own

14:52

military says that's impossible. We're

14:54

not going to do that.

14:56

Meanwhile... what is happening because

14:59

of the death of now

15:01

30,000 individuals, two-thirds of whom

15:04

are women and children in

15:06

Gaza, now you are creating

15:09

yet another generation of dispossessed,

15:11

angry, legitimately angry, and radicalized

15:14

youth that is going to

15:16

push the hope of any kind

15:18

of compromise in this region

15:20

off for another generation or more.

15:23

And you were right. The

15:25

United States is the 500

15:27

pound gorilla in the room. And

15:29

so it is going to be

15:31

Americans who are going to force

15:34

our politicians to make the, to

15:36

put the pressure necessary on Israel's

15:38

very right wing government to make

15:41

the sacrifices that are going to

15:43

be necessary in order to lead

15:45

to any kind of solution to

15:48

this conflict. And you know, last

15:50

thing that I'll just say is. A

15:52

little hopeful comment here. I

15:54

feel like it's happening. You

15:57

know this as well as

15:59

I do. Benjamin has really

16:01

swung in this country when it

16:03

comes to our views of the

16:05

Israeli-Palestinian conflict. I remember when I

16:07

was first writing about this conflict,

16:09

it was hard to find anyone

16:11

who didn't just believe that Israel

16:13

right or wrong, Israel can do

16:15

whatever it wants to, Israel is

16:17

the chosen people, they're the ones

16:19

who are, you know, the legitimate

16:21

occupiers of this land, etc., etc.,

16:23

etc. I don't hear that as

16:25

often anymore and even more fascinatingly.

16:27

I hear it. less

16:30

and less from America's

16:32

evangelicals, particularly younger evangelicals,

16:34

who no longer see

16:37

this conflict through that

16:39

biblical lens, but who see

16:41

it properly through the lens of

16:43

you know, what Jesus would

16:45

do, right? Like, which side

16:48

in this conflict would Jesus

16:50

be on, the side of

16:53

the massive military occupation or

16:55

the side of the person

16:58

being occupied and whose rights

17:00

and privileges are being denied?

17:03

It's a pretty simple question

17:05

to answer, if you ask.

17:07

So Reza, that's exactly what we

17:10

talked about on the young

17:12

Turks earlier today, because Reverend

17:14

Hayy, or Pastor Hayy, whatever

17:16

his name is, for Christians

17:18

United for Israel, was saying

17:20

that we should level Gaza

17:22

and that Jesus would want

17:24

us to destroy them. Yes,

17:26

Jesus would want us to

17:28

massacre a million people, mostly

17:30

women and children. That's what

17:32

Jesus would want. Yeah, I

17:34

mean, and he's pretending that

17:36

Jesus was not the prince of

17:38

peace, but wanted death and destruction, etc.

17:40

It's just, it's amazing to see with

17:42

your own eyes, but I totally agree

17:45

with you, pendulum is swinging, a lot

17:47

of the right wing is not in

17:49

that camp anymore, and they're not in

17:51

the camp of let's do endless wars

17:53

on behalf of Israel or anyone else,

17:55

the Neocans, the oil companies, etc. The

17:57

media coverage has been a little bit

17:59

more fair. in this conflict, which

18:01

is amazing. And I'll end

18:03

on this. And

18:05

to the audience, you

18:07

don't have to agree

18:10

with the one side

18:12

in order to understand them. So for

18:14

example, I

18:16

know that Israel is Goliath.

18:18

In this scenario, they are

18:20

not David, in my opinion.

18:22

They are definitely Goliath. Factually

18:24

speaking, militarily speaking, there's no

18:26

question they're Goliath. But I understand

18:29

why they think they're David. And that's

18:31

still important, so that you could begin

18:33

to communicate in a way that addresses

18:35

their concerns and gets you to a

18:37

meeting of the minds so we could

18:39

finally get the peace. Does

18:41

that make sense to you, Reza? 100%.

18:44

I mean, that's exactly, that's the entire

18:46

thesis of the book is, you might

18:48

have your own ideas. You may have

18:51

your own views of this conflict. But

18:53

can you just for a moment, put

18:56

yourself in the other

18:58

shoes and understand how they might

19:00

look at this? And when

19:02

you do, then

19:04

it, that's it. That's it. That's

19:06

the first step to figuring

19:08

out what to do with this conflict.

19:10

And it's a step that, unfortunately, our

19:12

own political leaders, both in the Congress

19:14

and even in the White House, seem to

19:16

have a very difficult time doing. Yeah.

19:19

And you might be able to take that first step

19:21

if you read a kid's book about Israel and

19:24

Palestine. Reza Aslan, thank you for

19:26

joining us again. Appreciate it, brother. Anytime,

19:28

my friend.