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to upgrade your selling today. Very

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concept that you

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can't watch fictional

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characters beek in

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a despicable manner

0:32

is incredibly infantilizing.

0:35

So you can't

0:38

even dictionally depict

0:40

bad people because it's

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bad? So what are

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we left with at

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that point? These

0:55

bad people are bad people.

0:58

If you have a

1:00

problem with that, I don't

1:02

know, watch something else. So

1:20

I have no shirt on.

1:22

I'm throwing up the devil

1:24

signs. I have a bright

1:26

orange visor cocked to the

1:28

size, sticking my tongue out,

1:30

and on my tongue is

1:32

a huge pile of chewed

1:34

Doritos. Hey, welcome to The

1:36

Create Unknown, the home of

1:39

Make Something. Mean Something.

1:41

I am Kevin Leber,

1:43

and it's gonna be

1:45

Story Time. Today. on the

1:47

create unknown. Something happened recently

1:50

that it's a strange thing when

1:52

something just triggers a memory you

1:54

hadn't thought about in a long

1:56

time and that happened for me

1:58

this week because I saw

2:00

this scathing criticism of this

2:03

new iteration of David Mamets,

2:05

Glenn Gary Glenn Ross, which

2:07

is performing right now, I

2:09

guess, with really a killer

2:11

lineup. It's Kieran Kalkin, Bilber,

2:13

and Bob Odenkirk. And first

2:16

of all, I'm a huge

2:18

Bob Odenkirk fan from the

2:20

Mr. Show Days. If you've

2:22

never watched Mr. Show, which

2:24

you probably haven't, because it's

2:27

just... I don't even know

2:29

if it's a, is it

2:31

even on HBO Max? Can

2:33

you watch Mr. Show on

2:35

Max? I mean, it was

2:37

an HBO show, so you

2:40

would think, but I mean,

2:42

with them, you never know

2:44

what they're actually putting on

2:46

streaming. You know, they killed

2:48

Looney Tunes, which if Looney

2:51

Tunes gets the X, then,

2:53

you know, nothing is safe.

2:55

But if you have the

2:57

opportunity to watch Mr. Show,

2:59

which was a sketch comedy.

3:01

from David Cross and Bob

3:04

Odenkirk in the mid-90s, I

3:06

want to say, like, I

3:08

don't know, 95 to 98

3:10

or something like that. Watch

3:12

that, because that show was

3:15

ridiculously, ridiculously funny and had

3:17

so many ingenious skits that

3:19

I think probably really hold

3:21

up today. Anyway, I saw

3:23

this critique of Glenn Gary

3:26

Glenn Ross that was complaining.

3:28

about the language used in

3:30

the play and how essentially

3:32

the way that the characters

3:34

speak with each other and

3:36

the types of words and

3:39

the language that they use,

3:41

you know, in our modern

3:43

times is not very palatable,

3:45

basically, and questioning, I guess,

3:47

whether the play, which I

3:50

think was originally debuted in

3:52

like 1984, you know, should

3:54

be... updated for the sensibilities

3:56

of modern times. You know,

3:58

that was generally the... the

4:00

crux of the article. Now,

4:03

first of all, this is

4:05

such an idiotic thing to

4:07

think for a lot of

4:09

reasons. And then I'll tell

4:11

you my personal story that

4:14

this reminded me of. But

4:16

to begin with, like, the

4:18

very concept that, you know,

4:20

you can't watch fictional characters

4:22

speak in a despicable manner

4:25

because it will be offensive

4:27

to you is... incredibly infantilizing. I

4:29

mean, imagine, I was thinking about this earlier

4:31

today, I was thinking, I don't think it's

4:33

a stretch to be like, you know, Skeletor

4:36

is too much of a bad guy. You

4:38

know, Skeletor just does, he's so mean. Why

4:40

is Skeletor so mean to he man? You

4:42

know, I really think that Skeletor should be

4:45

updated for modern audiences because... you know, kids

4:47

watching he man will get the wrong idea.

4:49

Maybe they'll start acting like Skellitor, or now

4:51

we're normalizing Skellitor's evil behavior. Like, okay, what?

4:54

You know, the very point of depicting despicable

4:56

characters is that you recognize that their behavior

4:58

is wrong, that their behavior is gross. and

5:00

unsavory and despicable and that's why they're bad

5:03

people. So you can't even fictionally depict bad

5:05

people anymore because it's bad? Like that is

5:07

such... So what are we left with at

5:10

that point? Just care bears? And we'll just

5:12

watch care bears for the rest of time.

5:14

Everything will just be like spiritually... you know,

5:16

in addition to care bears where everybody's just

5:19

kind and polite and speaks the proper way

5:21

that the, you know, polite society allows for,

5:23

and that's the only fiction that we should

5:25

be allowed to consume because other... You know,

5:28

we might disrupt our sensibilities or get the

5:30

wrong idea or laugh at the wrong jokes

5:32

for the wrong reasons. Don't laugh for the

5:34

wrong reasons. I mean, talk about like a

5:37

nanny state idea or a school marm idea.

5:39

So it's just an idiotic way of interacting

5:41

with fiction. And like I said, an infantilized

5:43

way of interacting with fiction. in Glenn Gary

5:46

Glenn Ross are depraved manipulative sociopaths basically. So

5:48

if you're not familiar, first of all, you

5:50

know, I've just recommended Mr. Show, let me

5:52

also recommend Glenn Gary Glenn Ross, the film,

5:55

which was made, I don't know, the early

5:57

90s, maybe early, I want to say early

5:59

90s. That movie should be pretty readily available

6:01

on streaming. I'm sure that you can watch

6:04

Glenn Gary Glenn Ross somewhere. It's definitely one

6:06

of those movies that you've seen the influences

6:08

of elsewhere and maybe when you watch it

6:10

you're like, oh, that's where they got this

6:13

from. So like I'm pretty sure the character

6:15

of Gil on The Simpsons is... inspired by

6:17

Jack Lemon's character in Glenn Gary Glenn Ross.

6:20

That like bumbling salesman who can't do anything

6:22

right and he's just like a wilting flower

6:24

buffoon who's like overly anxious and concerned with

6:26

everything. So if you know the character Gil

6:29

from The Simpsons, I am nearly positive that

6:31

that comes from Jack Lemon's character and Glenn

6:33

Gary Glenn Ross. But if you haven't seen

6:35

the film, which is based on a play,

6:38

so the movie itself is essentially a bottle

6:40

film. Well, so a bottle film is just

6:42

a type of movie that pretty much just

6:44

takes place in one location. Alien is kind

6:47

of a bottle film. I think a lot

6:49

of... horror movies or

6:51

bottle films. They don't

6:53

have big budgets. They

6:56

don't have a bunch

6:58

of locations. So you

7:00

just have like a

7:02

house, you know, like

7:05

a night of the

7:07

living dead, you know,

7:09

everything just takes place

7:11

in that house and

7:14

they're trying to survive.

7:16

So Glenn, Glenn Gary

7:18

Glenn Ross takes place

7:20

primarily in one office.

7:23

I think there are

7:25

scenes in like a

7:27

Chinese restaurant too, but

7:30

it's mostly just in

7:32

this office where there

7:34

are these like scummy

7:36

real estate agents who

7:39

are trying to sell

7:41

time shares to like

7:43

unsuspecting hapless marks basically.

7:45

The whole point of

7:48

it is that these

7:50

guys are really trying

7:52

to pull one over

7:54

on the people that

7:57

they're trying to sell

7:59

these. I'm pretty sure

8:01

that they're time shares,

8:03

you know, like the

8:06

rental property sort of

8:08

thing. And they're going

8:10

to fire someone and

8:12

they're having like a

8:15

contest and like whoever

8:17

sells the most brings

8:19

in the most sales

8:21

is going to win

8:24

and they're going to

8:26

get a car or

8:28

something like that. It's

8:30

been a while since

8:33

I watched the movie.

8:35

The movie is incredible

8:37

though. So definitely watch

8:40

that highly, highly, highly,

8:42

you know, a few

8:44

podcasts ago I was

8:46

complaining about movies. I

8:49

didn't talk about ones

8:51

that are good. Well,

8:53

here's one that's good.

8:55

Watch Glenn Gary Glenn

8:58

Ross. The cast is

9:00

incredible. It's Jack Lemon,

9:02

Al Pacino, Kevin Spacey

9:04

and and Alec Baldwin

9:07

and Alec Baldwin's character,

9:09

which I just read

9:11

earlier was added just

9:13

for the film. I

9:16

guess that character is

9:18

not in the play.

9:20

Holy cow. I cannot

9:22

believe that character is

9:25

not in the play

9:27

because his his appearance

9:29

in this film is

9:31

just absolutely legendary and

9:34

unforgettable. In fact, he

9:36

has this whole spiel

9:38

about the ABCs of

9:40

closing deals. ABC always

9:43

be closing. And it's

9:45

funny when I worked

9:47

at the chicken wing

9:50

place as a fry

9:52

cook, we used to

9:54

write ABC on on

9:56

the whiteboard and we

9:59

actually got in trouble

10:01

with this because one of the

10:03

cooks was obsessed with ABC, always

10:05

be closing. And what did that

10:08

mean when you're working on the

10:10

line? It meant that he was

10:12

basically closing the line while we

10:14

were working it. So like one

10:17

example is, you know, in a

10:19

kitchen, you stand on rubber mats

10:21

because the floors get slick. So

10:23

it's actually really dangerous to

10:26

be working on tile flooring that

10:28

could have oil on it. Well, when

10:30

your kitchen is primarily eight deep

10:32

fryers, there's going to be oil

10:34

on the floor. So the rubber

10:36

mats are kind of an important

10:38

safety feature of that setup. But

10:41

he would pull the mats before the

10:43

shift, before the dinner shift, at like

10:45

4.30 in the afternoon, he would

10:47

pull the mats and clean the floor

10:50

so that we didn't have to

10:52

do it later. So that was

10:54

part of his ABC, always be

10:56

closing mindset, which we did later

10:58

get... in trouble for when a

11:00

manager eventually showed up one shift

11:02

and the mats were gone and

11:05

like half the stations were closed

11:07

down so that we didn't have

11:09

to clean them up you know

11:12

after close. Anyway there's one

11:14

anecdote for the influence of

11:16

Glenn Gary Glenn Ross on

11:19

a chicken fryer kitchen you

11:21

know 15 years ago but the

11:23

the characters are all bad

11:25

guys, basically. As far as

11:27

I can remember, there isn't

11:29

really like a protagonist in

11:31

this play, you know, in

11:33

all ways the characters are

11:36

just full of different

11:38

flaws. There is one of them

11:40

you're like kind of rooting for,

11:42

but at the same time he's

11:45

also like not really a great

11:47

person. Anyway, the point

11:49

is is that the play itself is

11:51

a play about bad people,

11:54

basically. So for your criticism

11:56

of the play to be

11:58

like, hey, these... bad people are

12:01

bad people. It's like, yeah,

12:03

if you have a problem

12:05

with that, I don't know,

12:07

watch something else, maybe this

12:09

isn't the play for you.

12:12

You don't like these characters

12:14

because they're offensive. Those are

12:16

the characters. That is literally

12:18

the point. Like to soften

12:20

that would completely undermine the

12:22

point of the characters, which

12:25

it is a character study.

12:27

You know, it's a play,

12:29

it's about the characters and

12:31

their interactions and their interpersonal

12:33

conflicts. If you're going to

12:35

neuter that, you might as

12:38

well shut down the whole

12:40

thing because you no longer

12:42

have a play, you no

12:44

longer have a character dynamic

12:46

between these awful human beings.

12:48

But the thing that really

12:51

bothered me about it is,

12:53

well, first of all, just

12:55

not understanding, I guess. the

12:57

fact that it's that these

12:59

are fictional characters that the

13:01

way that fictional characters speak

13:04

is not an endorsement of

13:06

how normal or polite people

13:08

or civilized people should speak.

13:10

It's not an endorsement of

13:12

it. Like you are showing

13:14

people acting poorly. So if

13:17

anything it should give you

13:19

a sense of how not

13:21

to speak. to describe other

13:23

people or, you know, insult

13:25

other people and how to

13:27

not be a jerk. That's

13:30

the lesson in stories like

13:32

that. I mean, that's the

13:34

point of bad guys in

13:36

any story. Don't be the

13:38

bad guy. I mean, I

13:40

know that we have this

13:43

just boring obsession now with

13:45

like humanizing villains. I mean,

13:47

this is a trend in

13:49

stories that I just find

13:51

like, I rollingly boring. Which

13:53

is like, hey, what if...

13:56

you know, Cruella De Ville

13:58

actually had like a sympathetic

14:00

back story to explain why

14:02

she became a bad guy?

14:04

Or what if, you know,

14:06

maleficent was actually a hero?

14:09

Or what was the, like

14:11

I haven't watched those, but

14:13

isn't that the point of

14:15

things like wicked, which was

14:17

hugely popular this past year,

14:19

that film? Is the point

14:22

of wicked so to say

14:24

like hey what if the

14:26

wicked witch actually wasn't so

14:28

wicked or you know maybe

14:30

maybe we could just follow

14:32

the wicked witch around and

14:35

and feel bad for her

14:37

maybe Dorothy was the bad

14:39

guy I don't know like

14:41

I'm just speaking out of

14:43

pocket as the kids say

14:45

because I don't actually know

14:48

what the plot of that

14:50

is but the the fact

14:52

is that we are in

14:54

like the last I don't

14:56

know 10 years or so

14:58

just obsessed with humanizing villains,

15:01

which can be done interestingly,

15:03

but usually not. I find

15:05

it to be like kind

15:07

of a cheat code in

15:09

a shortcut to having and

15:11

to writing actually a compelling

15:14

story. It's like, what if,

15:16

oh my gosh, what if,

15:18

Bretty Kruger actually was the

15:20

good guy? Like, okay, really?

15:22

In a similar tone as

15:24

to what they keep doing

15:27

with the public domain characters,

15:29

where they turn them into

15:31

horror movies, Oh, Winnie the

15:33

Pooh is public domain. What

15:35

if Winnie the Pooh was

15:37

a horror monster and he

15:40

wanted to eat the honey

15:42

out of your bone marrow?

15:44

What if Barney the dinosaur

15:46

was evil? What if Popeye

15:48

was a murderous slasher? Like,

15:50

okay. Really? I don't know.

15:53

I'm sure there are plenty

15:55

of people who find that

15:57

interesting. I don't. I think

15:59

it's really... really boring. But

16:01

I got, okay, I got

16:03

sidetracked on that topic.

16:06

The main topic here,

16:08

though, is people misunderstanding

16:11

the purpose of fiction,

16:13

the purpose of satire,

16:15

and this directly affected

16:17

me when I was

16:19

working for the college

16:21

newspaper, because when

16:24

I talked about, you know,

16:26

my history, a few podcasts

16:28

ago. I talked about how I

16:31

was the editor for a

16:33

comic strip section of the

16:35

school newspaper in college and

16:37

how eventually I expanded

16:40

that to a satirical essay

16:42

section in that newspaper, you

16:44

know, onion style satirical

16:47

essays. So as someone who, you

16:49

know, loved things like Mr. Show

16:51

and the League of Gentlemen,

16:53

like I really, really, really

16:56

love comedic characters. I

16:58

started writing essays from the

17:01

perspective of a comedic character. That

17:03

was the point of the essay.

17:05

So I would turn into a

17:07

character and I would write some

17:10

sort of grievance or complaint

17:12

letter to the newspaper as

17:14

that character, not as Kevin

17:16

Lieber. I was not writing

17:18

some sort of editorial or

17:21

diatribe as from the desk

17:23

of Kevin Lieber and me

17:25

complaining about... the cafeteria food

17:28

or something. It wasn't

17:30

that. I would make up

17:32

a character, invent a character

17:34

like you would in sketch comedy,

17:36

and then I would write an

17:38

essay from their perspective. So,

17:41

one of the essays that I

17:43

wrote was from a character who

17:45

I created it called

17:47

Muffer Van Awesome. Okay, first

17:49

name Muffer, last name Van Awesome.

17:51

So, like in the essay... are

17:54

in the in the article you

17:56

know the byline says that the

17:58

the the article is by Muffer

18:00

Van Awesome. So first of

18:03

all, that name is completely

18:05

idiotic and obviously absurdist and

18:07

stupid and comedic. The guy's

18:09

name wasn't John Smith. It

18:12

was Muffer Van Awesome. And

18:14

then for the profile picture

18:16

essentially of the article, you

18:18

know, I took a picture

18:21

of of myself with my

18:23

shirt off. doing devil horns,

18:25

you know, like heavy metal

18:27

devil horns, wearing a bright

18:30

orange visor cocked to the

18:32

side. Okay, so stay with

18:34

me here because I'm trying

18:36

to paint a picture. So

18:39

I have no shirt on,

18:41

I'm throwing up the devil

18:43

signs. I have a bright

18:45

orange visor cocked to the

18:48

side, and then I'm sticking

18:50

my tongue out. And on

18:52

my tongue is a huge

18:54

pile of chewed Doritos. Okay?

18:57

So this is the picture

18:59

of Muffer Van Awesome. Muffer

19:01

Van Awesome is a moron.

19:03

That is the point of

19:06

this character, is that he

19:08

is an idiot, completely irresponsible,

19:10

stupid idiot. That was the

19:12

character. Muffer Van Awesome. So

19:14

in the article by Muffer

19:17

Van Awesome, part of what

19:19

he was complaining about was

19:21

something to do with not

19:23

wanting to go to church.

19:26

Okay? So this is a

19:28

really important part of this

19:30

story. Muffer Van Awesome thought

19:32

that church is stupid. So

19:35

Muffer Van Awesome hates going

19:37

to church. It's boring and

19:39

dumb and he doesn't like

19:41

it. And... One of the

19:44

things in the article that

19:46

Muffer Van Awesome said was,

19:48

I mean this was 22

19:50

years ago or something so

19:53

I don't remember it verbatim,

19:55

but it was something like

19:57

the only way that Padre

19:59

would get him to go

20:02

to church is if the

20:04

body of Christ was pizza

20:06

rolls and the blood

20:08

of Christ was Mountain

20:10

Dew. Something like that.

20:12

Those were Muffer Van

20:15

Awesome's requirements. That was

20:17

Muffer Van Awesome's rider

20:19

for getting into church

20:21

was to replace the host,

20:24

the holy communion with

20:26

pizza rolls and Mountain

20:28

Dew. Which. again is,

20:30

at least in my

20:33

estimation, very obviously

20:36

stupid and absurd

20:38

and a joke. And it's

20:41

more importantly,

20:43

making fun of Muffer

20:46

Van Awesome being an

20:48

idiot. That is the

20:50

joke. The joke is

20:52

him. The joke is

20:54

the character. The joke

20:56

is what life is

20:59

like. of Muffer Van Awesome.

21:01

And it's a very stupid lens.

21:03

Like the way that Muffer

21:06

Van Awesome sees the world

21:08

is sophomoreic and juvenile

21:10

and silly and intended

21:13

to be funny, intended to

21:15

be humorous. Humorous

21:17

in the sense that you're laughing

21:19

at this idiot. You're

21:21

laughing at this dumb

21:23

character, Muffer Van Awesome. In the

21:26

same way. that you laugh at

21:28

Homer Simpson for being an idiot.

21:30

You laugh at Homer Simpson

21:32

for having an argument

21:34

with his own brain over whether

21:36

finding a peanut underneath the couch

21:38

is better than finding a $20 bill.

21:41

Like he's that much of an idiot

21:43

that he's upset at finding

21:45

money instead of the peanut he

21:47

was looking for. And then having

21:50

an argument with his brain,

21:52

and which his brain discusses that

21:54

the money... can be exchanged for

21:57

many more peanuts. But he's

21:59

an idiot! And that's why he's

22:01

funny. And Peter Griffin is

22:03

an idiot. And that's why

22:06

he's funny. We laugh at

22:08

the idiot. I mean, this

22:10

is like, perhaps the most

22:13

fundamental comedic character trope is

22:15

the moron. You know, going

22:17

all the way back to

22:20

vaudeville. You know, you have

22:22

Abbott and Costello. You have

22:24

Laurel and Hardy. The freaking

22:26

three stooges. All three of

22:29

them were idiots. All three

22:31

of them were stooges. All

22:33

three of them were stooges.

22:36

All three of them were

22:38

stooges. That was the point.

22:40

You had three stooges. And,

22:42

you know, one of them

22:45

was dumber than the next.

22:47

And they got into all

22:49

kinds of crazy hijinks as

22:52

a result of their stupidity,

22:54

hitting themselves over the head

22:56

with hammers and trying to

22:59

poke each other's eyeballs out.

23:01

Okay, well, uh, the Mufferven

23:03

Awesome article got me and

23:05

the entire... newspaper into a

23:08

lot of trouble. There was

23:10

a backlash. There was a

23:12

backlash to the point where

23:15

my coworkers, I mean, none

23:17

of us got paid. It

23:19

was, you know, a student

23:21

newspaper was all volunteer work,

23:24

but the other students that

23:26

worked with me on the

23:28

newspaper were pretty mad at

23:31

me because of the blowback

23:33

from this stupid. Muffer Van

23:35

Awesome article that I wrote

23:38

about, you know, Mountain Dew

23:40

and Pizza Roll's being delivered

23:42

in church because, well, some

23:44

of the representatives of local

23:47

churches in the area who

23:49

coincidentally also advertised in the

23:51

newspaper, well, they now decided

23:54

to boycott the newspaper and

23:56

the people who Run ads

23:58

in the newspaper. which helped

24:00

the newspaper get funding

24:03

in order to print

24:05

the newspaper, we're not

24:07

too happy with having

24:09

all of these ads

24:11

pulled from the local

24:13

churches because of my

24:15

Muffer Van Awesome article.

24:18

So now this stupid,

24:20

fake essay that I wrote

24:22

in like an afternoon that

24:24

I thought was at least

24:26

worthy of a mild chuckle.

24:29

or something to briefly amuse

24:31

students while they were

24:33

eating lunch in the

24:35

cafeteria at school, now we're

24:38

having meetings, like internal

24:40

discussions about what to

24:42

do, because I don't

24:44

remember how much money

24:46

was involved, but it

24:48

doesn't matter. It was

24:50

enough money that, you know, it

24:52

was kind of a bit of a

24:54

crisis that occurred within

24:56

the newspaper. as a result

24:59

of my stupid article.

25:01

And it all came back.

25:03

The reason that the Glenn

25:06

Gary Glenn Ross thing reminded

25:08

me this is that it

25:10

is the same exact

25:12

problem. Like these church ladies

25:15

did not recognize that

25:17

Muffer Van Awesome was the

25:19

butt of the joke. I,

25:22

Kevin Lieber, was not writing

25:24

some important impactful...

25:27

you know, on my

25:29

soapbox article about how

25:31

church sucks or is stupid,

25:34

that's not what it was.

25:36

The point of it

25:38

was this stupid character

25:41

named Muffer Van

25:43

Awesome doesn't like it.

25:45

Okay? So if anything, if

25:47

anything at all, if you

25:49

had like three brain cells

25:52

that you could rub together

25:54

in this moment to come

25:57

to Anything approaching a proper

25:59

conclusion. of this essay, it

26:01

is that stupid people think

26:04

that church is pointless and

26:06

dumb. Stupid people. Muffer Van

26:08

Awesome thinks that your church

26:10

is dumb because he's an

26:13

idiot. Okay? So if you

26:15

weren't, if they weren't looking

26:17

at it through this shallow

26:20

and surface level midwit lens,

26:22

they would understand that it's

26:24

actually... in a roundabout way

26:26

promoting their religion, promoting their

26:29

church. I mean, it's saying,

26:31

you know, that an idiot

26:33

thinks that their church is

26:36

stupid because he's dumb and

26:38

he's who we're supposed to

26:40

be laughing at. So it's

26:42

actually supporting what you're doing,

26:45

not trying to tear it

26:47

down. Oh my gosh, and

26:49

that was my, obviously, that

26:52

was my reaction to it.

26:54

I was like, oh my

26:56

God, like, I cannot believe

26:58

that they're taking this literally,

27:01

first of all, and that

27:03

secondly, that they're so upset

27:05

by it, that they're now

27:08

boycotting the entire newspaper, boycotting

27:10

the whole thing. So... What

27:12

did I, you know, obviously

27:14

what my reaction was, was

27:17

not to change anything I

27:19

was doing because I'm like,

27:21

look, I'm sorry that you're

27:24

a moron. Like how am

27:26

I supposed to placate like

27:28

every dumb person who reads

27:30

my thing? It's one of

27:33

the things that you learn

27:35

really, really quickly if you

27:37

are creating anything that... a

27:40

whole lot of people that

27:42

don't know you and you

27:44

don't know them are going

27:46

to look at is that

27:49

a certain percentage of those

27:51

people are either not going

27:53

to get what you're going

27:56

for, they're going to maybe

27:58

they hate it for justified

28:00

reason. like that's perfectly valid.

28:02

But you're definitely going

28:05

to get uncharitable

28:07

interpretations no matter what. This

28:09

uncharitable interpretation was so bad

28:11

that you know it caused

28:14

a bit of a kerfuffle for

28:16

me and you know everybody at

28:18

the newspaper what I did

28:20

do starting the following week's

28:22

newspaper was I so so I

28:25

should also mention that the

28:27

masthead on this section. So

28:29

this section of the newspaper

28:31

is at the end of

28:33

the newspaper. The back of

28:35

the newspaper are the comic

28:37

strips, which are obviously

28:40

comedic, they're comic

28:42

strips, and then the

28:44

inside cover, so attached to

28:46

the back cover, were the

28:49

satirical essays, which the

28:51

masthead labeled as the literary

28:54

lampoon. So the comics

28:56

page was labeled Lampoon

28:58

and then the essay section,

29:00

which was on the other side

29:03

of the page in gigantic

29:06

headline font, labeled

29:08

that section as

29:10

literary lampoon. So it's

29:12

not like these comedic

29:14

essays were wedged in

29:17

with standard editorials or

29:19

anything like that. In

29:21

my opinion, there was...

29:23

No way to confuse the

29:25

fact that these were meant

29:28

to be funny writeups. They were

29:30

not meant to be taken

29:32

seriously. So what I did

29:34

starting the next week

29:37

was I literally underneath

29:39

the the masthead under

29:41

underneath you know where

29:43

it said literary lampoon

29:45

and gigantic block letters.

29:47

I started writing the

29:49

definition of the word

29:51

lampoon underneath it. Because

29:53

at that point I'm like

29:56

I don't I'm out of

29:58

options here for trying. to

30:00

express the fact that

30:02

this is the joke

30:04

section of the newspaper.

30:06

Like this is the

30:09

comedy section of the

30:11

newspaper. This page is

30:13

not meant to be

30:15

taken literally. I literally

30:17

started writing the definition

30:20

of lampoon. Just to

30:22

make it that much

30:24

clearer what lampoon means.

30:26

So here's what Lampoon

30:28

means according to dictionary.com.

30:31

Publicly criticize by using

30:33

ridicule, irony, or sarcasm.

30:35

I think that's a

30:37

different definition that what

30:39

I had. Here's another

30:42

one. A harsh satire,

30:44

usually directed against an

30:46

individual. So yes, satire.

30:48

Muffer Van Awesome is

30:50

satire. Maybe I should

30:53

have also put the

30:55

definition of satire underneath

30:57

there. Satire, a literary

30:59

work holding up human

31:01

vices and follies to

31:04

ridicule or scorn. Yes,

31:06

exactly. That was the

31:08

purpose of the Muffer

31:10

Van Awesome article is

31:12

to hold up the

31:15

human vices of Muffer

31:17

Van Awesome, which is,

31:19

you know, junk food

31:21

and, you know, short-term

31:23

satisfaction. Their follies to

31:26

ridicule or scorn. Yes,

31:28

Muffer Van Awesome was

31:30

being ridiculed, not held

31:32

up as a, you

31:34

know, beacon of, I

31:36

don't know, the standards

31:39

that represent the newspaper

31:41

and the student body

31:43

at large, which is

31:45

how it was treated.

31:47

It was so ridiculous.

31:50

And to the same

31:52

degree that I found.

31:54

The Glenn Gary Glenn

31:56

Ross criticism ridiculous. It

31:58

is absurdly shallow-minded. to

32:01

criticize fictional characters,

32:04

their fictional

32:06

characters, and their

32:09

behavior is indicative

32:11

of those characters and

32:14

should be treated

32:16

as such. It's not meant

32:18

to be some, you know,

32:20

shouting from the

32:23

rooftops way of explaining

32:25

how human beings

32:28

should behave. moral beacons.

32:30

They are loathsome characters.

32:32

And if we don't

32:35

have the maturity as

32:37

an audience to discern

32:39

the difference between

32:42

a loathsome character and a

32:44

moral one, then I don't

32:46

know, just get rid of the

32:49

whole thing. Because what are

32:51

we doing? What is

32:53

the purpose in any

32:55

sense of even having

32:58

storytelling? If you can't juxtapose,

33:00

you know, good and evil,

33:02

or moral versus immoral,

33:04

that, that, that just, it

33:06

just reminded me directly of

33:09

the Muffer Van Awesome controversy.

33:11

And I was, oh, I

33:13

was just beside myself.

33:15

And, and, and the weird thing

33:18

was, is like I said, the other

33:20

people at the newspaper, like,

33:22

the higher ups, obviously, the editor

33:25

in chief and, you know, like

33:27

the, the student body advisor

33:30

or whatever, they obviously understood

33:32

and supported me to a

33:34

degree. They weren't like, hey,

33:36

we're thrilled that you pissed

33:39

off all of the local

33:41

churches. Nobody was happy about

33:43

this situation. But some

33:45

of the ed people were genuinely

33:48

bad at me, which I thought

33:50

was kind of weird because

33:52

guys, like, come on. They

33:54

obviously misinterpreting a

33:57

joke. which is labeled as a joke.

33:59

It's like... It's like saying to

34:01

a person, here comes a joke.

34:03

Are you ready? Yes, I'm ready.

34:06

And then you tell them a

34:08

joke, and then they get upset

34:10

and take it literally. Well, I

34:13

already told you it was going

34:15

to be a joke. What are

34:17

you getting mad at? I don't

34:20

actually, yeah, the views, and false

34:22

threads in the chat says, the

34:24

views expressed by Muffer Van Awesome,

34:27

do not represent, yeah, do not

34:29

represent the school newspaper. I'm surprised

34:32

that yeah I didn't even have

34:34

to go to those lengths starting

34:36

in the following issue doing a

34:39

retraction or you know a correction.

34:41

Correction in last week's issue Muffer

34:43

Van Awesome said that the body

34:46

of Christ should be pizza rolls

34:48

and that was wrong. That was

34:50

actually one of the things so

34:53

if you read this I don't

34:55

recommend that you do it's it's

34:57

really dumb It will lower your

35:00

IQ, but if you read this

35:02

Daily Beast article criticizing Glenn Gary

35:04

Glenn Ross Literally one of the

35:07

things that the that the guy

35:09

proposes is that there there's sort

35:11

of like no moral character who

35:14

comes in and I don't know

35:16

explains that the bad guys are

35:18

bad guys basically Like no one,

35:21

imagine like David Mamet walking out

35:23

in the middle of the play,

35:25

the writer, to say, hey, we

35:28

know that these characters said some

35:30

naughty things. We just want the

35:32

audience to understand that that was

35:35

wrong. That was wrong and you

35:37

know you shouldn't do that just

35:39

because they did that does not

35:42

mean that you should you shouldn't

35:44

speak this way and you shouldn't

35:46

you know treat people this way

35:49

you shouldn't be prejudiced this way

35:51

whatever it is. Oh my gosh

35:53

imagine a world in where in

35:56

which that has to happen where

35:58

you have to have like a

36:01

Deus X Makina morality

36:03

police coming out

36:05

and saying, yeah, guys, just

36:08

to let you know, the

36:10

bad guys are bad guys.

36:12

Yeah, Darth Vader is a

36:14

bad guy. Like you really

36:16

shouldn't be like Darth

36:19

Vader. You know, he

36:21

represents the dark side

36:24

of the force. in

36:26

case you didn't pick up

36:28

on the subtleties of that

36:30

in the film. And the dark

36:32

side of the force, those are

36:34

the bad guys. So just wanted

36:37

to make that clear. We'll get

36:39

back to the movie in a

36:41

second, but we just wanted to

36:44

take this moment to take a

36:46

pause. You could have a snack.

36:49

I have some orange slices.

36:51

Will you bring out the...

36:53

the ziploc bag of orange

36:55

slices while we have our

36:57

little our little break here

36:59

our little snack time we

37:01

have we do have chocolate

37:03

milk if you're allergic to

37:05

to to milk then we

37:07

have some you know lact-free

37:09

options as well we have

37:11

some rice milk like we

37:13

have gram crackers and apple

37:15

juice if you don't like

37:18

orange slices and chocolate

37:20

milk. We're just really

37:22

trying to look out

37:24

for all of our

37:26

little babies in the

37:29

audience. The infants watching

37:31

this David Mamet play,

37:33

or, you know, the church

37:35

ladies lighting their hair

37:38

on fire over a

37:40

satirical article by a

37:42

guy named Muffer Van

37:45

Awesome, who is sticking

37:47

his tongue out with a

37:49

load, a... a disgusting

37:51

pile of Doritos half

37:54

chewed sticking on top of

37:56

it. Like, none of that

37:58

tipped you off. None of

38:00

that tipped you off. The

38:02

picture, the name, the fact

38:05

that it was in the

38:07

lampoon section of the newspaper,

38:09

like none of those hints

38:11

really were good enough in

38:13

order to give you an

38:15

insight into, I don't know,

38:17

the context of the article.

38:19

Holy crap. But this is

38:21

a thing. This is a

38:23

thing. You know, people, I

38:25

don't know, I don't, I

38:27

don't, I don't, I don't

38:29

know that I have the

38:31

answer for why this is

38:33

a thing. I think there

38:35

are probably, like anything, multiple

38:37

reasons for it. You know,

38:39

one reason, one reason for

38:41

an article like the Daily

38:43

Beast one, honestly, is just

38:46

to get clicks to write

38:48

some rage bait. You know,

38:50

rage bait is a thing.

38:52

You need traffic for your

38:54

stupid website. So you write

38:56

some incendiary crap that a

38:58

whole bunch of people will

39:00

talk about and that Kevin

39:02

Lieberman rail against in a

39:04

podcast. So that's certainly one

39:06

incentive or motivation for doing

39:08

it. But the church ladies

39:10

did not have any incentive

39:12

for that. Like they were

39:14

not monetizing their rage. They

39:16

were legitimately furious. They were

39:18

not furious to a degree

39:20

where they just... grumbled amongst

39:22

themselves. They were furious to

39:24

agree to a degree in

39:27

which they contacted the newspaper

39:29

and told them they were

39:31

boycotting it and literally pulled

39:33

all of their advertising dollars

39:35

and were no longer going

39:37

to be associated with this

39:39

newspaper because of this, you

39:41

know, blasphemous, heretical, disgusting article

39:43

by again. Muffer Van Awesome.

39:45

So, you know, the lesson

39:47

is, first of all, don't

39:49

change what you're... going to

39:51

do for these people. Never

39:53

ever compromise your creations for

39:55

the dumbest people who are

39:57

going to see it. Because

39:59

then you might as well

40:01

just not create anything. If

40:03

you're concerned about the various

40:05

iterations of the dumbest human

40:08

beings who are going to

40:10

have a problem with what

40:12

you're going to do, then

40:14

you can't do anything. You'll

40:16

just be crippled by that.

40:18

because no matter what it

40:20

is, I mean if anybody

40:22

listening to this podcast has

40:24

made anything online and shared

40:26

it and it has reached

40:28

any sort of critical mass

40:30

outside of their you know

40:32

their Dunbar's number concentric circles

40:34

of people that they know

40:36

and people that they know,

40:38

then you will have learned

40:40

this lesson that you're going

40:42

to get some crazy freaking

40:44

responses. Some really like... Uncharitable

40:46

responses to a degree at

40:49

which you'd never have imagined

40:51

anyone would misinterpret or react

40:53

to the thing that you

40:55

did. You can't even guess

40:57

in a million years what

40:59

some of those responses are

41:01

going to be like. And

41:03

I actually do feel bad

41:05

for people who gets so

41:07

discouraged by that they stop

41:09

doing anything. I mean, if

41:11

that that that is sad

41:13

to me. the worst outcome

41:15

from something happening like that

41:17

as if you know you

41:19

make something and some seriously

41:21

big dummies have a problem

41:23

with it and now you're

41:25

depressed about it and anxious

41:27

about it and afraid to

41:30

make anything else like that's

41:32

horrible please do not do

41:34

that like do not Do

41:36

not let them win. You're

41:38

letting the terrorists win if

41:40

you do that. Because, you

41:42

know, the whole adage that

41:44

you eat. You know, you

41:46

can't please everyone. Well, not

41:48

only can you not please

41:50

everyone, but you cannot prevent

41:52

morons from having a problem

41:54

with you. It will always

41:56

be the case, especially as

41:58

something that you do gets

42:00

more and more reach. I

42:02

mean, I don't remember what

42:04

the reach of this newspaper

42:06

was. It wasn't a lot.

42:08

It was like, you know,

42:11

campus newspaper. So it was

42:13

like several thousand. So it

42:15

was like, you know, campus

42:17

newspaper. So it was like

42:19

several thousand. But even within

42:21

that, you know, little microcosm,

42:23

that little domed world, well,

42:25

I managed to piss off

42:27

some people pretty, pretty badly.

42:29

And that's going to happen.

42:31

So look out for this

42:33

kind of thing. You know,

42:35

don't, uh, don't be discouraged

42:37

by those types of criticisms

42:39

because they're, they're in such

42:41

bad faith that they're not

42:43

even worth really. doing anything

42:45

at other than laughing at,

42:47

like laughing at someone being

42:49

that dumb, laughing at, God,

42:52

I never met obviously these

42:54

people who pulled the ads

42:56

from the paper over my

42:58

Muffer Van Awesome article. I

43:00

have no idea who they

43:02

are, I never will, but

43:04

man, it would have been

43:06

really, really interesting to me

43:08

to have been able to

43:10

sit down and just speak

43:12

with them about it. Like,

43:14

listen, Galatus. What exactly do

43:16

you think is happening here?

43:18

What exactly do you think

43:20

comedy is? What do you

43:22

think satire is? What do

43:24

you think the literary, the

43:26

section of the newspaper labeled

43:28

Literary Lampoon is? What do

43:30

you think is happening here?

43:33

So that I can better

43:35

understand where you're coming from

43:37

with your outrage over, you

43:39

know, Muffer Van Awesome, being

43:41

a moron. It would have

43:43

been really fascinating to hear

43:45

their perspective on that. Which

43:47

I'll never know you know,

43:49

maybe maybe they knew that

43:51

it was a joke and

43:53

they just didn't care Certainly

43:55

that's probably one of the

43:57

possibilities that you know even

43:59

making a joke about something

44:01

like that is so Disgusting

44:03

and egregious to them that

44:05

they would flip out even

44:07

if like they don't they

44:09

don't they don't they don't

44:11

they don't accept I guess

44:14

the shield or the explanation

44:16

of something being a joke

44:18

but You know, my perspective

44:20

on it, again, like I

44:22

mentioned earlier, was that the

44:24

character was a joke. And

44:26

if the character has this

44:28

problem, that speaks ill of

44:30

the character. And it's not

44:32

speaking ill of what you're

44:34

doing in the community, you

44:36

know, with your evangelical outreach

44:38

or whatever the case may

44:40

be. And it's also the

44:42

same thing as like, well,

44:44

I don't know, maybe, you

44:46

know, somebody reads... the Muffer

44:48

Van Awesome article and they

44:50

agree with it. What if

44:52

they agree with it and

44:55

it, you know, emboldens their

44:57

stance that church should be

44:59

handing out pizza rolls and

45:01

Mountain Dew. It's like, well,

45:03

um, I hate to break

45:05

it to you, but they're

45:07

idiots too. Like, and it's

45:09

the same thing with the

45:11

Glenn Gary Glenn Ross thing.

45:13

Well, what if this emboldens

45:15

bad people, they're bad people.

45:17

They're already morons. They're already

45:19

gross people. If they're siding

45:21

with the bad guys, well,

45:23

they already walked into that

45:25

fictional world being a bad

45:27

guy themselves. So what are

45:29

you going to do about

45:31

that? Now we can't have

45:33

any fiction depicting bad guys

45:36

because there are real bad

45:38

guys in the world? Well,

45:40

where do you think the

45:42

fiction comes from? What do

45:44

you think is being depicted

45:46

to begin with? It's based

45:48

on... Relatable characters. That's why

45:50

you watch it. That's why

45:52

it's compelling. Because people like

45:54

this exist in real life,

45:56

but we don't like them.

45:58

That's why we're not lionizing

46:00

them in this play or

46:02

why I'm not lionizing Muffer

46:04

Van Awesome in my satirical

46:06

article. Like, look, we're all

46:08

on the same team here.

46:10

Oh my gosh. So. That's

46:12

that's the that's a conclusion

46:14

of story time with Kevin

46:17

this week I hope that

46:19

you enjoyed a little glimpse

46:21

into the controversies that I've

46:23

I guess manifested in my

46:25

life prior like prior to

46:27

YouTube being a thing and

46:29

you know has obviously helped

46:31

shape my my worldview when

46:33

it comes to stuff like

46:35

this because I have a

46:37

lot of experience in different

46:39

capacities with a lot of

46:41

stupid crap and that's all

46:43

this type of thing is

46:45

stupid crap. All right everybody

46:47

thank you so much for

46:49

joining the recording all of

46:51

our patrons in the discord

46:53

if you want to become

46:55

a patron go to patreon.com

46:58

such to create unknown. That

47:00

is how this podcast continues

47:02

to happen so thank you

47:04

very much to everyone who

47:06

supports the podcast. I'll be

47:08

back next week until then.

47:10

See you, Space Cowboys. Thanks

47:12

for listening to The Create

47:14

Unknown. We make this show

47:16

with the support of our

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patrons. 100% of that goes

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You all really do make

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47:36

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month. And thank you to

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47:49

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47:51

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47:53

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47:55

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47:57

And a tremendous shout-out to

47:59

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48:01

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and of course, Kravstad. You

48:15

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48:17

as well to our indentured

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48:22

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48:24

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48:26

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48:28

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48:40

The Create Unknown is an

48:42

unknown media production and partnership

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with Studio 71. We

48:58

interrupt this program to bring you

49:00

an important Wayfair message. Wayfair's got

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