0:10

Welcome to another episode of the

0:12

Creating Belonging podcast . Today , I have

0:14

with me Rick Clemens

0:16

. And Rick , I'd love for you just to introduce

0:18

yourself and your own words .

0:21

Yeah , so I'm a guy

0:23

who struggled with

0:25

belonging for my entire

0:27

life , even at 60 years old . There's times I

0:29

still struggle , but I'm a

0:32

gay dad and

0:34

I let that whole experience of coming

0:36

out of the closet drive the rest of

0:38

what happened in my life , to the

0:40

point that it became a business for me , and

0:43

I'm a coach and author , a podcaster

0:46

myself , and I've turned

0:48

the whole concept of coming out and belonging

0:50

into something that really helps people step

0:52

into their own world and

0:54

realize they can let go of a lot

0:56

of things that they were doing . A lot of your

0:59

stuff , honestly , is

1:01

very similar to us , I

1:05

think . As a

1:07

community , we

1:09

find ourselves reclusive at times . We deal

1:11

with overbearing thoughts and processes

1:14

that keep us in the closet . We

1:16

minimize who we are to help keep everybody

1:18

else happy and then , lo and behold , we

1:20

don't feel like we ever belong . So that's

1:23

my story and I think I'm going to stick to it for now

1:25

.

1:26

I love it , rick , I love you're already bringing the model

1:28

in .

1:32

You told me that's what you want me to do , not kidding .

1:36

You're just showing that you've done your homework , which I love . I haven't

1:38

done my homework .

1:40

Do I get an A ? That's all I want to know . Do

1:42

I get an A for the A ? Yeah , so you

1:44

get an A Awesome .

1:47

So one other thing I like to do you revealed

1:49

some identities , but I also like to just kind of

1:51

ground us and make sure there's any other

1:54

, see if there's any other identities that you want to share

1:56

with our audience , as most

1:58

are just listening .

2:01

Yeah , I feel like there's this other piece of

2:03

myself that's oh you already everybody

2:05

heard I'm gay . But after that experience

2:08

of finally coming into my truth , I

2:10

realized I started opening other closets

2:13

of my life and going this is who I want to be

2:15

. And I was very reclusive

2:18

about wanting to be my own business

2:20

owner and have my own business . And

2:23

it's interesting , justin , to see how

2:25

that one quote , one moment of life

2:27

which wasn't one , it was every ongoing

2:29

moment of life opened me

2:32

to the realization of how much I

2:34

was missing out on belonging so much in my world

2:37

in so many spaces . So I became

2:39

an entrepreneur , I started speaking on stages

2:41

, started doing my podcast and

2:43

suddenly Rick's a pretty happy camper because

2:45

he opened himself up to like

2:48

hey , this is what it feels good for me to

2:50

belong in the world . Yeah

2:52

, faster than me .

2:54

Yeah , I know I've got to say

2:56

I've been , I've been out of my own for the

2:58

past year and there's

3:00

something so liberating about

3:02

it and I get to do the work that I

3:04

love doing every day and make a choice

3:07

about it . Yep , and I've been so

3:09

happy so I totally get it

3:11

. Thank you for sharing . And I love

3:13

the work that you do in , you

3:15

know , coaching other gay

3:17

individuals , you know , in their

3:19

journey , which I'm sure maybe that will

3:21

come into our conversation . But

3:23

I guess , to get us started , you know

3:25

, have you what , what , what

3:28

life experiences ? As you were going

3:30

through the work of creating belonging at the book

3:32

, what life experiences came to mind

3:34

for you as you were reflecting on

3:36

your journey ?

3:39

Well , I think the biggest one is from a very young

3:41

age . I I

3:43

never had ever really felt like I fit

3:45

in in places . I

3:47

really strived hard and one of the

3:49

biggest lessons I learned about myself in striving

3:52

to belong is

3:54

a lot of times I was striving to belong to the wrong

3:56

space or with

3:58

the wrong people and

4:01

that revealed itself in some very interesting ways

4:04

as I grew my business

4:06

and I got around some pretty well

4:08

known entrepreneurs out there in the entrepreneurial

4:10

space and

4:14

it's almost like I inserted myself in their world

4:16

, which was fine . But guess what I was wanting

4:18

? I was wanting to belong . So I'm like

4:20

well , why aren't they accepting me ? Or why and

4:23

the best example of that is Chris Gillibow

4:25

, who used to run World Domination

4:27

Summit in Portland , oregon . He's a New York Times bestseller

4:30

. He's written the book a hundred

4:32

dollar startup and a few other amazing books

4:34

Went to the conference

4:36

, kind of got to know him . He offered to be

4:38

on my podcast a couple of times and

4:41

all the way through that , justin , I was like

4:43

I just want to be on the WDS stage

4:45

, I just want to be on the WSDH , and

4:47

I got really angry at times because I was never

4:49

being seen for who I was and I reached out to

4:51

their team and like , hey , you know , hey , you

4:54

know , here's how we usually do it . When we find somebody

4:56

that we want , we come after them . I'm like , okay , there

4:59

was a lot of growth there , but I was trying to belong

5:01

because if I could do this then I'd fit in

5:03

Right . And

5:06

then one day , recording the podcast with Chris

5:08

after I launched 40 plus gay man , gay

5:10

talk and he's not gay , I was actually with a different podcast

5:13

at the time was 40 plus real man , real

5:15

talk . I was talking to real guys about the stuff we guys

5:17

need to talk about . We got done

5:19

. I had already kind of let

5:21

that dream go Like , okay

5:23

, you know , seven years going to the conference

5:25

. No , I love going to the conference . And

5:28

Guess what Chris said have

5:30

you ever been on the WDS stage ? Of

5:34

course I wanted to kind of slap him . I'm like you rough

5:36

the frickin program and you should know right . But

5:38

after seven years of Multiple speakers

5:41

and all this sort of stuff , you know I , you

5:43

know , I used to be a meeting planner and

5:46

there it was Justin and dropped in my lap the

5:49

opportunity to speak . But

5:52

here's the difference I Wasn't

5:55

Striving and yearning like

5:57

this is gonna be the thing , and actually that's

5:59

one of my proudest moments speaking on stage

6:01

, because I was just like , okay

6:03

, this is , let's go have some fun , let's

6:06

just go do this because I get to get back to

6:08

this community that I really love and I get to

6:10

go . It was such

6:12

a big shift for me . It

6:15

brought me out of this interesting space of

6:17

going here's why I'm doing this and got me into

6:19

a space up . Here's the real reason

6:22

. Mm-hmm started unlocking

6:24

other ways that I saw myself being

6:26

overbearing in my own way about relationships

6:29

, minimizing other people's talents

6:32

, a lot of times holding up like

6:34

I can't believe I didn't get the attention from this

6:36

person or that person or this person that I wanted . So

6:38

then I would , I would literally like hold up . I

6:41

do my work , I do my life and

6:43

people say we don't see much anymore

6:46

out there on Internet , and

6:48

you know social media and you

6:50

know I had to grow up

6:52

. I had to realize that my belonging

6:54

was me creating belonging in the right

6:56

way versus my idea of

6:58

what belonging .

7:02

Well , yeah . So I'm curious how did that

7:04

shift happen for you ?

7:08

Humility . I Started

7:11

realizing and I had a few mentors saying

7:13

you know , rick , here's the thing , you are

7:15

a brilliant guy , you got

7:17

. You got a great message in it . But and

7:20

one , one mentor in particular said and you got

7:22

it , you got a huge effin

7:25

ego man . I

7:27

was like , okay

7:30

, that hurt , but

7:35

then I was Willing enough

7:37

. And I think this is part of when we think

7:39

about how do we belong or how do we move

7:41

it through some of these things . That's in your beautiful

7:43

process . You

7:45

have to be able to see it , to believe

7:48

it , and then you have to embrace

7:50

it and fix it . Hmm

7:52

, and I grew up in a narcissistic home and

7:55

I thought I'm never gonna be that and

7:58

I worked really hard not to be that , except

8:00

I was In my

8:02

own way . We're not not near to level . You

8:05

know that my father was . But and

8:07

that was the shift man , the humility and

8:09

realizing Maybe

8:11

the reason I don't belong is people see

8:13

ego , a

8:16

little bit of a narcissist in me . It's

8:18

always got to be the way I want to get things done . And

8:21

it hurt . It hurt to see yourself

8:23

that way . I do some big

8:26

deep breaths and said , okay , let's

8:29

start doing some work . That's why , when I

8:31

really entered into that personal development stuff

8:33

, was that at that time .

8:34

Okay , so and so that

8:36

was the catalyst was kind of like Getting

8:39

more into your own kind of personal

8:41

development .

8:42

Well , I figured , if I'm gonna be coaching people about

8:44

, you know , being themselves

8:47

and you know , moving out of their fears and excuses

8:49

, I had

8:52

to be living and breathing my walk and talk . I Didn't

8:55

want to be out of integrity . I live . I

8:57

lived 36 years of my life . I'm

8:59

integrity before I came out of the closet

9:01

. And it's interesting just because everything kind

9:03

of comes back to that experience , like , well , that was

9:05

the real catalyst , but that also

9:07

was the catalyst that fed the other catalysts

9:10

like , even to this day , continue . There's

9:12

things that happen , you know , in the last few

9:15

months , where I'm like , oh , that

9:18

that's not how I'm gonna fit in

9:20

, that's not how I need to feel , like I need to fit in

9:22

, or that's not what I need to be

9:24

doing , or don't isolate . Because of that , it's

9:27

interesting . I mean , when you reach out to me like

9:29

, oh , this is really interesting because there's a lot of alignment

9:31

in what you Speak on what I do , mm-hmm

9:34

. And I

9:36

think , for many people , if they really realized

9:38

what they can do , when they start embracing

9:41

what it looks like to be , you

9:43

know , your own recluse , or if you're letting

9:45

overbearing us be part of who you are , you

9:48

minimize everybody else , you minimize your feelings

9:51

. I'm a huge low , you

9:53

know it's okay , I'm good . Yeah

9:55

, I want to take care of everybody else , and that's really

9:57

detrimental to my own well-being , so

10:00

Mm-hmm .

10:01

That's how I love your . I

10:03

love that you're in this place of you know , finding

10:05

belonging through your

10:07

own enlightenment , through your own

10:09

Reflection of who you are , and

10:11

developing yourself , because that's I

10:14

keep . So I'm digging deeper into

10:16

just thoughts around the creating belonging work

10:18

and more research around authenticity

10:21

and what have been

10:23

having this week , just this week , having very

10:25

interesting conversations around Authenticity

10:28

and you know , authenticity I don't

10:30

know if you saw is like the , the

10:33

word of 2023 , um

10:36

, but I think it's

10:38

being used in a way that isn't

10:41

A way that

10:43

serves us best . Like

10:46

often , like I think we see

10:48

authenticity , a lot of this , like it's

10:50

actually fitting in , rather

10:53

than digging into deep self-awareness

10:56

, self-reflection , understanding

10:58

who we are and then showing up with intention

11:01

Of who we

11:03

really are and want to

11:05

be for the world , not , um

11:08

, to fit in in the world .

11:10

Yep , I see authenticity

11:13

as uh , maybe it's because I just interviewed

11:15

somebody from my podcast and we talked a lot about

11:17

radical integrity . When

11:21

you can be radically authentic

11:23

, that's saying I'm

11:25

not gonna , I'm gonna

11:27

be my own unique self . I'm gonna allow

11:30

that piece of me to be truly

11:32

seen . That doesn't mean you get

11:34

to go be a jerk , that's not what I'm getting at

11:36

but I would much rather . I mean I'll

11:39

give you a good example . When I speak on stage

11:41

, don't do it as much as I

11:43

used to . You

11:45

will never , ever , ever , see

11:47

me in a suit and tie . In fact , you'll

11:49

be lucky if I'm even wearing khakis

11:51

and a tucked-in shirt , because

11:53

authentic rick comes out . Jeans

11:57

, untucked shirt , bright

11:59

pair of shoes , bright colored pair of shoes , because

12:01

that's my bold , big energy . I wanna

12:04

just be comfortable in who I am . Plus , I move a lot

12:06

on stage and everything , and I

12:08

tell my meeting planners when they hire me , like

12:10

here's the deal I will never be

12:12

the buttoned-up suit and tie guy , but I'm gonna deliver

12:14

like nobody's business to make

12:16

sure your audience has an experience

12:18

as a transformation . And the way I'm

12:20

able to do that is I get to be authentically

12:22

myself on stage , the same line being authentically

12:25

right now having this conversation with you about

12:27

serving your audience . It's just

12:29

not gonna be in a suit and tie .

12:32

Yeah , I never had anybody push that . Yeah

12:36

, and that's why they're hiring you , right For you

12:38

, for the unique perspective that you bring , for

12:41

the voice that you have . So

12:43

, yeah , and I think that's great kind of

12:45

table stakes to put out there , because if somebody was

12:47

like , no , actually we need you to wear a suit

12:49

, and you'd be like , well , that's not me , so

12:52

I'm not gonna be doing you a service because

12:55

I can't be authentic in

12:57

this work . I love that .

13:01

And so another part of my business is I actually coach

13:04

public speakers on building their speaking

13:06

businesses . This is one of the things

13:08

I drive home . If you show up differently

13:11

on stage than how you

13:13

market yourself on your website , that's

13:15

the surest way to ensure you

13:18

never get another speaking gig , or

13:20

vice versa . You need to show up

13:22

authentically who you are

13:25

. When you show up and

13:27

again I think back to your process

13:29

it's really understanding

13:32

how you perceive yourself belonging

13:34

in the world , and not just perceived

13:37

. It is like embodying that piece

13:39

in the world . Mm-hmm , it's

13:41

huge .

13:43

Yeah , yeah , there are some other

13:46

things . I wanna go down another little rabbit

13:48

hole and the

13:51

way that you were talking about kind of this ego

13:53

, kind of pre-enlightenment

13:56

and not that it's the only enlightenment

13:58

that you've had , I'm sure , but like that particular

14:01

one of that ego and

14:03

kind of the hardworking it

14:05

just makes me think of my experience as a gay

14:08

man and how

14:10

I was always

14:12

trying to be better or

14:15

better than Yup , because

14:17

then if I'm better than like

14:20

you can't look down on me for whatever reason like

14:22

I'm still doing better and

14:24

that is something I think I'm still trying

14:26

to shake that a little bit . But I'm curious

14:29

that resonates with you and your

14:31

journey .

14:32

Well , I think it ties back into okay

14:34

, if I had this mentor really like me , then

14:37

I'm oh , I'm in that circle

14:39

now I'm better . And then if I

14:41

do this , I mean I

14:44

don't really watch the

14:46

downloads on my podcast because I'm like I get

14:48

emails and stuff . I'm like cool people

14:50

are listening . That's

14:54

my barometer . Yes , I see the numbers , but

14:57

that's whole

14:59

better than and I think we

15:02

as gay

15:04

men , we kind of have

15:06

to be that way , so to speak . I'm saying that in a way because I'm

15:08

not saying we have to , but we kind of think we have

15:10

to be that way Because we're

15:13

so driven in the community . We

15:15

got to have the abs and

15:17

the biceps and this and the cars and

15:20

the right and

15:22

so much of it gets judged around that . And I lived kind

15:24

of

15:26

adjacent to that life for

15:28

a while . I lived

15:31

in Orange County , california , and

15:34

there was a perception of how you were supposed to be . And

15:37

that was when I was married to my wife and

15:40

there was a lot of push and , honestly , had I not come out of

15:42

the closet , we probably would have got divorced anyway

15:44

, because I just wasn't gonna be what she wanted . I

15:48

just couldn't do that and

15:51

it was ooh , this is how you get to be known

15:53

, this is how you get to be who you are in the world , and

15:55

it's one of the things that I cool go be who you want to be . I'm

15:57

a full proponent of that right . But

16:00

when I realized if that's how I'm gonna

16:02

live my life , by

16:05

that standard I'm not gonna be

16:07

happy . I love nice things , I

16:09

love going on great trips and everything , but

16:14

I don't need it to be because I'm better than somebody

16:16

else . It's just , this is what I do , this

16:19

is what I do . And it was hard

16:21

because when I had the ego narcissist part of

16:23

myself , well , I mean , it's still there , folks . I

16:25

want anybody listening to think , oh wow , he's

16:27

very super enlightened . No , hell , no , it

16:30

shows up when I least need it to show

16:32

up . And then I'm like what are you doing

16:34

, rick ? But

16:37

I think when that was present

16:39

and then feeling the pressures of

16:41

you know , my ex-wife , like

16:43

we need to have this and you have this and I need

16:45

to be able to be a say mom , we

16:48

need to have the big , I was just like

16:50

for what , for

16:52

what ? And that's

16:54

still kind of my philosophy . I always

16:56

say OK , for what Doesn't

16:59

mean I won't go after something really nice , but

17:01

I often now put it in that

17:03

little like Peter Disha

17:05

, for what ? What am I doing this for ? Because

17:08

if it's not truly going to bring me joy and happiness

17:10

and I won't

17:12

I don't hang out with people who are very

17:14

materialistically driven and I

17:17

don't do well with people who are putting on

17:19

the fake . Show me who

17:21

you are , just show me who you are , then

17:24

I get to decide . If I get to show you who I

17:26

am , well , I always show people who I am . For

17:29

the most part , I'm not very I'm

17:31

pretty damn transparent with scares

17:33

. A lot of people like I can't believe he talks about

17:36

this stuff .

17:38

Yeah , I love that . I

17:40

want to shift gears a little bit because I'm curious

17:42

to hear a little bit of you know

17:45

so you being married to

17:47

a woman and then kind of coming

17:49

out later in life and

17:51

how that to

17:54

have Influenced

17:57

current relationships and

17:59

like your belonging in in

18:02

the that dynamic of those relationships

18:04

, and I'm curious to hear a little

18:06

bit about that transition in your life and

18:09

how you found belonging or

18:12

re-found belonging Well

18:15

, it really started

18:17

at a pretty

18:19

young age .

18:21

because there was a part of me that knew

18:23

who I was and I'm talking really

18:25

young , like five , six , seven years old I

18:27

knew there was something quote different

18:29

about me .

18:30

Well , we only have a long time ago , Right yeah

18:33

?

18:34

but there that kind of ties to that feeling

18:36

and being a recluse . Right , let's hide this , let's not

18:38

let people see it . Plus

18:40

, I was surrounded by some very quote

18:42

overbearing philosophies

18:44

with religion and parents , and my

18:46

parents were great , they were loving people , but this

18:49

is how you're going to be , this is who you are , and

18:51

am I okay ? So then , of course , then I started to step

18:53

in and put my mask on and minimize my truth

18:55

, and

18:58

so that's what started to contribute to me not feeling

19:00

like I belong . So now let's take all

19:02

of that , bring it into high school , bring it into

19:04

college . I jumped really

19:07

quickly when I met my wife . I was

19:09

working at a

19:11

university as a food and beverage guy

19:13

. She worked for me

19:15

and I'm like , oh , I connect

19:17

with her , this could work . Like , okay , cool , and

19:19

now I get to be , hey , I'm

19:21

going to make everybody else happy . So how do I step out

19:23

of being a recluse about this ? I

19:26

diminished the overbearingness of oh , look

19:28

, he is . Oh , he's a great guy , he's

19:30

getting married . And then , you know , grandkids

19:32

came along and all this sort of stuff . I love my kids , I'm

19:34

. I will never regret , you know

19:37

, this whole experience . But suddenly

19:39

, all those check boxes . Justin started getting

19:41

unchecked . I don't have to hide , I don't have

19:43

to deal with the overbearing thoughts . I mean , yes

19:46

, parents had other bearing thoughts because I didn't marry somebody

19:48

of our own faith , whatever . But the minimizing

19:50

. And suddenly guess what I belonged

19:52

? Oh , the family loved

19:55

me , they thought I was great , and all this sort of stuff . So

19:58

then the divorce happens . Everything

20:00

happened all over again . I felt

20:02

like I had to go back into hiding because they wouldn't accept me

20:05

for who I was . And the overbearingness

20:07

of you you've disappointed us , you're ruining

20:09

our , you know your faith in God , and blah , blah , blah , blah , blah . So everything

20:11

happened again and suddenly I didn't feel like I belonged

20:13

. So then I

20:15

started seeking it out in our gay

20:18

community in many ways , everything from you

20:20

know hooking up constantly

20:23

and all this sort of stuff to , hey , any

20:25

guy that came along , let's

20:27

go , let's put the white picket

20:29

fence up and call it a deal , right , because

20:31

it was all those . Things were in conflict

20:33

, right . And

20:36

that was really in the moment that I

20:38

started putting things in perspective of wait

20:40

. I'm just repeating this pattern . I

20:43

had a lot of good relationships not a lot , not

20:46

like thousands , but some good relationships

20:48

building up to when I did meet my husband and

20:52

the one thing I saw that

20:55

really brought me into that relationship

20:58

and has probably been the sustaining

21:00

factor of 22 years

21:02

together . He

21:05

never wants me to hide . He

21:07

probably gets a little embarrassed at times , like when I did a stand-up

21:09

comedy routine recently , but

21:14

there's not that feeling of I can't be who

21:16

I'm meant to be . He makes

21:18

me very , very much feel like

21:20

I belong . And the other thing that kicked

21:22

in is , in the midst of that whole experience of

21:24

coming out , I worked for an organization

21:26

that was very warm and welcoming of

21:28

LGBTQ . So

21:31

when I stepped into my next role , I'm just like I'm

21:33

going to be out . And now , in the

21:35

company that I have the pleasure of working for

21:38

, I'm very quote out , but

21:40

I do it in such a way that it's coming from . I'm never

21:43

going to hide . I'm never going to be overbearing and

21:45

shove this down somebody's throat . I'm

21:47

never going to expect others to minimize

21:49

who they are . Because here we go , we're right

21:51

in my brand , right . It's

21:54

such an amazing way to get to live . And

21:56

again , everyone listening . I'm not perfect

21:58

. I don't want to come off like , oh my God

22:00

, this guy , I'm not walking on water . I'm

22:03

too fat to walk on water , I float or anything

22:05

, but I feel like that's when you see

22:07

, those moments , justin , that you're like okay , I

22:09

just keep putting the piece of the puzzle together , the

22:11

piece of the puzzle together .

22:17

Yeah , it's interesting because I'm hearing a couple of the

22:19

themes of finding

22:22

the places where it's okay for

22:24

you to belong and

22:26

kind of pushing aside I

22:29

don't want to say running from , I didn't necessarily hear running from

22:31

but pushing aside places

22:34

that aren't serving you

22:36

. Because

22:38

we do . I mean , if we're those

22:42

of us who have the privilege to

22:44

have that agency over our

22:46

lives and I think that's an important

22:48

thing to call out is that not everyone

22:50

has that agency in their lives

22:52

to be able to move

22:54

into or move out of communities

22:58

that aren't serving them well . And

23:02

that's where I hope to do some of

23:04

the work in getting people to understand like

23:06

, hey , we need to make

23:08

room for other people so that they don't need

23:10

to .

23:11

Yeah , Well

23:14

, the thing is is , if we don't make room for that , we're

23:18

actually causing

23:20

one of the first pieces

23:22

of your process . We

23:24

are contributing to people becoming recluses

23:27

as soon as we tell somebody

23:29

put your mask on and this is how you have to show up . We're

23:32

guilty of it and this is why I always talk

23:34

about I'm never going to . I'm

23:37

never going to , in the grandest scheme

23:40

of things , say I don't want somebody to be who they

23:42

are . My

23:45

caveat to that is

23:48

provided you

23:50

being who you are is not emotionally

23:53

or physically hurting somebody else , Because

23:57

the minute you're like , okay , I'm going to be an

24:01

evangelical Christian that says LGBTQ

24:03

people should be not on the planet , I'm sorry

24:05

you don't get to be who you are . You're hurting some people

24:07

. But if you say I want

24:10

to be an evangelical Christian that says

24:12

help me understand you better , I'm

24:14

going to probably have a more open conversation

24:16

about that . But if you're

24:18

pushing me into wanting to go hide , you

24:22

don't fit in my world , Because then the overbearingness

24:25

is showing up . You're trying to minimize me into being

24:27

who I'm supposed to be and you are not creating

24:29

any sense of belonging for anybody

24:32

. And I know it's a big call for us

24:34

to kind of push those virtues

24:37

and values out there into the world . But

24:40

I would love it if none of this had to be happening

24:42

. Right , that's a different

24:44

space .

24:45

Right , yeah

24:48

, it's . So . I'm coming back again

24:50

, I think , to that authenticity piece of like the

24:52

one

24:54

of El's , and that's something

24:56

that I don't think it has to be in

24:58

authenticity , I don't know . I go

25:01

back to like and I tell the story . A lot

25:03

of I once worked with authenticity

25:08

because if you're an asshole

25:11

, that just means you can get into

25:13

gas , right , but nobody

25:15

wakes up in the morning and says I want to

25:17

be an asshole today . I

25:20

think it's .

25:23

There's a certain resident of Florida

25:25

, I think , does that we won't be there .

25:31

I mean , the thing

25:34

is there is something about

25:36

it's

25:39

actually tapping back to their perceived

25:41

survival and

25:44

so , thinking about whatever

25:47

it is I

25:50

don't love to talk about the extreme cases like

25:52

assholes in Florida , but

25:56

I think that we in

26:00

general , we

26:02

want to do good . Yes

26:04

, we also number one need to survive

26:06

, and so it's when we feel

26:08

that our survival is threatening that

26:10

we are going to exclude someone

26:13

else potentially , but

26:15

I don't think that's our default mode .

26:16

I mean , we're I

26:19

would agree , and

26:21

maybe this will help the listeners a little bit . This

26:25

is one of the most pivotal moments in me being

26:29

trained as a coach . My

26:32

instructor we're working on

26:34

All the coaching I do is based in

26:36

your energetic profiles and all this sort of

26:38

stuff . So she threw a really interesting

26:40

scenario at us . So

26:44

a guy goes and he murders three people . How

26:47

does that make you feel Well , of course

26:49

, how do you think it's going to make anybody go ? Oh , yeah , nah

26:51

, nah , nah , nah , nah , nah , right . And

26:53

so we were playing with the energetic chart that like

26:55

well , does that make you feel angry , does it make you

26:57

feel confused ? So how

26:59

could it make you feel love and empathy

27:01

? Most

27:04

of us are like no , not going to happen , right . So

27:08

she kind of let all that hubbub happen , right

27:10

. And then she said okay . So now let me reposition

27:12

the question . This

27:15

guy murders three people , but

27:20

in that moment he

27:22

was doing the very best he could , with

27:25

what he had at his disposal , to

27:27

be who he was . It

27:30

actually starts to change how you perceive something

27:32

, because

27:35

you start to see somebody through a different lens

27:37

. Maybe

27:40

he was trying to belong , maybe

27:43

he was acting out of some sense of somebody

27:45

who was really overbearing in his life

27:47

. Maybe he was

27:49

coming out of his reclusive

27:51

state and going this is how I'm going to be seen . And

27:54

maybe he was minimizing some other side

27:56

of him for all this time and suddenly it just popped

27:59

. When

28:01

you start to embrace other

28:04

possibilities , I

28:07

think that's and for me that's where I feel like I

28:09

got some of my humility from was

28:11

okay , but what else could be possible ? How

28:14

else could I look at this ?

28:17

Yeah , yeah

28:19

, and I think that I would also add

28:22

in , like what don't I know ? You

28:27

know I've improved and

28:29

I'm not amazing at it , but

28:31

I've improved at withholding

28:33

judgment on

28:35

many , many things , because

28:38

I don't know the whole story and

28:40

I want to wait until I know the whole story before

28:42

I start making a lot of judgment , and

28:46

it's interesting . So over the past

28:48

three years since I started writing the book

28:50

, I have found

28:53

new depths of allowing

28:56

grace for others , for myself

28:59

, because I'm like , if I'm

29:01

going to write this book about

29:03

accepting others , where

29:05

belonging is created at the intersection of authenticity

29:08

and acceptance , so if I have to really think about

29:10

how do I find acceptance

29:12

for others that may not

29:15

have the same values as me , because

29:17

that's what I'm asking of people I have to be

29:19

able to do that , and so it has

29:22

brought me to allowing

29:25

space for information that I don't

29:27

know .

29:29

A storeAnnizen , and

29:32

when you

29:34

put that out in the world , it

29:37

also feeds the fire for the world to bring

29:40

that back to you . How can the

29:42

world show me empathy ? How can the world

29:44

show me another way of looking at something

29:46

? It's hard because we

29:49

as humans like , nope , this is the way I see

29:51

things . Okay , that's fine . But

29:53

what happens when you say

29:55

it's not this black and white ? I mean , you

29:58

know the work that I do and probably what you do . I

30:01

can't see things as black and white . There's too many

30:03

nuances to like what's

30:05

gonna happen when somebody comes out of the closet

30:08

and I can't say , well , here , just this , exactly

30:10

what's gonna happen ? This gonna happen , your

30:12

ex-wives gonna do this , your ex-husband's gonna do this

30:14

. It doesn't happen

30:16

that way . Yeah , I can't even tell

30:18

you that you're gonna get embraced by the entire LGBTQ

30:21

community , because that's not gonna happen

30:23

either . But when

30:26

we look at it from that other side

30:28

, justin and go and again , this is work . This

30:30

is daily work for me to try to really

30:32

like bite my tongue with certain people

30:34

in Florida To just see

30:36

things and like , okay , well , let's see . But

30:38

how else can I see this ? How

30:41

else can I try to understand that , and this is

30:43

where I think we as a society

30:45

right now are really struggling to like exercise

30:48

this empathy energy

30:50

, but

30:52

through work like what you're doing , because if we could have

30:54

any empathy , how does that then

30:57

create more belonging ? Instantly

30:59

just having empathy creates belonging

31:02

. It says I

31:04

see you , I hear you . I may not agree with

31:06

you , but there's at least a doorway that's

31:08

now a little more open , right

31:11

, I still see you as a human Right

31:13

.

31:17

Yeah , I love in this conversation . I think we have

31:19

definitely hit on authenticity

31:21

finding yourself , understanding

31:23

yourself , and then also that

31:25

acceptance piece of finding

31:27

empathy for others , allowing grace , understanding

31:30

that we don't have all the information all the time

31:32

. So I feel like we have

31:34

definitely hit both sides of

31:38

the scale there on acceptance

31:41

and authenticity . So

31:43

, rick , I wanna thank you for your time

31:45

today . I'm just noticing we I'm

31:48

trying to keep it to 20 to 30 minutes and I think we're gonna

31:50

be right in there . So I've enjoyed

31:52

the conversation . I have a feeling we're probably gonna keep

31:54

talking about this . I have a feeling .

31:56

so I have a feeling too , and thank you

31:58

for the opportunity . I always I love getting

32:00

to be on somebody else's podcast and

32:02

go , let's jam , let's jam and just see

32:04

what we can throw throughout there in the world

32:06

that maybe will impact somebody or

32:08

several people's lives or get somebody thinking differently

32:11

. So thank you for giving me the privilege

32:13

of being on your podcast then .

32:15

Thank you so much , rick , and where

32:17

of things

32:20

that you might want people to find , you've got your

32:22

podcast available kind of everywhere

32:24

right , and it's called .

32:25

there's two of them . The first one

32:27

is Life Uncloseted

32:29

and the second one is 40 plus

32:31

gay men , gay talk , I mean . Find them

32:33

anywhere podcasts are at . And then , if you wanted

32:35

to follow me on anything Instagram

32:37

, the Rick Clemens or my website

32:39

, rickclemens C-L-E-M-O-N-Scom

32:41

. That's something by

32:43

me .

32:44

Rick . Well , thank you so much for

32:47

joining me today . I

32:49

enjoyed the conversation Hopefully everyone

32:51

else does and join us

32:53

again for another episode of the Creating Bullying

32:55

Podcast . Thanks , upbeat

33:03

music playing .