0:10

Hello , welcome to another episode

0:12

of the Creating Belonging podcast . Today

0:14

, I have with me Jim Conti . We

0:17

actually you know what's hilarious is

0:19

Jim ? I was introduced

0:21

to by one of our season one

0:23

guests , ld

0:26

. I think you guys went to college

0:28

together , right ? I think that's right . Yeah

0:30

, the original connection there . Yep , yeah

0:32

, yeah . And so Jim and I have connected

0:35

since and , funny enough , we

0:37

actually live like a block or two from

0:39

each other Like almost across the street .

0:41

Yeah , it's kind of funny Small world moment

0:43

for sure .

0:43

But connected by someone who lives in LA , almost across the street . Yeah , it's kind

0:45

of funny Small world moment for sure . Connected by someone who lives in LA ? Yeah

0:50

, I love that . So , janet , if

0:52

you wouldn't mind introducing

0:54

yourself to our listeners .

0:56

Yeah , yeah , yeah . Well , thank you so much for having me here

0:58

today . To everyone listening , my name is Jim Conti

1:00

. In the professional world , I currently

1:03

serve as the talent partner at Hyde Park

1:05

Venture Partners , which is an early stage venture capital

1:07

firm headquartered in Chicago . My

1:12

role I do HR consulting across the portfolio , so I come from an HR

1:14

operator seat used to run HR at software

1:16

companies here in Chicago and now I get to advise companies

1:18

on that practice , which is a lot of fun . I've

1:20

been doing this for a little over two years now . Lot

1:24

of fun . Been doing this for a little over two years now . Um , and on the personal

1:26

side , uh , as justin mentioned , live in the chicago , um , the chicago ecosystem , but specifically

1:29

in the andersonville neighborhood . Um , I've been here

1:31

since 2007 and so very much , uh

1:33

, consider myself a chicagoan at this point . Um

1:35

, but , um , uh , loving , loving

1:37

life in the city and uh , love

1:40

, love to get out and explore the various neighborhoods we have here . So

1:42

it's a , it's a great spot thank

1:44

you .

1:45

You know what's funny ? I've been in chicago since 2006

1:47

and so , like we've been in chicago the same

1:49

time frame , we live , you

1:52

know , a block from each other .

1:54

Seriously , it took a mutual connection

1:56

in la

1:58

and yet here we are , and yet here we are chatting on a podcast

2:00

. I I love it , I love it

2:03

.

2:03

So I think our listeners

2:05

are typically used to kind

2:09

of disclosing of identities upfront

2:11

. So just before we get started , you

2:13

know you introduced yourself a little bit , but if there are

2:15

any other identities that you wouldn't mind

2:18

sharing with us today , yeah

2:20

, of course , of course .

2:21

Yeah , I think it's so interesting to talk about identities because

2:23

you can almost pick it apart from any different

2:25

lens or perspective . But some of the like kind

2:27

of bigger buckets that I'd say that very

2:30

much kind of make up how I view my

2:32

seat in the world or my perspective in the world from

2:45

a community perspective and , and um , uh , very much , uh , a part of my life today . Um , and

2:47

so , uh , that's definitely a big part of it . Um , I also identify as both a plant dad

2:49

and a dog dad , and so I've got two dogs

2:51

golden retriever and a yellow lab um

2:53

, and a few more plants that I'm I'm proud to admit , but

2:56

um , uh , across both of them they are , they

2:58

are the things that help me slow down in this world

3:00

. I live at a pretty fast pace , so my

3:02

plants and my pups they help me just kind of take

3:04

a step back and take a deep breath . So I appreciate

3:06

that . I mentioned before that

3:08

I moved to Chicago in 2007 and been

3:10

here since . So , while I do identify as a Chicagoan

3:13

, I grew up in New Hampshire and I think that

3:15

that's a pretty special place to grow up . It's not a big

3:17

state . There's not a lot of us there , but

3:19

it's a place that I think really formed a lot of who I

3:21

am today and the community that I was

3:23

a part of there as well . I

3:26

went to college in Boston . I went to Boston College

3:28

, which is interesting because it's a Catholic

3:31

university , but I'm not Catholic myself , but

3:33

the way that that played out in kind of my

3:35

lived experience at the university was very much a

3:37

focus on volunteership and service

3:39

to others and really thinking about how

3:41

we were charting a course that

3:43

did well by others in the path that we took

3:45

after university . And so , while the Catholicism

3:48

piece is not a part that I identify with , that service

3:50

to others element , that volunteerism , that giving

3:52

back to community , is something that was deeply

3:54

entrenched in me at that time and I would say is a big kind

3:56

of hallmark of how I interact with the world

3:59

today . And then

4:01

I think the final one that I'll put on there is that I'm

4:03

a traveler . I love to go explore new places . I mentioned

4:05

about exploring neighborhoods in Chicago but

4:07

like , give me a plane ticket , put me on

4:09

a plane , let me go explore some neighborhoods somewhere else

4:11

in the world . Whenever I travel , I rarely buy tickets

4:14

for things . I mostly just like leave my Airbnb

4:16

or hotel and just wander for the day , love

4:18

to just see where the steps take me , and

4:26

so just love to explore , travel , experience new things , and so very much an openness to

4:28

that as well . So I feel like that's a big part of who I am too .

4:30

Yeah , I love that . Two things I want to pick out

4:32

there . Number one is identity

4:35

by kind of geographic region that you grew

4:37

up in . I think some people , some

4:39

people anchor in that like maybe if they , if

4:41

you've moved away from that , um

4:44

, and I , I guess I talk about it a lot but I don't

4:46

think of it as much as an identity like growing up

4:48

in rural iowa very much shaped how

4:51

I see the world .

4:53

Um , although you know I'm a

4:55

chicagoman at this point , you know right

4:58

, exactly , I think you know we as humans

5:00

love to find shortcuts , right , like we as humans love

5:02

to find these like cool . This means that and

5:04

then I , you , you know , kind of figure something out . And so

5:06

for me at least a little bit , to clarify , like I

5:08

grew up in New Hampshire , my , my dad , still

5:10

lives in the same house . They came home from the hospital

5:13

to when I was born and I realized that that

5:15

is something that's pretty unique in the world

5:17

these days . So like when I go home for the holidays , like I

5:19

actually am still going to my childhood bedroom , which is kind

5:21

of weird , but I think that , like you know

5:23

, being able to kind of say , like I grew up in New Hampshire , it's part

5:26

of New England , my dad's still there there's

5:28

elements of value . There's elements of how

5:30

you communicate or interact with the world . There's ways

5:32

that you know just political perspectives

5:35

or whatever , that it can kind of communicate or encapsulate a

5:37

little bit no-transcript

5:52

Chicagoan and a plant dad Right , and just

5:54

get those kinds of different perspectives and give people some of those

5:57

easier shortcuts to understand who I am .

5:59

Yeah , yeah , I love that . And the

6:01

second one is , um the

6:04

having attended a Catholic university , so I

6:06

don't think about it often , but I um

6:08

went to DePaul here in Chicago

6:11

Catholic , and that

6:13

was very much a part of the university

6:15

mission . Was , you know , service to others

6:18

? That , um , you know , I

6:20

wasn't raised Catholic and I

6:22

don't I'm not Catholic today , but

6:24

I love that about my experience was

6:27

that the service aspect of

6:29

you know of education

6:31

.

6:31

Yep , yep , very much so , and I think that

6:34

it's interesting because when I think

6:36

about the path that I'm on in life , I don't

6:38

think I would be on this call with you today

6:40

had I not attended a Catholic university , which

6:42

is kind of a really funny thing to say . But

6:44

the thing that brought me to Chicago was

6:46

a post-grad service program

6:48

that I've learned about while at VC

6:50

, and the openness to doing a post-grad

6:53

service program as opposed to going directly into a job

6:55

was never something I thought about before

6:57

being exposed to the university , right . So

6:59

it's kind of a funny thing to kind of note

7:01

that the Catholic nature of the university

7:03

I went to put me on a path that got me to Chicago

7:05

and got me on the path of things you know , decisions that

7:08

I've made across time to be able to get here , and

7:10

so , while it's a part of my background

7:12

that I don't identify with , there's

7:14

the Catholicism piece specifically , that

7:16

what that meant at the place that I was

7:18

at put me on a path to

7:20

get me where I am today , which is still just . It's kind of wild

7:22

to map that back a little bit .

7:24

Yeah , yeah . I

7:27

sometimes reflect on those things of like that

7:29

one little thing , that pivotal thing , that like landed

7:32

where I am today , right , small

7:35

decisions . It makes me think of a movie

7:37

sliding doors , yeah .

7:40

I haven't heard that reference in a while . I love it . Okay , I haven't

7:42

heard that reference in a while , justin , that's showing our

7:44

age .

7:45

I love it . Okay , so

7:47

we could probably keep going in this

7:50

vein for a while , but

7:55

let's dig into some of the work of creating belonging . So before we

7:57

started today , we were talking a little bit about some

8:00

of your experiences and kind of relating

8:02

your experiences to the

8:04

overbearing part of the creating belonging

8:06

model . And so , just as a refresher

8:08

, this is when we are high on

8:10

authenticity , low on acceptance

8:13

, and so oftentimes we've got blinders

8:16

on . We're just assuming that the rest of

8:18

the world sees the world the way that we do

8:20

, and we're

8:22

there quite often . I know that I

8:25

am there quite often and

8:27

we've got to take some time to pull back those blinders

8:29

and understand that not everyone sees the world the way that we

8:31

do shift into

8:33

more of that acceptance . But I would love to hear some

8:36

of your experiences of

8:38

being in that place of overbearing .

8:40

Yeah , yeah , well , even a half

8:42

step back here , justin . I think what's interesting about our

8:45

conversation about the framework initially is

8:47

that like and like disagree with me , if you

8:49

want , but I feel like the overbearing category

8:51

is almost the one that folks are most nervous

8:54

about , right , like , it's the one that , at least

8:56

when I was reading the descriptions when we were talking about the framework

8:58

initially , it was the one that I was like , oh , I don't want to

9:00

be in that category . Like , that's not , that's not where I want

9:02

to be . Right , it's the one that feels like you're

9:05

true to self but not to others , and that feels

9:07

, I

9:17

don't know , I'm a big empath and so I was . I was pretty

9:20

nervous about it , but when we were chatting

9:22

about it , I a way that has been , I think

9:24

, impactful to both myself and to others too . So , so

9:27

, as we were chatting about it , I was , I was willing to embrace

9:29

the overbearing and a little bit of like , well , okay

9:31

, here's some stories , but just to say

9:33

, like , I also reflect that I think these are some of the moments

9:35

that I've learned the most about myself

9:37

and about others and and that kind of piece there . So

9:40

, so , as we were chatting about one

9:42

of the stories that that kind of triggered

9:44

for me for my personal life was a relationship with

9:46

a good friend of mine . So this is a

9:48

friend that I met while I was at school actually

9:50

going back to university here and

9:53

so the two of us have some shared

9:55

parts of our identity . We both identify within the LGBT

9:58

community , both have a kind

10:00

of adhere to that service element that I was talking

10:02

about . At the university we actually met at a service club

10:04

and so

10:07

we have these elements that kind of drew us together and

10:09

helped form a relationship . At the

10:11

same time , we have parts of our identities that are different

10:13

. So I spoke earlier a little bit about my

10:15

identity , but I don't think I shared this specific

10:18

point . But I'm a white cis

10:20

male and so the world that I live

10:22

in is a world that largely looks like me , especially here

10:24

in the US . And the world that I live in is a world that largely looks

10:26

like me , especially here in the US . And the friend that I'm referencing she's

10:28

a Latina female and so someone that grew up in a household where

10:30

it was just her mom Her mom had

10:32

moved to the US before

10:34

she was born , but within her own adulthood

10:37

and so had a lot of

10:40

migrant mentality in

10:42

the home and stuff like that . And

10:44

so after college moved to Chicago . Both

10:47

of us moved to Chicago independently for work and stuff

10:49

and maintain our friendship and while

10:51

here kind of rekindled our friendship and really

10:53

got very , very close . And so I

10:56

just kind of marched through friendship as I marched through all

10:59

of my friendships , which was making plans and

11:01

communicating a lot , and it's just

11:03

as an extrovert that's who I am in the world . And

11:05

so you're just going to hear from me , probably more than you want

11:07

to . And there was a moment

11:09

there's probably about , um , ooh

11:12

, probably about six years after we graduated

11:14

, um , so we've been in Chicago for about that period

11:17

of time together and we had made

11:19

plans to hang out and she came over and

11:21

we were going to go out to dinner and she was like hey , before we go out to dinner

11:23

, can we talk for a minute ? And I was like

11:25

sure , and we sat down

11:27

and basically she was like this

11:30

is too much , you're too much . And

11:32

I was like OK , that's offensive , like what do

11:34

you mean ? I'm too much . And of course that reaction just

11:36

proves the point , Like

11:42

let's be communicating . Was that the

11:45

way that she navigated the world

11:47

was different than the way that I did that she

11:49

. She tended she was more of an introvert

11:51

, so she tended to like more alone time . She

11:54

was fairly private . She didn't like digital communication . So

11:56

when I would text questions , it was not her preference

11:58

to like text . A response back she was like let's just

12:00

like meet and like hang out a little bit , but

12:03

at the same time I'm pretty high energy and so when

12:05

we would hang out she was just like it's just a lot , and

12:07

if we hang out too often it's too much . And

12:10

my first reaction was I was hurt . My first

12:12

reaction is that I was . You know

12:14

, this is someone I consider one of my best friends and all of

12:16

a sudden I'm being told that I'm not a good friend

12:19

and my first reaction was like screw it . Like if

12:26

this is how you think about me , this is who I am , like I'm

12:28

out . And fortunately that

12:30

is not how the conversation went and my brain had

12:32

a second thought . But

12:34

really the core of what I

12:36

feel like I walked away from in that situation is

12:38

that a relationship is made by the

12:40

two or more people but we'll say two in

12:42

this place two people that are there , and

12:44

it's about those two people finding their equal

12:47

equal is the wrong word their

12:49

shared contributions to

12:51

the relationship and that those need to

12:53

match in some capacity , that the energy I was

12:55

putting in was too much and it was overshadowing

12:58

the energy she was able to , or willing to , put

13:00

into our relationship . Right , and so

13:02

what it did , was it kind of reset , reset us back

13:04

to saying , great , how do we put in energy

13:06

levels that feel similar and are a little bit more matched

13:09

and are a little bit more at the right balance

13:11

with each other ? And so some of the ways that that actually kind

13:13

of played out is that like one um , as

13:15

we um , uh , planned

13:18

times to hang out , what I would , what we

13:20

would do , is kind of like at the end of one of our hangouts we would

13:22

plan when our next hangout would be , but we

13:24

would choose it at a cadence that kind of worked for her . So sometimes

13:26

we'd go for like two months without hanging out one-on-one

13:28

because like there were other things

13:30

that she had going on , or she had travel coming up

13:32

, or you know just a moment in life where

13:34

she's feeling a little overwhelmed and you need to take

13:36

a step back . And so what was

13:38

really cool about the solution we arrived at was

13:40

that my extrovert , high energy

13:43

self was satiated because I knew

13:45

when the next plan was . I knew that , you know , I had the

13:47

security of knowing that the friendship was still there

13:49

and we had , you know , kind of the next time to see each

13:51

other . But she had that space . She

13:53

needed the little bit of breathing room that she needed for

13:56

the high energy that I could bring to a relationship

13:58

. And so , you know , it was a really

14:00

interesting , as we were talking about the

14:02

framework here , one of the stories that I thought of

14:04

because , again , like I said , it was a it was a moment

14:07

where I really felt like I was being called out for being a bad

14:09

friend . And what she was very quick to clarify

14:11

is like this isn't about a good friend or a bad friend . This

14:13

is about the two of us finding a friendship that

14:16

actually works for us . That is actually the balance of

14:18

the two of us and not just one person's preference

14:20

over and over and over again . And

14:23

so it's a mantra

14:25

, lesson , some phrase like that

14:27

, somewhere like that that I try and bring into a lot

14:29

of my relationships . Now try and understand , like how

14:31

much do you want , like , what does that look

14:33

like for us to develop a closeness or

14:36

a friendship and how do we maintain that ? And

14:38

taking a bit of a step back to recognize that the

14:40

way I prefer to do it , which is like , great , let's hang out all the

14:42

time , is not how actually a lot of people want

14:44

to do it . Um , but that was , that was

14:46

for me , a big moment to kind of take a step back

14:48

and recognize that , like , friendships are

14:50

not just about getting along or hanging out

14:53

. It's about finding alignment as you continue

14:55

to evolve together , and so that that

14:57

was one of the stories that I think triggered for me when I was thinking about overbearing

14:59

yeah , thank

15:02

you for that .

15:04

So I'm just thinking about

15:07

you know you mentioned a little

15:09

bit of kind of how

15:11

that's impacted your future relationships is thinking

15:13

about how you're creating that balance

15:16

so that both people

15:18

are kind of respected in the relationship

15:20

. I want to dig into that a little bit more in that

15:22

journey of learning

15:25

. And you know , how

15:27

did you , how did you start

15:29

to apply that in other relationships ?

15:31

Yeah , yeah , yeah , yeah . Well , in a

15:33

very honest way , like it came out at work quite a bit

15:36

right , because working in HR , we're

15:38

dealing with people every single day , day

15:40

in and day out , and so I

15:42

would never know what the next thing would be that was going

15:44

to walk in my office , and so

15:46

, whether intentionally or unintentionally , we're setting up a wall

15:48

for one of the other stories that we chatted a little bit about , which was from

15:50

a professional setting , and so this

15:52

was after this conversation had happened

15:54

. It was when I was at a tech

15:57

company here in Chicago running HR and

16:00

we had a relatively young employee

16:02

population , and so I

16:04

had an employee come in who was our first

16:07

employee who had had a kiddo

16:09

while on staff with us . So we had people that we'd

16:11

hired who had kids , but this is the first

16:13

person that actually took advantage of our parental leave policy

16:15

, like actually went on leave and came back and

16:17

was going through the transition of going from non-parent to parent

16:20

actually on staff , and so she

16:22

dropped a calendar invite on my calendar

16:24

and came in and closed my office door

16:26

and was just like clearly frustrated

16:29

, like just you could just feel the prickle

16:31

coming off of her and I was like oh gosh , like okay , what's

16:39

going on , what's happening , and she sat down and kind of walked me through this

16:41

story where the day before her manager had scheduled a meeting at like 5.30

16:43

PM and she

16:46

had rearranged childcare so

16:48

that she could stay for the meeting and her partner was

16:50

picking up the kid at the daycare instead of it

16:52

was her day to do it , and some other kind of logistics

16:54

like that . And then she proceeded

16:57

to share with me that in the meeting itself

16:59

there was about 10 or 15 minutes at the

17:01

start of meeting , which was just kind of like people were showing up late , they

17:03

were getting a snack , there was just like some social banter

17:05

, and then the meeting started and then it ended

17:08

later than the scheduled time and

17:10

she was furious . And

17:12

so , going back to , uh

17:15

, the conversation we're just having about that friendship

17:17

, right , where I recognize , where I had

17:19

this moment , where I was given the opportunity to recognize that

17:21

the way that I approach the world , the way

17:23

that I build relationships , the way that I operate , is

17:25

not the way that everyone does and we need to find the balance in there

17:28

. Kind of pulled from that memory

17:30

right , I was like okay , like I usually stay

17:32

till like six , like what's going on here , like

17:34

where are we going ? And she , she , she walked

17:37

me through the impact that it had on her right

17:39

, like her partner had to leave early from work

17:41

. It was a

17:44

late in the day addition to the calendar and so he wasn't

17:46

able to get to the daycare on time , so they got charged

17:48

a late fee . The meeting

17:51

ended late , which meant that she got home after dinner

17:53

which was kind of the family's time to get together

17:55

every day and was just there for bedtime . And

17:58

again , this was probably about three or four months after

18:00

coming back from leave . So the kiddo was still super

18:02

young , right , and so , kind of walking

18:04

through this , I was like it was just a real eye-opening

18:06

moment as to the experience of parents in

18:08

the workplace . She was one of the first parents that I

18:11

had worked with and I did not have kids myself . I

18:14

was able to be in that conversation and be able

18:16

to really appreciate the world

18:19

that she was opening up to my

18:21

eyes , the reality that I didn't

18:23

quite understand kind of thing , as

18:26

you're asking about how

18:28

it impacted other places . I was able

18:30

to be a really safe space for her to come with a

18:33

really frustrating thing and be able to strategize

18:35

with her about how to better approach her

18:37

manager about kind of

18:39

policy and procedure around meeting scheduling

18:41

, agenda , setting respective time

18:43

when in a meeting , and also for her to be able

18:45

to put the boundaries on her days that she was able to do drop

18:47

off and pick up accordingly . And she's

18:50

still at that organization is one of the highest performers on that team

18:52

. She's still on the same team that she was on , so like it

18:54

worked . But it definitely took

18:56

that ability to take a step back and just be able

18:58

to listen to someone and

19:00

help them create the conditions of success for

19:02

themselves and that , like my role , there was just

19:04

kind of like sending some emails

19:07

clarifying some policies and then but

19:09

but creating the space for it to happen , kind of thing , and

19:11

I really look at my friend as someone that really helped me understand

19:14

that ability to , um , to

19:16

really kind of like take the step back

19:18

and see what someone else needs and recognize

19:20

what you can give to help that person

19:23

realize what it is that they need yeah

19:25

, there's the .

19:28

I love this idea that learning

19:30

happens in overbearing , but I want to reframe

19:32

it a little bit because I

19:34

think that I think learning can happen

19:37

out of overbearing when we are

19:39

willing to take on the perspective of others

19:41

, like when we push into acceptance

19:44

and take on that perspective , and

19:46

I think that overbearing

19:48

becomes a problem when we're willfully

19:51

ignorant .

19:53

Yes yes when I think of like that

19:55

that split sorry , I think of that

19:57

split second , where either you know someone brings something

19:59

to you , right , they kind of call you out on it , and either

20:01

it's the fight or flight response a little bit right . It's

20:03

like either you get pissed right and you just you go off

20:05

the handle , or you get pissed right and you just you go off the handle , or you get your brain

20:08

to go to the tell me more , tell

20:10

me more side of it . Right , tell me more . Why

20:12

, why Tell me more ? Tell me more right

20:14

, get that educational piece where you can really

20:16

understand that impact .

20:18

Yeah , when you dig

20:20

into acceptance , dig into taking

20:22

on other's perspectives , that's

20:24

where the learning happens , and

20:28

so I love that , that conversation of kind

20:30

of pulling that out of of

20:32

there , because there's , you're

20:34

right , that overbearing , I think for everyone

20:36

, for

20:40

even for me , is the scary one of like I I

20:42

think I joke about it in the book and I know that I've joked

20:44

about it not in the

20:46

book that , like I don't share a lot of my own stories

20:48

of overbearing because

20:51

like they're not great stories

20:53

, they don't look good on me

20:55

, right , and so we want to

20:58

be careful about how we do that . And

21:00

I also think you know some of I think

21:02

the , the stories that you've shared

21:04

are really great short stories of your

21:06

character and kind of leaning into that learning

21:08

moment , um , and some

21:10

of them , you know , some

21:12

of our overbearing stories take even more time

21:15

for the learning , unfortunately

21:17

, yep or um , you know

21:20

, kind of like that old saying of um , uh

21:23

, all lessons

21:25

that we don't learn keep coming back until

21:27

we learn them . Like I'm

21:29

screwing that up . Well , I'll edit that

21:31

out , probably , uh

21:34

, but movie . So , moving on , I , I

21:36

, there's another topic that I want to dig into

21:38

with you and so

21:42

earlier in the creating belonging

21:44

work , I really wanted to make sure that I was

21:46

like getting a wide , you know , wide

21:48

perspectives of identities and

21:52

, and , you know , also

21:55

understanding that my lens

21:57

as a gay man , you know , is

21:59

going to influence the work . And over

22:01

the past six months , I've really been leaning into that

22:03

because I do think that , you know , lgbtq

22:06

folks are under attack across

22:09

the U ? S in different States in

22:11

different ways and so

22:13

, you know , this season of the podcast

22:15

we're probably going to see more of our

22:18

people , lgbtq people , on the podcast

22:20

. Um , because I I think

22:22

it's it's worth leaning in there a

22:24

bit . But I'd love to hear a bit about

22:26

your journey , your

22:28

professional journey and

22:30

balancing , you

22:33

know , your sexuality in

22:36

. You know either hiding it

22:38

or , you know , being

22:40

out . I'd love to hear a bit of your story .

22:42

Yeah , yeah , oh gosh . So

22:45

it really does feel like a journey , it really does

22:47

feel like an evolution . So when I started my

22:49

career , I mentioned earlier in the conversation here

22:51

that I came to Chicago with a post-grad service

22:53

program . So that program placed me

22:55

as a middle school teacher here in Chicago , and

22:57

so the feedback

23:00

that I was given early on in

23:02

that time is that you

23:04

need to learn the personalities of your students before

23:06

you start opening up about yourself . Ie like

23:08

don't fly

23:11

the rainbow flag on day , one kind of thing . And

23:13

I'll be honest , I was not

23:15

confident enough in myself to push back on that or to

23:17

feel like that was the wrong answer . I

23:20

was like , okay , great , and the

23:23

school community that I taught in was it

23:25

was a wonderful community . It

23:27

was on the west side of Chicago here . It

23:29

was a community that dealt with a lot of poverty

23:31

, drugs , violence . So there was a lot going on in

23:33

the neighborhood and I

23:36

struggled to find a moment where I

23:38

felt truly comfortable to be fully

23:40

expressing of who I am , and

23:42

so I actually at one point actually went

23:44

back to some of the program staff and kind of said

23:46

like listen , like I'm kind of struggling with this

23:48

code identity of being an educator and

23:50

being gay and like is there

23:52

anyone I can talk to about that ? And the

23:54

answer was no . Like they didn't know any gay

23:57

educators to like have me sit down for coffee

23:59

with to like talk about that experience

24:01

. And I think for me that was almost the

24:03

thing . It was like more flummoxing . I was like you

24:05

don't know any gay educators , like there's not a

24:07

single one you can like connect me with and

24:10

they're like not in our network . And so like it

24:12

really took me finding some people in my own , my own

24:14

circle to to kind of build some of those connections . But

24:16

coming

24:19

out of the classroom setting which which is

24:21

is a little bit of a different setting than other kinds of corporate

24:23

settings that I'd been in since then , just to kind of flag

24:25

that but

24:30

in the steps that I took from there , every single job switch that I had , I

24:32

was more and more open about my identity and so and that looked different

24:35

ways . So the next switch that I made was that I

24:37

didn't hide it , like if someone asked I would tell them

24:39

, and then the next job after that I

24:41

was , I would tell people . It was like part of my intro or

24:43

like make sure that it was part of , like you know , my first

24:45

conversation with people or something like that , all

24:48

the way up until today . The

24:51

relationship I find myself in today is not your standard

24:53

typical relationship . So even

24:55

in the vein of , I've become much

24:57

more comfortable in my gay identity , particularly

24:59

in a corporate and work setting and knowing

25:01

how I talk about that and my language around that

25:04

, and also like my bullshit meter too

25:06

. Apologies for the language here , but , like you

25:08

know , what I'm willing to accept or not accept in a , in a

25:10

, in a work setting . In that vein , on

25:15

my relationship side because it's an atypical relationship , I still find myself trying to understand

25:17

and navigate a little bit that there's still this part of my identity that

25:19

, like I'm , I'm evolving

25:22

, how it comes into the workplace and so in

25:24

that vein , you know it's been , it's been at first

25:26

at one job I didn't talk about that part

25:28

of my life . I just , you know , I was open about my

25:31

queerness but I was not open about my relationship

25:33

status . And then the next one , I was open about

25:35

relationship status but they were kind of kept far apart

25:37

. Now I'm at a point where it's

25:39

very integrated into my day-to-day with my

25:41

coworkers but my job is a very externally

25:43

facing job , so I don't bring it up

25:45

in those types of conversations very often , but

25:48

with my peers here internally I will , and

25:50

so it's I don't know . I don't know what that means in

25:52

terms of like you know , if we were to do an update , if

25:54

I do a job change at some point , what my

25:56

next evolution is going to be . But I do

25:58

. It's interesting because I do look at kind of job changes

26:00

as like milestone , as to like either

26:03

my comfort with my openness about

26:05

my language , for my

26:07

identity , as it kind of continues to come to the world . The

26:10

last thing I'll kind of flag here is that you know it's , it's

26:12

the world continues to change , and so I

26:14

agree with your , your point that you made about the guests that

26:16

you're having on the podcast this season

26:19

of of . You know , having some LGBTQ voices

26:21

being present and vocal is

26:23

really important at this moment in time . At

26:26

the same time , living in the city of Chicago it's a relatively progressive

26:28

city and so I've also had the privilege

26:30

of working in like relatively progressive environments

26:33

and so it's also been interesting to feel more

26:35

and more comfortable and more and more as though

26:37

what's the right word here , um

26:40

, that

26:43

people want to know but don't care as much

26:45

as they did before . It used to be a

26:47

salacious thing , right , that you had a gay coworker , and

26:49

now it's kind of like it's not

26:51

. It's not in the same way as it once was

26:54

for those of us that are of a certain generation

26:56

that like and I I think that you and

26:58

I identify a little bit in this way , but just like I was certain generation

27:00

when that was a really weird thing .

27:07

And now it's like almost table stakes . I don't know yeah reaction there . No , I think

27:09

there's um , you're making me think of , you

27:12

know a , the , the privilege , the luxury

27:14

of living in chicago and and

27:16

some of that automatic acceptance , because

27:19

I so

27:21

in my journey , when I , before I , moved to chicago

27:23

, um , you know , I

27:25

was working in an office in Des Moines , iowa

27:27

, and I was actually with the company that I moved to

27:29

Chicago with . It was a promotion

27:32

, but I was a smaller branch

27:34

in Des Moines and I

27:37

remember , if we look at the makeup of the

27:39

office at that point in time , there was a woman

27:41

that I worked with , woman who you know

27:43

living in Des Moines , iowa , and

27:50

I remember kind of being out

27:52

in the office there and

27:55

she would say I don't know

27:57

that she ever said it to my face , but

28:00

she told other people in the office she's like Justin's

28:03

too normal to be gay , like he's

28:05

, he's just in a phase and

28:07

he's gonna meet a nice woman and

28:10

settle down because he's

28:12

. She saw me as too quote , normal

28:14

, yeah , to be , and I'm like , wait

28:17

, what do you think a gay person is then ? Yes

28:19

, and , and then

28:21

I moved to chicago and I

28:23

was working in you know a

28:25

large bank , um

28:27

in the the you know corporate headquarters

28:30

learning development department , like half my team

28:32

was gay and so it was just

28:34

a total paradigm

28:37

shift in like oh yeah , we're all gay

28:39

here , like you're in .

28:40

You know that were the geography that you're

28:42

in can

28:53

really influence that

28:55

acceptance yeah , you

28:57

know what's fascinating , justin , is we've had a bit of a

28:59

theme around overbearing as a a concept

29:01

here on the , the podcast , the episode

29:04

. Um you , you were

29:06

in her overbearing moment . Right , you

29:08

were the recipient of the overbearing

29:10

right .

29:11

Yeah , absolutely Right . You

29:13

don't know that I've told that story yet , so

29:16

flag that story and there's another story , right

29:18

?

29:19

Everyone , there's a bonus episode coming soon . Get ready , get

29:21

ready .

29:22

I know , and you know it's funny

29:24

because I don't , I don't , I

29:27

still adore her , like I thought she was great

29:29

. So I don't , you know , I

29:31

don't mean ill of you

29:34

know for her in telling that story

29:36

, but it's just , you know , it's an interesting perspective

29:38

, yeah . One other thing that I

29:40

wanted to grab is something

29:43

I was thinking about , like you know , as

29:46

an educator so early in your career , kind

29:48

of like , hey , we don't really share much about

29:50

ourselves , um , with

29:53

our students , because , you

29:55

know , we kind of need to be this like agnostic

29:57

, almost figure . And

30:00

it actually made me think of , um

30:02

, andrew huberman . And if you listen

30:04

to andrew huberman , he's like what number

30:06

two podcast in the world . Um

30:08

, I listen to him regularly but

30:11

he talked like you'll always see him in his podcast

30:13

and he's like in a black button-down

30:16

shirt like full sleeves , and

30:19

he's admitted before on I don't know , in some

30:21

podcasts maybe his own , like he's covered in

30:23

tattoos , yeah , and

30:25

, like you know , talks about how

30:27

he puts on this persona in

30:30

his professional life as a

30:32

professor and in his podcasting

30:34

world of this very

30:37

like apolitical , agnostic

30:40

kind of person who

30:42

is just there to state the facts

30:44

, yeah , and so that's

30:47

where I'm at . I'm like thinking . I'm just thinking about

30:49

where are those places in life where

30:51

we have to be kind of generic

30:54

and is that okay ?

30:56

Ooh , that's a great question . Well

30:58

, I mean that's a great question

31:00

, justin . I think my first response comes back to

31:02

safety . I think that for anyone

31:05

who has some form of an othered identity , that's

31:07

often one of the first places that that

31:10

we think of , right , like , is this a safe space for

31:12

me to be who I am ? And I think within

31:14

that , we have to acknowledge privilege . Right , like I think of of

31:16

my , my , my peers , who are people of color

31:18

, who cannot hide their skin color

31:20

or or hair color or texture or whatever

31:23

in any given context . Right , my

31:25

gain is , our gain , is we can choose

31:27

to cover , if we want to , right , so we do actually

31:29

get to choose , like walking through a doorway

31:31

, who we are in that instance , based

31:33

on that quick read across the room . Right , so

31:36

I think of that first , but then I also think very

31:38

quickly of , um

31:40

, I have the

31:42

number of rooms that I have been in where I am the

31:44

only queer person in that room , or

31:46

at least the only one that's open about it

31:48

, and clarified that and made it known

31:50

to others . Right , we know that there's a lot of folks that , for

31:53

many different reasons , don't feel comfortable or aren't

31:55

capable of being able to have that

31:57

openness , and

31:59

so I have , in those instances

32:01

, tried very hard to be

32:03

, as much as I can can

32:06

, the champion for those

32:08

causes , right ? So

32:10

I think of past leadership teams that I've been

32:12

a part of , I think of panels that I sit on

32:14

, I think of being a guest

32:16

on a podcast within a season , right , like

32:19

, are there a variety of voices that are coming to the table At

32:21

the same time ? It's really interesting . There's an organization here

32:23

in Chicago or it's a national organization

32:25

, but the CEO

32:27

is here in Chicago called Startout . It's an organization

32:30

that supports LGBT entrepreneurs . They

32:32

do really fantastic programming , great work

32:34

, awesome stuff . I've

32:36

had the great privilege of getting to know them over the last

32:39

kind of year in my role

32:41

and participate in a couple of programs . What's

32:43

really interesting is that , like when I even

32:45

reflect on my own understanding of , like , my gayness

32:48

in a room or my own understanding

32:50

of my identity , I go to a start out event

32:52

and I'm probably one of the least adept people

32:54

in that room to be able to articulate my identity

32:56

, and yet in most settings in

32:58

my life , I'm the most articulate and being

33:01

able to identify or be able to talk about my

33:03

identity because I am the only one

33:05

, and so I think about it also , just

33:07

like the context and

33:09

community you're part of . Also , like I

33:11

think I'm the same person , but like when , in a room

33:13

of you know all LGBT people

33:15

who are able to really

33:18

be able to talk really

33:20

, really eloquently about you , know how they

33:22

identify how that impacts their lived experience

33:24

, I find myself humbled in those settings . Yet

33:29

I find myself in settings where I have to do that type of talk because there's no one else

33:31

to do it . It's an interesting balance because I'm the same person in both

33:33

but but , but not

33:36

at the same time .

33:37

Yeah , yeah

33:40

, there's um a bit of context

33:42

of um , how do I fit into

33:44

this group and when're I

33:46

mean ? It's kind of like you know , uh

33:49

, if we take the , the

33:51

gay identity out of it . Like you know , if

33:53

you were um

33:55

talking about neurobiology to

33:57

a bunch of people who were

34:00

, uh , accountants , you

34:04

could be like really confident about

34:06

it . But

34:08

if you were trying

34:10

to talk about neurobiology in

34:12

front of a room of other neurobiologists

34:15

, you'd be like , oh gosh , they

34:17

all know more than I do and so there's that

34:19

positionality of do I actually

34:22

, does my experience mean

34:24

more ? do I have more than everyone else

34:26

? And so it becomes kind of this intimidating

34:29

thing .

34:30

Yeah , and what's

34:32

so interesting is that , like , there are skills you

34:34

can have right , in which case you have more skill or less skill

34:36

, or more knowledge or less knowledge on a thing , but when it comes

34:38

to identity , it's like it's not

34:41

, there's not , it's not a game , it's

34:43

not a point system in which you have 80

34:45

identity points because you've whatever right . It's like we

34:48

all have our identity and it is what it is

34:50

. But I totally agree with what you just said . I

34:52

step into a room of all queer folks

34:54

and it's it's often a bit intimidating , because

34:56

I'm rarely in a setting like that , I'm rarely

34:58

in community with with people that

35:00

share that part of my identity with me . In that

35:03

same way , I often find myself having to be the

35:05

one right . Yeah , that's who

35:08

? And I think about that for a few minutes .

35:10

Yeah , that's a good one to dig into and

35:20

it's , it's interesting . Um , uh , I I'm definitely a little teaser for some of the work that I'm doing

35:22

. I'm , um , I've been digging deep , deep

35:24

into authenticity and where authenticity

35:26

lives in our brains and like how

35:30

, how authenticity and identity

35:32

are formed and

35:35

spoiler . Authenticity

35:37

is a combination of a who we are , but

35:39

also who we think everyone wants

35:41

us to be . And so there's

35:44

an interesting mix there , and so

35:46

I'm playing there . I haven't solved

35:48

it all , but that's all work for

35:50

the second edition . That's

35:52

a big one , huh , yeah

35:54

, yeah , jim , I have

35:57

really enjoyed our conversation today and

35:59

we'll have to go have drinks in the neighborhood

36:01

soon . Beings were literally my arm

36:03

, twist my arm . But

36:06

thank you so much for for

36:09

joining us . And if anyone

36:11

wants to get in contact with

36:13

you , how do they do ?

36:15

Yeah , yeah . So LinkedIn

36:17

is easy . Just search my name . I usually pop up

36:19

pretty quickly , if that's a little challenging

36:21

. The firm I work for , hyde Park Venture Partners

36:23

, you can find our website . I have a profile on there

36:25

and links to email and stuff like that . Feel

36:28

free to reach out . If any of the topics that we chatted

36:30

about today resonate and folks want to go a little deeper

36:32

, I would love to connect further . But also

36:34

if folks just want to talk more about identity in

36:36

the workplace , identity in life , how

36:39

we figure stuff out , how we build relationships with others

36:41

, I'm all ears , let's chat .

36:55

Awesome . Thank you , jim , and thank you

36:57

all for listening and join us again for

36:59

another episode soon .