0:09

Hello and welcome to another

0:11

episode of the Creating Belonging podcast

0:13

. Today I have with me Tony Chatman

0:16

. Tony , thank you for joining

0:18

me and if you would just take a moment to introduce

0:20

yourself , hey

0:22

, Justin .

0:22

So thanks for having me . I'm a corporate

0:25

relationship expert and really what

0:27

that means is , when we

0:29

look at the workplace , a

0:32

lot of people focus on products

0:34

and process , but I feel like

0:36

most people don't come into the workplace prepared

0:39

for the people dimension , right . And

0:41

so if we learn how to leverage

0:43

the relationships , literally the people

0:45

side of the workplace , that can either

0:47

be our competitive advantage or

0:49

, if we don't , it could be our Achilles tendon

0:51

. And

1:02

you know a little backstory for me . I got side

1:04

, but I quickly learned that

1:06

I got a lot more done because

1:08

of how I treated people than because of what I knew

1:10

.

1:12

That's an amazing realization and

1:14

glad that you're in and doing that work

1:16

. As so

1:18

with typically with my guests , I like to ask

1:20

them to disclose any identities

1:22

that they'd like to share , just to kind of ground us in the conversation

1:25

and understand perspectives we might be bringing

1:27

to the table . What identities would

1:29

you mind sharing with our audience

1:31

?

1:34

Black cis heterosexual

1:36

, us

1:39

Gen X . Yeah

1:43

, I think that's pretty good .

1:45

Great , thank you . Thank you for sharing

1:47

so

1:54

kind of before we hit record . We started talking about kind of belonging

1:56

and perspectives on belonging , and so before I go there , I want to talk

1:58

a little bit about the work that you do and

2:01

kind of how belonging plays into that . And

2:03

so , in particular in

2:05

your work you talk about relationship-based

2:08

leadership , and so I'd

2:10

love to hear how belonging plays

2:12

into relation-based leadership

2:15

.

2:16

Sure . So , you know , I

2:19

think we all have to look at how we're going to define belonging , right

2:21

. I think that that's part of the challenge , and there

2:24

are so many ways . I know you have an incredible

2:26

framework for it , which we may or may not

2:28

. Talk a little bit about . One of the things

2:30

that I have noticed , after surveying thousands

2:32

of people , when asking them you

2:35

know , what do you want in the workplace

2:37

, and especially in the phrase , what

2:40

makes you feel included , right ? Although

2:43

belonging that word came up , the

2:46

trend that we saw was that

2:48

there were two words that

2:50

seem to take , you know

2:52

, compose everything , and that was

2:54

value and respect . And

2:58

so , really , from

3:00

my vantage point , what I look at a lot is

3:02

how do we ensure

3:05

that , when people are in the workplace

3:07

, that they are valued , valued

3:10

as human beings , valued for what they bring to the table

3:12

, and respected ? And

3:14

in many ways , although it's hard to get

3:16

to a lot of the nuances of

3:18

what different people will determine as actual

3:21

belonging , that seems to cover

3:23

a lot of it in a lot of the situations

3:25

, and so that's kind of the starting point

3:28

and the reason that I do it is

3:30

, you know , realistically

3:32

, when I got into becoming a professional speaker

3:35

, I had a lot of things I could talk about

3:37

. Right , I had a strong

3:39

background in leadership . I had

3:41

a strong background in change management , strong background

3:43

in communication , but I kept thinking

3:45

to myself . Number

3:48

one most people spend

3:50

the majority of their waking hours

3:52

at work , so

3:54

in many ways , that begins to define their experience

3:57

. Number two

3:59

most people

4:01

have never had multiple

4:04

great bosses . You

4:07

know what I mean , if we're going to just be real

4:09

when you talk about not decent

4:12

, not good , but great . However

4:17

, you define a great boss , asking people have you ever had two great

4:19

bosses in a row ? They look at

4:21

you like you know you're asking them to find

4:24

Bigfoot . I mean , it's just , it's

4:31

one of those funny things and I thought this shouldn't be . And a lot of the issues that people have

4:33

revolve around their relationship with their boss

4:36

, supervisor , manager , whatever phrase you want to say

4:38

. And so those two things really

4:41

kind of cemented the direction

4:43

I wanted to go and I realized

4:45

that looking at it through that lens framed

4:48

how to look at a lot of different things and

4:51

helping to more easily define a lot of the phrases

4:53

that we use in buzzwords in ways that are

4:55

a lot more simple .

4:56

I want to ref a little bit on the . So you mentioned

4:58

value and respect . As

5:01

you know what people want at work and kind

5:03

of playing into that belonging and and

5:05

I see those related to so

5:08

in in the creating belonging work . I

5:10

talk about belonging being created at the intersection

5:12

of authenticity and acceptance

5:14

and I think value and respect

5:16

sit really nicely in that

5:19

acceptance piece . And

5:21

one of the things I wanted to ask you about you talk

5:24

a bit about kind of getting people pushed out of their comfort zone and one of the things I wanted to ask you about you talk a bit about kind of getting people pushed

5:26

out of their comfort zone and

5:28

I think that oftentimes

5:30

accepting others can push us

5:32

out of our comfort zone . Right , it

5:34

may require us to challenge or suspend

5:37

our own values

5:40

, you know , not valuing others , but I mean

5:42

, like our own personal values . That may

5:44

, you know , present some challenges there

5:46

. So I'm curious you

5:49

know , how do you work with folks to

5:51

push them out of their comfort zone , to

5:53

create that acceptance

5:55

or value or respect of

5:58

their people , to build those relationships ?

6:01

Sure , I mean a lot of it really comes down to

6:03

empathy , right ? We're all trying to

6:05

have a human experience , whether

6:07

in society or in the workplace

6:09

, and so really

6:11

, that empathy helping to

6:13

see another person's vantage point , looking at the world

6:16

through their eyes , walking in their shoes

6:18

is really a great starting point

6:20

. Now , what I happen to do in a lot

6:22

of my work is I combine that

6:24

with really giving people an understanding

6:27

of unconscious bias , and

6:29

in a way that I think is different

6:31

than many people have experienced that phrase

6:33

. But understanding biases

6:36

, although we often think

6:38

of it in terms of , you know , prejudice

6:40

and discrimination , it's a much

6:42

larger umbrella and it really

6:45

is a focus on how we make

6:47

decisions , how we interpret our

6:49

realities , and that a lot of it

6:51

. Number one is

6:53

we're using our most ineffective

6:56

part of our brain to do it , but

6:58

the other part of it is most

7:01

of the narratives , because I like

7:03

to use the word narrative . One of my close friends

7:05

, she's

7:07

got me thinking this way and

7:09

she would say well , you

7:12

did this , and so

7:14

the story I told myself

7:16

was this right , because

7:18

we're filling in blanks and

7:20

to help people understand a

7:23

lot of the ways that we fill in those

7:25

blanks , to tell our story is

7:27

a function of our previous experiences

7:29

. It's how we were raised

7:32

, who raised us , where we were

7:34

raised , our education system , our

7:36

religious experiences , our personal

7:38

experiences . When you start looking at all

7:40

these different things , you realize we

7:43

have a very subjective

7:45

point of view and we begin to

7:47

expand that and take other people's points

7:50

of view into consideration . It

7:53

allows us to rehumanize

7:55

them , and so

7:57

I really feel like it's a lot of

7:59

making , it's remembering

8:01

that everyone's a human being and

8:03

I think we forget that we we

8:06

look at them as well . They think differently , they

8:08

do , they have very different values , and

8:10

so then what we do is we

8:12

demonize them . But the way

8:14

you demonize someone is you first

8:16

have to dehumanize them so that you can

8:18

demonize them without

8:21

having a lot of cognitive distance right and

8:23

not a lot of I'm a bad person because I'm demonizing

8:25

. Well , no , they . No , they deserve it . Look at who they

8:27

really are . And so you start taking that

8:29

away and you rehumanize

8:31

people . Then it's harder to demonize

8:34

and discriminate against them , and so I

8:36

think that is kind of the foundation

8:38

that I lay so that we can start

8:40

having these conversations , so that we

8:43

get to value , and

8:45

I really , I

8:48

intentionally use the word value even

8:51

more than acceptance , and I

8:53

do it because of conversations I've had

8:55

over the last few years . As the world's

8:57

going through this social

8:59

conversation and I constantly

9:02

hear people saying you know , we need

9:04

to be more tolerant , and

9:07

I would just ask them so

9:09

are you tolerating me right now ? Is that

9:11

kind of what we're doing ? Because I need

9:13

to know if you know what I mean . If

9:16

the best we're going to do is that you tolerate me

9:18

, that's not an acceptable level

9:21

and I want to make sure that we can get

9:23

beyond that . I think acceptance is a

9:25

good level , but I

9:27

like the idea of valuing people

9:29

for all the various

9:31

reasons we can talk about .

9:33

I really like that and , yeah , I think tolerance

9:35

it's an interesting word because then if you ask someone

9:38

if you've ever felt tolerated and

9:41

then ask them , did that feel good ? They're

9:43

probably going to say no , right . So

9:45

we definitely need more

9:47

than tolerance . And

9:49

I like this idea of value and

9:52

rehumanizing people Because

9:54

I definitely I talk about bias too and from

9:56

that perspective that you know you

9:58

have bias because you're human Right

10:01

, end of story . And I think for

10:03

too long we've

10:11

built up bias to be a bad thing , but it's it's not a bad thing . It actually keeps us alive , like the

10:13

structure of our brain that's doing that thing . It

10:15

keeps us alive on a daily basis

10:18

. But it also gets in the way of modern decisions

10:20

and you know exactly that

10:22

of like it , it helps

10:25

us dehumanize people and

10:28

so we have to then work kind of more consciously

10:30

to rehumanize people . So I really

10:32

like the way that you've described

10:35

that and and your perspective

10:37

on on how

10:39

we rehumanize people .

10:41

Yeah , thank you . Well , one of the things I'd like to say about

10:43

that is people . Yeah , thank you . One of the things I'd like to say about that is you're

10:45

absolutely right . Bias is a human

10:48

condition , right ? Although

10:52

we can reprogram some of our biases

10:54

, I agree with you . Bias in and

10:56

of itself is not bad . It's the fact

10:58

that we're not conscious that is making the decisions

11:01

right . Like , quick

11:03

example , I was in Juneau

11:05

, alaska , doing some work in

11:08

February of 2017

11:10

, I think it was and so I wanted to go see Mendenhall

11:12

Glacier , right and so so I'm at the glacier

11:14

, but it's kind of this weird time . It's like 40

11:17

degrees , so it's it's not

11:19

. Things aren't as frozen as they should be , but

11:21

you know , there's ice . It was an ice storm , and I

11:24

don't know if you've ever been to mendenhall glacier , or do you know

11:26

? Alaska um ? but

11:28

, there's like a frozen lake

11:30

that you walk across to get to

11:32

the actual glacier so you can see it

11:34

from the state park . But you can walk across

11:36

this frozen lake during the winter and like get

11:38

to the glacier and like walk

11:40

inside it and so . But I'm like it's 40

11:43

degrees , so I'm kind of walking and

11:46

I'm like am I gonna ? You know , I go like

11:48

40 yards . I'm like

11:50

, you know , I don't know if this thing's

11:52

going to like crack or whatever . And

11:54

then in that moment I

11:57

turned to my left and here come three

11:59

guys geared up right , they got the

12:01

spike boots and the ski

12:03

poles and they do this

12:05

every day and they just walk right

12:07

past me like it's nothing and

12:10

they've said nothing to me . But

12:13

in that moment my conscious

12:16

bias was oh

12:18

, they know what they're doing , I

12:20

can follow them right . That's

12:23

still a bias , because I'm

12:25

telling myself a story based

12:27

on incomplete information , but

12:30

because I was conscious of it

12:32

. It's a very different thing than if I'm

12:34

unconsciously treating someone

12:37

based on an urge or a feeling I'm not even

12:39

recognizing .

12:40

Yeah , yeah , when I think the trouble

12:42

, to your point the trouble is when we

12:46

feel like our decisions are 100%

12:48

made in our conscious

12:50

brain , that we have control over that

12:53

. I think that's where we get in trouble

12:55

. We have to understand that our brain

12:57

is wired to be efficient . It makes decisions

12:59

for us on a regular basis , and

13:01

once we understand that , we can then start to think

13:04

about okay , how do I override

13:06

it when it needs to be overridden

13:08

?

13:09

Yeah , exactly , and to your point . Functional

13:11

MRIs show us that about 90% of the

13:13

decisions we make on a daily basis originate

13:16

out of our subconscious right , 95%

13:19

of our buying decisions . So when you

13:21

start to understand that , it makes you

13:23

really rethink everything .

13:25

Yes , yes . So

13:28

when we were talking earlier we were talking

13:30

a bit about kind of belonging and the

13:32

positionality of belonging with the

13:35

greater deib

13:37

and or any other letters we want to throw

13:39

into this body of work

13:41

that that we do , and

13:43

you know the role of . I want

13:45

to , I want to tee up the topic of the

13:47

role of belonging in

13:50

diversity , equity , inclusion

13:53

, um , accessibility

13:55

. I think I think I've captured

13:57

the most of the the things we're throwing in diversity

13:59

, equity , inclusion , accessibility .

14:00

I think I've captured the most of the things we're throwing in Justice sometimes .

14:02

Sorry , what was that ? Sometimes people put in justice

14:04

, oh , yes , justice . So

14:07

yeah , I'm curious your thoughts on the positionality

14:09

of belonging in that greater

14:12

kind of sphere of work .

14:15

All righty , here we go . Here's our phone

14:17

conversation , Because we did

14:20

start . I just kind of shared my

14:22

bottom line thought with you , but

14:24

I think it's a much more complicated

14:26

thought , right ? So I

14:29

think that belonging is

14:31

a critical component of culture . An

14:34

organization's culture and if you want to have a component of culture , an organization's culture , and if you want

14:36

to have a healthy workplace culture

14:39

, belonging I mean

14:41

the studies show that

14:43

when people feel like they belong and they think they're

14:45

cared about and they're valued , right , you start

14:47

talking about production increases

14:50

, innovation increases , resilience

14:53

increases , retention increases

14:56

, right ? The business case is

14:59

nearly overwhelming

15:01

. I mean , it's just mind-blowing when

15:03

you really think of all the things that are

15:05

there . That being

15:08

said , I struggle

15:10

to have it in the conversation

15:13

of diversity , equity and inclusion

15:15

, and I do

15:17

that for a few reasons . Now

15:24

, on the positive side , or if I were going to argue for it , there are organizations

15:27

that come to the realization that

15:29

they need to focus

15:32

on , you know , dei

15:34

or whatever , because some

15:37

type of climate or

15:39

culture survey has told them that certain

15:42

demographics view the organization

15:44

differently and they view that they fit

15:46

in differently . They view that they you

15:49

know that they are valued

15:51

, that they belong very differently . That

15:54

being said , here's why I struggle . If

15:56

you looked at Maslow's hierarchy of needs

15:59

, right , and you can argue whether

16:01

Maslow's hierarchy of needs is , you

16:03

know , the perfect model or not

16:05

, whatever , but there's

16:07

this idea that kind of at the bottom level

16:09

. There's these psychological needs

16:12

, or physiological needs . I should say

16:14

that are things like , you know , food

16:17

, water , sex

16:20

excretion , breathing . Right Above

16:23

that there's safety and

16:26

a lot of this is . Although we often

16:28

talk a lot about psychological safety , this

16:30

is physical safety , in many ways

16:32

right , but there's also

16:34

economic safety . You know , the safety

16:37

of employment , the safety of having resources

16:39

, the safety of your family . There's all

16:41

these things Above

16:50

that , normally on the pyramid is

16:52

where way and it's arguable , obviously , is

16:54

that before

16:57

you can focus on this third

16:59

tier , if you

17:01

don't have two and one done , if you don't feel

17:04

safe , if you can't eat , you're

17:06

not thinking about belonging . So

17:10

my challenge with putting belonging

17:12

in the DEI space is

17:14

, when you look

17:17

at equity and inclusion , those

17:20

are hitting the physiological

17:22

and the safety needs You're

17:25

talking about . Can I get a job

17:28

? Can I afford to feed my

17:30

family ? Am I ? I'm

17:32

coming to work , but you know , know

17:34

, I was the second African-American to ever

17:36

graduate from my university with the degree

17:39

I had . I know lots of people

17:41

who were the first Black

17:43

person , the first Chinese person

17:45

, the first Mexican person I'm being very

17:47

specific with these identities to

17:49

ever work in their job and

17:52

their lives were threatened

17:54

. Their tires were slashed

17:57

, some of them . Their houses were

17:59

vandalized , right ? I mean , you're talking

18:02

about real safety issues and

18:05

I think that people who

18:07

have yet to get equity and inclusion

18:10

don't have

18:12

the luxury to think about belonging .

18:16

Yeah .

18:17

So that's my challenge with this conversation

18:19

about belonging . I think it applies

18:22

to everyone and I think

18:24

that in many ways it can be

18:26

an indicator of

18:28

, you know , strong

18:31

needs in the diversity , equity and inclusion space

18:33

. But

18:38

what I see is I see a focus on belonging

18:40

at the expense of

18:42

equity and inclusion , and I think

18:44

that is going down a very dangerous road .

18:46

Yeah , okay , let's

18:49

have some fun with this . One

18:51

thing I want to share , something that I

18:53

don't think I've shared it on the podcast or publicly

18:55

and I think it's interesting to this

18:57

conversation . So I wrote my

19:00

book creating belonging over

19:02

two years ago , and

19:04

a year ago was really

19:06

getting settled into my business and

19:09

kind of , you know , working through how I'm going to

19:11

market all of that , and was working

19:13

with my coach , how

19:16

I'm going to market all of that and was working with my coach and you know , working through , like Justin

19:19

, you need you need the one thing like what's your one thing that you're really going to

19:21

focus in on , and or kind

19:23

of that kind of the marketplace focus . And

19:25

I had three things and I was like , well , here , here

19:27

and here . And she's like , no , justin

19:29

, we need one . And she kept

19:31

pushing me into DEIB . She's like

19:33

you do DEIB work ? And I said no , absolutely

19:36

not . That is not where

19:38

my business sits , that's not what I do

19:40

and

19:44

I don't want to muddy the waters because I think there

19:46

are people that do pure DEI work

19:48

differently and better than

19:50

I do . Yes , I

19:52

wrote a book titled Creating Belonging , but

19:55

I think it sits

19:57

a little bit different and it can

19:59

sit in that greater DEIB

20:01

space . But I'm like there's other

20:04

pieces to this puzzle that aren't

20:06

I'm interested in them , I'm passionate about

20:08

them , but I don't think that I'm the one to go fix

20:10

them necessarily right as

20:12

far as where my interest , where my talent

20:14

lies , and

20:17

so I wanted to throw that out there as an interesting positionality

20:19

of you know , I've tussled with this

20:21

a bit in my own

20:23

work of where does Justin and

20:26

his business sit in the world

20:28

, and so

20:30

kind of to that point of you

20:33

know , where does it sit ? I kind of . Here's the

20:35

way I think about it . I want to tee this up and I'm curious

20:37

your reaction . I think

20:39

that inclusion

20:41

, specifically inclusion , are acts

20:44

like we do things

20:46

that are inclusive of people , right

20:48

, we do things to include people . When

20:51

we do inclusion through a diversity lens

20:53

, we're ensuring that we're creating a , you

20:55

know , getting a diverse population of people

20:58

that are included in that . And

21:00

if we're doing it equitably , we're

21:02

doing it in a way that gives

21:04

people what they need , not just

21:06

equal treatment . When

21:10

we get all of that stuff right , belonging

21:12

is the outcome yes

21:18

, I could not agree .

21:20

Listen , number one . You and I probably

21:22

share more similarities , as we're having this conversation

21:25

, than we realize . I

21:27

fought against being in

21:29

the dei space for the first

21:31

nine years of my business , even

21:34

though I was constantly being asked to and

21:36

pushed into and what

21:38

we haven't . So now it's my turn to ask you

21:40

a question . So if you wouldn't mind sharing

21:43

and I think people who listen to your podcast

21:45

already know this , but we haven't had this conversation would

21:48

you be sharing some of your identities ?

21:50

oh yeah , absolutely so . Um

21:53

, uh , white cisgender gay

21:55

man , um , I

21:58

I something that I talk about a lot

22:00

. I grew up in rural Iowa , so

22:02

most everyone around me looked like

22:04

me , but I now I live in Chicago , uh

22:06

, and you know so very different space

22:09

, and I share

22:11

that because it's it very

22:13

much influences the lens that I

22:15

have and the blinders that

22:17

I'm constantly beating back , and

22:19

the , the , the program bias that's inside me that I'm constantly beating back , and the programmed

22:21

bias that's inside me that I'm constantly

22:23

trying to fight and

22:26

overcome . So

22:28

, yeah , that's a bit of mine

22:30

and yeah , I share that a lot , but we

22:32

haven't had that conversation , so yeah

22:35

, Number one .

22:37

Thank you for sharing , because , I mean , these

22:39

vulnerabilities are not things that are always

22:42

easy and , in some cases , aren't always welcome

22:44

, so I really appreciate it . You know . So

22:46

, you know , going to this conversation we're having

22:48

, there are probably

22:50

, at different stages

22:53

of your life , various times

22:55

that you did not feel like you belong , sometimes

22:58

based on some of your various identities , right

23:00

, I mean , you can go through it and

23:02

sometimes it's based on an identity

23:04

that people don't think about , right ? You grew up

23:06

in Iowa and moved to Chicago . I

23:10

grew up in Kalamazoo and moved to Chicago

23:12

. That was a culture shock for me and

23:14

for everyone else around me , right . So

23:17

, but

23:19

the thing that you said is that if

23:22

we do all of these things right

23:24

, belonging

23:26

becomes the outcome . I

23:29

think you can say that about

23:31

almost every component

23:34

of DEI , b

23:36

, a , j , whatever letter . Right

23:38

, that the

23:41

goal is not to

23:43

manufacture diversity

23:45

. The goal is to do

23:48

things in such a way that diversity

23:50

is the outcome . The

23:52

goal is not to manufacture

23:55

equity or manufacture

23:57

inclusion . But if we

23:59

do things correctly , then

24:02

equity , inclusion

24:04

, diversity , acceptance

24:06

I

24:09

mean , I just

24:11

think about this . We

24:15

had to say , hey , we need

24:17

to add inclusion to diversity , because somebody

24:19

was doing diversity without inclusion , right , we had to say , hey , we need to add inclusion to diversity , because somebody was doing diversity without inclusion

24:23

. We had to add equity

24:25

. I've said for years really

24:28

it's D&I diversity and inclusion

24:30

because equity is an aspect of inclusion

24:32

. How can you have equity if you don't have inclusion ? How

24:34

can you have accessibility ? If you don't have inclusion , how

24:36

can you have belonging ? But I

24:38

understand the need to keep some

24:41

ways to keep parsing us out , but

24:43

but it seems

24:45

like we go after the labels instead

24:47

of understanding . And this

24:49

is where I think , because I say we're similar

24:52

. For me , I fought this

24:54

and I always tell

24:56

people I am not a dei expert . I tell , I

24:59

tell my clients I'm not a DEI practitioner

25:01

, I'm not . I

25:04

do understand workplace culture

25:06

and if we do culture

25:08

right , then we deal . We will

25:10

get this as an outcome . And yes

25:12

, at times we need to focus on this . Just

25:15

as you know , if

25:18

you were in ICU because

25:20

you just had a stroke , there's parts

25:22

of your body you must focus on in

25:24

that moment , but that does

25:26

not mean that you don't care about the whole body , and

25:29

so I think that's kind of how we should be

25:31

thinking about this .

25:32

Yeah Well , and I like that you focus on

25:34

it from the culture perspective , because I think any

25:37

organization that doesn't look at the big picture

25:39

is going to fail at it , whatever

25:41

it is that we're defining it as . So

25:44

you know organizations that don't have their

25:46

culture right , the inclusion

25:49

pieces , but that you can

25:51

go and hire diverse

25:53

talent . You know talented that doesn't

25:55

look like the talent that we have today , look

26:02

like the talent that we have today . But you now have people that , if we

26:05

don't have our unconscious bias under control , we

26:07

don't let right . Those people are not

26:09

going to last very long , and I've I've been in those

26:11

organizations where the focus

26:13

is just on the diversity numbers

26:15

, but the diversity numbers never

26:17

stay where they want them to be , because the

26:19

higher turnover is in the marginalized populations

26:21

, because those people still don't feel

26:23

like they , and for me

26:26

it's it's that they feel like they don't belong

26:28

, they don't have , we don't have , the right inclusion , and

26:30

so they're like peace out , I

26:32

don't belong here , I gotta go somewhere else , and

26:35

so that's where I , I I don't mind

26:38

, I don't know , I don't mind lumping it in there , because I

26:40

do think it's an important component , but

26:42

I also really respect the identification

26:45

that like there's a lot of moving pieces

26:47

here and they all have to be working right .

26:50

Yeah , I appreciate you saying it that

26:52

way . You know , I look at the whole thing as

26:54

too often we're

26:56

trying to build a pipeline , but if you don't

26:59

fix the leak , the product's never going to get to

27:01

the right place , and so it is . You

27:03

can't just build the pipeline .

27:05

You have to fix the leaks of not belonging

27:07

, fix the leaks of not being inclusive

27:09

, fix the leaks of not being equitable , and

27:11

that will solve a lot of the problems chatted

27:23

through this um , because I think it's good to I just I think it's good to to really dig through some

27:25

of the definitions and how we're viewing things

27:27

to be able to move forward productively

27:30

. I would it

27:32

kind of last transition of conversation

27:34

. One thing I would love to hear is I

27:36

always love to hear people's personal stories of belonging or not belonging and I'd love to

27:38

hear is I always love to hear people's personal stories of belonging or not belonging ? And

27:41

I'd love to hear from you , kind of in

27:44

your journey . You've

27:46

already mentioned one thing coming from Kalamazoo

27:48

to Chicago . You know

27:50

there's , there's that I'm just I'm curious if there's

27:52

some story that you wouldn't mind sharing of either

27:54

finding belonging or not having it

27:56

belonging

28:04

or not having it ?

28:05

Sure , and I think it's fascinating , I think they both can happen at the same time , which sounds like

28:07

a strange , almost an oxymoron

28:09

, but I mentioned earlier . So

28:12

I said I was a chemical engineer , but technically my

28:14

degree was in paper science , which is a specialized form

28:17

of chemical engineering . When I graduated

28:19

from Western Michigan I was the second African-American

28:21

to ever graduate from that

28:23

university with my degree . It's highly

28:25

specialized , highly

28:27

valued , highly competitive and

28:30

we walked out with the highest salaries

28:32

as underwriters , right . But that also

28:34

meant I walked into an industry that's

28:36

not used to having meat , and

28:39

often I was going to paper

28:41

mills in very small

28:44

areas where I

28:48

maybe there

28:50

you don't think black people , when you think Moralton

28:52

, arkansas . When you think Mattawaska

28:55

, maine , when you think international

28:58

falls , minnesota , right , I mean , there

29:00

are places that when I went you

29:03

had the combination of just

29:05

the unfamiliarity

29:10

of dealing with someone like this , but also

29:12

the very conscious biases

29:15

. You know me sitting in my boss's office

29:17

as he's talking to a client , the client

29:19

not knowing that he's on speakerphone

29:21

and I'm in the room . And he's

29:23

saying . So , yeah , you know that monkey that

29:25

you sent up to the mill last week got lost

29:27

Right Speaking of me . So

29:30

that was a very real

29:32

, very constant experience

29:36

for me . Experience

29:41

for me . At the same time , while working for that very

29:43

same organization , I can think of one particular

29:46

regional man , I can actually think of a regional

29:48

sales manager , but

29:56

a district manager who I won't even mention his name , I don't even know

29:58

if he's still alive , but he , just he saw me and

30:01

I think that's the word I would use . He saw

30:04

me . He saw

30:06

me , he saw my

30:08

intelligence , he saw my social

30:10

skills . He saw that , even

30:12

though all those things I just mentioned are very

30:15

real , by the time

30:17

I was in a client space for a half hour

30:19

, they loved me and

30:21

he knew it . And

30:24

he always said listen , if

30:26

you ever want

30:29

to come into the field in my district

30:31

, I will always have a spot for you

30:33

. And I tell people to this

30:35

day I'm a business

30:38

owner . I've been a business owner for over 20

30:40

years . I

30:42

can't imagine being an employee . I

30:44

just you know it's

30:47

no way . If

30:49

I had to , I

30:52

would consider it for him . He

30:54

was that guy because he

30:57

valued me and had a vision

30:59

in me and so within

31:01

his sphere I felt like I

31:03

belonged , even though in the greater ecosystem

31:06

I didn't Thank you for sharing

31:08

that and I think there's .

31:10

You know , I talk a bit about the fluidity of belonging

31:13

. Right , it can go up and down and it depends on who we're

31:15

with at the time . Can go up and down and it depends

31:17

on who we're with at the time . And

31:20

you know , belonging , our

31:26

state of belonging , doesn't stay static with a greater organization

31:29

. It can vary from team to team or , in your case , kind of being

31:31

client facing . You know

31:33

you could go into one , one organization

31:36

in an area of the country that is

31:38

, you know , not as enlightened

31:41

I don't know , trying to think of a better word that

31:44

works , and then you

31:46

know , or go to another client that

31:48

is , you know , very , you

31:50

know open , accepting , and and

31:52

you know . So , yeah , I think that

31:55

it can be very fluid and it's

31:57

interesting in the podcast , the conversations

31:59

that I'm having , we talk

32:01

a lot about that fluidity and you

32:03

know , even being able

32:05

to parts of ourselves , parts

32:12

of our identities , being able to be open and feeling belonging with them , and

32:14

some that maybe we can still kind of hide away but still feel belonging

32:16

, and so it's an interesting , interesting

32:18

dichotomy with that .

32:20

Yeah , if I could add something to this idea of fluidity

32:23

, I think part of the reason

32:25

that our belonging , part

32:27

of the reason that our belonging is

32:30

a fluid thing , is because

32:32

, going back to the word we used earlier , bias

32:34

is also a fluid thing

32:36

, is very situational

32:38

, right ? When I lived

32:40

in New York , I played basketball

32:42

with this group of guys four times a

32:44

week . Half of them were NYPD

32:47

, right , and we're to this day

32:49

. We have a group chat and it's a

32:51

wild ride on that group chat . But we

32:53

are buddies and I know

32:55

if I ever need anything every

32:58

one of them will have my back . But

33:00

I also know from their very

33:02

own mouths when

33:04

they enter into their

33:06

beat mode , their cop mode

33:09

, and they're in certain areas they

33:12

are very different people Because

33:14

there's very different dangers , very different experiences , very

33:17

different realities , all of these things . And I'm

33:19

not saying it's justifiable or good or bad

33:21

or whatever , but I'm saying that is the reality

33:23

, that this person can be this way in this environment

33:26

and step into a completely different environment

33:29

or have a completely different emotion

33:31

and have a very different response

33:33

yes , yes

33:36

, context can , yes , yes , context can

33:38

absolutely shift , you

33:41

know , heighten our biases , shift

33:43

our biases .

33:45

But yeah , the context can really really

33:47

shift that and thank you for that , absolutely

33:50

, tony . I want to thank you so

33:52

much for joining me today . I've enjoyed our conversation

33:54

and I have a feeling we could keep

33:57

talking forever , and maybe we will , but

33:59

for this conversation I want to put a bow

34:01

on it , but I do want to make

34:04

sure that people can find you . So

34:06

if people want to reach out to you , tony , what's

34:09

the best ways to find you ?

34:11

The easiest thing . If you can spell my name , which

34:13

is the last thing the C-H-A-T is in Tom , it

34:15

may end I'm TonyChapmancom

34:18

. So my website's there , links to

34:20

all of my socials there , emails , there

34:23

, social media I'm either

34:25

Tony Chapman or

34:27

on Instagram and

34:29

TikTok on Tony Chapman

34:31

Speaks . This is because Tony Chapman was taken

34:33

, and so you know . Whichever

34:35

you know , your flavor is that you like

34:38

the best . Find me in that space

34:40

and I'm there .

34:41

Perfect , and I will make sure to add some links

34:43

in the show notes so people can link to that

34:45

more easily if they have access to that . But

34:48

again , tony , thank you so much for

34:50

joining me today .

34:54

I was going to say great

34:56

conversation and I appreciate

34:58

you providing a space to

35:00

have the back and forth that we had , because

35:03

I'm actually sharing thoughts that

35:05

I've been thinking for a while but have never

35:07

shared publicly . So I appreciate that .

35:09

I love that , thank you . I

35:12

love hearing different perspectives and I'm not afraid

35:14

of seeing

35:16

where the conversation will go , so

35:19

I appreciate you sharing . Thank

35:21

you , tony , and join us again

35:23

for another episode of the Creating Bolling

35:25

Podcast . Thanks ,