0:09

Welcome to another

0:11

episode of the Creating Belonging podcast

0:13

. We're getting into the second

0:15

season of the Creating Belonging podcast

0:17

and I'm excited to have with me our

0:20

guest , Geoffrey Roche

0:22

. Today , and

0:25

in the usual tradition , I like to have people introduce

0:27

themselves in their own voice and

0:29

words . Geoffrey , if you wouldn't mind sharing

0:31

a little bit , about yourselves , sure ?

0:33

Well , wonderful to be here with you , justin , and

0:36

look forward to this dialogue and conversation

0:38

. Geoffrey M Roche , professionally , I

0:40

serve as the director of workforce development

0:42

at Siemens Health and Ears , and

0:44

I'm a first-generation American . My

0:47

mother was born in Germany , and so I'm actually a dual

0:49

citizen , and so that's why you see behind

0:51

me my American and

0:53

German flag , and then the Ukrainian flag as well

0:55

for our friends there , and so wonderful

0:58

to be here with you . Let's dig in .

1:00

So at the time of the recording

1:02

of this podcast , I may or may not have

1:04

publicly announced that I'm currently

1:07

working on the second edition of

1:09

the book Creating Belonging

1:12

, and so I'm excited for the perspective

1:14

that Geoffrey brings to the table today

1:16

, because we're actually going to dig into

1:19

a couple of the areas of new

1:21

chapters that you'll see when

1:23

that second edition of the book comes out

1:26

. And so the first

1:28

, Geoffrey and I were having a little conversation before

1:30

today and I wanted to dig

1:32

into your experience in the past

1:34

, so kind of broadly speaking , about

1:36

one of the chapters . One of the new chapters

1:39

is going to be creating belonging

1:42

and leadership , and so

1:44

I wanted to dig into experiences

1:46

that you've had either as a leader or

1:48

working with other leaders , and

1:50

how the creating belonging model kind of

1:53

came into play

1:55

.

1:55

Yeah Well , and let me just say , justin , that

1:57

I applaud you for not only writing a

1:59

book but covering such an important topic like

2:01

belonging and leadership . I

2:04

have regularly , in my 15

2:06

plus years of a career , seen

2:09

so many different examples where

2:11

I haven't seen a leader truly espouse

2:13

creating a sense of belonging . And

2:16

there are many different examples that come to mind

2:18

, but in one particular example , I

2:21

served in an organization once in my

2:23

career with just a

2:25

leadership style that didn't

2:27

have not only a sense of belonging but

2:30

in many ways , not even a sense of respect

2:32

, appreciation or value for others , and

2:35

what I saw very quickly was

2:37

there . To me , one of

2:39

the greatest qualities of a leader is

2:42

to develop that sense of belonging . It's

2:44

through building a relationship that's art

2:46

, centered , authentic , meaningful

2:48

. And when

2:50

I came into the organization , just like any

2:52

time I come into an organization , for me it's

2:55

so critical to use the first

2:57

90 days to learn as much as possible

2:59

and to meet as many people as possible . And

3:02

as I was doing that , it was so clear

3:04

to me that there was

3:06

concerns and fear of

3:08

leaders in the organization

3:11

. And what was interesting

3:13

about it was , as I was sharing more because

3:15

I was part of the senior leadership team . As

3:18

I was sharing , more individuals were

3:20

coming more and more to me . Help

3:22

to me , help us navigate this . Tell us

3:24

why you do this differently , why are

3:26

you such a good listener , and just different

3:29

things like that . And I was like my gosh , like , first

3:31

of all , clearly , why am I here

3:33

? Like there was a part of me , you know , like I

3:35

made a mistake coming here , but then there's also a part of

3:37

me . I know I'm here because I'm here to help these

3:39

individuals and so , as long as I'm here , that's

3:42

what I'll make a mission and focus . And

3:44

even with my own team , I started to

3:46

recognize that these were really , you

3:48

know , significant challenges . And when I

3:50

started on packet , it was just clear

3:52

that there was sort of a leadership

3:55

culture there that was so much an I versus

3:57

a we and so much more of a

3:59

kind of old school command and

4:01

control and so

4:03

much of what I don't like about quote

4:06

unquote leadership is what I saw in that

4:08

experience . And there was no sense

4:10

of community , there was absolutely no

4:12

sense of belonging . There was just

4:14

an absolute sense of just

4:16

just get this done and do

4:18

it my way or the highway . And

4:21

what's interesting is , despite

4:24

that , despite a terrible track

4:26

record of people , despite a terrible

4:28

track record of retention , so

4:30

many of those leaders you know still are there in

4:32

their very roles today . And

4:35

so it's just interesting , you know , when you unpack

4:37

those types of things , you know

4:39

, when I look at it , the impact of

4:41

people and the impact of their

4:43

you know livelihood , their mindfulness

4:46

, you know , et cetera . It's just

4:48

really hurting when you see that .

4:51

I like so . So a I have worked

4:53

in my own handful of organizations

4:56

that have had kind of command

4:58

and control perspective

5:01

. That is definitely

5:03

not well suited for a knowledge

5:06

economy . But

5:08

I caught there were three words that you

5:10

said in succession respect

5:12

, appreciation and value

5:14

, which I love that

5:17

you know you're talking about . This

5:19

was something that was lacking . So this organization

5:22

was lacking respect , appreciation

5:24

and value , and

5:26

I think all of those things I

5:28

would lump into acceptance

5:31

. So we talked about in the creating belonging model

5:33

that belonging is created , the intersection of

5:35

authenticity and acceptance . And

5:37

so if we're lacking on acceptance but

5:39

we've got that eye perspective

5:42

not a wee perspective

5:44

, likely that leadership then kind of sitting

5:46

very much in a place of

5:48

overbearing yeah , curious

5:50

. Tell me a little bit more about

5:52

the leaders

5:55

, or the leader that kind of drove

5:57

, that , that overbearing perspective

5:59

and kind of what that looked like .

6:01

Yeah , you know it was in

6:03

some ways , when I look back , there's part of

6:05

me that almost doesn't want to look back

6:07

, right , because you know , some of those experiences

6:10

just sicken you to the core . But

6:12

some of the examples that I vividly

6:14

can remember , and you know team members

6:16

of mine would regularly say this to me , and

6:19

some of them , you know , some of them I'm very close to today

6:21

and , and you know , at times we'll

6:23

see each other at conferences and things and they'll be like

6:25

do you remember this email , do you remember this ? And

6:27

some of it was literally like in emails First

6:29

of all , no professional way of

6:31

communicating at all , very , very

6:34

directive . You know , very , very

6:36

short . You know , to the point , just

6:38

do this this way . You

6:40

know no level of

6:42

engagement . And you

6:45

know I can remember seeing some

6:47

of them and literally

6:50

thinking to myself did

6:52

you even read what you just wrote ? And

6:57

you know it's so interesting because

6:59

so many of the team members that I worked

7:01

with and even others that worked with you

7:04

know the organization said to

7:06

me that they got to a point where they just would

7:08

not read their emails after

7:10

a certain period of time because they

7:12

would come at all hours and they just , you know , they

7:14

just learn , don't even answer it , don't

7:16

acknowledge it until the next day

7:18

and sometimes don't even respond . And

7:21

you know that speaks to a level

7:23

of some level

7:26

of what you'd consider disengagement . Right

7:28

, some people would view that as disengagement . I

7:30

didn't . I viewed that for them as

7:32

they were trying to just cope with

7:34

what was an absolute atrocity

7:38

of an experience . And

7:40

you know , no one should have to

7:42

face that . Nobody should have to face

7:44

that . And you know I hate to say that but in

7:46

many ways to me it's abused when

7:49

a leader you know or a leadership

7:51

team communicates in that way with

7:53

individuals .

7:54

Yeah , yeah , I can think of an

7:57

organization that I worked in , and I think it

8:00

was also a global organization . I've worked in

8:02

several global organizations , but this global organization

8:05

where , you know , I would wake up at four

8:07

in the morning and some people had

8:09

already started their work day , and so , depending

8:11

on you know , whether I was looking at my email at

8:14

four in the morning or not could just set me

8:16

off in a mood right , and

8:18

so there's a bit of , I think , what's interesting , it's

8:20

getting me to think about in

8:22

leadership , when we think about the balance

8:25

of authenticity versus

8:27

acceptance , and

8:29

you know , acceptance being

8:31

those things that you mentioned before of respect

8:34

, appreciation , appreciation , value

8:36

, and I think then I'm thinking

8:38

the other word that I'm thinking to bring in there is context

8:41

Like what's the demand that the audience

8:43

that you're communicating with ? Yeah

8:45

, so that you know I

8:48

, when I were , I , would join a new team . You

8:51

know , sometimes some people work late and I never want

8:53

to like discourage someone from working

8:55

when they're in a place of genius , but

8:57

I definitely would also , you know , put

8:59

a caveat on any communication that

9:01

I sent after hours to be I

9:04

do not expect a response ever

9:06

like outside of out of normal

9:08

business hours and setting that as

9:11

an expectation so that people know

9:13

like , hey , I'm working right now because

9:15

it's what's good for me , but I also don't

9:17

expect it of you , right

9:19

, and very few people take that

9:21

kind of you know

9:23

perspective to

9:26

give that permission to others

9:28

that , hey , I'm working right now but doesn't

9:30

mean that you have to be .

9:34

There are some other examples of that

9:36

overbearing leadership

9:38

that you can think of , that

9:40

that surpassed Um

9:44

you know , I can remember some

9:46

, like even leadership team meetings

9:48

, where you know they would start out and

9:50

the desire was to , basically like , give updates

9:53

and ask for feedback , but

9:55

as soon as feedback would be received that it wasn't

9:57

, you know necessarily what they wanted to hear , they

9:59

would just , they would just shut it down . Well

10:02

, I have a lot and you

10:04

know , and so I think , organizationally

10:06

, what people literally learned is is

10:09

just to keep your head down and try and do what you can

10:11

, because it really didn't matter what you could

10:13

unless , unless you

10:15

know , you were doing it 100% to however

10:18

this individual thought it should be done . Okay

10:21

, I would say I

10:24

can . I'll never forget a

10:26

time where colleagues were actually presenting

10:29

and this was a remote environment

10:31

presenting and literally

10:34

, you know , a leader literally said

10:36

that's just a dumb idea . Wow

10:40

, you know , and this

10:42

was stated to members of my team and

10:45

I immediately

10:47

, immediately , left

10:49

the camera . I had to go off because

10:52

I was just so mortified

10:55

to be part of an organization

10:57

where anybody

11:00

would treat another person that way and

11:03

you know , for me it was one of those moments

11:05

where I would go back and I would reflect on

11:07

. You know , I had I started my

11:09

career in hospital administration and no

11:11

organization , as you know , is perfect , but I

11:14

worked with some of the best inclusive

11:16

leaders . There's

11:19

so many of the best inclusive leaders there

11:21

that I ever experienced in my in my career

11:23

. And one of the things that I can remember

11:25

of of one of the leaders that he always

11:28

said to me and this always resonates

11:30

with me is he said

11:32

you give everybody

11:35

a chance to share their value

11:37

, don't judge

11:39

, let them have it . And

11:43

it was always a moment when he said that

11:45

to me as a young leader that resonated

11:47

and literally my almost

11:50

10 years of working with this senior

11:53

vice president , I

11:55

could tell you that even in some of the most difficult

11:57

meetings , interactions that he was

11:59

in , he would give everybody

12:02

a chance to

12:04

share their value and literally

12:06

, if they weren't speaking

12:08

, he would just ask him do you have

12:10

anything you want to add ? And

12:13

if they said no , he was fine with that , but everyone

12:15

would have a chance . And

12:17

I thought to myself oh

12:20

, like that was early

12:22

on my career and this is later and this is what I'm seeing

12:24

. And that

12:26

was one of those moments where I definitely

12:29

reached out to them and apologized

12:32

to them . But I also realized

12:34

at that moment there's nothing

12:36

that I could do to fix this at this point , because

12:39

I'm just not in a position

12:41

of really influence or impact

12:43

or authority to do it anymore

12:45

. At that moment it was tough

12:47

because for me I'm not one to

12:50

ever shy away from what

12:52

I think is my responsibility , but at the same time

12:55

, when the person is the boss

12:57

, they're the boss . Unfortunately

12:59

in the circumstances , yeah

13:02

, yeah .

13:04

It makes me think of someone posted something recently

13:06

about the term toxic leadership

13:08

being an oxymoron , because

13:12

if someone's toxic , they're not being

13:15

a leader . But yes

13:17

, so , and I love what you're

13:19

adding there about you know , the

13:22

positive example of this

13:24

leader that said everyone can add some value

13:27

and how they

13:29

wanted to , you know , kind of go around and make sure that

13:31

everyone had a turn to contribute

13:34

, and that's one of the things that you

13:36

know . There are often comparisons to

13:38

the creating belonging work and then psychological

13:40

safety , and wasn't over there , but definitely

13:43

, when we talk about psychological safety , one

13:45

of the , you know , strategies

13:47

that's used and that came up in all

13:49

the Google research and product Aristotle

13:51

was that people

13:53

get equal opportunity to have

13:55

their voice heard , and so I think that's really

13:58

important as a leader is making sure that everyone

14:01

gets equal opportunity to

14:03

share their value . So

14:06

I love that . Thank you Absolutely

14:08

. I'm going to shift gears

14:10

a little bit . There's another

14:12

new chapter . We're going

14:15

to hit all new stuff today , another

14:17

new chapter that I'm looking at writing . That

14:20

was a very recent addition and

14:22

I'm excited to dig into some of the research

14:24

there , so it's very conceptual at this point

14:26

, but I know that you have a

14:29

passion for allyship

14:32

, and so the context or

14:34

the subject is really creating

14:36

belonging and allyship and the role of allyship

14:38

and creating belonging , and I've got

14:41

many thoughts of where this could go . But

14:43

I'm curious you know , when we talk about allyship

14:45

and creating belonging , you know

14:48

how you see your role in allyship

14:50

?

14:52

Yeah . So you know , it's a really , really

14:55

important aspect

14:57

to your point around around

15:00

all aspects , frankly , of diversity , equity , inclusion

15:02

and belonging . In my view , is

15:04

the important role of an ally . And I

15:07

think what's important though as I've always learned

15:09

in allyship is is you can't , you

15:12

can't , just say you're an ally In

15:14

some ways . You've got to also , at times , be welcomed

15:16

in to be an ally , and

15:19

then you've also got to demonstrate that walk

15:21

as an ally consistently

15:23

and passionately . And

15:26

a number of years ago I

15:28

was , I was talking with a mentor of

15:30

mine , and you

15:33

know somebody who does this work at a very high level

15:36

in healthcare , and she said to me you know , you've

15:39

got to , you've got to use your voice

15:41

. And I was like , okay , well , that's

15:43

great , I know , I have it . And she said no

15:45

, no , no , you've got to use your voice to get other

15:47

people to the table and you've got to lift

15:50

it up for them , because they don't always

15:52

have the opportunities that you have

15:54

. And I remember , like I was sitting there and I was thinking

15:56

and this was on a zoom conversation I'm like looking

15:59

at her , like okay , where's

16:01

this going ? And and

16:04

she looked at me and she said Listen

16:06

, I'm Latina , you are

16:08

white . You better use that white

16:10

privilege . You have to make

16:12

sure I have a seat at the table , and

16:15

I remember sitting at that moment like whoa

16:17

, like okay , and then

16:19

I sat back and I thought she's

16:22

onto something , like I've been doing

16:24

this work , but I've got to really make sure

16:27

that I'm leaning in . And so , to

16:29

your point , since

16:31

that time , I really started

16:33

to be more

16:35

aware , specifically

16:38

, of situations and experiences

16:40

where individuals

16:43

may be facing cultures

16:45

or situations or environments where

16:48

they're not getting heard , they're not

16:50

getting valued , they're not getting appreciated

16:52

and and and , in very many ways

16:54

, it's based on their culture

16:56

, is based on their ethnicity , it's based on how

16:59

they identify . And so , you

17:01

know , for me , all of that is just absolutely

17:04

crazy to think

17:06

that in 2023 , that is still the case

17:08

. And so I have really just started in

17:10

, started to really leverage

17:13

, not just engaging as

17:15

an ally , but using my voice to ask

17:17

questions of those in

17:19

those types of situations to understand like

17:22

, well , you can say you're

17:24

, for you know , inclusive practice

17:26

, but but do you understand what you're doing by

17:28

doing that ? And an

17:31

experience that comes to mind is I had served

17:33

in an organization once

17:35

where you know , was

17:37

in a higher education setting and

17:40

you know , interestingly enough

17:42

, there was actually more females

17:44

in the workforce there than

17:46

males . But the leadership

17:48

of the organization was much more male

17:51

dominated and

17:53

, you know , very old school

17:55

male dominated , to be honest . And what

17:57

I would notice was , you know , you could just

18:00

tell there were so many individuals

18:02

who , clearly

18:06

, we're some of the brightest , most

18:08

capable , best

18:10

in their class

18:12

from an expertise level , but

18:15

literally felt their voice wasn't

18:17

heard , there was nothing they could contribute

18:19

. And you

18:21

know , I happen to be part of the leadership team and

18:24

I can remember

18:26

sitting down with a colleague once and

18:28

she literally said to me I'm already with a

18:30

PhD from

18:33

a very , very good school . And

18:35

she said to me it's really interesting

18:38

that you can be heard much

18:40

more quickly than I can . And

18:43

it was one of those moments where I was like wait

18:46

, wait , we need to unpack this . And

18:49

as we unpacked it , you know , we got talking

18:52

and this is somebody I'm very , very close with today

18:54

, a phenomenal professional , an

18:56

amazing leader , but

18:59

somebody who clearly this organization was

19:01

just holding

19:04

back , this organization was

19:06

stymie , being any chance of

19:08

progression or grace , and

19:10

I never really could understand it other

19:13

than it was . You

19:16

know we're going to just continue

19:18

our status quo of this group

19:21

being in the lead and no one else is

19:23

going to get to that table . And even when

19:25

there is , you know different

19:28

, you know gender diversity on the leadership

19:30

, you know leadership team . It was

19:32

clear who were making the decisions . It

19:34

was clear who was in the room when decisions

19:37

were made . It was clear who was

19:39

listened to and who wasn't . And

19:41

it was clear who was felt

19:43

. You know who felt like they were being held back

19:45

and not advanced . And

19:48

you know , I started

19:50

to realize , like here's

19:53

a moment of allyship either

19:55

. You know , yes , is it risky for me to

19:57

step forward and ask questions ? Sure , but

20:00

at the end of the day , if I'm not

20:02

willing to step up and

20:04

stand in for those who can't

20:06

even get heard , what am I good

20:09

for ? And so I started to just

20:11

ask questions , started to , you

20:13

know , just put forward things like hey

20:15

, what about this person for this group ? Why

20:18

not put this person on this committee ? Why

20:20

not ask them to serve ? Why is this person

20:22

a chair ? But this person is in a chair , why

20:24

are there only male leaders in this area ? And

20:28

you know , I could tell wasn't welcome

20:30

, you know , and I started to get more ostracized

20:32

and pushed out of things . And

20:35

, you know , and I started to realize , like you know

20:37

, for me , unfortunately , this isn't going to be a

20:39

long-term , long-term place

20:41

, because that is not a culture that

20:44

I want to be a part of . But

20:46

but there was an important lesson , you

20:48

know , for me in that , and that was

20:50

as an ally , you've

20:52

got to be willing to speak up for

20:55

those who need you to , and

20:58

sometimes for those who may not even think they

21:01

need you to , and you also have

21:03

to be willing to

21:05

, to put

21:08

yourself on the line in

21:10

those situations , because

21:12

so

21:15

many people have done so much

21:17

in this quest for belonging for

21:19

so long . You

21:21

know , and I thought you know , as a college student I

21:23

was privileged to hear

21:26

Congressman John Lewis speak and

21:28

to have met Congressman Lewis , and

21:31

I'll never forget when I was

21:33

in college , congressman Lewis said to a group

21:35

of us students just

21:38

remember that I was beaten almost to death to

21:41

fight for civil rights , and

21:44

I'll never forget . He looked at all of us and said what will you

21:46

fight for one day and

21:49

how will you be selfless in doing

21:51

so ? And I'm not in

21:54

any way , in any way

21:56

, comparing this

21:58

example to that , but

22:00

what I am comparing is the

22:02

importance that we look

22:05

out for others and be willing

22:07

to put forward our

22:10

voice for another , for

22:12

others or another in those circumstances

22:15

, because what was clear

22:17

to me in that was

22:20

that the individuals who were not being heard

22:22

at least felt like they had somebody

22:24

who would hear them . Yeah , thank

22:26

you .

22:28

That's really thank you for sharing that . It's such

22:30

a great experience to pull from

22:32

and it's I love that

22:34

you've had people who have called you and

22:37

have called you onto the carpet to say , hey

22:41

, this is something you value , so

22:43

it's time to put your actions into

22:46

play . But I wanted to come back to a couple

22:48

of funds . That's number one is just this idea that

22:50

Allied ship is not . It's not a

22:52

permanent label , Like

22:55

you don't just get to be an ally and

22:57

it's a badge that you've earned and then you keep

22:59

that badge forever . You

23:01

know , an ally , an ally ship

23:03

, is work , that you have to renew

23:05

that badge every single day

23:07

. You have to bring something

23:10

to help move

23:12

people forward . And there's also this

23:14

concept of being welcomed

23:16

in , and I want to dig into

23:18

that a little bit because you had mentioned there's . There's

23:21

a really careful balance in something

23:23

you said of kind of speaking

23:25

up for people and working towards

23:27

their , for their voice

23:29

, even if they don't realize it . But

23:32

there's a balance there , right Of like

23:34

we can't speak on behalf of other

23:36

people , but we do need to make sure that we're

23:39

elevating over their voices

23:41

and that kind of coming in with that being welcomed

23:43

in . I'm curious if you could tell me a little bit more

23:45

of how you strike that ballot .

23:47

Yeah , you know to your

23:49

point , it is an everyday learning and

23:51

development process , and

23:54

it also really critical , particularly

23:57

when you because there's a difference

23:59

between and you know , and I often have said people

24:01

really have to understand this there's a big difference

24:03

between being an advocate and being an ally

24:05

. And it is

24:07

not easy to be

24:09

an ally Because

24:12

, to your exact point , you have to be willing and

24:14

able to take feedback too , because

24:16

you can't I don't live that life , I

24:19

don't know what it's like to walk that . What

24:22

I know is that if I'm welcomed

24:25

into that allyship , I'm

24:27

expected to speak up

24:29

and I'm expected

24:31

to contribute as

24:34

a vital , active voice in

24:36

the work to create a better

24:38

sense of belonging or a more inclusive

24:40

culture , and so

24:43

I have to be absolutely

24:45

committed . But I also have to be willing

24:47

and able to accept feedback , because there are times that

24:49

maybe I'm not walking

24:51

the walk that

24:53

I have been invited into , maybe

24:56

I'm contributing in the way that I was expected

24:59

to , and so I have to be willing

25:01

to take that honest feedback , and that may

25:03

mean that I'm no longer

25:05

invited or welcomed in as an ally

25:07

, because it may mean that I've walked

25:10

too far a line . And so to

25:12

me , it is an absolute everyday

25:15

process and I think to your

25:17

point . What's so critical

25:19

in that I always think about

25:22

is it's

25:25

almost like when you describe it it

25:28

is both a privilege but

25:30

an enormous amount of responsibility

25:32

. And particularly

25:35

when you're invited in as

25:37

an ally , you have to be

25:39

willing to experience

25:42

aspect that

25:46

are going to be very new for you and

25:50

be willing to ask a

25:52

lot of questions that you're in a position

25:54

to really understand . If you hear

25:56

something or experience something or see

25:58

something that you're going to be the absolute

26:00

first to say excuse

26:03

me , did you just really say

26:05

what you said ? Because

26:08

I'm not so sure that would

26:10

be an appropriate way to say it . And

26:14

at the same time , you

26:16

have

26:19

to be careful because

26:21

you can't

26:23

go too far , because

26:26

so many people who desire

26:28

to have allies could be extremely

26:30

vulnerable because of what we

26:32

have done in our society to them

26:35

and , unfortunately , sometimes

26:37

with them , and so you

26:40

have to be really , really careful and thoughtful

26:42

around that , which is why I always say

26:44

, particularly in leadership , we have

26:46

kind of make it or break it moments

26:49

for people . We can either

26:51

help them to kind of make it

26:53

to the next step or we can literally be

26:55

the ones that break it for them

26:57

. And I've always felt the same is so true

26:59

in allyship , and I'll say that

27:02

it always has been , and it continues

27:04

to be , a learning and development opportunity

27:07

for me . And I think of some of the most

27:09

ultimate allies that are very public , and

27:11

I think of people like Pink . I

27:14

personally love Pink , I've been to many Pink concerts

27:16

, but I look at what Pink did recently

27:18

in the state of Florida and that's

27:20

a very , very vocal public allyship

27:24

demonstration to say , hey , you want to ban

27:26

books ? Well , I'm going to give you all those ban books right

27:28

back and I want you to take them into the school

27:30

districts , because not only are you banning books , but

27:33

you're banning the very identities of the authors

27:35

and the very identity of the people who

27:38

are referenced in those books , and

27:40

that is not okay . And

27:42

so you know I look at someone like that , because

27:44

every Pink concert I've been to , what

27:47

I see preached is a sense of inclusion

27:49

and what I see preached is a sense of community

27:51

, and so you know

27:53

that element is really , really important

27:55

. But I'll also say there are times where even Pink

27:58

herself will make a mistake , and you know what People

28:00

will say take a step back and you got to

28:02

learn from that . And so it's that element

28:04

of not just emotional intelligence

28:07

, but that we've got a level set

28:09

with ourselves too , that we're humans

28:11

too and we have to learn , you know

28:13

, from every experience .

28:16

Yeah , yeah , I think we have

28:18

to approach it with that learning mindset

28:20

and

28:23

bravery , because it takes bravery to get

28:25

out there . I'm just a lot of . This conversation

28:27

is making me think about a workshop I

28:29

did a little while back , had a

28:31

conversation with one of the participants

28:33

who , and it was asked to the program

28:36

and had a conversation with them

28:38

and they hadn't spoken

28:40

up at all at all , like not

28:42

a peep came out of their mouth and

28:45

you know we talked about it and they

28:47

just they shared like look , I'm a white

28:49

male and

28:52

I'm probably going to say something wrong , and

28:54

so it's easier if I just don't speak up

28:56

. And the more we dug into it

28:59

, it was around you know the

29:01

Ansel culture that we have , like

29:03

you say the one wrong thing and then you're

29:06

done , no more , which I

29:08

don't . I don't believe in it . We

29:10

have to give people an opportunity to learn

29:12

and move forward , and

29:15

so that takes some bravery and an acceptance

29:18

that you know I am going to screw up

29:20

and then I'm going to learn from it and move

29:22

forward . And then the last thought that I

29:24

have around kind of I love the pink example

29:26

in the books , I love that story

29:29

of what she did there , and

29:31

we don't all have the resources to be able to

29:33

give out 2000 books to the concert

29:35

, but we do have some

29:38

influence over someone

29:40

that we can can be an

29:43

ally , and so we just have

29:45

to keep doing the work and

29:47

showing up . Absolutely yeah , Geoffrey

29:50

, thank you so much for

29:52

taking some time to chat with me today

29:55

. I'm excited to have your

29:57

stories a part of this work , and

30:00

I'm also excited that we got to dig into some of the

30:02

new topics that I'll be exploring in

30:04

the second edition of Creating Belonging . So

30:07

thank you so much , Geoffrey .

30:08

You're so welcome . Thank you for having me .

30:11

And thank you all , stay tuned for another

30:13

episode of the Creating Belonging podcast

30:16

.