0:01

Where were you, Jennifer, when

0:03

you heard the news about the leaked

0:06

draft opinion from the Supreme

0:07

Court? And tell me about

0:10

that moment. What what what happened?

0:12

I

0:12

felt

0:12

like the air kinda just got knocked out of me

0:14

because I was, you know, that was the

0:17

one thing I was kinda still, like, okay.

0:19

All these horrible bills are being signed, but

0:21

if we get if a row can just hold,

0:23

you know, we have a foothold. And,

0:26

you know, whenever you're kind of

0:28

hoping that that's the one thing that's gonna save

0:31

you and then to find out that

0:33

more than likely it's gonna fall, it was just

0:37

you know, it was almost

0:39

like,

0:39

well, that's that's perfect. Great.

0:41

You know, what are we gonna do now?

0:46

You know, everybody's scared. Every

0:48

single person that walks in our clinic, you

0:50

can see the fear. On

0:53

their basis. So

0:55

as of last week in

0:57

Oklahoma, we cannot go above

1:00

six weeks. There's the SB6

1:02

twelve, so that's gonna make it a

1:04

felony for any doctor to perform abortion

1:07

in Oklahoma at any stage. And

1:10

so we had women coming in knowing

1:13

that they may be the last patients that will

1:15

get their abortion in our

1:16

clinic, and it was just spear because they're

1:18

like, what if this happens again? What am

1:20

I supposed to do? So

1:23

in a way, ROW

1:25

was your life raft. Yeah.

1:30

Did it mean, you know, this this

1:32

bill that's banned it entirely? Did

1:35

you think about

1:35

yourself, Jennifer, that you could potentially be

1:37

charged with a felony? I mean, just by doing this

1:40

work? Yeah.

1:43

Yeah. I mean, I've definitely you know,

1:45

I've thought about it, and I

1:47

definitely know that I'm part of that.

1:49

But I just

1:51

feel like if that's what's gonna

1:53

have to happen to me 2 continue to give

1:55

these women the support they

1:56

need, then I'll take it. What's

2:01

gonna happen is gonna happen? I'll take

2:03

whatever's gonna come from it. From

2:08

The New York Times, I'm Sabrina

2:10

Tafferty see. This is

2:12

The Daily. Last

2:15

week, we spoke to anti abortion activists

2:17

about how they were preparing for a future

2:20

without rosy Wade. Today,

2:25

we talk to people working in abortion clinics

2:28

about how they are preparing for that future

2:31

and what it means for their patience

2:34

and their lives. It's

2:37

Wednesday, May eleventh. Susan,

2:45

where were you when you first

2:48

heard about the leak from the Supreme

2:50

Court? The draft opinion on

2:52

the Mississippi case? I was

2:54

here at my home. Oh, it's been

2:56

bad. Just scrolling. So

2:58

it's my quiet time and I don't have to wake up

3:00

my husband and, you know, that I

3:02

just remember reading that

3:04

and I was I'm just devastated. Mhmm.

3:07

But it's just like when we undo after

3:09

another, it's like I can't you

3:12

know, it's it's just like being

3:14

a prize fight and getting one

3:17

knocked down after another. And

3:19

it's just the really

3:22

sad. My

3:27

name is doctor Susan Dodd.

3:29

I'm a Ford certified

3:31

OBGYN doctor who

3:33

practiced my career in

3:35

Knoxville, Tennessee. So

3:38

I finished working there about

3:40

a year

3:40

ago. I'm seven

3:44

and enjoying retirement. So

3:47

Susan, tell me a little bit about your background.

3:49

Did you grow up in Tennessee?

3:51

Yes. I grew up in Gatlinburg, Tennessee,

3:53

which is right at the foot of the Shunky

3:55

Mountain National Park. That's Dolly Parton

3:58

territory. Right? Yeah. Oh. Dolly

4:00

Parton used to babysit me. Really?

4:04

Yeah. Wow. But anyway,

4:06

I always enjoyed school and

4:09

also enjoyed my boyfriend

4:11

probably a little too much. And

4:15

at eight sixteen, our condom

4:17

failed. And when I found

4:19

out to my dismay that I was pregnant

4:22

and I wanted to go on to college.

4:24

My older sister came into town,

4:27

and we found a doctor

4:29

in Nokichel. Who was doing

4:31

abortions illegally in

4:33

his clinic. What year would that have been,

4:35

Susan? That was let's see. I

4:38

was sixteen. I'm 667.

4:40

Nineteen seventy

4:41

two. The year before For the

4:42

year before row. Row. Right. But

4:45

-- Yeah. -- I went to see him in October.

4:47

My sister took me and told

4:50

the doctor I was pregnant. He

4:52

did a gynecologic exam

4:55

and said, Yes.

4:57

You're fairly early. You'll come

4:59

back at five o'clock, and he told me how much

5:01

money to bring. And

5:03

How much was I will five hundred

5:05

dollars?

5:06

Wow. It was a lot in nineteen seventy's

5:08

dollars. Yeah. Yeah. So

5:12

my boyfriend helped me out at that point.

5:14

He asked us to come back after the

5:16

court to get closed. We did so.

5:19

Was it scary? Oh,

5:22

it was scary as hell. It

5:24

was my first gynecologic experience,

5:26

and it was pretty traumatic. It

5:29

it

5:29

hurt. Quite a bit. Of course

5:31

back there and you didn't have any anesthesia

5:34

at all.

5:34

My my sister told me she was in the

5:36

waiting room waiting and She said, I heard

5:39

you screaming and almost came back.

5:41

And I said, well, yeah, I really heard.

5:44

But he knew what he was doing. He did

5:46

did a very well while. Suffered no

5:48

consequences. And

5:51

I was kind of a naive

5:53

sixteen year old. But it changed

5:55

the course of my life. I would not

5:57

have had the opportunity to go

5:59

on to

6:00

college. Would

6:01

you have been the first generation to go

6:03

to college? You and your sisters? Oh,

6:05

we were in in our family for sure.

6:07

Yeah. I don't think

6:09

my dad ever finished eighth

6:11

grade. I'm not sure he could read My

6:14

mother had to fight her mother to

6:16

finish high

6:17

school. Her mother didn't see him reads him

6:19

for girls to get educated.

6:21

Wow. So this was incredibly important

6:23

to you. Yes.

6:26

And Susan, what did this mean for your

6:28

life, this experience? How did it change

6:31

you? Yeah. It defined

6:33

my whole life. It's the reason

6:35

I became an OB GYN. I

6:42

finished my residency in

6:44

nineteen eighty seven and joined a

6:46

group of older doctors at the University

6:49

of Tennessee Hospital in Knoxville.

6:52

In two thousand and nine, main

6:56

abortion provider in

6:58

Knoxville, Tennessee had a hemorrhagic

7:01

stroke and treasuries died.

7:06

And when doctor Campbell passed away,

7:09

there was no other doctor

7:12

performing abortions in Knoxville.

7:15

And I felt very strongly

7:17

that the women of East Tennessee

7:20

needed an option that they didn't need

7:22

to be driving hundreds of miles

7:25

to have a termination of a pregnancy. And

7:28

I explained this to my Ben

7:31

partners and said, I'm

7:33

going to go over to the clinic on my days

7:35

old. And perform

7:37

abortions. And I would like you

7:40

to join me. But what

7:42

happened was the community

7:45

outrage at abortion, made

7:48

every OB GYN in town

7:51

a afraid to do them.

7:58

The other partners got together

8:01

and they decided that going

8:03

over 2 the abortion clinic was not good for

8:05

our reputation in the community. And

8:09

they instructed me to stop. I

8:11

didn't, and they fired me.

8:13

So in two thousand

8:15

and nine, after practicing with group twenty

8:17

five years. I was

8:20

out of the group and I continued

8:23

at Knoxville Center for Reproductive Health.

8:25

Where Dr. Campbell had had his

8:27

practice. Do you

8:29

remember any patients that

8:33

you provided abortions for

8:35

kind of a moment that really sticks in

8:37

your

8:37

memory? Oh,

8:39

every patient I saw with the clinic. So

8:42

many of them had so many

8:45

sad stories about this

8:47

is why I'm doing this stock. And,

8:50

you know, I have three kids at home. My husband

8:52

and I are working full time. Our

8:54

birth 2 failed. I can barely

8:56

see the three I have. You can just

8:59

go through story after story after story.

9:01

These women are doing it for the children

9:04

I already have, for the commitments

9:06

I already

9:06

have, for the future they have planned.

9:09

And to me, abortion

9:12

is a part of women's reproductive

9:14

health. Susan Has

9:17

the environment

9:19

become more hostile? Oh,

9:21

yeah. A lot more. The

9:24

protesters would be there. They've getting

9:26

my license plate. They would I

9:28

would get threatening letters. You

9:31

you know, mostly they were based

9:33

on religiously, I was

9:35

gonna go to hell and that I were to

9:37

breakfast all my life and

9:40

that kind of thing. I got

9:42

outdoor lighting for my

9:44

home so that people

9:46

couldn't hide in the bushes and

9:49

so on. So it really affected

9:51

our lives. My husband.

9:54

My husband bought me a bulletproof vest.

9:57

What? What? Yeah. Because

10:00

going into the clinic, I was surprised

10:02

I would get a shot,

10:04

and I was

10:06

broken. Did you wear it? Yeah. Oh,

10:08

yeah.

10:09

Every time I went to the clinic.

10:12

Wow. And how often did you go to

10:14

the clinic? About twice a week.

10:16

Susan,

10:18

did you think it would get like this

10:20

and up like this? I mean, when you think

10:23

about fifty years ago and nineteen

10:25

seventy three and

10:27

you know, when you had your abortion illegally?

10:30

I never dreamed that

10:32

we would we would go this

10:36

or against abortion.

10:38

Right now, we have a trigger law.

10:41

If row versus wade is

10:44

overturned, then

10:46

immediately, these laws will go into

10:48

effect. No terminations after

10:51

a heartbeat is found, the

10:53

person performing the abortion. It's

10:56

a class e felony. There's

10:59

no penalty to the one that has an

11:01

abortion, but the provider is

11:04

is a felon. And, essentially,

11:07

it will completely outlaw all abortions

11:09

in Tennessee. This is

11:11

just all amazing to me that

11:14

we've gone backwards so far.

11:22

But what does it feel like to kind

11:24

of have come full circle, Susan? Despair.

11:30

I think we'll see

11:32

a lot of women die and a lot

11:34

of unfortunate situations 2.

11:39

So many women, especially women

11:42

who grew up poor like men, They're

11:45

2 be able to fly California or New

11:47

York. So it's gonna be women

11:49

who grew up like me, and they

11:51

don't have the resources. That

11:54

are gonna have to deal with the consequences of

11:56

going to somebody that don't know

11:59

and asking them to perform a procedure

12:02

that's illegal and

12:04

maybe is it

12:06

done right?

12:09

To me, it's still unbelievable. That

12:13

this day and time will come

12:15

to death.

12:22

So my name is Sunniva Williams. I'm

12:25

originally from Ohio. I'm

12:27

thirty

12:28

seven. And I am

12:30

a full spectrum optician

12:32

and gynecologist. My practice

12:34

includes abortion care. I've

12:36

been practicing abortion since

12:39

2 thousand and fourteen probably

12:42

was the earliest and had practiced

12:44

in

12:45

Missouri, California, Mississippi

12:49

and now Alabama. Oh,

12:51

wow.

12:52

When I started medical school,

12:54

I knew that I was interested in a textbook

12:57

on oncology. But I still hadn't

12:59

made the connection of, like, oh, this is something that

13:01

I need to be doing. And what

13:03

that bridge came from was

13:05

actually volunteering in a abortion clinic.

13:08

You know, I am a black woman.

13:10

I saw that so many

13:13

of the patients were coming through

13:15

were also black women and other

13:17

women of color. And the providers,

13:20

while wonderful, were all older

13:22

white men. And so, know,

13:24

while I wanted to serve

13:26

all women thinking about, like,

13:29

serving and helping and providing for

13:31

black women was really something that was really

13:33

important to me. And so from there,

13:35

I kind of got really interested in abortion.

13:38

So when I was in that space and really

13:40

could see, okay, these are folks from my actual

13:42

community. These are black women.

13:44

We are the same person. I just happen

13:47

to not be pregnant right now. We come from

13:49

the same areas, but I think the

13:51

ability to kind of see yourself reflected

13:54

back can sometimes help

13:56

with some of the stigma that

13:58

oftentimes comes from seeking

14:01

out abortion care or how

14:03

it's perceived within personal

14:05

communities and that sort of thing. And

14:07

so that's kind of where where

14:09

all of that came from. You

14:12

said

14:13

they were

14:14

me except I wasn't pregnant.

14:17

And what do you mean? I mean,

14:19

I am I'm just a regular

14:21

black girl. Right? I

14:24

I didn't grow up in privilege. I grew up

14:27

in an area where I

14:29

I don't think that we were necessarily in

14:31

an area of poverty, but we definitely weren't,

14:33

like, upper class or anything like

14:35

that. Mhmm.

14:36

We had a lot of people who had

14:39

teenage pregnancies. When I was

14:41

in in high school, we all were, like, going

14:43

2 the local planned parents who are getting on birth control

14:46

pills and all of those sorts of things. So,

14:48

you

14:48

know, I just happened to be somebody

14:51

who was for

14:53

lack of a better term, but lucky. Right? I was

14:56

lucky that I hadn't gotten pregnant to

14:58

that point. But there wasn't

15:00

anything that was different or special

15:02

about me. Like, literally, I would see people who I

15:04

like 2 school with in their recovery

15:06

room.

15:06

Mhmm.

15:06

But I will say, you know, one of the things that

15:09

frequently works out in my favor. One

15:11

of the few times it does from this perspective

15:14

is as a black woman

15:16

going into abortion clinic is always

15:18

presumed that I'm a patient. It's never

15:20

presumed that I'm the doctor until they

15:22

like, see me a hundred times, but in no way.

15:25

Right. And

15:25

so that really protected me. I realized

15:28

after doing the

15:30

work several times no

15:32

matter what area of the country you're

15:34

in, the assumption always

15:36

is as a black woman that you are the patient.

15:39

I almost feel like it's kind

15:41

of like funny trick on the protester if

15:43

that makes sense.

15:44

Mhmm.

15:44

Because I don't think that it's necessarily a

15:47

negative to be presumed to be a

15:49

patient. I mean, I could be a patient. Right? Like,

15:51

we just talked about that. But

15:53

I sometimes feel like their biases are

15:56

actually kind of shooting them in the foot a little

15:58

bit.

15:58

Right. Yeah. So

16:00

in some ways, it feels sometimes like

16:02

I'm being a little stealth about it.

16:05

It's like they don't get to be their most effective

16:08

because they're making an absolutely

16:10

wrong assumption about

16:11

you. And you're kinda going you're kinda going

16:13

along with it and subverting them. So in a way,

16:15

you're in control.

16:16

Right. Like, I'm I'm in on the joke.

16:18

Exactly.

16:19

No. You're making a joke.

16:21

Well, that's true. Yes. Yes.

16:28

Dr. Williams, where were

16:30

you at the moment you

16:33

heard about the leaked Supreme Court

16:35

document. What were you doing at that exact

16:37

moment? I think it was

16:39

standing in my kitchen. I don't know

16:41

exactly what I was doing, but I

16:43

received it over a text message.

16:46

So I have a text thread with a few

16:49

other providers who provide across

16:51

the south, someone sent out

16:53

the link to the political article.

16:56

And I think my first thought was

16:59

Oh my god. What are we gonna do? I

17:01

think my second thought was

17:06

I'm gonna be sick. And I

17:08

think that comes from just how

17:11

painful it felt. Even

17:19

with row currently being on the books, the people

17:21

who suffer are people who look like me. Right?

17:24

People who are black and brown, people who

17:27

have other marginalized identities, people

17:29

who are queer, people who are lower

17:31

income. All of those folks

17:33

are the people who suffer the

17:36

And, you know, what the draft decision

17:38

said to me is I don't I don't actually care

17:41

about that. I don't care how it's going

17:43

to change the way in which they're able

17:46

to live their lives and create their

17:47

lives. I don't care about that.

17:49

Howard Bauchner: And I think of course what they

17:51

would say is, well, we are

17:53

saving lives, and that is the thing that matters

17:55

the

17:56

most. Yeah.

17:58

I mean, I think that there is

18:00

more to life

18:03

than simply being alive. Right?

18:11

Being able to to

18:15

be loved and to be supported

18:17

and to be able

18:19

to thrive are,

18:22

I think, vital to the human

18:25

experience. And there

18:28

have been and are ample opportunities to

18:31

kind of create better lives

18:33

for the people in this

18:34

country, and it just hasn't panned

18:37

out. And so I just

18:39

I don't I just don't buy into that. We'll

19:00

be right back.

19:10

My name is Dr. David Eisenberg. I'm a

19:12

board certified up a nutrition gynecologist, and

19:14

I provide abortion care in the state of this metropolitan

19:16

area. I've been involved in

19:18

abortion care and reproductive health

19:21

issues since I started medical

19:23

school

19:24

in Birmingham, Alabama and worked

19:26

as volunteer patient escort as the planned

19:28

parenthood there.

19:32

So for the last three years, we

19:35

have been living with the

19:37

reality that people are now

19:40

like waking up to, which

19:42

is because of the regulatory

19:45

burden in the state of Missouri, and

19:47

because of the persecution that happened

19:50

in the spring of twenty nineteen, the

19:53

planned parenthood of St. Louis region in Southwestern

19:55

Missouri -- Mhmm. Spent time

19:57

and money building out a new space in

19:59

Southern Illinois to take care of the

20:01

Missouri patients

20:03

who needed us

20:05

And we knew we would eventually not

20:07

be able to provide care for in Missouri.

20:10

And so ninety nine percent of the abortion

20:13

care that are apparent an affiliate provides

20:15

and has provided since

20:18

early twenty twenty, late twenty nineteen

20:20

has been in Southern Illinois. And

20:23

because of the

20:24

volume, I am no longer

20:26

providing outpatient abortion care

20:28

in the state of Missouri. All the validation

20:30

of of motion care that I provide is

20:33

now in the state of Illinois.

20:36

And one of the things that has come

20:38

up over and over again since the

20:40

Supreme Court draft decision was

20:43

leaked. Is people reaching out

20:45

to me and saying David, what are we 2 What

20:48

do we do on row falls? My answer

20:50

is, what we have been doing? What

20:52

makes me angry? What I'm resentful about

20:55

is how far

20:57

we've gone backwards and

20:59

that we are going

21:02

at a faster pace.

21:06

David, a lot of the people we've

21:08

been talking to on the other

21:11

side are talking a lot

21:13

about, you know, social services

21:15

that that the end of row will mean lots

21:18

more women will will need more

21:20

help with funding, help with

21:22

getting apartments help with getting diapers

21:24

because lots more women will be having carrying

21:27

their pregnancies to term. I'm

21:29

interested what you think

21:32

of that.

21:39

I I think it's disingenuous because

21:43

if people really cared

21:46

about the children

21:48

that come from these pregnancies, then

21:52

we would have universal pre k.

21:55

We would have health

21:58

care be a right and not a privilege

22:00

in this country. And that

22:02

you don't just qualify for Medicaid

22:04

when you're pregnant but even

22:06

when you're not. If

22:09

we really cared about the

22:11

outcome of every single pregnancy, we

22:14

would make sure that

22:16

people had paid

22:19

maternity and maternity leave

22:22

available to them that did not jeopardize

22:24

their future. If people

22:26

really valued families

22:29

and children and the people who bear

22:31

those children, then all

22:33

of those other things would

22:36

already be in place. But

22:38

this is not about the children

22:41

that may or may not come from a pregnancy.

22:44

This is about the status of women And

22:46

whether they are full, capable,

22:50

society equals

22:54

to

22:55

men. You

22:57

know,

22:58

it it there's nothing black

23:00

or white about this. I acknowledge

23:03

that if someone chooses to not

23:05

continue a pregnancy, that

23:07

is ending the possibility of

23:09

a child that is ending the

23:12

possibility of life. I'm

23:14

not discounting that. I

23:17

value the lives of my children

23:19

and all of the children who have been

23:21

brought to bear. But

23:23

it's not up to me. I'm not

23:25

the one who has to carry that pregnancy. I'm

23:28

not the one who has to put food on the table

23:31

and just clothe that child and make sure

23:33

they're healthy. My

23:35

job And I believe

23:37

every person's job in

23:39

this world is

23:41

to be a

23:43

nice person and to be respectful

23:46

of each other and to give

23:48

each other great and,

23:51

you know, respect their wishes

23:53

and desires. And I

23:55

recognize there are people out

23:57

there who believe that

24:00

life begins at some specific

24:03

moment in time but

24:05

I expect them to respect my

24:07

belief that they

24:10

can choose to opt out of abortion

24:12

care and abortion experiences if

24:14

that's their overall view. I

24:17

choose to opt into it. I'm

24:19

a conscientious

24:20

provider. It is a part

24:23

of my moral and, you know,

24:24

religious worldview

24:28

The person who's pregnant knows what's

24:30

best for them and that

24:33

I am trained and capable to

24:35

provide them whatever

24:37

aspect of care they need for that pregnancy.

24:44

So, just a good By the way, is it okay if

24:46

I call you Jess, do you prefer doctor Rubino?

24:49

How do you prefer I address you?

24:51

Jess is fine. I really it's fine. Okay.

24:55

Okay. So I'm doctor Jessica Rubino,

24:58

and I work at Austin Women's Health Center.

25:00

I've been there for about four years. I've been

25:02

doing abortions for little bit

25:04

longer than that almost five years, I think, at this

25:06

point. I am going

25:08

to be thirty seven years old this summer.

25:11

And have been just

25:13

practicing under all those other restrictions

25:15

that made me mad, the twenty four hour waiting period,

25:18

and the script of things aren't true and

25:20

blah blah blah. And that all lasted

25:22

until September. And then

25:24

September started in, we entered a new

25:27

kind of hell.

25:29

We are only allowed to provide roughly

25:31

up until six weeks. And

25:33

that's SBA, the six week ban.

25:35

Right,

25:35

Jess? Correct. So not only do we

25:37

have to wade through the stress of feeling like,

25:39

okay, are you too far? Are you not? I'm about

25:41

to tell you which is gonna have some big implications

25:44

for your life. And what you have to do over

25:46

the next few weeks if you're going to get an abortion.

25:48

But even if they are okay and they're under the

25:50

limit and I say, yes, I can see you. Even

25:53

them, they are like, okay. Well,

25:55

I don't know if I even wanna have an abortion

25:57

yet. Some patients have told us, that

26:00

they feel so rushed in their choice, but

26:02

they have to come to the clinic to get their consultation

26:04

just in case because we also have the twenty

26:06

four hour waiting period I had a patient

26:09

yesterday who said, I wish like,

26:11

I could just be in peace while I'm making

26:13

this decision because right now every social media

26:15

feed everywhere this is

26:17

everywhere, and I just happened to be pregnant

26:19

during this

26:19

time. And she's someone that I'm gonna

26:21

able to see she's early enough, but it's it's

26:24

still so overwhelming.

26:26

For her to try to actually know what she

26:28

really wants to do aside from all

26:30

the crap around us. Just

26:33

what happens when a patient comes

26:35

to you and you have to tell them that

26:37

they're beyond six weeks? Once

26:39

I tell them that they're beyond six

26:42

weeks that they're past the point,

26:44

some patients just sit up and swear a lot,

26:46

and they're like, it's not you. I just

26:48

can't believe that this is even happening. And

26:51

there's just so much disbelief. Other

26:54

patients, it's complete fear

26:56

and you know, like, they are in a

26:58

situation where they are probably not gonna be able

27:00

to get out. This is completely changing their life.

27:03

And I had a patient who just

27:06

sat up and started crying the other day and said,

27:08

well, I mean, if I don't get an abortion,

27:10

my partner said they're gonna kill me, what

27:12

am I supposed to do? And

27:15

what am I supposed to tell that I I can't

27:18

offer you the appropriate medical care in this situation

27:20

if that's what you want. If you want to terminate

27:22

your pregnancy in this situation for your

27:24

safety. You don't have the ability

27:26

to do

27:27

that. So she matters so much

27:29

less than the pregnancy. What

27:30

did you say to her? I literally, like,

27:33

okay, I have resources.

27:36

Take a few breaths. Let's not

27:38

give up. Here's what we need to do.

27:40

And then I'm able at least currently, I'm able

27:42

to give her resources to get one legally

27:44

outside of the state. And so I literally

27:47

have a piece of paper Here's the funding organizations

27:49

I recommend calling. Here's the clinic I

27:51

recommend you get an appointment with. And for someone

27:54

who's just disclosed something like that, her brain

27:56

is in three other places and she's freaking

27:58

out. Yeah.

27:58

But I also I have to bring her back down to

28:01

earth a little bit in that moment. And be

28:03

like, okay. But what are we gonna do practically?

28:05

What are you gonna do? Here are the

28:07

steps. Don't go to Louisiana unless

28:10

you have extra time because it just

28:12

requires multiple visits. They don't have a lot

28:14

of clinics. Oklahoma, as

28:16

of now, I'm telling patients this week. It's illegal.

28:18

Don't go there. So everybody I'm

28:20

telling is to go to New Mexico, and

28:24

there are multiple clinics there, but I I give

28:26

them a name of one, but I'm like, but it's it

28:28

may be several weeks weight. I don't know they're

28:30

getting very busy, but they will do their best.

28:32

And I don't know like,

28:34

I'm not on the other side of it. So I

28:37

hear that as far as I know patients are,

28:40

like, some are really being helped. But

28:42

I am sort of stuck in my

28:44

clinic world of getting

28:46

all of the patients try to determine if they're

28:48

early, if they're, you know, too far?

28:51

I mean, it's like you're watching kind

28:53

of the doors closing in real

28:55

time and having to game it out like

28:57

some, I don't know, Army General or something.

29:00

Yep. We have patients who I had one

29:02

2 weeks ago. That day was really,

29:04

really hard to be a provider was

29:06

when she said, but this pregnancy

29:09

wasn't a choice. I was raped.

29:11

And I want it out now. Mhmm. And

29:14

I can't do it for her. And

29:16

I I can show her where to go legally.

29:18

How long I'm even able to do that is questionable.

29:21

Is is there aiding in a Benny gonna be a problem?

29:23

And what do I tell her? I told her, I

29:26

am a survivor. I know how you feel,

29:28

but I need you to take some deep breaths.

29:31

We need to get you some help here our resources.

29:33

Like, we have to get back to earth from

29:35

the trauma that you're in right now, and

29:37

that is awful. That,

29:40

like, she needs space to be taken care of

29:42

and told that she's more important than

29:44

that pregnancy, and that is not what

29:46

she's getting right now. It's really

29:48

I mean, it's absolutely I

29:49

mean, it's awful. And my job has become

29:52

awful. Were you a

29:54

survivor of rape? Yes.

29:58

Do you feel comfortable

30:00

talking to us about it, or would you rather not?

30:03

Yeah, actually, I'm okay with that.

30:05

You know, I I've actually traveled

30:08

down to Mexico to study medical Spanish at

30:10

one point during medical school, and

30:12

it was someone that I knew it was

30:14

basically I was just attacked. So it was a pretty

30:17

brutal experience. And so the

30:19

time, I was worried about, like, physical damage

30:21

down there. I did a full exam and

30:23

then I tested myself for pregnancy and I

30:25

consider it's I feel just really

30:28

lucky that I didn't get pregnant from

30:30

that encounter. Mhmm. I knew exactly what that

30:32

patient was talking about when she said how

30:34

that would feel something like from that person

30:36

inside your body -- Mhmm. -- is just

30:38

just an appalling thought. I

30:41

I feel that in the pitting of my stomach. But

30:43

throughout that process of being in the hospital,

30:45

being examined, I had good

30:47

doctors here and there, but the vast

30:49

majority were just sort of seemed uncomfortable

30:52

and sort of embarrassed to ask me the questions

30:54

and talk to me about it. And

30:57

I just wasn't I didn't feel like a whole person.

30:59

I felt like they were, like, well, let's get in your pelvis

31:01

and figure out if we need to treat

31:02

anything. We'll get out of there. Okay. Goodbye.

31:05

And I was like, that's not that's not really feeling

31:07

for me as a person like that. I am a whole person

31:09

and not just that area of my body and -- Yeah.

31:11

So that is the part

31:13

that I I try to get across

31:16

to my patients. And I I don't

31:18

talk about my my trauma

31:20

necessarily with the patients is very rare actually,

31:23

but it has definitely made an

31:25

impact on how careful I am. With

31:27

people's pelvises. I don't take for granted,

31:29

like, doing vaginal ultrasound. I do

31:31

that with permission. We talk it through they

31:33

have there's consent and you can stop

31:35

at any time. I don't know that I would have been

31:37

as careful with some of that practice and as careful

31:39

with my words. I would have liked think I could have learned

31:42

that without having to go through

31:43

it, but it definitely shaped.

31:45

My desire to give

31:47

really good safe care to someone

31:49

and make them feel

31:50

like I'm treating your body with respect.

31:53

And I'm still doing all of those things amidst

31:57

this like, that's already difficult enough

31:59

to do -- Yeah. -- in Texas even

32:01

before SB eight. And then it's way more

32:03

difficult during SBA because it's a layer

32:05

that I'm maintaining while also

32:08

helping patients with all of the emotional layering

32:10

on top. And we're

32:12

just looking ahead at maybe

32:15

the biggest train wreck I've ever seen in my lifetime

32:17

so

32:17

far. And it's just

32:19

gonna get worse. Howard Bauchner:

32:22

Just we've talked to

32:26

some folks on the anti abortion

32:28

side? Yeah. And

32:31

one thing that they were saying, a lot

32:33

of people were saying was you

32:35

know, now is the moment when

32:37

we really need to ramp up social services.

32:40

Diapers help with transportation that

32:43

a lot more women are gonna be varying

32:45

their pregnancies to term, and we need to kind

32:47

of be out there in force helping with that.

32:50

How do you see that argument you

32:52

know, if there was a robust social

32:54

safety net, is there any world

32:57

in which maybe this could actually work

32:58

that, you know, you wouldn't necessarily need

33:00

abortion, that it would be you

33:03

know, okay? No.

33:06

Actually, there's no world in which there aren't abortions.

33:08

And I actually wish I could get them to understand

33:11

that. Even if we

33:13

give all the best birth control in the

33:15

world and all of it works and no one

33:17

has a failure, even if we

33:19

give all of the best resources we have

33:22

Medicare for all. Even if we had

33:24

all that, there will still be pregnancies

33:26

where someone just doesn't want to continue

33:29

it, where someone has

33:31

a fetal anomaly and decides

33:34

that they would like to have an abortion as opposed

33:36

to continuing to to a delivery.

33:38

Because that feels better for them in their body

33:40

and their choice. The point that

33:43

I really want them to understand is that

33:45

having a delivery taking a pregnancy

33:47

all the way to term is at

33:49

least ten to twelve times more

33:52

dangerous than having an abortion.

33:55

So when you tell me that I have to do

33:57

that, that that's my job, that that's

33:59

one time pregnant, that's what's required of me

34:01

because there's a human being inside of me,

34:04

you are sentencing me to a

34:06

to a process that is ten to twelve times

34:08

more dangerous than the one I want. You

34:11

are possibly sentencing me to death.

34:13

Or a uterine rupture or

34:16

a rip during a c section, something's

34:19

cut a problem with the intestines. I mean,

34:22

pregnancy isn't a joke. It isn't

34:24

easy. For some people, it is. For

34:26

some people, it's incredibly hard. And some

34:28

people, it's incredibly dangerous, and

34:30

none of that None of that will

34:32

change if ReliWay is

34:34

overturned. None of that will change even

34:37

if everyone had all the resources they

34:39

need. Just

34:42

what do you wish that

34:44

they understood? I mean the

34:46

other side, I mean, if someone was sitting across

34:49

from you right now, right now

34:51

in your living room and

34:53

you were trying to get your point

34:55

across to them. What would you be saying to them?

35:00

I would say to them

35:02

it's okay if you personally

35:04

believe that an

35:06

abortion is wrong. You

35:08

do not have to have an abortion. No

35:10

one is asking you to. What

35:12

we are asking you is to not

35:14

decide for other people what medical

35:17

care is best for them. It

35:19

does not matter what you actually think about

35:21

it. It doesn't actually matter that you

35:23

turn to God for that information. That's

35:25

for you. That isn't for

35:27

others. One of the most basic

35:29

things we learn about in medicine, we have to take

35:32

patients seriously. I can't force

35:34

you to do something with your body. This

35:36

is forced birth, not just

35:38

outlawing abortions. It's pushing people

35:41

into dangerous places. I

35:43

mean, do you see it at some in some

35:45

way just just fundamentally? Like,

35:48

these two positions are just fundamentally incompatible?

35:51

It's like, It has to be one or the

35:53

other. It can't Like,

35:55

where is the

35:56

compromise? Is there a compromise anywhere

35:58

in this? No. I really

36:00

don't think so. I it's not their

36:03

body. Like, I really I think it's as basic as

36:05

that. And I think when we get tangled up in everything

36:07

else, then it's, you know, just more

36:09

confusing, but it really comes down to something really

36:11

basic.

36:12

I do not consider it acceptable to be

36:14

a quote unquote pro life

36:16

physician. I do not consider that acceptable.

36:19

Because if you believe that

36:21

you know better what I should do with

36:23

my pregnancy than I do. Then who's

36:25

to say you won't make that choice for me in other medical

36:28

settings? You won't withhold the blood

36:30

transfusion because you don't think I need it.

36:32

You won't withhold another medication because you

36:34

don't like where it was manufactured. Like,

36:36

where does that where does that line stop?

36:38

I don't think it's acceptable as a human

36:40

being really 2 be anti choice.

36:43

Because you are telling someone that you

36:45

think that you know better about

36:47

themselves than themselves. That's

36:51

insane. That just doesn't have

36:53

a place in our society, period.

37:00

But just what about you? I

37:02

mean, are you thinking that maybe you would need

37:04

to

37:05

leave the state? Is that

37:07

something that's been weighing on your mind?

37:10

Yeah. Yeah. Definitely. It's

37:14

you know, the way I look at it is

37:17

I feel like we're in a battle here. I

37:20

imagine that's kinda what it feels like now in New

37:22

Mexico with the wait times and just

37:24

how desperate people are. And

37:26

when we're so close to somewhere, that

37:29

needs help and I have

37:31

the procedural skills to safely

37:34

help, it's harder to sit

37:36

here. And not do that.

37:38

It feels hard for me to stay. Yeah.

37:41

But I am I am

37:43

also really tied to the patients I

37:45

see here. And I do I have some patients that

37:48

have seen me more than once that I know trust me.

37:50

And so it's also hard

37:52

to think about leaving. I

37:55

really hate this position that I've been put

37:57

in. It's it's it's confusing. Like,

37:59

I shouldn't really be in this position,

38:02

I don't think. What

38:04

does it feel like just to

38:07

have to make that choice?

38:10

It feels unbelievable,

38:12

actually. I didn't think that

38:14

we would in my lifetime. I thought that

38:17

I would just hear the stories from

38:20

the movements across the last century. And

38:22

I would just, like, learn from those. And

38:24

I I have. I feel like, okay. We've learned from these.

38:27

Like, we gotta be on top of our game. We gotta make

38:29

sure that we're boating but,

38:31

like, somehow,

38:34

it wasn't enough. And we

38:37

didn't we didn't stop us from happening.

38:40

And it

38:43

feels devastating. We'll

39:29

be right back.

39:37

Here's what else you need to know today. On

39:40

Tuesday, Elon Musk, the

39:42

billionaire CEO of Tesla, who

39:44

struck a deal last month to buy Twitter

39:46

said he would, quote, reverse the permanent

39:49

ban of former president Donald

39:51

Trump and let him back on the platform.

39:54

It was not correct 2

39:57

ban Trump. I think that was that was a mistake

40:01

because it and

40:03

alienated a large part of the country and

40:06

did not ultimately result in Donald Trump

40:08

not having a voice.

40:09

Mister Trump was banned from Twitter in January

40:12

of twenty twenty one after the

40:14

attack by his followers on the US

40:16

capital building. Musk's

40:19

comments were a preview of the

40:21

kinds of sweeping changes he might make

40:23

a Twitter, which he is expected

40:25

to take ownership of in the next six months.

40:28

And a new CDC

40:30

report shows that Gunda in twenty

40:32

twenty reached the highest number ever

40:35

recorded in the United States. More

40:37

than forty five thousand Americans

40:40

died that year and gun related in events.

40:43

Gun related homicides were up

40:45

by thirty five percent, the largest

40:47

one year increase in modern history.

40:51

Experts said that the elevated toll

40:53

could be related to stressors associated

40:55

with the pandemic, or to

40:58

a rise in gun ownership that happened

41:00

ahead of the presidential election. Today's

41:04

episode was produced by Lindsey Garrison,

41:06

Diana Wynn and Jessica Chung

41:09

with help from Rob Zipco. It

41:11

was edited by Page Cowot and Patricia

41:14

Wills, contains original

41:16

music by Dan Powell, Chelsea

41:18

Daniel, Maryann Lozano, and Elizabeth

41:20

2, and was engineered by Chris

41:23

Wood. Our theme music is by

41:25

Jim Brunberg and Ben Landsberg of

41:27

Wonderley. That's

41:33

it for The Daily. I'm Sabrina Taffarnisi.

41:37

See you tomorrow.