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at AI. meta.com slash. From

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The New York Times, I'm I'm This

0:33

is the Daily... is the

0:35

daily. Today. The pitch

0:37

to President Biden from

0:40

dozens of congressional Democrats

0:43

is from dozens

0:45

of congressional phone is they've

0:47

a single he call, they've

0:49

told him. He can revolutionize

0:51

women's rights his revive

0:53

his damaged legacy in the

0:55

process. The The question now.

0:58

is whether they're right, right. and even

1:00

if they are, whether Biden is

1:02

willing if

1:04

they are,

1:07

whether Biden

1:10

is willing

1:13

to do

1:16

it. It's

1:18

Monday,

1:22

Hello, Michael Barbaro. You are actually

1:24

joining us from inside Congress where there has

1:26

been lots of news over the past

1:28

few days and we are grateful for you

1:30

making time for us. for you making

1:32

happy to be here. I'm sitting on

1:34

the house side in a small recording

1:36

booth. small Yeah, it looks very

1:39

cozy. it looks This story. story begins

1:41

with a quest to do something

1:43

that, from today's perspective, a

1:45

lot of people might think is already

1:47

baked into American law, but it's

1:49

not. not. So tell us. the the

1:51

whole story of why it's actually not. not.

1:53

So this a is a story that

1:56

starts about a century ago and

1:58

it's a pretty remarkable story. about

2:00

a very simple idea. And that

2:02

is that men and women should

2:04

be equal under the law in

2:06

the United States and that discrimination

2:09

based on sex should be prohibited. That's

2:12

the whole thing. but it's

2:14

never actually been put into the

2:16

Constitution in such plain language. Right,

2:18

men and women must be treated

2:20

equal under the eyes of law. That's

2:22

actually not language in the US

2:25

Constitution. Correct. You have the 14th

2:27

Amendment, which has an equal

2:29

protection clause, but that doesn't mention

2:31

sex specifically. And this passed

2:33

in the 1860s, decades before women

2:35

were even guaranteed the right

2:37

to vote. This existed when married

2:39

women in many states couldn't

2:41

even own property under their own

2:43

names. So this was not

2:45

really about sex equality. Right, will

2:47

eventually to sex equality cases,

2:49

the 14th Amendment, but it doesn't,

2:51

as you say, specifically mention sex. Correct,

2:54

So In 1923,

2:56

a suffragist named Alice Paul

2:58

comes up with the idea that

3:00

the United States needs a

3:02

constitutional amendment specifically addressing women's equality.

3:05

And she actually. gets something

3:07

in front of lawmakers but it doesn't

3:09

really go anywhere or get any traction

3:11

for years. Welcome

3:16

to the kind of women power

3:19

that sustained our grandmothers for 72 years

3:21

in their struggle to get the

3:23

right to vote Until the late

3:25

1960s when the women's rights movement

3:27

is really blossoming. Welcome to the

3:29

new wave of feminism. Welcome to

3:31

each other. Welcome home. Thank

3:33

you. And suddenly, there

3:36

is excitement around this idea. And

3:40

what happens once the women's rights movement is

3:42

in blossom? I would like

3:44

to discuss with you briefly

3:46

the Equal Rights Amendment. So

3:48

in 1971, a Democratic lawmaker

3:50

in the House introduces a

3:52

bill called the Equal Rights

3:54

Amendment. The Equal Rights Amendment

3:57

gives women rights that they

3:59

do not have. And it passes

4:01

with overwhelming margins from both parties.

4:03

And then a year later it

4:06

passes the Senate where the final

4:08

vote was 84 to 8 in

4:10

favor of the Equal Rights Amendment.

4:13

Tonight after a 49 year struggle

4:15

a constitutional amendment appears on the

4:17

way proclaiming once and for all

4:20

that women have all the same

4:22

rights as that other sex. But

4:24

there's one more step that needs

4:27

to happen for an amendment. to

4:29

become part of the Constitution. And

4:31

that is, it needs three quarters

4:34

of the states to adopt it.

4:36

For today, Indiana became the 35th,

4:38

leaving the Women's Rights Declaration just

4:41

three states away from becoming the

4:43

27th Amendment to the Constitution. And

4:45

35 states pass it in just

4:48

five years, leaving it just three

4:50

states short of ratification. So it

4:52

looks like it's just sailing smoothly

4:55

through the process of becoming a

4:57

constitutional amendment. I

5:02

get fed up with the

5:04

women's liberationist running down motherhood

5:06

and saying that it's... Until

5:08

it runs up against vocal

5:11

opposition led by a conservative

5:13

woman named Phyllis Shlefley. The

5:15

Equal Rights Amendment will take

5:17

away from women some of

5:19

the most important rights that

5:22

they now possess. She's a

5:24

self-described housewife, an anti-feminist Republican,

5:26

who wages war against the

5:28

ERA. First

5:30

of all, it will have a

5:33

powerful dramatic adverse effect on the

5:35

rights of the draft age girl.

5:37

Her basic argument is that it

5:40

would actually take away rights from

5:42

women. That every 18-year-old girl will

5:44

be compelled to be given a

5:46

draft number and to be available

5:49

for call-up. By eroding traditional gender

5:51

roles. The second category of women

5:53

who will be hurt by the

5:55

Equal Rights Amendment are wide. With

5:58

a message that traditional... women's

6:00

roles are a privilege. The

6:02

laws laws of every one of

6:04

our states make it it the legal

6:06

obligation of the husband to

6:08

support his wife his wife. And she

6:11

organized a very organized a

6:13

very effective grassroots campaign where

6:15

women showed up in droves to

6:17

push this message on state

6:19

legislators who had to vote on

6:22

this. it And it It lost in

6:24

in Nevada, Nevada, North

6:26

Carolina, Virginia, and

6:28

now Florida. No other states are willing

6:30

to adopt it it. And the the reason

6:32

that matters is because in the

6:34

original piece of legislation that had passed

6:36

Congress, there there was a deadline for

6:38

when the states had to ratify in fact,

6:40

a few in fact go few states even

6:42

go back and try and rescind The

6:44

latest skirmish latest skirmish in the pitched

6:46

battle over ratification of the Equal Rights

6:49

Amendment is now history. one of the And

6:51

one of the casualties may very well

6:53

be final passage of the amendment itself.

6:55

So by by 1982, which is

6:57

the ultimate deadline. that

7:00

that Congress came up

7:02

with, they're This amendment has

7:04

not meant the legal

7:06

requirements to become the

7:08

28th become the 28th Amendment.

7:10

So basically, So basically,

7:12

you're saying by the early 1980s, this

7:15

seems to be quite dead. dead.

7:17

You might think so. so, but the

7:19

debate begins about whether or

7:21

not the time limit is something

7:23

that should be taken seriously

7:26

or whether that deadline was always

7:28

meaningless. meaningless. Hmm, explain that. that.

7:30

So constitutional amendments, first

7:32

of all, each one has taken

7:34

its own its own path to passing.

7:37

And they don't normally have ratification

7:39

deadlines. An example is the

7:41

27th the It was ratified in

7:43

1992. in That's two centuries after

7:46

Congress first passed it. it.

7:48

So supporters of of the

7:50

that the that the Constitution

7:52

itself never mentions deadlines for

7:54

an amendment. So they

7:56

just are are meaningless and do

7:59

not exist. exist. And on top

8:01

of that, there's a real debate

8:03

about this business of states trying

8:05

to rescind their ratification. States have

8:07

tried that in the past on

8:10

other amendments, on the 14th and

8:12

15th amendments, and their original ratifications

8:14

were still counted in the final

8:16

count that had those become part

8:19

of the Constitution. So there is

8:21

some real legitimate gray area here?

8:23

There is a lot of legal

8:25

gray area here, yes. So this

8:28

thing just kind of sits on

8:30

the shelf for decades until Donald

8:32

Trump is elected president and three

8:34

more Democratic Party-controlled state legislators, Nevada,

8:36

Illinois, and Virginia, who are motivated

8:39

by women who are outraged that

8:41

Trump is won and what this

8:43

will mean for women's rights, not

8:45

to mention the Me Too movement,

8:48

which was at its peak, adopt

8:50

the ERA. it suddenly hits the

8:52

magic number of 38, three quarters

8:54

of the states. It has still

8:57

been passed by Congress. So on

8:59

paper, according to supporters, it has

9:01

cleared all the bars. The ERA

9:03

has been ratified and should be

9:06

part of the Constitution. Hmm. If

9:08

you believe that that congressional deadline

9:10

is not real. Correct. So if

9:12

you think it has met all

9:15

the legal requirements and that the

9:17

deadline is not in the Constitution,

9:19

All that is left to do

9:21

at this point is basically paperwork.

9:24

The national archivist who's responsible for

9:26

the certification and publication of constitutional

9:28

amendments just needs to publish the

9:30

ERA as the 28th amendment and

9:33

then it is part of the

9:35

Constitution. A really interesting argument. But.

9:37

And this is a big but.

9:39

The Trump White House at the

9:42

time issues a legal opinion saying

9:44

that the archivist cannot do that.

9:46

And that's because of the deadline.

9:48

They say that Congress set that

9:51

1982 deadline and that because of

9:53

that, this is a... all

9:55

null and void,

9:57

anything that happened

10:00

after that is

10:02

dead. after that in 2022.

10:04

And in 2022, when when

10:06

Biden is president, the The

10:08

Biden. White House defends that

10:10

that position. The Trump the

10:12

Trump position the the deadline

10:15

matters that this this is not

10:17

suddenly a constitutional event.

10:19

Correct. event. Correct. So we are

10:21

in. in a legal gray area. In

10:24

In 2023, supporters of

10:26

the ERA to to federal court.

10:28

to get a ruling about the

10:30

deadline issue. And they lose. they lose.

10:32

A federal court says that the

10:34

deadline is real. is real. So it's

10:36

looking less less gray, the chances

10:38

of the Equal Rights the Equal becoming

10:40

part of the Constitution are looking

10:42

less likely. of the But

10:44

over the past few months. less likely.

10:47

But over the have decided to give it

10:49

a final try. What does

10:51

that decided to really. it a final

10:53

try. And row was overturned. Democrats

10:55

saw this as more urgent than

10:57

ever, be a that the ERA could

10:59

be a tool to protect abortion

11:02

rights at the federal level, that

11:04

it could anchor a right to

11:06

an abortion in the Constitution. and they have

11:08

a they have a democratic president

11:10

with the power to make this

11:12

happen. happen. They want to want to just

11:14

treat this like it's already the law

11:17

of the land. of the It's It's past it's

11:19

got the got of states quarters just order

11:21

the just to publish it. to

11:23

publish it. And sure. it'll invite

11:25

a legal challenge, challenge, but That's

11:27

the next next step. So literally say, all Joe

11:29

Joe Biden has to do is pick

11:31

up the phone, phone, have a two

11:33

minute phone conversation with the

11:35

archivist, order her to publish it. it,

11:38

and they'll deal with whatever comes

11:40

next after that. next after that. 45

11:42

including Chuck Schumer, the majority leader,

11:44

have written. leader, have letter

11:46

to Biden letter to pick up

11:48

the phone and call. the phone

11:50

Democrats, over 100 over 100, all saying...

11:52

Pick up the phone. Yes,

11:54

it will invite a court

11:56

challenge. But the point is that

11:59

this would Republican to have a have

12:01

a legal battle to take away equal

12:03

rights for women. for say, no,

12:05

we're fighting against this very simple

12:07

amendment that says women deserve equal

12:09

rights. that says them to start that

12:11

legal battle. dare them to start

12:14

that legal battle. And the

12:16

the lawmaker has has really

12:18

taken up this mantle is the

12:20

the junior senator from New

12:22

York, York who has

12:24

made it a priority

12:27

to a priority to persuade... Biden,

12:29

that he can and he must do

12:31

something on this, that he is the on

12:33

can make the Equal Rights Amendment part

12:35

of the Constitution. who

12:37

can make the Equal Rights

12:39

Amendment part

12:41

of the Constitution. We'll

12:44

be right back. We'll

12:46

be right back. is

12:48

supported by meta. This

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podcast is supported by Meta. AI Meta's

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open -source AI models are available to

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they're open open small businesses, students, and

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more can download and build with them

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at no cost. them Learn more about

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the benefits at ai .meta.com slash open.

13:04

open. I'm Andrew Austin, the founder and the founder and

13:06

editor of Dealbook. It's It's a daily

13:08

business and policy report from the

13:10

New York Times. the New Every year I

13:12

interview some of the world's most

13:14

influential leaders at the Dealbook Summit. It's

13:16

a live event in New York

13:18

City and I've had some a live event

13:20

unfiltered conversations, had which you can listen

13:22

to in our limited conversations. We've

13:24

got a new season out and

13:27

it is packed with more with moments,

13:29

figures like Jeff Bezos, Bill Clinton,

13:31

Jeff Serena Williams, and Sam Altman.

13:33

Listen to the Sam Altman. you get

13:35

your podcasts. Summit, wherever you get your

13:37

podcasts. Good Good morning. Good morning, Senator

13:40

Gilbran. How how are you? I'm well, how are how

13:42

are you? nice to see you're it's nice

13:44

to see you. I reached Kirsten Gilbran inside her

13:46

her office on Capitol Hill last week.

13:48

Sorry, and thank you for putting on

13:50

headphones. I know it is not the most

13:53

glamorous. way to way to start your day,

13:55

your day. but. I I don't

13:57

mind. I wonder if you wonder if you can - to

13:59

start. Remember when when

14:01

you first learned. equal equal rights

14:03

for women were not. in

14:05

the in the Constitution. Right. Well,

14:07

I've known well I've known for a

14:09

long time that the Equal Rights

14:11

Amendment is not part of the Constitution.

14:14

Recently, I I started looking

14:16

into the law law. looking into

14:18

actually what it takes to make

14:20

a constitutional amendment. And

14:22

I realized I quickly, it was about

14:25

was about 5 of the the that

14:27

sets out two things that need

14:29

to be accomplished to become. to

14:31

amendment. You need two -thirds of

14:33

the House and Senate to vote

14:35

in favor of it. That happened

14:38

in the 1970s. That happened in the of

14:40

the states to ratify. The last

14:42

state to ratify was Virginia to 2020.

14:45

in 2020. And so I realized really

14:47

quickly that the two things that are

14:49

required by the Constitution have been

14:51

met. have been met. supposed

14:53

to happen is when the

14:55

two standards are met

14:57

by Article 5, two-thirds House Senate. Pass

14:59

it. ratified by three quarters of

15:02

the the archivist who has a

15:04

ministerial job only. He or she

15:06

is she is not supposed to

15:08

analyze the law. They're not supposed

15:10

to have a deep think about

15:12

it. it, They're just supposed to sign

15:14

and publish when the two things

15:16

are done. because Trump was Trump

15:18

was president in 2020, his office

15:20

of legal counsel issued a memo

15:22

telling the he he couldn't sign and

15:24

publish. And that memo said, timelines

15:27

matter you took you took too long

15:29

to get this added to the

15:31

And they And they cited a decision

15:33

saying that all constitutional amendments have

15:35

to be done. to timely way,

15:37

timely way. Well. the Amendment took 203

15:39

years to become a constitutional

15:41

amendment. So amendment. So timeliness is not

15:43

a standard. a standard. And so I

15:46

looked further into what the

15:48

law says about timelines and whether

15:50

this timeline that Congress had put

15:52

in as a seven years in

15:54

the was actually

15:56

constitutionally operative. there was And

15:59

there was actually precedent that

16:01

talked about cases that had timelines

16:03

and deadlines and saying they were

16:05

not valid. And I I realized that

16:07

the strength of the arguments were

16:09

actually on our side. our So I've

16:12

been asking the White House to

16:14

either issue a new memo and if

16:16

they don't want to do that,

16:18

then direct the to

16:20

sign and publish on the the basis

16:22

that the two things that Article

16:25

5 have been completed. Got it.

16:27

it. And we're going to get to

16:29

all the ways in which you have

16:31

brought and tried to bring that request

16:33

to the Biden White House. White House. But I

16:35

think listeners will appreciate you explaining. you

16:38

in a kind of bigger a kind way. stepback

16:41

way why you and so many

16:43

other other Democrats want the

16:45

the putting aside the Now, putting aside

16:47

the legal arguments for just a

16:49

moment, what in your mind does the

16:51

Equal Rights Amendment achieve at this

16:54

point? this point the country's current

16:56

laws laws jurisprudence, especially around

16:58

the around the Equal Rights Clause.

17:01

Equal Rights Clause, does not gaps

17:03

does it fill if it it

17:05

becomes the 28th Amendment of the

17:07

of the if you noticed Well,

17:09

if you Dobs in the Dobbs decision...

17:11

row. Roe. Justice Alito

17:13

alluded that no right to

17:15

is no right to privacy in

17:17

the and and there's nothing protecting women

17:20

for these issues in the Constitution. Well,

17:22

that that really highlighted the need

17:24

for the Equal Rights Amendment to

17:26

be part of the Constitution because

17:29

rights amendments. across

17:31

the board in states, states like

17:33

Connecticut, states like New

17:35

Mexico, there's current litigations in

17:38

places like Pennsylvania. When

17:40

a state has an equal

17:42

rights amendment, in the case

17:44

of reproductive rights, they have

17:46

found that if a woman

17:48

is denied access to health

17:50

care for reproductive rights, including

17:52

abortion, abortion, it's fundamentally unequal. And

17:55

so in the cases of

17:57

Connecticut and New Mexico, New women

17:59

women on medicine... were given access to

18:01

abortion services because they were denied

18:03

it and they said that was

18:05

unequal under the law. So for

18:07

you, the Equal Rights Amendment, perhaps

18:09

not exclusively, but for mostly is

18:12

about creating in the Constitution a

18:14

federal protection for abortion rights, which

18:16

you think has already happened in

18:18

states whose constitutions have something similar

18:20

to the Equal Rights Amendment. Correct,

18:22

because if you have equality, let's

18:24

just look at Dobbs. Dobbs ruled

18:26

that women of reproductive years do

18:28

not have a right to privacy.

18:31

Red states have then implemented that

18:33

to say women of reproductive years

18:35

don't have the right to travel

18:37

across state lines to get access

18:39

to health care. They have decided

18:41

women of reproductive years don't have

18:43

a right to have private conversations

18:45

on their Facebook pages with their

18:48

mother about seeking abortion services, that

18:50

women don't have the right to

18:52

privacy to receive medicine in the

18:54

mail. Imagine how men in America

18:56

would feel if they were told

18:58

today that they do not have

19:00

the right to privacy to cross

19:02

state lines or to receive medicine

19:05

in the mail or to have

19:07

private conversations on social media with

19:09

their families. They would start a

19:11

revolution. And so I believe if

19:13

we had an equal rights amendment,

19:15

Dobbs would be vitiated. Dobbs would

19:17

no longer count because it is

19:19

applying a standard to women only

19:21

based on their gender that they

19:24

don't have a right to privacy

19:26

and therefore have no access to

19:28

the health care that they need.

19:30

That's a pretty big and important

19:32

claim and I wonder if it's

19:34

at all disputed, you'd know better

19:36

than I would, that explicitly prohibiting

19:38

gender-based discrimination in the Constitution, which

19:41

is what the Equal Rights Amendment

19:43

would do, would in your words,

19:45

vitiate, obviate, terrace under the Dobbs

19:47

decision entirely? I think it could.

19:49

It would be a strong legal

19:51

argument that you are discriminating against

19:53

women based on our gender and

19:55

in this instance denying a act.

19:58

us to life

20:00

-saving care. care. Okay,

20:02

once Senator you decide for

20:04

all these. all these both

20:07

kind of legal. and

20:09

practical. that this is

20:11

This is important to you That you you

20:13

make this case to President Biden. Biden.

20:16

What do you do? What have

20:18

you done so far to try to

20:20

make this case to to the president, to

20:22

his his I wonder if you can

20:24

kind of walk us through all of

20:26

that. us through all of that. I

20:28

I started to ask for meetings

20:30

with President Biden. Over Over

20:32

a year ago, I used

20:35

every opportunity that I had

20:37

with the with the first with the

20:39

First Lady or with Harris

20:41

Harris Vice with Vice President Harris's

20:43

husband or with with their chiefs

20:45

of staff with or with

20:47

senior in the the administration to

20:49

make the case that the ERA

20:51

is valid argued with I have

20:54

argued with his lawyer his lawyer

20:56

ad nauseum and he disagrees with me. me.

20:58

But I think I think my legal arguments

21:00

are supported by far more people

21:02

than support than support My argument supported by

21:04

the ABA. by the American Bar Association.

21:06

And my argument supported by a numbers

21:08

of attorneys general of from dozens of

21:10

dozens of the weight of the laws

21:12

on our side. side. I, should I I, that

21:14

you have not gotten this meeting? gotten I've not

21:16

gotten the meeting yet. I'm still asking

21:19

for the meeting. asking for the meeting. Mr. President

21:21

I would like to meet with you for five

21:23

minutes. I would like to make my best case to

21:25

you case to you. me for

21:27

asking this. Is it strange

21:29

for you to have

21:31

to to plead through through intermediaries?

21:33

perhaps in this moment in this moment we are

21:35

one of them to get a couple couple

21:37

of moments. one-on-one -one with

21:39

the president? You know, I don't know what

21:42

the issue is. I think the the campaign

21:44

got in the way a question became a question

21:46

to do we want to do this in

21:48

the middle of a campaign? Shouldn't we wait

21:50

till after the campaign? Maybe those were

21:52

concerns. We did polling. We We

21:54

have polling showing that the American people

21:56

support this. this. We really just tried

21:58

to make the case to all the... senior

22:00

advisors that not only is this

22:02

actually accurate legally, but that it

22:04

is the right thing to do.

22:07

So how do you understand Senator

22:09

Biden's seeming reluctance to engage this?

22:11

He's not taking the meeting with

22:13

you. He's not speaking out about

22:15

this. I don't know. I think

22:17

it's the team. I don't know.

22:20

I got to tell you. When

22:22

I I pitched it to him,

22:24

I pitched it to him with

22:26

my 30 seconds that I had

22:28

in a photo line. In a

22:30

photo line. Yes, when President Biden

22:33

came to New York for the

22:35

celebration of the Stonewall Inn as

22:37

a national monument, I made sure

22:39

I got to that photo line.

22:41

I said, Mr. President, I think

22:43

you have an opportunity to direct

22:46

the archivist to sign and publish

22:48

the ERA. You got it out.

22:50

I said, and if you do,

22:52

it will be everything. It will

22:54

guarantee women reproductive rights. It will

22:57

guarantee them equality under the law.

22:59

It will be the cornerstone of

23:01

your administration. And I said, I

23:03

said, you don't have a formal

23:05

role, but the archivist does, and

23:07

she needs courage. And I believe

23:10

if you tell her or direct

23:12

her or do a new OLC

23:14

memo, she will do it. And

23:16

he said, so do you want

23:18

me to make a big deal

23:20

about it? I said, yes, I

23:23

do. And that was our conversation.

23:25

The thing that may be holding

23:27

him and if not him those

23:29

around him up here is their

23:31

fear that this won't survive the

23:33

inevitable legal challenge that will come

23:36

based on the 1982 deadline that

23:38

they just think that this is

23:40

Futile and symbolic look no matter

23:42

what? approach you take on this

23:44

equal rights amendment. It will go

23:46

up to the Supreme Court. This

23:49

is the only route that is

23:51

possible. I think, in the near

23:53

future. And why wouldn't you do

23:55

it now as an opportunity to

23:57

stand up for what you believe?

24:00

You just You just mentioned the Supreme Court.

24:02

Court. doubt doubt know that one

24:04

one of the great. liberal lions

24:07

of the Supreme Supreme Ruth Bader

24:09

Bader Ginsburg, in 2020.

24:11

that she that she believed that

24:13

as much as the world as

24:15

the country needed the the ERA, that the

24:18

that the best way to do it, the right

24:20

way to do it, was to start. to start

24:22

over. She said, and this is her quote.

24:24

her quote, I I would like to see

24:26

a new beginning. rather than

24:28

an effort to just. just... take the

24:30

the current legislation missed the

24:32

1982 deadline in her mind

24:34

and make it law now.

24:36

so what do so. to a What

24:38

do you say to a towering

24:40

legal figure and theoretical ally like

24:43

that I don't think you can I don't think you can

24:45

do this. I think you have to go

24:47

back to the beginning. have to do this whole

24:49

thing all over again. thing all over again? So I

24:51

disagree with her analysis And

24:53

you have to understand

24:55

Ruth Bader Ginsburg Ginsburg

24:58

a great legal mind.

25:00

She was a unbelievable scholar and

25:02

justice that did great things

25:04

for our country. She knows did

25:06

great things for our country. It's

25:08

She knows nothing about politics. It's

25:10

not her job to understand

25:12

politics. over, If you start over,

25:14

you will never see reproductive freedom

25:16

or equality for women. women in

25:19

our lifetimes. because it's

25:21

become a political wedge issue. issue.

25:23

So there are there are many people

25:25

in the Senate today, the in the

25:27

House today, you that if you ask

25:29

them privately, do you believe women deserve

25:31

equality? They're going to say

25:33

yes, but their But their vote on

25:35

equality about be about their position on

25:37

reproductive rights. rights. So that's the

25:39

truth. And so so I respect Justice

25:42

Ginsburg for her legal acumen. I

25:44

do not respect her view on this issue because

25:46

I think she's wrong. she's wrong. Even

25:49

if you were to get President Biden

25:51

to do this. A big if. You know

25:53

that you you know that you face one

25:55

last meaningful obstacle, because just a couple

25:57

of days ago, days ago, the came out. came

25:59

out. probably in response to

26:01

your outspoken efforts here, and

26:03

said, I will not do

26:06

this. I will not make

26:08

the Equal Rights Amendment, the

26:10

28th Amendment, the Constitution, because

26:12

in her legal analysis, it's

26:14

not the right. Her legal

26:17

analysis, she's not a lawyer.

26:19

She knows nothing about the

26:21

law. And for her to

26:23

insert herself as a legal

26:25

analyst in this whole process

26:28

is unconstitutional. She is supposed

26:30

to publish the ERA because

26:32

the two standards of Article

26:34

V have been met. I

26:36

mean, your frustration is so

26:39

palpable to me. I've watched

26:41

you, I've covered you for

26:43

many years. And I now

26:45

have this vision of you,

26:47

like tiptoeing. across the White

26:50

House lawn at some ungodly

26:52

hour and knocking on the

26:54

front door. I mean... Well,

26:56

I mentioned it in the

26:58

Christmas party photo line, and

27:01

this is why I know

27:03

Jill Biden knows about it.

27:05

I said, Mr. President, I'm

27:07

still asking for five minutes

27:09

to tell you about the

27:12

Equal Rights Amendment, and Jill

27:14

said, we know all about

27:16

it. I said, great, I

27:18

just need five minutes, because

27:20

I really believe someone is

27:22

advising him differently, and... I

27:25

don't think they know all

27:27

the things I know, and

27:29

I would like to have

27:31

him, at least, as the

27:33

President of the United States,

27:36

make this decision fairly, with

27:38

all the information in front

27:40

of him, and let him,

27:42

as the President, make history.

27:44

Lawyers write briefs. Presidents make

27:47

history. We'll

27:58

be right back. This

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podcast is supported by Meta. Meta's

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28:38

is Nick Kristof. I'm an

28:40

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28:42

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go to nytimes.com/nytfund. Thank you. Here's

29:15

what else you need

29:17

to know today Even as

29:19

Republicans averted a government

29:21

shutdown over the weekend They

29:23

exposed a deep rift

29:25

between President Trump and hard

29:27

-line Republicans spending and debt. Trump

29:30

had triggered the crisis by

29:32

ordering House Republicans to raise

29:34

the federal debt ceiling, hoping

29:36

that doing so before he

29:38

was in office would avoid

29:40

a messy showdown over the

29:42

issue next year. Instead, nearly

29:44

40 House Republicans defied Trump,

29:47

saying that his plan would

29:49

generate too much debt. The

29:51

spending package that ultimately avoided a

29:53

shutdown, which passed both chambers of

29:55

Congress on Saturday morning. extends

29:58

current spending levels. until

30:00

mid -March and pushes the debate

30:02

over the debt ceiling into

30:04

next year, when year, will

30:06

control the White House and

30:09

both the of Congress. and both

30:11

chambers of Congress. Today's

30:13

episode was produced by

30:15

Carlos Prieto, Luke was

30:17

produced by Tennis Geter, and

30:19

Michael Simon Johnson. Michael Simon

30:22

-Johnson. by It was

30:24

edited by Patricia Willens

30:26

with help from Paige Cowat.

30:29

research. help Susan Lee,

30:31

original music Pat McCusker,

30:33

Dan Powell, and Mary Lozano,

30:36

and was and was engineered by...

30:38

Moxley. Our theme music is music

30:40

is by Jim and

30:42

Van Landferk of Wunderlie. That's

30:59

it for the Daily, Daily. I'm I'm

31:02

Michael Borrow. See you tomorrow. This

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podcast is supported by

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