0:01

From New York Times,

0:03

I'm Michael Bobaro. This

0:05

is the daily. During

0:07

his decades-long path to

0:10

becoming America's highest-ranking

0:13

military officer, General Charles

0:16

Q. Brown won the

0:18

crucial support of President

0:21

Trump. Until that was,

0:23

Brown publicly talked about

0:26

the one subject that

0:28

is now taboo. in

0:31

Trump's government.

0:34

Today, Pentagon

0:37

correspondent Helene

0:40

Cooper on

0:43

what got Brown

0:45

fired and why

0:47

it has so

0:50

thoroughly rocked the

0:53

military. It's

0:55

Thursday, February

0:58

27th. what is being

1:01

described as the Friday night massacre

1:03

inside the Pentagon that unfolded

1:05

a few days ago and

1:08

why even in the context

1:10

of President Trump firing so

1:12

many people across so many

1:15

federal agencies this felt different

1:17

and important and worth

1:19

singling out which is of course

1:22

what we're doing here in our

1:24

conversation with you today. Well on

1:26

Friday night President Trump

1:28

fired three very senior

1:30

Pentagon officials. One of those

1:33

people is the chairman of the

1:35

Joint Chiefs of Staff, General

1:37

Charles Q. Brown, known everywhere

1:39

C.Q. Brown, who is the

1:41

highest-ranking military official in the

1:43

country. This was known as

1:45

the Friday Night Massacre at

1:47

the Pentagon because it was

1:50

so stunning for the simple

1:52

reason that the American

1:54

military is supposed to be

1:56

apolitical. like the FBI, the

1:59

military. is supposed to stay

2:01

in place regardless of who

2:03

the president is. Some of

2:05

the greatest generals in history made

2:08

a point of the fact that they

2:10

didn't vote like George Marshall.

2:12

Even at one point, Ulysses

2:14

S. Grant, back when he was

2:16

a general fighting the Civil War,

2:19

didn't vote in 1864 for the

2:21

president. This is a big deal

2:23

in the military, and that's because

2:25

you want a military that is

2:27

not going to be the arm

2:29

of a political party. So

2:31

that's why what happened was so

2:34

surprising. So what explained that,

2:36

as you have just described it,

2:39

highly unusual decision, to

2:41

fire Brown? While the story of

2:43

how CQ Brown came to

2:46

be fired by President

2:48

Trump is really a

2:50

story of perceived disloyalty. It's

2:52

a story of a president

2:55

who does not understand that

2:57

the military is not supposed

2:59

to be a political extension

3:02

of himself, and it's a

3:04

story of only the second

3:06

black man to become chairman of

3:08

the Joint Chiefs of Staff, the

3:11

military's highest ranking officer, and

3:13

his efforts to live and

3:15

exist in... his own skin,

3:17

an effort that I think

3:19

just ran afoul of Trump's

3:22

own notions of loyalty

3:24

and disloyalty. Hmm. So

3:26

in some sense, this is a

3:28

story you're saying about loyalty

3:31

and race. Yeah. Well, tell us

3:33

that story of who CQ Brown

3:35

is in the kind of span

3:37

of his career and how he

3:39

in Trump's mind mishandles

3:42

the question of race in a

3:44

way that feels to Trump. somehow

3:46

disloyal. Well, CQ Brown as

3:49

a kid, he was called Chuck.

3:51

Chuck Brown, he's named after his

3:53

father and grandfather, and he grew up

3:55

in San Antonio, Texas, wanting

3:57

to be an architect. His

4:00

father, on the other hand,

4:02

had been in the Army

4:04

and really liked the idea

4:06

of military service for his

4:08

son, encouraged him to join

4:10

the ROTC when he got to

4:13

college. Brown joined the ROTC, but

4:15

he wasn't very into it at

4:18

first. He once told me until

4:20

he went up in his first

4:22

airplane. It was a T37

4:25

twin-engine, noisy airplane. that pilots

4:27

affectionately called Tweety Bird. And

4:30

he was hooked from that

4:32

moment on. He wanted to

4:34

be a pilot. Well, not

4:36

everyone's normal path. No, no. So

4:39

he went on to join the

4:41

Air Force and he became a

4:43

fighter pilot. He flew F-16s throughout

4:45

his career. He led a squadron

4:47

first and then continues to be

4:49

promoted. He ends up at CENTCOM,

4:52

Central Command, where he's like the

4:54

number two at the Air Force.

4:56

during the Iraq and Syria

4:58

fights where he gets a reputation

5:00

of being very calm in the

5:03

storm. One of his commanders at

5:05

the time who said that, you

5:07

know, whenever he walked out the

5:09

door there would be some crisis

5:11

or another and he'd say who's

5:13

in charge and if somebody said

5:15

CQ he would calm down because

5:17

he knew just how steady in a

5:19

storm CQ Brown was. So he's built

5:21

this reputation. He accumulates

5:24

130. combat flying hours. He's

5:26

all over the world for

5:28

the Air Force and he eventually

5:30

lands in Korea at Pacific Command

5:33

where he becomes the head of

5:35

the United States Air Force in

5:37

the Pacific and he is now

5:40

at this point a three-star Lieutenant

5:42

General which is you know one

5:45

below as high as you can

5:47

get. And he is recommended to

5:49

President Trump to be the next

5:52

Air Force Chief of Staff. by

5:54

Mark Esper who is the Defense

5:56

Secretary at the time. And

6:01

just explain what that means

6:03

and why it's a promotion. It's

6:06

a huge promotion because that means

6:08

that he would be not

6:10

only a four-star, but he

6:12

would be commanding the United

6:14

States Air Force, something no

6:16

black man or woman or

6:18

anyone other than a white

6:20

man had ever done. Hmm.

6:22

So thank you very much everybody.

6:25

This is very special. Charles Q.

6:27

I like that Q. Brown Jr.

6:30

So... In announcing the appointment, Trump

6:32

is enthusiastic. He notes that he's

6:34

a patriot. He notes that he's

6:36

going to be the first African-American

6:38

appointed to this post. And I'm

6:40

proud to have you in the Oval

6:42

Office. This was going to be in

6:44

a different location, and there's only one

6:46

Oval Office. I said, this is the

6:48

big leagues that we have to have

6:50

you and your family over to celebrate.

6:52

This is an incredible occasion. In fact

6:54

his swearing-in ceremony takes

6:57

place inside the White

6:59

House and is administered by

7:01

Trump. Wow. But you have

7:03

had an incredible career and

7:05

this is a capper and

7:08

I just want to congratulate

7:10

you and it's an honor

7:12

to have you in this

7:14

very fabled office and to

7:16

have you in the White

7:18

House and thank you very

7:20

much for being here and

7:22

congratulations. facilitates CQ Brown's rise

7:25

to pretty much the heights of

7:27

the US military. Donald

7:29

Trump is the man who set CQ

7:31

Brown up to eventually become

7:33

the chairman of the Joint

7:35

Chiefs of Staff. The way

7:37

the military works is that

7:40

the chairman of the Joint

7:42

Chiefs of Staff can only

7:44

be appointed from a specific

7:46

pool. of military officials. You

7:48

have to be either the

7:50

Army Chief of Staff, the Navy

7:52

Chief of Naval Operations, the Air

7:55

Force Chief of Staff, the Marine

7:57

Commandant, or you have to be

7:59

one. of the four-star combatant command.

8:01

You've got to be one of

8:04

those people. So it's a very

8:06

limited pool from which the president

8:08

chooses the next senior military

8:11

official, the next chairman of the

8:13

Joint Chiefs of Staff, and it

8:16

is Donald Trump who elevates CQ

8:18

Brown to the position from which

8:20

his successor Joe Biden can pick

8:22

him as the chairman of the Joint

8:24

Chiefs of Staff. Got it. But right

8:26

in the middle of this, Michael... comes

8:29

George Floyd. So Trump has

8:31

nominated CQ Brown, the Pacific

8:33

Air Force Commander, to be

8:35

the next Air Force chief,

8:37

and then George Floyd is

8:39

killed on Memorial Day in

8:41

2020, and that killing ignites

8:43

this huge movement for social

8:45

justice that takes over the

8:48

country. I remember well. Yeah.

8:50

And CQ Brown's son, whose

8:52

college age at the time,

8:54

comes up to him and

8:56

says, Dad, what is Pacific

8:58

Command going to do about this? Huh.

9:00

And what does he mean? What does

9:02

he mean by that? Brown said to me

9:04

he knew that was code for what

9:07

are you going to say about this?

9:09

What is my dad? This

9:11

prominent black military leader going

9:13

to do and say. Yeah. And so CQ

9:15

Brown made a video. as the Commander

9:18

of Pacific Air Forces, a

9:20

senior leader in our Air Force, and

9:22

an African-American. Many of you

9:24

may be wondering what I'm

9:26

thinking about, the current events

9:28

surrounding the tragic death of

9:31

George Floyd. It's a four-minute

9:33

and 49-second video. He's sitting

9:35

in his fatigues against a

9:37

black backdrop, and it's extremely

9:40

stark. And thinking about how full

9:42

I am with a motion, not just

9:44

for George Floyd. but the many

9:46

African-Americans that have suffered the same

9:49

fate as George Floyd. There's a tremor

9:51

in his voice. I'm thinking about my

9:53

sister and I being the only African-Americans

9:55

in our entire elementary school and

9:57

trying to fit in. And he just talks

9:59

about... being a black man. He

10:02

talks about living in the

10:04

skin that God gave him.

10:06

I'm thinking about then going

10:08

to a high school where

10:10

roughly half the students were

10:12

African-American and trying to fit

10:14

in. It's a complicated message

10:16

that he actually manages to

10:18

convey. He talks about the

10:20

pride he felt enjoying the

10:22

Air Force. He says my

10:24

country tis of the sweet

10:26

land of liberty. The equality

10:28

expressed in our declaration of

10:30

independence in the Constitution. that

10:32

I've sworn my adult life

10:34

to support and defend. But

10:36

it said a little bit

10:38

ironically, because he's also talking

10:40

about what so many black

10:42

men before him had gone

10:44

through. And thinking about a

10:46

history of racial issues and

10:48

my own experiences that didn't

10:50

always sing of liberty and

10:52

equality. He talks about being

10:54

in the Air Force and

10:56

being the only black man

10:58

in his squadron. I'm thinking

11:00

about wearing the same flight

11:02

suit. with the same wings

11:04

of my chest as my

11:06

peers, and they mean questioned

11:08

by another military member, are

11:10

you a pilot? I'm thinking

11:12

about the pressure I felt

11:14

of a form error-free, especially

11:16

for supervisors I perceive had

11:18

expected less for me as

11:20

an African-American. He talks about

11:22

being shunned in some ways

11:24

by some of his black

11:26

friends who don't understand why

11:28

he's hanging out with his

11:30

white fighter squadron at the

11:32

same time. That's what I'm

11:34

thinking about. I wonder what

11:36

you're thinking about. I want

11:38

to hear what you're thinking

11:40

about and how together we

11:42

can make a difference. And

11:44

I was really surprised at

11:46

the fact that he managed

11:48

to get all this stuff

11:50

across while at the same

11:52

time keeping it completely focused

11:54

on his own life. He's

11:56

not speaking for anybody else.

11:58

He's speaking for himself and

12:00

he talks about being very

12:02

aware of the weight of

12:04

what he is going to

12:06

have to carry. And what

12:08

is the reaction to this?

12:10

video within the military it

12:12

electrifies the Pentagon my phone

12:14

story bringing off the hook.

12:17

Everybody was talking about it.

12:19

Did you see the Siki

12:21

Brown video? Did you see

12:23

the Siki Brown video? Everybody

12:25

was passing it around at

12:27

the Pentagon, and there was

12:29

a little bit of concern,

12:31

sort of like trepidation about,

12:33

wow, how is Trump gonna

12:35

react? Well, what's the answer,

12:37

Helene? How does then President

12:39

Trump react to this? He

12:41

doesn't have a public reaction

12:43

in the moment. There's a

12:45

lot going on at the

12:47

time. rights the pandemic, there

12:49

are protests all over black

12:51

lives matters, protests going on,

12:53

and he's already fighting with

12:55

his military because at the

12:57

time, Trump wants to deploy

12:59

active duty American troops. onto

13:01

the streets against the protesters

13:03

and even asked the defense

13:05

secretary Mark Esper who says

13:07

no. He and Mark Millie,

13:09

the chairman of the Joint

13:11

Chiefs of Staff at the

13:13

time, argued ferociously against deploying

13:15

active-duty American troops in the

13:17

streets and Trump is very

13:19

angry at them. allied himself

13:21

with Millie and Esper who

13:23

Trump now hates. And Trump

13:25

will not forget it. We'll

13:27

be right back. You suggested

13:29

that CQ Brown, whether he

13:31

intended to or not, ends

13:33

up seeming an alliance with

13:35

Trump's enemies within the military.

13:37

But of course at this

13:39

moment in our chronology, Trump

13:41

is on his way to

13:43

an electoral loss to Joe

13:45

Biden, and so he's going

13:47

to leave the picture for

13:49

several years. So pick the

13:51

story up here for CQ

13:53

Brown. What happens? when Joe

13:55

Biden becomes president. So Joe

13:57

Biden becomes president and CQ

13:59

Brown is the Air Force

14:01

Chief of Staff. Everything begins

14:03

really well. CQ Brown as

14:05

the Air Force Chief of

14:07

Staff is very focused on

14:09

modernization. He's focused on great

14:11

power conflict with China. and

14:13

Russia, he's focused on Air

14:15

Force readiness, that's the military

14:17

speak, for being ready to

14:19

fight tonight, which is... Like

14:21

literally ready to fight a

14:23

war this evening. Yes, and

14:25

CQ Brown focuses on that

14:27

while he is in the

14:29

Air Force, and he also

14:32

makes another video. When I'm

14:34

flying, I put my helmet

14:36

on, my visor down, my

14:38

mask up. CQ Brown is

14:40

narrating it and is this

14:42

video that shows all these

14:44

fighter pilots taking off and

14:46

fighter jets. You don't know

14:48

who I am, whether I'm

14:50

African-American, Asian-American, Hispanic, white, male

14:52

or female. He says if

14:54

you're the enemy you can't

14:56

tell of black or woman

14:58

or white or Asian-American. You

15:00

just know I'm an American

15:02

airman kicking your butt. All

15:04

you know is I'm an

15:06

American airman about to kick

15:08

your butt. I'm journal CQ

15:10

Brown Jr. Come join us.

15:12

It looks straight out a

15:14

top gun. They play that

15:16

video at the NBA All-Star

15:18

Game and it boosts recruitment.

15:20

That's fascinating and it seems

15:22

worth noting, and I don't

15:24

know whether this has to

15:26

do with the fact that

15:28

Joe Biden is now the

15:30

president, that CQ Brown is

15:32

finding a way to talk

15:34

pretty openly and it sounds

15:36

like creatively about... diversity and

15:38

about ensuring that it is

15:40

celebrated within the military. Yes.

15:42

So not long after in

15:44

2023, it's time for a

15:46

new chairman of the Joint

15:48

Chiefs of Staff. Joe Biden

15:50

decides that he wants CQ

15:52

Brown for the job. At

15:54

the same time, Lloyd Austin,

15:56

who is also African-American, is

15:58

the Secretary of Defense. For

16:00

the first time in its

16:02

history, the American military and

16:04

Pentagon are being run by

16:06

two black men. And there's

16:08

instantly a fear inside the

16:10

Pentagon among people of color

16:12

that this is going to

16:14

inflame the magga world. No

16:16

more of we need X

16:18

number of this racial background

16:20

as fighter pilots. Like that's

16:22

CQ Brown's a great example.

16:24

He's the new chairman of

16:26

the Joint Chiefs and he

16:28

was obsessed with the color

16:30

and background of Air Force

16:32

pilots. Pete Hexeth, who at

16:34

the time is a Fox

16:36

Weekend anchor, he writes in

16:38

his book The War on

16:40

Warriors, that CQ Brown was

16:42

promoted because he's African American,

16:44

he says, I think that

16:47

may be unfair to him,

16:49

but since he's made race,

16:51

his biggest calling card, he'll

16:53

have to live with it,

16:55

or words to that effect.

16:57

There's also, there's a larger

16:59

critique that Hexeth and Trump

17:01

and a lot of the

17:03

right leaning Republicans in Congress

17:05

are lobbying against the military

17:07

at this time, and that's

17:09

that the Pentagon is too

17:11

woke. From the White House

17:13

down to the Chairman of

17:15

the Joint Chiefs, the Secretary

17:17

of Defense, they're peddling gender

17:19

nonsense, race nonsense that divides

17:21

troops against each other, environmental

17:23

stuff, electric tanks. You're hearing

17:25

that all the time. The

17:27

primary focus of our military

17:29

should be mission readiness and

17:31

lethality. Unfortunately, many of my

17:33

colleagues on the other side

17:35

of the aisle have continued

17:37

to push for diversity, equity,

17:39

and inclusion to the deficit

17:41

of our servicemen and women.

17:43

He, them, she, her, is

17:45

not going to make us

17:47

a stronger military. Our military

17:49

has been abused for radical

17:51

social experiments. On day one,

17:53

I will get critical race

17:55

theory and transgender insanity the

17:57

hell out of our US.

17:59

They're angry because Military schools

18:01

have included books that mention

18:03

critical race theory. They're very

18:05

angry that transgender troops are

18:07

being allowed to have medical

18:09

care in the military. They're

18:11

angry that Lloyd Austin, for

18:13

instance, has in their mind

18:15

circumvented the Supreme Court ruling

18:17

against Roe v. Wade by

18:19

agreeing that the military will...

18:21

pay the medical travel fees

18:23

for service members who need

18:25

to get abortions. All of

18:27

this stuff is wrapped up

18:29

in these culture wars that

18:31

the right wing of the

18:33

Republican Party is lobbying against

18:35

the Pentagon and right in

18:37

the middle of that is

18:39

the whole diversity thing. Right.

18:41

And so in their mind,

18:43

what could better encapsulate the

18:45

military going woke than having

18:47

the chairman of the Joint

18:49

Chiefs of Staff after George

18:51

Floyd's death? having recorded a

18:53

video talking about race. Yes.

18:55

In the next Commander Chief,

18:57

Fitz Donald Trump, I pray

18:59

it is, he's the clean

19:01

house. I mean, clean house

19:04

of these woke generals. So

19:06

Helene, once Donald Trump wins

19:08

the presidency back, and once

19:10

Pete Hexath, his nominee for

19:12

Secretary of Defense, is confirmed,

19:14

is the thinking, given everything

19:16

you have just laid out

19:18

here, that CQ Brown now

19:20

has a target. on his

19:22

back. Absolutely. Even before Trump

19:24

won, there was a lot

19:26

of questioning at the Pentagon

19:28

about whether if he won,

19:30

CQ Brown would be able

19:32

to stick around. And the

19:34

question was formed again and

19:36

again, would he resign? And

19:38

Sienkew Brown told his troops,

19:40

he told workers to join

19:42

staff, he told everybody under

19:44

him, he told reporters that

19:46

he would never resign. He

19:48

had already gotten to a

19:50

higher position in the military

19:52

than he ever thought he

19:54

could, that he has taken

19:56

an oath to the Constitution

19:58

and that he would not

20:00

walk away from it without

20:02

serving. his full turn. And

20:04

he kind of felt that

20:06

he might be able to

20:08

write it out. After Trump

20:10

was elected, Trump and CQ

20:12

Brown met at the Army

20:14

Navy football game in December.

20:16

and CQ Brown went up

20:18

to Trump's box. They talked

20:20

for about 15 minutes, and

20:22

I think some of his

20:24

staffers thought afterwards that it

20:26

had gone well. I heard

20:28

from a couple of joint

20:30

staffers that Trump had said,

20:32

I think you're doing a

20:34

good job, but that's hearing

20:36

it, you know, second or

20:38

third hand. We hear from

20:40

Trump people that by that

20:42

point Trump may have already

20:44

decided that he was getting

20:46

rid of CQ Brown. So

20:48

I think that brings us

20:50

up pretty much to the

20:52

present into this Friday night

20:54

massacre that ends with CQ

20:56

Brown being terminated as chairman

20:58

of the Joint Chiefs of

21:00

Staff. I'm curious what the

21:02

official explanation becomes for why

21:04

the president is getting rid

21:06

of him in this rule.

21:08

Michael, there is no official

21:10

explanation. Hexeth calls him up

21:12

and tells him, I'm sorry

21:14

you're being fired, President Trump,

21:16

post that on... truth social,

21:19

neither man says why in

21:21

their public explanation why they

21:23

are firing CQ Brown. They

21:25

thank him for his service

21:27

and move on to announcing

21:29

his replacement. But I talked

21:31

to a number of people

21:33

both in the Trump administration

21:35

and close to Trump outside

21:37

of the administration. And what

21:39

they tell me that Trump

21:41

and Hexeth arrived at was

21:43

this belief that in that

21:45

video, CQ Brown picked a

21:47

side. And the side he

21:49

picked was a side that

21:51

embraced diversity, equity, and inclusion.

21:53

And that in the minds

21:55

of Trump and Hexeth. Today

21:57

in 2025 is the wrong

21:59

side. I'm curious who President

22:01

Trump puts forward to replace

22:03

Brown and how in the

22:05

president's mind and in the

22:07

mind of the defense secretary

22:09

Pete Hexath, that person's on

22:11

the right side of all

22:13

this. If it turns out

22:15

CQ Brown is on the

22:17

wrong side. So Trump chooses

22:19

a retired Lieutenant General Dan

22:21

Kane, who goes by the

22:23

call sign of Raisin Kane,

22:25

which Trump loves, to replace

22:27

CQ Brown. Both men are

22:29

fighter pilots, but Dan Kane

22:31

has three stars and retired.

22:33

CQ Brown had four stars.

22:35

fell in love with Dan

22:37

Kane in Trump's own telling

22:39

in 2018 when he made

22:41

a spur of the moment

22:43

December trip to Iraq. And

22:45

one of the many places

22:47

that Trump told a version

22:49

of this story was at

22:51

the Conservative Political Action Conference

22:53

in 2024. I'm walking down

22:55

and I'm looking down and

22:57

I see these central casting

22:59

people. According to Trump, Dan

23:01

Kane looked straight out of

23:03

central casting. If I were

23:05

casting a movie on the

23:07

military, I would pick these

23:09

guys. There's nobody you could

23:11

hire in Hollywood that looks

23:13

like this. So I walked

23:15

down and this is where

23:17

I met General Raisin Kane.

23:19

And Trump says, and you

23:21

know, I keep saying Trump

23:23

says and attributing this to

23:25

Trump because Trump has told

23:27

the story many times and

23:29

the story changes each time.

23:31

General, what's your name? And

23:33

he gave me his name?

23:36

What's your name, sergeant? Yes,

23:38

sir, and I love you,

23:40

sir. I think you're a

23:42

great sir. I'll kill for

23:44

you, sir. According to Trump,

23:46

Dan Kane said, I love

23:48

you, I'll kill for you,

23:50

sir. Wow. Then he puts

23:52

on a make America great

23:54

again. He's not allowed to

23:56

do that, but they did

23:58

it. I remember I went

24:00

into the hang. against military

24:02

law to speed that partisan

24:04

and that pretty much cemented

24:06

it for Donald Trump by

24:08

all accounts. It should be

24:10

noted that General Kane has

24:12

told his aides that he

24:14

has never put on a

24:16

magga hat. Got it, so

24:18

he basically denies that this

24:20

happened. Yes. So this thing's

24:22

important. After firing CQ Brown

24:24

for being somebody who, to

24:26

the president, we understand, represents

24:28

a woke figure, and it

24:30

seems in excess telling, maybe

24:32

someone who was elevated more

24:34

for his race than merit.

24:36

There's no evidence of that.

24:38

appears to be the perception

24:40

from Hexeth. Trump and Hexeth

24:42

have replaced him with somebody

24:44

who has a lower rank

24:46

and less achievement within the

24:48

military, but whose chief virtue

24:50

seems to be in Trump's

24:52

telling, unquestioning explicit loyalty and

24:54

fondness for Trump. That would

24:56

be correct. And that, of

24:58

course, raises a lot of

25:00

questions. The first is whether

25:02

loyalty is now being prized

25:04

over merit. And to the

25:06

degree that that's the case,

25:08

we now have two of

25:10

the most powerful people in

25:12

the military chain of command,

25:14

Hegsef, who has no traditional

25:16

credentials to run the defense

25:18

department, but Trump has asked

25:20

him to do so. Now

25:22

we have Kane, who has

25:24

many of the credentials, but

25:26

not the credentials of the

25:28

last person to be chairman

25:30

of the joint chiefs of

25:32

staff. What they have in

25:34

common is a... very strong

25:36

in Trump's mind loyalty to

25:38

the president. What does that

25:40

start to tell us about

25:42

the state of our armed

25:44

forces and their relationship to

25:46

the president? It's such a

25:48

good question, Michael. It says

25:51

a lot about Donald Trump

25:53

and how Donald Trump considers

25:55

the military. again as an

25:57

extension of his own administration,

25:59

which is not supposed to

26:01

be. We could have a

26:03

whole session, the two of

26:05

us, on just the dangers

26:07

of a politicized military. and

26:09

that could take up hours

26:11

and hours of talking. But

26:13

that is what Donald Trump

26:15

threatened many times in his

26:17

actions during his first term,

26:19

and he was walked back

26:21

by the generals he had

26:23

in the military who fought

26:25

this. And now he is

26:27

beginning his second term in

26:29

the exact same place, except

26:31

he seems to be pushing

26:33

it even harder. But a

26:35

central question that this whole

26:37

episode raises is what kind

26:39

of a black leader is

26:41

allowed in the senior levels

26:43

of Trump's government? What can

26:45

be your relationship to race,

26:47

to George Floyd, to questions

26:49

of diversity if you want

26:51

to be somebody who succeeds

26:53

in Trump's administration? I

26:56

don't know the answer

26:58

to that, Michael. I

27:01

mean, what have we

27:03

learned from the experience

27:06

of CQ Brown? Well,

27:09

I can't speak to

27:11

Donald Trump's worldview, but

27:14

based on the conversations

27:16

that I've had, the

27:19

message received by black

27:21

men in the military

27:24

is that you cannot

27:26

succeed. unless you're willing

27:29

to never mention any

27:31

of the trials and

27:34

challenges that you may

27:37

have faced as a

27:39

black man. And don't

27:42

talk about anything that

27:44

the United States government

27:47

may have done or

27:49

not done to contribute

27:52

to that. Thank you

27:54

very much. We appreciate

27:57

it. Thanks Michael. We'll

28:00

be right back. Here's what

28:03

else you need to

28:05

another day. During a confirmation

28:07

hearing on Wednesday, three of

28:10

President Trump's choices to help

28:12

run the Justice Department clashed

28:15

with Democratic senators about whether

28:17

the White House can simply

28:20

ignore some court orders.

28:22

a possibility that many legal

28:24

scholars see as the start

28:27

of a constitutional crisis.

28:29

Under questioning, the lawyers, including

28:31

Aaron Reiter, Trump's choice to

28:34

run the Justice Department's Office

28:36

of Legal Policy, suggested that

28:39

Trump could in fact ignore

28:41

the court's rulings. There is

28:44

no hard and fast

28:46

rule about whether in some,

28:48

in every instance, a public

28:51

official is bound by

28:53

a court decision. There are

28:55

some instances in which he

28:58

or she may lawfully be

29:00

bound. The issue has taken

29:03

on growing urgency as Trump

29:05

attempts to expand his power

29:08

and federal courts repeatedly

29:10

that his actions are illegal.

29:14

Today's episode was produced by

29:17

Shannon Lynn and Stella Tan.

29:19

It was edited by Liz

29:21

O'Baylin, with help from Paige

29:23

Cowan. Contains original music by

29:25

Mary and Lozano, Dan Powell,

29:28

Pat McCusker, and Diane Wong,

29:30

and was engineered by Chris

29:32

Wood. Our theme music is

29:34

by Jim Runberg and Ben

29:36

Landsberg of Wonderly. That's

29:46

it for the daily. I'm

29:48

Michael Bobaro. See you tomorrow.