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1:07

White House correspondent

1:10

Peter Baker, walks

1:12

us through the

1:15

clash and its

1:18

consequences. March 3rd.

1:21

Peter, thank you

1:23

for making time

1:26

for us on a Sunday

1:28

afternoon, no less. We appreciate

1:31

it. Thanks for having

1:33

me. I'm curious, Peter, where

1:35

in the pantheon of

1:37

moments that you have witnessed

1:39

at the White House over

1:41

the past 30 years to

1:43

date you, does what happened

1:46

in the Oval Office on

1:48

Friday fit, would you say? Yeah,

1:50

Michael, I've been covering these meetings at

1:52

White House since 1996, and I've never

1:55

seen anything like this. Never. You had

1:57

the president of Ukraine vote a

1:59

mere Zilinsky show up for a

2:01

meeting with the President of the United

2:04

States, Donald Trump, in the middle of

2:06

a war with so much at stake.

2:08

And so, you know, everybody was looking

2:11

to this meeting to see how it

2:13

would come together. I mean, it was

2:15

extraordinary. It was excruciating. It was a

2:18

brutal dressing down of a foreign leader

2:20

in the Oval Office. And presidents just

2:22

don't do that. They get frustrated at

2:25

times, and sometimes they're appointed moments, but

2:27

nothing like this verbal assault that we've

2:29

seen, even on an adversary, much

2:31

less on an ally. And I think in

2:34

history, we're going to look back on

2:36

this as a unique singular moment. Right.

2:38

And not just for the spectacle of

2:40

it. but for its actual

2:42

consequentialness. Absolutely,

2:45

right. This is a rupture of

2:47

a relationship now between the United

2:50

States and Ukraine, 11 years after

2:52

Russia first invaded, three years after

2:55

its full-fledged invasion in 2022, and

2:57

America has been Ukraine's best friend,

2:59

biggest partner, most important patron. And

3:02

if this rupture, this blowup, this

3:04

meltdown in the Oval Office, means

3:07

that the relationship now is on

3:09

the rocks, it has great consequence

3:11

for Ukraine, aggression in the world.

3:14

for Europe and for the United

3:16

States I would say. Right and

3:18

for all those reasons I

3:21

suspect history will keep turning

3:23

over this encounter for a

3:25

very long time as will

3:27

we in this conversation in a

3:29

few moments but I think it's

3:31

worth setting up a bit what led

3:34

to this blow up and talk through

3:36

the kind of dynamics into

3:38

which both men entered the

3:40

oval office on Friday. Right. Well,

3:42

first of all, it's important to

3:44

know the history. President Trump has

3:46

never liked Ukraine in particular. He was

3:49

convinced way back in his first term

3:51

that Ukraine had been opposed to his

3:53

election in 2016. This is a Russian

3:55

talking point. This is a Russian intelligence

3:58

fable, but one that Trump bought. into.

4:00

And of course, Zalenski was the other

4:02

guy on the phone. He had the

4:04

quote, perfect phone call, not so perfect,

4:07

that led to his impeachment in which

4:09

he tried to bully Zalenski into launching

4:11

a fake investigation of Joe Biden. Right.

4:14

Two men have never had such awkward

4:16

history, perhaps, as world leaders. Very awkward

4:18

history and during the last four years

4:21

when Trump was out of office He

4:23

was never supportive of Ukraine in his

4:25

war against Russia He praised Vladimir Putin

4:27

for being a genius for sending troops

4:30

to pressure Ukraine into making concessions

4:32

and he opposed aid to Ukraine

4:34

basically blocked it by Republicans in

4:36

the House forced them to block

4:38

it for about six months and

4:40

sitting next to him was JD

4:42

Vance who was famously quoted saying

4:44

I don't care what happens in Ukraine. So

4:46

these are not supporters of Ukraine going

4:49

into this meeting. And then over the

4:51

last two weeks you see the relationship really

4:53

changed dramatically instead of Joe Biden

4:55

sending arms and standing with Ukraine

4:58

saying we will never never not

5:00

be with you. You have Donald

5:02

Trump coming in and calling Zelenski

5:04

a dictator. Saying it was Ukraine

5:06

falsely that started the war adopting Russian

5:09

talking points about whether Zalenski should have

5:11

to have elections Never mind that Vyram

5:13

Putin is the dictator that he started

5:16

the war and that he has fake

5:18

elections at home He was basically a

5:20

hundred eighty degrees changing American policy Toward

5:23

Russia and Ukraine making clear that in

5:25

this new Cold War that we've been

5:27

talking about now for so long America

5:30

was essentially switching sides right And for

5:32

Zalenski, this is existential for him, and

5:34

he faced this pressure from Trump to

5:37

sign a rare minerals deal handing over

5:39

a lot of Ukraine's natural resources to

5:41

the United States without any assurance that

5:44

the United States is going to give

5:46

them anything back. Trump said you owe

5:48

us basically for all the aid that

5:50

Biden gave you over the last three

5:53

years. So Zalenski, unhappily, grudgingly,

5:55

comes to Washington as almost

5:57

a supplicant to sign this

5:59

agreement. hoping that that will keep

6:02

Trump on Ukraine's side in any

6:04

future peace talks. Right, so

6:06

Zilenski, as you've clearly just

6:08

laid out here, has no affection for

6:11

Trump, but will agree to

6:13

come to Washington to sign

6:15

this minerals deal, mostly to

6:17

protect whatever existing frayed attenuated

6:20

relationship the US still has

6:22

with Ukraine as a supporter

6:24

of its defense. Yes, that's right.

6:26

Because he hopes that it will... keep

6:29

the United States on Ukraine's side. Give

6:31

it something at stake in the war,

6:33

in this case economic stakes, and he

6:35

knows how much that matters to Trump.

6:37

So, Zelenski shows up at the White

6:39

House on Friday morning, and Trump comes

6:42

out at the door to greet him

6:44

as he does with foreign leaders. And

6:46

they have a polite handshake, but

6:48

not a lot of warmth, I

6:50

would say. And Trump makes a

6:52

comment as Zelenski arrives that later,

6:54

I think becomes kind of telling.

6:56

He says, I see you came

6:58

dressed up. for the occasion. So

7:00

Lesky, of course, is wearing his

7:02

tactical dark sweater, one of the

7:04

versions of the combat type clothing

7:07

he's been wearing for the last

7:09

three years in solidarity with Ukrainian

7:11

soldiers. Right. And they go into

7:13

the Oval Office, they take their

7:15

seats, there's a number of top

7:17

officials there, J.D. Vance is there,

7:19

Secretary Rubio is there, and the

7:21

meeting gets off to a relatively

7:23

fine start. Well, thank you very

7:25

much, it's an honor to have.

7:28

President Zelenski of Ukraine and we've

7:30

been working very hard, very close.

7:33

So we've actually known each other

7:35

for a long time. We've been

7:37

dealing with each other for a

7:40

long time and very well. But

7:42

Zelenski's trying to make sure Trump

7:44

understands that Ukraine is the victim,

7:47

not the villain in this war.

7:49

Just can it can it can

7:52

it now? Yeah, right these shows

7:54

and pictures of Ukrainian men and

7:56

women who have been released from

7:59

Russian prisons How long may

8:01

say they are, how terribly,

8:03

you know, abused they had

8:05

been in Russian captivity, tries

8:07

to get Trump to see

8:09

that the Russians are the

8:11

bad guys here. I mean,

8:13

it's looking tragic. Yep, that's

8:16

tough stuff. Yeah. And the first

8:18

20 minutes, 25 minutes are... perfectly normal,

8:20

perfectly fine, but you begin to hear

8:22

a little bit of an edge. You

8:25

begin to hear a little bit of

8:27

the tension that's there. Does that

8:29

provide security guarantees, Mr. President? I don't

8:31

want to talk about security yet because I

8:33

want to get the deal done. You know,

8:36

you fall into the same trap like everybody

8:38

else. A million times you said over and over.

8:40

I want to get the deal done. Security is

8:42

so easy. That's about 2% of the

8:44

problem. I'm not worried about getting the deal

8:46

done. And they just don't

8:49

see the war in

8:51

the same way. Before

8:53

my presidency from the

8:56

2014, Putin broken, 25

8:58

times, he broke his. Oh,

9:00

signature. 25 times he broke his

9:02

fire. But he never broke to

9:05

me. Never broke to me. No,

9:07

no, you were the president. You

9:09

were the president during. In 2016,

9:11

you've been the president, Mr. President.

9:13

You've been the president, but he...

9:15

Delenski does not want Trump to

9:17

negotiate a ceasefire with Russia with

9:19

no conditions, and Ukraine gets nothing

9:21

out of it. Right. He doesn't

9:23

think Putin can be trusted. That's

9:25

why we will never accept just... She's

9:27

fire. It will not work without

9:29

security guarantees. He doesn't think that

9:32

a ceasefire would hold. So he

9:34

says, I need security guarantees. And

9:36

that's where he's there to ask

9:38

the United States for. And Trump

9:40

does not want to have anything

9:42

to do with it. I don't think

9:44

you're going to need much security. I

9:46

think once this deal gets done, it's

9:49

over. Rush is not going to want

9:51

to go back. But then in the midst

9:53

of this back and forth, suddenly you hear

9:55

a new voice. Hey, I would respond to

9:58

this. So look, it's the vice president. who

10:00

hasn't really been talking in the

10:02

meeting, and he pipes up and

10:04

he says, I want to interject

10:07

here. And he offers appointed defense

10:09

of Trump's approach to the conflict.

10:11

Trump is the one, he says,

10:14

who's going to bring peace. He's

10:16

going to be engaging in diplomacy.

10:18

That's what President Trump is doing.

10:20

Can I ask you? Sure. Yeah.

10:23

Really, it feels like he has

10:25

to respond here. During 2014 until

10:27

2022, you know, the situation is

10:30

the same, that people have been

10:32

dying on the contact line. Nobody

10:34

stopped here. And Zalenski. basically proceeds

10:36

to pick apart this idea that

10:39

diplomacy is necessarily going to work.

10:41

He points out there's a long

10:43

history here. The war didn't just

10:45

start three years ago, started in

10:48

2014, when Putin first sent forces

10:50

into Ukraine, seized Crimea, began seizing

10:52

parts of Eastern Ukraine. And he

10:54

points out that this war had

10:57

been going on ever since, including

10:59

during Trump's presidency. But after that,

11:01

he broken this ceasefire. He killed

11:03

our people, and he didn't exchange...

11:05

Prisons. We signed the exchange of

11:08

prisons, but he didn't do it.

11:10

And that seems to get under

11:12

Trump and Vance's skin. Right.

11:14

It feels worth noting that in

11:16

this moment, Zelenski decides to call

11:18

the vice president JD, not vice

11:20

president Vance. What kind of diplomacy?

11:22

JD you are speaking about. What

11:25

do you mean? Perhaps history will

11:27

not note this is an important

11:29

moment. I noted it. Yeah, absolutely.

11:31

And look, you know, on one

11:33

level, you can say he's trying

11:35

to be friendly with him. Sometimes

11:38

foreign leaders do refer to each

11:40

other by their first names, but

11:42

Vance takes offense and Vance then

11:44

jumps back in. Mr. President, with

11:46

respect, I think it's disrespectful for you

11:49

to come into the Oval Office to

11:51

try to litigate this in front of

11:53

the American media. And this is when

11:55

things go from bad to very bad.

11:57

You should be thanking the president. of

12:00

us and really putting Zelensky on

12:02

the defensive there. And Zelensky of

12:04

course has thanked America for three

12:07

years quite prolifically. But you know

12:09

what's actually I think striking about

12:11

that demand by advance. You should

12:13

be thanking us is he is

12:15

demanding that somebody thank two leaders who

12:18

haven't supported it. Ukraine Trump

12:20

and Vance don't support Ukraine and

12:22

yet he is saying you have to

12:24

thank us right and as Vance and

12:26

Zelensky really kind of going at it

12:28

are do you disagree that you've had

12:30

problems? Like bringing people into your military?

12:33

Vance is pushing Zelenski on problem to

12:35

the Ukrainian military is having with manpower

12:37

and so forth. And Zelenski is, yeah,

12:39

of course we have problems. You'll have

12:41

problems to those. Even you, but you

12:43

have nice ocean and don't feel now,

12:46

but you will feel it in the

12:48

future. Translate what he's saying there, because

12:50

it feels like a really important point

12:52

Zelenski is trying to make. His point

12:55

is that Russia poses a threat

12:57

to the United States, not just

12:59

Ukraine. A lot of times, Trump

13:01

talks about this. He says, this

13:03

is really a problem for Europe.

13:05

It's not for us. In fact,

13:07

Trump has said, we have this

13:09

big ocean between us. So what

13:11

do we care? What happens in

13:13

Ukraine? So what do we care

13:15

what happens in Ukraine? And Zelenski

13:17

is pushing back. So what do

13:19

we care what happens in Ukraine?

13:21

And Zelenski is pushing back on

13:23

the United States. feeling rewarded for

13:25

its aggression. Don't tell us what

13:27

we're going to feel. We're trying

13:29

to solve a problem. Don't tell

13:31

us what we're going to feel.

13:33

This is the moment that Trump now

13:35

jumps in. You're in no position

13:37

to dictate what we're going to feel.

13:40

We're going to feel very good.

13:42

And he begins to really kind

13:44

of berate Zelensky in this very

13:46

aggressive way. You're not in a

13:48

good position. You don't have the

13:50

cards right now. With us you start

13:52

having cars. Right now you're not playing

13:54

cars. You're playing cars. You're playing cars.

13:57

You're gambling with the lives of millions

13:59

of people. you're gambling with

14:01

World War 3. You're

14:03

gambling with World War 3.

14:05

In effect, what Trump is saying

14:07

is, Zelenski, all you need to

14:09

understand is that you have no

14:12

power right now. We have all

14:14

the power. Get on board, or

14:16

you're in real trouble. Yeah, exactly.

14:18

People that die, you're running low

14:20

on soldiers. It would be a

14:22

damn good thing. And then you

14:25

tell us. I don't want to

14:27

cease fire. I don't want to

14:29

cease fire. What he's saying is

14:31

you have to accept whatever deal

14:33

I make with Putin. You don't

14:35

have any power. You're not able

14:38

to influence things. And that's a

14:40

really extraordinary thing to say to

14:42

the leader of a country at

14:44

war. He's saying, you don't get to

14:47

choose here. I'm the one who's going

14:49

to choose here. Because let me tell

14:51

you don't have the cards. What

14:53

an extraordinary moment, right? Right? These

14:56

two leaders really going at

14:58

it over who and what

15:00

happens in this conflict in

15:02

the heart of Europe. We

15:04

should say at this moment all

15:06

three of these leaders, seasoned

15:08

leaders, could have chosen to

15:11

de-escalate what's becoming

15:13

an incredibly acrimonious,

15:15

almost shouting match, but

15:17

they don't. They all seem quite loaded

15:19

for bear. They do. This is where

15:21

clearly a lot of weeks, if not

15:23

months of tension have come to the

15:25

surface and they're just exploding in this

15:28

meeting. And they're saying what they have

15:30

been thinking or feeling for quite a

15:32

while. And it just escalates rather than

15:34

de-escalates. You finally get to the point

15:36

where Trump is relitigating the whole Russia

15:38

investigation. Let me tell you, Putin went

15:41

through a hell of a lot with

15:43

me. He went through a phony witch

15:45

hunt where they used him and Russia.

15:47

Russia Russia Russia, Russia, Russia, you

15:49

ever hear of that deal? That

15:51

was a phony that was a phony

15:53

hunter Biden Joe Biden scam

15:55

Hillary Clinton and I went

15:57

through this whole Russia hoax

15:59

He was accused of all that

16:01

stuff. He had nothing to do with

16:04

it. It came out of Hunter Biden's

16:06

bathroom. It came out of Hunter

16:08

Biden's bedroom. It was disgusting.

16:11

What an amazing thing to say,

16:13

right? The person he clearly feels

16:16

a bond with is Putin, not

16:18

with Volodomir Zelenski, who

16:20

runs a democratic country that

16:22

has been alive with the

16:25

United States and is under

16:27

fire. I've empowered you to be a

16:29

tough guy. Finally, Trump lays down

16:31

his cars and he says, but

16:34

you're either going to make a

16:36

deal or we're out. And if we're

16:38

out, you'll fight it out. I

16:40

don't think it's going to be pretty,

16:42

but you'll fight it out. Basically,

16:45

either you're with us, either you

16:47

go along with what I'm going

16:49

to do or we're out. We'll

16:51

abandon you. It's a very stark

16:54

threat. I think we've seen enough.

16:56

What do you think? This is

16:58

going to be great television. I

17:00

will say that. And then the

17:03

reporters are escorted out of the

17:05

ground. Peter, once the shock wore

17:07

off, for me at least, and as

17:09

I told you, I'm watching this as

17:12

well, I had this sense, and I

17:14

wonder if you did as well,

17:16

that people in the two

17:18

delegations, the Zelenski camp and

17:20

the Trump camp, They're going

17:22

to find a way to try to

17:24

smooth this over after the cameras leave

17:26

the room because of course they are

17:28

there to sign a deal. Exactly. This

17:31

deal is supposed to be signed.

17:33

They're supposed to use this deal

17:35

to put the relationship on a

17:37

new foundation going forward. And now... With

17:39

the cameras out of the room, are they

17:41

going to make apologies or at least smooth

17:43

it over? Will they still have the lunch?

17:45

Will they still sign the deal that was

17:47

the whole point of him coming in the

17:49

first place? Well they had the news conference

17:51

been set up in the East room waiting

17:53

for us any minute now. We don't know.

17:56

But then suddenly we get the answer.

17:58

Zelenski's car has just pulled up. to

18:01

the door

18:04

of

18:06

the

18:08

West

18:10

Wing

18:12

and

18:14

he's

18:16

leaving.

18:18

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Emirates. Fly better. Peter

19:30

picked the story up where you

19:32

just left it off. What ends

19:34

up happening behind the scenes based

19:36

on your reporting that ultimately ends

19:38

with this day becoming totally

19:40

un salvageable? Well, what we

19:42

end up learning later is the two

19:45

teams, the US team and the Ukrainian

19:47

team, head into separate rooms in the

19:49

West Wayne to collect themselves after this

19:51

bruising battle in the Oval Office. Zilinsky

19:53

still wants to salvage this thing. He

19:55

still wants to sign the deal. He

19:57

still wants to see if he can't.

20:00

smooth it over. But the U.S. side,

20:02

Trump and his team, are meeting in

20:04

another part of the White House, and

20:06

they are furious. And the answer to

20:08

them is no. It's over, tell them

20:10

to leave. And two U.S. officials then

20:12

go to the room where Zelensk

20:14

and his team are and explain

20:16

to him, you're out of here.

20:19

Basically, they're kicking Zelenski out of

20:21

the White House. Exactly, right. And

20:23

so the reporters were all rushing

20:25

out to the driveway, and there's

20:27

this black Chevy SUV, the suburban,

20:29

at the door of the West

20:32

Wing, and out comes Volodomir Zilinsky,

20:34

looking very grim-faced as he climbs

20:36

in. And then the suburban pulled

20:38

out of the White House driveway

20:40

and off the White House grounds,

20:43

and you realize just how much

20:45

has changed in those few minutes.

20:47

So lunches off, the press conference

20:49

is off. Trump's A's are busy

20:51

eating the lunch that had actually

20:53

been prepared for Zalinsky, there's roasted

20:55

chicken and gremlin, and Trump issues

20:57

a statement on his social media

21:00

platform. And it says, I have

21:02

determined that President Zalinsky is not

21:04

ready for peace if America is

21:06

involved. He disrespected the United States

21:08

of America in its cherished Oval Office.

21:10

He can come back when he is ready

21:12

for peace. Peter, the reactions to this

21:15

encounter are all over the place,

21:17

as you might expect. You've got

21:19

Republicans. Some of them now saying

21:21

it's time for Zalenski to resign

21:23

and they are repeating the charge

21:25

from Trump in advance that Zalenski

21:27

wasn't sufficiently respectful and that Ukraine

21:29

should send the United States a

21:31

leader who can show the president

21:34

of the United States more respect.

21:36

Then you've got congressional Democrats who

21:38

are aghast that the president would berate the

21:40

leader of a country that is an

21:43

American ally and furious that we seem

21:45

to be giving a boost to Russia. by humiliating

21:47

the leader of Ukraine.

21:50

And so I'm curious

21:52

what you're making of

21:54

those two drastically different

21:57

responses to this same

21:59

encounter. when Senator Lindsey

22:01

Graham came out. Would I think

22:03

complete utter disaster? Essentially sent

22:06

out by the White House to say not

22:08

only that it was Zelenski's fault.

22:10

I talked to Zelenski this morning.

22:12

Don't take the bait. President

22:14

Trump was in a very good

22:17

mood last night. Somebody asked me,

22:19

am I embarrassed about Trump? I

22:21

have never been more proud of

22:23

the president. And that he's proud

22:25

of Trump for standing up for

22:27

America, but that if Zalenski

22:29

wouldn't change, he should even resign. What

22:32

I saw in the Oval Office was

22:34

disrespectful, and I don't know if

22:36

we can ever do business with

22:38

Zalenski again. And what a remarkable

22:40

180 degrees for the Graham wing

22:43

of the Republican Party, what used

22:45

to be the Reagan wing of

22:47

the Republican Party. Graham was one

22:50

of the most hawkish, pro-Ukraine, anti-Russia

22:52

voices on the scene. And now

22:54

he has fallen in the line

22:56

behind Trump. But the Democrats, the

22:59

only person who had been disrespected

23:01

in that meeting, was Zelenski. So

23:03

all Zelenski asked yesterday was, how

23:05

do you know that diplomacy will

23:08

work? And because he had

23:10

the audacity to ask

23:12

that simple question, he

23:14

was ushered out of the White

23:16

House, and apparently the United

23:19

States is going to do

23:21

Putin's bidding and hand

23:23

him. And the Democrats are

23:26

the ones who are

23:28

left to defend Ukraine and

23:30

call for a more

23:32

skeptical view of Russia and

23:35

to cast Russia as

23:37

the enemy. against an

23:39

authoritarian dictator, Putin, who

23:42

invaded his country. And

23:44

our job is to defend the

23:46

250-year tradition that we have of

23:48

being the democratic leader

23:50

of the world, not turn our backs

23:53

on a struggling country

23:55

that is trying to do the

23:57

right thing. Right, so that's the

23:59

domestic... political response. Peter,

24:02

but the responses that most

24:04

intrigued me were from people

24:06

who said basically, wasn't

24:08

this a moment of

24:10

unvarnished truth-telling from

24:13

President Trump? Ukraine does

24:15

not have a good hand. It is

24:18

deeply reliant on American

24:20

military aid. It's struggling

24:22

to recruit soldiers. It

24:24

cannot win a war of

24:26

attrition against Russia. and it's

24:29

not really a priority for

24:31

the Trump administration. So in

24:33

a way, Trump was being

24:35

very clear and very direct

24:37

about all of that in this

24:39

confrontation. Yeah, I mean, look, it

24:41

is certainly the case that a

24:44

lot of people believe the United

24:46

States needs to focus his priorities

24:49

either at home. or perhaps against

24:51

China, because that's the bigger threat,

24:53

and therefore we have to recalibrate

24:55

our relationship with Europe, our commitments

24:57

in Europe, our hostility toward Russia.

24:59

And the strategic thought that you

25:01

hear from some people behind what

25:04

happened on Friday is it's time

25:06

for us to cut bait and

25:08

be friendlier with Russia because we

25:10

need them against China. I don't

25:12

know how much that's part of

25:14

Trump's own thinking, but certainly some

25:16

people around him give voice to

25:18

that analysis. Even so, of course,

25:20

to see the very personal and

25:23

visceral way that Trump was willing

25:25

to cut loose an ally in

25:27

furtherance of this strategy was pretty

25:29

striking, even if that's what you

25:31

wanted to do, doing it in

25:33

this way, I think, was pretty

25:35

shocking for a lot of people.

25:37

Right. Which is a slightly different

25:40

question, and one that is important,

25:42

which is, was this done poorly

25:45

and politely, shockingly so, to some...

25:47

But I think it feels like

25:49

Trump's goal here is

25:51

to focus, like you just

25:53

said, on Russia and China,

25:55

and that in the end, Ukraine

25:58

stands in the... of that.

26:00

Trump wants to be sitting down

26:02

across from Putin or Xi Jinping.

26:04

He does not want to have

26:07

to be worrying about a war

26:09

in Ukraine. No question that Trump

26:11

respects strength and power and he sees

26:13

the world as a place where big

26:15

men and big powers like the United

26:17

States and Putin's Russia divide up their

26:20

spheres of influence very much like a

26:22

19th century or you know mid 20th

26:24

century view of things while the democracies

26:26

will simply have to eat it if

26:29

they have to and there was what

26:31

matters more is who is powerful not

26:33

who has the same kind of governmental

26:35

system right and that leaves the question

26:37

then does Ukraine become in effect, roadkill

26:40

on the way to this

26:42

real politic goal and what

26:45

happens to the US relationship

26:47

with other democracies in Asia

26:49

and Europe? And do we

26:51

embolden authoritarian governments like Putin

26:53

by rewarding them for their

26:56

aggression? Well, a related question

26:58

to this, Peter, is Europe going

27:00

to pick up the slack if the

27:02

US, if Trump is going to walk

27:04

away from this to focus on...

27:06

Russia and China and to use

27:08

your words potentially leave Ukraine as

27:11

roadkill in the pursuit of that goal, is

27:13

Europe going to step in and protect

27:16

Ukraine? And it was striking how much

27:18

in the hours after Zalenski was kicked

27:20

out of the White House, European

27:23

leaders lionized him and posed the

27:25

question of what their role needed

27:27

to be. if the US walks away.

27:29

I mean, the Prime Minister of

27:31

France wrote, by refusing to bend

27:34

in Washington, Volodomier Zalenski, was the

27:36

honor of Europe. But then she

27:39

goes on to write, now it

27:41

is upon us Europeans to decide

27:43

what we want to be and whether

27:45

we want to be. And I took

27:47

that to mean her saying, Europe,

27:50

are we going to step up and

27:52

solve the problems for Ukraine

27:54

that the US... has until now but seems

27:56

to be walking away from. Yeah, absolutely. So

27:59

as soon as... Zelenski leaves Washington.

28:01

He heads to London where he meets

28:03

with European leaders, including Kirstarmer, the British

28:05

Prime Minister. And this is already planned

28:08

before the blow up in the Oval

28:10

Office, but it's such a remarkable amount

28:12

of timing because he is greeted with

28:15

open arms, right? The Europeans have rallied

28:17

to his side in this one after

28:19

the other, across the continent, they said,

28:22

we stand with Ukraine, we stand with

28:24

Zelenski. They say the things that you

28:26

just quoted that French Prime Minister is

28:29

saying. And Starmer promises more funding, a

28:31

couple more billion dollars worth of weapons

28:33

for advanced air defense missiles, and talks

28:36

about a peacekeeping force that the Europeans

28:38

can put together, even without the Americans,

28:40

once there is a peace deal, if

28:42

there's a peace deal, to try to

28:45

enforce it. But it's a test. It's

28:47

a real test because... Time and time

28:49

again, Europeans have said, yeah, we're going

28:52

to step up and take more of

28:54

the burden from the United States without

28:56

actually following through. And they have risen

28:59

to the occasion with Ukraine over these

29:01

last three years. They've actually donated more

29:03

money for Ukraine's defense than the United

29:05

States has. You may have heard Trump

29:07

say the opposite. He's wrong about that.

29:09

But it's still a question whether they

29:11

can do everything that Ukraine would need

29:14

and would lose without American support. And

29:16

for Europe, it really is a moment

29:18

of a moment of truth. Right, and

29:20

it seems worth noting that UK's

29:22

Prime Minister, even as he announced

29:24

more money for Ukraine, said, we've

29:26

got to be honest, we still

29:28

need a backstop from the US.

29:30

There's nothing approaching a true guarantee

29:33

of Ukraine's safety unless the US

29:35

is involved. That's right. I mean,

29:37

you know, they don't expect US to

29:39

put troops on the ground, but

29:41

what they would like would be

29:43

air support or logistical support or

29:45

Intel support, and mainly just... political

29:48

and geopolitical support. The idea that the United

29:50

States is behind them on this and that

29:52

Russia ought not to try anything because it

29:54

would not just be aggravating Europe, but aggravating

29:56

the United States and taking a real chance

29:58

there. And it's not clear that Trump... wants

30:00

to do that. He said, I don't

30:02

really care too much about what the

30:04

security situation is after I make peace.

30:07

He trusts Vladimir Putin to keep the

30:09

deal. Doesn't believe that there really needs

30:11

to be any security guarantee because he

30:13

thinks Putin can be trusted. Well,

30:15

nobody in Ukraine thinks that, and

30:18

very few people in Europe think that.

30:20

Right. Peter, my final question for you

30:22

is about Zolenski. What based on

30:24

your reporting you think he is going

30:26

to do now? He's been issued this

30:29

offer via President Trump to return to

30:31

the White House, but only as a

30:33

man of peace. And from everything you're

30:36

saying here, what that really means

30:38

is that the president wants him

30:40

to return as a person willing to

30:42

capitulate and recognize that the

30:44

US doesn't really care as much

30:46

as it once did about protecting

30:49

Ukraine and that he has to live

30:51

and die by... Trump's hope that

30:53

Putin would keep a deal that

30:55

Trump makes. And that means

30:58

giving up a lot. And so

31:00

I'm curious, do you think

31:02

Zelenski will return to the White

31:04

House on the terms that Trump

31:07

wants? Or does he not

31:09

return? And does he instead focus

31:11

on Europe as a replacement

31:14

and savior for Ukraine,

31:16

as potentially insufficient

31:18

as that might be? Yeah, I think that's a

31:20

great question. Really, one of the essential questions

31:23

out of all this. Look, in the immediate

31:25

aftermath... of this meltdown in the Oval Office.

31:27

He tried to smooth it over first with

31:29

social media posts and later with an interview

31:31

on Fox News and another comment saying, you

31:33

know, look, thank you, America. Thank you to

31:36

the president. And it was him, I think,

31:38

to smooth it over in his own way.

31:40

But he is a man of pride too.

31:42

He is a man struggling to save his

31:44

country from an aggressor, and there is only

31:46

so far he was willing to go. He

31:49

said on Fox News. He didn't think he

31:51

had anything to apologize to apologize for

31:53

it. He was sorry it happened, but

31:55

he didn't think he had done anything

31:57

wrong. And you're right. Trump, if they

31:59

put this... back together and it's possible

32:01

that they do. Trump will want

32:03

him to come back in a

32:05

supplicant form and Vladimir Zilinsky is

32:07

a lot of things but he

32:09

doesn't really have the flattery gene

32:11

that some of these other foreign

32:13

leaders use to suck up to

32:15

Trump. It's just not his nature

32:17

and we'll see whether or not

32:19

He can do that, whether he

32:21

should do that, whether that would

32:23

be enough, even if he did.

32:25

This is the new order right

32:27

now, and the new order is,

32:29

you know, if you are not deferential

32:32

to Trump, he will punish

32:34

you. So for Zolenski, the choice

32:36

here basically is how far

32:38

is he willing to defer,

32:40

how far is he willing

32:43

to flat, or how far

32:45

is he willing to subordinate

32:47

himself on some level to

32:49

Trump? And if he did

32:51

do that, would it

32:54

even work? Would

32:56

it even get

32:58

him what he

33:00

really thinks he

33:02

needs? Well, Peter,

33:05

thank you very

33:07

much. We appreciate

33:10

it. Thanks for

33:12

having me. Great

33:15

to talk with you.

33:21

On Sunday night, a spokesman for

33:23

Russian President Vladimir Putin

33:25

said that the Trump

33:27

administration's new policies towards

33:30

countries like Ukraine, encapsulated

33:32

by the Oval Office

33:34

confrontation between Trump and

33:36

Zelenski, had brought the

33:38

United States much closer

33:41

to Russia's own approach.

33:43

The spokesman said, quote,

33:45

the new administration is

33:47

rapidly changing all foreign

33:49

policy configurations. This he

33:52

added largely

33:55

aligns with our

33:57

vision. We'll

34:01

be right back. This podcast

34:04

is supported by Signify

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35:20

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35:22

Better. On Sunday Israel

35:24

disrupted its existing and

35:26

agreed-upon framework for ending

35:28

its war with Hamas

35:30

by saying it would

35:33

immediately end the flow

35:35

of all goods and

35:37

humanitarian assistance into Gaza.

35:39

The decision is an

35:41

attempt by Israel to temporarily

35:43

extend its ceasefire deal with

35:46

Hamas without advancing to the

35:48

next more delicate stage of

35:51

negotiations. That stage would have

35:53

required Israel to withdraw troops

35:56

from Gaza and to commit

35:58

to a permanent ceasefire. in return

36:00

for the release of

36:02

the remaining Israeli hostages

36:04

inside Gaza. Hamas immediately

36:06

denounced Israel's decision. But

36:09

it was clear that

36:11

the Trump administration supports

36:13

Israel's new plan, and

36:15

over the weekend, U.S.

36:17

Secretary of State Marco

36:19

Rubio invoked emergency powers

36:21

to bypass Congress and

36:24

send $4 billion in

36:26

weapons to Israel. Today's

36:34

episode was produced by

36:36

Will Reed and Muge

36:38

City. It was edited

36:41

by Liz O'Bailin, contains

36:44

original music by

36:46

Dan Powell, and was

36:49

engineered by Alyssa Moxley.

36:52

Our theme music

36:54

is by Jim

36:56

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36:58

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37:00

That's it for the Daily.

37:02

I'm Michael Obaro. See you

37:05

tomorrow. This podcast is supported

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by Signify Business Cash by

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Wells Fargo. As a business owner,

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As a business owner, you wear a

37:17

lot of hats. One minute you're

37:19

ordering today's inventory, and the next

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you're planning tomorrow's expansion. It's

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