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stories.

0:28

From New York Times, I'm Michael Obama.

0:31

This is the day

0:41

Last week, when a jury sided

0:43

with Johnny Depp over Amber

0:45

Heard, it validated a

0:47

legal strategy in which the

0:49

accused turned the tables

0:52

on their accusers. Today,

0:57

my colleague Julia Jacobs

0:59

on how that strategy could

1:01

fundamentally change the dynamics

1:04

of the Me Too era. It's

1:13

Monday, June sixth.

1:21

Julia, since the verdict in the trial of

1:23

Johnny Depp and Amber Heard came down last

1:25

week, there has been an impassioned debate

1:28

about what exactly it means. And we

1:30

called several of our colleagues in the newsroom after

1:32

the verdict came out and asked them

1:35

what does it mean? And you

1:38

had a very clear eyed answer. And so that's

1:40

what we wanna discuss with

1:41

you. What you think this case and

1:43

its outcome means. Well,

1:46

Michael, it's important to note that this

1:48

is a case with a unique set of facts

1:50

and a very complicated set of facts.

1:53

But what I've been told by legal experts

1:55

in the wake of the verdict is that this is

1:57

an important moment for a legal strategy

2:00

that has emerged since the birth of the

2:02

movement. Mhmm. Since women

2:05

started coming forward and accusing men

2:07

of abuse and

2:09

harassment, The accused

2:11

have adopted a strategy of suing

2:13

their alleged victims for defaming them

2:15

--

2:16

Mhmm. --

2:16

essentially accusing them of lying.

2:19

And what do you think is the

2:21

goal of that strategy? For

2:24

people who've been accused of wrongdoing,

2:26

the goal is to get

2:29

a form of justice, a sense of redemption

2:31

for themselves. It's about clearing their name

2:34

and trying to establish what the truth

2:36

was of this relationship or this incident

2:39

in a public court of law. And

2:41

so these accused perpetrators

2:44

are trying to flip the script in

2:46

a way and say that they are

2:48

the victims of defamation.

2:50

Okay. And this is the kind

2:53

of loss A defamation lawsuit

2:56

that was filed by Johnny Depp against

2:59

his ex wife, Amber Herr. Just

3:01

remind us about those circumstances.

3:04

Howard Bauchner: Right. So, Deb sued

3:06

his ex wife, Amber Heard, for

3:08

defamation, and This

3:10

was over an op ed that the

3:12

Washington Post published in twenty eighteen.

3:14

This was not long after the fall

3:17

of Harvey Weinstein. Mhmm. And

3:19

the op Fed basically says

3:21

that her life was harmed after she went

3:23

public with domestic abuse allegations.

3:26

And to be clear, she does not

3:28

mention Johnny Depp's name once.

3:30

But she does write that two years ago,

3:32

she becomes a public figure representing

3:35

domestic abuse. Those words are

3:37

very critical in this case. Got it.

3:39

And she said that she felt the full

3:41

force of our culture's wrath for women

3:44

who speak out. And so even

3:46

though she doesn't say his name, it's clear she's

3:48

referring to a time in twenty sixteen

3:51

when she accused him of abuse. And

3:54

depth feels like this

3:56

op ed is clearly referring to him and

3:58

everyone knows it. Mhmm. And the result

4:00

of everyone knowing it is that he's losing

4:02

work he's losing his status

4:04

as this world famous actor. Mhmm.

4:07

So as a result, a few months after

4:10

the op ed is published, he sues. So

4:13

after he files this defamation lawsuit

4:16

and it gets closer and closer to trial,

4:18

LEAGUE EXPERTS ARE TELLING ME THIS IS GOING TO BE

4:20

UP HILL BATTLE FOR HIM TO WIN. WHY?

4:23

Reporter:

4:24

WELL, HE LOST A SIMILAR CASE IN BRITAIN

4:26

AND HE ALSO sued for defamation

4:28

there, but he didn't sue Amber Heard.

4:30

He sued the publisher of a British

4:32

tabloid, the son. And

4:34

the son called him a wife theater

4:37

and a headline. Mhmm. So I

4:39

I read the decision in that case.

4:41

It was a hundred and twenty something pages.

4:43

And The judge determined

4:45

that what the sun published was substantially

4:48

true based on evidence

4:50

that he said made him believe

4:52

that most of herd's accounts

4:54

of abuse were true. So

4:58

another reason it's an uphill battle is

5:00

because defamation cases are easier

5:02

to win in the UK and debt lost

5:04

in this case. Mhmm. So legal

5:06

experts expected that his chances would

5:08

be even worse in the United States.

5:11

And Julia, what is the legal

5:13

bar for proving defamation

5:16

in the United States?

5:18

So in the United States, the burden

5:20

of proof is on the plaintiff, in this

5:22

case, Johnny Depp, to prove

5:24

that what was said about them was

5:26

untrue and the statement

5:29

was made with actual malice, which means

5:31

basically that the person knew they were lying,

5:34

knew what they were saying was false, or they had

5:36

high degree of awareness that the

5:38

statement was probably false.

5:41

So a relatively high bar prove that someone

5:43

making an accusation like this knows

5:46

that it's false, which seems like

5:48

a difficult thing to establish. And

5:51

therefore,

5:52

did it nevertheless with malice

5:54

to try to hurt the person they were accusing.

5:57

Right.

5:58

Okay. Well, as we know, Depp

6:00

was able to meet that legal

6:02

bar. The jury, in his case, found that Amber

6:05

Heard, had defamed him and owed

6:07

him millions of dollars as a result. So let's

6:09

go through the trial to understand

6:11

how a jury might have come to the result.

6:14

It did especially given what

6:16

you and the lawyers you talked to have just described

6:18

as the relatively high bar

6:21

for accomplishing this.

6:23

Right. So to be clear, I

6:25

was watching from the comfort of

6:27

my office and my home like many were

6:30

over livestream. Mhmm. And that

6:32

was because the public fervor over

6:34

this trial was so intense. People

6:37

were lining up in middle of the night just to get

6:39

seats. And honestly, my focus

6:42

was on what was being said in the courtroom.

6:44

So I decided to

6:47

Wipes the livestream. Alright. Good

6:49

morning. Good

6:50

morning. Alright. Do we have any political

6:51

At the beginning of the trial, we're in

6:53

April. Good morning. For

6:56

nearly thirty years, mister

6:59

Depp built a reputation as

7:01

one of the most talented actors in

7:03

Hollywood. Depths lawyers start

7:06

opening arguments. A respected

7:08

artist whose name was associated

7:11

with success at the box office.

7:14

Today, his name is associated

7:17

with a lie, a false statement

7:20

uttered by his former

7:22

wife, the defendant Amber

7:24

Heard.

7:25

And it's very clear from the beginning that

7:27

they're making this argument that Amber

7:30

Heard is an all out liar.

7:32

No one had ever in

7:34

five decades. No one had ever

7:37

accused Johnny Depp of

7:40

being abusive of any kind

7:42

with a woman. That she's lying

7:45

about every accusation of

7:47

domestic abuse by

7:49

choosing to lie about her

7:51

husband for her own personal

7:53

benefit. Amber heard

7:56

forever changed mister Depp's life

7:58

and reputation.

8:00

And you want And that she's doing it, you

8:02

know, as they wrote in their lawsuit

8:04

because she wants to become a,

8:05

quote, darling of the Me

8:07

Too movement. Yeah. Alright?

8:10

Opening statements?

8:12

Yes, ma'am. Mister Rottenborn.

8:15

On the other side of the courtroom, we have

8:17

heard and her legal team making their

8:19

argument. What this case is about

8:22

is about the first amendment. About

8:24

that December eighteenth two thousand

8:26

eighteen op ed piece. And

8:28

whether misheard freedom

8:30

of speech and the first amendment give

8:34

her the right to say the words that she said.

8:37

That that right, that freedom speech

8:40

is what Amber Bird is asking you to uphold

8:42

and

8:42

protect. In this lawsuit.

8:44

They say that what Heard wrote in the op

8:46

ed is protected by the first amendment.

8:48

The evidence will show that Amber did

8:50

suffer domestic abuse. At the hands of Johnnie

8:53

Depp. And it took many forms

8:56

physical, short, but also

8:58

emotional, verbal,

9:00

psychological abuse. It's all

9:02

domestic abuse that she suffered

9:05

at his hands. And that every

9:07

word of her account of abuse is

9:09

true. You'll hear evidence of

9:11

crushing drug and alcohol abuse.

9:15

You'll hear evidence of Depp taking more

9:17

drugs than you can count. And

9:19

that all the damages to Depp's career are

9:21

his fault and a result of his substance

9:23

abuse problems. You'll hear evidence

9:25

that the same addictions that led him to abuse

9:27

Amber. Also

9:30

led to the demise of his careers and after.

9:32

Not Heard's fault. So any damages

9:34

that he suffered in his career are not

9:37

because of this op ed. And

9:39

it's time to

9:41

make Johnny take responsibility

9:44

MeToo tell him mister

9:46

Depp stop blaming other

9:48

people for your self created

9:50

problems. To

9:52

take responsibility for your

9:54

own life,

9:56

and it's up to you, ladies and gentlemen,

9:59

to make him do that. And so

10:01

their argument to the jury is look,

10:03

this is a very easy case. Look

10:05

at this single piece of paper at the center

10:07

of this case, this op ed, are

10:09

these statements true? And

10:11

their answer is yes.

10:14

Mhmm. So given all of that and

10:16

with the benefit now of hindsight,

10:19

what end up being the key moments in

10:21

this trial?

10:23

So, the center of this trial was the testimony

10:25

of Johnny Depp and Amber Heard. They

10:28

both testified over four days

10:30

And when they were on that stand

10:33

being questioned by their own lawyers, they were

10:35

giving very specific narratives

10:37

of what their relationship with

10:40

the other person looked like. Mhmm. But

10:42

when they were cross examined by the other side's

10:45

lawyers, they were challenged

10:47

on those accounts. They were challenged on

10:49

the accounts of who they were

10:51

in the relationship and what occurred during

10:53

the relationship. Alright.

10:56

Can you have a seat? Alright. Cross examination?

11:00

Thank you, your honor. Under cross

11:02

examination, Heard's lawyers confronted

11:04

him with text messages and emails

11:07

that they say go to

11:09

show that he's the abuser. One

11:11

of the most graphic examples of that is

11:14

a text message from twenty

11:15

thirteen. This is at the beginning of

11:17

their relationship And

11:19

In this text, mister

11:22

Depp.

11:23

Depp writes to a friend, the

11:25

actor, Paul Betney, actually, you

11:28

to text mister Bentley, let's burn

11:30

Amber, three ex exclamation points.

11:32

Right? You see

11:33

that? Produce you that.

11:35

Let's burn amber. Mhmm. And

11:37

and you didn't stop when you

11:39

said let's burn amber. Because

11:43

the the next text down, you say,

11:46

let's drown her before we

11:48

burn her, three exclamation

11:49

points. Did I read that right?

11:53

Yes. It's referring to that. Prior

11:55

to You didn't stop it. You

11:57

said, let's round her before we burn

12:00

her. After that, you made another

12:02

comment, and and I'd like to apologize to

12:04

the court and to the jury for some of the

12:06

language that I'm gonna have to use today.

12:08

But unfortunately, you're gonna see a lot

12:10

of documents with language like this.

12:13

After you said, let's drown her

12:15

before we burn her. Mister Deb,

12:17

you said I will fuck her burnt corpse

12:20

afterwards to make sure she is dead.

12:23

That's what you said that you would do

12:26

after you burned her and after you drowned her.

12:29

Did I read that

12:29

right? You certainly

12:31

did. Yes. And you wrote that about

12:33

It's a really violent

12:35

threatening language. It is.

12:37

And the point of this cross examination

12:40

is to essentially get these messages on

12:42

the record that he said these things.

12:45

Can you please bring up defendants

12:47

exhibits 638?

12:50

So then they try to show that he wasn't

12:52

only violent in his language but prone

12:54

to violent outbursts. And

12:58

they try to do that by showing a video.

13:06

Happen, which is secretly

13:09

recorded by herd at

13:11

first.

13:13

In which Johnny Depp is cursing

13:16

and is slamming cabinets morning.

13:18

All the time was so sorry. Did something

13:20

happen? Do you

13:23

this morning? I don't think so.

13:25

And at one point, slams the cabinet so hard

13:27

it breaks. Mhmm.

13:30

And pours himself a massive

13:33

glass of wine And so, Depp

13:35

has shown his video. And that's

13:37

you in the video, mister Depp. Right? That's

13:40

correct. And you would agree that

13:43

you were violent in that clip. Correct?

13:46

And he's asked to explain

13:49

what happened in it.

13:52

Clearly, I was having a bad time

13:56

being legally recorded by your

13:59

chosen others. Well,

14:02

it's quite fitting with the rest of the photographs

14:04

and tape recording she

14:06

made. So I thought

14:08

what what was most interesting is that she

14:11

tried to hide it from me and then that she

14:14

laughed and smiled at the end.

14:17

I felt that was most interesting part,

14:19

myself, but so yes. Yeah. I

14:21

I did assault a

14:24

couple of cabins, but I did not

14:26

touch miss

14:26

Heard. And as you can see, I think.

14:29

And even if this video

14:31

doesn't show Depp hitting

14:33

her head. Her lawyers are

14:35

arguing that it shows that

14:37

he's the kind of person who's the abuser

14:40

in the

14:40

relationship, not the victim. Mhmm.

14:43

Right. And clearly, what they're saying to the

14:46

jury is, How

14:48

can she be guilty of

14:50

defaming him when he's conducting himself

14:52

in this manner in a relationship?

14:55

Right. And there were friends of

14:57

hers, an makeup artist who testified

14:59

that they saw injuries on her as well

15:01

as photos of bruising or marks

15:03

on her

15:03

face, some of which she sent to

15:05

her nurse at the time. Alright. Your

15:08

next

15:08

witness? Your honor would like to call Laura

15:10

Amber Bird to be sent. Alright. And

15:12

heard herself took the stand to

15:14

talk and describe several instances of

15:17

alleged abuse. And one of the most

15:19

graphic examples she gives is of an

15:21

incident that she says takes place in

15:23

Australia in twenty

15:24

fifteen. The plan was

15:26

always for me to wrap

15:28

on my movie and then come and join

15:30

him in Australia. Where he was filming

15:32

p five Pampers five. Okay.

15:35

The couple's there because Johnny Depp

15:37

is filming the fifth pirates of the Caribbean

15:40

movie. Mhmm. One of his

15:42

most famous franchises. So

15:45

he took the a handful of pills,

15:48

and I didn't count how many, but

15:51

I think was either eight or

15:52

ten. I can't remember. And she said that

15:54

Depp had taken a lot of ecstasy one

15:56

night. The next thing

15:59

I remember is

16:04

we had an

16:06

interaction that I can't really

16:08

describe. It didn't make a lot of sense to me.

16:12

It was just belligerent. And

16:15

then launched into she described

16:17

as a belligerent assault in

16:19

their rental home. I remember this time he slams

16:22

me up against the wall hard. I

16:24

mean, I hit my head hard. She

16:26

says at one point he slams

16:28

her up against the wall.

16:31

I don't know how much

16:33

time passed, but at some point he a

16:35

broken bottle up

16:38

against my face, neck

16:41

area by my jawline

16:43

and He told me he'd carve up

16:45

my

16:45

face. And

16:48

at another point, she says he throws her across

16:50

the room into

16:51

a ping pong table. He's

16:52

separate, but he gets on top

16:54

of me on the game's

16:56

table

16:57

and he was just whacking me in the face.

17:01

Like, repetitive.

17:02

Then gets on top of her and is

17:04

repeatedly whacking her. Your

17:06

own. And at some point, I'm

17:08

up

17:08

against the wall and he's screaming at

17:10

me. He's

17:12

like, at the top of his lungs,

17:14

screaming. I fucking hate you. I

17:16

fucking hay. You ruin my fucking life.

17:19

And screaming at the top of the science

17:21

piece. And at this point, there's glass everywhere.

17:24

Because

17:24

she says she threw glass bottle on the ground

17:26

and he was throwing bottles. I

17:29

don't know how. Like,

17:32

what do we have in next? God.

17:42

I won't when I the

17:44

next day I remember. I

17:48

always been over backwards.

17:54

And I thought he was

17:56

punching me. And he

17:58

thought he was I

18:01

was nervous. Felt

18:12

this pressure. I felt this pressure. You

18:16

know my feeling about

18:17

it. You said

18:20

he was punchy.

18:22

And, ultimately, she says she

18:25

feels this pressure on her pubic bone, which

18:27

she later determines

18:29

was him sexually assaulting her with

18:32

which he thinks was a bottle. I

18:35

don't know how that I

18:38

don't know how. I

18:40

got off the countertop. I

18:43

remember there was a blood on the floor. Don't

18:55

know how that night ended.

18:58

So the injuries she has after

19:00

that involve, according

19:03

to her, cuts on her

19:04

forearms, cuts on the bottom of her

19:06

feet, bruising across her jaw,

19:11

and bleeding from her vagina.

19:13

And as someone who's watched

19:15

this entire trial, this was the

19:18

most emotional moment for

19:20

her on the stand. Mhmm. But

19:23

under cross examination, Depp's

19:25

lawyers tried to undermine her account of

19:27

abuse in Australia.

19:29

And you testified that you bled as result of

19:31

this sexual assault. Correct?

19:33

That is correct.

19:34

Alright. And

19:35

you testified that your forearms were cut,

19:37

my forearms and my feet, and

19:39

your feet were sliced

19:40

up. That's correct.

19:42

And you testified you had a bruise across your

19:44

jaw. That is correct. And

19:47

there is not a single medical

19:49

record reflecting treatment for any of

19:51

those injuries as their misheard? I

19:53

didn't seek treatment.

19:55

They draw attention to the fact that she did not

19:58

seek any medical treatment despite how

20:00

severe she said this assault was.

20:02

Now her lawyers try to remind the jury

20:05

through their arguments, through expert testimony

20:08

that many victims of domestic

20:10

abuse aren't documenting every

20:12

injury. And seeking

20:14

treatment for them. And noting

20:16

that many of these confrontations happen

20:19

behind closed doors where there are no witnesses.

20:21

Mhmm. Another key moment

20:24

where Depp's lawyers are trying to push

20:26

on Heard's credibility

20:28

is when they remind the jury The

20:31

fact that she says she only ever

20:33

hit death out of self defense in

20:35

order to protect herself. Mhmm. Come

20:38

on please pull up. Franklin's Exhibit

20:40

356. But then, they play this recording

20:42

of the two of them having an

20:44

argument. I'm

20:44

not gonna be in a physical fucking altercation

20:47

with you. Then

20:48

don't. You fucking hit me. Last

20:50

night, you

20:51

fucking

20:51

And you can hear that accusing

20:53

her of punching him. You I'm

20:55

sorry that I didn't

20:58

punch you

20:59

across the face in a proper spot, but was

21:01

hitting you. It was not punching you. But

21:03

you're not punched.

21:05

Don't tell me what it feels like to be punched.

21:07

She's quibbling over the language saying

21:09

that she hit him. She didn't punch him.

21:12

Because

21:12

you start physical fights.

21:13

Yes. Because you because you

21:16

start physical fights.

21:18

I did start a physical fight.

21:19

Yeah. You did. So I had to get the fuck out of there.

21:21

Yes. And very importantly,

21:23

you hear her say the words.

21:26

I did start a physical fight. And

21:28

that's undermining the idea that

21:30

she never instigated these

21:33

fights as she says.

21:34

That's you and mister Depp on that recording. Right, mister?

21:37

That's correct. And you said

21:39

you hit mister Depp. Right? Yeah.

21:41

I had to hit his body to get her in the

21:43

door. My question was, you said on

21:45

that recording that you hit mister Depp.

21:47

Right? Yes, I did. And you accuse

21:49

him of being a baby for not wanting to be in

21:51

a physical fight with

21:52

you. Right? Incorrect. I accuse him of

21:55

being a baby for complaining about me

21:57

hitting him when he was trying to get through the door.

21:59

I was trying to barricade.

22:01

But not only our depth and his lawyers

22:03

arguing that she is a liar, They

22:05

go further than that. They argue that

22:07

she's the abuser in the relationship. Mhmm.

22:10

Depp testifies that on their trip to

22:12

Australia, she attacked him.

22:14

I stood up and

22:17

I walked behind the bar and

22:19

there was a larger bottle of vodka kind

22:21

with the handle, you know, on

22:24

it. Mister Albert was

22:27

flinging

22:27

insults, left

22:29

right and center, and She

22:32

then grabbed that bottle and

22:37

and threw that. At me.

22:40

He testified that on that day his

22:42

finger was severed when she

22:44

threw a vodka bottle at his hand

22:46

and it exploded on his hand. I

22:49

felt heat and I felt as

22:53

if something were dripping down my

22:55

hand, you know. And

22:57

then I looked

22:59

down and realized

23:02

that

23:04

the the tip of my finger had

23:07

been severed. I

23:10

I And

23:10

so in the end, Depp's lawyers

23:12

argue that he's the one who

23:14

has records of his injuries

23:17

from this confrontation, not

23:19

her. Mhmm.

23:21

They play another recording of a conversation

23:24

between dep and heard. Please

23:26

tell people they'll give us a fair fight

23:28

and see what the see what the jury's

23:30

judge thinks. Couple of little Johnny.

23:32

Couple of Johnny guests. I joined

23:34

guests. Yeah. It's fine. Fine. I'm a victim of

23:36

people to

23:37

respond. And I know is to verify

23:39

if these, how many people believe, or

23:41

execute. The lawyer seemed

23:43

to be positioning this tape as heard almost

23:46

challenging depth to tell the world that he

23:48

is the victim of domestic

23:50

abuse. Mhmm. And she's

23:52

suggesting that people won't believe him

23:54

because he's a man. And what did you

23:56

say in response when misheard said, tells

23:58

the world Johnny, tell them Johnny

24:00

Depp, I, Johnny Depp, a man,

24:03

I'm a victim too of domestic violence.

24:07

said yes. I

24:10

have nothing further wrong or

24:11

something. So you can have a seat And this

24:13

really goes to the heart of the narrative

24:15

Depp's lawyers are trying to tell

24:17

that this is not your

24:19

typical me to abuse narrative.

24:22

In this case, they argue the

24:25

woman is the abuser and the man is

24:27

the abused. And in the end,

24:29

as we now know, Debs lawyer's

24:31

strategy did work because the jury

24:34

found that Heard had defamed Depp.

24:36

When she wrote an op ed in the Washington Post,

24:39

calling herself a public figure representing

24:41

domestic abuse. So

24:47

now the question is, beyond this

24:49

trial, what does that outcome mean for

24:51

both the accused and the

24:54

accusers moving forward? We'll

25:08

do it

25:08

back.

25:18

Teal Swan has millions of followers.

25:21

Who turn to her when they feel like they have nowhere

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25:25

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empire?

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Freeforms The De Bend. New

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episodes, Thursdays, Stream on

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I'm an investigative reporter at The New

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York Times. My dad is

25:56

a scientist. My career

25:58

has been devoted to scientific teaching

26:01

and research. I remember

26:03

growing up. I didn't fully understand

26:06

what he was doing every

26:07

day. But now that I would

26:09

as an investigative journalist, I

26:11

do understand.

26:13

So you have to start with facts. From

26:15

those facts, a hypothesis appears

26:18

and

26:18

then you work on try to

26:20

test that iPhone. I

26:22

do the same thing. Obtaining documents

26:25

crunching the data and I talk to as

26:27

many people as possible to get to the bottom

26:29

of the story. The New York Times

26:31

does not publish until we

26:33

can prove that something is true. The

26:36

best scientists are able to do

26:38

that deep work because they

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receive funding from their university

26:42

or the government. We, as journalists,

26:44

depend on funding from subscribers.

26:47

You can support that type of work by

26:49

subscribing to many of your times.

26:52

So, Julia, what does this verdict

26:54

mean for the accused and

26:56

the accusers? And let's start with

26:59

the accused because at the start of our conversation,

27:02

you said that defamation lawsuits like the

27:04

one Johnny Depp brought against Amber

27:06

Heard are an increasingly

27:08

popular approach for people

27:10

accused of sexual abuse

27:12

or assault. So the morning after

27:15

the verdict, I talked to a lawyer.

27:17

His name is Andrew Miltonberg, and

27:19

he regularly represents people

27:21

who are accused of sexual misconduct. And

27:23

he represents these people

27:26

in defamation cases against

27:28

their accusers. He said

27:30

he got about a dozen emails from

27:32

clients after the verdict. Expressing

27:35

that they thought this dev verdict would

27:37

bode well for them that it could send

27:39

a positive signal for their

27:42

cases. And as their lawyer,

27:44

he obviously has to caution them that every

27:46

case is different, that they're not Johnny Depp,

27:48

they're not a massive movie star with fan

27:50

based live tweeting in support of them and

27:52

defending their every word online. And

27:55

there's no legal precedent set in this

27:57

Virginia case that say a jury

27:59

in New York would have to follow. But

28:01

this lawyer did acknowledge that the verdict

28:03

sends a positive signal to an accused

28:05

plaintiff like his clients. A signal

28:08

that a jury in a case like this could

28:10

be willing to side with the accused who

28:12

has sued the accuser for defamation.

28:15

And the message is it is it this powerful legal

28:18

tool that is always in theory been available to people

28:20

accused of sexual misconduct, a defamation lawsuit,

28:23

but was seen as difficult to

28:25

pull off, now looks a lot

28:27

more attractive.

28:29

Right. And most of the lawsuits are settled

28:31

or dismissed by a judge. This

28:33

is a rare defamation

28:35

lawsuit that actually makes it a trial.

28:38

And the reason that so many

28:40

settle is because few people in the world

28:43

want embarrassing intimate details

28:45

out on display in front of the public

28:47

during legal

28:48

proceedings. So, you know, why not settle outside

28:50

of court? But -- Mhmm. --

28:52

this

28:52

lawyer, Andrew Miltonberg, said he can

28:54

see a world in which plaintiffs feel

28:57

emboldened to bring these cases into

28:59

the public to try to find the

29:01

redemption that Johnny Depp seems

29:03

to have achieved at least so far.

29:06

So in theory, this could mean a lot

29:08

more defamation lawsuits and defamation

29:10

trials could be

29:11

coming.

29:11

Howard Bauchner: It's possible, and there

29:14

are already cases like these working their

29:16

way through the court system. One

29:18

of the most prominent ones is actually

29:21

a lawsuit filed by Marilyn Manson,

29:23

the musician who happens

29:26

to be a good friend of Depp and was brought

29:28

up frequently throughout the trial. And

29:30

Manson sued his accuser who

29:33

said that he sexually assaulted her.

29:35

Mhmm. And

29:36

another major case we have coming, this

29:38

is someone that this lawyer Miltonburg

29:40

represents. Is filed

29:42

by the writer Stephen Elliott who

29:45

was included in a crowdsourced list

29:48

of men in media who had missed

29:50

behaved somehow. In his case, he was

29:52

accused of sexual assault which he has denied,

29:55

and he sued the creator of that list

29:57

for defamation.

29:59

So we've been talking about what this verdict means

30:01

for the accused. Primarily, these men

30:03

who from what you have found are

30:05

more emboldened to pursue a strategy

30:08

of suing their accusers for

30:09

defamation. But what

30:10

does this verdict mean for those who have made

30:13

the accusations of sexual

30:15

assault or sexual abuse?

30:17

So I talk to lawyers who consult

30:19

with accusers who are considering coming

30:21

forward with their accounts of abuse. Even

30:24

potentially through op eds like

30:26

Amber Heard did. And the fear

30:29

that I'm hearing from them is that

30:31

they'll see how Depp V. Heard

30:33

played out. And they'll think

30:35

themselves, why should I come forward

30:37

with a claim that could possibly result

30:40

in me being sued, spending

30:42

years defending a lawsuit, in

30:44

which I spend a whole lot

30:46

of money on legal fees. And then in

30:48

the end, I might lose and have

30:50

to pay the person I accused of misconduct,

30:53

lot of money. Right. And so

30:55

this fear is particularly heightened

30:57

around this case, I think. Because you

30:59

have a situation where

31:02

they saw this as a case that was very

31:04

unlikely for Johnny Depp to win.

31:06

Mhmm. For the reasons we discussed,

31:09

in terms of defamation law in

31:11

the United States, but also because

31:13

we had a case for a couple's therapists testified

31:16

that there was mutual abuse in this

31:18

relationship. And ultimately,

31:21

these lawyers thought that there is no way

31:23

a jury could find unanimous that the

31:26

statements at issue in this op ed

31:28

were

31:28

defamatory, but they did.

31:31

And we have to remember that One of the original

31:33

purposes of the Me Too movement was to create

31:35

a space for women to come forward

31:38

and not be fearful that their lives

31:40

will be destroyed by men who are much more

31:42

powerful and well resourced than them.

31:45

And I think these lawyers fear

31:47

that This verdict sends a blaring

31:50

message that they do have something to worry

31:52

about. And

31:57

as a result, it could turn back the clock

32:00

on MeToo and take us back to

32:02

a time when many women see

32:04

far more compelling reasons to stay

32:06

silent than to come forward. Well,

32:21

Julia, thank you very much. We

32:23

appreciate it. Thanks for having

32:24

me. We'll

32:43

be right back.

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Here's

33:35

what else you need. Turn the day.

33:39

The latest mass shootings in the US

33:42

left at least nine people dead

33:44

and about two dozen injured in

33:47

Pennsylvania, Tennessee, Virginia,

33:50

Arizona, and South Carolina. There

33:53

are intensive discussions underway It

33:55

includes people who have not been engaged on

33:57

this issue in the

33:58

past. The shootings occurred as

34:00

lawmakers from both parties, including

34:03

senator Pat Tumi of Pennsylvania,

34:07

closed in on a possible deal

34:09

to pass gun safety legislation

34:13

The details of the negotiations remain

34:15

unclear, but are said

34:18

to include expanded background

34:20

checks

34:21

and a federal red flag law.

34:23

I can't certainly can't guarantee

34:25

any outcome, but it feels to

34:27

me like we are close than we've been since

34:30

I've been in the sun.

34:32

And the Michigan plant,

34:34

whose closure, helped trigger

34:36

a nationwide shortage of baby

34:39

formula restarted production

34:41

over the weekend, raising hopes

34:43

that the shortage may soon end.

34:47

The plant, run by Abbott

34:49

Nutrition, was shut down

34:51

in February over concerns that

34:53

baby formula manufactured there.

34:56

Was contaminated with a dangerous

34:58

bacteria known to

35:00

thicken and even kill.

35:03

Young babies. Today's

35:07

episode was produced by

35:09

Rochelle Bonja, Eric Kruppke

35:11

and Sydney Harbour. It was

35:13

edited by Mark George and Lisa

35:16

Chow, contains original music

35:18

by Dan Powell and Mary and Lozano.

35:21

And was engineered by Chris Wood.

35:24

Our theme music is by Jim Lundberg

35:26

and Ben Landberg. I'm wondering That's

35:31

it for the daily. I'm Michael

35:33

Movado. See you tomorrow.