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1:59

Greg Sargent. President

2:08

Donald Trump is growing angrier and

2:10

angrier over polls that keep showing

2:12

him tanking. On Monday, he

2:14

erupted on Truth Social, raging that

2:17

polls sponsored by media organizations

2:19

are compromised and corrupt. Then

2:21

he went even further, quoting one of

2:23

his own pollsters, saying that two

2:25

major new surveys are fake polls. All

2:28

this raises a deeper question. To

2:31

what degree are the people around Trump simply

2:33

lying to him about how things are

2:35

going right now? It's becoming clear

2:37

that they're lying to him about the state

2:39

of public opinion, and even lying to him

2:41

about the legality of his own policies. Today,

2:45

we're talking about all this with journalist and

2:47

author Michael Cohen, who has a new piece

2:49

up on his sub -stack, Truth and Consequences, suggesting

2:51

that it really does look as if Trump's

2:53

aides are keeping him in a state of

2:55

delusion right now. Michael, thanks for

2:57

coming on. Great, great to be here.

2:59

Thanks for having me. So

3:01

Trump is particularly upset over new polls

3:03

from the New York Times and

3:05

the Washington Post. The Times has

3:07

Trump's approval rating at 42%, and the

3:09

new post poll has it at

3:11

39%. Trump erupted on

3:14

truth social and said the

3:16

greatly respected pollster John McLaughlin

3:18

has said that these are

3:20

quote fake polls from fake

3:22

news organizations Trump called these

3:24

organizations sick and the enemy

3:26

of the people Didn't mention that

3:28

John McLaughlin's firm does polling for

3:30

one Donald J Trump Michael here

3:32

Trump is citing his own pollster

3:34

to claim that polls by news

3:37

organizations have been deliberately faked It's

3:39

pretty hard, I think, for Trump to argue

3:41

that the polls are rigged against him when

3:43

pretty much every single poll shows him doing poorly.

3:45

I mean, this is not, like, just too

3:48

bad polls for Trump. This has been a trend

3:50

line we've seen now, I mean, basically

3:52

since February or March. And so

3:54

I think it's kind of, like,

3:56

I'm not surprised by it. This is the way Trump

3:58

sort of lashes out at people and lashes out at,

4:00

you know, bad news against him,

4:02

but... I think it's

4:04

pretty obvious that his numbers are bad.

4:07

You know, one thing that I am struck

4:09

by and it occurs to me that it's

4:11

very possible that he simply wasn't aware of

4:13

how bad his polls are or how bad

4:15

his polls are doing. You know,

4:17

it wouldn't shock me if it's being

4:19

kept away from him by his own

4:21

aides. And so perhaps there was just

4:24

no way to avoid it this weekend

4:26

because these obviously got a great deal

4:28

of attention in major newspapers, ones that

4:30

I assume he Maybe glances at or

4:32

maybe has some some understanding of what

4:34

they're saying about him So it's possible

4:36

that this is the first he's aware

4:39

of just how poorly he is pulling

4:41

It's worth noting that Trump is actually

4:43

raging at Fox News as well He

4:45

had a bad poll from Fox the

4:47

other day and Trump tweeted Rupert Murdoch

4:49

has told me for years that he's

4:51

gonna get rid of his Fox News

4:54

Trump hating fake pollster, but has never

4:56

done so and so it's not as

4:58

if he's He's completely insulated from the

5:00

realities of public opinion. Even Fox News

5:02

is talking about him starting to slide

5:04

in the polls in their own polling. And

5:07

his response to even that is

5:09

to rage and call it fake and

5:11

rigged and all the rest of

5:13

it. I mean, what do you make

5:16

of that part of it? If

5:18

he's angry at Rupert Murdoch for supposedly

5:20

trying to hurt him with the

5:22

wrong kind of polling or a fake

5:24

pollster, then it's starting to sound

5:26

pretty desperate, isn't it? Yeah, I would

5:28

say so. But I think it's

5:30

also sort of interesting that, you know,

5:32

up until this point, Trump and

5:35

the White House seemed oddly indifferent to

5:37

their lousy public opinion numbers. You

5:39

know, I think I've been really struck

5:41

by in this in this second

5:43

term, second time around with Trump is

5:45

that he's pursuing policies that are

5:47

not very popular and doesn't seem that

5:49

bothered by them being popular. Like

5:51

he didn't back off on any of

5:53

the tariff and trade policies because public

5:56

opinion was opposed to it. I mean, as far

5:58

as we know, it seemed like he backed off

6:00

of it because, you know, he feared possibly sparking

6:02

a depression or he feared the effect of the

6:04

bond markets who seem to have more power

6:07

these days than the polls do, least when at

6:09

least the White House. So, you know,

6:11

I'm, it's a little, I'm a little

6:13

taken aback by it. And I can only

6:15

assume that maybe he wasn't fully aware

6:17

of just how poorly he's been doing because

6:19

up to this point, this White House

6:21

has shown a sort of a stunning indifference

6:24

to how you know, popular their policies

6:26

are or not. I just want to bear

6:28

down on one more aspect of this

6:30

whole thing. It's important to note that both

6:32

the times and the post poll find

6:34

very broad disapproval of Trump's abuses of power

6:36

in particular. Yeah. The post

6:38

poll finds majorities think Trump has

6:41

exceeded his authority and disapprove of his

6:43

lawless abuses of power on immigration

6:45

in particular. The Times

6:47

polls similarly found majorities say Trump

6:49

has exceeded his powers and disapprove

6:51

of his handling of Kilmara Brego

6:53

Garcia, who was illegally sent to

6:55

a prison in El Salvador. So

6:58

if you step back, what you

7:00

really have here is Trump's pollster deceiving

7:02

him about the true nature of

7:04

public opinion when it comes to his

7:06

lawless overreach. I think it's

7:08

very likely that his advisors are

7:10

telling him that the public is

7:12

fully behind the lawlessness, at least

7:14

some of his advisors, the ones

7:17

like Stephen Miller who really want

7:19

full, full -blown fascism to emerge

7:21

here. What do you think? It's

7:23

not clear to me that he understands

7:25

even that he's breaking the law on the

7:27

Garcia, the Ebreo Garcia case. And

7:29

I mean, there was an interview he

7:32

did with Oswaltime magazine, sort of the 100

7:34

-day, you know, benchmark and they interviewed him

7:36

and they asked him about this case. And

7:39

he, you know, they said, do you, the

7:41

Supreme Court ruled that that you have to

7:44

bring, you know, Kamara Brea Garcia back. Aren't

7:46

you disabaining the Supreme Court? And he said,

7:48

that's not my people. That's not what my

7:50

people told me. You know, they say that

7:52

this nine to nothing decision was something very

7:54

different and actually was something in my favor.

7:57

And then he goes to great lengths in

7:59

this interview to say on more than one

8:01

occasion that he always thinks he should abide

8:03

by and comply with Supreme Court decisions. In

8:05

fact, he says it, I think two or

8:07

three times as he buys by lower court

8:09

rulings. And I actually have to say, you

8:12

know, Give give the man is

8:14

doing this one by and large

8:16

his administration has adhered to court

8:18

orders many of which have gone

8:20

against them since January I

8:22

mean they've adhered to them on issues

8:24

like transgender troops the military they've adhered

8:26

on issues like birthright citizenship I mean

8:28

when they've been told to do things

8:30

they generally have done it but not

8:32

on this case and I strongly suspect

8:35

that what's happening here is he simply

8:37

doesn't know that the Supreme Court told

8:39

him to facilitate their turn across the

8:42

Well, there's something else I want to bring

8:44

up in the Time Magazine interview because it

8:46

supports what you're saying here. Trump

8:48

was asked if he

8:50

has requested of El

8:52

Salvador and President Naid

8:54

Boukele to return a

8:56

Brego Garcia. And

8:58

Trump said, no, I haven't asked

9:01

him. And then the

9:03

reporters asked Trump, well, if you

9:05

haven't asked him, then how are you

9:07

facilitating his release, meaning he's violating

9:09

the Supreme Court? And

9:11

so Trump answered that by saying,

9:13

well, my attorneys haven't asked me

9:15

to ask Bukele to release a

9:17

Brego Garcia. So he's. throwing his

9:19

own attorneys under the bus here.

9:21

He's basically saying, my lawyers have

9:24

not told me I have to

9:26

comply with the Supreme Court in

9:28

the way that you're saying, which

9:30

I think really underscores this basic

9:32

idea, which is that he's being fundamentally

9:34

deceived about the legality of his

9:36

policies. Did you catch that detail? I

9:39

mean, I thought it was extraordinary. I

9:41

mean, so at one point he

9:44

says, nobody asked me

9:46

to ask him that question, which was,

9:48

are you going to return Camarra Bray

9:50

or Garcia United States? Which,

9:52

I don't know, it says to me that, you

9:55

know, no one asked him to do it,

9:57

so he didn't do it. I just genuinely don't

9:59

think he's aware of how the Supreme Court

10:01

ruled in this particular case. And if that's true,

10:03

I mean, that's a little bit terrifying.

10:05

But first of all, it's just Stephen

10:07

Miller's running immigration policy to a much

10:10

larger extent than even we suspected before.

10:12

But it also suggests that Trump is

10:14

simply not aware of what is going

10:16

on around him at the White House.

10:18

He's not aware of what decisions the

10:20

Supreme Court is making. And I think

10:22

we know this about Trump. He's not

10:24

the smartest, you know, butter knife from

10:26

the drawer. I think he doesn't, he's

10:28

not going to go look at the

10:30

Supreme Court ruling and see that it

10:32

rules against him. He's going to take

10:34

the word of his aides. It looks

10:36

to me like Stephen Miller is starting

10:38

to sense that the Supreme Court

10:40

is going to rule against them in the

10:42

end in a final way on Abrego

10:44

Garcia. If that happens, as

10:46

you say, they have been following

10:49

some court orders. They've

10:51

really dug in pretty hard behind this

10:53

idea that Abrego Garcia is never coming

10:55

back, period. If we bring Abrego Garcia

10:57

back, it will mean capitulating to the

10:59

liberal media and to all the hated

11:01

liberals who think the law should be

11:03

enforced. So that can happen. And so

11:05

I think Stephen Miller is trying to

11:07

steal Trump for the eventual need to

11:09

defy the Supreme Court in one way

11:12

or another. And it will try to,

11:14

the way he'll try to get there

11:16

is by essentially telling him, everyone else

11:18

is lying to you. The court has

11:20

told you that it's really okay for

11:22

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to get started. So I think

11:55

there's a lot to that argument. And I

11:57

think it's quite possible that you're right about

11:59

that. But I think, so here, let me

12:01

go back a second. Refused

12:05

to abide by its Supreme Court ruling

12:07

to facilitate his return I assume they were

12:09

doing this because they think this is

12:11

a winning issue for them on immigration And

12:13

if there's any place they're gonna defy

12:15

the courts it's gonna be an immigration and

12:17

deportation because they think this this plays

12:19

in their favor I mean look the polling

12:21

suggests it does not actually suggest that

12:23

this is actually really hurting Trump But I

12:25

think the view inside the White House

12:28

is this is our issue. I mean in

12:30

fact, you know Miller says it In

12:32

that Oval Office meeting with the El Salvador President,

12:34

he says, this is a 90 -10 issue for

12:37

us. He literally says those words. So I think

12:39

he thinks this is a winner for them. So

12:41

that was what I was assuming was happening. They

12:43

were just going, OK, we're going to abide by

12:45

corridors, but not here, because this is a good

12:47

issue for us. I don't know what's happening.

12:50

Now, I think Miller wants

12:52

President Trump to position that

12:54

on this issue, on deportation

12:56

issues, the Supreme Court cannot

12:58

tell him what to do. And

13:02

he's made this argument. He

13:04

said that his power to conduct

13:06

foreign relations is sort of

13:08

unimpeachable, and the Supreme Court cannot

13:10

interfere, which now Miller interprets

13:12

the case, the decision, which is

13:14

also incorrect, clearly incorrect. So

13:16

I think you might be right that he

13:18

is stealing him for a moment in which he

13:20

is going to continue to violate a court

13:22

order, continue to ignore the court, and

13:25

do so out of Trump's case

13:27

out of ignorance. Now, the

13:29

thing is that What worries me about

13:31

this is that the court looking at

13:33

this could conclude, do we

13:35

really want to, right now the White

13:37

House is refusing to abide by this

13:40

order, refusing to facilitate its return. Do

13:42

we really want to go there again

13:44

and say to the White House, again,

13:46

you need to do this? Because if

13:48

they don't, if the White House continues

13:50

to say, no, we're not going to

13:52

abide by this order, does it then

13:54

weaken the credibility, fundamentally weaken the credibility

13:56

of the Supreme Court? does

13:59

it lead to the court basically looking like a

14:01

paper tiger? I think that's

14:03

a real concern. If I'm on

14:05

the court forgetting the illogical makeup of

14:07

the court, that's a legitimate concern,

14:09

right? I mean, the court has no

14:11

enforcement mechanism whatsoever on their words.

14:13

They have to, it basically relies on

14:15

political norms. So what

14:18

if, you know, they think that

14:20

Trump's not going to abide by this

14:22

political norm? They might just rule in

14:24

such a way that gives Trump some

14:26

kind of political out on this issue.

14:28

I think it's a real concern. And

14:30

maybe that's what Miller's trying to accomplish

14:32

here. But to my mind, there is

14:34

no question that Stephen Miller, not Donald

14:36

Trump, is driving the stubbornness of the

14:38

White House in abiding by the Supreme

14:40

Court order. It's not Trump doing this.

14:42

This is Stephen Miller is doing this. Right.

14:45

If I understand you correctly, and

14:47

I think this makes a lot

14:49

of sense, it's basically Stephen Miller

14:51

bluffing the Supreme Court. Yes, exactly

14:54

right. By saying over and

14:56

over, no, we won before the Supreme Court.

14:58

He's essentially saying to the Supreme Court,

15:00

we're going to roll over you if you

15:02

don't give us a way to claim

15:04

victory at the end of the day here.

15:06

And this is why, by the way,

15:08

I think two things are really important about

15:10

this. One, the fact that

15:12

his aides are lying to him

15:14

about public opinion, and two, that

15:16

the public opinion is about the

15:19

abuses of power on immigration in

15:21

particular. Because what we're learning from

15:23

this polling is that Stephen Miller

15:25

is wrong, that when they abuse

15:27

their power on immigration and act

15:29

lawlessly and send people to black

15:31

sites and snatch people off the

15:33

streets, the public reacts badly. They're

15:35

not seeing it through just the

15:37

prism of, oh, Trump is just

15:39

dealing with illegals. Stephen Miller

15:41

calculated that they would see it

15:43

that way, but Americans aren't seeing it

15:46

that way They're seeing it in

15:48

terms of the lawlessness and so when

15:50

the polls show that the lawlessness

15:52

is unpopular and when Trump's own people

15:54

deceive him about what those polls

15:56

are showing They're essentially trying to get

15:58

to the place where the lawlessness

16:00

continues Yeah, and by the way look

16:03

at the polling aggregators on this

16:05

you can look at there's a number

16:07

of them the numbers have really

16:09

declined for Trump in the past week

16:11

or so. And they really, look,

16:13

I can't say this with certainty, but

16:16

it sure seems as though

16:18

the Abraham Christian history, oddly

16:20

enough, contrary to a lot

16:22

of media, the abundance it

16:24

takes on this, has actually

16:26

seemed to increase the decline

16:29

in Trump's public approval. I

16:31

think if you look at it from like

16:33

sort of the mid -April to where it

16:35

is now, it has dropped rather dramatically in

16:37

that period of time. So I think this

16:39

is, I think you're right. I think the

16:42

lawlessness is one that even upsets people who

16:44

are supportive of the president. If

16:46

the court does say in one

16:48

form or other you have to

16:50

facilitate and effectuate Ebrego Garcia's return,

16:52

there will come a point where

16:54

Stephen Miller and those around him

16:56

that are like -minded are going to

16:58

want A confrontation with the court.

17:00

Do you think that's going to

17:03

happen and what happens then? You

17:05

know, it's it's look, it's hard to say,

17:07

right? I do want to just make one other

17:09

point here. Just as really quickly that if

17:11

you do leak read this interview, he does say

17:14

at one point about a break or see

17:16

a bringing him back and retrying him wouldn't bother

17:18

me. So I don't know that he'd be

17:20

all that bothered by doing it. But I think

17:22

what you're laying out, you know, it

17:24

Unfortunately, I think it's

17:26

correct that this the White

17:28

House, and I don't

17:30

mean Trump, I mean

17:32

people around Trump, I think

17:35

it concluded that this is

17:37

a place where they can

17:39

potentially expand their power. So,

17:42

you know, this is part of the

17:44

problem we're dealing with here is that, you

17:46

know, ultimately, when you have this situation where

17:49

the governing trifecta where the White House and

17:51

the House and the Senate, the only real

17:53

check on them is our Republicans, and they've

17:55

shown no inclination to be a check on

17:57

Trump. So, You

17:59

know look Does there there's a kind

18:01

of point when his numbers get worse and

18:03

they say they have no choice? Maybe. But

18:06

if I'm a Republican, know, in

18:08

the vast majority of national Republicans I'm

18:10

in a safe district, right? You're

18:12

I'm a district that they own biggest risk

18:14

is of losing a primary, not losing an election

18:16

to a Democrat. and if I'm like Tom

18:19

Tillis who might be the most vulnerable Republican in

18:21

the country, what's the bigger risk to me? Losing

18:23

2026 for Democrat or losing a

18:25

primary to a to a Maga Republican?

18:27

And I can tell you, if

18:29

Tom Tillis comes out against Trump, get

18:31

a primary challenge, he'll almost certainly

18:33

lose. And I think if you're Tillis

18:35

or any other Republican in this

18:38

situation, your calculation is I would rather

18:40

risk losing in to a

18:42

Democrat than risk facing a primary that

18:44

I will definitely lose. And I

18:46

don't see any reason to believe that's

18:48

going change. Well,

18:52

when you put it that way, it sure looks

18:54

like we're headed to a much darker place very,

18:56

very soon. Michael Cohen, thanks so much for coming

18:58

on with us, man. Great to talk to you.

19:00

Always a pleasure, Greg. Thanks for having me.