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1:00

.org phrma.org/IP works. Yeah.

1:12

by the DSR

1:14

network. I'm your

1:16

host, Greg Sargent.

1:26

By now you may have heard that

1:28

President Trump's ice thugs detained a

1:30

Tufts student under shocking circumstances. This

1:32

is only the latest in a

1:35

developing trend in which numerous students

1:37

are being targeted for removal based

1:39

in many cases on what appear

1:42

to be their political associations and

1:44

viewpoints. In a stunning moment on Thursday,

1:46

Secretary of State Marco Rubio stated

1:49

straight out that the administration is

1:51

hoping to do this hundreds of

1:53

times. We think this is a

1:55

watershed moment. Rubio confirmed the

1:58

scope and reach of... Trump's

2:00

deportation program and also confirmed

2:02

that he's willingly carrying them

2:05

out for Trump. Today we're talking about

2:07

all this with Shev de la

2:09

Al Dahini, a senior official at

2:11

the American Immigration Lawyers Association.

2:13

Shev, thanks so much for coming on.

2:16

My pleasure. So the latest example

2:18

of this involves a student named

2:20

Rumesa Oz Turk, a Turkish citizen

2:22

who has a student visa for

2:24

doctoral work at Tufts. She was

2:27

detained by Homeland Security agents near

2:29

her apartment in Somerville, Massachusetts.

2:31

Video of the event is all over

2:34

the internet. It's shocking. The ice agents

2:36

appear masked. Now Homeland Security is

2:38

claiming that she quote engaged in

2:40

activities in support of Hamas and

2:42

that this was grounds for her

2:44

visa to be revoked. Shev, what

2:46

do we know about this situation

2:48

so far? Yeah, I mean, I think

2:51

there's very limited information that is out

2:53

there and what is supporting... that

2:55

determination that she

2:58

supported Hamas activities.

3:01

All we know is that she

3:03

was one of four co-authors of

3:05

an opinion piece in the

3:07

university's own newsletter

3:10

calling for the

3:12

university officials to

3:14

support resolutions of

3:16

the student body

3:19

to recognize that there's

3:21

a genocide happening in

3:24

Palestine and also to

3:26

divest from businesses that

3:28

support Israel. So that is

3:31

all the information that is

3:33

currently available is that she

3:35

was an author, one of I

3:37

think four authors of this editorial

3:40

piece. We don't have additional

3:42

information about other involvement

3:45

that she has. I mean,

3:47

she's a Turkish citizen on

3:49

a student visa. who has

3:51

continued to comply with her status.

3:53

I'm gonna read from a Washington

3:56

Post article about this, which

3:58

underscores your point. which is how

4:00

little we know about why she's

4:03

been detained and why she's being

4:05

deported. The Washington Post says

4:07

this, Oz Turk does not appear

4:09

to have been a leading

4:11

figure in the pro-Palestinian protests

4:13

at Tufts. She co-authored this op-ed

4:15

that you discussed. The op-ed

4:17

written by four students and

4:19

endorsed by 32 others. argued

4:22

against the school's rejection of

4:24

student Senate resolutions, which they

4:26

wrote were an effort, quote,

4:28

to hold Israel accountable for

4:30

clear violations of international

4:32

law. Now, that sure sounds a

4:35

lot like speech to me. What do

4:37

you think? I mean, yep, sounds like

4:39

the First Amendment to me as well.

4:41

And I think that that's what is

4:43

really important here, is that we

4:46

may not agree with what folks

4:48

say. whether you're a U.S. citizen

4:50

or you're a non-citizen, you know,

4:52

we don't always have to

4:54

agree with what our opinions

4:56

are, but our Constitution protects

4:58

us all equally. Our Constitution

5:01

has the First Amendment, freedom of

5:03

speech, and that the Supreme Court

5:05

has held its precedent for over

5:08

decades that it applies to

5:10

U.S. citizens and non-citizens alike.

5:12

And I think that's what's

5:14

crucial. It's not about, you know,

5:16

what was stated in the op-ed or

5:19

what her beliefs may be,

5:21

but it's a question of whether

5:23

or not someone is being detained

5:26

and possibly deported because

5:28

of their exercise

5:30

of their First Amendment

5:33

rights. And we just know very

5:35

little from the administration beyond this

5:37

idea that she engaged in activities

5:39

in support of Hamas, which could

5:41

be just this op-ed for all

5:43

we know. We don't know yet.

5:45

But I want to stress that

5:47

a number of other students are

5:49

being targeted in this way. There's

5:51

Yonseiot Chung, a 21-year-old student at

5:53

Columbia, who's accused of attending demonstrations

5:55

in support of Palestinians. She's lived here

5:58

since she was seven years old. There's

6:00

Mahmoud Khalil and Badar Khan Suri who

6:02

were both legally present in the United

6:05

States. Khalil was a legal permanent resident.

6:07

Suri was here on a student visa.

6:09

They both have wives who are U.S.

6:12

citizens. The charges against all of them

6:14

appear very thin and a lot of this

6:16

is blocked in court for now anyway. Shev,

6:18

can you give us the rundown on these?

6:20

Yeah, I mean we don't know much

6:23

again. We don't have the

6:25

evidence with government hasn't come

6:27

out with allegations other than

6:29

saying that they are in

6:31

some way associated with Hamas

6:33

But you know it seems

6:35

like it's more about their

6:38

political statements and their participation

6:40

in Protest activity or

6:42

even their written opinions similar

6:45

to what happened with Miss

6:47

Auster Overall, what we can

6:49

discern from the facts, right, is

6:52

that this is all these

6:54

are all similar cases. These

6:56

are all related. They're all

6:58

being targeted for their political

7:00

beliefs. And beyond that, we

7:03

don't have any other evidence

7:05

of what kind of nefarious

7:07

activity they may have

7:09

been participating. Right. I mean, we

7:12

should have stressed that who knows?

7:14

Maybe the administration will produce proof

7:16

of exceptional and extensive wrongdoing on

7:18

the part of all these people,

7:20

but they haven't yet, and they've

7:22

been pressed over and over, and

7:24

they still haven't. And by the

7:26

way, as far as we can tell,

7:28

the three we mentioned earlier,

7:30

Yonsei Aachang, Mamud Kaleil, and

7:32

Badar Kansuri, are being targeted for

7:34

removal under a statute that allows

7:36

Rubio to revoke legal protections if

7:39

he deems someone a foreign policy

7:41

threat. We don't know for sure yet,

7:43

but the latest one, Oz Turk, might also

7:45

be getting targeted under the statute. Again,

7:47

we don't know for sure. But in

7:49

all these cases, the evidence has been

7:51

very thin that they constitute a threat.

7:54

Can you talk about this provision that they

7:56

seem to be using that empowers the

7:58

Secretary of State this way? Yeah, this

8:00

is a really arcane foreign

8:03

policy provision

8:05

that you know has

8:07

not been used in

8:09

you know frequently or has

8:11

very rarely been used

8:14

by the government. Really

8:16

it's about when the

8:18

Secretary of State has

8:20

reasonable grounds to believe

8:23

that someone's presence and

8:25

non-citizen's presence would have

8:27

serious adverse foreign policy consequences

8:29

to the United States, right?

8:31

That would then make them

8:33

deportable. But I think I

8:35

ought to have to reiterate

8:37

it's about you have reasonable

8:39

grounds to believe, right? That's

8:41

the first piece of it.

8:43

But the second piece is

8:45

that... They have serious adverse

8:47

foreign policy consequences. And I'm not

8:49

sure what a college student

8:52

protesting how that impacts

8:54

our foreign policy. That also

8:56

has not been articulated by

8:59

the Secretary of State or

9:01

the US government. Well, to

9:03

your point, we've now set the

9:05

stage to discuss Rivio's remarks

9:08

at a press conference on

9:10

Thursday. He talked about these efforts

9:13

to deport students, and here's what

9:15

he said. We do it every day. Every

9:17

time I find one of these lunatics, I

9:19

take away their visa. You're saying he could

9:21

be more than 300 people? Sure. I hope, I

9:23

mean, at some point I hope we run out

9:26

because we've gotten rid of all of

9:28

them. Shev, that's extraordinary. He says we

9:30

do it every day, we might do it

9:32

hundreds of times. And by the way, according

9:35

to the Washington Post, John Hudson

9:37

Post John Hudson, John Hudson, And

9:39

Rubia wouldn't say, beyond writing that

9:41

opinion column, what do you make

9:44

of all that? So, you know, when

9:46

we're talking about the authority, right,

9:48

the secretaries, the statutes do give

9:50

the Secretary of State authority to

9:52

revoke a non-immigrant visa, right?

9:55

But it's usually based on

9:57

receipt of derogatory information, such

9:59

as... arrest, and you know, or

10:01

they're looking at somebody who

10:04

didn't meet the requirement of

10:06

admission at the time the visa was

10:08

given, or where there's,

10:11

again, derogatory information provided

10:13

by another US government agency.

10:15

You know, at this point,

10:17

we don't have any of that

10:19

information. We have no evidence that

10:22

they have failed to maintain their

10:24

status, that they did not. were

10:26

not entitled to their visas

10:29

when they were given

10:31

their visas and The

10:33

only derogatory information

10:35

that is available

10:37

is that people were expressing

10:40

their Political opinions or

10:42

their right to speech

10:44

and that is what's

10:46

being punished currently

10:48

by by the Secretary of State Spring

10:51

is finally here for us in

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DC and more breaking news each

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and every day. To stay up

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Thank you and enjoy

11:31

the show. Yes, and

11:33

Rubio's quotes today

11:35

strike me as

11:37

important for another reason.

11:40

The legislative history of

11:42

the statute in question

11:44

that authorizes Rubio to

11:47

do these removals. on

11:49

the base study determines

11:51

that there are foreign

11:53

policy threat, shows that Congress's intent

11:56

was for it to be used

11:58

sparingly and not primarily to So

12:00

Rubio's claim that he's going to

12:02

be doing this hundreds of times and

12:04

every day, like whenever he sees someone

12:06

he doesn't like walking down the street

12:08

or whatever, sure seems to be at

12:11

odds with that intent, doesn't it? Can

12:13

you talk about this? Yeah, so

12:15

it's interesting when this provision,

12:17

this foreign policy ground, was

12:19

created by Congress, they expressly

12:21

included a safe harbor provision,

12:23

right, that explicitly prevented the

12:25

removal of someone because of

12:28

their past current or expected

12:30

beliefs that would otherwise be

12:32

lawful in the United States.

12:34

So if a US citizen

12:36

said that, if that was a legal action,

12:38

then it would be legal and they

12:40

should be protected from removal. if

12:43

there are non-citizen. The only

12:45

way the Secretary of State

12:47

can overcome that safe harbor

12:49

exception is that if

12:52

they personally determine that

12:54

the person's presence would

12:56

compromise a compelling U.S.

12:58

foreign policy interest. And we

13:00

don't know, again, what that

13:02

compelling U.S. foreign policy interest.

13:05

And in the past, including

13:07

in the legislative history, The

13:09

examples that Congress gave about

13:12

this compelling standard were pretty

13:14

high. So one of the

13:16

examples is that the individual's

13:18

presence would actually violate a

13:20

treaty or an international agreement.

13:23

And here we have nothing to that

13:25

level. We certainly don't. And

13:27

I think what the administration will

13:30

try to say, and they have

13:32

kind of said it, is that

13:34

the administration's foreign policy goal here

13:37

is to combat anti-Semitism. It's also

13:39

vague. I wonder whether this

13:42

stuff is legally vulnerable on

13:44

vagueness grounds. You know,

13:46

Rubio is just basically saying

13:48

these people constitute a serious

13:51

threat to US foreign policy

13:53

and not saying much more

13:55

than that. Maybe the statute

13:58

itself is vulnerable. to legal

14:00

challenges, right? How do you see

14:02

this unfolding? I mean, it's already

14:05

been susceptible to legal challenge,

14:07

right? There has previously been,

14:09

the statute has previously been

14:11

found unconstitutional by a federal

14:13

court because of the vagueness

14:15

of the statute. So I

14:17

think maybe you should be

14:19

a judge. But literally what,

14:21

you know, especially when it's

14:23

related to foreign policy because

14:25

nobody knows what our US

14:27

foreign policy is. It's not.

14:29

Oftentimes it's very secretive.

14:31

It's, you know, conducted at

14:34

very close levels and covert

14:36

manners. So it would be very

14:38

difficult for people to know,

14:40

especially at the time of when

14:43

they got their visa, whether they

14:45

would be engaging in something that

14:47

would violate federal policy. I mean, you

14:50

would want to consider that

14:52

these individuals all got their

14:54

visas and their permanent

14:56

residence well before. this administration

14:59

announced what its foreign policy

15:01

would be as it relates

15:04

to anti-Semitism. Just to

15:06

be clear, when you say it was

15:08

found unconstitutional by a

15:10

federal court, what happened

15:12

after that? Well, I think the

15:14

case got dismissed on other grounds

15:16

and so ultimately the law was

15:18

not struck down because it was

15:21

decided on other grounds. But I

15:23

think it is definitely ripe for

15:25

challenge and it is being challenged

15:27

currently and so we'll see how this

15:29

proceeds in the courts. Shev, just

15:31

to wrap this up, it really

15:33

looks like Rubio is emerging as

15:36

a central figure in Donald Trump's

15:38

deportation regime. I think this is

15:40

striking. Rubio a decade ago was

15:42

really a heroic figure in the

15:45

immigration debate in a certain respect.

15:47

He stuck his neck out and

15:49

very bravely argued for humane

15:51

immigration reform and even spoke

15:53

out powerfully about the humanity

15:56

of migrants, but now he's emerging

15:58

essential to some of them. most

16:00

questionable deportations that

16:03

Donald Trump is doing.

16:05

What do you think of that?

16:07

Yeah, you know, I'm concerned about

16:10

the lack of respect

16:12

for the law and for

16:14

the Constitution in carrying out

16:16

these mandates and these

16:18

orders. And we know that Secretary

16:21

Rubio, as you said, has had

16:24

a better track record on these

16:26

issues in the past. really

16:28

hope and implore that

16:30

there is some recognition

16:32

of what our law requires, what

16:35

due process means, and that we

16:37

are not just targeting people

16:39

who really aren't having

16:42

any direct impact on

16:44

our foreign policy or not

16:46

posing a threat to our

16:49

national security, just because

16:51

they are voicing opinions on

16:53

a college campus. We

16:55

really need Rubio to say

16:58

more clearly what the grounds

17:00

for doing these things really

17:02

is Yes, absolutely. I mean

17:04

if if individuals

17:07

Are legitimately problematic

17:10

and there's evidence

17:12

that proves that nobody

17:14

wants them in the

17:16

United States, but right now all

17:18

we have is their voice and

17:20

their pen and those are

17:23

not actionable Certainly

17:25

not. We really are hoping for better

17:27

from Secretary Rubio. Shev de Laldahini,

17:30

thank you so much for coming

17:32

on with us. We really appreciate

17:34

it. Thank you. You've been listening

17:37

to The Daily Blast with me,

17:39

your host, Greg Sargent. The Daily

17:41

Blast is a new Republic podcast

17:43

and is produced by Riley Fessler

17:45

on the DSR Network.