0:01

You're listening to Giraffe

0:03

King's Network.

0:21

You're

0:30

listening to Giraffe King's Network. This

1:00

is the Dan Labrador Show with the Stoogatz Podcast.

1:24

We are lucky enough to

1:26

have gotten John Skipper, the chairman and

1:28

CEO of Metal Ark, to spend an hour with

1:30

me. I'm David Sampson from Nothing Personal with David

1:33

Sampson. And we've got quite

1:35

a few topics to go over. It's been

1:37

a minute since I've been able to corral

1:40

both John and I at the same time. And I don't

1:42

want to waste a minute. John, you doing all right?

1:45

Yes, doing very well here in New York City.

1:47

Are you ready? Because we have to start

1:50

at the top of the show. It's been covered by Dan, it's

1:52

been covered by me, but we've got an angle

1:54

here that's a little different on the PGA

1:56

Live. I can only imagine your reaction.

1:59

I was thinking when the.

1:59

news got announced in the most clumsy

2:02

of ways.

2:03

I was smiling at the possibility

2:05

of a sport which you were eager

2:08

to invest in, all of a sudden

2:10

being sullied by Saudi

2:11

money. Were you

2:14

so happy not to beat ESPN when this

2:16

merger was announced? Well,

2:19

I was happy to be where I am even

2:22

before they announced the merger, so I'm still happy to

2:24

be here. I think you're asking whether I'm

2:27

happy to

2:28

avoid having to make

2:30

a decision about whether I want to

2:32

buy the rights for a

2:37

nonprofit goth

2:39

tour, which is now at

2:41

least partly owned by the

2:44

Saudi Arabian sovereign wealth

2:46

fund.

2:46

That's what you're asking, right? I'm really just

2:49

interested in the fact

2:51

that you have to do business with Saudi Arabia

2:53

now. There's so much money involved

2:56

and PGA realized they had a problem.

2:58

When you have an entity that, according

3:01

to J. Monahan, was bleeding

3:03

money in litigation, was worried about

3:06

losing more and more players over to live,

3:08

and the old adage, if you can't beat him, join

3:10

him. And that's what he did. He basically

3:13

announced that we couldn't beat you, so we're

3:15

deciding to join you. And

3:16

the decision has not gone over

3:19

well with either the players or

3:21

the constituents, but we have not

3:23

actually heard from any of the broadcast

3:26

partners. And I can't figure

3:28

that out. Why haven't we?

3:29

Because I don't think any of them want

3:32

to risk alienating somebody

3:35

before they understand what is actually

3:37

going on. I don't think

3:39

to date it's possible to actually understand

3:42

what has really happened here. We've heard

3:44

contradictory things, right? It was

3:46

a merger, then it wasn't a merger.

3:48

We're hearing that the chairman

3:51

is from the sovereign wealth fund, but the PGA

3:53

controls the tour. I

3:55

don't know what they've actually done. And I

3:57

think we do need to acknowledge that

3:59

you

3:59

and I both have heard the news this morning that

4:02

Jay Moynihan is recuperating

4:04

from some sort of

4:06

physical issue, and

4:09

I'm not inclined to speculate

4:12

or it's not my business what it is, but

4:14

we should be sensitive to while

4:17

we talk about this that we

4:19

wish Jay Moynihan well, though

4:22

I don't know if I wish it well in this merger

4:24

or not because I do

4:27

believe it's hard not to suggest

4:29

that he is capitulated. I don't

4:32

know if they really are at risk for

4:34

dramatic legal fees, but he's

4:36

capitulated. He has said,

4:39

I'm going to decide that given

4:41

the amount of money they have and given

4:43

the amount of controversy I'm now involved

4:45

in, I am going to join forces. But

4:48

of course it has not worked to date. All

4:51

it has done is create more chaos, more

4:55

non-unity, more questions,

4:58

and I also think it's very possible

5:00

this will be run off the tracks at

5:02

this point by governmental agencies

5:05

or other people. And I think to

5:08

your original question, the broadcast networks,

5:10

they love goth, so

5:12

they are not going to get in here and make some

5:15

rash remark that is going to

5:17

create problems with their relationship with the

5:19

PGA tour in whatever form it

5:21

emerges here.

5:22

But the broadcasters were not so

5:25

excited to do business with Liv, which had a

5:27

bunch of great names. It was an interesting

5:29

concept, Team Golf, 54 holes, everyone

5:31

makes the cut. The best they could do is buy

5:34

hours on CW. So clearly

5:36

the broadcasters have

5:38

already aligned and decided that

5:40

they wanted to side with PGA

5:42

and not with Liv, but then all of a

5:45

sudden you're going to have to deal with both. I

5:47

just think there's a reckoning coming and we

5:49

can talk about Jay Monahan, but I'm not

5:51

wishing to mail. I don't want him to be sick,

5:53

but that should not stop us from talking

5:55

about the absolute disaster

5:58

that came in his announcement. I hope it can be done.

5:59

It didn't lead to him getting sick, obviously. It

6:02

just leads to him, in my mind, being incompetent.

6:04

And he's been covering up ever since. And

6:06

the whole government issue, he actually met

6:08

his employees, John, I don't know if you saw this, it was

6:10

great.

6:11

He did a meeting. I was picturing him pulling

6:14

into the office and all the employees

6:16

there wondering in a merger, am I gonna lose

6:18

my job or is there gonna be shrinkage? And

6:21

him saying, hey, don't worry, this

6:23

isn't a merger.

6:25

First time that had been said that it

6:27

wasn't a merger because the government was

6:29

saying, if this is merger, we get to take

6:32

a look at this. And now J. Monahan

6:34

saying it's not a merger.

6:36

Did you ever meet your, I was thinking about,

6:38

I had to do this with our employees when

6:40

we were moving cities

6:42

and you had several thousand people on

6:44

the phone, their lives impacted. Are they

6:46

gonna be Montreal or Miami or California

6:48

or what?

6:49

But this is a whole different thing. Did you ever

6:52

do full wide

6:54

meetings with your employees?

6:56

We did, we did it with some

6:58

regularity to sort of talk about the state

7:01

of the state and to answer questions and

7:03

try to communicate. I'm

7:05

assuming he had that

7:08

in mind when he met with his employees, which is to

7:10

try to reassure them, give

7:12

them some insight, be a communicator.

7:15

On the other hand, if there's a lack

7:18

of clarity

7:19

on actually

7:21

what is going on, it is very tough to

7:23

be clear communicating. And what

7:26

they seem to be doing seems to be the very definition

7:29

of a merger, doesn't it? They are

7:32

taking, I don't know what they're doing if they're

7:34

not merging. Are they creating brand new

7:37

tournaments? It's not gonna include, I'm

7:39

assuming they're merging. Why, do you

7:42

have some information to suggest they're not merging

7:44

other than they're saying that they're not merging? Well, that's

7:47

a lagging indicator to me.

7:49

But yes, Greg Norman is

7:51

saying he of no information because

7:53

he wasn't even consulted, is saying that Liv lives

7:55

on. The PGA is saying

7:57

that I don't know if Liv is living on.

7:59

living on, but the PGA tour lives on

8:02

stronger and healthier and better with all the

8:04

majors and all the tournaments, everything stays the

8:06

same. But what they're telling the government

8:09

and senators like Senator Blumenthal

8:11

from Connecticut, was he a senator when you were in

8:13

Connecticut doing business with ESPN

8:15

to remember? Yes. So did you

8:17

have to deal with him?

8:19

Um, I don't the way that's put,

8:21

I didn't have to deal with him. He actually

8:24

did come by the office and visit more

8:28

than once. He was interested

8:30

because ESPN is a very large

8:32

employer in his state. And as you

8:34

know, it's a state that has a lot of problems

8:37

creating new jobs for itself. So

8:39

they paid a lot of attention and he was

8:42

a pleasure to deal with.

8:44

So we've had to deal with centers and

8:46

I do view it as a thing because you

8:48

have to let everyone know when a senator

8:50

is coming in, everyone's got to be on their best

8:52

behavior and there's certain things you can talk about, not

8:54

talk about. We wanted to give them autographs,

8:56

but we couldn't because of their value, et cetera, et cetera.

8:59

But this guy, Richard Blumenthal,

9:01

who I've not met, he is out front

9:03

of this issue saying that he's

9:06

very concerned that anything Saudi Arabia

9:08

involved that has to do with running

9:11

an American institution, that's

9:13

something that government has to take a look at, which

9:15

is why J. Monahan has been saying, no,

9:17

no, we're in charge. You remember what he said

9:20

upon the announcement, however dim it was, that

9:22

PGA has the majority. So

9:24

they've got all operational control. But

9:27

the fact is we don't know that at

9:29

all.

9:30

We do not. And it's a very, I

9:32

don't know of many situations

9:35

where the people with the money aren't in charge. In

9:38

this case, both these industries have money, have

9:41

money. An interesting question is

9:43

whether if this had started

9:46

with a secret meeting where the Saudis

9:48

decided to put a bunch of money

9:50

in as a minority

9:52

owner of the

9:54

PGA tour, they might never have had a problem. Right? You were asking

9:56

about broadcasters.

9:59

Broadcasters will probably accept

10:02

that, oh, Saudi money is in the

10:04

PGA. They raise their purposes. They

10:06

creating more opportunities for players

10:08

to make money. Fine. I don't

10:10

have a problem as a broadcaster then. I'm not saying

10:12

me, I would have a problem, but I don't

10:15

think we're going to find that most of their current broadcasters

10:18

have a particular problem with the Saudis

10:20

as a minority owner in a

10:23

tour. Of course, again, I'm puzzled by

10:25

the idea of a minority ownership in a nonprofit.

10:28

Well, it's a nonprofit entity. It's not a foundation.

10:32

I know you're hung up on this because you think the PGA

10:34

is for profit

10:35

and you're wondering why you'd give them so much money

10:37

as a sponsor or a broadcaster. But

10:40

they're passing the money through. Don't you worry. Your

10:43

money is getting into good hands. Right into Tiger's

10:45

hands. You could have just written a check right

10:47

to Tiger Woods. But you got

10:49

us to a place where we need to get, which is you've

10:52

said that you're good with Saudi Arabian

10:54

money, sports washing, Qatari

10:57

money, sovereign funds.

10:59

There's a lot of talk right now about

11:01

them being allowed to be limited partners,

11:03

as you just mentioned, in sports teams.

11:07

And that's coming. Make no mistake.

11:09

So you're right that in a way Saudi Arabia

11:11

is a partner now in golf and they're

11:14

going to be a partner in basketball. Adam

11:16

Silver announced that they will

11:18

allow sovereign fund investment in

11:20

basketball teams. And I smirked.

11:23

I smirked because Adam Silver has a job to do

11:25

that is not

11:27

he's not interested in whether the money is dirty or clean.

11:29

He's got a job to keep franchise valuations

11:32

going and to keep people able to

11:35

pay billions and billions of dollars for franchises.

11:37

There's only so many Matt Ishpias.

11:40

And so he's going to allow sovereign fund money in the

11:42

NBA. And when you're with him at lunch,

11:45

you're saying

11:46

great job, Adam. I like it.

11:48

I would quarrel with one

11:50

thing. I do think Adam, you

11:53

suggest he didn't care if the money was dirty

11:55

or not. I think he does. I think until

11:57

we see some investments and see where they come from.

11:59

that would be a bit

12:02

reckless to suggest that we know he's going

12:04

to take so-called dirty money. I

12:06

don't think you and I have even agreed on what makes

12:09

money dirty or not. Are

12:12

you differentiating- The money's not dirty. Well,

12:14

wait, are you diff, is the Saudi Arabian money

12:16

dirty that went, that's going into PGA?

12:18

You've been spending your whole time talking to me about how

12:21

terrible they are. Define, maybe

12:23

to help with this, define what you mean by dirty

12:26

money.

12:27

They made that money by drilling for oil

12:29

and selling it, that's not dirty. The

12:32

concerns are not that the money's dirty. The

12:34

concerns are that we

12:37

are

12:38

complicitous in the regime if

12:41

we're willing to take their money. The money's not

12:43

dirty. You've been very public in

12:45

your position about money

12:48

from Saudi Arabia, from Qatar, from

12:50

UAE, and the views that you have

12:53

of their political positions. And now

12:55

there's been an infiltration into North

12:57

American sports through golf and

13:00

now it's going to be in one of the four major sports, which

13:03

means it's going to be in all of the sports

13:05

soon. You know it, right? Do you agree with

13:07

that at least? I

13:09

would rather wait till someone

13:11

has actually taken the

13:13

money before I criticize

13:16

they're taking it. They're right.

13:18

No, no, I'm serious. I mean, I

13:21

will criticize the PGA Tour. They

13:23

have

13:25

capitulated and decided they are

13:27

willing to be in business despite

13:29

protestations, very overt

13:32

protestations that it was not

13:34

appropriate. I believe

13:37

that the head of the PGA

13:39

Tour said

13:40

that no one ever had to apologize

13:43

for being on the PGA Tour. People

13:45

are going to have to apologize for being

13:47

on the PGA Tour pretty soon.

13:49

Do you think the NBA will have to apologize

13:51

when there's a limited partner that's a sovereign fund?

13:54

If it's a sovereign fund of Switzerland, no.

13:57

I'm not talking about Switzerland, Jon.

13:59

talking about Saudi Arabia, Qatar,

14:02

UAE. They haven't taken

14:04

that money yet when they do. I'll be happy

14:06

to discuss it. If I were asked

14:09

me, would I take it? I would say no, I would

14:11

not take it.

14:12

So you're at lunch with Adam and

14:14

Adam says, John, we've

14:16

been friends a long time. I've got a job

14:19

to do here.

14:20

You say what to that? I

14:22

say, we will still be friends

14:25

no matter what you do. You are suggesting

14:27

you're gonna take investment. Are you telling

14:29

me that you're going to let the Saudi

14:32

Arabians put $2 billion

14:34

into the league?

14:35

Yes, I am. And if you are, I'm going to tell

14:38

you as your friend, I don't think that's

14:40

a great idea.

14:41

I know you've got a job to do. I think

14:43

the NBA valuations will

14:45

continue to grow whether

14:47

you take money from the sovereign wealth fund of

14:50

Saudi Arabia or not. That's

14:51

what I would tell you. But the owners are asking me. I'm

14:54

not an official advisor. He doesn't

14:56

have to come to me to ask

14:58

about anything. No need to caveat it.

15:00

No, but personally, do I think

15:03

it is seemly for the leagues

15:05

to take money from the Saudi

15:08

Arabians? I do not. I think

15:10

you're gonna have to come to grips. I'm not a big fan

15:12

of regimes that are homophobic, misogynist,

15:16

anti-Semitic, and that

15:18

chop up journalists. And when

15:20

those people come to me and say, hey, how

15:23

about I invest in your company?

15:25

My answer would be no.

15:27

I'm not either, but you're gonna have to come to grips with

15:29

this. And the reason is

15:31

the owners go to Adam as

15:33

they do to Rob Manford in baseball and

15:35

say, I want to do X. I

15:38

want to buy a network as Ted Leonisis

15:40

did or Jerry Rheinsdorf did. I

15:43

want to buy another team as

15:45

Ted wants to buy the Nationals, let's say, or

15:47

Jerry Rheinsdorf would wanna buy the Chicago

15:50

Bears as an example. I want a liquidity

15:52

event,

15:53

the valuation of my team. I

15:55

wanna put in the billions. And in order

15:58

to get anyone to come in...

15:59

as a limited partner because no

16:02

normal person would want to be a limited

16:04

partner at a $2 billion valuation

16:07

and put in $200 million for an

16:09

autographed

16:10

basketball, but this

16:13

sovereign fund, they're more than happy

16:15

to. How do I say no to that

16:17

when the owners come to me and say this is what

16:20

they want?

16:20

Now, how do you respond to that?

16:23

First of all, I think

16:25

some of the owners will similarly have

16:28

reservations about this. I don't

16:31

think everybody there is only

16:33

there to take whatever money comes

16:35

along that makes their valuations go up.

16:39

And I do think there are some things

16:41

more important than money. By

16:43

the way, I'm not suggesting

16:47

anything other than

16:49

I don't think it's seemingly, I don't

16:51

think it appropriate. I think what the PGA

16:53

tour has done is not a good

16:55

idea. Do

16:56

you think that doing business in China is seemingly?

17:00

Generally, not particularly.

17:02

No. It's a fascinating subject,

17:04

John, and I'm not putting you on the spot nor are you putting me,

17:07

but there is a limit. And

17:09

the problem with sports right now is

17:11

the numbers have gotten to a place that I don't

17:14

think any of us imagined they would get

17:16

to.

17:16

And you've got to get money from somewhere.

17:20

And that's really all we're talking about. PGA

17:22

tour went through. If they could have found

17:24

a partner to invest in them in

17:26

order to cover litigation costs, in order

17:28

to protect them, in order to make players

17:31

happy, they

17:32

wouldn't have, they would have wanted to crush

17:34

live, not combine with them. I

17:37

thought they, I actually thought they were

17:39

crushing live.

17:40

The live couldn't

17:42

get broadcast contracts. Nobody came to

17:44

the tournaments. They're not generating

17:47

any particular revenue. I don't understand

17:49

why they didn't wait them out and win

17:52

because they're unlimited. It's like when any lawsuit,

17:55

I'm sure you did this running a big company.

17:58

When you have an individual sue you, you can just.

17:59

discover them to death.

18:01

You can just lawyer it.

18:03

You can just drag it out. And

18:05

it's way better to sometimes have

18:08

someone accrue fees. I used to do that

18:11

often, where there'll be somebody suing.

18:15

Are we aware of how much money PGA

18:17

tours spent defending itself so far? They're,

18:20

they're claiming 50 to $100 million

18:24

spent already. And also in

18:26

terms of not just defending, but they also filed

18:28

suit. So they it's both

18:30

they were counter suits going on. It was

18:33

a bit of a legal mess with an unclear

18:35

finish,

18:36

actually. But he's right. J

18:39

mine is right. They dipped into their reserves for

18:41

this. And his point is that the sovereign

18:44

fund, there's no dipping into their reserves,

18:46

they don't need to drill another hole to get

18:48

different oil, they could have litigated this to

18:50

the end of time.

18:52

It's using out as one of the problems, the

18:54

threat of litigation to

18:56

force a merger

18:59

with their renegade golf

19:02

tour by the August PGA

19:06

tour. That's what they did.

19:08

They use litigation to force a merger.

19:11

There's so no one has drawn

19:14

that and I will not draw those two points.

19:16

I will say they are related but not

19:21

it is just a rationalization isn't

19:23

it? The rationalization is a purpose though, John,

19:26

in my opinion, right? I think the

19:28

purpose for PGA is that they realized

19:30

that they had a problem with live because of the players and

19:32

the irony is Jay didn't even tell Tiger Rory,

19:35

but the players were the ones who had been complaining

19:37

and you say that they had crushed live. I

19:40

don't think the players felt that way.

19:42

The players who were on live, they

19:45

were able to come back and win tournaments. What did Kepka

19:47

win?

19:48

He just won a tournament. Coke, I don't know if

19:50

you remember which tournament he won, but he just

19:52

came back to a tournament that was

19:54

big and there was something

19:56

that happened with another live player and the

19:58

purpose, the point

19:59

was they thought that if you took

20:02

the Saudi Arabian money from Liv, that you

20:04

were going to be excommunicated.

20:06

But then they're winning the PGA championship

20:08

and they're still heroes. And now

20:10

why wouldn't you have taken that money? So you can be

20:13

Rory McIlroy and say that I'm principal alone.

20:15

And then all of a sudden have to change your mind when they're

20:17

your partner.

20:19

It's not good.

20:21

I admire that Rory McIlroy

20:24

and Tiger Woods held their

20:26

ground and said, we believe

20:29

in the PGA tour and we're not

20:31

going to take this money. And I admired

20:34

that. And by the way, I haven't noticed that they have agreed

20:36

yet. They haven't actually been public, have they,

20:39

with what they think about this?

20:40

Rory McIlroy answered questions

20:43

actually and said that for

20:45

the good of the game, they're going to be partners and

20:48

I hope they're going to be good partners. But he

20:50

doesn't regret that he didn't go because that's,

20:52

of course, what the media was trying to get him to say. Tiger

20:54

has not said a word that I've seen, but I

20:56

don't know that I'd call it a smart business decision when

20:58

either of them did

21:00

because the other guys took the money and now

21:02

they get to be back part of the PGA.

21:04

But in terms of taking money, players

21:07

decide that all the time. Are they going to take money?

21:10

Do they go for the money? And my position has always

21:12

been as cynical as I may be that

21:14

if you offer a player a dollar more than

21:16

they're offered anywhere else, they will go. There's

21:19

an example that happened in soccer

21:21

where

21:22

Leo Messi said

21:25

outright,

21:26

I was offered way more money to go to Saudi

21:28

Arabia and

21:29

he was taking the moral

21:31

high ground, though he's

21:33

paid 30 million a year by Saudi Arabia

21:35

to be their ambassador. So I don't

21:38

know what high ground he was taking,

21:39

but that he wasn't going to choose Saudi Arabia.

21:42

He was choosing Miami and your

21:44

friend Don Garber

21:46

got quite the big news

21:49

as he attempts to become one of the big four that

21:51

Messi is coming to Miami. When you saw

21:53

that news, knowing that

21:56

Medallarq's footprint in Miami, actually

21:58

with everything that's been going on, Miami with the Heat and

22:00

the Panthers. It's a really good time to be associated

22:03

with Miami. Were you just over

22:05

the moon when that happened?

22:08

I was happy for all of our

22:10

guys in Miami who got to enjoy the

22:12

NHL and the NBA

22:14

runs, which I believe ended

22:17

at five games. So yeah, it was fun.

22:19

It's fun in the studio when Miami is winning. It's

22:22

fun when Messi's coming to Miami. By the

22:24

way, I don't think Don Garber's trying to

22:26

be part of the big four. I think he's trying to create

22:28

a big five.

22:30

So he's not trying to replace hockey. I always thought

22:32

that he was trying to get above hockey into the big

22:34

four.

22:35

In Africa, the safaris, right? There's

22:39

the big five animals you try to see. It's not

22:41

like one animal can say, I want to make it the big six.

22:44

It's just the big five. Well,

22:47

there you go. It's an interesting metaphor.

22:49

I was going to use accounting firms. It used

22:51

to be the big five accounting firms. And

22:53

they are merged by the way, and non mergers.

22:57

And maybe they're nonprofit companies

22:59

too.

23:00

But one of the great ways to know

23:03

a merger, John, that I love is

23:05

when they combine the names.

23:08

That's always a good way to know that

23:10

two firms have merged. Like,

23:12

and then one of the names disappears over

23:15

time. So it was Price

23:17

Waterhouse, Coopers, right?

23:21

And there was Viacom, CBS, or Warner

23:23

Brothers, Discovery. They'll all come together,

23:25

but eventually it just becomes max.

23:28

And then people forget. But Messi

23:31

comes to Miami. And the

23:33

deal, the part of the deal that interested me is

23:35

that Garber had to do

23:37

the deal. It wasn't Miami, Inter

23:39

Miami doing the deal.

23:41

It was Messi and MLS

23:43

cutting the deal because Messi is getting a piece

23:46

of league pie. And

23:47

I was mortified. I was

23:49

completely against this. It's

23:52

one thing what they did with Beckham, where he has

23:54

an option to get an expansion team,

23:56

which Messi, which Beckham got

23:58

and turned it into Inter Miami. Miami, actually, coincidentally.

24:01

But what they're doing with Messi

24:03

is what Nike did with Jordan,

24:06

as seen in the new movie Air,

24:08

where they're giving Messi a piece

24:10

of the Adidas pie and a piece

24:13

of the Apple subscription pie.

24:16

How does Apple agree

24:18

to that? Well,

24:20

I just assume they believe that his

24:22

presence will generate more income,

24:25

and consequently, they're happy to give him a piece

24:27

of that. It's just commission, right?

24:30

He's a commission on subs, a commission on ticket

24:32

sales. I'm not sure what's commission on. I

24:35

don't actually know the- It's the subs. So

24:37

Apple, with their streaming rights deal, what

24:39

they're saying is that any people who join

24:41

Apple

24:43

subs for MLS, not

24:45

Apple TV, who do the MLS

24:47

package, he'll get a piece of it. And

24:50

so it's but for, but for Messi

24:52

being an MLS, these people were not becoming

24:55

subscribers. They weren't buying the package. Now

24:58

they are. Is that not

25:00

a dangerous precedent? When you're running

25:02

a business, I'm not willing, I love

25:05

paying commission to sales people, but

25:08

that's really almost an equity

25:10

piece in my mind that MLS

25:12

should not have allowed because what

25:14

stops the next player? What about Mbappe?

25:17

They're

25:17

saying that he's going to leave PSG as a free agent.

25:20

Wouldn't he deserve a bigger piece than even Messi?

25:23

I don't think Nike regrets

25:25

giving Jordan a piece of Air Jordan.

25:28

And I'm not sure Apple will regret giving

25:30

Messi a piece of incremental

25:33

money. The more interesting question to

25:35

me is whether bringing

25:37

Messi in is the best use

25:40

of that money,

25:41

right? Ultimately,

25:43

to me, what MLS has to do

25:46

is improve the quality of play

25:48

in the league. They've got to upgrade.

25:51

They're ultimately the only

25:54

major sport in the United States that

25:56

has to contend with the fact that there are

25:59

other.

25:59

leagues in the world that are better

26:02

than they are. There is nobody who plays American

26:04

tackle football better than the

26:06

NFL. There's nobody who plays basketball better

26:08

than the NBA. There's nobody that plays hockey

26:11

better than the NHL or baseball better

26:13

than the MLB. The MLS,

26:16

which has made astonishing progress,

26:18

however, has several leagues

26:20

around the world

26:22

who have better players and better teams than

26:24

they do. So the question is, is

26:26

bringing Messi in going to decrease

26:29

that Delta

26:30

or would it bringing 25 players

26:33

in

26:33

who are 24, 25, 26 years

26:36

old and have their career in front of them?

26:38

Would that have been a better expenditure

26:40

of money? So you make this

26:42

decision all the time and we made it as teams.

26:45

Do you sign a free agent or do you develop your own

26:47

players?

26:48

It's way better to develop your own

26:50

players, but you need a whole lot more patience. It's

26:53

a very, it feels good. It's like

26:55

a drug when you do a free agent because

26:57

you feel the immediate impact. But then

26:59

it goes away quickly. And I view Messi

27:02

to MLS as becoming a

27:04

drug addict because it's going to feel

27:06

really good right now. And Inter Miami has all

27:08

these new followers on Instagram

27:11

and there's all this excitement. The ticket

27:13

prices have skyrocketed. Every

27:15

ticket sold out. You can't watch

27:17

Messi play in the

27:18

US because every

27:21

Inter Miami game, both home and away, is completely

27:23

sold out. So you're going to have to go on the secondary

27:25

market and pay Taylor Swift

27:28

like prices.

27:29

But at the end of the day, that is not

27:31

a sustainable model to me.

27:33

So I was completely against the

27:35

Messi deal. It's

27:38

interesting. My first reaction was negative

27:40

and I've come to believe that it is probably

27:43

a positive financial deal.

27:45

There's

27:45

one flaw, my

27:48

friend, to your G,

27:51

buying a free agent is, feels

27:53

great.

27:54

In global

27:57

football, you have a unique

27:59

thing. happens, you don't have to

28:02

wait and develop your own players.

28:04

It's a world market and they are all

28:06

available. They're all available. You

28:09

could go tomorrow and buy, with

28:12

enough money, you could go tomorrow and take 25

28:14

players out of the Premier League and put them

28:17

in the MLS.

28:18

I thought the entire issue overseas

28:21

is that they all have academies. They all

28:24

get young players in and they're all

28:27

building their teams from within.

28:30

They are at the very

28:32

top of the league, or they're doing

28:34

it the middle of the league and the bottom of the league. But if you

28:36

do it the middle of the league and the bottom of the league, you're

28:39

developing that player to sell

28:41

to somebody else and make enough

28:43

money that you can buy six more players and

28:45

actually field a competitive team.

28:47

Why is that not a bad plan? I ran

28:50

a whole team for 18 years based on that plan.

28:52

Develop players and when they get expensive, trade them

28:54

or let them go and replace them

28:56

with players who are better,

28:58

younger, and cheaper. That's

29:02

a fine plan and you

29:05

executed it very well. Got criticized

29:08

every day,

29:09

crushed. Well, of course, because it's not

29:11

really the American way, right?

29:14

We're not developing players to send our favorite

29:16

players off to other teams. When

29:19

Brighton in

29:22

the Premier League has great players,

29:25

they end up with almost no choice

29:27

but to sell those players

29:29

to Man City

29:31

and Man United and Liverpool or Real

29:34

Madrid or Barcelona,

29:36

right? And that doesn't really

29:38

happen in the same

29:40

way in the US, right?

29:42

No, I'm saying it does happen

29:44

in the US. That's what low revenue teams

29:46

do. In a non-salary cap

29:49

league, although there's financial fair play overseas,

29:51

but in a non-salary cap league like baseball, that's

29:54

exactly what happens. And it's not, you're watching

29:56

it with Oakland. This week we saw the

29:58

reverse boycott. We saw what's going on. on

30:00

with the Oakland A's who have, you

30:02

know, are

30:04

an all-star team of players elsewhere,

30:07

though many teams do, but that is not

30:09

uncommon where teams have to churn.

30:12

If you're not the Yankees or the Dodgers, you're

30:14

churning players.

30:16

And it seems like MLS bringing in

30:18

Messi, their point was to

30:21

buy them legitimacy. And

30:23

I tried that to buy legitimacy by signing

30:25

a bunch of free agents and it just failed terribly.

30:28

And I'm just wondering at the end, when we look back on

30:30

this, do the LA Galaxy, MLS,

30:33

let me, I can say it a different way. The

30:35

Beckham deal 16 years ago,

30:38

did it accomplish what they thought it would

30:40

accomplish by bringing Beckham to MLS?

30:43

Well, it's a good question. It

30:45

may have partly just because Messi,

30:48

I mean, Beckham is still around, right? He's

30:50

now an owner. That's good for the league. I

30:52

suspect his being in inner Miami was

30:55

a factor, not the defining factor for

30:57

Messi going there so I

31:00

think it advanced the cause.

31:02

I just believe

31:04

they should be at the same time

31:07

looking not to buy

31:10

Ibrahimovic at the end of his career, Beckham

31:13

at the end of his career. It feels,

31:16

it may be a smart stunt, but it

31:18

feels like a stunt.

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33:03

There are leagues that are founded

33:06

as a stunt. I thought when

33:08

Dwayne Johnson took over the XFL that

33:10

it was a stunt. I didn't believe it. I did

33:12

a whole segment on nothing personal before you

33:14

start listening to it about rock

33:17

and his investment in the XFL and how

33:19

he had a chance to turn it around. It's

33:22

failed so often. I actually

33:25

do not believe in the XFL

33:27

in any way. And we got news

33:30

the other day that they

33:33

are losing money hand over fist.

33:35

Some reports up to $60 million in losses.

33:38

And

33:39

the XFL is claiming that

33:41

everything is great. You

33:44

don't have to worry.

33:45

And

33:46

are you your opinion of the XFL?

33:49

I assume is not a good one.

33:51

Um, I do not believe

33:53

that professional American

33:56

tackle football is going to work

33:58

in the spring.

33:59

Everybody believes it is so successful.

34:02

Let's do it year round.

34:05

Can you name one player on any of the

34:07

XFL or USFL

34:09

teams?

34:11

I cannot but I may be in the minority

34:13

but is it Chad Ocho Cinco?

34:16

He may be on one of the teams or I could be aging myself.

34:19

I've only heard of the rock. So Chad

34:21

Ocho Cinco, instead of taking

34:24

Social Security decided to keep playing

34:26

football in the spring football

34:28

league that should tell you about

34:30

the likelihood of success is that

34:33

Chad Ocho Cinco might

34:35

be in the league and you're not even sure Matt

34:38

Coker may be more informed than you are. Matt,

34:40

can you name a single player in the USFL

34:43

or the XFL? My guess is that

34:45

he absolutely cannot but he'll scream in

34:47

my ear. No, he absolutely cannot. Okay,

34:49

so he cannot.

34:50

Lindsay,

34:52

can you name a single player? Okay,

34:55

not a good sign. The only

34:57

good sign is that Ocho Cinco

34:59

is not in the XFL. He can confirm

35:02

that but not anybody. He

35:04

can't confirm anybody's name. But it's

35:07

a business and you know, the rock,

35:09

whether he invested his own money or not, he got investors

35:11

to buy it.

35:12

And they have a season and he's

35:15

trying to become more successful than McManathis. And

35:18

they're claiming there's going to be a second season, yet

35:20

they're firing a bunch of their employees. And

35:24

they're saying that they're going to make it a seasonal business.

35:27

I understand the It'll be

35:29

like people picking fruit. They'll only

35:31

work when the when the tree is ripe,

35:33

they'll bring them in. They seem to

35:36

me a good candidate to transition

35:38

to the PGA status

35:40

as a nonprofit. They don't

35:42

need to. They don't need to transition to nonprofit.

35:45

They're already there. They are not profitable.

35:49

But they're according to one

35:51

of the co owners said we're extremely

35:53

well capitalized for the long term. This

35:56

is not just an endeavor

35:57

that's going to fill up a portfolio

35:59

and One day we flip it and

36:01

we're out. Side note, parenthetical,

36:04

of course not because they'd flip it for a loss.

36:06

This is legacy. This is the

36:09

long game. Everybody who's ever

36:11

gone bankrupt has always said,

36:13

we're in it for the long term. And then they

36:15

stop, including the last iteration of the XFL.

36:18

I don't know how it survives unless a broadcaster

36:21

will bail them out and nobody has

36:23

stepped up so far to bail them out.

36:26

Would the NFL have an interest in bailing them out?

36:30

I don't understand why they

36:32

would, no.

36:33

Because they're not, this is the first time

36:35

they're not against it. They're trying to cooperate. They're

36:38

trying to make it work. Well,

36:42

I'm happy they're trying to cooperate. I

36:44

don't think they're contributing money to it.

36:48

They don't need it. There's always this rhetoric.

36:50

It's all, this will be the minor leagues. They have

36:52

minor leagues. It's called Alabama

36:55

and Georgia and USC and

36:57

Oregon. They have a great minor

36:59

league system and it costs them $0.

37:03

So I do not know why they would need

37:05

a spring football league. The spring, I

37:09

just, the concept is flawed and

37:12

it's irresistible because people love football

37:14

so much, but it's a flawed concept.

37:17

So the broadcasters, the networks could put an end

37:19

to it. If they stopped, if they gave

37:22

no platform, sponsors could

37:24

put an end to it, but they need hours.

37:27

Aren't you always looking for spring and summer

37:29

hours?

37:30

No, there's a lot of good

37:33

hours in spring. My

37:35

recollection is that's when the NBA

37:38

plays their playoffs. That's when

37:40

hockey plays its playoffs, baseball starts.

37:43

There's women's softball. There's the

37:45

men's basketball tournament. There's the masters in

37:47

the US Open. There's the French

37:49

Open, the Wimbledon. I

37:52

don't, the spring is not particularly

37:54

bereft of sports content

37:57

better than spring football.

38:00

What would be the reason that you would

38:02

not or would invest? Are you saying the only

38:04

reason you would not is that you don't believe in the

38:07

concept of spring football or you believe

38:09

the NFL is such a strong stronghold

38:12

on the football fan that there's no room

38:14

for them to like another league?

38:18

I think it is

38:20

a

38:21

flawed concept because

38:23

everybody who

38:25

can play in the NFL plays in the

38:27

NFL. So by definition, you have

38:29

a bunch of players who can't play in the

38:31

NFL

38:32

because they're not good enough. And there

38:34

are a bunch of players which we just prove that nobody

38:37

knows their names. And

38:39

so consequently, they're not gonna watch them play.

38:42

It's the same reason I believe

38:44

that three on three basketball is a flawed concept.

38:48

It just, you know, watered down

38:50

versions of great

38:52

sports leagues are not particularly attractive.

38:55

Nobody's looking for a second tennis

38:58

circuit, far as I know.

39:00

Then why did ESPN give them 20 million?

39:04

No

39:06

longer being employed there. I have no

39:08

insight into why

39:11

they would know. When

39:13

anybody ever came around, when I

39:16

was there talking about a spring football league, I

39:18

politely passed.

39:21

And since they moved on, they

39:24

have politely said, we'll dip our toe in. Is

39:26

it not unheard

39:27

of to think that Roger Goodell called up

39:30

Jimmy and said, hey, you're

39:32

gonna have to throw 20

39:34

toward the XFL? That seems

39:36

unlikely to me.

39:38

So as part of the new deal with

39:40

the NFL, the new broadcasting deal,

39:43

it's out of nowhere that the NFL is cooperating

39:45

with the XFL and that the XFL got this $20

39:47

million deal from ESPN when ESPN

39:50

has gotten a few things from the

39:53

NFL, including its own

39:55

game, its own ESPN Plus

39:57

game, an exclusive window, some

39:59

flex. seen totally unrelated in your

40:01

mind? I

40:04

think they are mostly unrelated. I

40:06

don't think the NFL has enough interest

40:08

to call in a favor

40:10

whether or not somebody thought, gee,

40:12

this will make the NFL, I don't even think anybody's

40:15

speculating this will make the NFL happy.

40:17

If you ask the NFL if they'd take $20

40:19

million less, if you helped fund

40:22

the spring football league, you think they'd say

40:24

yes?

40:25

Well they did.

40:27

In theory, because ESPN allocated $20

40:29

million to it and they wouldn't have done it without the

40:31

NFL knowing.

40:33

Do you feel this is a great question?

40:36

Would you feel that you would not

40:38

talk to the NFL? You're their

40:40

partner and you would not talk

40:43

to your partner about an investment you would

40:45

make with a potential competitor.

40:47

Yes.

40:48

If I knew that the NFL

40:51

was opposed to the league, I

40:53

would probably decide that it's

40:57

since it's not likely to work, it's not worth

40:59

my taking a flower on that. Though

41:02

I never called them when I was

41:04

approached about spring football and said, what do you

41:06

think? Should I do this or not? And they

41:08

never called me.

41:10

And my guess would be though, I don't

41:12

know that they did not call anybody

41:15

at ESPN or Fox or I think

41:18

these guys are all hoping that lightning

41:20

strikes. By the way, everybody takes

41:22

a call if Dwayne Johnson,

41:25

I'd take a call. If he called me, I'd talk to

41:27

him.

41:28

So they take the call,

41:30

they get excited. They think that maybe it's going

41:32

to work this time because a bunch

41:35

of celebrities are involved and

41:38

they decide to spend $20 million. I

41:40

don't understand. To tell you the truth, I

41:43

don't understand why they spent $20 million on it. I'd

41:45

be afraid to tell Dwayne Johnson the truth

41:47

about what I thought about the XFL.

41:50

Well, we already have, but you just, we're assuming

41:52

that he's not going to show up at our doors.

41:54

Well, I'm assuming a whole lot of people are going

41:57

to show up at my door after this show. So that's

41:59

a working assumption.

41:59

in general, but it's, you know,

42:02

the rock comes in with a suit and tie and I'm tempted

42:04

to say, hell yeah, the XFL

42:06

is great, let me just make sure Roger's good.

42:09

So that's why I would be calling Roger.

42:11

Good doubt. Generally, everything

42:13

that Dwayne Johnson has done, other

42:16

than this has worked. If he came

42:18

in and asked me if I'd give him $20 million

42:20

for a movie, the

42:23

answer would be, hell yes, I'll definitely take that.

42:26

He came in and said, do you want to put on,

42:29

put on spring football games? I would say

42:31

politely, Mr. Johnson, I'm going to

42:34

decline. What if I told you that you had a

42:36

better chance of getting your money back from

42:38

XFL than you would from a movie

42:41

in general, as a general matter? Well,

42:44

I'm not talking about a movie. I'm talking about

42:46

a Dwayne Johnson movie. Even a Dwayne Johnson movie.

42:48

Last time I checked, they all make at least $20 million

42:51

the first day.

42:52

So

42:53

yeah, but that's gross and you

42:55

know the difference. So these these movie

42:58

channels, well,

43:00

we could talk about

43:02

the accounting that's used by

43:05

studios. I would love to do a show

43:07

about how studios do accounting

43:09

and how they deal with when

43:12

people have a point or profit

43:14

sharing on how you can easily,

43:16

as I've done in business, make

43:19

a company not profitable with

43:21

sleight of hand that is not illegal, but

43:24

very easy to do.

43:26

So I think it's pretty easy if Dwayne Johnson

43:28

has a piece of a movie to show that it's

43:30

not profitable. I just think it's a,

43:32

there's a reason. I'm gonna, I'm gonna go on record, John,

43:34

and tell you that

43:35

the