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per twelve ounces. This

1:09

is the Dunlever partial with the

1:11

Stuttgart podcast.

1:18

Very rare, Roy, that the entire

1:21

room clearly and obviously turns on

1:23

you in a way that's howling and

1:25

accusatory and that you're being punished

1:28

by this and you're also smiling

1:30

through

1:30

it, which is the part that I'm not

1:32

used to you smiling in any form

1:34

around here. That's the part that

1:37

I I tend

1:37

to follow if there's a giant smile on

1:40

Roy's face. It's like the rare

1:42

light that people search for in religion

1:44

to go find wait a

1:46

minute. The the light has even reached

1:48

Roy.

1:49

No.

1:49

No. No. It's a smell of why is this happening?

1:51

Why are you people doing this to me? It's a it's

1:53

a it's a it's a compute.

1:55

Wow. God. Point damage.

1:57

What do you mean? Point damage.

1:59

What does Dan mean? You

2:01

maybe you are, what they accuse

2:03

you of being to

2:06

hate people.

2:07

Well, this is not making things any

2:09

better.

2:10

All people. Yes. It's not discriminatory.

2:12

That's right.

2:12

It means

2:13

all of you all of humanity. You just

2:15

like animals.

2:16

Yeah. I hate people equally.

2:18

I have no Roy for a long time now,

2:20

and I can verify and I will back him

2:22

up.

2:22

He hates people.

2:24

The only person he likes is Bill Lawrence, to be

2:26

honest, you

2:26

Oh,

2:26

yeah. That's a good man. That's a good man. Lord.

2:29

I enjoy that man. I mean, once a week, Royce.

2:31

Like, can we get Bill Lord on it? It's like, I don't know what

2:33

to tell Lasso again. Jesus. It's

2:35

drinking.

2:36

New season coming out of ten last bit.

2:38

A lot of theories about the trailer. It was very

2:40

exciting.

2:40

Fat Albert. What just happened there with

2:44

New season ten last night. No. You're

2:46

trying to bring back fat Albert's to god's

2:49

trying to bring back ed McMan.

2:52

Not a bad fat,

2:53

Albert. Thank you. Billy

2:55

and Jess, I noticed our group is

2:57

not great at meetings,

3:00

I would say. And you guys

3:03

were howling, and would

3:05

say distracted from whatever it is that was

3:07

being talked about because something was happening

3:09

on Stugotz his phone that

3:12

both of you were shouting about to

3:14

each other, interrupting whatever it is that

3:16

we were meeting

3:17

about. What was happening on Stuttgart's

3:19

phone? Well, so we we were in a meeting before

3:21

the show just, you know, human the shit as

3:23

they say. And we're kinda talking about what we're gonna

3:25

do today, and then Lewis noticed something on Stuttgart

3:27

his phone, and then he, like, elbowed me.

3:29

And he's, like, why does he have that on his phone? And then I

3:31

looked at it. was, like, that's odd. And then

3:33

Jeff's side. And then we were kinda talking about,

3:36

like, So guys had a contact open

3:38

on his phone. And he was talking

3:40

and and participating somewhat in the meeting

3:42

and also just talking to Whittier, whoever was next to

3:44

him. And he's just kinda swinging his his

3:47

phone around, like, a basically, with his fingers

3:49

there to a point where it's like he's

3:51

going to accidentally hit

3:53

one of these buttons on his phone buttons.

3:55

But he's on his phone. And

3:57

then what ended up happening is he

3:59

FaceTime Todd

4:00

McShea. Mhmm. I looked at his phone and

4:02

I saw myself looking back, and I'm like, is your dad's

4:05

taking a face and selfie? And then I was like,

4:07

oh, no. He's FaceTiming, Todd McShea.

4:10

In our meeting.

4:11

Not by accident. It

4:12

was by accident. You didn't intend to face heights.

4:14

He's not the combine. I check in with him

4:17

every morning. I get hand sized. I

4:19

wanna see how bright, young, looks. Todd

4:21

usually answers. He was busy this morning.

4:23

I mean -- I only know. -- the regular thing we've been doing

4:25

it for

4:25

years. Only knew it was a combined week because

4:27

I went on Instagram the other

4:29

night and was looking through the stories. And there

4:31

were, like, five in a row from cocktail from that

4:33

stupid steakhouse in

4:34

it. St. Elmo's. Oh, it's like Yes. It's the

4:36

only place. Predictable

4:38

media car in the world. Just going to get shrimp

4:40

cocktail the

4:41

most. Why? Why isn't there a second restaurant

4:43

in Indianapolis?

4:45

It's Saint Helmo's. Did they get another one?

4:47

It's it's host to the com combined. They

4:49

must have such a giant week this

4:52

week, and it's to measure that,

4:54

oh, no. Bryce Young is five, ten and a half.

4:56

What are we gonna do?

4:57

Mina really screwed him, like,

5:00

really screwed him. The picture that they put

5:02

up next to each other, that everyone's like,

5:04

oh, Meana's either a giant

5:06

or he's not that tall. Should we draft

5:08

him? And then she had to go did you guys not see this? Yes.

5:10

She had to go on, like, an apology tour. Like, no. I was wearing

5:12

heels that were, like, really high that

5:13

day. That was a strange one.

5:15

Bryce Young is at the epicenter,

5:18

and Amin can speak to this stuff because he

5:20

certainly used to the idea

5:22

of measuring

5:23

looking small next to a giant person.

5:27

That too. Of measuring athleticism

5:30

and measuring size of people to assess

5:32

the value. How was the poop? Oh, it

5:35

was on fire. At

5:38

least five hundred degrees coming out. It

5:40

could start your day now. mean, it's

5:42

just I'm trying to eat bacon over here,

5:44

man. Don't do this to

5:45

me. Okay. Well, he did it. I didn't do it. I

5:47

I wish you hadn't. Stuttgart's gonna sit outside.

5:49

Why? Stuttgart's gonna sit outside? Get out. III

5:52

just go it up by teammates.

5:54

No, man. You do didn't care about your

5:56

teammate. Don't file. Really?

6:00

you you you check-in on the bowel

6:02

movements of a mean regularly because you

6:04

care about your teammate. How was the poop

6:06

is something you were trying to contribute as

6:08

Care good

6:09

out. Just get out.

6:10

It's a regular thing. You know? Just

6:12

like me and Michelle. Yeah. Just like you and Michelle.

6:15

Get out. Thank you. Combined with me. How was

6:17

the poop? Is not helpful

6:19

around

6:19

here. I wanted to bring in a mean and his expertise

6:22

on measuring talent and you

6:24

you How was

6:25

the poop?

6:26

will report that from what I hear, it was

6:28

a two fire emoji.

6:30

Bright, you go sit with him. You go sit with

6:32

him. You wanted to

6:33

anyway.

6:33

You've been wanting to sit you god here. Go make god

6:35

bless football while you're

6:36

out there. Take the whole thing and

6:37

they talk about each

6:38

other. They send him out. Five ten and a half

6:40

is what Bryce Young is measured at

6:43

and quarterback size is

6:46

now changing. Right? It's

6:48

been changing for a couple of years. And when I hear

6:50

my quarterback is

6:51

five, ten and a half, I get scared. Well,

6:53

So there was the trend that you had the number

6:56

one picks of Batard and of

6:58

Kyler Murray, and that was the NFL signaling.

7:00

We're we're no longer doing it like you gotta be

7:03

six foot six in a good pocket passer. We're

7:05

gonna do this differently. But then Russell

7:07

Wilson's career went off a cliff Tyler

7:09

Murray basically had the yips in playoff

7:11

game and it turned out that Baker Mayfield was

7:13

Batard. And so we we might be back to

7:15

square one and some teams might

7:18

want someone like Will Levies who has

7:20

a more traditional quarterback body

7:22

as opposed to

7:24

Bryce Young who's five, ten and a half. So

7:26

this is one of my favorite things. In the two

7:28

thousand and three NBA draft, right,

7:30

one with LeBron, Carmel Anthony Dwayne

7:33

Wade -- Arco. Darko

7:35

Chris Bosch. Do you know who tested as

7:37

either the best or second best athlete in

7:39

that draft? Luke Jackson.

7:42

Do you guys remember Luke Jackson? I do. Luke

7:44

Jackson played for Oregon. He played with Luke Ritten

7:46

hour. Is it two Luke two live whatever two

7:48

Luke Crew or whatever they used to call them. Right? And

7:50

then Luke Jackson when you put

7:52

him in a combined scenario,

7:55

all the things that they tested for,

7:58

he was an incredible athlete. There

8:01

was one simple problem.

8:03

When you put a basketball in his hands and put

8:05

him on the court, he wasn't a good athlete.

8:07

So The combine does not

8:10

test how athletic

8:12

you are in a game. It

8:15

tests how athletic you are in

8:17

a combined setting in the same way that standardized

8:20

tests don't test how smart you

8:22

are, the tests, how good you are taking standardized

8:24

tests. So that's the big issue

8:27

is you look at a guy and you you can

8:29

have all of these desirable

8:31

measurements. And then you put him

8:33

in a game and it doesn't Batard. Or the opposite,

8:35

you look at guy and his measurements

8:38

aren't that great. But you put him

8:40

in a game and he's incredible. Tom

8:42

Brady, I mean, we've seen the pictures

8:44

of him at the

8:45

combine. That does not mean it

8:46

too much. It's enough.

8:47

I get it. It was a

8:48

little chubby, the the combination. But

8:50

think but think about that, Witty. Like, think

8:52

about the message. The message is this was

8:54

this dude trying to be in

8:56

the best shape of his life. Right? When the combat,

8:59

whatever shape you all and show up in the combat, that's

9:01

not who you really are. That's you've been working

9:03

out for eight weeks or whatever. With a trainer,

9:05

with a dietitian, and all this stuff. And then

9:07

you show up and you look like

9:09

that. What do you look like six weeks earlier? It was

9:11

my question. Because this was

9:13

him getting into shape for physical

9:15

condition

9:15

in time

9:15

frame. Right. But but I mean, isn't all

9:18

this stuff that we're talking about? Like, The

9:20

short quarterback was

9:21

in, and now it's back out. And we're back to

9:23

Josh Allen

9:24

Times who

9:24

were freak out. Like, we don't know what we're doing.

9:26

Yeah. But so it's just their trends

9:29

and then they go and then they come and then they go and

9:31

then they come in in in basketball. It's the same

9:33

thing. It's just sometimes you pick great athletes and sometimes

9:35

we're going up the stats of what you did in college. Because

9:37

the reality is it has nothing that there's

9:40

not a we want heuristic. Right? We want,

9:42

like, a stencil that we can look through and, like,

9:44

yeah. He's good. Oh, no. That guy is kind

9:46

of obscured. He's not good. And

9:48

the reality is, the only constant is,

9:50

is he a great player? That's the constant.

9:53

Right? What what is what is Josh Allen

9:55

and Russell Wilson and Tom

9:58

Brady and Patrick Mahomes and

10:02

and Rogers all have in

10:03

common. They're great quarterbacks. Yes.

10:05

But none none none of what they also

10:07

have in common though is that none of them are five, ten

10:10

and a half. What they also

10:11

have is Wilson's

10:12

Least your but not five, ten and a half.

10:15

Like, five like, short short

10:17

standing next to MENA who is slight,

10:19

I do think think that five, ten and a half,

10:22

the official measurement, because they went out of their way

10:24

to make

10:24

it. He's a

10:25

six footer. That should

10:26

be a new combine measurement. How tall

10:27

do you look next to me?

10:29

I like I like that. Right. Right. Right. When

10:32

they take the picture, it's like me and her can you stand

10:34

right to left of them right there? No.

10:36

No. You're not good enough kid. Get out of here.

10:38

Going during the next effort. But but Dan, if he

10:40

can play, he can

10:41

play. Right. Understood. But

10:43

five, ten and a half is something that when

10:45

they're eating those shrimp cocktail at the scouting

10:48

combine, they're all worried about five ten and

10:50

a half at my

10:50

quarterback,

10:51

Brazilian almos. Right? Isn't that the name of the scouting

10:53

also? Mhmm. Rosa

10:55

Wilson here. Rosa Wilson came in at five

10:57

eleven -- Yay. -- combine Too fire. Five

10:59

eleven at the combine for Rosa

11:00

Wilson. So so it's not far away.

11:03

Right? So so and by

11:05

the way, it's like even when we look at Kylo Murray,

11:07

is Kylo Murray was he disappointing

11:10

this year because he was too small. If he was six three,

11:12

he would go, oh, he would've been killing. No. It's

11:14

stuff that has nothing to do with his

11:16

side. It's fun.

11:16

I mean, like There

11:17

are bad advances. There are issues with

11:19

the side. I also think that there there's a longevity

11:22

question now because -- Sure.

11:24

-- like like Russell Wilson just fell off a cliff

11:26

at thirty

11:27

1. Sure. You're going I mean, a lot

11:29

of most franchise quarterbacks go to thirty seven,

11:31

thirty eight.

11:31

How tall is Drew Breeze? Drew Breeze. Drew Breeze.

11:34

Drew sixty. Feet or six miles But he was also

11:36

but he he also fell in the draft because

11:38

he was too short,

11:40

and the the conversation that I wanted

11:42

to have around this because It's actually

11:45

something that's happening in circles as

11:47

the information guys say no, the bears

11:49

aren't gonna trade the pick. JUST

11:51

IN FEELDS, I WORRY ABOUT HIS DURBILLITY

11:54

AT THE POSITION BECAUSE OF HOW HE

11:56

PLAYS. I CAN'T BECAUSE OF HOW HE PLAYS. THEY

11:58

HAVE THE WORST OFFENSIVE LINE IN

12:00

football. But just 1 of the

12:01

worst.

12:02

But that forces him to run. That's what Dan said.

12:04

No. It doesn't just

12:05

force him. It doesn't mean

12:06

that it's because he how he plays.

12:07

The the reason

12:08

I worked, he asked to play a certain role.

12:10

But but he was playing more physical. Hold

12:12

on. Take advantage

12:13

of his skill set by running him sixteen times a game.

12:15

He is playing the most physical

12:17

style of football like a running

12:20

back and his lower body weighs about

12:22

what all of Bryce Young weighs. Bryke's

12:25

young is slight compared to Justin

12:27

Fields. I'm not even talking about

12:30

Justin Fields. Measurements. I'm talking about

12:32

what that J. L. Hertz has one of the best

12:34

squats in the league because all of a sudden, one

12:36

of the things they're valuing is quarterbacks

12:38

who have sturdy, sturdy,

12:41

lower bodies because they can take more of a

12:43

beating. Justin Fields is is

12:45

very strong. He's a great shape. Billy and

12:47

I sat next to them at the Super Bowl, surprisingly

12:50

big. But I think it means point, it's a good 1,

12:52

and it's a fair one. That great quarterbacks

12:55

come in all different shapes and sizes. If you

12:57

could play, you can play. Like, the fact

12:59

that we're still doing five, ten and

13:01

a half for the hand sized Cody Pigott

13:03

was

13:03

fine. The times he was Kenny,

13:05

that's a fine.

13:06

Oh, I'm sorry.

13:06

Kenny picket, that is a fine. You

13:09

know, he was fine. In the times that he

13:11

that he had opportunities even with the

13:13

small

13:13

fans.

13:14

Lam Like pretty good.

13:15

He was just okay. He was fine.

13:17

I know. Batard, it's not to say that Buncho

13:20

can't be good because he's five, ten, and a half.

13:22

It's absurd.

13:23

Well, Lamar Jackson also was another one. People

13:25

thought was too slight and too he was 61I

13:27

know. He's a

13:28

But he got stronger in the car. He did.

13:30

But it's not like as a rookie, he was like, oh, he's

13:32

so overwhelmed by by the sides of

13:34

everybody. He's Look,

13:37

greatness is so hard to

13:39

pin the Roy, you're a hockey

13:41

guy. Right? So Wayne Gretzky,

13:43

does he have the profile of a great

13:45

one? Does he have the profile

13:48

physically of great hockey player?

13:50

For

13:50

that sport. Yeah. Especially back then in the eighties.

13:52

Yeah. Definitely. I thought the whole thing was you small.

13:54

Like, he's a tiny guy and he's not like

13:56

Lemieux and and these other guys were a more

13:59

classically chiseled.

14:00

Well, it's a different role. Mary Lemieux

14:03

is more of a power forward than when Gretzky

14:05

was good. Gretzky was a

14:06

playmaker. What

14:07

about Sid the Kid? I'm

14:09

I'm here for a new weekly segment. Amin

14:11

learns the basics about another sport.

14:13

Hey, man.

14:14

I mean, I mean, those grasping for cops and

14:16

other sports. I'm not look. It's hey. Here's

14:18

the reality. Everyone here lives. I'm walking

14:20

sports. So that means I'm an expert in every sports,

14:23

the impersonation. But it's not an impersonation. It's

14:25

not an impersonation. It's not an impersonation. It's

14:27

a boy. Thank you for

14:28

holding. Shit. Personage. Okay. And

14:30

alright. Now you go to the penalty box. No. No. No.

14:35

Okay. No. Oh.

14:38

Damn. What was the point about Justin Fields?

14:40

I don't know. We were trying to make Well, I mean, I mean,

14:44

you're you're saying that, like, well, The

14:46

the key to fighting good athletes is figure out

14:48

if they're good

14:48

athletes.

14:49

No. I think it's I'm not saying I'm saying

14:51

what they're trying to do with combine measurements

14:53

and all this stuff is Well, what is

14:55

the formula for finding a good quarterback?

14:58

And it seems pretty clear that the answer is

15:00

that there isn't 1. Yeah. And so we're all just kinda

15:02

guessing. No. But my point is this. Right?

15:04

The the the two

15:06

things that seem to be the

15:09

biggest, right, is the

15:11

talent, right, just being able to throw

15:13

and and all that stuff. Right? And then the

15:17

mentality. Right? Is this person

15:19

focused? Is they are they good leader? Right?

15:22

The things we're measuring for don't measure

15:24

for eighty percent or ninety

15:26

percent of that. So what we're trying to do is

15:28

we're trying to find it's like people who

15:30

who -- You can't measure someone's

15:32

hard. It wasn't us. yeah. That's one way to put us

15:34

through guys

15:34

but intangibles. But It's not even

15:37

we can't measure someone's heart. What's

15:39

happening is people say, well, if I can

15:41

measure all these other things, that'll

15:43

be enough. And it's not. Right? It's

15:45

it's oh, his hand size, his

15:47

height, his weight, how much he Oh,

15:50

none of that stuff is actually relevant.

15:52

Right? The relevance is in the way you

15:54

play and also how seriously you take

15:56

it. And so we look through

15:59

all the quarterbacks and that's pretty much

16:01

the common thread. It's not a specific

16:02

size. It's not a specific hand size. It's not

16:05

a a vertical leap. It's not a

16:07

little of those things. It's Can he play?

16:09

And is he serious about this shit? The

16:11

other thing too that the combine doesn't do,

16:13

or quarterbacks don't do in the

16:14

comments, throw. Right? They throw at pro days. They don't throw

16:16

at the combine. So The one thing I wanna do is

16:18

see if my quarterback can throw a thirty five yard

16:21

out

16:21

route. Like, that's the one

16:22

thing that those

16:23

produce are designed to showcase. Correct. The

16:25

player's skills.

16:26

Correct. But they don't receive through the combine,

16:28

though, guys. Yeah. Like, there's a reason why they

16:29

don't throw the because because the the

16:31

whole the whole thing, though, they cut

16:33

off very abruptly

16:34

there. Oh.

16:35

Shut up, Tony.

16:36

That's part of that's part of the game I have back here.

16:38

So

16:38

It's all good. Wait till we get to the new studio.

16:41

Right? That's I feel like that's it's a

16:43

fake Carrotty Dangle in front of his way through the

16:45

new studio. Everything will be great. Twenty

16:47

twenty six. Exactly. But

16:49

so but to your point, Tony, like,

16:52

watch a guy throw an out route on Pro Day, but

16:54

there's no pressure. Right? There's no

16:57

kind of actual stakes there. Right? So

16:59

you say, well, but he did it in college.

17:01

But he did it against a certain level

17:04

of competition. Get to the NFL. The competition

17:06

is tougher. It's faster. It's quicker. It's smarter.

17:08

Right? That's where that other

17:11

intangible stuff about, like, does he learn?

17:13

Right? Does he retain information? Does

17:16

he adapt?

17:17

All of those things become even more important.

17:19

But again, none of those things are getting measured at

17:21

the combine. But with having gone

17:23

through scouting processes and brought players in

17:25

for workouts and stuff like that when you were Phoenix. Mhmm.

17:28

What's the attempt to even try to figure

17:30

out those things? Do do you feel like there

17:32

is ever a moment where you guys hit on that where it's

17:34

like, oh, we we noticed this about a player and it turned

17:36

out that player was good. So alright. So when

17:39

we brought guys in and and it's different

17:41

now because now the the move is everyone

17:43

just goes to these the central combine

17:45

and do all the training, all the

17:47

measurements and stuff. But for instance, the

17:49

NBA combined, they used to measure bench

17:51

press. Right? And that was the famous thing was,

17:54

oh, Duran couldn't even benchmark 1. But

17:56

we're like, at what point in an NBA

17:58

game are you ever doing this? Most you're never

18:00

doing this. Right? So our

18:03

measure of kind of like upper body strength

18:05

and stuff was all kind of weird

18:07

calisthenic things. So you

18:09

you had your hand spread across two lines

18:12

and you have to touch each hand.

18:14

Go like this a certain number of times in a

18:16

certain amount of amount of time. Right?

18:19

We had all of these things. And then all that did

18:21

was tell us how far you

18:23

were from actualizing your

18:25

maximum capacity. Right? So it

18:27

wasn't if you scored bad in these things,

18:29

it doesn't mean, like, oh, you're undraftible. And

18:31

nor it meant more like, oh, wow. There's room for

18:33

improvement as opposed to other prospects come in,

18:36

and did everything so well. It's like

18:38

there's nothing we can do physically

18:40

to help him. He's as physically peak as

18:42

he's ever gonna get. Right? But

18:45

in terms of our drills, our

18:47

drills were all made to mimic kind

18:49

of decision making

18:51

things. So we're playing three

18:53

on three we're gonna go pick and roll

18:55

and this is what we're doing. We're sagging on

18:57

every pick and roll. Doesn't matter what

18:59

happens. I wanna see you

19:02

run it like that. Then we're saying

19:03

problem solve the sacrifice. Exactly. Yeah.

19:05

Now we're blitzing. Now we're, you know, you're

19:08

you're telling them what to do and then seeing if they

19:10

can execute it. So there's a lot of stuff to

19:12

see, like, how hard is it for you or how

19:14

easy is it for you to adapt to

19:16

different instructions and be able to execute?

19:18

Those are the things that we looked at. But

19:20

ultimately, at the end of the day, what

19:23

you did in the combine? What you did in

19:25

a workout? Was such

19:27

a smaller portion of the thing because

19:29

it did you had a resume, whether you are one

19:31

and done or you played three years, whatever. We

19:33

had a resume of you playing

19:35

from whenever you first came on scene in high

19:38

school, all the way through your whatever

19:40

your collegiate exploits were. We

19:42

knew what you did. We knew how you did against

19:44

blitzes, how you did against SAGS, how you did

19:46

against hedges and all that stuff. We knew us

19:48

because we watched you. Watch you do it.

19:50

And then on top of that, The big

19:52

the biggest part of any scouting

19:54

operation is intel. Who

19:57

are you as a person? Because that's a part any

19:59

asshole can watch it on TV. And

20:01

I'm like, oh, yeah. He's pretty good. Like, we can all

20:03

do that. But it takes

20:05

someone going and digging

20:08

into your past and coming up

20:10

with, for instance, a great example,

20:12

Royce White. Royce White was

20:14

you wanna

20:14

get on planes? Was

20:15

doing. Right. They didn't

20:16

wanna get on play. That was the public thing.

20:18

Right? Anxiety and didn't get on play.

20:20

If people focus on what? How's you? Is you gonna

20:22

just blast from place to place? I

20:25

was the guy who did the deep deep

20:27

dive on on Royce White. I was like,

20:29

the last thing I did. And I

20:32

discovered, well, yeah,

20:34

he doesn't like it, but he

20:37

pops a pill and he sleeps on. Like, it's not an

20:39

issue. Right? His anxiety

20:41

does manifest itself in different ways.

20:44

The problem is also, he has

20:46

the behavior of an asshole. So

20:48

and he's smart. So he knows

20:50

how to use his very real condition

20:53

to his advantage when he doesn't wanna do something.

20:56

Nobody had this. The sun's had them,

20:58

like, tenth on their draft board. I was, like,

21:00

absolutely not. I my thing was,

21:02

like, absolutely not. He's

21:04

a non draftable. Because of

21:06

all these issues. And it's not because of the

21:08

anxiety. It's not of of because of his

21:10

condition. It's because of who he what.

21:13

And I found that out because I talked to people

21:15

who weren't on the staff at Iowa State.

21:18

Right? I talked to people from

21:20

his asked and all that and I did the the deep

21:22

the deep dive to find these things.

21:25

And guess what? Guiding that much of a

21:27

career and it wasn't because he couldn't get on a plane.

21:29

It was because all of those things, coupled

21:32

with I thought as a player, he was good,

21:34

he wasn't this he wasn't LeBron for

21:36

us to take a chance like that. So

21:38

that's what the combine and and drafting is

21:41

about. It's not about, like, oh, touch

21:43

that Who cares? That that's that

21:45

rarely ever becomes a

21:48

make or break on a guy being

21:50

successful. Well, Dion Sanders, he

21:53

spoke

21:53

your entire penalty, by the way. I mean,

21:55

who did talk. He was great. He talked

21:57

he talked a lot

21:58

about a few days. I I wanted his expertise

22:01

on these things, not how his shit

22:03

was. It's the reason that I re originally

22:05

sent you to the penalty

22:07

box. But can you play the sound of

22:09

Dion Sanders? This is on Rich

22:12

Eisen's

22:13

show. What's wrong, Jessica?

22:15

I mean, you're just disgusted by all of it. Right? It's

22:17

unnecessary. All of it.

22:19

Like, Oh, you're grossed out. Like, oh,

22:21

you're stupid. So I gave him that look That

22:24

was a bad one. No. No. No.

22:28

No. No. No. No. Gone too far.

22:30

Play Dion Sanders talking to Rich

22:32

Eisen on how you prototype, how

22:35

he figures out who to draft or who

22:37

to recruit at what position?

22:39

Rebacs are different. Yeah. We

22:41

want mother father, you know, dual

22:43

parent. Mhmm. We want that kid to be three, five,

22:45

coming up because he gotta be smart -- Mhmm. --

22:47

not bad decisions off the field at

22:49

all -- Mhmm. -- because he has to be a leader

22:51

of men. It's so many different attributes and

22:54

what we look for.

22:55

Physical, I mean, office of Lima, deepest of Lima

22:57

totally opposite. You know

22:58

what I mean? Single mama. Trying

23:02

to get it. He's on

23:04

free lunch. I mean, like I

23:07

mean, I'm talking about just trying

23:09

to make

23:10

it. He's trying to rescue mama. Like

23:12

mama barely made the flight. He's talking

23:14

about hunger, how you measure hunger.

23:17

He's doing some stereotyping by

23:20

position. I've often heard the offensive line

23:22

and the guy that you want at offensive

23:24

line is the guy who can repair

23:26

the refrigerator. The guy you want on defensive

23:28

line is the guy who could either destroy it

23:30

or eat it. That this is

23:33

something that is said through football

23:36

channels, but William Barry. But now

23:38

now he is talking, thank you, Now

23:42

he's talking about whether what

23:44

kind of patterning or upbringing a

23:46

kid has. Mhmm. And that From there,

23:48

you're not far from Jeff Ireland feeling

23:50

comfortable asking Des Bryant whether his mother's

23:53

a prostitute or not.

23:54

Here's my favorite part. If there

23:56

was an amazing quarterback prospect

23:59

who came from a single parent household, Dion's

24:02

not saying no, no, not for me.

24:04

You gotta come back with mom and dad get back

24:06

together. We're at A34.

24:09

Right. Like, that that's that's the that's

24:11

the beauty of any sort of these

24:14

heuristics. Right? Is that

24:16

you can say all that until someone

24:18

comes and fits all criteria

24:21

that actually matters. Can he play?

24:23

And is he serious about this shit? That's

24:26

what matters. Single parent, double parent

24:28

no. No. That matters. No. That matters. I

24:31

I remember one time I tried to do like a

24:33

like a study. Like I said, every

24:35

great player or almost

24:38

all the great players in NBA history, all

24:40

had siblings. Why? What does

24:42

that mean? Right? LeBron is outlier and that he's

24:44

like an only child. And that Batard doesn't

24:47

happen. Great players who are only children,

24:49

almost never happens. You think of every

24:51

biggest name players right now. Name them.

24:54

Stafford has siblings. Kobe had

24:56

siblings. Shaq had siblings. Right?

24:58

Jordan had siblings. Magic had

25:00

siblings. But Bert, siblings. Like,

25:02

the only child thing does

25:04

not exist in our sport. What

25:07

does that mean? And then I realized

25:09

it doesn't matter.

25:11

It's it's not because they had siblings, it's

25:13

because they could play. You were trying to measure it

25:15

though? You thought the only child might be more selfish.

25:17

I don't know. I was I didn't was just

25:19

something I realized, like, wait a second. Why

25:22

is it all the great

25:23

players? Have siblings.

25:26

We're all the great only children. Well,

25:27

isn't it statistically more likely

25:29

to have siblings than not in this country?

25:32

Sure. But it's way, way,

25:34

like, that number is skewed in the NBA,

25:36

right, where it's even

25:39

greater. It's

25:40

Lebron the only only child in the

25:42

NBA?

25:42

No. I'm not saying that. I'm not just saying that. I mean, how many

25:44

I'm now I'm curious. I wouldn't go down this

25:46

rabbit hole with you. Right. How many only children

25:49

are

25:49

there? I

25:49

don't I don't wanna figure this out. don't know what that

25:51

means. I wish none of us had ever seen this rabbit,

25:53

and none of us had seen this whole and none

25:56

of us had been dragged into it.

25:57

Don't don't don't don't diminish the point. The point

25:59

isn't only children, not only children. The

26:01

the point is when you start looking

26:04

for ridiculous tangential things,

26:07

to explain the actual

26:09

thing that we all know. He

26:11

can play any serious about this shit.

26:13

That's all that matters. Hand

26:15

size vertical, but

26:18

siblings, only child, single parent,

26:20

all of that is meaningless.

26:22

Grant Hill credits his Hall of Fame

26:25

NBA career to growing up as an

26:26

only child. There you go. Alright.

26:29

That's two. Jessica

26:32

would like to know them

26:32

all. No. I I would. Honestly,

26:35

I'm I'm very curious now. But the

26:37

I think the thing Dion saying is

26:39

more damaging than that because it's like perpetuating

26:41

stereotypes about children that come from

26:43

single parent homes. And

26:45

it's weird to hear rich Johnson's producers

26:48

all laughing along with it and, like, thinking

26:50

it's really funny because to me, it's

26:52

just kind of gross. Like, I I didn't

26:54

enjoy listening to

26:55

that. AT ALL. IT'S TOO SIMPLISISTIC

26:58

AND IT DOESN'T END

27:00

UP MATTERING NO MATTER HOW MUCH DIAN THINKS

27:02

HE KNOWS ABOUT THE PSYCHOLOGY OF FOOTBALL

27:05

He's getting players who

27:08

can really play. Guys

27:10

who by any of the measurements anybody

27:12

who was coaching anybody would

27:14

take all of

27:15

them. No matter what

27:18

they're coming from. The And and and also

27:20

sort of, like, to Jess's point, just sort of

27:22

dead like, Okay. So if I'm a quarterback,

27:24

I gotta change position because my

27:26

upbringing is the reason why I can't play this

27:28

position. It's just it's ridiculous.

27:30

And honestly, out of the mouth of any other coach,

27:32

it would just be it wouldn't be met with a

27:35

lot more skepticism.

27:36

That that's all. And and and be honest

27:38

about it. If it came out of the mouth of a white coach,

27:40

it would be treated as

27:41

racist. It would be treated as questionable

27:44

beyond beyond

27:46

what it is

27:47

that we're talking about. Korean only child.

27:51

Three.

27:52

I don't wanna do this the rest of the show.

27:56

What? I think it's fun. It's not a

27:58

great rabbit home. Only children

28:01

and at the end of it, we've counted only children

28:03

and it doesn't mean anything according to a mean

28:05

to know who are the only children. Exactly.

28:08

So it's a worthless exercise. The

28:11

is there okay. Not saying that it's appropriate,

28:13

but is there any room for it he was

28:16

kidding? I don't think he was. Was

28:18

he? It seemed he had a big laugh on it, smile

28:20

on his face when he said

28:21

it. Like, he he I saw

28:23

the video. I didn't just hear the audio.

28:25

That's why I always say just kidding after

28:27

I'm kidding.

28:28

That's why No room

28:29

for interpretation. Oh,

28:30

it's sarcasm. If

28:31

he was kidding, he should have just been, like, just kidding.

28:33

I I don't doubt that there there's a kernel

28:36

of truth in that he actually believes that,

28:38

but I also think him saying it

28:41

and everyone laughing

28:42

along. Is because he said it

28:44

in a very jovial jokingly. And

28:47

not like an as an actual

28:48

Or it could

28:49

just be I've been given permission to

28:51

laugh by somebody Think the

28:53

reason people think he's not kidding is because

28:55

this is probably what

28:57

older generations of head coaches and

28:59

probably some current ones still believe about

29:02

these types of players and their families.

29:04

So that's why maybe

29:06

you give them the better for the job, maybe you don't,

29:08

though.

29:09

Like, there's certainly harmful stereotypes

29:11

-- Sure. -- that head coaches perpetuate

29:14

constantly in the sport. So I don't know

29:16

if What If you did if you said just

29:18

kidding, I'd be like, oh, okay. No. No. You I think

29:20

you're I think you're right. III think

29:22

he believes it, but

29:24

also he said it in a very exaggerated

29:27

way

29:28

to make light of it.

29:29

Pleasure past No. No.

29:31

No. It suggested he's kidding other than you.

29:33

No. The one that didn't play

29:34

it again. Play to get listen listen to

29:37

the tone of his voice. Again, the backs are

29:39

different. Yeah. We want mother

29:41

father, you know, dual parent. Mhmm. We want that

29:43

kid to be three, five, coming up because he gotta be smart

29:45

-- Mhmm. -- not bad decisions off the

29:47

field at all -- Mhmm. -- because

29:49

he has to be a leader of man. It's so many

29:52

attributes in what we look for.

29:54

Physical. I mean, office of Lima. My deepest of Lima

29:56

is totally opposite.

29:57

You know

29:57

what mean? Single mama. Trying

30:01

to get it. He's on

30:03

free lunch. I mean, like, I

30:06

mean, I'm talking about just trying

30:08

to make he trying to rescue

30:10

mama. Like, mama barely made

30:12

the fright.

30:13

So first of all, you you could tell the inflection

30:15

in his voice. The defense

30:16

is a lot. Oh, hold on now. Not not But

30:18

if what he's quarterbacks.

30:19

That

30:20

is serious. Yes. Yes.

30:21

That's also But but again, my

30:23

point comes back to this. You think if

30:25

the number one quarterback in the nation, came

30:28

from a single parent household and said,

30:30

I'd love to play it for in Colorado, for

30:32

coach Dion. Dion was, no. No.

30:34

Not for me. You think he's saying no? Right?

30:36

Like, that's that's and that's where all of

30:38

these rule of thumb fly out the window

30:41

is that we're willing to abandon all

30:43

of them at the sign of the thing that actually

30:46

matters. Well,

30:47

you say this and you said you realized

30:49

something and something that I realized

30:51

that Whittingham realized because and it wasn't

30:54

hard to notice it because I've

30:56

rarely seen Whittingham this enraged.

30:59

There is Popular culture

31:01

movement now that enrages Whittingham,

31:03

not unlike the one sort of cashless

31:06

society enrages me, I am not wrong

31:08

about this. You will take my cash. My cash

31:10

has value everywhere in the world.

31:12

You will not take that American principal from

31:14

me. I will not buy your seven seventy

31:16

eight coffee anymore. If you're someone that will

31:18

not take cash. Take a stand in. There you go.

31:21

Winningham says

31:23

that this movement and he's gonna lose

31:25

he's going to lose. Mhmm. This

31:27

movement of everyone wants

31:30

to wear sneakers all the time, no

31:32

one wants to wear dress shoes, No

31:34

one young wants to dress up

31:36

for a wedding. A wedding that requires

31:39

no sneakers. Whittingham is here to

31:41

argue for the day where formal

31:43

wear is required. Damn it

31:45

in the name of love.

31:47

Dan, the dress shoe is gonna

31:49

come back. I assure you.

31:51

No. looking at the camera right now. No. The

31:53

dress shoe will come back. No. It will

31:55

return. No. No. No. No. At some point. But

31:58

For for the moment, we still have formal

32:00

occasions. They're not many of them. The pandemic

32:02

has ruined a lot of them. You go to a business

32:04

dinner. You see people wearing jeans.

32:06

See people wear in dress sneakers. You

32:09

see people wear in regular sneakers? A

32:11

a pair a pair of air Jordans. Suffices

32:14

now, as formal wear.

32:16

It's not. It is not. When you go

32:18

to a wedding and, you know, the

32:21

the groom says, hey, we're all wearing dress

32:23

shoes. And a bunch of

32:25

adult adult men go,

32:27

I don't know how to get dress shoes. Can we

32:29

wear sneakers instead? Get a

32:31

pair of dress shoes, a nice pair

32:33

of loafers.

32:34

Go to a DSW. Do

32:38

Where do you get dress shoes? He

32:39

has stuff. He can go to a mall and get a pair of

32:41

dress shoes lads. It's like What do we?

32:44

Like, we're We we have to wear Jordans

32:46

all the time. Yes. They're uncomfortable. They're

32:48

not they're not perfect formular. They look fantastic.

32:51

You look sharp. look presentable. You

32:53

look like you're ready for a formal occasion. You're

32:55

ready to love love. Wow.

32:57

When you have a pair of dress shoes

32:58

on, it's part of the wedding experience.

33:01

Him, you are gonna winning him, you were losing.

33:03

I thought on Instagram recently,

33:05

four members of our crew revealed

33:08

to the audience that they were all wearing the same exact

33:10

Jordan. That what that

33:11

is and and 1 is homogenizing is, like,

33:13

this is what school. It's the only leaving that school. No.

33:15

No. Put on a different pair of shoes. No. No. personal

33:19

Chris, I'd like to offer a formal apology.

33:22

This is all my fault.

33:24

Oh, you're you're gonna alleged that you trend

33:26

said it. No. It's because

33:27

you were it's worth speaking right now.

33:30

No.

33:30

Because in twenty fifteen

33:33

or twenty sixteen, I can't remember whenever I started

33:36

doing lots of sports center and

33:38

lots of

33:38

TV. I said, yeah,

33:40

I'm not wearing shoes anymore. I'm wearing sneakers.

33:43

Billy, are you paused by the number of times

33:45

that Amin has made everything about him

33:47

today, including the invention of the

33:49

wearing of

33:49

sneakers.

33:50

He's not with a suit? I mean, look,

33:52

I'm not saying I did it for weddings because

33:54

the Jordan eleven's are famously

33:56

called the

33:56

Tuxedos, the black and white 1. So

33:59

peering dress shoes though. They

34:01

have leathers that make some dressy. Tanger

34:03

woods, by the way.

34:04

Yep. Single. What do you do? Single

34:07

child.

34:07

Maria Sherpa. Oh, sibling. Basketball.

34:11

It feels like it makes

34:11

sense. John, John.

34:13

These are the odds out. Those are not basketball. Yeah.

34:15

Bill Bradley.

34:16

Leonardo DiCapriya.

34:17

Yeah. Mhmm. Michael

34:19

Jackson. That's

34:19

a list of famous only children. Yeah. Michael

34:21

Jackson, the most famous only children. Michael

34:25

Jackson, and they believe Michael

34:28

Trex. A wide

34:29

receiver, not the singer. THIS

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35:52

Dan Libertador, Tristan

35:55

himself, Stugotz. Tristan

35:57

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35:57

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35:59

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36:13

Billy, I think I have this right. I

36:15

think that our next guest here

36:18

is the authority. You hate the

36:20

ash astros. The Astros have not gotten

36:22

enough attention for being dirty

36:24

cheaters, obvious cheaters. They

36:26

win in the end because they win the title and

36:28

then couple years

36:30

later, they win again because they're great.

36:32

They've been pretty good since they were busted

36:34

for cheating. And they were good. They were

36:36

really bad before that. THEY PROVED

36:38

THE TANKING WORKS BECAUSE THEY GOT RICH

36:40

OFF OF TANKING. Reporter: AND CHEATING

36:42

AND EVAN DRILLIC, HIS NEW BOOK WINNING

36:44

FIXES EVERYTHING HOW BASEBALL BRIDEST MIND

36:47

created sports's biggest mess.

36:49

I have not seen this chronicle this way

36:52

anywhere. He's the one who wrote

36:54

the original story. He's a senior writer for the

36:56

athletic. Broke the story of the

36:58

machining scandal and then covered the franchise

37:01

from two thousand and thirteen to two thousand

37:03

and

37:03

sixteen. So I think billy that this man is

37:05

an American hero for you. Yeah.

37:07

I mean, I the the title I

37:09

mean, I'm not a writer. A bit wordy. I feel like

37:11

you could just called the book thirty fucking

37:13

cheaters. Yes. I

37:14

mean, that

37:16

would have sufficed. Welcome,

37:21

by the way. Good

37:22

morning, guys. Thanks for having me. Yeah. I'll I'll keep

37:24

that in mind for the next the next book. I'll

37:26

try to keep it a little title more to the

37:28

point

37:29

there. So that title was not in consideration.

37:32

No. No. I don't think I don't think

37:34

Barnes and Noble would have really wanted to

37:36

play that one with my

37:37

guess. Well, tell the people through all of

37:39

your reporting and thank you Evan for being on

37:41

with us. The new ground or terrain you're

37:43

covering in the book ON THIS THAT PEOPLE

37:46

NEED TO KNOW ABOUT THIS IS AN UNDERCOVERED

37:48

STORY UNDER REPORTED NOT COVERED AT

37:50

ALL VERY

37:51

WELL. SO YOU TELL US WHAT DID WE MISS

37:54

I think there's lot people missed, and

37:56

the book is really answering a question

37:58

of how did we get here? It reveals

38:00

new details about what happened the

38:02

cheating in Houston, some of the cheating other

38:04

teams were doing. But, you know, how

38:06

do you arrive at this point where you have this massive

38:09

scandal You get three managers fired,

38:11

Hinchcora, Beltran, you get the general

38:13

manager fired, Luno, and it's

38:15

not an accident. You know, the Astros in twenty

38:18

nineteen right before our story comes out. They

38:20

fired their assistant general manager after

38:22

he had this drunken outburst in the clubhouse. I

38:24

think lot of people remember this because it

38:26

was right before the world series. The guy got fired.

38:29

And so it's it's not happenstance that

38:31

all this stuff happens in Houston. There

38:33

were other scandals along the way. And I

38:35

had been in Astra's beat writer. I had was

38:38

really the first to write about their culture

38:40

back nine years ago now in twenty fourteen.

38:43

And, you know, for a long time, people were like,

38:46

they're so smart and they're so progressive. How could

38:48

you ever present anything critical to

38:49

them? And, you know, I think ten years

38:52

later now, people are starting

38:54

to open their eyes, and I think the book will help

38:56

them open their eyes. Evan, I don't think that

38:58

people realize though that you've written the anti

39:00

money

39:00

ball. You've you're explaining in your book

39:03

among other things how corporate America

39:05

has consumed baseball. Has

39:07

eaten it? Yeah. Look, I think moneyball

39:10

brought some smart things into the sport and it was

39:12

inevitable. But this is the outgrowth

39:14

of moneyball. This is all the ugly stuff

39:16

that came along with moneyball. Frankly,

39:19

nobody really wanted to pay attention to for

39:21

a long time. You know, if you sat there and

39:24

wrote critical things or presented critical

39:26

views or questions about what

39:29

these smart moneyball era teams

39:31

were doing. You know, they they painted you as

39:33

a luddite. You'd left behind what You don't like numbers,

39:35

you some dummy, you didn't read moneyball. But

39:37

the reality is when you apply this cost

39:40

efficiency model, not just to your

39:42

roster, But the entirety of an organization,

39:45

there's gonna be some ugly stuff that goes

39:47

on. And the Astros tried to

39:49

do this to the extreme. When

39:51

Jeff Little takes over, Jim Crane gives him a blank

39:53

piece of paper. You know, this is your oyster.

39:55

Do it the way you think it should be done? Well,

39:57

the way it should be done was good at

40:00

building a winning roster, good at making

40:02

money, and Batard at taking care

40:04

of their people, bad at preventing cheating and

40:06

bad at not blowing

40:08

up. So being a beat writer and being

40:10

there every day, I mean, from where they came

40:12

from, they were not good. And then they are

40:14

great. Was there kind of like a sense

40:16

of this is too good to be true? Or was

40:18

it more like, let's just enjoy this

40:20

ride because this is going really well. So let's

40:23

not kind of look into why this is

40:24

happening. I mean, I think this goes to

40:26

the heart of the book and and the title.

40:28

Forget the too long subtitle there,

40:30

but does winning fix everything.

40:33

Right? When a sports team wins, This

40:35

has been true for a long time. You're gonna get a

40:37

glowing book about how darn

40:39

smart they are. Right? Because they won. What what else

40:41

is the goal besides holding

40:43

up that trophy? At the end of the season.

40:46

And in the case of the Astros, you

40:48

know, the conversation actually keeps going.

40:50

They won, but there's something

40:52

else going on And in the after's case,

40:54

a lot of other stuff was going on

40:56

here. Yeah. I think after moneyball, you

40:58

had a lot of writers, a lot of sports writers,

41:01

who just who wanted to be the next Michael Lewis.

41:03

They wanted to write about and

41:06

slap her over all this innovation in

41:08

the sport and look how smart everybody is.

41:10

Look at these disruptors. Let's put them

41:12

all up on a pedestal and didn't

41:14

actually consider yeah. But what's actually

41:17

going on? On the ground and inside

41:19

the organization. Evan did

41:22

Jeff Lou now, the former Astros

41:24

general manager did he ultimately

41:27

do his job too well? He

41:29

got fired along with his manager

41:32

and two other managers who had already left the organization.

41:35

No shot. Jeff Luno

41:37

could have, if he had paid attention

41:40

to some other elements of his business,

41:42

treating people well, paying people well. Creating

41:45

a better culture. He's a real shot

41:47

to be a hall of fame executive. Based on

41:49

the skill he has in

41:51

terms of constructing a roster, bringing

41:53

in innovative people. Little did lot

41:56

of smart stuff, but you don't have

41:58

to do all the other stuff that

42:00

went along. With Juno smart

42:02

stuff. Right? You can you can be smart

42:04

and not have this kind of disaster happen.

42:07

And that was always the defense in Houston. It

42:09

was This is how it has

42:11

to be done. If change were comfortable,

42:13

it would have already been done. You

42:15

don't have to treat people the way the Astros

42:18

treated people. Don't have to have an organization

42:21

that brings in McKinsey and company the consulting

42:23

firm in the middle of the baseball season

42:25

to evaluate manager AJ Hinches

42:28

moves. You don't have to do that, but he did

42:30

it. So I so that that's one example.

42:32

And and the cheating scandal is a fairly big 1, but

42:34

you're kinda talking about you know, like,

42:37

moneyball as if the the player of moneyball

42:40

is about player evaluation. But

42:42

what what are the specific examples don't

42:44

I don't mean to ask you to give away your book. What

42:46

are these specific examples of this organization

42:49

went awry in trying to apply this method

42:51

to everything?

42:52

What is moneyball about? Right? I mean, Stugotz

42:55

to be cheeky. It's money. The whole thing about

42:57

moneyball is creating a new way

42:59

a better way for owners to evaluate

43:02

players, and really what does that mean to

43:04

save money, to build cheap rosters,

43:06

to win baseball games? Well, you can take

43:08

that cost efficiency mindset,

43:11

and apply it to your whole organization. We're gonna

43:13

save money at every possible corner. When

43:15

the Astros this current ownership

43:18

Jim Crane gets there in twenty

43:20

eleven. They clean house. They fire

43:22

everybody. Didn't really matter. You

43:25

know, how good you you were. Most people

43:27

were just pushed out. We can get somebody

43:29

twenty thousand dollars cheaper. But what happens

43:31

when you do that? You lose a lot of wisdom you

43:33

lose people who probably you should have

43:35

worked to bring up to speed if maybe

43:38

they weren't, you know, technologically savvy.

43:40

And they're all sorts of examples people who

43:42

deserve title promotions didn't

43:44

get them. They always wanted to keep pay,

43:47

not just for players, but for their

43:49

entire staff, in the bottom half

43:51

of the league when Jeff Luna would go to

43:53

owners meetings and meet with other Astros owners.

43:56

He would tout literally show these other

43:58

owners hey, we're at the bottom of all

44:00

these lists. Business owners love

44:02

to save money. That's great. But

44:04

the Astros took it so far. And

44:07

rubbed so many people the wrong way.

44:10

They were creating this Tinder box that it

44:12

was gonna explode. People weren't gonna protect

44:14

the team. People weren't gonna be loyal.

44:17

There was no communication. There was

44:18

distrust. It it was it

44:20

was moneyball and steroids. There's a way to

44:23

look at it. Was AJ Hinge a fall guy

44:25

because, like, at the time, what it felt like and

44:27

it could have been spin. Right? It felt like

44:29

Major League Baseball gave all the players

44:31

immunity because they just wanted to get answers.

44:33

Right? And, you know, management, manager,

44:36

stuff like that, or collateral damage. It doesn't matter

44:38

because they're not the stars that you're going to see.

44:40

And then there's reports that AJ Hinge took baseball

44:42

bats to some of the equipment to, quote, unquote,

44:45

try to stop it. But then he said he didn't

44:47

vocally tell them to stop it. So

44:49

I guess he admitted some guilt there. So

44:51

was he just collateral damage or is

44:53

that, like, spin? Like, why did they give

44:55

all the players immunity to not actually

44:57

punish of people involved and

44:59

then, like, let him kinda seemingly

45:01

take the fall for it. Manfred and the

45:03

commissioner's office screwed up a lot in this

45:05

process. But as far as hunch goes,

45:08

his title is manager, and don't mean that in,

45:10

like, just baseball manager. He has to manage

45:12

his people. He is in charge of

45:14

that clubhouse. At the end of the day, that's his

45:16

group Lunoz certainly there too. Jim

45:18

Crane is certainly at the top of the organization.

45:21

But yeah, when you allow a cheating scene to

45:23

fester and and hinge did, you

45:25

know, try to make some demonstration, hey,

45:28

I don't like this. But he never, in

45:30

front of the whole team, said, we are stopping

45:32

this today. And he regrets that

45:34

deeply. He should have. So Hinge totally

45:37

failed. Now, the question about

45:39

why the players weren't punished This

45:41

it it's an annoying technical answer,

45:44

but basically, because the commissioner hadn't

45:46

brought this up to the commissioner to the players

45:48

union sooner in advance,

45:51

If he tries to decide one day, you know what,

45:53

I'm gonna newly punish this behavior

45:55

like this with x number of games. The union's

45:58

gonna file grievance. They're gonna get it overturned.

46:00

think it's ridiculous. The notion that

46:02

the commissioner had to give immunity to

46:05

get to the answers. Why? Because

46:07

the original story Ken Rosenthal and I did

46:09

had everything. And then video

46:12

comes out after that from John Boy, backing

46:14

up everything in the story. We had player on the record,

46:17

Mike Fireers. Rodneyford couldn't

46:19

have gotten to the bottom of what happened without

46:21

giving immunity? No nonsense. He didn't

46:23

want to be in a spot where he

46:25

tries to punish the

46:26

players, and then he looks weak because

46:28

the union gets him vacated or overturned.

46:31

So I I was gonna ask you about fires. Does any

46:33

of this happen with out Mike fires.

46:35

And then also, does

46:38

Mike fires do what he did

46:40

had he not been left off of the playoff roster?

46:43

So because Fire's was on the

46:45

record, I think there's this outside perception

46:47

that he calls up Ken Rosenthaler on

46:49

one day and he's like, hey, you guys

46:51

you guys know the Asterias for cheating. Mhmm. And

46:54

and I get why people make that assumption.

46:56

And maybe, you know, it's not impossible that it

46:58

could have gone that way, I guess. But it's

47:01

not actually what happened. The

47:03

story I started reporting on it

47:06

thirteen months before it came out. Comes out

47:08

November twenty nineteen, I learned what

47:10

happened from inside the organization in

47:12

October of twenty eighteen. So more than year

47:14

before the story comes up. I get fired in

47:16

the middle of this, sitting in my notebook,

47:19

I pair up with Ken and we finally

47:21

start making headway. We're days

47:23

away, literally three days away from publishing.

47:25

We've already got drafts. We've got all the facts.

47:28

We have, at that point, three unnamed sources,

47:30

but we're comfortable. We know what we've got. But

47:33

we're reporters. We want to try to get somebody

47:35

on the record. We want to try to get more information.

47:37

Call as many people as we can. So,

47:40

Ken calls Mike, tells them what we have

47:42

and I think that's important. We weren't just fishing.

47:44

It was, hey, this story is coming, this is

47:46

what we got and, you know, let me read it

47:48

to you. And Mike at that point was

47:51

was willing to confirm it and willing

47:53

to go on the record. And and I don't

47:55

say any of this to minimize Mike fires.

47:58

Having the courage to put your

48:00

name behind it and tell

48:02

people what your baseball team

48:04

had done that's not easy. That's

48:06

the action of a whistleblower. And whistleblower is

48:09

a rare in any industry. But,

48:12

yeah, the idea that This story

48:14

only happens because Mike Fire decides

48:17

to talk. It's just not actually

48:19

what happened. It's not the way this came together.

48:21

Like you tried to set fires to the organization.

48:23

Also classic Rosenthal. I mean, Jesus.

48:26

Yeah. Rosenthal not really swooped in its stores.

48:30

No. I wanted Kenny to do that.

48:32

Okay, Kenny. Is the biggest name in in baseball

48:34

reporting. Right? I mean, you know, if we got a

48:36

chance to get We 1 one chance to get a guy on

48:38

the phone. Do I want Ependrelic making

48:40

that call or I want Ken doing it? So I

48:42

was happy to work with her. I just wanted the story

48:45

out. Right? Burning a hole in my notebook. I had

48:47

the thing for more than a

48:48

year. It was, you know, it's eating at

48:50

you. So I I love Ken. I'm glad

48:52

he's So,

48:52

I mean, it just sounds like you did the work and he came

48:54

in and got find your scores. One time,

48:56

right? It

48:57

does. It's out. And you're okay. Yeah. Thank you.

49:00

Just in fact, you said in the middle of it that you'd

49:02

been fired. Right? So once the what

49:04

is the backstory there and what is the

49:06

journey and the danger, you know,

49:08

because you wanted to do this and wanna do this

49:10

for a career. And my guess is

49:12

a book about the team that you're covering cheating

49:14

isn't the way that you imagined it going?

49:17

No. Look, I was at a when I find

49:19

out about the the Astros cheating, I

49:21

was working for a regional sports network

49:23

in Boston. So the whole operation

49:25

there was geared towards Celtics basketball

49:28

games and reacting to sports

49:30

talk radio, which, you know, that's fine and great. But

49:32

it is not the type of place that values or

49:35

knows how to do investigative reporting. It

49:37

it's just not. And I didn't

49:39

expect to be fired, but it was one of the reasons

49:41

why the story didn't come out sooner.

49:44

Was a, I still needed to do more reporting,

49:46

but b, I didn't trust the place to back

49:48

me up. If it did come out and the Astros

49:50

had would attack me. And by the way, they absolutely

49:52

would have. We saw a year later how they tried

49:55

to attack Stephanie Apsina Sports Illustrated

49:57

called her liar. I mean, you know, So

49:59

I made the right call and then in the end

50:02

getting fired is is this total great

50:04

thing because it allows me to go to the

50:05

athletic. Allows me to pair up with Ken who

50:08

did not steal my reporting. Yeah. And Yeah.

50:10

He made the right

50:11

call, man.

50:12

Well, I feel like he took advantage of a guy down on

50:14

his luck.

50:17

Oh, you need me. You don't have an error if you want?

50:20

No. We'll just make it one for you. That's all.

50:24

Evan, why is baseball so good at

50:26

cheating? Between this, the

50:28

hacking, or the cardinals hack the Astros,

50:32

different types of PEDs you'd never heard

50:34

of. Why is baseball at the cutting

50:36

edge? But it's 1 back to nineteen nineteen. But

50:38

is it good is it good in cheating or is

50:40

that it's always evolving

50:42

and they're looking for the margins where

50:44

victory can reside and they

50:46

don't apply anything in the way of morals

50:49

because I don't think they're good at

50:50

cheating. They all get busted. They all get caught

50:52

cheating because they don't have morals about

50:54

doing it by the rules because their competition but

50:57

is that is that exclusive to baseball? Why

50:59

does it happen to basketball? No soccer. It's

51:01

it's exclusive to corporate America, which

51:03

is what it is that Evan is saying

51:05

here. The smart people got to sports and realized,

51:08

wait a minute, people aren't doing things dirty enough.

51:10

The smart people got to sports and they're like,

51:12

we can cut all sorts of corners and make

51:14

money through cheating because they're on some fictitious

51:17

rules about their romantic

51:18

game, and we could bang on garbage cans and

51:20

win the world series. Yeah.

51:23

I mean, you're all these points are are

51:25

pretty much right. The, you know,

51:27

the afters whole, like, essence

51:30

was about figuring out ways

51:32

to get an advantage. Right? So so

51:34

when it trickles down to the clubhouse and

51:36

you've got bad relationships between the front house

51:38

front office and the clubhouse, You've got

51:41

a a strained relationship between Hinch and his

51:43

bench coach, Alex Kora. Like,

51:45

where is that line between innovation and

51:47

cheating? This was clearly cheating.

51:49

It's not as though the Astros were unaware that

51:52

they were going too far. They looked around, saw the

51:54

Red Sox Yankee's some other teams,

51:56

you know, using their video room, they're like, well, we

51:58

can we can do this better than them. But

52:01

yeah, it it is corporate America. It's

52:03

in baseball, the carrot In all

52:05

sports, the carrot, the incentive to cheat

52:08

is always gonna be there. Money, fame,

52:10

success, books written about you, acclaim,

52:13

really money at the end of the day is a big one.

52:16

There will be another great scandal in sports

52:18

or at least there will be another great cheating scheme

52:20

whether we find out about it. You know, maybe

52:22

they'll get smart, maybe they will wear a buzzer

52:25

under their jersey, and nobody knows about

52:27

it. But if people are always gonna try to

52:29

bend the rules, baseball, football doesn't

52:31

Batard. in sports? Lou

52:33

now seems like a a bad person

52:36

in general, just the way that you're describing

52:38

him. Does he get fired without cheating

52:40

scandal, or is he still there today? 1

52:43

of the things that's almost uncomfortable

52:45

for me, and it goes back to the title of the book,

52:48

is that if you take away the cheating scheme,

52:50

all this other crap was going on in Houston,

52:52

and yet the team was very successful. And

52:54

I think that's really hard for

52:57

people, sports fans to reconcile. Well,

52:59

wait, they're winning. How could how could they

53:01

be bad? How could there be all this other crap going

53:03

on? You know, does does

53:06

the means justify the end.

53:08

And I hope that's a question people read in

53:10

the book really do ask themselves. Is,

53:12

do you care how you get there?

53:14

Right? Even if it's not that's most extreme

53:16

example of a cheating

53:18

scene. And Luna, you know, he's

53:21

this is a shades of gray situation. The

53:23

guy is smart. The guy brought good stuff

53:25

in a baseball. You know,

53:27

smart techniques. But he's got a lot of screwed

53:30

up stuff. Trend a lot of people really poorly.

53:33

I think one way or another, whether the cheating

53:35

scheme happens or not, you

53:37

know, you did have that incident with the

53:39

assistant general manager getting fired because he's drunk

53:41

screaming in the clubhouse at reporters, it

53:44

was gonna blow up. It

53:46

was a matter of time before something

53:48

went

53:48

awry. And in the end, you have multiple things

53:51

going on. The new book winning fixes

53:53

everything, how dirty fucking cheaters

53:55

always end up winning on it

53:57

has more reporting on this than you have

54:00

seen anywhere else. Before we let you go and

54:02

we gotta get out, there's more information on

54:04

this, and I'm telling you you should take a look at it.

54:06

If you wanna know, how the underbelly of

54:08

greed and business work to contaminate and

54:10

corrupt everything. But before you get

54:12

out of here, Evan, what are people getting most

54:14

wrong about this scandal? What in your book

54:17

is something that is vastly different

54:19

from the tangential knowledge that

54:21

people have of the Astros or cheaters

54:23

and they

54:24

won. And they kept winning after they stopped

54:26

cheating because when cheating worked. People

54:28

have no idea how different

54:31

the public narrative around the Astros.

54:33

And probably around a lot of teams is

54:36

from what actually goes on on

54:38

the inside. My reaction when reporting

54:40

out a lot of this was just whoa, This

54:43

is wild. People think, oh,

54:45

this guy is so smart. This guy is so great. And

54:47

then you get under the hood and they're all fighting with

54:49

each other. They have no idea what to do. And

54:51

it's creating chaos. It was quote in the book

54:54

from somebody with direct knowledge and legal investigation.

54:56

Everybody thought it was this well oiled

54:58

machine. But when he looked inside, it

55:00

was disorganized

55:01

mess. And I'm very proud that

55:03

the book is truly a look inside. Evan,

55:06

thank you for being on with us. I will tell the audience

55:08

again. Winning fixes everything how baseball's

55:10

brightest minds created sports biggest mess.

55:13

It is really kind of like the anti money ball.

55:15

Or the evolution and revolution

55:17

of moneyball. Thank you, sir. Thanks, guys.