0:00

I've never heard a story like this

0:02

in my life. The story of drug

0:04

trafficking, bribery, kidnapping, and even murder. Which

0:06

earns you the nickname of America's dirtiest

0:08

cop, and I want to know everything.

0:10

Okay? But let's just be clear. If

0:12

you choose to have a conversation with

0:14

me about this, you're going to hear

0:17

things that you won't like. Jesus. Let

0:19

me just say this. Being a New

0:21

York cop was the greatest job in

0:23

the world. But it's not built for

0:25

somebody to come in and be the

0:27

night and be the night and shining

0:29

armor. You're working minimal wage. Civilians are

0:31

against you and you're directly told not

0:33

to make drug arrests. Why? Oh, because

0:36

they had a budget to manage. And

0:38

the average amount of all the time

0:40

for one crack arrest was 18 hours.

0:42

So that leads to the streets becoming

0:44

unwieldy. So what happens is a guy

0:46

like me whose entrepreneurial spirit shows up

0:48

and says, there's a way to control

0:50

this. I can't arrest them. So I

0:52

taxed them. And that escalated. Greed is

0:54

powerful, brother. But what happens then? You

0:57

become God. I was making more than

0:59

the president of the United States by

1:01

protecting one of the largest drug

1:03

trafficking organizations in New York, but

1:05

I was losing control and I

1:07

became the face of New York

1:09

City's corruption problem. People want to

1:11

be dead. And then in 1992 you

1:13

were arrested and you admitted to hundreds

1:16

of crimes. But what about your family

1:18

at this point? You know, that was

1:20

tough. That really special people? Mike, we

1:22

spoke to your parents. Do you want

1:24

to see what they said? I'm Carol's

1:26

out. I'm Michael Dow's mother. I

1:33

find it incredibly fascinating that when we look at

1:35

the back end of Spotify and Apple and Art

1:37

audio channels, the majority of people that watch this

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podcast haven't yet hit the follow button or the

1:41

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like to make a deal with you, I would

1:45

like to make a deal with you. If you

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could do me a huge favor and hit that

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subscribe button, I will work tirelessly from now until

1:52

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2:00

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2:02

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2:05

thing we love. If you could

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2:09

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2:11

listening to this, that would mean

2:13

the world to me. That is

2:15

the only favour I will ever

2:17

ask you. Thank you so much

2:20

for your time. Back to this

2:22

episode. Mike. When people do interviews

2:24

with you, they often describe you

2:26

as New York's dirtiest cop. No.

2:28

And I watched that over and

2:30

over again in your interviews, and

2:32

I wondered as I watched people

2:35

calling you, Not good. Yeah, and

2:37

that's a touchy subject, but I

2:39

accept it. And I've turned it

2:41

into something where I'm able to

2:43

maybe chaperone an audience because of

2:45

it, but it's not nice to

2:47

hear that. More importantly, it's not

2:50

nice for your parents to hear

2:52

something like that. And thank God

2:54

they're still alive, but you know,

2:56

it's not the happy day when

2:58

your mother says... Seize your name

3:00

on the front page of the

3:02

newspaper. I'll tell you that for

3:05

nothing good. Yeah, and how many

3:07

Crimes did you commit while you

3:09

were a New York cop? So

3:11

It may have been thousands because

3:13

every time I did something that

3:15

was inappropriate So you got to

3:17

step back for a second every

3:20

time a police officer puts on

3:22

his badge and swears that oath

3:24

and takes the job on He's

3:26

basically taking a risk on everything

3:28

he does And that's really a

3:30

very difficult position to be in.

3:32

Everything you do legitimately can end

3:35

you up being sanctioned or arrested.

3:37

So I would suggest basically anything

3:39

I did or any interaction I

3:41

did could have been considered with

3:43

some kind of criminal intent. And

3:45

still on the top line just

3:47

painting the picture here, what are

3:50

the, before we get into the

3:52

detail, what are the variety of

3:54

crimes that you committed as a

3:56

New York police officer? Every time

3:58

you take something from somebody, money...

4:00

cash, drugs, personal property, let's say.

4:02

It's basically a robbery, basically, because

4:04

you have a gun on your

4:06

hip and you're using a position

4:09

of power. So you would start

4:11

with robbery, extortion, burglary, when you

4:13

went into someone's home and came out

4:16

with a product. I mean, I've taken

4:18

tapes from, you know, back in the

4:20

day, you know, those VCR tapes, they

4:22

were. There was a lot of good

4:24

stuff in some PCR tapes. I

4:27

mean, we can get a little

4:29

humorous here, but the reality was,

4:31

you know, some guys porn collection

4:33

might be missing. I mean, these

4:36

are the things that you ran

4:38

into. They're cash, they're gold coins.

4:40

You know, whatever was, when someone's

4:42

dead, it's really hard for them

4:45

to complain about what's missing. So,

4:47

you know, it's ironic, it's stupid,

4:49

and it's debauchery at the same

4:51

time. It could have been. They

4:53

were dead. They were dead. They were

4:56

dead. They couldn't use it

4:58

anymore. I mean, they were

5:00

smoking crack, okay? So I'm

5:03

in the 94th precinct in

5:05

Brooklyn now, which is Williamsburg,

5:07

where you say it was

5:10

a lovely place. And it

5:12

was. It was becoming

5:14

lovely when we were

5:16

there. They started opening

5:18

up some studios. I

5:21

mean, you walk into a home and there's

5:23

a guy in his couch like this sitting

5:25

there with a hole in his side with

5:27

the knife still in it. He's bled out.

5:30

And the place looked like there was

5:32

a party that didn't stop. So

5:34

while there, I'm sitting around waiting

5:36

and waiting for the boss to

5:38

show up and the squad to

5:40

show up, the detective squad to

5:42

show up. And I'm looking around

5:45

rummaging a little bit. See what's

5:47

like, like looking for the evidence

5:49

of the crime scene. So I'm

5:51

saying, okay, he's dead, there's crack,

5:53

evidence of, there was no crack

5:55

there, by the way, there was

5:58

all gone. No one leaves crack.

6:00

behind. The cigarette smokes will pile,

6:02

you know, the airshoes will pile

6:04

out of the air trace and

6:06

there's beer bottles everywhere. So it's

6:08

July. It's 100 degrees and this

6:10

apartment has no air conditioning in

6:13

it. So what is any self-respecting

6:15

20-something year-old man want at this

6:17

point? Not the porn per se,

6:19

but the beer. Right? So I'm

6:21

looking around every beer bottle's empty

6:23

and right below the apartment is

6:26

a bodega, right below it. Upstairs

6:28

is the dead guy, and down

6:30

stairs is a bodega. So we

6:32

go downstairs, and we tell the

6:34

guy, listen, we're going to be

6:36

upstairs for a couple hours. He

6:38

hands us a six-pack of cause

6:41

light. You can't make the story

6:43

up. We walk in, me and

6:45

my partner, Tom. And in comes

6:47

to the detective, we each have

6:49

a beer with sitting in bullshit

6:51

and waiting for the boss to

6:54

show up. Borse walks in. She

6:56

looks around. She looks around, she

6:58

goes, I want every beer bottle

7:00

in here printed. She says, and

7:02

in the refrigerator. And I just

7:04

put the fucking six back in

7:06

the refrigerator when she walked it.

7:09

So I'm going, now picture this.

7:11

They know I'm corrupt, okay? But

7:13

they can't prove it. I'm on

7:15

what you would call secret probation

7:17

even though I'm not on probation.

7:19

They're watching me like a hawk.

7:22

Now I got a detective who's

7:24

looking at me like, we just

7:26

had a beer. Scared. I'm not.

7:28

I mean, I'm gonna take a

7:30

hit, I guess, right? So I

7:32

go, Sarge. She goes, what? In

7:34

that refrigerator, there's a six-pack of

7:37

cozelite. And my fingerprints are on

7:39

the bottles in the refrigerator. She

7:41

looks me, she goes, of course

7:43

it's you. She goes, of course

7:45

it's you. She goes, of course

7:47

it's you. She goes, of all

7:50

the people. in this fucking police

7:52

department. It would be your fingerprints

7:54

inside the refrigerator. on a cause

7:56

light bottle at a homicide scene,

7:58

and there's only four homicides in

8:00

this precinct this year, and you've

8:02

been on three of them. You've

8:05

been at the scene of three.

8:07

So I go, yeah, it doesn't

8:09

look too good. She goes, I'm

8:11

going to go downstairs. I'm going

8:13

to go downstairs. I'm going to

8:15

go to my car. And I'm

8:18

going to make a phone call,

8:20

whatever I got to do. I

8:22

said, she said, get rid of

8:24

that. And don't do it again.

8:26

It was already in the car.

8:28

It was already in the car.

8:30

I mean, that's what he had.

8:33

A knife in his belly and

8:35

a pawn collection. You didn't steal

8:37

the knife. No, I couldn't. There

8:39

was evidence. But you put his

8:41

pawn collection in your car. Yeah.

8:43

Wow. And you do originally trained

8:46

to become an accountant and drop

8:48

out because of a woman, right?

8:50

Yes. And you wanted to follow

8:52

her. So you end up joining

8:54

the police academy in 1982. Did

8:56

you do it because you wanted

8:58

to be a police officer? And

9:01

because you wanted to serve and

9:03

defend? No. That's not why I joined. What

9:05

did you join? I wanted a job. Because

9:07

you wanted a job. And so when you

9:09

stood there and took that oath, right? Did

9:11

you mean it? I mean, you know, no.

9:13

I mean, I guess so the answer to,

9:16

so if you say no, I mean, that

9:18

means that you have no concern or care.

9:20

So it was an immature, yes. So you

9:22

take that oath, you don't really mean it.

9:24

You don't really mean it. You don't really

9:26

mean it. I'm

9:28

embarrassed if I say, I want to

9:31

be truthful because I don't like to

9:33

lie. I felt pride when I said

9:35

it. I felt full of pride when

9:37

I said it. And as part of

9:39

your training to become a police officer,

9:41

you do some integrity training, some ethics

9:43

training to make sure that police officers

9:45

are like straight and narrow and understand

9:48

ethics. So one of the things that

9:50

I would suggest on that statement or

9:52

that the whole genre is, it wasn't

9:54

necessarily... We weren't necessarily trained on integrity

9:56

or... ethics we were trained on this

9:58

is what would happen to you if

10:00

don't take five dollars from a motorist

10:02

or fifty dollars from a motorist because

10:04

that will lead to one you being

10:07

arrested and being all over the news

10:09

and then all the cops are gonna

10:11

hate you like it was never really

10:13

explained to you as a student in

10:15

the academy the depth of the lack

10:17

of integrity and what you're actually affecting

10:19

okay for like the fundamental issue if

10:21

we don't trust law enforcement and the

10:23

downstream consequences. Thanks for saying it that

10:26

way, yes, because it destroys the very

10:28

fabric of what people trust in law

10:30

enforcement, because when you need help, you

10:32

gotta call somebody and the person that

10:34

shows up has to be trustworthy. Now,

10:36

I would argue, because I robbed money

10:38

from drug dealers and even their drugs,

10:40

you can still trust me, right? That's

10:42

what I would argue, because if you're

10:45

not doing those things, essentially. You're safe

10:47

with me and I will give you

10:49

the best police service that you ever

10:51

asked for and probably go above and

10:53

beyond to help you. There was some

10:55

kind of comment made at the end

10:57

of your training by an internal affairs

10:59

academy instructor which basically said to be

11:01

successful as a cop don't follow these

11:04

rules, the ethics rules that you were

11:06

just given. So yes, so that wasn't

11:08

the internal affairs officer that said that.

11:10

That would be your academy instructor. Okay.

11:12

Yeah. us in the Academy class. If

11:14

you live by the rules that these

11:16

guys espouse in internal affairs, you'll never

11:18

make a successful cop. Just cover your

11:21

ass. That would be his, that was

11:23

his words. Just cover your ass. What

11:25

do they mean by that? Always have

11:27

a reason, always have an excuse. Basically,

11:29

you hit it on the head. Like,

11:31

so basically, if you have a partner,

11:33

be in the same page. So let's

11:35

say something was... handle it appropriately. Maybe

11:37

there was some excessive force used, which

11:40

I'm not fond of and nor am

11:42

I in favor of. But there are

11:44

maybe times where you might have... and

11:46

I go, I don't know, no, no,

11:48

it happens. You know, you're mad, you

11:50

spit in my face, I put the

11:52

cuffs on you, I give you a

11:54

shot. It has, do you hit the

11:56

door on the way in? Sometimes. So

11:59

as long as your partner and you

12:01

have the story straight, you can pretty

12:03

much, without these cameras today, get away

12:05

with most things that are not unreasonable.

12:07

And the police all kind of agree

12:09

that they weren't snitch on each other.

12:11

That's the general, the general rule. And

12:13

it's called, I read this term, the

12:15

blue wall of silence. Yes, right. So,

12:18

let's just be clear. The first person

12:20

that's going to stitch on you is

12:22

going to be a cop. However, chances

12:24

they're not, they try not to. And

12:26

that's just the facts. Because what cop

12:28

wants to go out on patrol, knowing

12:30

that if something goes down and it

12:32

goes a little sideways from where it's

12:34

supposed to go, let's say you and

12:37

I were working together and you just

12:39

told on me last week and now

12:41

someone's probably you to death in the

12:43

street I have a chance to help

12:45

you or I can call for backup

12:47

and wait you know so you don't

12:49

want that relationship with me right I

12:51

mean we're trying to get home tonight

12:54

yeah so it really puts people in

12:56

a very precarious position because you need

12:58

those other cops for your own personal

13:00

survival so you don't want to be

13:02

snitching on other cops yeah yeah It's

13:04

you know, I mean, it's really not

13:06

built that position in this society is

13:08

not built for Somebody to come in

13:10

and be the night in shining arm

13:13

and say listen Officer Dowd that was

13:15

not appropriate. I'm gonna have to report

13:17

you right now Before he goes to

13:19

report me. I'm gonna be the bludgeon

13:21

of the death Because now he's taking

13:23

my livelihood away. He's taking the food

13:25

off the table of my family. You

13:27

don't look at it as like you're

13:29

getting a guy in trouble You're taking

13:32

a career a livelihood incarceration. I mean,

13:34

these are the things that can happen.

13:36

Like I said, the minute you put

13:38

that badge on and I just get

13:40

to this, is the... minute that the

13:42

job and the is looking to take

13:44

something from you. But think about that.

13:46

A mechanic goes to work and they

13:48

say, can you get six cars done

13:51

today? I'll try. You got six and

13:53

there's a bonus fee at the end

13:55

of the day. A cop goes to

13:57

work and they're looking to screw him

13:59

the whole time. Who's looking to screw

14:01

him? The department and the civilians. I

14:03

didn't like the way he handled me.

14:05

They make a complaint. Your boss goes,

14:07

I got the people complaining about, I'm

14:10

going to have to give you a

14:12

shit assignment, or I'm going to have

14:14

to change your assignment. I mean, the

14:16

whole time, someone's against you. They're trying

14:18

to find some kind of chink in

14:20

your arm or something you did wrong.

14:22

Yeah, and it's really to come with

14:24

their ass. Back to the beginning, it's

14:27

very, very difficult, but a fireman goes

14:29

to work. You know what they do?

14:31

They save lives. They put out fires.

14:33

They put a good meal. They eat

14:35

a good meal. They have a great

14:37

meal. They have a great gym. And

14:39

they have rules, the decorum, but no

14:41

one's going, we're looking to take you

14:43

for this, we're looking to stripe you

14:46

for that. The civilians aren't walking into

14:48

a firehouse and going, I didn't like

14:50

the way that truck backed down. And

14:52

the siren blasted and hurt my ears,

14:54

they're going, yay, they're going to save

14:56

someone's life. A cop shows up on

14:58

a scene, he's going to give me

15:00

a ticket, he's going to arrest my

15:02

husband, beat me, and he doesn't believe

15:05

me, I mean, I mean, it's just,

15:07

it's just, it's just, it's such, it's

15:09

such, it's such a, it's such a,

15:11

it's such a, it's such a, it's

15:13

such a, it's such a, it's such

15:15

a, it's such a great, it's such

15:17

a great, it's such a great, it's

15:19

such a great, it's such a great,

15:21

a great, a great, a great, a

15:24

great, a great, a When we're thinking

15:26

about the factors, the environmental factors that

15:28

led you to make the decisions that

15:30

you made, one of the big factors

15:32

that I was looking into at the

15:34

time was there was obviously this crack

15:36

epidemic, but then it also seemed like

15:38

the police at the time didn't actually

15:40

want you to arrest people. Yes, that's

15:43

correct. I saw some crazy stat, which

15:45

I'm sure you'll be able to account

15:47

for me, but in the sort of

15:49

decade that you were a police officer,

15:51

you didn't do that many arrests. No.

15:53

23. You did what? You did what?

15:55

43 arrests. You did 43 arrests in

15:57

how many years? Well, I mean, total

16:00

10 years, but yeah. So not all

16:02

of that was patrol, but yeah. So

16:04

it doesn't matter. I mean, I can

16:06

make 43 arrests in a month, okay,

16:08

if I really wanted to. If you

16:10

weren't corrupt. at that time, how many

16:12

arrests do you think you probably should

16:14

have made in those 10 years based

16:16

on the crimes that you observed? 500.

16:19

Okay, so about 90% of the things

16:21

you should have arrested someone for you

16:23

didn't. Correct. Okay, and why weren't you

16:25

making more arrests? You couldn't keep the

16:27

police on patrol if they were making

16:29

arrests. They were clucking up the system.

16:31

The system will get so jammed up,

16:33

the average amount of all the time

16:35

for one crack arrest was 18 hours.

16:38

You would be paid for that. Paid

16:40

time and a half. Okay, so then

16:42

the department has to pay you more

16:44

money if you do an arrest. And

16:46

then process the arrest, and they all

16:48

get processed through the correction system, and

16:50

they all get processed through the court

16:52

system. I mean, you're talking about 150,000

16:54

arrests a year in Brooklyn alone. That's

16:57

a lot of numbers if you just

16:59

keep cranking out and everybody's getting 18

17:01

hours overtime per arrest. And who's paying

17:03

for all these arrests at the end

17:05

of the day? The city. So the

17:07

city don't want you to be arresting

17:09

people? Because they got a budget to

17:11

manage. Were you ever directly told to

17:13

stop arresting people? Yes. Yeah. How's this?

17:16

You really didn't make a dent on

17:18

it and now there's two men off

17:20

patrol. And then your next assignment was

17:22

the desk. You're making arrests causing a

17:24

problem. The city is paying for it,

17:26

there's less police available, and the robberies,

17:28

the murders and the rapes in those

17:30

communities were extremely high. They rather have

17:33

them so crack than people getting robbed

17:35

and raped and murdered. Does that make

17:37

sense? Of course it does. Yeah, so

17:39

it's all incentives. I think if you

17:41

look at any system, you'll understand why

17:43

people behave they do if you understand

17:45

the incentive structure. And in your case,

17:47

if you made more arrests of criminals,

17:49

then the city would have... both a

17:52

bill because they had to pay cops

17:54

overtime to take care of the admin

17:56

work, but also they're going to have

17:58

more cops off the street, which could

18:00

also lead to more crime. More crime.

18:02

Yes. So you were incentivized not to

18:04

arrest people. Correct. So what does that

18:06

lead to? That leads to the... streets

18:08

be coming unwieldy. You're like there's no

18:11

control. So what happens is a guy

18:13

like me who's entrepreneur spirit shows up

18:15

and says there's a way to control

18:17

this. I tax these people or arrest

18:19

them one of the two and I

18:21

can't arrest them so I tax them.

18:23

And let's talk about that first experience

18:25

of you taxing the first person which

18:27

I think was in 1983. Your starting

18:30

salary when you joined the police was

18:32

$18,000 a year, roughly? Yes. And you

18:34

pulled someone over in 1983? Yes. And

18:36

that's the first time? That's the first

18:38

time there was a tax levy. That

18:40

was the first time you committed a

18:42

crime, I guess, as a police officer?

18:44

No. But the first time that I

18:46

committed an actual... money crime I would

18:49

say. How old are you at that

18:51

point in 83? 23? 24? Yeah. And

18:53

that was basically, we called it a

18:55

Puerto Rican mystery back then, I know

18:57

that I'm famous for saying that, and

18:59

people are, ah, listen, that's what they

19:01

called it, right? Because the guy was

19:03

from Puerto Rico, and he had no

19:06

paperwork, or anything like that, and he

19:08

just bought the car. You'd pulled him

19:10

over, no plates. No plates, right. You

19:12

just came here from Puerto Rico, you

19:14

got a stack of hundreds in your

19:16

bag of hundreds in your bag, and

19:18

I'm looking, and I'm saying. You know,

19:20

you got like $2,000 worth of tickets

19:22

and I'm supposed to take your car

19:25

from you. I said, but you know,

19:27

I like lobster. Leave me enough money

19:29

for a lobster lunch. This whole thing

19:31

can go away. So the kid was

19:33

quick on his feet. He left a

19:35

couple hundred bucks under my briefcase on

19:37

the back seat. He got out and

19:39

I said, I don't want to ever

19:41

see you again, you know, unless you

19:44

got some more lobster lunch money later.

19:46

Of course I didn't say that. And

19:48

of course I left that scene with

19:50

the money and I was very uncomfortable

19:52

because it was the first time I

19:54

actually solicited something like that. But it

19:56

was sort of a, it was almost

19:58

like I won something. As a cop,

20:00

one of the things we saw in

20:03

movies back then is cops getting like

20:05

sexual favours because they're cops. Did that

20:07

happen? I would say it was available

20:09

and I've took advantage of it, but

20:11

yeah, there was some. Yeah. There was

20:13

some. I mean, I mean, that's like,

20:15

you know, you're driving by a police

20:17

gun and girl says, hello, and you

20:19

go, and you go, and you go,

20:22

fuck her. I mean, is that, is

20:24

that, is, is that like a benefit

20:26

of the job or is that, you

20:28

know, your promiscuity? Yes.

20:31

Wow. It's not just in movies. The

20:34

light is siren, only one off once.

20:36

Really? That was from a blowdrop. It

20:38

wasn't from the... Yeah, the girl's ass

20:41

hit the fucking buzzer. Like, what the

20:43

fuck? The big back. Three in the

20:45

morning, you hit the buzzer. I'm in

20:48

the back of a courtyard of nine-story

20:50

building. Your boss, your sergeant, around that

20:52

time. Did he know that you were

20:55

doing things like this? No. No. No.

20:57

But shortly thereafter, there would be a

20:59

situation where my sergeant, who was a

21:02

murder scene, dead kid, 20-year-old, shot in

21:04

the head, and there was a marijuana

21:06

spot. There's money, there's drugs, you know.

21:09

I mean, listen, it's overwhelming when you'll

21:11

come across these things, and there's a

21:13

dead body there, and you're entrusted to

21:16

handle all this stuff, and you're broke.

21:18

And so I took a little thin

21:20

stack of hundreds and put in my

21:23

pocket, it was like 600 bucks. And

21:25

as the crime scene was being processed,

21:27

in walks my sergeant, Sergeant James Otto,

21:29

he says, is this it? Like two,

21:32

three pounds of marijuana, which is like

21:34

this much marijuana, it's all a fucking

21:36

big pile of shit. And I don't

21:39

know, I was like, I don't know,

21:41

$1,500 in cash, stacked all over here.

21:43

Is this it? I go, yeah. I

21:46

go, but I felt like he was

21:48

asking me too much. So, well, I

21:50

did have this, you know, and I

21:53

take out a thin stack out of

21:55

thin stack of hundreds. anything else? I

21:57

go, no, that's it. I said, you

22:00

know, I didn't want to get full

22:02

of blood. Later on that night I

22:04

run into him at a quiet practice

22:07

they would call it. It went out

22:09

bullshit and having a couple beers. I

22:11

said, let me ask you a question.

22:14

What if, and I say, and I

22:16

call a cross money, he said, what

22:18

if I kept that 600? He goes,

22:20

I was annoyed that you gave it

22:23

to me. Like, just picture the moment.

22:25

You're 20-something years old. You're broke. You're

22:27

coming to work. You know, you're surviving.

22:30

You're in survival mode. You're out having

22:32

a couple of beers with your buddies

22:34

and your boss, who's got 20 years

22:37

on the job at this point, so

22:39

he actually could retire if he wanted

22:41

to. And he says to you, if

22:44

I don't see it, it's yours. He

22:46

says, but let me know, so you

22:48

can throw me something later on. It

22:51

was like, the whole vision of this

22:53

thing changed at that moment. It's basically

22:55

saying, if you get there, it's yours,

22:58

take what you can. before I get

23:00

there, because I don't want to witness

23:02

it, because I don't want to have

23:05

to witness it. Was he taking money?

23:07

Well, he wouldn't, he'd say no, but

23:09

clearly he was indicating that, it's good,

23:12

just don't let me see it. When

23:14

you reflect on that scene that you

23:16

arrived at, you said there was a

23:18

20-year-old man that was dead? Yeah. Did

23:21

seeing those scenes ever bother you? Initially,

23:23

my first, my first DOA was my

23:25

first day. Can I jump off a

23:28

building? and landed on his head. That

23:30

bothered me because the family showed up,

23:32

it was horrific, and I know I

23:35

gotta hold the family back and don't

23:37

touch him because he could be a

23:39

murder. We don't know. We don't know

23:42

why he's dead. It's a crime scene

23:44

essentially. I began to see people shot,

23:46

stabbed. You have a total disconnect, like

23:49

really quickly. The first shooting I was

23:51

at was doing a midnight shift and

23:53

the guys were doing a burglar, we

23:56

have a car, they would steal on

23:58

tires and tire irons and I said,

24:00

hey we should stop these guys. My

24:03

buddy Sal's like nah, my partner. Let

24:05

him go, slate, someone flags us down.

24:07

Hey, this guy's trying to steal tires

24:10

off a car. So now I said,

24:12

look, we got civilians complaining about the

24:14

same people that we should have just

24:16

tossed. Turn around, go back about two

24:19

or three blocks, guys dead in the

24:21

street. And I see a tire iron.

24:23

So I said to the people, was

24:26

there, were they carrying a... a jack

24:28

of retiree righted and they go yeah

24:30

they point over to the street where

24:33

the tire righted was for taking the

24:35

wheels off a car this guy could

24:37

have shot us you know like so

24:40

like like he's dead it could have

24:42

been us or if we did toss

24:44

this guy he could not be dead

24:47

so when you come that close to

24:49

death itself your your survival instincts instincts

24:51

give you an ability to disconnect fairly

24:54

quickly from those types of scenes Did

24:56

you ever show up to a scene

24:58

when you saw someone dead or dying

25:01

and feel sad? Yes. Yeah. Yeah, a

25:03

couple times, but more important, one that

25:05

strikes me a lot. I was talking

25:08

to the guy who was going out.

25:10

I know he was going to die.

25:12

He was stabbed in the stomach and

25:14

he's looking at me and he knows

25:17

I'm getting cold. I go, yeah, it's

25:19

going to be okay. He

25:22

says, he's getting cold off. I said,

25:24

are you going to be okay? We're

25:26

going to get you to the hospital.

25:28

The ambulance showed up like five minutes

25:31

later. He was barely conscious when he

25:33

got an ambulance and he wasn't going

25:35

to make it. And he died. And

25:37

it was sad because I couldn't do

25:40

anything for him. You saw a lot

25:42

of stuff. Why did that affect you?

25:44

I felt dead because I was talking

25:46

to him getting late. Young guy, big,

25:48

heavy, set, strong, awful black guy. His

25:51

wife is like, I looked at her,

25:53

she goes. I'm like, I knew, I

25:55

could tell it was a sexual thing.

25:57

They had sex. And the fucking guy

26:00

was like 35 years old. And he

26:02

was either dead or dying. He had

26:04

a heart attack. And I wanted to

26:06

give him CPR. But it would have

26:09

been my first actual CPR case, you

26:11

know. And the two cops I was

26:13

working with going on, don't worry about

26:15

it. Go, go get the ambulance. Don't

26:18

worry about it. Don't worry about it.

26:20

Don't worry about it. Yeah, he's going

26:22

to be okay. Don't worry about it.

26:24

Go get the ambulance. I'm like, shouldn't

26:27

we do CPR? No, no, no, you

26:29

go outside. I was the kid. I

26:31

was the rookie. I was the rookie.

26:33

I was the rookie. And these two

26:35

old time, I was like, don't worry

26:38

about it. It's going to be all

26:40

right. Go outside and direct the ambulance.

26:42

Like two minutes later, the ambulance showed

26:44

up. They started CPR on the guy.

26:47

And he died. I don't know. I

26:49

don't know why. They didn't tell me

26:51

why. And it was very disheartening because

26:53

I think I could have helped save

26:56

the guy. But what am I going

26:58

to do? Wrestle with these guys? They're

27:00

in charge. Senior cop on the scene

27:02

is in charge. At some point you

27:05

started actually dealing drugs. How did you

27:07

start getting into drugs? When was that

27:09

Eureka moment that you've realized that you

27:11

could sell drugs? My partner at the

27:14

time took some home out of the

27:16

blue. And he came back and handed

27:18

me a couple hundred dollars one day.

27:20

I said, what's that for? He goes,

27:23

that shit we've been throwing out is

27:25

cocaine. We ain't throwing it out no

27:27

more. I got somebody that wants it.

27:29

So he's bringing me cash. I was

27:31

like, okay, well, it's ain't that bad.

27:34

I mean, for me, it was like,

27:36

I didn't see it. I didn't do

27:38

it. So I was okay with it.

27:40

dope I found I would take and

27:43

if I couldn't find it I'd see

27:45

one of the others and say give

27:47

me some or give me something for

27:49

discount. I mean, that's, it becomes, you

27:52

become a market maker at that point.

27:54

Did you stop buying it to sell

27:56

it? At some point I started buying

27:58

it, yeah. How bad did it get

28:01

with the drug dealing when you were

28:03

a cop? Because it almost sounds like

28:05

you've at this point given up being

28:07

a cop, enforcing the law. So here's,

28:10

it's a dichotomy, right? Because I put

28:12

the uniform on, I go to work,

28:14

and if you are not in the

28:16

drug business, you're going to get a

28:18

good police officer. In my perspective, you

28:21

may never say that, you may never

28:23

agree with it, but if you had

28:25

a car accident and you needed a

28:27

police officer to take the report, bring

28:30

you to a hospital, I would do

28:32

all the arrangements, do what the best

28:34

I could, if you had get robbed,

28:36

I would do the report, I'd take

28:39

you to a hospital if you were

28:41

injured. You know, whatever I mean, I

28:43

responded like a proper police officer, but

28:45

if you were in the drug business,

28:48

you were mine. You were mine. Simplele,

28:50

I mean, how else can I say

28:52

it, can I say it. What

28:54

do you mean by you are mine?

28:57

You are mine. I owned you. In

28:59

what regard? In every regard. Whatever I

29:01

wanted. You were mine. You could take

29:03

their drugs. Whatever I wanted. Your car

29:06

if I wanted it. Did you ever

29:08

take someone's car? I didn't have to.

29:10

I gave me one. What else? Whatever.

29:12

Coats, jackets, gold, whatever. Chains. What was

29:15

your biggest heist heist as a police

29:17

officer? I would, they weren't that large,

29:19

I'd say 40 to 50,000 at one

29:21

time, which back then was good money,

29:24

you know, you're talking about two years

29:26

salary, you know. Yeah, if you're on

29:28

like 20, 30,000 dollars, whatever, is your

29:30

salary? Getting 40,000 is... Yeah, doubled my

29:33

salary, triple my salary, yeah, things like

29:35

that come along. You know, so there

29:37

was opportunities, so you would call that

29:39

a score, right, opposed to an ongoing

29:42

thing. Boom. It's there. It's a one

29:44

hit and wonder and it's over. Every

29:46

job in East New York, 9 out

29:48

of 10 was involved with drugs. You're

29:51

exposed to it. It's your choice on

29:53

how you deal with it. You're the

29:55

boss. You are the boss. You show

29:57

up. You're the boss. Well, your colleagues

30:00

around you doing the same. The accurate

30:02

answer is somewhere. The best description is

30:04

you would never know. You would never

30:06

know. I might because I know what's

30:09

going on. But if you were a

30:11

cop that was not involved, you would

30:13

never know. So the good cops wouldn't

30:15

know that it was happening? They wouldn't

30:18

know. Because I'm not going to tell

30:20

you. Now if you happen to say

30:22

something to me that you, hey, wait

30:24

a minute, something went down there, I'd

30:27

say, and what do you want to

30:29

do about it? You want in? I'll

30:31

tell you a funny story. Let me

30:33

go to the scene. I don't want

30:36

to describe it because it's lengthy. Long

30:38

story short, the cops show up. The

30:40

cops show up. We're the cops, but

30:42

the cops show up behind us. And

30:45

they go, oh, that's down his partner.

30:47

Leave them alone. And they turn around

30:49

and they walk away. So, the officers

30:51

knew, just, just, I don't want to

30:54

see what they're doing, because then I'm

30:56

culpable or responsible for what they're doing.

30:58

And that's how it became. And what

31:00

were you doing in that scene? Cocaine

31:03

and heroin. My partner wanted the guns.

31:05

I said, what are you going to

31:07

do with the guns? This money? This

31:09

is money, this money, that's a gun.

31:12

That's a gun. and people with debt.

31:14

So the guns may be connected to

31:16

the crime. So just... When you show

31:18

up at a scene like that, how

31:21

do you, and you arrive there, and

31:23

there's guns, there's money, there's drugs, how

31:25

do you get the money and the

31:27

drugs without other officers seeing you? It's

31:30

funny. Like how did you get it

31:32

out? Do you put it in the

31:34

back of the police car? So one

31:36

time I put it in a laundry

31:39

bag which was loaded up with heroin

31:41

and cocaine and... I happened to be

31:43

lucky. There was a row of garbage

31:45

pales along this person's entrance weight. As

31:48

the sergeant was working up the stairway

31:50

to investigate the scene with us, to

31:52

secure it, and make sure they were

31:54

doing it with us. to do. I

31:57

take this bag and I go like

31:59

this and I put it in the

32:01

garbage bill. He comes up to me,

32:03

I go, Sarge, there's a guy dead

32:06

in the doorway, they shot him through

32:08

the, through the eye hole, I said

32:10

there's another guy shot upstairs and there's

32:12

a bunch of guns and stuff up

32:14

there. I go, but there's so many

32:17

cops here, I'm gonna go 98, which

32:19

means I'm gonna go back on patrol.

32:21

He goes, good, like, good idea! Good,

32:23

we agree. So that gets me away

32:26

from the scene. So now he goes

32:28

up the stairs, I go back into

32:30

the garbage pail, pick up the green

32:32

laundry bag, and put it in my

32:35

car, and I leave. So now I

32:37

gotta go to a drug dealer, get

32:39

rid of it. And then you get

32:41

loads of cash. Eventually, yes. And what

32:44

you do with the cash? In that

32:46

specific case, I drove right to my

32:48

drug dealing friend's place, who had an

32:50

auto body, auto sound city. They put

32:53

the sound into cars. I went right

32:55

to his shop, I dropped off to

32:57

a dope with him, and he called

32:59

his buddy that sold the heroin in

33:02

the area, and so on and so

33:04

forth, and that recycles back into money.

33:06

Were you ever scared? No. No. Should

33:08

you have been? I should have been

33:11

more cautious. Did you ever think you

33:13

were going to get cool? You know,

33:15

it was in the back of my

33:17

mind for probably five years. Just never

33:20

left, and thus. You constantly are, your

33:22

anxiety levels up, your body starts to

33:24

go numb and you wonder what's wrong

33:26

with me? What's wrong with you? You're

33:29

living by three different lives. You have

33:31

a wife, you have a girlfriend, you

33:33

have drugs, you're a cop, you're selling

33:35

drugs, you're shaking people down. Everything's just

33:38

fine. It's never good. Do you have

33:40

a wife on a girlfriend? Yeah, most,

33:42

most of the time. And you have

33:44

kids. At that time, one. And

33:47

did anybody know what you were

33:49

doing at home? I would live

33:51

that up to her, but the

33:53

maincoats and the new cars and

33:55

the trips around the world, you

33:57

don't do them on a cop

33:59

salary. never said it. She knew.

34:01

Enough. And did she ever give

34:03

you advice about what you're doing?

34:05

Stop. That's what she said. Stop.

34:07

I don't need this. I'd rather

34:09

have you. Imagine that. That's a

34:11

nice feeling in a way, right?

34:13

I'd rather view it'd sleep under

34:15

a bridge. That's what she said.

34:17

Yeah. Your ex-wife. Yeah. And why

34:20

didn't you stop? You can't. You

34:22

can't stop that. It's not that

34:24

easy to stop that. I read

34:26

the story that someone, a lieutenant,

34:28

had put a complaint against you

34:30

for a trivial matter and you

34:32

retaliated by reporting them to internal

34:34

affairs for being in a drug

34:36

house and then this sort of

34:38

led to a situation where you

34:40

received death threats over the phone

34:42

from that lieutenant. Yeah, I'm working

34:44

on Coney Island. I was sent

34:46

to Coney Island to get away

34:48

from each New York because they

34:50

knew I was hot. I mean

34:52

the story is so big and

34:54

deep it's just crazy. The bottom

34:56

line with him was... I ended

34:58

up in a dispute with him

35:00

somehow. He's a cop. Yeah. I

35:02

had Mercedes-Benz. Yeah. 380 or something.

35:04

Mercedes-Benz, whatever it was. His license

35:06

plate on the back of his

35:08

car said, B. Scott. Less than

35:10

a month later, about three weeks

35:13

later, I'm out in Long Island,

35:15

and there's the car. There's only

35:17

one B. Scott, all right, and

35:19

leave your plate. And I pulled

35:21

over, and I said to my

35:23

wife, at the time, I said,

35:25

get a good look at this

35:27

guy. And he went up

35:29

into a crack house. There's only one

35:31

crack house in the whole neighborhood, and

35:33

that was it. He went up into

35:36

it, and then he came out. So

35:38

I left. I went home, and I

35:40

spoke to my neighbor, who was my

35:42

wife's uncle, who was a detective in

35:44

the 102 squad, who was 28 years

35:47

on the job at the time. I

35:49

said, listen, I said, listen, Mike, anything

35:51

but drugs. You got to turn them

35:53

in. It was hard for me to

35:55

do this because now I'm turning on

35:58

a guy that I know was involved

36:00

in drugs and I know what I

36:02

had done. previously. So I call and

36:04

turn on. They were at my house

36:07

in 45 minutes. Like, hello? I mean,

36:09

I live 45 minutes from them. They

36:11

were at my house in 45 minutes.

36:13

They do an interview with me. Long

36:15

story short. They put a line up

36:18

in front of me. I picked the

36:20

guy out. So later on, within a

36:22

week or so, I'm getting phone calls

36:24

to my house at two, three in

36:26

the morning. But every day, it's going

36:29

on every day. For about a month's

36:31

like the time. So finally I go.

36:33

What do you want, bro? Enough is

36:35

enough. I'm fucking your wife, every time

36:38

you go to work. I'm fucking her.

36:40

No, no, no, no. Oh, really? Yeah,

36:42

she gets off the train, a long

36:44

railroad, and I put her up, I

36:46

bring her home, and I fuck her

36:49

up, I bring her home, and I

36:51

fuck her. Oh, okay, thank you very

36:53

much. So, he could see you. I

36:55

don't know. Did you put plot to

36:58

kill him? No. Well, I plot to

37:00

kill his guy. Well, because it sounds

37:02

like he wants to kill you. Well,

37:04

that's different now. But I didn't. Because

37:06

I didn't. Because I didn't know who

37:09

it was. It took me years to

37:11

figure out who it was. But in

37:13

the interim, I ran into him again.

37:15

I essentially arrested him, without arresting him.

37:17

I gave him summonses, which is an

37:20

arrest, in a rest, in a way.

37:22

And he was so pissed off. He

37:24

made a complaint against against me. He

37:26

made a complaint against me. But he

37:29

was suspended. At this point, he was

37:31

suspended. Oh, so he was a civilian

37:33

when you arrested? He was a suspended,

37:35

he was a officer on suspension. Okay.

37:37

And he was suspended for being the

37:40

gun in a drug case in Harlem.

37:42

He was the collector in Harlem for

37:44

a drug organization. It turns out? What's

37:46

a collector? What's a collector? He was

37:48

the strongman. So if you owed money

37:51

to a drug organization, he went out

37:53

and collected it. Oh, okay. So he

37:55

was a police officer who had a

37:57

job collecting money for a drug organisation

38:00

in Harlem. You met a guy called

38:02

Baron Perez? Yes. Who's Baron Perez? Baron

38:04

Perez is the guy who owns Autosound

38:06

City at the time. He was what

38:08

you call a middleman in any deal

38:11

in Brooklyn. So he ran a car

38:13

shop, which was a front for a

38:15

cocaine. He was not a front. He

38:17

had been a legitimate business, but in

38:20

his business would be all the dealers

38:22

in Brooklyn would come in. And did

38:24

you, is that where you met La

38:26

Compenia? small nickel and dime spots throughout

38:28

the city. Lots of them, like dozens

38:31

of them. And they were basically based

38:33

out of bodegas. And you were a

38:35

cop at the time when you met

38:37

them? Yes. And they're one of the

38:39

most powerful drug organizations in New York

38:42

City at the time? At the time,

38:44

yes. But they were street level mostly.

38:46

They had their own organizational structure, but

38:48

they dealt with all the street level

38:51

bodegas. And at the time you're getting

38:53

paid $600 a week as a cop.

38:55

No, every two weeks. Every two weeks

38:57

is a cop, so you're making $300

38:59

a week is a cop. Right. And

39:02

this drug gang offer you, how much

39:04

money to protect? They didn't offer me

39:06

anything. I told them if they want

39:08

the protection, it was $8,000 a week.

39:10

And what did they say when you

39:13

said that? We'll pay it. So they

39:15

paid you $8,000 a week, this drug

39:17

gang for the first week, and then

39:19

they were short $700, $700. So I

39:22

told him I need the rest of

39:24

the money. A deal is a deal.

39:26

And they said, you know, we're not

39:28

paying you. We're done. So then I

39:30

threatened them and I shut their business

39:33

down. I parked police cars in front

39:35

of their business for a week and

39:37

they put a hit on me. What

39:39

does it mean when someone puts a

39:41

hit on you as a police officer?

39:44

What does that mean? They suggest to

39:46

anybody that is willing to shoot and

39:48

kill this cop, they'll pay them. And

39:50

how do you find out that this

39:53

drug gang have put a hit on

39:55

you? Well, because Baron Perez knows everybody

39:57

in the city, in the drug business,

39:59

because he does... their cars. He said,

40:01

there's a hit on you. He said, by

40:04

the company here. I said, okay.

40:06

I went out that same day. I

40:08

saw his car. I never met the guy

40:10

in my life, but I knew his

40:13

car, the company here, the

40:15

boss. I pulled him over. He didn't

40:17

know who I was. I

40:19

told him at license registration.

40:22

I just threw a paper back in

40:24

his lap. I said, you can put

40:26

a hit on me. He turned as

40:28

wide as that pen. I said if

40:30

you want to put it ahead on

40:32

me, we'll clear it up right here.

40:35

I'll let you get under car, we'll

40:37

do 10 pays walk off, you turn

40:39

around, I'll turn around, and we'll shoot

40:41

it out. Did you mean that? I

40:44

met at every word of it. You

40:46

don't say something you don't

40:48

mean when you talk about guns

40:50

and weapons. What if he said

40:52

yes? It was on, I wasn't

40:54

going to win. What did he say?

40:57

No, no, no. I said that, well, you

40:59

take the hit off. My page, you run

41:01

off 20 minutes later, and he said

41:03

the hits off, I don't want to

41:05

do any more business with you. There

41:07

was a $700,000, please leave us alone.

41:10

So you got your $700 in the

41:12

end? Yeah. And that was the

41:14

end of your relationship with them?

41:16

With La Company, correct. At some

41:18

point after that, you met a

41:21

guy called Adam Diaz, who is

41:23

a much bigger Dominican drug dealer.

41:25

And he's making a million dollars

41:28

a week. And he's selling

41:30

what, 50 million a year in cocaine?

41:32

Correct. Yeah. How did you come to

41:34

meet him and what was the arrangement?

41:37

Sure, Baron, the same way I met,

41:39

look up in here. Through the car

41:41

shops. Yes, correct. Then we had a

41:44

nice sit down, him and I, we

41:46

had a discussion, I said, if

41:48

you want to talk to you. Yeah. And

41:50

what does he say in that meeting? We sit

41:52

down and I explain to him what I can

41:54

do. What can you do? Nothing really, but I

41:56

make it up. What did you say? I say

41:59

I can surveil you. your buildings and

42:01

your locations. And if I know

42:03

of any impending raids, I could

42:06

give you a heads up. I said, well,

42:08

one thing I did say to him, and

42:10

I'll say it on the camera, if

42:12

anybody gets hurt, I'm giving

42:14

myself and you up. Because that's not

42:16

what this is about. We agreed to

42:19

with the terms. I'll do what I

42:21

can for you. I said, I can't

42:23

promise you anything. But I will do

42:25

what I will do for you as

42:28

best that I can. I didn't deserve

42:30

any of it, but whatever. And it

42:32

was more than the President of the

42:34

United States at the time. I mean,

42:37

that's a pretty powerful feeling for a

42:39

civil servant cop. So you couldn't really

42:41

do anything for him? Very little. You

42:43

could do very little for him, but

42:46

you promised him a lot. Yes. And I

42:48

actually performed for him. So he

42:50

originally paid you $24,000? For the

42:52

conversation. Just for the conversation? Correct.

42:55

And then he paid you $8,000 a

42:57

week? Yes. Wow. There was a

42:59

particular time where you did actually

43:01

save him some money. More than once,

43:03

yes. I probably was involved with him

43:06

at this point for about three or

43:08

four weeks. I was able to pick

43:10

off a pending raid that I

43:12

didn't know they were going into his store,

43:14

but I knew there was a raid

43:17

going to his store, but I knew

43:19

there was a raid going to happen.

43:21

So I walked him into the store,

43:23

picked up two Heinekins, opened

43:25

up the He said, I go, shut it down.

43:27

He don't know me, I don't know him,

43:29

but he knows. I walked outside and I

43:31

say within an hour and a half, they were

43:33

hit with a team of 30, 40 narcotics

43:35

detectives. And I don't think

43:38

they found a grammar salt in the

43:40

place. And there was another occasion

43:42

where you saved Adam Diaz. Well,

43:45

that's when they got the robbery

43:47

with Coke and Franklin. So Franklin

43:49

and Coke were the local bandits.

43:51

They robbed all the drug deals,

43:53

because they were just straight up

43:55

killers. They didn't care. And they went to his

43:57

spot and they're not going to kill you if they don't have to

43:59

if you... up the shit. So the kid

44:01

walked him upstairs, Elvis was his name,

44:03

walked him upstairs to the apartment with

44:06

all the drugs and all the money

44:08

in it and they gave as much

44:10

as they could up and someone called

44:12

911 and I hit mark one right

44:14

down there and I pulled that was

44:17

the first car on the scene, I

44:19

jumped out and Elvis goes, Elvis is

44:21

telling me that I just robbed us,

44:23

so I shut it down. We're on

44:26

the scene, no further, I think it's

44:28

a 90 x-ray which means it's unfounded.

44:30

So that would stop the police approaching

44:32

the location. Basically, I have the scene

44:34

closed down. There's a guy upstairs, a

44:37

cop's upstairs, taking shit out. Like cash

44:39

and drugs. The thieves couldn't get at

44:41

all. There was just too much. I

44:43

go, what do you guys do? It's

44:45

crazy how this happens. They go, we

44:48

found, I go, listen, you have a

44:50

search warrant to go in that house?

44:52

The young cop, I'm seeing you guy

44:54

at the scene. And they go, no,

44:56

so what are you doing? What are

44:59

you doing, and you can't just go

45:01

in there, and you can't just go

45:03

in there, and you can't just go

45:05

in there, and take this, and take

45:07

the shit, and take the shit out.

45:10

Technically you can't, but you can't because

45:12

it's an exigent circumstance you're allowed. So

45:14

they got bags of cocaine and money.

45:16

So I got the cops to put

45:18

the cocaine and the money back in

45:21

the fucking house. Don't ask me how,

45:23

but they did it. A quick word

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46:20

and conditions apply. One of your friends

46:22

when you were a cop was called

46:25

Office of Venable and he was shot

46:27

in the head by associates at La

46:29

Campania and you were the first cop

46:31

to arrive on the scene of Office

46:33

of Venable who later died in hospital.

46:36

Correct. And you said that you had

46:38

a lot of guilt over it. Yes.

46:40

Well because it's just the whole thing.

46:42

I was involved in drugs in East

46:44

New York and I was involved in

46:47

protecting drug organizations and now a cop

46:49

that... that I didn't know was killed.

46:51

And that doesn't matter that I didn't

46:53

know him because he's a cop. You

46:55

know, that's, you know, it's not acceptable.

46:58

Just the fact that a cop was

47:00

killed is not acceptable. And now the

47:02

guilt that I lived with was that

47:04

I was protecting people that may have

47:06

either dealt with those people or been

47:09

associated with those people. He killed a

47:11

cop. But they killed a cop. And

47:13

that's, you know, everything's... What does Tyson

47:15

say, everything's, it's all good until some

47:17

punches you in the fucking nose? Well,

47:20

that's like getting punched in the nose,

47:22

like, what am I really doing? It

47:24

was hard to swallow. I mean, I

47:26

don't think, I don't think, there's no

47:28

excuse, but what's the answer to that?

47:31

It's not behavior that, or it's, first

47:33

of all, in East New York, the

47:35

cops are the greatest in the fucking

47:37

world, okay? dealt with the worst scenarios

47:39

that mankind can present. And at that

47:42

point, no cop had ever been killed

47:44

in East New York. Some have been

47:46

shot, some have been injured, but no

47:48

on-duty police officer had been killed ever

47:51

in East New York till that day.

47:53

It's almost like I was connected to

47:55

it. And so it was tough. It

47:57

was tough on me as a human

47:59

being, never mind as a cop that

48:02

was doing wrong. I mean... We allowed

48:04

them to stay in business. Even though

48:06

there was little you could do, the

48:08

fact that you knew what they were

48:10

doing and the fact that you partook

48:13

inside... of the spoils of it, you

48:15

feel that you're directly connected and responsible.

48:17

When you say you feel bad, how

48:19

did that manifest like literally and specifically?

48:21

Well I would say that that's when

48:24

I really took that turn into drugs

48:26

and alcohol more deeply and that's when

48:28

I ended up probably three to six

48:30

months later I ended up in a

48:32

rehab. About six months later I ended

48:35

up in rehab. Were you depressed? What

48:37

a cop does, what I did, was

48:39

I would go in my bathroom, close

48:41

the door, and read the paper and

48:43

cry. Now, I don't deserve any sympathy

48:46

for that. It's just, it was my

48:48

way of letting go of all the

48:50

guilt I was living with throughout my

48:52

career as a cop. You go in

48:54

your bathroom, read the newspaper and cry.

48:57

Yeah. Yeah. Just because it was like

48:59

a way to release all the built

49:01

up... I don't know what the proper

49:03

word is for this at this point.

49:05

Stress, anxiety, guilt. Because I was, I

49:08

knew my internal strife about what I

49:10

was doing was wrong. I was not

49:12

able to publicly grieve. Oh my gosh,

49:14

I'm really feeling bad right now. What

49:16

do I do? You know, I robbed

49:19

drug dealers and I sold some cocaine

49:21

and now there's a cop dead as

49:23

a result of cocaine. Who do I

49:25

tell that to? At

49:28

this time you were on drugs as

49:30

well you were taking drugs. Alcohol and

49:32

drugs at this point. Yeah. Also you

49:35

were losing your marriage. Correct. So I

49:37

want to be accurate on the reason

49:39

I went. Even in spite of losing

49:41

my marriage and my kids and my

49:44

house, it wasn't the driving force. The

49:46

driving force was I was going to

49:48

lose my job. That was the driving

49:50

force. At this point I didn't want

49:53

to lose the job. I'd rather... Leave

49:55

the job on my own terms. than

49:57

lose the job. Who would you become?

50:00

I became the direct results of poor

50:02

decisions and the environment that I was

50:04

in, which I could see looking back

50:06

at the time. I became, whatever was

50:09

in the environment, I became part of

50:11

the environment. I was no different than

50:13

the people that were selling crack cocaine

50:15

or Robin drug deals, because they all

50:18

did each other that way. So a

50:20

lot of people say, well, that's the

50:22

environment they grew up in. You know

50:25

what? I can see that. I can

50:27

relate to that, you know. It doesn't

50:29

excuse the behavior, we all know that.

50:31

It's no excuse to the behavior, but

50:34

I became the environment I was living

50:36

in. If I'd asked your wife at

50:38

the time, what's Mike like as a

50:40

human, what would she have said to

50:43

me at that point when she probably

50:45

would have said he's a lost soul

50:47

and an a soul? It wasn't a

50:50

nice, you become, you become God. Like...

50:52

You get the God complex. Like you

50:54

feel indestructible. But you see yourself declining.

50:56

Like it's the weirdest thing in the

50:59

world. You know you're going down a

51:01

rabbit hole, but the whole time you

51:03

have this false armor on. What's the

51:05

rabbit hole you were going down? Drugs,

51:08

alcohol, women, violence. You know, violence, violence

51:10

is coming. You know, I mean, you're

51:12

turning into a violent... potential killing machine.

51:15

I was going to become the exact

51:17

thing that you would have said you

51:19

don't belong in the street ever in

51:21

your life again. And you went to

51:24

rehab and when you're coming out of

51:26

rehab your intent is to straighten up

51:28

your life? I came home you know

51:30

it was it was it was an

51:33

eye opener because I thought great I'm

51:35

gonna get a fresh start. It turned

51:37

out that... When you become a straight-laced

51:40

guy, when you've been known to be

51:42

corrupt, the process of getting to become

51:44

a police officer in full respect is

51:46

very very difficult, maybe never, it may

51:49

never happen. So in my case, because

51:51

I tried to do the right thing,

51:53

and I'm not trying to, I'm not

51:56

trying to shift responsibility, because I was

51:58

trying to do the right thing, cops

52:00

got nervous, because this isn't the guy

52:02

we heard about, so that means he's

52:05

here to set us up. So when

52:07

you came back from rehab they thought

52:09

you were working as an informant? Correct.

52:11

Yes, very well played. Yes, that's what

52:14

they thought that I was now working

52:16

for the man and I was here

52:18

there to get them. And what did

52:21

that mean in terms of how they

52:23

treated you? So they would be, they

52:25

would shun me, not want to work

52:27

with me, not want to partner with

52:30

me, not want to back me up,

52:32

not invite me to any social gatherings.

52:34

So I was basically an outcast now.

52:36

Well, it meant that you isolated, and

52:39

that you had no camaraderie. You didn't

52:41

have the reason that you enjoyed being

52:43

a cop, because you had brotherhood, camaraderie,

52:46

safety, protection, like any organization that you

52:48

belonged to, you know, and I basically

52:50

didn't have that anymore, and that affected

52:52

me in my decision-making going forward from

52:55

there, so I just couldn't stay stopped.

52:57

It's like being an alcoholic. You can

52:59

stop, but you got to stay stopped.

53:01

Two years. You're in rehab for two

53:04

years. Yeah. Not locked away in rehab,

53:06

but on what they call modified assignment

53:08

for two years. Okay. And you tried

53:11

to resign slash retire from the police

53:13

on disability at one point. Well, I

53:15

was hoping that they would offer it.

53:17

Right. Yeah. The message was being dropped.

53:20

This guy's no good. They're going to

53:22

arrest him soon if he continues on.

53:24

You know, the words to me where

53:26

you're going out one way or the

53:29

other, and it's not through disability. You're

53:31

either getting arrested. You're either getting arrested

53:33

or fired. You're either getting arrested or

53:36

fired. Someone looking at the story would

53:38

probably go, why didn't you, if you

53:40

knew that they were on to you,

53:42

if you knew that they were investigating

53:45

you following you for months and months

53:47

and months, why didn't you just stop?

53:49

You know when the kid goes in.

53:51

to the barn and there's a pile

53:54

of hay and shit in manure and

53:56

someone tells them there's a diamond ring

53:58

in the middle of that pile of

54:01

shit and the kid gets a shovel

54:03

and he starts shoveling looking for that

54:05

diamond ring that's how I that's who

54:07

I am I'm that guy looking for

54:10

that little diamond in that pile of

54:12

shit I'm an optimist you thought it'll

54:14

be okay listen I was in prison

54:16

for Well, I was sentenced to 14

54:19

years, which by the way was a

54:21

pretty fair sentence overall, I guess. And

54:23

every day in prison I thought the

54:26

next day I might go home. And

54:28

I did that for 12 and a

54:30

half years. That's how powerful the mind

54:32

is. I was born in 92, and

54:35

in 92 that's quite a significant year

54:37

for you because this is the year

54:39

you were arrested. Correct. Yeah. What happened

54:42

that day? Take me into that day

54:44

when you were arrested by the police

54:46

department. It's 92. The day after Rodney

54:48

King-Rai, May 4th, May 5th, I had

54:51

just made a deal with Kenny Urel,

54:53

my ex-partner, who was in a cocaine

54:55

business with him, his wife, and his

54:57

friends at the bowling alley. Kenny Urel

55:00

kept calling me up for drugs because

55:02

the price had doubled. And he knew

55:04

that if anyone could get it, I

55:07

could, and I did. So I got

55:09

him a couple of packages of cocaine,

55:11

let's say three or four. In the

55:13

meantime, his phones were tapped. His phones

55:16

were tapped. His phones were tapped. His

55:18

phones were tapped. The following day, I'm

55:20

driving around and my radio's extremely quiet.

55:22

Nine four is quiet anyway, the Williamsburg

55:25

area, but really quiet for less two,

55:27

three days. And I'm getting a little

55:29

suspicious. I just picked up a package

55:32

off with Kenny. I pull up to

55:34

the station house and I see a

55:36

car there, it looks strange, and I

55:38

see two guys in the front seat,

55:41

I walk into the station house, my

55:43

partner, and the desk officer. He points,

55:45

he says, the captain wants to see

55:47

you, in walks these two guys that

55:50

were in the car, that were out

55:52

in front of the precinct, with their

55:54

badges out, Lieutenant, so-and-so, internal affairs, we're

55:57

taking... for a drug test. And sure

55:59

enough, went downstairs, got changed. I couldn't

56:01

even get changed. I couldn't get my

56:03

clothes off. They were so close to

56:06

me. I couldn't bend my knee. It

56:08

was like right up my ass. Like,

56:10

excuse me, guys. And I said, am

56:12

I under arrest? They go, no, no.

56:15

You sure? Because you're roughly close here.

56:17

Anyway. They put me in a car.

56:19

I got in the back of the

56:22

car. I said, I got a smoke.

56:24

I got cocaine in my pocket now

56:26

because I didn't see my clothes. I

56:28

couldn't take it out and leave it

56:31

in my locker with them standing there.

56:33

I go, you guys, can you open

56:35

a window? I'm smoking a cigarette. I'm

56:37

like, look, I'm chain smoking. Yeah, it's

56:40

okay. We'll be on chain smoking. Yeah,

56:42

it's okay. We'll be all right. Are

56:44

you sure. We'll be all the chain

56:47

smoking. Yeah. Yeah. That's smoking. That's smoking.

56:49

That's smoking. It's smoking. It's smoking. I'm

56:51

like, what the fuck is this? For

56:53

a drug test? A little strange. I

56:56

got out of the car, I go,

56:58

I can't dump it here. I can't

57:00

even dump the coke. So I got

57:02

upstairs to the 16th floor, and there's

57:05

the lieutenant who's been waiting for me

57:07

for years. He goes down, how are

57:09

you? I got a good, sir, how

57:12

are you? He's good. He hands me

57:14

to me to cup, go take a

57:16

piss. I hit just on a bump,

57:18

and a fucking bump, and a fucking,

57:21

and a vodka, so I knew I

57:23

knew I was hit. So I was

57:25

hit. I turn around and walks my

57:28

mother's cousin from Suffolk County Police Department.

57:30

She's, uh, Mr. Dowd, you're under arrest

57:32

for conspiracy to distribute narcotics. So did

57:34

you think you were going to jail

57:37

for the rest of your life? Not

57:39

a point. I didn't even take a

57:41

week. I think I'll make bail, I'm

57:43

going to beat the charge. That's how

57:46

I'm thinking. How did it feel when

57:48

you got arrested? It was the biggest

57:50

moment of relief. You know, you asked

57:53

about, uh... life changing, you know, love's

57:55

points. This was the best feeling in

57:57

the world, almost, like almost. Like, I

57:59

was like, finally it's over. It's finally

58:02

over. I can go on with my

58:04

life somehow. I didn't know it would

58:06

take almost 15 years, or even more

58:08

when you think about probation and a

58:11

lot of the shit. You were relieved.

58:13

When I was going to work every

58:15

day, I was going to work with

58:18

anxiety and fear. I no longer had

58:20

to have that fear. It was gone.

58:22

Of course, I didn't know what I

58:24

would be facing. I figured this would

58:27

work out, like that's how I thought.

58:29

You know when you say you're going

58:31

to work with anxiety and fear? You

58:33

said you aren't scared of being arrested,

58:36

scared of being arrested. I wasn't scared

58:38

of being arrested. I was afraid of

58:40

ruining my life. Okay. And living a

58:43

double life, you know, I'm lying to

58:45

my wife, I'm lying to my family,

58:47

I'm lying to the department, I'm lying

58:49

to myself, I'm lying to my young

58:52

child, I'm two children at this point.

58:54

You know, everything's a lie. So, there's

58:56

anxiety and fear in that. The fear

58:58

of arrest really never entered my mind.

59:01

It's funny when you describe being arrested

59:03

and you reference it almost like it

59:05

was your moment of freedom of freedom.

59:08

It was the best thing that ever

59:10

happened to me. If I could capitalize

59:12

and put that in a bottle, the

59:14

peace I had at that moment, I

59:17

could probably live in that peace my

59:19

entire life and wish for that peace,

59:21

the peace that comes over you when

59:23

that pressure comes off your life, because

59:26

I no longer have to live a

59:28

lie. Obviously, most people can't relate. because

59:30

they've never been in such a situation

59:33

where they've been like arrested. But I

59:35

think to some degrees people can relate

59:37

with the feeling of living a life

59:39

that's like inauthentic to them and then

59:42

something happening which forces them to cause

59:44

correct. Yeah, I mean some people kill

59:46

themselves. Other people overcome it and become

59:49

the better version of themselves. Either they

59:51

make lemonade or lemons or they go

59:53

on to become ruinous. And I told

59:55

you, I'm looking for that diamond and

59:58

that pile of shit. So, to me,

1:00:00

it was freedom. How's your child now,

1:00:02

your son? I have two. My oldest

1:00:04

son is... be turning 40 and my

1:00:07

younger son is 33 or 4. So

1:00:09

what advice based on your experience in

1:00:11

that moment would you give to your

1:00:14

kids about living an authentic life and

1:00:16

lying? So it's and you'll know this

1:00:18

from life itself it's it's easier to

1:00:20

tell the truth in the end than

1:00:23

it is to lie because you have

1:00:25

to remember the lies every day and

1:00:27

live with the pressure of being So,

1:00:29

except the hard knocks that come along

1:00:32

with living honestly, and you'll turn out

1:00:34

to be a better person. So, part

1:00:36

of my lesson is, if you don't

1:00:39

have any bumps in the road of

1:00:41

life, you really don't know that much

1:00:43

about life, right? You don't have to

1:00:45

learn how to overcome adversity. So, go

1:00:48

ahead, live a good life, do the

1:00:50

best you can, and if there comes

1:00:52

a point where you want to... Let's

1:00:54

say experiment with something or take risks,

1:00:57

just accept the consequences. If you're going

1:00:59

to stick up a bank, there's going

1:01:01

to be consequences, maybe. And if there

1:01:04

isn't any consequences, it's going to haunt

1:01:06

you. There will eventually be a consequence.

1:01:08

There's always a consequence. Everything has a

1:01:10

cost. I think about that just in

1:01:13

day-to-day interactions, that it's like, it's easier

1:01:15

to have the difficult conversation now versus

1:01:17

avoiding it. You're logical. People that live

1:01:19

in fear of consequences, they don't think

1:01:22

of that. They think of the immediate

1:01:24

consequences, media gratification. Guy wants to get

1:01:26

high because he wants to feel this

1:01:29

now, but he doesn't realize that later

1:01:31

on that cost the consequence to that

1:01:33

job, career, freedom, future, you know, relationships,

1:01:35

all the damage, one incident can cause.

1:01:38

But if you own up to something

1:01:40

immediately and accept the responsibility for it,

1:01:42

people have a choice then. who I

1:01:44

am, you can either interact with me

1:01:47

or not. But I don't have to

1:01:49

have a false front on when I

1:01:51

speak with you or interact with you.

1:01:54

That must be quite a challenge of

1:01:56

future today because you know, you now

1:01:58

go on podcast, you interview, talk about

1:02:00

what happened in your life, and you,

1:02:03

there's a lot of things that you

1:02:05

did that are hard to say, but

1:02:07

you're also battling with this new reality

1:02:09

of being honest about everything. Yes. So

1:02:12

it's not hard for me to say

1:02:14

anymore, because... if you choose to have

1:02:16

a conversation with me about those things,

1:02:19

you're going to hear things that you

1:02:21

may or may not like, but you

1:02:23

chose to be in this conversation. You,

1:02:25

your audience, people that, there's a lot

1:02:28

of people that hate me out there,

1:02:30

but I know this for a fact.

1:02:32

I have people today reaching out to

1:02:35

me that have attempted suicide 10, 15

1:02:37

times. Cops had the gun in their

1:02:39

mouth, and then there's sun walked in

1:02:41

the room, and then I spoke for

1:02:44

them the next day. I mean, I

1:02:46

can go down a list of a

1:02:48

list of list of list of them.

1:02:50

So you never know what being honest

1:02:53

and fully disclosing the tragedy of life

1:02:55

or the experiences of life can do

1:02:57

for the next person. And so that's

1:03:00

really where I'm so happy that I've

1:03:02

been able to do that. I have

1:03:04

a purpose and it keeps me connected.

1:03:06

You know, look, once you're a cop,

1:03:09

you're sort of always a cop in

1:03:11

a way. When there's going to be

1:03:13

cops, he's never was a cop. He's

1:03:15

a bad guy. Well, you know what?

1:03:18

Fuck you. released on bail after that

1:03:20

first arrest, which I think comes to

1:03:22

a lot of people surprised because I

1:03:25

think some people thought that you were

1:03:27

going to be in prison for the

1:03:29

rest of your life. But your family

1:03:31

put up some assets to get you

1:03:34

out on bail. That was a $350,000

1:03:36

bail. It doesn't straighten you up. No.

1:03:38

When I get out on bail, I'm

1:03:40

clear-headed, but I don't know what to

1:03:43

do because I've never been in this

1:03:45

situation. I don't stop paying the rent.

1:03:47

because they saw I was arrested. Now

1:03:50

I'm back in the chase again to

1:03:52

try to get my life back together

1:03:54

and then... it turns into a whole

1:03:56

new scenario comes my way. I'm out

1:03:59

on bail. I end up making a

1:04:01

plan to go to Nicaragua if they

1:04:03

could become a shrimp fisherman. Wait, let's

1:04:05

pause there a second. So you're out

1:04:08

on bail and you plan to escape

1:04:10

the US? Yes. Which means that you'd

1:04:12

be escaping your charges. Correct. But I

1:04:15

can't go if I don't pay my

1:04:17

family back. I can't leave them homeless.

1:04:19

Okay, so when you go out on

1:04:21

bail, your family are basically guaranteeing the

1:04:24

money. the money. So if you don't

1:04:26

return from bail. They got to sell

1:04:28

their homes to pay my bill. They've

1:04:30

got to get $350,000. So what you

1:04:33

want to do is you want to

1:04:35

get $350,000, give it to your family.

1:04:37

Correct. So that you can escape the

1:04:40

US. Correct. Okay. Yes. And how do

1:04:42

you plan to get that $350,000? There's

1:04:44

a scenario comes my way. There's a

1:04:46

woman that owes the struggle organization, half

1:04:49

a million in cash and 10 kilos.

1:04:51

All we have to do is go

1:04:53

get the money from her and the

1:04:55

drugs and I could pay my family

1:04:58

back and I can leave the country

1:05:00

and Kenny's going to join me. My

1:05:02

partner's back in. But that wasn't the

1:05:05

plan. The plan was never to kidnap

1:05:07

her. The plan was to go on

1:05:09

with some flowers. Push

1:05:11

her out of the way, take the

1:05:14

money and the drugs. But Kenny was

1:05:16

working for the federal government right now,

1:05:18

we're on a wire. He called me

1:05:20

up to the drugs that brought me

1:05:23

into his conspiracy, and they made me

1:05:25

the kingpin of his conspiracy. How long

1:05:27

did you know Kenny? I had known

1:05:30

Kenny since 1985, so now it's 1992.

1:05:32

So you've known him a long time?

1:05:34

Seven years. You've been friends a long

1:05:37

time? Yes. And Kenny intentionally? Where's the

1:05:39

wire? Correct. And pulls you into a

1:05:41

conspiracy. Correct. Working with the police? With

1:05:44

the federal government, yes. Where they're trying

1:05:46

to get you to potentially kidnap this

1:05:48

woman, steals her stuff. Correct. And leave

1:05:51

the country. So what does that do?

1:05:53

That makes me, it takes me from

1:05:55

a low-life drug dealer to a all-life

1:05:58

kidnapping murderer guy. So then I'll never

1:06:00

go home. You see? You see how

1:06:02

they're good? They're good. They take you

1:06:05

from being a drug deal who's going

1:06:07

to get 15, 20 years to a

1:06:09

murderer. You took the bait though? Took

1:06:12

the bait. Swell it like a pig.

1:06:14

So you've left jail. You're out on

1:06:16

bail. Kenny starts putting in your head

1:06:19

this idea of potentially kidnapping or stealing

1:06:21

from this woman. You don't know he's

1:06:23

working for the police. And on the

1:06:26

day of this attempted kidnap slash robbery,

1:06:28

you're arrested. Correct. Again. Again. Again. And

1:06:30

how does it feel the second time

1:06:33

you're arrested? Relief again? No. Now I'm

1:06:35

angry. Now I'm pissed off. I'm pissed

1:06:37

off because I'm you got to realize

1:06:40

I'm a rat in a corner trying

1:06:42

to get out. You throw some cheese

1:06:44

in front of me. I go and

1:06:47

eat the cheese and then you poison

1:06:49

the cheese, which is Kenny bringing the

1:06:51

fucking poison pill to me of this.

1:06:54

did that big theory that unfolds. Why

1:06:56

did you take the bait there? Why

1:06:58

didn't you just, because you talked to

1:07:01

me, you said you had relief when

1:07:03

you arrested that first time. That's the

1:07:05

dichotomy of this whole thing. It was

1:07:08

the greatest relief of my life, but

1:07:10

I jumped back in like a fool.

1:07:12

It was, you know, the word fear

1:07:15

always comes out first for me. Fear

1:07:17

of not being able to provide from

1:07:19

now I got a wife and two

1:07:22

kids. Because I was told I'm getting

1:07:24

25 to life to life by the

1:07:26

state of New York. That'll

1:07:29

make anybody consider running. I don't

1:07:31

give a fuck of a year.

1:07:33

Now you're a police officer in

1:07:35

your 30s, 25 to life. You

1:07:37

know, you're getting 25. So maybe

1:07:39

30. So now I'm 30-something years

1:07:41

old. If I get out at

1:07:43

60, maybe, if I live through

1:07:45

it, I'm looking to go. Bottom

1:07:47

line. Now whatever opportunity comes along,

1:07:49

I'm looking to hit on it.

1:07:51

Whatever I can do. So I'm

1:07:53

like that fish, the danglett bait

1:07:55

bait. Eventually a fish is going

1:07:57

to bite. Yes, because I... got

1:07:59

arrested. Because I got arrested. Eventually

1:08:01

you're convicted of racketeering, organized, which

1:08:03

is basically an organized crime scheme

1:08:05

and conspiracy to distribute narcotics. You

1:08:07

serve 12 years and five months

1:08:09

in prison. That day you went

1:08:11

to prison. If I'd asked you

1:08:14

how long do you think you're

1:08:16

going to be here, what would

1:08:18

you have said? So when I

1:08:20

was sitting there waiting to get

1:08:22

sentenced, I'm thinking only get seven,

1:08:24

eight years. And sure enough, she...

1:08:26

was firm and gave me what

1:08:28

she thought I deserved. Mr. Dow,

1:08:30

that's 168 months. So I'm going,

1:08:32

what the fuck, 168 months? And

1:08:34

she knew it. She goes, that's

1:08:36

14 years. How did you feel

1:08:38

when you heard that? I was

1:08:40

devastated. I was devastated. You don't

1:08:42

know how you're going to react.

1:08:44

I was pissed. And devastated. I

1:08:46

got to survive this. Like, now

1:08:48

you go right into survival mode.

1:08:50

I got to survive this. And

1:08:52

how am I going to do

1:08:54

that? People often think if you're

1:08:56

like a cop and you get

1:08:58

sent to prison, that you're going

1:09:00

to have a really hard time.

1:09:02

Sure. Did you have a hard

1:09:04

time? Yeah. But I was fortunate

1:09:06

enough that, see, I went to

1:09:08

prison as basically a racketeer, right?

1:09:11

So, and I worked with the

1:09:13

Dominican drug gangs. 30% of the

1:09:15

population is Dominican slash Puerto Rican

1:09:17

drug dealers in that realm. Then

1:09:19

you have... your street peddlers which

1:09:21

wouldn't be the same level, and

1:09:23

then you have your white collar

1:09:25

guys and your bank robbers. So

1:09:27

I was a cop, I was

1:09:29

sent to prison as a police

1:09:31

officer for violating human rights for

1:09:33

beating and abusing individuals. I was

1:09:35

sent to prison for doing what

1:09:37

everybody else in there was doing.

1:09:39

So the landing was a little

1:09:41

bit different to me. Now don't

1:09:43

say it was not easy. I

1:09:45

didn't have people opening a welcome

1:09:47

mat for me. But there were

1:09:49

some people who were kind and

1:09:51

that helped make my bid go

1:09:53

well. No matter where I am

1:09:55

in the world, it seems like

1:09:57

everyone is drinking matcher. And there's

1:09:59

a good chance that that matcher

1:10:01

you're drinking is made... by a

1:10:03

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1:11:00

can get 40% off your first

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order using code diary 40. What

1:11:05

about your family at this point?

1:11:07

Your mom and dad? Right. Okay.

1:11:09

I'm Carol Doud. And I'm Michael

1:11:11

Doud's mother. Well, I

1:11:13

remember being in court, I

1:11:15

only went to court once

1:11:17

and that was the day

1:11:19

of sentencing. And when they

1:11:21

said the amount of days

1:11:23

he would be away, I

1:11:25

didn't really, it didn't like

1:11:27

hit my mind, right? Because

1:11:30

it was in days, it

1:11:32

wasn't in years, you know,

1:11:34

and somebody says that could

1:11:36

be 15 years. We tried

1:11:38

to deal with it the

1:11:40

best we could. when I

1:11:42

saw him I guess my

1:11:44

first reaction was I love

1:11:46

him but I want to

1:11:49

just reach into the bars

1:11:51

that you between us and

1:11:53

say what did you do

1:11:55

this for you know I

1:11:57

can I can only imagine

1:11:59

yeah the the emotions that

1:12:01

must go through your head

1:12:03

when you when you find

1:12:05

out something like that. Yeah,

1:12:08

it's terrible. Believe me, it's

1:12:10

terrible, especially when you think

1:12:12

you're dealing with something else.

1:12:14

You're dealing with a kid

1:12:16

who was honest and reliable

1:12:18

and smart and good. Absolutely

1:12:20

shocked. I was angry. Very

1:12:22

angry at him. How could

1:12:24

you do this? You know,

1:12:26

that type of thing. She

1:12:29

took eight months to come

1:12:31

see me. Eight months. And

1:12:33

then she finally came and

1:12:35

she didn't want to let

1:12:37

me go. You know, that

1:12:39

was tough. She had, she

1:12:41

went to church every day.

1:12:43

Twelve years. Why

1:13:29

do you think that moved

1:13:31

him so much? I don't

1:13:33

think he ever really sits

1:13:35

back and thinks about the

1:13:37

other people. You know, the

1:13:39

other people in his life,

1:13:41

his father, his mother, his

1:13:43

family. It was all about

1:13:45

him. It wasn't about anybody

1:13:47

else around him. How does

1:13:49

that make you feel when

1:13:51

you see him? It made

1:13:53

me feel glad that he

1:13:55

felt sorry. Because

1:13:58

he never really says this

1:14:00

in front of him. But

1:14:02

it made me feel glad

1:14:04

that he remembered that I

1:14:06

went to church and prayed

1:14:09

for him. He had good

1:14:11

parents, believe me, and I

1:14:13

don't know why this happened

1:14:15

to him. He was a

1:14:17

skinny little kid on the

1:14:20

corner with a police uniform

1:14:22

on and the authority, I

1:14:24

guess, went to his head.

1:14:26

Sure. You know. The

1:14:31

weather vain and

1:14:33

what's right and

1:14:35

wrong, right? Mm.

1:14:38

I fought with

1:14:40

my mother my

1:14:42

whole fucking life.

1:14:45

She always kept

1:14:47

me on track

1:14:50

and I tried.

1:14:52

Yeah, she's tough.

1:14:54

She's still tough.

1:14:57

She's still tough.

1:15:00

It's so interesting to see

1:15:02

that emotion because it really

1:15:04

tells me a lot about

1:15:07

the relationship you have with

1:15:09

this woman. I don't even

1:15:11

know this woman, but I

1:15:13

can see the relationship. We

1:15:16

fight every fucking taste. My

1:15:18

father leaves the room, but

1:15:20

we get... It's like, you

1:15:22

guys are always fighting. That's

1:15:25

what your mother does. Because

1:15:27

she's the one who keeps

1:15:29

you to the mat, you

1:15:31

know, she puts you on

1:15:34

the mat. My father, that's

1:15:36

okay, we'll get over it.

1:15:38

But my mother, she holds

1:15:40

you to account. Mother holds

1:15:43

you to account. But she

1:15:45

loves you still. She went

1:15:47

to church for every day.

1:15:49

I never knew that. I

1:15:51

only found that. I'm up

1:15:54

for 20 years. She only

1:15:56

told me that I'm about

1:15:58

a year ago. What?

1:16:02

Why does that move you so

1:16:05

much to find that out? She

1:16:07

went to church every day when

1:16:09

you were in jail? Because my

1:16:12

mother's not very lovey-dovey. I, uh,

1:16:14

she's not, and, uh, because my

1:16:16

father was, you know, but, you

1:16:19

know, when you're raised by, my

1:16:21

mother was raised by nuns, you

1:16:23

know, very cold, calculating, definitely she

1:16:25

had a lot. I mean, there's

1:16:28

something to go to church every

1:16:30

fucking day. They must really love

1:16:32

you. Yeah, just be for itself.

1:16:35

You know, I had to have

1:16:37

some discipline raising that many children.

1:16:39

You have to have discipline. And

1:16:42

of course, you kiss them good

1:16:44

night. You kiss them goodbye. You

1:16:46

love them. But my showing my

1:16:48

love was like making them breakfast.

1:16:51

I ate them breakfast, you know.

1:16:53

So that was kind of a

1:16:55

way to show you love. You

1:16:58

know, I was here for them

1:17:00

all the time, but I was

1:17:02

not, I was not mushy, you

1:17:05

know, and he's right. It was

1:17:07

hard for him to understand what

1:17:09

I was going through because I

1:17:12

never showed my emotions to them.

1:17:14

The only emotions they would get

1:17:16

is get up in the room

1:17:18

and clean it up. Get upstairs

1:17:21

you and hang those clothes up.

1:17:23

You know, so there was always

1:17:25

that direction. So I was pretty

1:17:28

tough. But that's the way I

1:17:30

am. I think because of the

1:17:32

way I was raised. I didn't

1:17:35

have a happy childhood. But that's,

1:17:37

you know, that could be a

1:17:39

reason why I was tough. But

1:17:41

I was tough. Maybe I was

1:17:44

too tough. What is that range

1:17:46

of emotions you feel about them

1:17:48

now in the wake of all

1:17:51

of this? That they persevered. They

1:17:53

persevered when I didn't think much

1:17:55

of their travails that they were

1:17:58

going through. I wish I could

1:18:00

be them. to my kids. When

1:18:02

I reflect on it, I'm like,

1:18:05

I'm not there, I can never

1:18:07

be there, I just can't. But

1:18:09

yeah, it's really heavy for me.

1:18:11

I don't think that, I don't

1:18:14

think anybody asked me that question

1:18:16

before, because that's really, I mean,

1:18:18

I'm 64 years old, my parents

1:18:21

are 80s, you know, days on

1:18:23

this earth, I've been for all

1:18:25

of us, and we don't know

1:18:28

when the next one's going to

1:18:30

come or not, or not, and

1:18:32

with them. I call them almost

1:18:34

every day just to see, you

1:18:37

know, hear their voice, make sure.

1:18:39

Check, you know, everything good? Yeah,

1:18:41

okay. Is there guilt associated with

1:18:44

them in particular? Um, I don't

1:18:46

even know what guilt is anymore

1:18:48

sometimes. I just think it's... I

1:18:51

have compassion. for what they've had

1:18:53

to deal with. So if you

1:18:55

can translate that to guilt, I

1:18:58

guess so. But for me, it's

1:19:00

more like, that's amazing what they

1:19:02

did and what they still do.

1:19:04

Like, maybe there's a sense of

1:19:07

pride and maybe some shame. There's

1:19:09

another gratitude there. I am so

1:19:11

grateful, like, be it. That would

1:19:14

be the best way to describe,

1:19:16

yeah, because I didn't have that.

1:19:18

for my parents growing up, because

1:19:21

I was the one. I was

1:19:23

the star. I was going to

1:19:25

break my family. a place and

1:19:27

in the end it came back

1:19:30

to the people that I was

1:19:32

always told not to be like

1:19:34

don't be like dad be somebody

1:19:37

else you know my mother she

1:19:39

came from a broken home don't

1:19:41

be like don't be like your

1:19:44

mother be like somebody else but

1:19:46

these are the perfect people it

1:19:48

all comes back to them really

1:19:51

if you think about it without

1:19:53

them I'd be in I'd be

1:19:55

inside you Prison after jail after

1:19:57

13 or years You were 43

1:20:00

years old. Yeah, you left. Yeah,

1:20:02

I'm gonna say I was 44

1:20:04

actually when I stepped out the

1:20:07

door. Yeah, she stepped out the

1:20:09

door of 44 years old and

1:20:11

you went back home Yes, right?

1:20:14

Yeah, to their house. To their

1:20:16

house. Yeah, that's you know quite

1:20:18

the story. I looked out the

1:20:20

window I saw my my brother's

1:20:23

two kids. I didn't know their

1:20:25

names And I'm looking at these

1:20:27

two kids. Those are my nephews.

1:20:30

I don't even know who they

1:20:32

are I don't know their names.

1:20:34

And then you see the tears

1:20:37

flowing? That's 10 times the first

1:20:39

shower I took in freedom. And

1:20:41

I didn't know if it was

1:20:44

the water or my tears that

1:20:46

were cascading over me. That's no

1:20:48

exaggerations. I had to rebuild a

1:20:50

life from there. But without doubt.

1:20:53

And that shower. without that moment

1:20:55

of realizing the loss. See, people

1:20:57

don't realize the loss. The loss

1:21:00

is from the time you graduated

1:21:02

high school and finished two and

1:21:04

a half years of college, you

1:21:07

left that, and then there's the

1:21:09

next 20, fucking something years of

1:21:11

your life. Zero. Is a zero?

1:21:13

You know, that's the, you come

1:21:16

out to zero. You are zero.

1:21:18

Like, what we all measure ourselves

1:21:20

by what we've gained over life.

1:21:23

I don't have a car. I

1:21:25

don't have a dollar. I don't

1:21:27

have any clothes. I have nothing.

1:21:30

And now I'm 44 years old.

1:21:32

But I had two wonderful people.

1:21:34

Your mom and your dad? Yeah.

1:21:37

Not everybody. get that. Did you

1:21:39

want to go back to prison?

1:21:41

Yes. When you came out? When

1:21:43

I first came home. Yeah. Because

1:21:46

people talk about being institutionalized where

1:21:48

prison becomes home and comfort and

1:21:50

familiarity. Yeah. Was that the case

1:21:53

for you? Yes. When I first

1:21:55

came home I didn't even know

1:21:57

how to order a hot dog.

1:22:00

I didn't know how. I didn't

1:22:02

know how to articulate for society.

1:22:04

That same moment I came out

1:22:06

of the shower and I stood

1:22:09

there and I stood. Forget about

1:22:11

getting a job when you come

1:22:13

out of prison. That's like almost

1:22:16

impossible. Just so you know. Like,

1:22:18

there's no bullshit. It's almost impossible

1:22:20

to get a job in your

1:22:23

home for prison. Now you're a

1:22:25

dirty cop. Who the fuck wants

1:22:27

to hire a dirty cop? You're

1:22:30

disparaged. The public's trust. You robbed

1:22:32

drug dealers. You sold drugs. You

1:22:34

did cocaine. Oh, did you want

1:22:36

to hire me? You didn't know

1:22:39

your kids when you came out.

1:22:41

I didn't know your kids. Five

1:22:43

and a half, he went to

1:22:46

college. My other son was 11

1:22:48

months and he was going into

1:22:50

second year high school by the

1:22:53

time I don't have to see

1:22:55

him. Well, first year high school.

1:22:57

So I didn't know them. So

1:22:59

that was a tough situation to

1:23:02

walk into and yeah. You tried

1:23:04

to get a job as a

1:23:06

handyman thereafter. Eventually you go on

1:23:09

to be approached to make a

1:23:11

documentary about your life called The

1:23:13

Seven Five Documentary, which explains your

1:23:16

life in more detail and everything

1:23:18

that happened. And the documentary was

1:23:20

centering on the Mullen Commission, which

1:23:23

was a commission set up in

1:23:25

New York by the mayor at

1:23:27

the time to assess the extent

1:23:29

of corruption in the NYPD. Correct.

1:23:32

And before you were arrested there

1:23:34

were 16 complaints that had been

1:23:36

made against you in the years

1:23:39

to the Internal Affairs Bureau. You

1:23:41

didn't provide any names at the

1:23:43

Mullen Commission. You said at the

1:23:46

time, if I speak before your

1:23:48

commission, a lot of cops are

1:23:50

going to commit suicide. Yes, that's

1:23:52

correct. And during those hearings at

1:23:55

that commission you admitted to hundreds

1:23:57

of crimes but... later, you said

1:23:59

it's probably more like thousands in

1:24:02

the context of that. Correct. And

1:24:04

in that commission you admitted that

1:24:06

both police and drug dealers were

1:24:09

your employees and as a result

1:24:11

of this commission 200 officers were

1:24:13

arrested for drug trafficking. Correct. So that

1:24:15

commission was a huge moment back in

1:24:18

1992 where things really... Yeah, the commission

1:24:20

actually took place in 93, but yes,

1:24:22

in association to my arrest, yes. And

1:24:25

that was 10 years ago roughly. Yes,

1:24:27

so that was 2000. 15. If I

1:24:29

went back and I spoke to Mike

1:24:31

at, let's say, 18 years old, what

1:24:34

was like the most important

1:24:36

thing that he needed to hear

1:24:39

that he didn't hear? What was,

1:24:41

what would you, if you could

1:24:43

teleport back now and whisper in

1:24:46

his ear, what would you say

1:24:48

to him? Yeah, well, you know, maybe

1:24:50

I would, I'm proud of you and

1:24:52

I love you, you know, I'm proud

1:24:54

of you and I love you. It's

1:25:00

simple, two words. Why

1:25:03

didn't he need to hear

1:25:05

that? What would that have

1:25:07

changed? Well, because we

1:25:09

never know that we're doing

1:25:11

enough. And to be full

1:25:14

of pride can be

1:25:16

damaging. But for others to

1:25:18

be proud of you, like

1:25:20

you wonder, what did I do?

1:25:22

That would give you a sense of

1:25:25

pride on my behalf, let's say. Why

1:25:27

would you be proud of me? Well,

1:25:29

because I like the way you handle

1:25:32

people. You go out of your way,

1:25:34

you know, which is both showing love

1:25:36

and it's a reason for you and

1:25:38

friends to be proud of mine.

1:25:40

Why? Because he sacrifices of himself

1:25:43

for others. Like, that's sort of

1:25:45

in my nature, I guess, to

1:25:47

begin with. Did you feel like

1:25:49

anyone was proud of you at

1:25:51

that age? You

1:25:55

know you get back to my mother, okay? You

1:25:57

get me back to my mother stuff, and I've

1:25:59

always been seeking my mother's approval for

1:26:01

some reason. My dad was always pretty

1:26:04

proud of me, you know. And do

1:26:06

you think that if someone had said

1:26:08

that to you at 18 years old

1:26:10

that they're proud of you that they

1:26:12

loved you, do you think it's likely

1:26:15

that you wouldn't have made the decisions

1:26:17

you then went on to make? I

1:26:19

think, so one time hearing that would

1:26:21

do nothing for anybody. But if that's

1:26:23

what you felt, to be felt, to

1:26:25

be constantly reassured, I think that that

1:26:28

could make some significant changes in any

1:26:30

person. Because as I'm thinking of thinking

1:26:32

it through. I've always was seeking my

1:26:34

mother's approval. I mean, every problem I

1:26:36

ever fucking had with the woman, I

1:26:39

would always like profess my mother's, I

1:26:41

don't have my mother's approval. Somehow it

1:26:43

would come out. I'm disappointing my mother.

1:26:45

And that never has had left me.

1:26:47

I think now I'm okay. My mom

1:26:50

and I are pretty cool. You know,

1:26:52

when she told me she was praying

1:26:54

for me every day, I'm like, I

1:26:56

didn't think you like me. You know?

1:26:58

So, yeah. So. Does this corruption still

1:27:01

go on in the police department? Yeah,

1:27:03

it's massive. So it's still happening now?

1:27:05

It's massive. It's just everything changes, but

1:27:07

it's still corruption. And so when I

1:27:09

was a corrupt police officer, the corruption

1:27:12

was at the lower level, because it

1:27:14

was a street level corruption. Today, it's

1:27:16

all up at the top, and it's

1:27:18

plenty of it. It's all about big

1:27:20

budgets and money. Power. Do you think

1:27:23

they'll always... Listen. They had the girl

1:27:25

bend over and get taken up the

1:27:27

ass, take it up the ass. Excuse.

1:27:29

Excuse. Excuse. Excuse. Excuse. Excuse. Excuse. Excuse.

1:27:31

Excuse. Excuse. Excuse. Excuse. Excuse. The police

1:27:34

chief did what grabbed the loop from

1:27:36

his location bent the girl over the

1:27:38

couch and fucked her in the ass

1:27:40

Recently yes And he was paying her

1:27:42

for it On overtime who was this

1:27:45

this was a sex worker or this

1:27:47

is a fucking lieutenant. Oh, so the

1:27:49

chief was having sex with the lieutenant.

1:27:51

Yeah, because she needed money with the

1:27:53

lieutenant Yeah, because she needed money to

1:27:56

pay her bills Oh,

1:27:58

okay. Okay.

1:28:00

He gave her $200,000 in overtime

1:28:02

pay. This is what goes on.

1:28:04

That's the corruption that goes on

1:28:06

today. Do you think there's still

1:28:09

drug corruption going on with drugs

1:28:11

and drug dealers and stuff like

1:28:13

that? Not to the extent that

1:28:15

it was. No, but there's always

1:28:17

some... It's always... Here's how it's

1:28:20

today. Corruption is today. Hit and

1:28:22

miss. Scores. Opportunity. There's no systematic

1:28:24

corruption today. There may be a

1:28:26

few... There may be a

1:28:28

few, but very few. When you say

1:28:31

scores, you mean cops showing up at

1:28:33

some way of finding something. And finding

1:28:35

something to take it. Like, that would

1:28:37

be the corruption you would run in

1:28:39

today more than anything else. In that

1:28:41

kind of level of corruption. But systematic

1:28:44

corruption of the bureaucracy itself is massive.

1:28:46

What was the most you, you, how

1:28:48

much money you made in a day,

1:28:50

you said it's 40,000? 40,000. Yeah. And

1:28:52

was that the... Yeah, the funny thing

1:28:54

is I could have made $150,000 if

1:28:57

Diaz said I should have took the

1:28:59

money from... From that robbery where they

1:29:01

left the money behind it? So you

1:29:03

should have took that money. At least

1:29:05

I know someone would have got it.

1:29:07

Because then the cops got it. Wow.

1:29:09

Yeah, so, so yeah, so I mean,

1:29:12

there's a thousand stories in that city.

1:29:14

Every day was a... It's like being

1:29:16

in a movie, but you're just, you're

1:29:18

actually part of it. Every, every, you

1:29:20

know, you know, you know, you know,

1:29:22

you know, you know, you know, you

1:29:25

know, you know, you know, you know,

1:29:27

you know, you know, you know, you

1:29:29

know, it's just, it's just, it's just

1:29:31

insane. It's just insane. It's just insane.

1:29:33

It's just insane. It's just insane. It's

1:29:35

just insane. It's just insane. I loved

1:29:37

being a police officer. I didn't think

1:29:40

that I would. It's the greatest job

1:29:42

in the world if you have the

1:29:44

support that you need. You can have

1:29:46

a wonderful day as a police officer.

1:29:48

You can have a horrible day. But

1:29:50

in the end, all you really want

1:29:53

is love. Don't we all? Mike, we

1:29:55

have a closing tradition on this podcast

1:29:57

where the last guest leaves a question

1:29:59

for the next guest not knowing who

1:30:01

they're leaving it for. And the question

1:30:03

that's been left for you. that the

1:30:05

universe, life or God, has put you

1:30:08

here to share? Well, if you're not

1:30:10

mine... I'm going to say it again,

1:30:12

and I said it on the sore

1:30:14

fight on the belly. Just, just, everybody

1:30:16

needs more love. Just love, just love

1:30:18

each other. Listen. Just listen to your

1:30:21

friends, listen to your neighbors. Just listen,

1:30:23

patient, love. Why? You'll find that we

1:30:25

have more in common than we don't.

1:30:29

Mike, thank you. It's been an absolute

1:30:31

pleasure speaking to you. And I mean,

1:30:33

what an incredible life you have lived.

1:30:35

Incredible isn't a very intentional word there,

1:30:37

because you're right. It does sound like

1:30:39

it's a movie, effectively. It sounds like

1:30:41

you, some of the stories that you've

1:30:43

told and the things you've been through

1:30:45

are unthinkable. But in the context of

1:30:47

the human side of everything you've shared,

1:30:49

it also makes sense. You know, we

1:30:51

go through experiences in our lives, and

1:30:53

we can kind of take one or

1:30:55

two roots or two roots. the experience

1:30:57

you went through, the love you did

1:30:59

or didn't have, the words that went,

1:31:01

said, or unsaid, can take any of

1:31:03

us in any direction. And even me

1:31:05

sat here today. There were moments in

1:31:07

my early life where I remember a

1:31:10

friend turning around to me and saying

1:31:12

to me one day, he said, you're

1:31:14

either going to be a millionaire or

1:31:16

a criminal. He's one of my best

1:31:18

friends. It was my friend Joe. I

1:31:20

remember exactly where I stood when I

1:31:22

stood when he said it because I

1:31:24

knew it was the truth. that desperation

1:31:26

would take me to great lengths. And

1:31:28

those great lengths, especially when you're a

1:31:30

young man and you don't understand consequence

1:31:32

in the same way, those great lengths

1:31:34

can trip you over any kind of

1:31:36

moral barrier. Fortunately, I was really scared.

1:31:38

So I was scared of... That's a

1:31:40

lesson. Yes. Yeah, I was. And there

1:31:42

was early parts of my career where

1:31:44

I was offered opportunities to go in

1:31:46

a certain direction, especially when I dropped

1:31:48

out of university. And they explained to

1:31:50

me, you know, the situation. and I

1:31:52

was too scared to take up on

1:31:54

the offer and actually the path of

1:31:56

least resistance for me was going into

1:31:58

business and building businesses and doing those

1:32:00

kinds of things but it all stemmed

1:32:02

from an underlying probably insecurity but also

1:32:04

fear yeah and desperate and just like

1:32:06

desperately wanting to live a better life

1:32:08

and kind of like what you said

1:32:10

about your parents desperately wanting to be

1:32:12

more you know if you think about

1:32:15

business on entrepreneurship as well it is

1:32:17

like self punishment a huge risk, huge

1:32:19

punishment, great uncertainty. So to do such

1:32:21

a thing, to start a company, to

1:32:23

take that big of a risk, there's

1:32:25

going to have to be a pretty

1:32:27

strong macro tailwind driving force that's making

1:32:29

you do that. And a lot of

1:32:31

the time having sat here with CEOs

1:32:33

and founders and people that have achieved

1:32:35

great success, it's much of what you've

1:32:37

described. It's maybe a parent that didn't

1:32:39

love me enough. It's maybe... living in

1:32:41

your father's footsteps, it's maybe being bullied

1:32:43

in school, it's maybe being told you

1:32:45

aren't good enough in some way. And

1:32:47

that's the escape velocity that propels us

1:32:49

into a better or worse life. Yeah.

1:32:51

Thank you so much Mike. I really

1:32:53

really appreciate it. What a journey. We

1:32:55

launched these conversation cards and they sold

1:32:57

out. And we launched them again and

1:32:59

they sold out again. Because people love

1:33:01

playing these with colleagues at work, with

1:33:03

friends at home, and with friends at

1:33:05

home, and also with family. And we've

1:33:07

also got a big audience that a

1:33:09

big audience that use them as journal

1:33:11

prompts. Every single time a guest comes

1:33:13

on the diary of a CEO, they

1:33:15

leave a question for the next guest

1:33:17

in the diary. And I've sat here

1:33:20

with some of the most incredible people

1:33:22

in the world. And they've left all

1:33:24

of these questions in the diary. And

1:33:26

I've ranked them from one to three

1:33:28

in terms of the depth, one being

1:33:30

a starter question. And level three, if

1:33:32

you look on the back here, this

1:33:34

is a level three, becomes a much

1:33:36

deeper question that builds even more connection.

1:33:38

If you turn the cards over... and

1:33:40

you scan that QR code, you can

1:33:42

see who answered the card and watch

1:33:44

the video of them answering it in

1:33:46

real time. So if you would like

1:33:48

to get your hands on some of

1:33:50

these conversation cards, go to the diary.com

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or look at the link in the

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description below.