0:00

This is a critical conversation around

0:02

truly the future of humanity. But

0:04

we don't like to talk about this. This

0:06

report is absolutely shocking. This is a

0:08

crisis and young men are struggling. So I

0:11

sat down with two leading voices on

0:13

societal issues to discuss the rise of millions

0:15

of lonely addicted men. And the most

0:17

important question is how do we fix this?

0:19

So let's start with this graph. It

0:21

shows that young women are now out earning

0:23

young men. It is true. We have given

0:25

women so many tools to achieve, but now

0:28

boys are being left behind. And that the

0:30

number of males aged 16 to 24 were

0:32

not an educational employment has increased by a

0:34

staggering 40 percent. And the data I've seen

0:36

is that when the woman in the relationship

0:39

starts making more money, they become twice as

0:41

likely to get divorce. Because traditionally women

0:43

seek partners who have more economic or

0:45

social status than they do. And emotional

0:48

intelligence is the new currency in dating.

0:50

But these guys were raised not to

0:52

be emotionally intelligent, but to be a

0:54

provider. that a lack of male involvement in

0:56

his lives is a big factor leading to

0:59

this. And once they lose a male role

1:01

model, they become much more likely to

1:03

engage in criminal activity. And so we

1:05

are just creating a lot of these

1:07

angry, young, single men who are saying,

1:10

well, this is rigged against me. We

1:12

actually have an awesome audience to write

1:14

in and this guy Jeffrey wrote in

1:16

and said, my entire life, I have

1:18

never felt like I was good enough.

1:21

Like I could never earn my place

1:23

in society. It's devastating. It's devastating. Honestly,

1:25

what I would do is. Honestly, what

1:27

I would do is... I

1:31

find it incredibly fascinating that when we look

1:33

at the back end of Spotify and Apple

1:35

and our audio channels, the majority of people

1:37

that watch this podcast haven't yet hit the

1:39

follow button or the subscribe button, wherever you're

1:41

listening to this, I would like to make

1:44

a deal with this, I would like to

1:46

make a deal with you. If you could

1:48

do me a huge favour and hit that

1:50

subscribe button, I will work tirelessly from now

1:52

until forever to make the show better and

1:54

better and better and better and better. I

1:56

can't tell you how much it helps when

1:58

you want to see. and continue to do

2:01

in this thing we love. If you

2:03

could do me that small favour and

2:05

hit the follow button, wherever you're listening

2:07

to this, that would mean the world to

2:09

me. That is the only favour I will

2:11

ever ask you. Thank you so much for

2:13

your time. Lost Boys. In March 2025, the

2:16

Centre of Social Justice released this

2:18

report which has sent a couple

2:20

of shockwaves across the UK, especially

2:22

across the media, and just to

2:24

give you a little bit of a sort

2:26

of... preface in some context on

2:28

what this report says. At the start

2:31

of the report, Andy Cook, who's the

2:33

CEO of the report, says, we listen

2:35

to those working on the front line,

2:37

the teachers, the youth workers, the charities,

2:40

and the parents who, they and they

2:42

out, see the struggles of young people.

2:44

And in recent years, they've been telling

2:46

us the same thing. Something is

2:48

going on with our boys. And because

2:50

of this, they wrote this report called

2:52

the Lost Boys, which looks at all

2:55

of the different facets of why. they're

2:57

more likely to take their own lives.

2:59

They're finding it more difficult to

3:01

find stable work and far too often

3:03

they're caught in crime. The numbers don't

3:05

lie. Something has shifted and we cannot

3:07

ignore it any longer. It's not just

3:09

about and you take or online influences.

3:11

These are symptoms, not the cause. The

3:13

deeper truth is that too many boys

3:16

are growing up without the guidance, discipline

3:18

and purpose they need to survive. And

3:20

there's some frankly horrific graphs, which

3:22

actually sent the CEO of my company,

3:24

a lady called Georgie. into quite an

3:27

emotional state. She text me and told

3:29

me she was crying, looking at some of

3:31

these graphs, which we'll talk about today. But

3:33

this is a subject that I know both

3:35

of you know very, very well. So I'm

3:37

keen to get into exactly why this is

3:39

happening and what we can do about it.

3:41

But to preface this discussion to understand where

3:44

you both come from and the perspective

3:46

you have, Logan, who are you? And who are you

3:48

do? I'm a behavioral scientist term dating coach.

3:50

So that means that I take all the

3:52

lessons from the field of behavioral science, how

3:54

we make decisions, and then I apply them

3:57

to the field of relationship science, which is

3:59

how love works. And so I'm really passionate

4:01

about this topic because for a long

4:03

time I've found that wherever I go

4:05

people say. Oh, I know all these

4:07

great single women. Do you know any

4:09

great single guys? And I just thought,

4:12

oh, okay, maybe that's always been happening.

4:14

But when I actually dug into the

4:16

data, I saw that we are truly

4:18

in a dating crisis right now, and

4:20

there is a huge mating gap between

4:22

the type of men that women are

4:24

looking for and the type of men

4:26

that are available. This is a critical

4:28

conversation around truly the future of humanity,

4:31

because marriage rates are down, that

4:33

means birth rates are down, and

4:35

so this conversation is extremely important.

4:38

And what sort of reference points do

4:40

you draw upon? Because you've got

4:42

some sort of unique access to data,

4:44

right? Right, so I work at Hinge

4:46

for the last five years, and so

4:49

I have access to tons of data

4:51

there around how data are dating now,

4:53

how data are dating differently, what sets

4:55

successful data apart. And then I also

4:58

have conducted my own research for this

5:00

conversation, so I sent out a survey

5:02

to thousands of my newsletter subscribers, and

5:04

people were very excited to talk about

5:07

this topic. So I make my living looking

5:09

at data and trying to come up

5:11

with insights. I spend most of my

5:13

career looking at data to try and

5:15

add shareholder value and then I have

5:17

the luxury now focusing on things I'm

5:19

really interested in. And I just started

5:21

stumbled upon data about the reflects

5:23

that the cohort that is ascended

5:25

fastest globally as women. And this

5:27

is a wonderful thing and a

5:30

huge collective victory. And the group

5:32

that has fallen furthest fastest is

5:34

men in Western markets. and the

5:36

data was just so overwhelming.

5:38

And also, I was close to being

5:40

one of these men. I didn't

5:43

have a lot of economic or

5:45

romantic prospects when I was a young man,

5:48

but there were programs in

5:50

an environment where I could

5:52

be successful. And I worry that

5:54

some of the temptations, the

5:56

technology, the economic trends, had

5:59

they been... where they are now

6:01

then, I could have very easily ended up

6:03

a statistic. So I just sort of relate

6:05

to these problems. I'm keen to

6:08

understand from your perspectives, what you think

6:10

like the first domino that falls in

6:12

a young man's life or a young

6:14

boy's life that causes the outcomes we're

6:16

talking about today? Like what is, where is

6:19

the first place to start? So the

6:21

research I've looked at and Richard

6:23

Reeves from your American History Boys

6:25

and Medicine, good research here, the

6:27

point of failure. If you reverse

6:29

engineered issues too, is when a boy loses

6:31

a male role model. And that is, in the

6:33

US, we have the second most single

6:36

family parent homes behind Sweden.

6:38

And what's interesting is that in

6:40

single parent homes, girls actually have

6:42

similar outcomes, similar rates of high

6:44

school attendance, income, rates of self-harm,

6:47

boys, once they lose a male role model,

6:49

become much more likely to be incarcerated,

6:51

engage in criminal activity, harm

6:53

themselves. It ends up that

6:55

while being physically stronger. Boys are

6:58

emotionally and mentally much

7:00

weaker. So the loss of a male role

7:02

model is, I would argue, kind of

7:04

the first point of failure that

7:06

predicts that a kid, a boy

7:08

is going to struggle. And that

7:11

has impacts on family

7:13

court, economic policy, and

7:15

just general and our society, where

7:17

men need to step up. If

7:19

we want better men, we need to

7:21

be better men. We need to step

7:23

into that void. Another one that Richard

7:25

Reeves talks about is that there's not enough

7:27

men in the education system So I believe

7:30

when Tim Waltz was a teacher one out

7:32

of three teachers in his school was a

7:34

man But now it's like 24% Yeah, and

7:36

so where do kids spend most of their

7:38

time in school and Who's teaching them mostly

7:40

not men? and it's and you think well

7:42

women can be fantastic teachers and it's true,

7:44

but after school programs not as many coaches

7:46

the tip typically are male male Not as

7:49

much compensation so they don't get rewarded for

7:51

being coaches for being coaches And if you

7:53

just think about it logically, who does a

7:55

teacher champion? A teacher champion is someone that

7:58

reminds them of themselves when they were a kid. So,

8:00

and also just look at the, there's

8:02

incredible bias, I would argue, against

8:04

males in school. A boy is twice

8:06

as likely to be suspended on a

8:08

behavior-adjusted basis. Twice as likely to be

8:11

suspended for the exact same infraction is

8:13

a girl. Five times is likely if

8:15

it's a black boy. And so, and

8:17

once you're suspended twice, it probably

8:19

means you're not going to college.

8:21

In addition, look at the behaviors

8:23

we promote in school. Sit still.

8:25

Be a pleaser. Be organized. Raise your

8:28

hand. You basically just described a girl. And

8:30

so, and also, quite frankly, a lot of

8:32

the jobs that require tertiary education attainment,

8:34

there's more women now in law school and

8:36

medical school, and quite frankly, good for

8:39

them. They're just better at that. They're

8:41

better students. They deserve to make more

8:43

money. They deserve it. But the reality

8:45

is, it has huge ramifications when we no

8:47

longer have wood, auto or metal shop. They've

8:49

gone away. Right. So those used to be

8:51

a pass to do some middle class jobs.

8:53

They've been replaced by computer science. So what are

8:56

the paths for the two-thirds of males

8:58

that aren't going to end up with

9:00

a traditional liberal arts college degree? Right,

9:02

and just to add a few more

9:04

stats to that, so we know that

9:06

70% of valetourines in the US are

9:09

female, and women are much more likely

9:11

to be in the top 10% of

9:13

their class, but then on the SAT,

9:15

men and women earn the same scores.

9:17

So there's definitely something happening in schools

9:19

that is prioritizing the female experience,

9:21

or that women are better at that. We

9:23

definitely want to celebrate the success of women.

9:25

I think the changes that have happened over

9:28

the last 50 years are incredible, and I

9:30

feel like I'm a beneficiary of that, and

9:32

so is my daughter. If you look at

9:34

all of the books that my daughter was

9:37

given when she was born, they're about great

9:39

women in history. You can be anything. Dream

9:41

big little one. And so I feel like

9:43

we have given women so many tools to

9:46

achieve, and in many ways those have been

9:48

manifested, but now boys are being left behind.

9:50

And so this isn't a zero-sum game. coming

9:53

on here because I thought people would say

9:55

she's a male apologist. She doesn't see how

9:57

much women are still struggling. I think everyone...

10:00

struggling. I think life is hard. But

10:02

what's happening right now is we need

10:04

to have empathy for young men and

10:06

we need to bring them up because

10:08

this isn't just a problem about young

10:10

men and patriarchy doesn't just hurt. women.

10:12

A lot of people think about the

10:15

patriarchy as something that prizes men and

10:17

hurts women, but when there's a very

10:19

narrow definition of men, everyone is hurt

10:21

by that. And that's all the research

10:23

that I've done is over and overseeing

10:25

women feel like they are not enough

10:27

good men to date, and men feel

10:30

like they're being held to a

10:32

ridiculous standard of holding both sides

10:34

of the coin, being feminine and

10:37

masculine. It turns out as you were

10:39

speaking, I was looking at the stats

10:41

around fatherless homes and it turns out

10:43

that there has been a significant increase

10:46

in the amount of young boys being

10:48

raised without a father present. About 25%

10:50

live without a biological... step or a

10:52

adoptive father, according to the National Fathhood

10:55

Initiative, in the US has the world's

10:57

highest rate of children living in a

10:59

single parent household and 92% of the

11:02

time that's with the mother alone. And

11:04

in 1968 only 11% of children lived

11:06

without, lived with only their mother compared

11:08

to 21% in 2020. So that's doubled

11:11

in the last 50 odd years, which

11:13

is pretty staggering. And then obviously

11:15

the consequence of that as

11:18

Scott described is that individuals

11:20

from father absent homes were

11:22

300% more likely to carry

11:25

drugs, to carry guns, to

11:27

deal drugs, and all of,

11:29

and there's this huge plethora

11:32

of mental health consequences if

11:34

you don't have a father

11:37

in the home. I mean, what do we

11:39

do about that? And like, where

11:41

are the fathers? Where are the

11:43

wrong? Where are they going? Where

11:45

are they going? the courts in

11:47

the financial you know our economy

11:49

make it difficult for a man

11:51

to stay involved in the kids lives

11:54

and also you know family courts

11:56

getting better at saying all right

11:58

the kids I mean just a personal

12:00

anecdote. I have a friend who recently

12:02

has gone through divorce, two daughters, very

12:05

much wants to be involved in their

12:07

lives. They're 13 and 15 year old

12:09

girls and quite frankly dad's there on

12:11

the weekends and they got their own

12:13

thing going on and they don't necessarily

12:15

make dad a priority. And dad's not

12:17

around for what I call the garbage time and

12:20

that is what I found with my boys is

12:22

the moments of serendipity and

12:24

connection happened randomly when you're

12:26

taking them to school. When you're out

12:28

in the back, you know, jumping around or

12:31

playing whatever it is, these garbage

12:33

moments, and when you're not in

12:35

the household, for whatever reason, there's

12:37

just, there isn't that much garbage

12:39

time, and I think slowly but

12:41

surely they lose sometimes connection

12:44

with their kid. There's also, there's

12:46

something weird going on, I'm curious,

12:48

slogan, if you've got date on this,

12:50

but you have a one-year-old daughter,

12:53

right? You're gonna be amazed when

12:55

my unfortunate boy had a Halloween

12:57

party. And the boys are like...

12:59

They're dopes, they're boys. There's some

13:01

14-year-old girls who look like they

13:04

could be the junior senator from

13:06

Pennsylvania. They're 5-foot-10, they're articulate, hello

13:08

Mr. Galloway, how are you at

13:10

a lovely home? The boys are like,

13:12

I don't know. And biologically, girls mature

13:14

faster. Their prefrontal cortex is 18

13:16

months ahead of a boy. An

13:18

18-year-old girl or woman is competing against

13:21

a 16 and a half-year-old when

13:23

she's competing against an 18-year-old. And

13:25

they're even finding. That it's getting

13:28

worse that women or girls

13:30

are starting to menstruate earlier

13:32

and boys testicles are descending

13:35

later So the gap in

13:37

maturity biological gap they think

13:39

might even be growing. They don't

13:41

know if it's pesticides But

13:44

when I meet my eighth graders colleagues,

13:46

there's a huge difference between between

13:48

the boys and the girls. Yeah

13:50

And Richards, one of Richard's suggestions

13:53

is that we red-shirt boys, that

13:55

we hold them a year back.

13:57

The boys start kindergarten at 6,

13:59

whereas... girls start at five? So the

14:02

research in the UK shows that 70%

14:04

of girls are ready to start school

14:06

at age five but many fewer boys

14:08

are capable of starting at that age

14:11

in terms of readiness and so if

14:13

you were to hold boys back then

14:15

they might be on more equal playing

14:18

field for those critical moments of four

14:20

to five of 13 to 13 where

14:22

the brains really develop at a different

14:24

stage. I want to talk about that

14:27

sort of early... education experience and how

14:29

it can be adapted, but also just

14:31

like if the environment of the classroom

14:34

is right for boys. As we're talking

14:36

about the point about father's listeners as

14:38

well, I found this graph, which is

14:41

also pretty shocking. And it goes into

14:43

what something you said has got. It

14:45

basically shows that the absence of a

14:47

father on a young girl doesn't cause

14:50

the same depressive symptoms, which means that

14:52

the absence of a father for a

14:54

boy... drastically increases their chance of being

14:57

depressed, whereas if for a girl it

14:59

doesn't. There's a lot of other graphs

15:01

that look like that in terms of

15:03

women and young girls are just actually

15:06

a lot more resilient in childhood. So

15:08

if you are in foster care as

15:10

a young woman, you have less negative

15:13

outcomes than young men. And so there's

15:15

this theory and parenting of is of

15:17

is your child an orchid or a

15:20

dandelion. And so the orchid really needs

15:22

very particular situations to grow. They need

15:24

a certain amount of light. They need

15:26

to be watered in a particular way.

15:29

in many situations. And so women, young

15:31

girls tend to be more dandelions in

15:33

childhood. And so that's why when you

15:36

have a boy and a girl both

15:38

in negative situations, the boy is more

15:40

negatively impacted. Boys are just weaker. There's

15:42

a crazy stat. I read that two

15:45

15-year-olds, a boy and a girl, both

15:47

sexually molested. And to be clear, they're

15:49

equally heinous crimes. But the boy who's

15:52

sexually molested is six to 10 times

15:54

more likely to kill himself later in

15:56

life. It ends up that boys are

15:59

just less resilient. Do

16:01

you think there's somehow more of a

16:04

stigma there? Like I wonder why that's

16:06

so dramatic. They can't talk about it.

16:08

Yeah, uncomfortable. Feel there's in LA, there's

16:11

a lack. I mean, I think just

16:13

until a few years ago, the social

16:15

incentives were to never speak about it.

16:17

I was on Lewis House podcast, and

16:20

he just openly said, I was sexually

16:22

abused as a child, and it was

16:24

so shocking for me to hear this

16:27

big handsome guy. Yeah. I don't think

16:29

you would have said a 10 or

16:31

20 years ago. It was his fault,

16:33

it made him less of a man.

16:36

So I think a lot of that

16:38

has hopefully gotten better, but we just

16:40

have to acknowledge boys mentally and emotionally

16:42

are weaker than girls. Lewis House didn't

16:45

admit that until a couple of years

16:47

ago. Is that right? So he's lived

16:49

with that his whole life and it

16:52

wasn't until he was, I think, having

16:54

dysfunctional relationships and a few other things

16:56

that happened that he decided he wanted

16:58

to say it publicly for the first

17:01

time, which again... feeds into your point.

17:03

We actually have asked some of our

17:05

audience to write in and one of

17:07

the people that wrote in was a

17:10

teacher in a primary slash preschool and

17:12

she said to me she was an

17:14

anonymous teacher in Germany and she says

17:17

every year it seems like more and

17:19

more children always have this new energy

17:21

to destroy the classroom dynamics. These boys

17:23

almost always have two things in common,

17:26

a lack of boundaries at home. and

17:28

unsupervised unlimited access to all kinds of

17:30

content on the internet, e.g. porn. Their

17:33

perception of what is okay and what

17:35

is right becomes completely distorted. I have

17:37

tried so many things and every Europe's

17:39

becoming an even bigger challenge. Young boys

17:42

in school. So one proposal is to

17:44

delay education for boys, put them in

17:46

education later. Is the classroom itself a

17:48

problem? Like the sitting in school listening

17:51

to someone speak at you? Someone proposed

17:53

to me on this podcast before that

17:55

boys need more sort of practical play

17:58

and the classroom isn't designed for that.

18:00

I wasn't sure if that was... Well,

18:02

in single-sex boys' school, they end up

18:04

with double the amount of recess time.

18:07

And that is if they have, I

18:09

equate boys to dogs, a happy dog

18:11

is a tired dog, and if it's

18:14

not hired, if it doesn't get to

18:16

run, it's going to cause trouble. And

18:18

I feel the same way about boys.

18:20

So in these schools where they decide

18:23

what's best for the boys, there's usually

18:25

more exercise and more free play and

18:27

more rough housing, co-ed schools. And you're

18:29

also seeing I think with boys. There's

18:32

just, we'd, by even acknowledging that men

18:34

play a critical role in boys' lives

18:36

a few years ago, that was seen

18:39

as sexist. What, you mean? What, you're

18:41

saying moms can't do this? And I

18:43

can just tell you, there are certain

18:45

moments when my partner needs me to

18:48

weigh in. I don't know if it's

18:50

the depth of my voice, my physical

18:52

size, the way they relate to me,

18:54

the fact that I'm not, you need

18:57

dad. Or that's what I found, especially

18:59

with boys. They need almost like that,

19:01

that, not physical intimidation, but it's almost

19:04

like they begin tuning out their mom

19:06

over time. I mean, they're incredibly close

19:08

to the mother, they look to her

19:10

for nurturing when they really have a

19:13

problem, I find to go to mom,

19:15

but they will constantly test the boundaries

19:17

constantly. And I think a lot of,

19:20

a lot of single mothers, quite frankly,

19:22

with boys, just can't keep a lid

19:24

on that kid. They can't control the

19:26

kid. So, and I think you're finding

19:29

it schools when there's no male kind

19:31

of, I don't know, involvement or that,

19:33

I don't know, what I'll call physical

19:35

presence, and then you add on this

19:38

dopa machine that they get used to

19:40

squeezing a dopa bag a hundred times

19:42

a day as they need it, and

19:45

then you take the dopa bag away.

19:47

They're just more prone to emotional outbursts.

19:49

I'm curious if you've done any research

19:51

around why that... Is that emotional outburst

19:54

more common among boys than girls? I

19:56

haven't done that research, but I... I

19:58

am imagining that there's moms out there

20:00

that are raising boys on their own,

20:03

and they might be like, yes, it

20:05

is hard, but what do I do?

20:07

Right. And so for that boy, who

20:10

isn't taught by a lot of guys

20:12

in school and isn't in the Boy

20:14

Scouts, which doesn't exist anymore, or it

20:16

doesn't have big brothers, big sisters, like,

20:19

what does that mom do? So with

20:21

that, you talked about a Boy Scouts.

20:23

In America, there's scouts for America. Right.

20:26

So the question is, are I, you

20:28

know, what do you do? And I

20:30

think that we need a societal zeitgeist

20:32

that says immediately if there's no longer

20:35

a male involved, we have to get

20:37

other men involved and acknowledge that that's

20:39

not being sexist, that that's important, that

20:41

that's important, that you get men involved.

20:44

And I think, so I came from

20:46

a single parent household raised by a

20:48

single immigrant mother who lived and died

20:51

a secretary, lied of my life, as

20:53

soon as my dad's gone. And I

20:55

had wonderful men involved in my life.

20:57

I had a stockbroer, neighbor down the

21:00

hall came with his girlfriend and said,

21:02

you want to go horseback riding? You

21:04

just take me horseback riding. I don't

21:07

know if men would be comfortable doing

21:09

that in today's age. So getting men

21:11

involved in their lives after school programs,

21:13

Boy Scouts. I had a lot of

21:16

wonderful men. I used to go camping,

21:18

you know, and there were men everywhere

21:20

involved in my life. And I worried

21:22

that a lot of those institutions. and

21:25

also there's a reticence and a hesitant

21:27

for men to get involved in a

21:29

boy's life that isn't theirs for fear

21:32

they're going to be perceived as something's

21:34

wrong with them. I was thinking that,

21:36

so if we have less men in

21:38

the home raising the children and then

21:41

we go to school and the stat

21:43

says that 72% of teachers in middle

21:45

school are women as well, there's no

21:47

men at school either. It's no wonder

21:50

that boys are struggling so severely at

21:52

such a young early age for so

21:54

many reasons because... one would assume that

21:57

they're being socialised in the same way

21:59

as girls. I'm seeing

22:01

a mother at home, don't have a

22:03

father, I've got women at school, don't

22:05

have male teachers. I mean, that's a

22:08

controversial thing to say, I'm sure it

22:10

used to be, but I think people

22:12

are waking up a little bit now.

22:14

We need more male teachers, there's more

22:16

female fighter pilots per capita than male

22:18

kindergarten teachers. There's just, there's an absence,

22:21

there are some boys, not some, there

22:23

are millions of boys in America whose

22:25

first male role model is a prison

22:27

guard. And there just no men in

22:29

their lives in their lives. After school

22:32

programs being canceled, no women, very, very

22:34

few men, K-12, dad's not around. There

22:36

are, there are commune, there are literally

22:38

communities. You read articles about it. Where

22:40

it's like, where are the men? Yeah,

22:42

so I'm trying to figure out where

22:45

are they? Online. Doesn't look like they're

22:47

in work. They're not in college. The

22:49

reality is, there just aren't for a

22:51

lot of reasons, a host of reasons.

22:53

male, a lack of male involvement in

22:55

kids' lives is a big, big factor,

22:58

leaniness. There are other factors, there's socioeconomic

23:00

factors, there's a lack of vocational training,

23:02

there's outsourcing of many of the jobs

23:04

that made a man's path to male

23:06

class viable. You want to talk about

23:09

the UK, a big problem is a

23:11

lack of growth. There's just not a

23:13

lot of income opportunities for a young

23:15

man who's not exceptional. And what we've

23:17

seen in the US is essentially if

23:19

you look at our economic policies and

23:22

college, it's never been better to be

23:24

remarkable. Like if you're in the top

23:26

10% of your high school class, you're

23:28

going to make more money than the

23:30

top 10% did, 20, 30. If you're

23:32

going to make a kid at Google

23:35

who's amazing, computer science theory, it can

23:37

make millions of dollars by the time

23:39

of the 30. But I can prove

23:41

to every one of us, mathematically, the

23:43

99% of our children are not in

23:46

the top 1. And our economic policies

23:48

have basically said that school and college

23:50

is meant to identify a super class

23:52

of... percenters that we're going to try

23:54

and turn into billionaires instead of figuring

23:56

out the infrastructure in the programs to

23:59

ensure the bottom 90 have a shot

24:01

of being at the top 10. And

24:03

one of the stats is just around

24:05

college acceptance. When I applied to UCLA,

24:07

the acceptance rate was 76 percent, now

24:10

it's 9 percent. I was unremarkable for

24:12

whatever reason, prefrontal cortex, single mother, whatever

24:14

you want to call it. But back

24:16

then they had the mission and the

24:18

charge to let in unremarkable kids. And

24:20

that's no longer the case because because

24:23

because America's because America's Superpowers are optimism

24:25

and we all believe our kids in

24:27

that top 1% and the reality is

24:29

they're not. Or people think, I like

24:31

an economy where you can make a

24:33

billion dollars because that's going to be

24:36

me one day. So they have ignored

24:38

the fact that we are crowding more

24:40

and more prosperity and opportunity into the

24:42

remarkable. And for me it comes down

24:44

to what is, what do we want

24:47

in American UK? Do we want a

24:49

super class of billionaires or do we

24:51

want a society in an operating system?

24:53

that gives unremarkable people a shot of

24:55

being in the top 10%. It's become

24:57

winner-take-all. And we have purposely created a

25:00

set of economic and educational policies that

25:02

crowd a massive amount of prosperity into

25:04

the top 1%. And we have opted

25:06

for it, because we believe we have

25:08

a shot at being in that top

25:10

1%. I love that because I think

25:13

that the winner takes all applies to

25:15

a lot of different things. So I

25:17

bet the top 10% of Americans now

25:19

are healthier than they've ever been. All

25:21

the rest of the country has never

25:24

been healthy. Best health care in the

25:26

world if you're in the top 10%?

25:28

Yeah. Or in marriages, the top marriages

25:30

today are the best marriages of all

25:32

time, yet we have declining marriage rates.

25:34

So we're nearing the lowest rate of

25:37

marriage that we've ever had in American

25:39

history. So most people. or fewer people

25:41

are getting married, but if you're, you

25:43

know, two college graduates who get married

25:45

in your 30s, you might have an

25:47

even stronger bond than people in the

25:50

past. But that is a small group

25:52

at the top. Marriage has become a

25:54

luxury item. If you're in the top

25:56

quintal of income-earning households... you're 75% get

25:58

married. If you're in the bottom quintile,

26:01

only 25. If you're in the lower

26:03

quintile of income earning men, only one

26:05

in four chance of getting married. And

26:07

this has huge impact on our society

26:09

because we know that married people are

26:11

healthier, they're wealthier, they live longer, when

26:14

couples are married, they actually have lower

26:16

rates of child poverty. And so this

26:18

has huge implications for our society if

26:20

we're having fewer marriages. I want to

26:22

get into dating and marriage and love

26:24

and all those things. One of the

26:27

things that really shocked me as I

26:29

was preparing for this conversation was this

26:31

graph. Because this isn't the narrative that

26:33

we hear. Can you both see this

26:35

one? This is the reverse gender gap.

26:38

Gender gap. Gender pay gap graph. And

26:40

it shows that young women are now

26:42

earning young men. That's not what I

26:44

heard in terms of like if I

26:46

log on social media, we've been trying

26:48

to fight the gender pay gap. But

26:51

to see that young men are now

26:53

falling behind both in education, both in

26:55

education, unemployment young men face higher unemployment

26:57

nearly twice the rate of women. Looking

26:59

at the early developmental stats, this graph

27:01

was horrifying. I actually couldn't believe that

27:04

was true. That young boys are struggling

27:06

so much in education, but then to

27:08

see also that it's reflected in... So

27:10

that graph shows that... boys age 16

27:12

to 24 are making 10% less in

27:15

full-time employment than women. And so it

27:17

is true that we're seeing a reverse

27:19

income graph. But what we do need

27:21

to talk about is even when women

27:23

make more in their 20s, that changes

27:25

around age 30. When they have kids,

27:28

right? It's like this meteorite hits and

27:30

there's this huge burden placed on women.

27:32

And I think that's a big part

27:34

of the conversation that we'll talk about

27:36

when we talk about dating is women

27:38

still feel like they have to have

27:41

to have... you know, do all the

27:43

household chores and raise the kids, but

27:45

suddenly they have to earn a full-time

27:47

income too. And so so many of

27:49

the gender roles are changing. And so,

27:52

yes, that graph is true. We have

27:54

seen since 2020 that there's a shift,

27:56

but I don't want to just say,

27:58

oh, women are making more and per-

28:00

because as soon as there's kids involved

28:02

they pay the price. Do you know

28:05

you said that women feel the need

28:07

to then also earn a career and

28:09

all those things? Where did that come

28:11

from? Well, there's this idea of hypergamy.

28:13

So traditionally, women seek partners who have

28:16

more economic or social status than they

28:18

do. And for most of human history,

28:20

this worked because men had the resources.

28:22

And so there was sort of this

28:24

arrangement where women could often marry someone

28:26

who was more educated or earned more.

28:29

But over the last 50 years, that's

28:31

really changed. And so what I'm seeing

28:33

in my work working one-on-one with women

28:35

is that when they say that there

28:37

aren't enough good guys to go around,

28:39

that's actually true. So we now have

28:42

this huge mating gap where we have

28:44

these high performing, high earning women that

28:46

have done the work and gone to

28:48

therapy and work out and they're ready

28:50

for their great partner, but they're not

28:53

able to find enough guys who are

28:55

available. And if this is a problem

28:57

now with the women I work within

28:59

their 30s, we are going to be

29:01

facing a much more severe crisis. 10,

29:03

15 years from now. So currently 60%

29:06

of college enrollment is women, but soon

29:08

it's going to be for every two

29:10

women that graduate, it'll be one man.

29:12

So that means half of those women

29:14

will not have a guy who graduated

29:16

from college. And so this is a

29:19

crisis because these women are saying, okay,

29:21

if you cannot be the provider, then

29:23

you need to be offering more. Emotional

29:25

intelligence is the new currency in dating.

29:27

But these guys were raised not to

29:30

be emotionally intelligent, not to give emotional

29:32

support, but to be a provider. And

29:34

so they've been chasing this lion. I'm

29:36

going to hunt for this lion of

29:38

being a provider. But suddenly they're told,

29:40

you need to hunt for a tiger,

29:43

which is emotional intelligence. They don't have

29:45

the skills to do that. And so

29:47

women have raised the bar in terms

29:49

of what they need from men, while

29:51

men are continuously falling behind. Yeah, there's

29:53

a lot there. There's some new ones

29:56

around the pay thing. So the data

29:58

I've seen is that. Women under the

30:00

age of 30 in urban areas are

30:02

now making more money. But to your

30:04

point, the moment they have kids, where

30:07

corporate America has really failed, is it

30:09

hasn't figured out a way to maintain

30:11

a woman's professional trajectory once she decides

30:13

to deploy her over his napkits. And

30:15

there's some data saying, okay, two-thirds of

30:17

divorce can be reverse engineered to the man

30:20

starting to make less money. in the relationship

30:22

starts making more money, they become twice

30:24

as likely to get divorced, three times

30:26

as likely to use ED drugs because

30:28

the guy loses a sense of purpose

30:30

and self-esteem. What gets lost in that

30:32

data is the reality is if

30:35

a woman is stepping up and stepping

30:37

into the economic void and being more

30:39

economically, being a greater economic

30:41

contributor, then logically it would make sense

30:43

that men need to step up logistically.

30:46

And I think what a lot of women are

30:48

saying is like, okay. I'm not getting anything. You're

30:50

no longer a provider. And by the

30:52

way, you haven't filled that void. You

30:54

haven't made up the delta. So there's

30:57

some nuance around it. What also I

30:59

think is important to say is that

31:01

if women are better students and showing

31:03

the discipline and the skills to

31:05

go to college and an information

31:08

economy and making more money, then okay,

31:10

good on them. Just as for whatever reason,

31:12

men made more money. Maybe it

31:14

wasn't fair. It's not a crime against humanity

31:16

if women have the skills to make

31:18

more money. What happens, though, is the

31:20

second-order effects that you're talking about, and

31:22

that is, and we don't like to

31:24

talk about this, 75% of women say that

31:26

economic viability is hugely important in a

31:29

mate. Only 25% of men. For men

31:31

it's not a criteria. For women it

31:33

is. And Chris Williamson of the modern

31:35

wisdom podcast, he has his great stat, or

31:37

he calls out the high-heels effect. And that

31:39

is 50% of women say they won't date a

31:41

man shorter than shorter than them, a man shorter

31:44

than them. I'm curious what you think, but

31:46

I think it's more like 80%. I think it's

31:48

an embarrassing thing to say because just instinctively, women

31:50

feel like they'll be vulnerable during gestation

31:52

and they want someone they think physically

31:54

could protect them. I just think it's

31:56

hardwired into a meme if they don't know it. Women metaphorically

31:59

are getting... taller every year and

32:01

women made horizontally enough and men

32:03

horizontally and down right and when

32:06

the pool of horizontal and up

32:08

keep shrinking they just have so

32:10

this notion a ton of great women

32:12

where are the men or there's no men

32:15

there's a lot of men just not

32:17

men they'd want to date right and

32:19

men you speed ball it with the

32:21

guys who are in the top 10%

32:23

can engage in Porsche polygamy. They can get

32:25

a date every god damn night, which

32:27

does not encourage long-term or very good

32:29

behavior So the guys they all want

32:32

are not incented to enter into long-term

32:34

relationships and the bottom half of

32:36

men are literally Shut out of

32:38

the mating market and we always

32:40

kind of we always kind of in

32:42

this goes to your Ballywick kind

32:44

of portraying men as the predators and

32:46

the idiots and they just got

32:49

their act together There's something

32:51

strange going on in that is online

32:53

dating When a woman, a woman can

32:55

go out with a guy, a high-status

32:57

male, and I'll put for this thesis,

33:00

and I want you to respond to

33:02

it, she can have sex with him,

33:04

which gives her the impression

33:06

that's her weight class for a

33:08

relationship, but he's not interested in

33:10

a relationship. And then she basically

33:13

decides the bottom 90 are no

33:15

longer in her weight class. And

33:17

you can't tell a woman to

33:19

lower her expectations, but the reality

33:21

is... all of the women want

33:23

the same few guys and they shut

33:26

out the rest. Yeah, okay, so there's a few

33:28

things I'll respond to there. So one,

33:30

going back to the income graph, I

33:32

want to just call out that yes,

33:34

right now in a few urban markets,

33:36

women are making more than men. So

33:38

women in DC and New York under

33:41

30 are making more than men on

33:43

average, but in most situations men are

33:45

still making more than women, but we're

33:47

talking about a projection. Going back to

33:50

the dating research. So yes, it's exactly

33:52

as you described. What we have right

33:54

now is there's fewer and fewer men

33:56

that are hypergamous mates for women. So

33:59

if there's a. much smaller pool of

34:01

guys than what you have is you

34:03

have a bunch of women competing for

34:05

the same men. And then a bunch

34:08

of guys get ignored. But what I

34:10

also see is that those top guys

34:12

are having a hard time deciding. So

34:15

I feel like in my coaching practice

34:17

as a dating coach, I'm working with

34:19

a lot of women who say, what

34:22

do I do? I've changed my profile

34:24

the way you said I should. I

34:26

took your class, but I still feel

34:29

like there's just not enough great guys.

34:31

And then I work with these CEO

34:33

men who are having such a hard

34:36

time choosing. So many women are competing

34:38

for the same men, and then a

34:40

bunch of guys are getting ignored. And

34:43

then what ends up happening is where

34:45

do those guys go? And they go

34:47

online. That's what you see. They go

34:50

to porn. They go to porn or

34:52

they go to read it. I mean,

34:54

I love read it, but they're really

34:57

going to some of these red-pilled communities.

34:59

And so what you're seeing now is

35:01

just men really opting out of society.

35:04

And as Scott says, there's nothing scarier

35:06

than a single man, a young single

35:08

man. And so we are just creating

35:11

a lot of these angry young single

35:13

men who are saying, well, this is

35:15

rigged against me. And so that's why

35:17

I am worried about the rise of

35:20

people like Andrew Tate. And if we

35:22

wonder where are the dads, where are

35:24

the men? Well, men are finding these

35:27

father figures, but they're finding them online

35:29

and they're not the father figures that

35:31

I would choose for the majority of

35:34

men. And so I'm really worried about

35:36

this because I feel like women are

35:38

saying, guys, you need to step up

35:41

because I can provide and I don't

35:43

need that from you. And guys are

35:45

not prepared to rise to the occasion.

35:48

So I would say, you know, I

35:50

work at Hinge, but I do think

35:52

that apps have perpetuated this issue around

35:55

height, because if you can set your

35:57

height filter to something, then you might

35:59

set it higher. And then it says

36:02

if you have the dating app is

36:04

a club and you're literally have... bouncers

36:06

that prevent a bunch of guys from

36:09

getting into the club. So many women

36:11

in the US set their height filters

36:13

at six feet, but only 14% of

36:16

men in the US are six feet

36:18

or taller. what happens to the other

36:20

86% of men, and women are saying,

36:23

where's my guy? It's like, well, he's

36:25

not even showing up on your app.

36:27

And so a huge thing that I

36:29

push women to do is to change

36:32

their height filters and just say, there

36:34

is nothing that proves that you're gonna

36:36

have a successful long-term relationship if the

36:39

guy is higher. I'm married to a

36:41

short king. I love it. I feel

36:43

like I really found this gem. Scott's

36:46

point as well about they will date

36:48

one of the men in the top

36:50

10% sleep with him potentially and then

36:53

that kind of adjust their standards and

36:55

they expect all other men to meet

36:57

that standard but there isn't just there

37:00

isn't enough men to meet that standard

37:02

is there? I haven't specifically heard that

37:04

I mean there is a lot of

37:07

evidence around a sort of mating that

37:09

sort of mating that people sort of

37:11

have an internal sense of how attractive

37:14

they are and that they end up

37:16

with someone similar to date horizontally and

37:18

up and mandate horizontally and down. So

37:21

if you have two-thirds of women who

37:23

are college grads and one-third of college

37:25

grads who are men and some of

37:28

them are going to date women without

37:30

college degrees, you truly do have this

37:32

dating crisis where there's just not enough

37:35

men to meet this hypergamous mating. Again,

37:37

you can't tell women to lower their

37:39

expectations, but this is the reality. When

37:42

you ask a man, if you could

37:44

have a woman who had 80% of

37:46

everything you wanted, 75% say yeah I'm

37:48

on board when you say to a

37:51

woman a man has 80% of what

37:53

you want 75% say that's that's not

37:55

enough but if you but even look

37:58

at the media right right what is

38:00

the media tell a woman to do

38:02

he's out but he didn't open your

38:05

door he's not nice to his parent

38:07

you'd walk walk right out on that

38:09

man like it's little every piece of

38:12

media is you don't need him you're

38:14

a strong independent woman pull the rip

38:16

cord you're out and it is that

38:19

the the basic kind of communication around

38:21

this is you are a strong independent

38:23

powerful woman that is wonderful and quite

38:26

frankly you don't need the imperfect man

38:28

and they're just not they're just not

38:30

connecting I read that on tender a

38:33

man of average attractiveness has to swipe

38:35

right 200 times to get one coffee,

38:37

and then four of those five coffees

38:40

will ghost him. They will decide, they

38:42

don't want to meet him, or they

38:44

won't show up. That means a guy

38:47

of average attractiveness has to swipe right

38:49

a thousand times to get one coffee.

38:51

Now what does that tell that guy?

38:54

Women don't value me. Women make me

38:56

feel rejected. And then they go online.

38:58

and they see these misogynists telling them

39:00

it's not your fault. And these men

39:03

become much more prone to misogynistic content,

39:05

much more prone to nationalistic content, blaming

39:07

other people for the lack of economic

39:10

opportunity. They start sequestering from society. I

39:12

worry that we are literally evolving a

39:14

new species of asexual, a social male.

39:17

And if a man by the age

39:19

of 30... hasn't either lived with someone

39:21

or married someone, there's a one in

39:24

three chance he's gonna have a substance

39:26

abuse problem. In addition, it goes so

39:28

much deeper than that because if they

39:31

don't develop the skills, you know, the

39:33

reason romantic comedies are two hours and

39:35

not 15 minutes is this shit is

39:38

hard. Like finding an attractive intelligent woman.

39:40

Generally speaking, 75% of people who've been

39:42

married longer than 30 years say in

39:45

the beginning, one was much more interested

39:47

than the man. Women are much chooseer.

39:49

The basis of evolution is seed trying

39:52

to get everywhere, men, and women deploying

39:54

a much finer filter to select the

39:56

strongest smartest and fastest speed. So men

39:59

need an environment. demonstrate excellence. And you

40:01

hear these women talk about it, he

40:03

was kind, he was good at work.

40:06

I like the way smell, he was

40:08

funny. Where do men demonstrate excellence when

40:10

they're not going to college? They're not

40:12

going into an office because of remote

40:15

work. Where do they have, they're not

40:17

going to church, not going to temple?

40:19

Where does a woman have the opportunity

40:22

to fall in love other than these

40:24

baseline metrics? And you were talking about.

40:27

Women say, you've seen these

40:29

stick locks, over $100,000, that's

40:31

not unreasonable, and over six

40:33

feet, that's 2.2% of the

40:35

male population. So where do

40:37

they fall in love? Where

40:39

can a man demonstrate excellence?

40:41

It used to be to

40:44

go to Temple, seven single

40:46

women, seven single men, and

40:48

they kind of cared off

40:50

and worked it out. And

40:52

online dating, similar to online

40:54

e-commerce, online rentals, it's created

40:56

a winner-take-if not all environment.

40:58

And it's basically been amazing

41:00

for attractive guys, attractive wealthy

41:02

guys, tall wealthy guys. It's

41:04

been amazing for them. For

41:06

all the other guys, it's

41:08

been a disaster, and it's

41:10

been made it mildly shittier

41:12

for every woman. The digitization

41:14

of mating, I believe, has

41:16

been a disaster. It's been

41:18

disastrous for men. I

41:20

want to talk about how the gender

41:22

seems to be separating in a lot

41:24

of important ways. We know from research

41:26

around political affiliation that women are now

41:29

on average 30% more liberal than men.

41:31

So they are definitely experiencing political polarization.

41:33

Then for the first time in history,

41:35

more men are attending church than women.

41:37

And when I started this research, I

41:39

really came at it from this point

41:41

of, is it just me or they're

41:43

not as many eligible guys? But when

41:45

I dug into this, I found that

41:47

both genders really feel misunderstood. And so

41:49

I asked men and women who has

41:51

more power in relationships. So equal amounts

41:53

men and women said, oh, we have

41:55

the same amount of power. 42% of

41:58

that. But then what was so interesting

42:00

is that 46% of men said women

42:02

have more power and 46% of women

42:04

said men have more power. So there's

42:06

this huge feeling of oh the other

42:08

gender has all of this power. And

42:10

when I spoke to people I want

42:12

to tell you about three dating paradoxes

42:14

that I saw. So the first dating

42:16

paradox for men is this idea that

42:18

now that women are providers and do

42:20

not need a man to take care

42:22

of them financially. They really want guys

42:25

to step up with emotional support. But

42:27

here's the paradox. They were not raised

42:29

and they don't know how to give

42:31

that emotional support or emotional availability. So

42:33

we know women, even if they have

42:35

the same number of friends as guys,

42:37

the women are talking to their friends

42:39

much more often. Women speak. to their

42:41

kids, even starting at a very young

42:43

age. They use more emotional language with

42:45

their daughters and their sons. So constantly

42:47

we have this feeling where we're asking

42:49

men to do something when they don't

42:52

have the skills. I was talking to

42:54

my friend David and he said, women

42:56

are in graduate school when it comes

42:58

to emotional conversations and guys are in

43:00

third grade. The other part of the

43:02

paradox is that women are asking men

43:04

to be more emotionally open, but then

43:06

they get shamed when they do that.

43:08

So we have this great quote from

43:10

Brene Brown, where she says, we beg

43:12

guys to open up, we beg them

43:14

to let us in, and then when

43:16

they do, we can't stomach it. And

43:19

I heard that over and over in

43:21

my research. There's this quote where a

43:23

guy says, a woman would rather see

43:25

me die on the white horse than

43:27

fall off of it. And so there's

43:29

this sense that I have to be

43:31

perfect. I have to be the masculine

43:33

and the feminine, but I don't have

43:35

the skills to do that. And women

43:37

say that they want these guys to

43:39

be emotional, but as soon as they

43:41

show emotionality, it can freak those women

43:43

out. So one guy that I spoke

43:45

to for this said, I went on

43:48

a few dates with this woman. At

43:50

some point I told her that my

43:52

mom had had a suicide attempt. And

43:54

the next day she texted me and

43:56

said, I'm sorry, I can't process your

43:58

emotional trauma for you. And so guys

44:00

are getting a lot of mixed messages.

44:02

We want you to be feminine. want

44:04

you to support us, but when you

44:06

do, it freaks us out and so

44:08

we don't want that. And digging into

44:10

the research and I want to look

44:12

into this more, I think it's that

44:15

a lot of women want emotional support.

44:17

They want you to support them in

44:19

their emotional journeys, but they're not as

44:21

ready to have you open up in

44:23

your emotional journey. Can I put forward

44:25

a thesis and I want you to

44:27

respond to it because I haven't done

44:29

the research? And what women say they

44:31

want is an emotionally untouched man, and

44:33

what they want is a masculine man.

44:35

And that they will articulate what they

44:37

want in a man, and includes being

44:39

more emotionally available, and then they want

44:42

to have sex with a traditional masculine

44:44

man. And what I hear from a

44:46

lot of, and this is anecdotal evidence,

44:48

and it's pulse marketing, and you tell

44:50

me what the data says, but there's

44:52

just so many single women in my

44:54

age group. And it feels like there's

44:56

literally no men in my age group.

44:58

As bad as it is for people

45:00

in their 20s and 30s, try being

45:02

a woman in your 50s trying today,

45:04

right? And they tell me the same

45:06

thing. These are liberal, progressive, educated women.

45:09

They say, boy, I like a manly

45:11

man. And they say it under their

45:13

breath. So there's what supposedly is stated

45:15

around, I need more emotional availability, someone's

45:17

touch with their feelings, but what the

45:19

research shows is they want a guy

45:21

with facial hair. who's the still women

45:23

are still very attracted to traditional masculine

45:25

attributes. Yeah, I mean, I think we're

45:27

just in such a hard moment because

45:29

you have women who are saying, I

45:31

don't want to date a guy who

45:33

earns less than me. And you might

45:36

think, okay, well, the data hasn't caught

45:38

up with the dating. If more women

45:40

are in higher education and more women

45:42

are earning more, then maybe you're going

45:44

to be. the one who earns more

45:46

in your relationship. But what they feel

45:48

like is projecting out, I'm gonna end

45:50

up doing most of the housework, most

45:52

of the child care, I might as

45:54

well get a guy that can contribute

45:56

financially. So they don't wanna change their

45:58

ex. expectations around that. And so I

46:00

think we truly are in a moment

46:02

where women are being asked to do

46:05

more masculine things and men are being

46:07

asked to do more feminine things. And

46:09

I think a lot of that is

46:11

progress, but it also seems to be

46:13

creating a lot of confusion in the

46:15

dating world. Yeah, it's sort of, I

46:17

was just thinking, I coach a lot

46:19

of young men and occasionally women asked

46:21

me for data advice and you coach,

46:23

it sounds like a lot of both.

46:25

Are you in shape? What do you

46:27

look like naked? Do you have a

46:29

plan? You don't have to be rich

46:32

now, but do you have a plan?

46:34

Have you found means of being confident?

46:36

Can you demonstrate kindness and excellence across

46:38

anything? And the only investigative women is

46:40

second coffee. And that is, maybe it

46:42

wasn't great. I mean, if you don't

46:44

like the guy and you're just like

46:46

turned off fine. But if it was

46:48

just okay... Maybe give it a second

46:50

coffee. I have a chapter in my

46:52

book called Make the Second Date, the

46:54

default. And it's really because I feel

46:56

like I won the lottery with my

46:59

husband, but he is somebody that takes

47:01

longer to open up, and he's the

47:03

slow burn. We met in college, we

47:05

met again seven years later, then we

47:07

were friends for a year, and I

47:09

feel like he's this incredible partner, husband,

47:11

father, but I don't know that if

47:13

we'd met just randomly on the first

47:15

date that I would have gone on

47:17

the second date that I would have

47:19

gone on a second date. Logan, Scott

47:21

said something there about what he thinks

47:23

women want, which is these sort of

47:26

traditional masculine features. Is this what you

47:28

see in the data? What's hard is

47:30

I think Scott's right about what people

47:32

say they want versus... So stated versus

47:34

revealed preferences. So according to the research

47:36

that I did, women are saying the

47:38

number one thing that they're looking for

47:40

is kindness and compassion. That's also what

47:42

men are saying that they're looking for.

47:44

So in many ways, this is great.

47:46

People are looking for the same things.

47:48

But I just feel like there's these

47:50

huge disconnects now where people don't feel

47:53

like they can get what they want.

47:55

Men are saying they want kindness and

47:57

compassion. That was, I made them say,

47:59

what are all... the things that you

48:01

care about and then what is the

48:03

number one thing that you care about

48:05

and kindness and compassion was

48:07

first for both of them? The

48:09

stuff I've seen or the stuff I've

48:11

read is that for women and I've

48:13

talked to men about this number one

48:16

is they have to signal resources and

48:18

we don't like to say it out

48:20

loud and by the way it doesn't

48:22

necessarily mean you have to have a

48:25

range over and a panel right now

48:27

but you have to be up for work.

48:29

You work out, which shows a level of

48:31

discipline and that you can commit to

48:33

something. You're in school. You've got a good

48:35

job. This person is going to have resources.

48:38

And I don't think that's changed a

48:40

whole lot. I think a man's ability

48:42

to signal future resources has gone down.

48:44

I'm not sure it's become any less

48:47

of a criteria. Number two is intellect.

48:49

And it's very instinctual, because if you

48:51

make good decisions for the tribe, your

48:53

kids are more likely to survive.

48:56

Someone. is more likely to take

48:58

care of your offspring than someone

49:00

is stupid. What's interesting, and I

49:02

love this, is the fastest way

49:04

to communicate intellect is humor.

49:06

And I joke, and this is bad, but

49:08

I say this is my impression of a

49:11

woman. I'm laughing, I'm laughing, I'm naked. And

49:13

that is, I both thought, if a guy

49:15

can make a woman laugh, she will date

49:17

him. And then the third thing, and

49:19

this is where guys screw up. This

49:21

is what I tell a guy's secret

49:23

weapon is. It's kindness. Women want to

49:25

see that you are a good person. You treat

49:28

service staff well. You're good to

49:30

your parents. You have manners. You

49:32

treat people well even with no

49:34

reciprocal expectation. Because they know that

49:37

a kind person, if and when

49:39

she's vulnerable, and needs help,

49:41

and maybe isn't bringing in as

49:43

much to the table for certain

49:45

periods of time, that this is a kind

49:47

man. And, you know, sure, you want to

49:49

do your best to signal resources

49:51

and have a plan, sure. Maybe you're

49:54

smart, maybe you aren't, there's not a lot

49:56

you can do there. But the secret weapon I think

49:58

for men that they don't leverage... And I

50:00

do think it's a practice is to

50:02

demonstrate kindness. And we don't talk about

50:04

that enough as men. It's like, well,

50:06

okay, in its little things, have good

50:08

manners, be thoughtful, follow up with people.

50:10

And I think that, anyways, those are

50:13

the three things that I have read,

50:15

women want in men. Okay, there's so

50:17

much there. So one is I do

50:19

think we need a new definition for

50:21

modern masculinity or mature masculinity or evolved

50:23

masculinity, and I think that that's why

50:25

this moment feels so painful is that

50:27

we don't have it. Because I agree

50:29

with you, I don't think women are

50:31

saying I want a feminine man. I

50:33

think they want a modern masculine man.

50:35

And so that means somebody who is

50:38

decisive and can provide, but also somebody

50:40

who's able to communicate with them emotionally.

50:42

And so one of the suggestions that

50:44

I came here today to talk about

50:46

is this idea of men's groups. So

50:48

about a year ago, my friend David

50:50

Clavins, who happens to be a world-class

50:52

magician, came to my husband and said,

50:54

I'm going to form this men's group.

50:56

And so it's about six or seven

50:58

men, and they meet together monthly, and

51:00

they have served They have formed this

51:02

council of peers. So every month that

51:05

they get together, every guy sits down

51:07

with Post-it notes and says the two

51:09

issues that are most pressing for him.

51:11

So first of all, I think that

51:13

that's a great way of doing it

51:15

because it's actually that time to say,

51:17

what am I struggling with? I think

51:19

many people in their lives, maybe especially

51:21

men, don't sit there and say, what's

51:23

top of mind for me? So guys

51:25

get the quiet time to do that.

51:27

Then they go around in a circle

51:29

and whoever has the most pressing issue,

51:32

they get to take their time. And

51:34

some men might say, you know, these

51:36

are top of mind for me, but

51:38

it's not a priority. I'll give the

51:40

time to someone else. And each month,

51:42

they talk about what's going on for

51:44

them. They hold each other accountable, they

51:46

hold each other accountable accountable. And I

51:48

love that these men have a masculine

51:50

space to actually go through what's going

51:52

on for them, because maybe they have

51:54

wives and girlfriends. can go to. Maybe

51:56

they don't, but I think it's a

51:59

different type of advice that you get

52:01

from a council of trusted peers. And

52:03

I really do think that men's groups

52:05

could change a lot of these issues

52:07

because I can sit here and say

52:09

everybody should be in therapy. Guess what?

52:11

Therapy's really expensive and many insurance companies

52:13

will not provide it or there's a

52:15

huge waiting list. And so if we

52:17

just sit around for all these guys

52:19

to go to therapy, that's not going

52:21

to tribe of peers and I have

52:23

just seen so many changes in this

52:26

group. So David told me his story

52:28

where he had a lot of anger

52:30

about his mom's debilitating illness and he

52:32

wasn't really experiencing it and it was

52:34

coming out as anger at his mom,

52:36

but he wasn't conscious of that. But

52:38

by getting the anger out in a

52:40

safe place with men, the only place

52:42

where he felt like he could truly

52:44

be angry, he was able to get

52:46

over it and to actually treat his

52:48

mom with a lot more empathy. Or

52:51

my husband has gone to the group

52:53

and talked about ego stuff at work

52:55

or how hard the transition to becoming

52:57

a parent has been. And I feel

52:59

like the men in this group have

53:01

grown so much over the 12 months

53:03

that it's been happening that I just

53:05

paid for my brother-in-law to be at

53:07

a men's group. And I want there

53:09

to be tons of men's groups because

53:11

I really feel like this isn't an

53:13

issue that a therapist or a mom

53:15

or I can really solve. I think

53:18

men need to be solving this problem

53:20

within themselves. What you said is really

53:22

powerful because if you walk down the

53:24

hallway at Stern, there's golden seeds, venture

53:26

cap, women in venture capital, black women's

53:28

consulting club, there are women's support. There's

53:30

nothing for men. And these groups are

53:32

really wonderful. Man talks is one that

53:34

I've been looking at where they've said,

53:36

let's get together and just be supportive

53:38

of each other. And it's a fairly...

53:40

new phenomena. I think people are afraid

53:42

of men gathering because traditionally bad things

53:45

have happened in that. I mean gangs,

53:47

I'm just thinking of like many situations

53:49

in which like if once there's a...

53:51

torch I want there to be some

53:53

women there right like so there's a

53:55

reason why people have been fearful of

53:57

this or it's like when the whole

53:59

world was a men's group the men's

54:01

club you didn't need to have men's

54:03

clubs but I think in this moment

54:05

this is a really powerful organic grassroots

54:07

way for men to change so I

54:09

imagine that you have group chats with

54:12

men that are your peers that you

54:14

go to for advice and I feel

54:16

like there's men out there that don't

54:18

have that and we are meant to

54:20

make decisions by getting advice from other

54:22

people. I personally have a board of

54:24

directors that in my life when I'm

54:26

going to make a big decision, I

54:28

meet with them. So when I took

54:30

my last job, when I decided to

54:32

move, all these different things, I meet

54:34

with my board of directors and I

54:36

say, what am I not seeing? What

54:39

are my blind spots? And they've given

54:41

me a lot of good and hard

54:43

advice. And I think we all need

54:45

to be building our own board of

54:47

directors and for men that might be

54:49

this men's group. Do you mind if

54:51

I pause this conversation for a moment?

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period. That shopify.com/Bartlett. It is hard is

55:43

it. as a young man to share

55:45

how you feel with other young men,

55:47

even if they're like your best friends,

55:49

it's so much easier to roast each

55:51

other. Yeah. Like my group chat with

55:53

my... is probably a little bit more

55:55

advanced in it in terms of emotional

55:58

openness, but most of it is just

56:00

like a war zone. We're like criticizing

56:02

each other, attacking each other, but that's

56:04

kind of our way of showing love.

56:06

And then you'll have, once every two

56:08

weeks, someone will be going through something.

56:10

So like one of my friends now,

56:12

they've just found out that there's a

56:14

complication with the pregnancy and the tone

56:16

shifts, and we'll become supportive. switch from

56:18

like trying to kill each other in

56:20

the most like funny way to being

56:22

really really emotionally supportive a lot of

56:25

men don't have that. Well so funny

56:27

that you said that because my husband's

56:29

really funny and so are some of

56:31

the other guys in the group and

56:33

they actually had to talk about how

56:35

they needed to be less funny because

56:37

the fun the humor was becoming a

56:39

distraction and somebody brought up you know

56:41

in their own male way like I

56:43

think that sometimes we're about to go

56:45

deep and then someone makes a joke

56:47

and even though that joke was really

56:49

good we don't go back to where

56:52

we were and we don't go as

56:54

deep so they actually work on being

56:56

less funny in that group but look

56:58

at the work that you do you

57:00

sit for hours a week and you

57:02

learn and you ask people questions and

57:04

you're working on yourself I'm not surprised

57:06

that you have a group of peers

57:08

that you can go to for that

57:10

but I would wager that the average

57:12

man doesn't have that the average man

57:14

doesn't have that and I feel like

57:17

there are going to be so many

57:19

women who are listening and watching this,

57:21

and they're like, I want that for

57:23

my husband. What is the evolutionary basis

57:25

for this? This is what I was

57:27

thinking the whole time. I was like,

57:29

did we lose the man's group at

57:31

some point in our past? And is

57:33

that why we're adding it back into

57:35

our lives? Like, what was, what used

57:37

to do this job before? So what

57:39

I've heard, and I think evolutionary biology,

57:41

you always have to take certain things

57:44

of the grand assault, because people can

57:46

kind of explain things of the grand

57:48

assault, because people can kind of explaining,

57:50

a lot of times men were sitting

57:52

next to each other and they were

57:54

having these conversations on the savanna and

57:56

that's often why like guys prefer to

57:58

do activities side by side and not

58:00

facing each other and so you had

58:02

men who were in conversation with their

58:04

peers or you know and outside and

58:06

outside yeah hey heard you getting divorced

58:08

right Right, or it's like, you know,

58:11

why it's so good to have conversations

58:13

in the car. I feel like you

58:15

had a lot of men that were

58:17

in groups at church. You had men

58:19

who were in the Elts Club, you

58:21

had veterans that were meeting. We actually

58:23

feel like this is a time where

58:25

much fewer men are getting together. And

58:27

this is all of the amazing research

58:29

that's happening now around loneliness, is that

58:31

the average young guy is spending many

58:33

fewer hours a week with their peers

58:35

face-to-face. that's the same thing. And so

58:38

I feel like we need this in-person

58:40

time with our friends to develop these

58:42

relationships and instead we have people on

58:44

TikTok, people on Twitter, watching other people

58:46

live their lives. You brought up two

58:48

interesting things. When is your your your

58:50

friend group? I have a similar group.

58:52

Same eight guys I live with my

58:54

freshman year at UCLA. For 30 or

58:56

40 years we've been kind of constant

58:58

contact email now on what's up. When...

59:00

Your friend had something bad happen to

59:02

him. I think for a long time

59:05

men have weighed in and stood empathy

59:07

for each other. What none of my

59:09

male friends have ever done, their friend

59:11

group would say, is I've never heard

59:13

one of my male friends go, I'm

59:15

depressed. I'm just super fucking lonely and

59:17

depressed. You just don't hear that from

59:19

them. I'm struggling with anger. I'm, I

59:21

have, all of a sudden, I have

59:23

erect all this function. You would just,

59:25

I've never heard one of my male

59:27

friend. when their mom dies or they

59:30

get divorced we weigh in with a

59:32

lot of empathy but you never hear

59:34

them really open up because men are

59:36

worried that if we display weakness another

59:38

man might kill us and take our

59:40

shit from us or the women aren't

59:42

going to want to have sex with

59:44

us so there's still I think a

59:46

huge inability for men to proactively talk

59:48

about how they're really feeling and then

59:50

you talked about a board of directors

59:52

a great board of directors for a

59:54

man in his 20s unfortunately Not unfortunately,

59:57

is a girlfriend. Yeah. And I'll just

59:59

use personal experience. I had a great

1:00:01

girlfriend when I was 24, and she basically

1:00:03

said to me, if you don't stop getting

1:00:05

high every night, I'm going to stop having

1:00:08

sex with you. That was very motivating

1:00:10

for me. I really liked being with

1:00:12

a partner. Without the guardrails of

1:00:14

a romantic relationship, I think

1:00:16

men are just, I don't want to say, lost,

1:00:18

but women create more social

1:00:20

connections outside of a romantic

1:00:23

relationship. And sometimes that absence

1:00:25

of a romantic relationship, they

1:00:27

pour that energy... into friendships and

1:00:29

their professional life, whereas men start

1:00:31

pouring it into video games and

1:00:34

read it and porn. So the fact that

1:00:36

only one in three men in America

1:00:38

under the age of 30 has a

1:00:40

girlfriend and two in three women has

1:00:43

a boyfriend, you think, well that's mathematically

1:00:45

impossible. It's not because women are

1:00:47

dating older, because they want more

1:00:49

economically and emotionally viable men. If

1:00:51

I hadn't been in relationships that were

1:00:54

great guardrails for me in terms of

1:00:56

my own behavior, my own ambition, Without

1:00:58

the prospect or the existence

1:01:00

of a romantic relationship, men

1:01:02

have worse outcomes than women

1:01:05

who don't have. And do you agree with

1:01:07

what I'm saying? Does the research

1:01:09

bear that out? You know, it's

1:01:11

interesting because part of me where my

1:01:13

head goes is like, are you asking

1:01:15

women to do the emotional labor of

1:01:17

raising men? And when you phrase it like

1:01:20

that... it sounds really negative, but from anecdotal experience

1:01:22

from my own life, you know, I've been with

1:01:24

my husband for 10 years, I think we both

1:01:26

really shaped each other. But like even yesterday, he

1:01:28

text me and he's like, I'm going to get

1:01:31

an Uber instead of renting a car at the

1:01:33

airport. You've taught me how to be such a

1:01:35

savvy traveler. Like that's a small example, but it's

1:01:37

like you really do influence each other. And I

1:01:40

think that I think sometimes about my single friends

1:01:42

and how they go to bed at night and

1:01:44

they don't have a person next to them to

1:01:46

give them advice and to listen to them talk

1:01:49

about their day. And I think that

1:01:51

when we're in long-term relationships there's

1:01:53

an element of raising each other

1:01:55

and building memories together and making

1:01:57

each other better and having that

1:01:59

investment. Right. That's why I just all

1:02:01

these women that come to me and

1:02:03

all these men that are looking for

1:02:05

love that want relationships and something is

1:02:08

happening right now where the gap just

1:02:10

seems to be widening and these relationships

1:02:12

aren't happening. And this is even true

1:02:14

in teenage relationships. So it used to

1:02:16

be that for baby boomers and Gen

1:02:18

X, three quarters of men had had

1:02:21

a relationship in their teen years. And

1:02:23

now it's... under 50%. And so if

1:02:25

you start building your relational skills at

1:02:27

an early age, then you get better

1:02:29

and better at dating over time. But

1:02:31

if, as you said, by the time

1:02:34

you're 30, you haven't been in a

1:02:36

relationship. That's seen as a red flag

1:02:38

to a lot of people. And so

1:02:40

I think we have a problem now,

1:02:42

but I'm really projecting that we're going

1:02:44

to have a much greater problem in

1:02:47

the future. for people in their 20s

1:02:49

that we haven't talked a lot about.

1:02:51

I had Dr. Analemke from Stanford on

1:02:53

my pod talking about addiction and something

1:02:55

we're just starting to come to grips

1:02:57

with and as I read more about

1:03:00

it, I think porn is really... Let's

1:03:02

talk about porn. Well, personal experience. I

1:03:04

used to go on camp and the

1:03:06

only reason I graduated from UCLA, I

1:03:08

graduated with a 2.27 GPA. If I

1:03:10

graduated with a 1.97, I wouldn't graduate

1:03:13

it. Not an it not the only

1:03:15

motivator but a real motivator for me

1:03:17

was the prospect of meeting someone I

1:03:19

could go on to campus and there

1:03:21

might be a chance I'd meet friends

1:03:23

be social and Possibly meet a potential

1:03:26

romantic partner. It was very motivating and

1:03:28

if I'd had porn on this and

1:03:30

on my screen always available I'm not

1:03:32

sure I would have gone on campus.

1:03:34

I would just would have spent a

1:03:36

lot more time at home And unfortunately

1:03:39

the deepest pocketed most talented companies in

1:03:41

the world are trying to convince young

1:03:43

people that they can have a reasonable

1:03:45

facsimile of life on a screen with

1:03:47

an algorithm. And what I say to

1:03:49

young men I coach is it, I'm

1:03:52

not going to tell you not to

1:03:54

consume porn, but try to modulate it

1:03:56

because I think that fire of wanting

1:03:58

to meet... someone and wanting to demonstrate

1:04:00

excellence and being, having perseverance and enduring

1:04:02

rejection and getting your shit together and

1:04:05

dressing well and smelling nice and showering

1:04:07

for God's sakes, that mojo that desire

1:04:09

is incredibly important for society and we're

1:04:11

taking young men's mojo away with frictionless

1:04:13

open access on-demand porn. Have you seen

1:04:15

these no-fap communities? Yeah. Have you seen

1:04:18

this? Yes. Okay, so I was listening

1:04:20

to this episode of Modern William, Chris

1:04:22

Williamson, and he was interviewing Hamza, who

1:04:24

was self-identifying as a former red-pilled person.

1:04:26

And he was talking about how much

1:04:28

it changed his life to try to

1:04:31

enter the no-fap community. Which means no

1:04:33

masturbation. And so I do think that

1:04:35

porn is a huge problem. My first

1:04:37

job out of college. was running the

1:04:39

porn pod for Google. So what this

1:04:41

meant was that we would sell ads

1:04:44

for the porn advertisers. This team does

1:04:46

not exist anymore. This was a long

1:04:48

time ago. My parents were like, I

1:04:50

sent you to Harvard and now you're

1:04:52

selling ads for pornography. But. When I

1:04:54

look back, I'm like, what was I

1:04:57

perpetuating? Because I feel like there's just

1:04:59

so many problems with what technology is

1:05:01

doing in terms of replacing human connection.

1:05:03

So let's just project out. Chat TPT

1:05:05

is already amazing. I'm currently in my

1:05:07

Google feed getting ads for replica. And

1:05:10

the ads say, get your perfect AI

1:05:12

boyfriend, always there for you. So you

1:05:14

think about the fact that. Real life

1:05:16

relationships are messy. I tell my husband

1:05:18

on a weekly basis, please throw your

1:05:20

contact lens in the garbage. And every

1:05:23

week we have a disagreement about that.

1:05:25

Well, guess what? Your online girlfriend, she

1:05:27

doesn't mag you. She doesn't tell you

1:05:29

to pick up your socks. She only

1:05:31

tells you how great you are and

1:05:33

always tells you that you're doing the

1:05:36

right thing and how was your day.

1:05:38

Then you insert sex robots. Okay, so

1:05:40

you have your emotional needs met. Maybe

1:05:42

you're watching porn. while engaging with your

1:05:44

sex robots? Why would you want to

1:05:46

go through the very challenging potential rejection

1:05:48

of real-life relationships? And I feel like

1:05:51

if all these things come to pass,

1:05:53

which it seems very likely that they

1:05:55

will, we are truly in a crisis

1:05:57

moment when it comes to birth rate

1:05:59

and future generations. And it impacts them,

1:06:01

it'll impact the economy because the skills

1:06:04

you have to develop to be successful

1:06:06

in the mating market are life skills.

1:06:08

You have to be able to endure

1:06:10

rejection. You have to have a sense

1:06:12

of humor. You have to be able

1:06:14

to read the room. Show me a

1:06:17

guy who's good in a bar. I'll

1:06:19

see a guy probably be good in

1:06:21

a boardroom. And the skills you have

1:06:23

to develop as a young man, if

1:06:25

you want a romantic and a sexual

1:06:27

relationship, pay dividends the rest of your

1:06:30

life. And if you don't develop those

1:06:32

skills, I think it impacts your life

1:06:34

across a bunch of dimensions. This is

1:06:36

something I'm worried about for Gen Z

1:06:38

in general. So I did a ton

1:06:40

of research with post-pandemic Gen Z dataers,

1:06:43

men and women in the UK and

1:06:45

the United States. And such a big

1:06:47

theme that came out of it was

1:06:49

that they don't have rejection resilience. And

1:06:51

I think that we hear this in

1:06:53

many aspects of life. So someone that

1:06:56

I'm close to, he's the former Dean

1:06:58

of Brown, he's a professor of It

1:07:00

used to be that his office hours

1:07:02

were empty and that's when he could

1:07:04

do his reading or play solitaire. But

1:07:06

now students come basically saying, tell me

1:07:09

exactly what's going to be on the

1:07:11

test. Tell me exactly what to write

1:07:13

in my paper because they are not

1:07:15

willing to fail. I have friends who

1:07:17

are managers at Google and they give

1:07:19

somebody feedback in a Google doc and

1:07:22

the person is crying because they take

1:07:24

that as extreme rejection. And so if

1:07:26

you don't have the resilience built up

1:07:28

to fail, then you are not going

1:07:30

to take riskss. And so I feel

1:07:32

that I have my dream job. Nobody

1:07:35

messaged me on LinkedIn and said, hey

1:07:37

Logan, do you want to study dating

1:07:39

and relationships? No, I invented this job

1:07:41

and now I get to have it.

1:07:43

And same thing is true with relationships.

1:07:45

It's not about waiting for the perfect

1:07:48

person to show up. It's about becoming

1:07:50

a great person who somebody else chooses.

1:07:52

and going after what you want. I

1:07:54

want to talk about all of this,

1:07:56

and it specifically offers some solutions to

1:07:58

the young, to the parents, to the

1:08:01

boys, to the men that are listening.

1:08:03

We had a young man actually write

1:08:05

in on this subject, and he said,

1:08:07

I've suffered with crippling loneliness, and so

1:08:09

I've spent over $1,000 hiring women online

1:08:11

just to talk to me and to

1:08:14

keep me company. On top of that,

1:08:16

I've spent several thousand dollars more engaging

1:08:18

in other business with them. After doing

1:08:20

this for nearly a year now, I

1:08:22

still feel incredibly unfulfilled. And on the

1:08:24

subject of porn, 30% of internet traffic

1:08:27

is now related to porn. With about

1:08:29

80% of that porn traffic coming from

1:08:31

men and 20% coming from women, I

1:08:33

actually had a conversation on this podcast

1:08:35

before about porn. And finally enough, the

1:08:37

top comment was, by the way, us

1:08:40

women, what get porn addicted to. Because

1:08:42

it was a bit of a blind

1:08:44

spot to me, but I think that's

1:08:46

something that's worth acknowledging. And the stats

1:08:48

are staggering in terms of how higher

1:08:50

porn consumption correlates to higher probabilities of

1:08:53

depression. What do you do about it?

1:08:55

Like on an individual level, I get

1:08:57

it, try not to watch porn, but

1:08:59

I mean, that doesn't seem like incredibly

1:09:01

great advice because if you're lonely, you're

1:09:03

not getting laid. No one wants to

1:09:06

date you for all the reasons we've

1:09:08

talked about today. Restraint seems to be

1:09:10

a pretty shitty solution. Okay, so I

1:09:12

coach young men I take two to

1:09:14

three on at any time, and I

1:09:16

don't know if this is a right

1:09:19

way But it's my way. I'm like

1:09:21

you got to lean into your advantage

1:09:23

when you're our age you have more

1:09:25

You have capital you have more money

1:09:27

than time. They have capital they have

1:09:29

a lot of time and I ask

1:09:32

them to unlock their screen and I

1:09:34

say to them I gamble with options

1:09:36

I gamble and my age I still

1:09:38

gamble I preach about low-cost index funds

1:09:40

and I buy call options it's gambling,

1:09:42

but I know it I watch porn.

1:09:44

I try and modulate my use so

1:09:47

I can put the majority of my

1:09:49

sexual energy into my partner, but I

1:09:51

watch porn. Because I want them to

1:09:53

not feel like I'm going to judge

1:09:55

them. And they unlock their phone. And

1:09:57

I say, we're going to... find eight

1:10:00

to 12 hours. And then we're going

1:10:02

to reinvest that capital and

1:10:04

we're going to reinvest that capital

1:10:06

and hire ROI investments. It is so

1:10:08

easy to find eight to 12 hours. I can sometimes

1:10:11

find seven hours or 15 hours

1:10:13

just in TikTok. You look at screen

1:10:15

time. I look at screen time and I say,

1:10:17

all right, come through with me, we're going to

1:10:19

find eight to 12 hours. And then we're going

1:10:21

to reinvest that capital and

1:10:23

three investments. One, we're going to

1:10:25

start working out and getting fit. You're

1:10:28

going to work out three times a week with weights.

1:10:30

You should be able, the human male form is

1:10:32

spectacular. You should be able to walk

1:10:34

into any room under the age of 30 if you're

1:10:36

a man, and know that if shit got real you

1:10:39

could kill and eat everybody or outrun them. I

1:10:41

need you to be strong. You're going to be

1:10:43

more mentally healthy. You're going to

1:10:45

be kinder. Look at the people who

1:10:47

break up fights at bars. They're big

1:10:50

strong men. Look at the people who

1:10:52

defend their country. You want to be

1:10:54

strong as a man? It feels fucking

1:10:56

amazing. Testosterone, your bone structure, your muscle

1:10:59

mass, it's amazing. Lean into that. We're

1:11:01

going to get strong. Two, you've

1:11:03

got to start making some money.

1:11:05

And the kids, you know, to be honest,

1:11:07

the kids I'm coaching are

1:11:09

really struggling. These are kids at home

1:11:11

at the age of 23 with their mom,

1:11:14

not getting along with their mom. Nothing

1:11:16

going on. If you have a phone, you

1:11:18

can make money. I don't care if it's

1:11:20

lift, task rocket, because you get a taste

1:11:22

for the flesh. And the way to start

1:11:24

making a lot of money is to start

1:11:26

making a little bit of money. Because you

1:11:28

start to figure out the economy, how could

1:11:30

I make more money? Maybe at some point,

1:11:32

could I buy a car and hire a

1:11:34

driver to be an oob? What is the way?

1:11:37

Could I get a certification in plump? You

1:11:39

start figuring out and you start getting your

1:11:41

gregelands get going, oh my God, it's awesome

1:11:43

money. I can go to a concert. It

1:11:46

gets those Greek guns going and then the

1:11:48

third thing we're going to do is we're

1:11:50

going to put ourselves in the company

1:11:52

of strangers in the agency of something

1:11:54

bigger than ourselves twice a week. Church

1:11:56

groups, softball league, non-profit, chair,

1:11:59

whatever it is. And then, 3A, and

1:12:01

this is, I just started doing this,

1:12:03

I believe in it two times, and

1:12:05

it's an exercise, and I say, and

1:12:07

it goes to your, I think no

1:12:09

is the weight to success. Show me

1:12:12

someone who's successful, I'm gonna show you

1:12:14

a shit ton of nose. I've been,

1:12:16

I ran for sophomore, junior, senior, class

1:12:18

president, lost, I applied to 38 jobs,

1:12:20

I got one offer, nine schools, rejected

1:12:22

by seven. And that's why I'm successful,

1:12:24

is I was able to endure it.

1:12:27

So I said, this is what I

1:12:29

want you to do. I need you

1:12:31

to go up to a stranger at

1:12:33

wherever we're doing, church group, rider club,

1:12:35

riders club, whatever it might be, online

1:12:37

education, not online, excuse me, education, continuing

1:12:39

education, and you're gonna ask them out

1:12:42

for coffee, it's a friend. Hey, what

1:12:44

are you doing? You wanna watch the

1:12:46

game? Do you wanna watch the Liverpool

1:12:48

game? Let's the Liverpool. The goal is

1:12:50

no. And we're going to celebrate no.

1:12:52

Because you're going to call me and

1:12:54

I'm going to say, did you ask

1:12:57

someone out for coffee or to a

1:12:59

bar? And most likely, they'll have said

1:13:01

no. It'll be polite. They'll become excused.

1:13:03

And then I'm going to ask you

1:13:05

if you're OK. And you're going to

1:13:07

say yes. And that's the victory. It's

1:13:09

interesting, because if you go on Tech

1:13:12

Talk or if you go on X,

1:13:14

you'll find a lot of videos of.

1:13:16

women filming themselves as a guy inappropriately

1:13:18

came and made a gesture to them

1:13:20

and then like publicly shaming them on

1:13:22

the internet. It's very popular to do

1:13:24

it in the gym. They set up

1:13:27

a phone, they're working out, a guy

1:13:29

comes over and asks if they need

1:13:31

help with the weights, it then goes

1:13:33

viral online because that guy was being

1:13:35

inappropriate. Like you shouldn't. So like as

1:13:37

a guy it's quite complicated to know

1:13:40

how and where you can roll up

1:13:42

without being filmed and going viral. So

1:13:44

we talked about the first dating paradox,

1:13:46

which is the idea that women now

1:13:48

need more for men and are raising

1:13:50

the bar because they can be providers

1:13:52

on their own, but men weren't taught

1:13:55

how to do that and they're sometimes

1:13:57

shame for it. So I think the

1:13:59

second big dating paradox is that men

1:14:01

are expected to lead and to approach,

1:14:03

but I truly feel like in a

1:14:05

post- me too era, era, it's much

1:14:07

more confusing. And so so many people

1:14:10

say to me, I don't want to

1:14:12

meet on an app that's not romantic,

1:14:14

I want to meet in real life.

1:14:16

But I'm not finding that people are

1:14:18

meeting in real life because people are

1:14:20

afraid to approach each other. I think

1:14:22

one is being afraid of being called

1:14:25

creepy, but the other one, which is

1:14:27

what you're talking about, is that this

1:14:29

culture of making Tik Talks or going

1:14:31

online with this data. There's a lot

1:14:33

of women waiting for men to approach

1:14:35

them, but then shaming the men who

1:14:37

do. I think one of the solutions

1:14:40

there is we should allow people to

1:14:42

shoot their shot in a non-creepy way.

1:14:44

Can I just say something to that?

1:14:46

If the guy rolls up and he's

1:14:48

six, four and he's, you know, gorgeous,

1:14:50

it's fine, it seems. The difference between

1:14:52

creepy and romantic is the perceived attractiveness

1:14:55

of the person making the overture. I

1:14:57

think that that is true. If you

1:14:59

are super hot, it's less likely to

1:15:01

be perceived as creepy. But you have

1:15:03

all these people that are saying, I

1:15:05

want to be approached and they're not

1:15:08

being approached. And so there was this

1:15:10

rise of run clubs last summer, right?

1:15:12

Everyone said, the new dating app is

1:15:14

the run club. I asked everywhere I

1:15:16

go, have you met someone at a

1:15:18

run club? No, people are not really

1:15:20

meeting there. So since 2017, the number

1:15:23

one way that people are meeting is

1:15:25

meeting, want more things to happen offline,

1:15:27

they actually have to approach each other.

1:15:29

And I'm just not seeing that happen.

1:15:31

But my understanding is the majority of

1:15:33

women still expect the man to take

1:15:35

the initiative. Absolutely. And this is one

1:15:38

of the most frightening stats I've seen.

1:15:40

According to Pew, more than 50% of

1:15:42

men between the ages of 18 and

1:15:44

24 have never asked a woman out

1:15:46

in person. And I just find that

1:15:48

so upsetting and Because that means they're

1:15:50

either not asking people out or they're

1:15:53

asking them out online, or quite frankly,

1:15:55

they can't demonstrate any sense of excellence.

1:15:57

And I think the beautiful thing about

1:15:59

human sexuality is sometimes you don't even

1:16:01

know why you're trying. because someone, you

1:16:03

like the way they smell, you find

1:16:05

out they're funny. And that happens in

1:16:08

person. But we need one more third

1:16:10

spaces, more places people can meet. And

1:16:12

also, I actually think it would be

1:16:14

helpful to have in the senior of

1:16:16

high school a class called adulting, or

1:16:18

amongst other things you teach them about,

1:16:20

the interest rate on a credit card.

1:16:23

In a little thing, my kid can

1:16:25

do integers, and he doesn't understand the

1:16:27

interest rate on his credit card. And

1:16:29

also, quite frankly, I think young men

1:16:31

need guidance around how to express romantic

1:16:33

interest while making the other person feel

1:16:36

safe. And also, that if you express

1:16:38

romantic interest and ask someone out for

1:16:40

coffee and they say, no, you're both

1:16:42

going to be fine. You haven't committed

1:16:44

a crime against humanity. As long as

1:16:46

you're respectful and you don't make the

1:16:48

person feel uncomfortable, but men aren't even

1:16:51

asking women out. Everything you're saying is

1:16:53

what I'm seeing. So I was talking

1:16:55

to this incredible 16-year-old girl who built

1:16:57

this AI chatbot called Ask El and

1:16:59

she's taken all the relationship science research

1:17:01

that she's seen and she's trained this

1:17:03

chatbot and she's trying to help teens

1:17:06

get safe and empowered dating advice. I

1:17:08

asked her what is the number one

1:17:10

question that you're getting and it's how

1:17:12

to ask someone out. And so I

1:17:14

think people are really struggling. It's not

1:17:16

that teens in all of human history

1:17:18

had the secret, it's that they were

1:17:21

willing to do it and fail, and

1:17:23

now we're just not seeing that. And

1:17:25

so I think that we have glossed

1:17:27

over the pandemic. It was this really

1:17:29

traumatic time, really scary stuff happened, and

1:17:31

we don't want to talk about it.

1:17:33

But people that came of age during

1:17:36

the pandemic, their social skills are worse.

1:17:38

They missed out on critical moments of

1:17:40

becoming a human, and we are seeing

1:17:42

that. that came from something, it came

1:17:44

from parenting, it came from digital addiction,

1:17:46

it came from the pandemic and online

1:17:49

learning. And I think that if you

1:17:51

do not have the social skills to

1:17:53

approach someone and ask them out, there

1:17:55

just will be literally fewer couples. I

1:17:57

want to throw a malltoff cocktail into

1:17:59

this and something that's controversial. I've got

1:18:01

a pushback on. I think one of

1:18:04

the enemies amating is that there's too

1:18:06

little drinking. If you look at millennials,

1:18:08

they spent 30 billion dollars in alcohol.

1:18:10

Gen Z, it's crashed to two billion.

1:18:12

Peter Atia and Andrew Huberman have declared

1:18:14

war on drinking. I think young people

1:18:16

need to drink more and go out

1:18:19

and make a series of bad decisions

1:18:21

that might pay off. I don't see

1:18:23

drunkenness, I see togetherness. And I don't

1:18:25

know how it was for you and

1:18:27

your relationship and your relationship and your

1:18:29

relationship. and the romantic opportunities I've had,

1:18:31

not always, but often alcohol played a

1:18:34

role. And I worry that with a

1:18:36

lack of going out, being out of

1:18:38

the house, and also a lack of

1:18:40

drinking, that we've taken away a social

1:18:42

lubricant that breaks down some of the

1:18:44

walls and some of the initial awkwardness

1:18:46

and entry. into a potential romantic relationship?

1:18:49

I think some of the increase in

1:18:51

being sober, sober curious, comes from interest

1:18:53

in being healthy. So we hear from

1:18:55

Gen Z. I don't want to have

1:18:57

anxiety the next day. They are much

1:18:59

less likely. And it's expensive. Yeah, they

1:19:01

are much less likely to millennials to

1:19:04

feel like there's a two-ging. drink minimum

1:19:06

for dates. But in general, we're seeing

1:19:08

less risk-taking behavior from Gen Z. They

1:19:10

are getting their licenses far later, if

1:19:12

at all. They are losing their virginity

1:19:14

much later, if at all. And so

1:19:17

I feel like there's this rise of,

1:19:19

or there's this decrease in risk-taking behavior,

1:19:21

which in some ways is great, you

1:19:23

know, fewer kids dying in car crashes

1:19:25

and people being responsible. But I just

1:19:27

feel like people are having... People are

1:19:29

missing out on the experience to make

1:19:32

mistakes as a young person. And I

1:19:34

think when I think back to my

1:19:36

college experience, if there had been cameras

1:19:38

that have high quality video on them

1:19:40

at all times, I would have lived

1:19:42

a very different college experience. I am

1:19:44

so grateful that Instagram was not there

1:19:47

when I was in college. And so

1:19:49

if you live in a surveillance culture

1:19:51

where at any moment somebody is snapping

1:19:53

the room and they could see what

1:19:55

you're doing, you're going to take fewer

1:19:57

risks. And I just feel like there's

1:19:59

this in... culture of people being very

1:20:02

safe and part of dating, part of

1:20:04

mating, is making mistakes, taking risks and

1:20:06

failing. So what do we do about it

1:20:08

Logan? Speaking, Scott gave a really good

1:20:10

sort of advice for the young man

1:20:12

or the young person who's trying to

1:20:15

increase their mating value, their dating value.

1:20:17

If I mean, what advice would you give to

1:20:19

a young man about how to be attractive?

1:20:21

Because there's going to be a lot of

1:20:23

young men listening right now. So first of

1:20:25

all, I love what Scott said in terms

1:20:27

of his advice, and I feel like it's

1:20:29

one of those things where the secret to

1:20:31

happiness, the secret to success, is simple, but

1:20:33

hard. So it's not like there's infinite

1:20:35

things you need to do. It's actually quite

1:20:37

a simple plan, but it's quite a simple

1:20:40

plan, but it's quite hard to execute on

1:20:42

it. A few things that I would add.

1:20:44

So one is I have this friend, Sam

1:20:46

Pampar, he started the hustle, the podcast, the

1:20:49

podcast, the podcast, My First Million, My First

1:20:51

Million. My First Million. My First Million. My

1:20:53

First Million. develop these passions and really talk

1:20:55

about them on dates because he found that

1:20:58

women were really drawn to the fact that

1:21:00

he was pursuing other activities. So he got

1:21:02

really into denim and he would talk about

1:21:04

these denim meets that he would go to

1:21:07

and he found that women were really drawn

1:21:09

to that. He's very into the growth

1:21:11

mindset and working on himself. He felt like

1:21:13

that was something that women were so drawn

1:21:16

to, how he was growing because if you

1:21:18

think about the projections, well, when he

1:21:20

met my friend Sarah, he wasn't making a

1:21:22

lot more than him. but she could see

1:21:24

that he had a great path ahead of

1:21:27

him because he was constantly working and improving

1:21:29

himself. The other thing I would tell

1:21:31

men is, through my research, I found that

1:21:33

men think, I need to be perfect, I

1:21:36

need to be six feet tall. Look, women

1:21:38

are not expecting you to fly

1:21:40

them to the moon. They want effort.

1:21:42

Remember the name of their best friend.

1:21:44

Text them when they had a hard meeting

1:21:46

and say, how did it go? Plan a

1:21:49

thoughtful date. And so I think that you

1:21:51

have men over here saying, if I'm not

1:21:53

six feet tall, I don't have a chance.

1:21:55

So why participate anyway? And then you have

1:21:58

women saying, in some ways, I just... I

1:22:00

just want you to be an effortful nice

1:22:02

person and I'm not even getting that. And

1:22:04

so I think that for men they can

1:22:06

actually get much farther than they think and

1:22:09

be better than 90% of men by doing

1:22:11

some of these bare minimum things that other

1:22:13

men aren't doing. So I have this question

1:22:15

that I ask in my book, which is

1:22:17

when you're deciding if you should break up

1:22:20

with someone. If your partner were a piece

1:22:22

of clothing in your closet, what would they

1:22:24

be? Is it my clothes or her clothes?

1:22:26

Yeah, yeah, your clothes. Oh, okay. And it

1:22:28

really has to be gut reactions. So Scott,

1:22:30

if you thought of one, I want to

1:22:33

hear it. I thought of like a black

1:22:35

silk shirt, and that's probably because that's where

1:22:37

we spend quality time together. It's when I'm

1:22:39

wearing a black silk shirt. Special occasions, date

1:22:41

night, restaurant. Make an effort. Do you feel

1:22:44

good in it? Yeah, of course, I feel

1:22:46

my best in it. Yeah. Do you have

1:22:48

one for your wife? Brunel, Kuchenel, Kashmir, Phoenix,

1:22:50

Swire, makes me look fantastic, makes me better,

1:22:52

and is beautiful. Yes, and mine for my

1:22:55

husband would be this awesome orange robe that

1:22:57

I have that represents being at home, I

1:22:59

love the orange color that's really bright, and

1:23:01

it represents our family time. So I've asked

1:23:03

this question to... I feel ashamed I felt

1:23:06

like mine was so super crucial. No, no,

1:23:08

no, yours was great! cashmere viewing actually not.

1:23:10

I think your answer. Family orange, I feel

1:23:12

so shamed. No, no, no. I think your

1:23:14

answer is wonderful and I actually in general

1:23:16

find that outer wear answers are very strong

1:23:19

because it means that you feel warm around

1:23:21

them. It's you at your best. It's your

1:23:23

best. It's your fucking fabulous. That's all that

1:23:25

matters. Your answer was great. The answers that

1:23:27

worry me or something like a wool sweater

1:23:30

that feels good, but then it's itchy. So

1:23:32

I take it. So I take it. So

1:23:34

I take it. So I take it. So

1:23:36

I take it. So I take it. So

1:23:38

I take it. So I take it. So

1:23:41

I take it. So I take it. So

1:23:43

I take it. Point is, for years I've

1:23:45

been asking people this question. Well, now I

1:23:47

want to ask people the question of, if

1:23:49

you were a piece of clothing in your

1:23:52

closet, what would you be? And I feel

1:23:54

like we spend so much time saying, I'm

1:23:56

looking for this in a partner, this is

1:23:58

the checklist. Well, look in the mirror. Do

1:24:00

you have those traits? And so for somebody

1:24:02

who says, I'm a ratty sweatshirt. and it's

1:24:05

not the thing that I would choose to

1:24:07

wear, well, then work on yourself. And so

1:24:09

I feel like there's a lot of feelings

1:24:11

of I'm gonna relation shop, I'm gonna look

1:24:13

for a partner the way I look for

1:24:16

Bluetooth headphones. Well, a lot of that is

1:24:18

about breaking people down into these parts. And

1:24:20

I feel like we should spend less time

1:24:22

thinking about the checklist for a partner and

1:24:24

more time thinking about who am I and

1:24:27

am I somebody who would be chosen. Which

1:24:29

demographic of women do you find struggle the

1:24:31

most as it relates to mating and dating?

1:24:33

So I work with a lot of very

1:24:35

successful women and that's also because I'm expensive

1:24:38

to work with and that's who my clients

1:24:40

are. But I have a newsletter where I

1:24:42

hear from 85,000 people. And so what I'm

1:24:44

hearing is that a lot of women are

1:24:46

saying men are intimidated by... The amount of

1:24:49

money that I make they say that they're

1:24:51

not going to be but the more successful

1:24:53

I become the more threatened they are I'm

1:24:55

just talking to tons of women personal friends.

1:24:57

I feel like At my house on one

1:24:59

side of me and then two sides over

1:25:02

are women who are having babies Could they

1:25:04

call it like single mother by choice where

1:25:06

they literally were just like I can't find

1:25:08

a man and I want to become a

1:25:10

mom So I'm gonna do it by myself.

1:25:13

And so I feel like there are just

1:25:15

all these great women who are saying Logan

1:25:17

I'm following your advice I'm putting myself out

1:25:19

there I do all these things, but they're

1:25:21

just not finding partners Do you find that

1:25:24

the more successful woman becomes the more difficult?

1:25:26

a man that will not feel emasculated by

1:25:28

her success? I don't think that there's an

1:25:30

exact correlation, because it really depends who the

1:25:32

guy is. There are guys out there who

1:25:35

are like, let's be a power couple. But

1:25:37

I feel like there are women who just

1:25:39

feel like there is not enough good guys

1:25:41

for them. And I'm curious what you think

1:25:43

about this, but I live in the Bay

1:25:45

Area. I'm seeing so much polyamery. And I

1:25:48

think polyamery is interesting. I'm pro-polyamery. 50% of

1:25:50

marriages end in divorce, obviously are one size

1:25:52

50. it's all approached marriages and working. But

1:25:54

I'm also wondering, well, let me tell you

1:25:56

the story. I went to this dating event,

1:25:59

and the dating event had five single women

1:26:01

who were great, and their friends were hyping

1:26:03

them up. And then there was two guys,

1:26:05

and they were both polyamorous. And so I

1:26:07

wonder, if you're a guy who feels like

1:26:10

there's not that many good guys, why should

1:26:12

I have to choose? I feel like that's

1:26:14

a trend that I'm worried about. Porsche polygamy.

1:26:16

If it's never been better than better than

1:26:18

better to be. a very attractive male, but

1:26:21

you have so much opportunity, it does not

1:26:23

incent good behavior or long-term relationships. And I

1:26:25

work with these guys, and you might think

1:26:27

that they're the happiest people in the world.

1:26:29

They are having sex. They are getting a

1:26:32

lot of attention, but they're suffering from decision

1:26:34

paralysis. And these are some of the guys

1:26:36

that hit... 40, 42, and they haven't gotten

1:26:38

married, they don't have kids, and they sort

1:26:40

of are like, why would I ever settle

1:26:42

down if I don't have to, or I'm

1:26:45

going to wait as long as possible, but

1:26:47

they don't understand the opportunity costs, which is

1:26:49

building a life with someone, having kids. Every

1:26:51

year that you wait to have kids is

1:26:53

a year that your kids will be alive

1:26:56

without you. And so I really feel like

1:26:58

these people in the top percentage, yes, they're

1:27:00

having a much easier time, but they also

1:27:02

have problems because they're having decision paralysis and

1:27:04

they're not settling down. But I would just

1:27:07

say, I think the reality though on the

1:27:09

ground is that if you're a high status

1:27:11

male, you think ages on your side. And

1:27:13

it is. And because the reality is the

1:27:15

ballot, the math is just unfair to women.

1:27:18

It is. Because if you're a 30-year-old male

1:27:20

making really good money, and you know, relative,

1:27:22

like just not unattractive, at 40, you're going

1:27:24

to be even sexier. Your sexual currency goes

1:27:26

up. I do think that there's a point

1:27:28

where it starts to go down, and I've

1:27:31

seen that with my coaching clients, and part

1:27:33

of that is just how the dating apps

1:27:35

work, that if you are unattractive woman. and

1:27:37

you set your age maximum at 40, I

1:27:39

do see that those men see diminishing returns

1:27:42

after that age. Well, especially if they haven't

1:27:44

ever been in a long-term relationship. Right. Then

1:27:46

that is seen as a clear red flag.

1:27:48

No matter where I am in the world,

1:27:50

it seems like everyone is drinking matcher. And

1:27:53

there's a good chance that that matcher you're

1:27:55

drinking is made by a company that I've

1:27:57

invested more than seven figures in, who are

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1:28:45

What role does feminism and the rise of

1:28:47

feminism play in all of this? Because I've

1:28:50

had people on my podcast. I think actually

1:28:52

our last episode we published was a lady

1:28:54

who's a child psychology. She's been that way

1:28:56

for three decades. And she came on and

1:28:58

said that. the feminist movement has let men

1:29:01

and women down in some ways. There's been

1:29:03

great upsides, but there's also been a cost.

1:29:05

And one of the things she was really

1:29:07

big on, which I thought would be extremely

1:29:09

controversial, it turns out it wasn't in the

1:29:11

comment section, is that she believes women should

1:29:14

be there for the first two years of

1:29:16

a child's life. And I was like, I

1:29:18

questioned her and that was like. And then

1:29:20

I looked at the stats and I looked

1:29:22

at the research and she basically makes the

1:29:25

case that because the mother is producing certain

1:29:27

hormones. So I searched, it was true, we

1:29:29

fact-checked that episode. And then beyond there, the

1:29:31

man, the father, brings out another... hormones

1:29:33

in the young child,

1:29:36

which are about play

1:29:38

and adventure and all

1:29:40

these kinds of things.

1:29:42

So she makes the

1:29:44

case that we've kind

1:29:47

of lied to women

1:29:49

and we've told them

1:29:51

that they can have

1:29:53

it all. They can

1:29:55

have an incredible career.

1:29:58

They can also be

1:30:00

incredible mothers. And she

1:30:02

says that in her

1:30:04

office, she often sees

1:30:06

mothers coming in saying

1:30:08

that they're 39 years

1:30:11

old, they're struggling, they're

1:30:13

trying to do IVF,

1:30:15

they feel like they

1:30:17

will lie to, throwing

1:30:19

all of that out

1:30:22

there. I'm going to quote Scott

1:30:24

to Scott, which is you can have it all

1:30:26

just not at the same time. Yeah, I don't,

1:30:28

you know, it's, we can

1:30:30

talk about what is the best hormone balance and

1:30:32

brings out the best in kids. And then

1:30:34

there's the real world. And my

1:30:37

partner was working at Goldman Sachs with two babies and

1:30:39

getting up at five in the morning and it was

1:30:41

hell for her. And at the

1:30:43

same time, and I, you know,

1:30:45

at the same time, I was

1:30:47

struggling with trying to get economic traction

1:30:49

because my whole identity as a man, I'm

1:30:51

not proud of this, has been defined by money.

1:30:54

So is mine. I didn't think

1:30:56

men say this enough. Like,

1:30:58

yeah, I, I thought this was really

1:31:01

weird because we're in Austin right

1:31:03

now. And my team put me up in

1:31:05

a hotel and it's just like a normal hotel. I'm

1:31:07

like, so I don't give a fuck. My girlfriend comes

1:31:09

to town tonight. Immediately, my brain goes,

1:31:11

oh my God, we need to move into a

1:31:13

better hotel at Airbnb because my girlfriend, I've been with

1:31:15

her for seven years, she doesn't give a fuck.

1:31:17

She doesn't care about material things. She doesn't have a

1:31:19

Louis Vuitton anything. She's a breathwork. She's a yogi, right?

1:31:22

But there's still this part of me, even

1:31:24

at this stage where I'm like convinced she's

1:31:26

not going anywhere where I constantly think about I

1:31:30

need to be successful. I need to have

1:31:32

money. I need to demonstrate strength. Or

1:31:35

she won't like me. It's

1:31:37

so, it's so weird because it's not true. Like objectively,

1:31:39

I know it's not true, but it's in me. I

1:31:42

don't know. I think it's mostly true. I

1:31:46

think in a capitalist society, the

1:31:48

healthcare of your children, the opportunities your

1:31:50

children have, your

1:31:52

ability to provide, your

1:31:55

ability to take care of your

1:31:57

parents, unfortunately in our society, is

1:31:59

so... correlated to money? That I

1:32:01

think at the end of the day,

1:32:03

masculinity kind of comes down to

1:32:05

provider, protector, and perpetrator. And I

1:32:08

think every young man should take at

1:32:10

least start with the notion they're

1:32:12

going to be the economic provider.

1:32:14

And by the way, that might mean getting out of

1:32:16

the way and being more supportive of your

1:32:18

partner who happens to be better at

1:32:20

the whole money thing than you have.

1:32:22

That's part of masculinity too. But a