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1:07

Peacog. Para Seltin and are back. back.

1:09

That's hot. Loves it. a For

1:11

a show -stopping reunion that

1:13

will prove putting on

1:15

an opera putting on an opera is

1:18

anything but simple. Sinasasasas,

1:21

We're really good at this. at this. One

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for sure, sure, they won't be Good

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we've got a show to do. to do. Paris and

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-core. the Encore, a reunion

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special streaming now only on

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peacock now, only on Peacock. I'm

1:36

Tony everyone, welcome to

1:39

and welcome to the discourse. Welcome

1:51

back guys guys to just me

1:54

on this introduction. introduction, I'm I'm

1:56

up up episode that Carl

1:58

does feature on. on, which... is another

2:00

one of our of our old motion pictures episodes

2:02

we occasionally haul out of haul out

2:04

and up into two parts up into two

2:06

for your listening pleasure listening pleasure this

2:09

one this goes back to I

2:11

think the end of 2019 it

2:13

it will be because it was

2:15

the the five years years ago when of

2:17

rise of emerged and thoroughly emerged and thoroughly

2:19

disappointed to a great deal of

2:22

people myself included and Karl and I saw it

2:24

and I saw it as an

2:26

opportunity to discuss the Star Wars

2:28

franchise around the around the Christmas period more

2:30

the idea of the

2:33

of journey in in and

2:35

Star Wars Wars was

2:37

a really interesting discussion, quite a

2:39

long one for motion pictures a long

2:41

one for motion splitting it up into

2:43

two parts for you to enjoy. two

2:45

parts for festive season. festive will

2:47

be back and I will be

2:49

back for... future episodes in the new

2:51

year new still airing some of our some

2:53

of our episodes or things that haven't been

2:56

that haven't haven't re -ed anything on the

2:58

discourse it's all new It's all new quote-unquote some

3:00

of it was previously bonus material and

3:02

some of it is bonus pictures episodes that

3:04

have been slightly remastered like this one

3:06

episodes that have being re -ed so they don't

3:08

get lost really and the midst of

3:10

time so this is a great discussion

3:12

I think we really enjoyed it of time. So

3:14

this this is part one I think we really enjoyed

3:17

it and yeah this sit back one. and

3:19

enjoy this conversation about Star Wars

3:21

and the and journey. journey.

3:23

Let's start by putting a big

3:25

by putting a big spoiler

3:27

collection on this on this

3:29

discussion, So what are we saying? people What

3:32

are we saying? people listening haven't yet

3:34

seen and of Skywalker they should to, they should

3:36

save the podcast until they have, yeah? I

3:38

think so. And you know, I know

3:40

we did have this conversation, didn't we? didn't we?

3:42

I put a call out for some thoughts

3:44

and some people have been kind enough to

3:47

give me them, which we'll talk about

3:49

later, but about later said, can I message you

3:51

with you with actual spoiler thoughts? and first I went no

3:53

let's keep spoiler and you're like come on. Let's

3:55

do some spoilers. and So you know files files. it's right

3:57

right isn't it because it will get into

3:59

the meat this this is one of those one of

4:01

those one of those one of those franchises those it

4:03

is all about. is all about the revelations

4:05

it's not It's not just about a big event. it

4:08

It a bit like like where they said, you

4:10

know, don't spoil the know This is a bit

4:12

like, game this is spoil like don't spoil the the Star Wars

4:14

in -game, I guess. so yeah we're we're going to

4:16

do that. just do just watch the film first. surely you

4:18

let the film. Come on come surely by now.

4:20

now well it seems like everybody I know has

4:22

been I know has been the people I would expect

4:24

to I and see it have seen it. to

4:26

go But let's do something slightly different and

4:29

let's build up to it because I think

4:31

it'd be interesting to establish where we are

4:33

in relation to Star Wars ourselves. And I

4:35

don't just mean this film, I mean generally, to

4:37

you know. Wars our history with

4:39

I Wars just mean this film I it for

4:41

you? I mean... I mean You're a kind of a

4:43

kind of a franchise fan in a lot of ways.

4:45

Is a lot of ways. one of

4:47

Wars one of the franchises

4:49

you really like? Have you always

4:51

liked it? liked are are of love

4:53

love for me, certain things. certain

4:55

things. do I'm going to do

4:57

our obligatory X-files because we can't

4:59

go we can't go motion pictures Yeah, this

5:01

time. it My three I've always

5:03

said three the X -Files. said are the Star

5:06

Trek. Trek. And James Those

5:08

are my are my three. devoted franchises. Those

5:10

are the are the ones just love

5:12

and I'm by and I can't wait

5:14

for. wait for. Wars Wars would be be

5:16

definitely under those And I think some

5:18

people have been obsessed with collecting

5:20

all the stuff around them you

5:22

know the content, you know, getting your

5:24

content, in you know, getting involved in fandoms

5:26

and all this kind of thing. I've

5:28

done that previous three I mentioned. the previous done

5:30

that I've never done that for Star

5:33

Wars. It's always been something that

5:35

I've enjoyed I've enjoyed because fiction is my my

5:37

genre. genre. I love escapism, I love

5:39

I love I'm a child

5:41

of that of that, know, post-70s, Spielbergian, blockbuster

5:43

era, you are and I've always enjoyed it.

5:45

Do always enjoyed it. over Do

5:48

I salivate over it? Am

5:50

I constantly thinking about Star

5:52

Wars? Wars? No. I'm always

5:54

quite excited, got excited really was really

5:56

excited for the rise of Skywalker

5:59

for a... And I like I was excited for

6:01

last Jedi and the Force Awakens, so it

6:03

is it is thrill. to these films. How

6:05

do you feel? you, are you, know one oh

6:07

one of know two your franchises are the

6:09

same as mine. So how do you feel? he

6:11

Star Wars your third or no? it's not.

6:13

No, I think yeah, x -files and Bond for

6:16

me are probably the two big ones. And then

6:18

there's a bunch of stuff in the second

6:20

tier. And I'm not sure how I would describe

6:22

myself with Star Wars. I'm definitely not a

6:24

hardcore fan. Even a casual fan

6:26

might kind of be stretching it. I'm definitely, you

6:28

know, I'm I'm not at the other end of the

6:30

spectrum. I'm not a hater. Like, I really like

6:32

some of these films. So I

6:34

don't know what the term is to describe my

6:36

response to Star Wars, but I wonder if part of

6:38

it is because And

6:40

I mean, if us two are anything,

6:42

it's youthful, right? So we're... with We're

6:45

not old enough, are we, to have seen

6:47

the original trilogy in the or anything like

6:49

that? And I think that might be a

6:51

big part of it, because I first saw

6:53

these films in even 97 or 98. Which

6:56

is when the special editions had come

6:58

out on DV on VHS sorry, and

7:00

I was given that box set at

7:02

some point. and I can't help feeling I was just a

7:04

bit late to the party, like I was 11

7:07

at that point and I feel like I might

7:09

have liked them. I liked them But I might have

7:11

liked them even more if I'd seen them when

7:13

I was like seven or eight, you know And then

7:15

I remember seeing the Phantom at the cinema I

7:17

can't even remember my dad took me to see that

7:19

and he'd never seen the Star Wars film or

7:21

bloody hell That was either that was his first one.

7:23

Jesus Christ. I think he was just bewildered by

7:25

all this talk of like intergalactic trade tariffs and all

7:28

this Tax non -stop. Oh

7:30

Oh, Um, Um, but like to illustrate the fact that

7:32

I was never a fan of that point I didn't

7:34

even bother going to see Attack the Clones in the

7:36

cinema. I saw it on DVD eventually Yeah, don't blame

7:38

you so this point I've seen all the films most

7:40

of them I've seen more than once some of them

7:42

I like quite a bit some them I like, you

7:44

know, um unreservedly But yeah,

7:46

I just wouldn't regard myself as a fan, but

7:48

my son, by contrast, I took him to

7:50

see The Force Awakens When it came out, was

7:52

aged eight at that point and he's more

7:55

of a fan of these films than I ever

7:57

was, you know So, yeah, what about this

7:59

new trilogy then? Let's discuss it it We'll

8:01

come on to the rise of Skywalker in

8:03

a minute, but the force awakens in

8:05

the last Jedi The Force do you feel and

8:07

kind of? How do you feel You know, set

8:09

the Star Wars you know, again. you,

8:11

have you enjoyed them? rolling again? I have

8:13

enjoyed them? Yes, I Awakens The Force Jedi. I

8:16

think Jedi. I was technically alive

8:18

when the alive were the prequels were, the

8:20

still sort of still to an

8:22

end. to an was born and I was

8:24

born was 83, but I watched.

8:27

83. I I watched them when I was I

8:29

was I remember seeing the special edition special

8:31

the cinema, at actually, when they re when the

8:33

originals. That was there, the originals. That was a And

8:35

then like you the prequels in the cinemas. watched

8:37

the prequels in They were a great experience,

8:39

were a but I think it's fair to say

8:41

that the but I think it's fair to say in the

8:44

end, and in a way that I don't

8:46

think the And in a way I don't think the

8:48

the same way, has I feel same way. I

8:50

feel like... The Phantom was enormous, you know, it

8:52

was was big in 1999, big know, 1999,

8:54

of retrospectives been a lot of

8:56

retrospectives how year a 1999 and how

8:58

great a year it was

9:00

for, pop particularly this you of all

9:02

cinema, things all kinds of different

9:04

things out there, the Matrix, safe part

9:06

of the know, of part of the

9:08

movie, yeah, of stuff. and all kinds, American

9:11

beauty, all all kinds and all kinds,

9:13

you know, the all these all these

9:15

films people have been revising, You know, ideas in their one

9:17

that people have been revising ideas of, their

9:19

ideas of. I I think force Awakens was a similar

9:21

feeling. feeling. You You know, I remember going to

9:23

the cinema for that. for that. Major jaw in

9:25

in 2012 out we found out that

9:27

Disney had bought Lucasfilm and there's new Star Wars?

9:29

What? I remember I remember though I that even

9:31

though I was never it was never one

9:34

of my it was never one of my three I

9:36

was I was still astonished and excited. And the buzz around

9:38

the around the Force Awakens in the cinema was

9:40

It was It was one of the best I've

9:42

ever experienced. And you don't you

9:44

don't get that very often. it wasn't quite wasn't quite

9:46

the same for the last Jedi. Jedi. But

9:48

both of those those films, I think,

9:50

I think managed to a lot of a

9:52

lot of the about the good

9:54

stuff about original trilogy and and

9:57

repurpose it it for a new a

9:59

new genera. Bye. It's more

10:01

complicated with the last Jedi.

10:03

obviously, But The Force

10:05

Awakens, you know, it's been long accused,

10:08

hasn't it, of being a remake of

10:10

A New Hope. And I don't completely

10:12

agree with that, but I do see

10:14

what people mean. It does follow similar

10:16

beats. But A New Hope is a

10:18

great archetypal story. And

10:20

if The Force Awakens does retread some of

10:22

those beats, it does it in a

10:24

way that is aware of its own history.

10:26

And it does it in step with

10:29

modern adventure and, you know, the franchise has

10:31

taken a cue from other things in

10:33

the last 20, 30 years. So

10:36

And then the last Jedi really tries to

10:38

forge its own path and go into

10:40

these fascinating new directions. So yeah, the first

10:42

two films, absolutely great. There

10:45

is, however, a problem with

10:47

the force car. So,

10:50

know, this is where

10:52

I part ways. Yeah,

10:56

well, just before we, you

10:58

know, we get there. I mean, I, I, yeah, I really

11:00

liked the first two films in this new trilogy as

11:02

well. I think I think they complement

11:04

each other really well, you know, I think, and I

11:06

didn't. necessarily you think

11:08

that immediately upon seeing the last Jedi, but

11:10

I've seen the last Jedi a couple

11:12

of times in the past week for

11:15

the first time since the cinema, just

11:17

to kind of, Firstly to prepare for the

11:19

Rise of Skywalker, and then I watched

11:21

it again after the Rise of Skywalker. Okay.

11:23

To see how it looked retrospectively. But

11:25

yeah, no, think this new trilogy has created

11:27

new characters that are really engaging. I

11:30

think that for the most part in the first two

11:32

films they balanced out really well with the returning ones.

11:35

I think the thing with last Jedi, I think

11:37

we'll get more into this because it's directly relevant

11:39

to what they did with Rise of Skywalker, isn't

11:41

it? it? But whenever I looked online about

11:43

The Last Jedi, I was just

11:45

all these wildly polarized takes about it.

11:48

And as ever, I was just a bit centrist out. I

11:50

was just kind of somewhere in the middle on it all, you

11:52

know, but yeah. We'll get more

11:55

into that, I think, But

11:57

What do we think of the wave at the rise

11:59

of Skywalker? come along. and and

12:01

concluded this new sequel trilogy. Did

12:03

it do it well? it do it well? In short?

12:06

No. It depends. It depends on what

12:08

you want, I think. depends. It depends

12:10

on what you want. I

12:12

think, you know, I've written

12:14

a review about this. I

12:16

have Ray. another article

12:18

all been mulling it over. of had a

12:20

lot of I've been mulling it over,

12:22

had a lot of conversations, called on

12:24

I've been called to other things,

12:26

to be honest, by certain people

12:28

online. the worst the worst thing you've

12:30

been there. I think I was

12:32

told that know don't know that I and

12:34

that I was called is a nice,

12:36

which is a nice who

12:38

hates Star Wars has thing. Someone

12:40

who Star Wars. Wars has

12:42

always hated Star Wars.

12:44

slight You know, those

12:46

kind of I should have dug out

12:48

the most ones have dug out the most

12:51

fun ones really, know shouldn't I, and sort of

12:53

gone through them. them. But you know, when you

12:55

put a review that isn't anything other than

12:57

than glowing particularly for Star Wars, Star then

12:59

there are a lot of people out

13:01

there who struggle with that. They struggle

13:03

with constructive criticism, which is is

13:05

problem that The Last Jedi last Jedi However,

13:07

what you're finding in this case

13:09

is that there are a lot of

13:11

people who as opposed to hate as

13:13

Rise of Skywalker rise of loving it

13:15

passionately and unreservedly and refuse to acknowledge anything

13:17

else, whereas it was quite the opposite

13:19

with The Last Jedi for reasons,

13:21

as you say we'll talk about. reasons as

13:23

you say we'll talk about. The rise that. problem

13:26

is that it fundamentally ends

13:29

up doing the exact opposite of a

13:31

lot of the things that last year

13:33

I tried to do. Jedi tried to do. not

13:35

embracing some of those. those chances and

13:37

some of those possibilities. It

13:39

ends up being being the most most obvious

13:41

and kind of kind of Star Wars

13:43

film JJ Abrams could Abrams could possibly

13:45

have made. it really pains me.

13:47

It really genuinely pains me, to JJ

13:49

JJ Abrams I I the the guy.

13:51

I really do. know, I've been

13:54

a huge fan of his for

13:56

nearly 20 years, ever since ever

13:58

first arrived in 2001. in 2001. I follow

14:00

this career, I love all of the

14:02

majority of his work, but this is the

14:04

first film he's done where I just

14:06

don't think it works from pretty much the

14:08

opening scene all the way through to

14:10

the end. And I think one of the things

14:12

I've thought since is that I think had

14:14

he been the one to make all three of

14:16

these films. you would have ended

14:18

up with a better film here. I think

14:21

you wouldn't ended up with The Last Jedi,

14:23

which I think wouldn't be worth that trade

14:25

ultimately, but I think you would have had

14:27

a very sort of clear and

14:29

consistent three films that all

14:31

felt as part of a

14:33

a piece in the same

14:35

way that the original trilogy

14:38

to some extent does Whereas

14:40

don't really think that is

14:42

the case now, and it's gonna

14:44

be one of those films

14:46

that if you're a fan, who

14:48

wants a very,

14:51

you described it as empty calories, and

14:53

I think that's one of the best

14:55

descriptions I've heard. If you want empty

14:57

calories, This is, you're gonna love

14:59

this. If you want a bit more substantial meat

15:01

to chew on. It's not

15:03

a film for you. Yes, and by contrast,

15:05

I think The Last Jedi served up a meal

15:07

that was a bit more difficult to digest.

15:10

Yeah, which a lot of people struggled with but

15:12

ultimately I think was for the better. So

15:14

yeah, I mean, I tend to like the stuff

15:16

we cover on this podcast. I either like

15:18

them a lot or I like them more than

15:20

I expected to. Like, even back to Ram, -

15:22

Where could this be? going, Ram? Even

15:27

back to Rambo First Blood, it wasn't quite as bad

15:29

as I thought it would be. And then I really

15:31

like Joker and Frozen 2 and the Irish. I

15:33

loved, you know? but the run had

15:35

to come to an end in those at some

15:37

point. So I went into this

15:39

having really enjoyed the first two thirds of the trilogy. hoping

15:43

for it to end on the high. I

15:45

mean, I always knew that ending the story like this is

15:47

a tricky thing, isn't it? Yeah, yeah. yeah. But I

15:49

was optimistic. Optimistic. So sadly I

15:51

only enjoyed this film up to a point

15:53

and I think it has to go down

15:55

as quite a big disappointment. It's just overly

15:57

frenetic, it's choppy, makes some really regrettable choices.

16:00

I think where the earlier films had a healthy

16:02

approach to nostalgia this film kind of wallows in

16:04

it at times. And

16:06

whilst it does have some things that are good, so

16:08

I'm not coming out and saying this is terrible. I

16:10

think it's a two -star film for me rather than a

16:12

one -star film or, you know, whatever whatever. It has

16:14

some things that I like, but the overall impression it

16:16

leaves is very, very mixed, and... Well

16:18

the first thing we can touch on is how much

16:21

do you think this is just a product of circumstance

16:23

in the sense that obviously Carrie Fisher's death meant

16:26

they had to make some changes. JJ Abrams

16:28

wasn't the original director for this song, was

16:30

he? was brought on board later. And

16:32

I heard an interview with him where

16:34

he said that he had a few months

16:36

less time on this than he did

16:38

on The Force Awakens overall, So do you

16:40

think this is a case of a production

16:42

that just kind of, I don't know,

16:44

kind of pinballed out of control or something?

16:46

It could be. there There's been some

16:48

interest speculation recently online From supposed insiders about

16:50

a lot of the changes that happened,

16:52

some of which I think is rubbish, some

16:54

of which I think might have some

16:57

basis in merit in that the emperor wasn't

16:59

always the plan, that there was going

17:01

to be something else. There was apparently a

17:03

role for Matt Smith that they filmed

17:05

some aspects of and it never happened. And

17:07

that Abrams ultimately isn't very happy with

17:09

the final product. now of that. he's

17:11

probably You know, just chat

17:13

chatter. but But they're usually in these kind

17:15

of things, he's some nugget of truth. And

17:17

I think The probability is that when

17:19

was asked by Kathleen Kennedy and

17:21

worked with George Lucas and

17:24

The Force Awakens when Disney bought

17:26

Lucasfilm. they he Lawrence Kasdan who

17:28

was a key part of the

17:30

original, particularly Return of the Jedi. Sat

17:33

down, they had a lot of time to break this story and

17:35

to figure out what they wanted it to be. to

17:38

a really understanding and

17:40

I don't think that happened in this

17:42

case. Kasdan he wasn't there, and I

17:44

think he's a secure and safe pair of

17:46

hands, even if Solo didn't necessarily strike

17:48

a chord. And that's kind of the thing.

17:50

think it's, this kind of Star Wars,

17:52

it's one of the reasons I think they're

17:54

taking a bit of a break, because

17:56

I think this kind of Star Wars extended

17:59

universe hasn't really worked in the way

18:01

they hoped hoped because had too many too many

18:03

many cooks the the broth they've not

18:05

had a very clear consistent vision

18:07

of what they wanted all this to

18:09

be not like Marvel all Universe like

18:11

instance which is one of the reasons

18:13

that's worked so well for instance, which a

18:15

little bit all over the place

18:17

you say trying to tap into that

18:19

seemed a element all over the place, order to

18:21

get to tap and give the fans what

18:23

they want order to get means the moment

18:25

you don't give the fans what

18:27

they they want. get a a last Jedi, and you know

18:29

you get all of that get all of

18:31

that backlash. a very difficult position

18:33

very difficult position of rise

18:35

of Skywalker almost seems like

18:37

the the apex of that.

18:39

of that. And I I think

18:41

everything that ostensibly Star

18:44

Wars Star Wars probably should be

18:46

on a on a basic level, but

18:48

but it's also everything that it's

18:50

kind of already done. done

18:52

on maximum turbo to the to

18:54

the point that it just gets a little

18:56

bit much. know, I You know, I came that film a

18:58

little little with a similar kind of headache

19:01

to the one I came out with at

19:03

the end of at of the Caribbean of Pirates of

19:05

the Caribbean 3, where, which was, I was I'd

19:07

mean this is I'd say this is

19:09

better than that because that's just rubbish

19:11

rubbish. it was it was it was a was

19:13

a noisy loud frenetic didn't that didn't

19:15

really make a lot of sense and

19:17

I felt felt... along similar lines with this,

19:19

to be honest. So yeah it may it

19:21

may be these production are all these

19:23

production issues, they certainly didn't help, I

19:25

don't think. like with Carrie Fisher here just

19:28

feels really awkward. you kind of feel only feel for

19:30

them. does feel does feel really uncanny and

19:32

you feel for them because what else could

19:34

they have done, I suppose? I suppose? Maybe start

19:36

the start the story where she's already dead

19:38

or something but but I think I think

19:40

they've kind of cobbled it together from, together

19:42

know, deleted scenes scenes and things. So it's that,

19:44

but another element to consider is how,

19:46

like, calculated some of these decisions were

19:48

and how much much really a conscious

19:50

attempt to kind of move away from move

19:52

Last Jedi the the divisiveness of it. you

19:55

know, You we talked about talked about Now I thought

19:57

that I thought that there's a There's a lot

19:59

admire. in the last Jedi about nostalgia, because

20:02

it's of this cautionary take on the past,

20:04

isn't it? isn't it? Yeah. Into like the like

20:06

the depiction of Luke know, he know, he says, throws

20:08

away the light sober course course at the beginning and

20:10

it's like, you know, you don't need Luke

20:12

Skywalker. Skywalker. And, you know, you know, did you

20:14

expect me to do? to do? Face the the

20:16

order order single-handedly? All that stuff, And Kila ran talking about

20:19

need to let the to die die and...

20:21

Even Yoda kind of of jokes around about how

20:23

the sacred Jedi weren't big page turners and all all Yeah,

20:25

just this overall this overall message that you had

20:27

to learn from the failures of the

20:29

past, as well as like the big you know.

20:31

successes, me, that know? And then for me,

20:33

that trajectory into of should have carried on

20:35

into this, I think this should have been

20:37

the least nostalgic installment of the trilogy

20:39

now We know them pretty well by got these characters, we

20:41

were them pretty well by this point. amount I mean, they

20:43

were always to to be a certain amount of I to earlier

20:46

films, but I think they should have kept it in much

20:48

as much much as they could. as they could. But I I

20:50

think the swings too far in the other

20:52

direction, doesn't it? Like, literally it? opening crawl

20:54

starts with the words, crawl starts with the words, the

20:56

dead speak. Yeah, no. Yeah, and like, so the I'm like, back

20:58

all of back all of a sudden kind of

21:00

tied of tied him, him, which we'll come

21:02

on to. But it's other things too,

21:04

isn't it? It's like. it? It's appearance

21:07

the appearance of Lando extended cameos

21:09

for Harrison Ford and Mark

21:11

cameos for And a lot of the nostalgic things

21:13

here just didn't do much for me. Like, I'm a

21:15

big Harrison Ford fan, but when he turns up, I was

21:17

just for me. This feels like a bit of

21:19

a a bit of a cheat. you feel about

21:21

that? Yeah, I I was exactly the

21:23

same. thought I was exactly people say, heard that was,

21:25

that really was amazing. was moving. like,

21:27

was it? amazing. It know, moving. I was I

21:29

get the I mean, I get the know, you Ben. seeing

21:32

Han and getting getting this kind of

21:34

fatherly wisdom from him, but but

21:36

that That should have been a real a real kind of.

21:38

And solo moment, and it kind of of

21:40

it was at that point. at

21:43

had too much of that too much of

21:45

that. We'd had, we'd for a fairly pointless

21:47

up for fairly pointless cameo. gives gives that back

21:49

to back to Ray, you you know, you couldn't

21:51

get more of a of a of

21:53

him as him as in The Last I suppose

21:55

you could argue that he's argue

21:57

learned that he was wrong. He says, wrong.

22:00

was wrong in the last Jedi and yes okay he does

22:02

learn to get to get his faith

22:04

in the the back in the last Jedi

22:06

but that still was the real Ryan Johnson didn't write

22:08

that film so so in nine you

22:10

could turn up as a ghost a

22:12

Rey and go and go go you go you go

22:14

and be me me you know it wasn't

22:16

it wasn't that at all and

22:18

then he literally rises the the out

22:20

of the of people have gone oh

22:22

I love that bit gone oh I like

22:24

oh come on oh come on on this

22:26

is just so cynical now you are you are

22:28

you are taking the taking the piss it is ticking

22:30

all those Star Wars ticking all those Star

22:32

Wars what you want to is what you want

22:35

to see. This is a character you

22:37

want to see want to feel like like

22:39

We've reached a point point with where

22:41

it is. now where it It

22:43

is is toxicity. toxicity

22:46

a lot you know, what one the

22:48

the big and this is not a

22:50

film, but it's as good as

22:52

one of the big success stories

22:54

for me stories this year. this year,

22:56

decade has been recently Watchmen, the

22:58

TV series Watchmen, which is a

23:00

phenomenal piece of television. piece and the

23:03

key message of that of that

23:05

story is all about how nostalgia

23:07

is dangerous, legacy is dangerous. And

23:09

we have to learn from the

23:11

past and not repeat it. and

23:13

and not to to that for answers.

23:15

And it's brilliant. It is brilliantly done.

23:17

deconstruction of all of that among

23:19

many other things. other things. And the The

23:22

argument for Star Wars is that

23:24

it shouldn't be something different. know,

23:26

Star Wars is a classic sort

23:28

of... sort of fairy tale

23:30

story. But the, I don't know don't know about you, but

23:32

the whole idea of a fairy tale is that it's magical. tale

23:35

is that it's magical. get

23:37

any magic from this. I got

23:39

a corporate exercise. I got a corporate

23:41

exercise that is meant to make

23:43

a billion dollars dollars. That concludes lot

23:45

of things that were set up

23:48

in the most obvious way. obvious way.

23:50

possible And I I didn't

23:52

get any sense of that magic

23:55

that magic and that thrill that,

23:57

like Like you say, positive

23:59

nostalgia. that I got watching

24:01

Force Awakens. It felt to me

24:03

like, you know the old experiment

24:05

with Pavlov's dogs, where they ring

24:07

the bell and the dogs salivate.

24:09

I could hear the bell ringing,

24:11

but it just, the wasn't coming.

24:14

though. But

24:16

obviously, like you say, for a lot of people, it

24:18

did. And that has had a, you know, a

24:20

significant positive reaction in this film

24:22

as well as... naysayers like us which is

24:24

fine. Yeah, it's interesting to this has approached

24:26

in nostalgia, because for me like, yeah I've seen

24:28

the and really liked it too and you're

24:30

right and also like for me if we're looking

24:33

back at a decade I think the biggest

24:35

nostalgic kind of success story in a way was

24:37

Twin Peaks The Return but again that was

24:39

a series that actively denied

24:41

people. and long -term fans

24:43

what they wanted for like absurd amounts of

24:45

time like characters you didn't return until

24:47

episode 16 and yeah you know various things

24:49

so I think yeah you have to

24:51

be cautious about nostalgia in some ways Okay,

24:54

let's go into some of topic

24:56

issues then from the film. So

24:58

Heritage, which you've written about. So

25:01

the last year they had a very inclusive message, didn't

25:03

it? It had a more diverse cast than seen before.

25:06

And it also had this revelation that Rey

25:08

wasn't part of a dynasty that was tied to

25:10

the Force, like we may be. expected

25:12

her to be. You know,

25:14

and memorably the film ends with that scene with

25:17

the boy with the broom on the canto

25:19

bite that planet And it just reinforced this idea

25:21

that you're not just significant because of who

25:23

you are or where you come from And

25:25

this was divisive and there are people with

25:27

issues with the character of more generally aren't

25:30

there. This whole idea that she represents her

25:32

quote unquote Mary Sue tongue character. And

25:35

anyway, the Rise of Skywalker kinda walks back on

25:37

some of these things, doesn't it? And it

25:39

does this in a way that's arguably a bit

25:41

crafty, because it technically doesn't overturn that aspect of the

25:43

last Jedi completely. So she isn't

25:45

significant significant because of her parents, but

25:47

because of her grandfather as Palpatine. So

25:49

yeah, it's regrettable that they've done this,

25:51

isn't it? There was a great tweet

25:53

I saw today, which was somebody had

25:55

said. look, I've thought

25:57

of this, so you need to now. somebody

26:00

fucked

26:03

Palpatine which

26:06

Which is a very good point.

26:09

It is, the problem I

26:11

think we you know I that.

26:13

The problem with this is

26:15

that the false awakens did suggest

26:17

that Ray was special. It

26:20

had a whole idea of a

26:22

whole of her being connected to Luke's

26:24

lightsaber. She had a force vision in

26:26

which she saw Ben's past with Luke,

26:28

she heard Obi -Wan Kenobi say her name

26:30

when you McGregor, come in and get

26:33

a few quid. She saw a lot

26:35

of these things. now On

26:37

the one hand, when the Last

26:39

Jedi sort of wrote that off, part

26:41

of me was a little bit

26:43

like, mmm but the Force Awakens has

26:45

foreshadowed this, so I don't know

26:47

about that. And ultimately, The Last Jedi

26:49

doesn't definitively can put that in

26:51

stone anyway Or the only reference you

26:53

get is when Kylo Ren says,

26:55

you know in your heart of hearts that

26:57

you'll know one. So there's no there's

27:00

nobody with a scroll going yet. Your

27:02

parents were Bob. Flange bang from

27:04

the planet Jack you know what

27:06

I mean it doesn't it doesn't

27:08

conclude it's just part of the Ryan

27:10

Johnson's bigger, broader message you doesn't matter if

27:12

Ray's got a destiny. It doesn't matter

27:14

if Ray is special. It doesn't matter if

27:16

she's a Skywalker or she's from. It's

27:18

not about that. It's not about where you

27:20

come from. It's about who you are

27:22

and it's about what you could be. And

27:24

like you said, whole final, that whole

27:26

subplot on canto bite and the whole final

27:28

image of the kid. I remember the

27:30

being a of speculation when the title came

27:32

out, The Rise of Skywalker. A

27:35

lot of people thought, optimistically, thought that

27:37

it might be some sort of metaphor

27:39

or an illusion, and that the Jedi

27:41

would be reborn with skywalkers you know,

27:43

and that it would become sort of

27:46

a name for this sort of rise

27:48

-up of using the Force based on

27:50

your own merit and not being anything

27:52

special. A little bit, I suppose, like

27:54

how At the end of

27:56

Buffy the Vampire Slayer a whole sort of

27:58

new legion of slayers are born You know and

28:00

that it's not all unbuffy to have

28:02

this destiny to be the chosen one but

28:04

ultimately, that really interesting concept

28:06

doesn't happen because Ray

28:09

or immediately, right from the

28:11

very beginning, is important.

28:13

Right from the very beginning,

28:15

she's from another dynasty,

28:17

another family, and... It's

28:19

sort of it comes back to

28:21

the message of you can only

28:23

be special if you are Linked

28:26

to people who have some sort of

28:28

magical path. and let's only person,

28:30

I said this in my piece, the

28:32

only person really who is truly

28:34

special. in this entire saga is Darth

28:36

Vader because he was immaculately conceived.

28:38

He didn't have a father, he

28:40

is basically the son of God

28:42

or the antichrist So on a

28:44

technical level he's the only one

28:46

who is special in quote -unquote

28:48

Skywalker wasn't, ultimately he ended up

28:50

going down this path as part

28:53

of this hero's journey. Ray special

28:55

because she always was because she's

28:57

a part of this destiny because She

29:00

was the daughter of the most

29:02

evil man ever. and it's like,

29:04

well, the grand granddaughter So it's a

29:06

little bit like the message is

29:08

just that. it's just playing

29:10

into that same recurrent trope

29:12

that the previous films did better,

29:14

the original films did better.

29:16

And I, it's just really sad

29:18

because the last Jedi really tried

29:20

to put out a message for for

29:23

children that was far more empowering.

29:25

and And this just ruins

29:27

it for a cheap shot, really,

29:29

for just playing those same beats over

29:31

and over again. Yeah, no, I

29:33

think if the Rise of Skywalker had

29:35

been kind of a direct sequel to

29:37

The Force Awakens. I think some of

29:39

these things would sit much more easily with

29:41

us. Yeah It's just the fact

29:43

they've thrown last Jedi under the bus. Yeah, I

29:45

think. yeah the thing with the last Jedi was

29:47

that... I I think it's a very

29:49

good example of how, and we've talked about this with

29:51

the whole Marvel V Scorsese debate, you know. but

29:54

the last Jedi was a good example of

29:56

how you can still have these big

29:58

tentpole franchises. But they can still look

30:00

very. interest, throw up very interesting cases

30:02

of cases of like a smuggling, you

30:04

know, know, where the kind of of

30:06

making this big juggernaut kind of

30:08

bend his will. will. And I think Ryan Johnson

30:10

had things things he wanted to to save the last

30:13

Jedi and he was able to a

30:15

surprising surprising be able to save him. to

30:17

save and to and of walk it back,

30:19

I think back I think sits And I think it

30:21

must it must be, I think there must have been

30:23

a clash with what clash with what Abrams kind

30:25

of envisaged being the case with these. these.

30:27

you you know, that X is eight and

30:29

nine. I think that, yeah, it just it

30:31

just has to have been kind of, he must have

30:33

seen it differently. have seen And then another place we can

30:35

see that is where the character place we can see that is

30:38

with the character. Rose, this

30:40

key Kelly in Tran's character, you

30:42

know, she travels with Finn, doesn't she, in

30:44

that in She helps him move towards know, she

30:46

place where he's doesn't she in engaged in

30:48

the rebellion. He's not just along for the

30:50

ride. the place again, her character was divisive.

30:52

The actress received quite a bit of bullying

30:55

online, I think, didn't she? Yeah. she? Yeah. I

30:57

think not really sure what the big issue was,

30:59

except that I think maybe some people thought they

31:01

were they were having kind of identity politics

31:03

should should throat or something, or something but

31:05

given that, it's very that in

31:07

the rise of Skywalker this of Skywalker, this shoved basically

31:09

sidelines to the sidelines, isn't she? done really

31:11

it's done really there's a because there's a

31:13

scene where she says she wants to

31:16

stay behind. other words In other words, they're

31:18

making it to her choice not to be as involved

31:20

in the narrative as she was before. it just feels like a

31:22

and it just feels like a bit of a

31:24

capitulation when, if anything, I kind of of wish they'd in

31:26

in the face of negative feedback just

31:28

just kind of doubled you know, but but... feels

31:31

like they of gave of gave in. I think one

31:33

of of the they they really wanted to

31:35

do with this film, and and talked

31:37

about this, was put those three characters

31:39

together. Ray, together, Ray Finn in a way a

31:41

they hadn't been hadn't of the previous two

31:43

films. know, Ray and Finn were together

31:45

and of the Force Awakens, but Poe

31:47

was off spending most of the film

31:49

captured, or most you know, under the desert

31:51

or whatever it was. under And then or

31:53

the second one, Poe has that entire

31:55

story with the has that entire story with Luke

31:57

and Finn is off on Finni's off on really

31:59

Boy. split apart so this was all about bringing

32:01

them together so there's no real place for characters

32:03

like Rose. know she you'd have to reply you'd

32:06

have to get rid of one of the droids

32:08

for her and that's not going to appeal to

32:10

people you know she would have become she would

32:12

have been a spare part in this the way

32:14

it was written in this sense But

32:16

it could have been different. know, it could

32:18

absolutely have been different. You could have had

32:20

them go off into different places and do

32:22

different things at the same time. There's no

32:25

reason that Rayo or Finn really needed to

32:27

go to Kajimi or whatever it was called,

32:29

you know, to that place where Poe has

32:31

the ex -girlfriend, you know, Kerry Russell. You

32:34

you didn't really necessarily need to have them

32:36

together for the whole film and it just

32:38

it was Seemed really forced to kind of

32:41

keep them there as much as possible until

32:43

Ray has to go off and face the

32:45

Emperor herself And I think that the sad

32:47

thing is that I really don't

32:49

think JJ Abrams would have even done any

32:51

of that Kanto bite stuff, you know,

32:53

because Ryan Johnson has proven himself, particularly with

32:55

these last two films to be a

32:57

very openly sort of liberal filmmaker, you know,

32:59

you only have to look at Knives which

33:01

is And to be honest,

33:04

Knives Out and Kanto Bite, there's a

33:06

similarity. Kanto Byte is all about

33:08

sticking two fingers up to the capitalists

33:10

and trying to destroy that system.

33:12

And Knives Out is all about a

33:14

rich, awful, awful, rich family who

33:16

are embroiled in this murder mystery. And

33:18

it's all about a class system,

33:20

ultimately. So he's very open about that

33:22

kind of politics. And I think

33:24

a lot of, frankly, a lot of

33:26

the Star Wars, I was called

33:28

an Edgelord, but I think I could

33:30

throw that back at certain people. A

33:32

lot of those hardcore Star Wars

33:34

fans, and not just Star Wars, in

33:37

all of these big franchises, it's

33:39

happening at all the time that any

33:41

time a filmmaker tries to put

33:43

what could be quite a progressive, liberal,

33:45

inclusive stance on something, there is

33:47

a real pushback from people who frankly

33:49

don't think the two should mix.

33:51

You know, mean, I was even told

33:53

for some of this

33:55

stuff and some of the politics and some of the underlying

33:58

stuff. in my review

34:01

of Skywalk Convention, The Last Jedi, said

34:03

I don't come on to

34:05

this I group to read about

34:07

politics I come here for

34:09

about come here for entertainment come

34:11

like well I'm sorry but

34:13

these films are political I'm sorry,

34:15

but these is an political, Palpatine is an

34:17

Uber fascist, he's He's sort of a well,

34:19

he's sort of a you know? Uber Hitler, you

34:21

know what I mean? what I mean? This

34:23

is that always been a been a saga about

34:26

trying to topple fascism. Well,

34:28

because even, even Star first Star

34:30

Wars film, amongst other things, was

34:32

explicitly constructed as about, as know,

34:34

an allegory about the Vietnam

34:36

War. about Yeah. War. Right, yeah, yeah, lot

34:38

of these people expect, you know? these I

34:40

mean, the other thing I was thinking is Yeah.

34:42

film just felt very risk I was to me.

34:44

like, know, film just or not, the last Jedi

34:47

was really pushing at the boundaries. know, because like

34:49

what a Star Wars film could do. the last Jedi

34:51

I was really yeah, I appreciate

34:53

that even more now a Star Wars

34:55

film could do. which was the complete opposite. So I'm

34:57

not not saying they I necessarily had to

34:59

like to off some familiar supporting characters to

35:01

be edgy or something like that, but. like

35:03

that, some of the things they did here didn't

35:05

make any impact. So you have like impact. So you

35:07

have like true backers demise, apparent demise is reversed

35:09

a couple of minutes, of isn't it?

35:11

isn't it's done really unconvincingly. C3PO's

35:14

put in in this kind of perilous position that

35:16

turns out not to be as dramatic as they

35:18

actually implied, you know. you know. And I

35:20

I don't know how much this is to do

35:22

with the fans or not, but or not, but this kind

35:24

of thing that I think can be disappointing about

35:27

franchise about franchise It feels like feels like the is

35:29

by people times don't want to colour outside

35:31

the lines, you know. outside the lines, you that

35:33

you can't draw a nice picture that way. picture

35:35

that way, But there is a limit

35:37

to like, how artistically successful you can

35:39

be with that approach, be I think. approach, I

35:41

But again, it feels like the it

35:43

just swung too far swung too far it? away here,

35:45

didn't enough? Yeah. I have to say Abrams is

35:47

a bit of a a for this. a

35:49

one You know, you this. have to look

35:52

at, have to look at his only other, I I would

35:54

say, really disappointing film, which which is Star Trekking

35:56

to Darkness, which depreciates, I think, every time

35:58

you watch it. and And it's got a last... that

36:00

just completely falls apart. Which

36:02

is is much, you know, it's

36:04

built around the fact the fact Captain

36:06

Kurt dies, then he's brought back by

36:08

back by blood. magical blood. bit of he's a

36:10

this kind of. for this to

36:12

sort of trying to sort of cheat and

36:15

suggest death and impact. then very quickly

36:17

reverse it, you know. it, you know.

36:19

really, it's really, mean, it's really, it

36:21

this cynically done seen it a cynically

36:23

done for quite a while.

36:25

with know, particularly makes no, I mean, it

36:27

I mean, it makes no

36:29

sense. the know, getout is suggesting is

36:31

suggesting something that isn't on isn't

36:33

on was Oh, there was

36:35

another transport ship. ship. Where? Where was it?

36:37

was it? Because I I I didn't

36:39

see it. know, it know it was it

36:41

was just really cynical cynical. thing was heavily

36:43

suggested in the trailers as well the trailers

36:45

as was going to sacrifice himself to sacrifice himself.

36:47

And it is, it's just a little bit

36:49

of little bit of a R2D2. he's back and you're a

36:51

and you're a bit like well if you're going

36:53

you're going to do this the have the

36:55

conviction to really pull it through could

36:57

could have done mean mean is is theoretically

36:59

the last saga film isn't really isn't

37:01

really necessary if they're really going to

37:03

sort of go into new places with

37:06

Star Wars Star Wars where are Teubaker and and 3PO really

37:08

going be in that. they could

37:10

have rid of they could have killed It would

37:12

have been a real have been a

37:14

real that properly happened and you're

37:16

like, you're he's a beloved character

37:18

for 40 years. it is trying to engender

37:20

a to peril a sense of peril

37:23

and danger and emotion any, there

37:25

isn't any, is where it is just

37:27

purely. of beats to tick off. of beats

37:29

to tick off bad writing, it's

37:31

bad writing it's just just bad writing

37:33

it's cynical writing and it's trying

37:36

to force emotion where films like

37:38

this films like just have to. we

37:40

mean, just before we move on

37:42

to like all the myth stuff and

37:44

everything, but but you mentioned Abrams a big

37:46

fan of of things. and things. And I like his work

37:48

like his work, too. for a bit of does come

37:50

in for a bit of he? I now, doesn't

37:52

he? a very talented I think he's a very talented it

37:54

as a and when I say that, I mean it

37:56

as a when I think that when people say that

37:58

kind of thing about him, they don't mean it.

38:00

complement. Yeah, you know, know, because I think it's quite

38:02

an achievement to have somebody who's able to

38:04

make a really good Mission make a film. Mission as

38:06

well as film good Star Trek film. good

38:09

Star Trek a really good good Wars film,

38:11

of course. And even down to stuff

38:13

like 8, which which you did, which is very

38:15

like the Spielberg film that film that

38:17

Spielberg didn't make. yeah, what is it that

38:19

yeah, what is it that draws you to it Is

38:21

it this kind of he has has normally for kind of

38:23

working within these kind of frameworks in a way

38:26

in a way that... I mean, he mean, you just he

38:28

gets it on an on an elemental level, doesn't

38:30

he? knows he? He he's doing. he's doing. I think he's, he's

38:32

like, he is a he is a bit of

38:34

the heir apparent to people like George Lucas

38:36

and and Spielberg. He's that Those the kind

38:38

of people he's accused of mimicking. But he

38:40

grew up watching those up of things. kind

38:42

He was heavily inspired by them. And I

38:44

think what he has that mixture of

38:46

the kind of kind of well -building wonder

38:48

that George Lucas managed to create

38:50

with. to create with. The The one thing that

38:52

George Lucas struggled with in his writing and

38:54

the way he developed things was really being

38:57

able to tap into that human emotion because

38:59

he's not really that kind of person. human

39:01

have to see him speak. that He's of person. awkward,

39:03

you only he's very sort of standoffish. He doesn't

39:05

really know how to engage with people. he's very

39:07

Spielberg has always seemed to be much more

39:09

of a kind of person who can do

39:11

that. people. And he has that sort of

39:13

human element and it comes out in a

39:16

lot of his films of person who can do Abrams, he's

39:18

good at that, has he mixes it element. very,

39:20

out in a been talked about films. many but

39:22

it's the whole idea of the Abrams

39:24

mystery box, which is something I would

39:26

encourage anyone to go and look at,

39:28

because to go this great at where he

39:30

talks about this great of a mystery box

39:32

that he's always been fascinated in, and that

39:34

every single JJ Abrams in has some

39:36

core mystery in it. some core mystery in it and

39:38

often there is also a a narrative

39:40

and that is something is he does

39:42

in both of both of Wars films. Wars

39:44

They are essentially quest narratives at one

39:46

point, point with when Poe Damrens strutting

39:48

about about in the the jungle. I turned to

39:51

my wife and said, this is Indiana

39:53

Jones and the Rise of Skywalker, of isn't

39:55

it? it? And she turned back and went, actually,

39:57

it's Harry Potter Harry Potter and the Sith Wayfinder. And I said,

39:59

well, yeah, it is. You know, know, it is that

40:01

of... Guy, stop talking talking in the cinema,

40:03

please. some decorum. some we weren't I promise, we

40:05

weren't breaking the code. We were no,

40:07

and that, and that's what, he's really good that, he's really good at

40:09

good at that. He's really good

40:12

at that escapism. He's really good at

40:14

that sense of adventure and propelling

40:16

you. you. You know, and I'll give it

40:18

give it, it's due, from minute one, minute one, you

40:20

this film throws you in it bang,

40:22

is just bang, bang, bang, bang, bang, bang.

40:24

bang, bang, bang. Normally though, Abrams manages, you

40:26

know, you you best work, like you

40:28

say, like you say, Mission Star Wars. Star Wars, Trek

40:30

2009, Super 8, he manages to he manages

40:32

to do it. with that sense

40:35

of, you know, and he doesn't, he's of shows, does

40:37

and he in in best episodes of it in the best

40:39

episodes of it in he does it in the best

40:41

episodes of of Lost, some of the best episodes of

40:43

Lost that he was involved in, he was there is

40:45

that sense of is to it. of proportion

40:47

to it. This... feels like it's hot mess. It's

40:49

mess. all It's just all over

40:51

the place he can't quite can't quite bring

40:53

all those elements together and that's

40:56

why I Think there is an I think I

40:58

is an element. think he needs

41:00

a strong writer with him as

41:02

well. And I don't really think think

41:04

Chris this instance was that person, whereas

41:06

Lawrence was. was And I think

41:08

that there is a bit of a bit of is a

41:10

bit of a So it is a shame and is a

41:12

shame and I'm certainly still a big fan

41:14

and I will champion him to anyone. to anyone,

41:16

just just think He flew a flew a bit the to

41:18

the here and got his wings burnt. I think I think know, most

41:20

filmmakers know, most filmmakers have things in their career

41:22

that go wrong, don't they? It doesn't end,

41:24

won't be back with whatever the next thing is,

41:27

you know, so to see. I mean, I'm be interesting to

41:29

see. I mean, I'm sure I'll see this

41:31

film again any rush to see it in any rush to

41:33

see it again. to decide where it

41:35

kind interested to decide where it kind of

41:37

sits in the franchise bad? it prequel level probably on

41:39

feel like it's probably on a par with

41:41

episodes one and two two, a bit more

41:43

of an enjoyable watch. watch. Neide, not

41:45

quite as good as as good as Revenge know. of the Sith,

41:47

I don't of thought it's around that point. It's

41:49

not as bad as the It's not two prequels. two

41:51

prequels. No, absolutely it's a it's a half

41:54

to three star film. So it sits

41:56

around Revenge of the Sith. Revenge

41:58

of the Sith. Thanks

42:00

a lot guys for listening. I hope

42:02

you enjoyed that first part of this

42:04

episode We'll be back for the second

42:06

part very very soon second part depending on

42:08

when you're listening to this. Hopefully

42:10

having a really merry Christmas to this hopefully having a

42:12

year one of the two Or happy I

42:15

both wish you that the two and much.

42:17

So wish you care much we'll see you

42:19

soon. and we'll see you soon