0:00

Liza! Good

0:02

to see you, my friends. It's been a while.

0:05

So I didn't adjust before we were

0:07

talking. This is your second Substack Live? I

0:10

just was on for an hour with the

0:13

great Steve Schmidt. And,

0:15

you know, that's an experience. The Steve

0:17

Schmidt experience is intense. Oh,

0:19

gosh, of course. So I

0:21

feel like... You know, you come

0:23

at your guests at a

0:25

slightly different speed. So going from

0:28

Steve to Don is an

0:30

interesting transition. You know, Steve's

0:32

like cocaine. You're like a downer. A

0:35

downer? No, I'm more of

0:37

like that. I don't mean that in a bad way.

0:40

But I don't know. We'll

0:42

see how this goes. Maybe I'll be

0:44

describing you as like cocaine at the

0:46

end as well. No, I'm more of

0:48

Molly. Let's just say something like that.

0:51

It's a love experience. It's very loving.

0:54

You look good. You sound good. It's

0:56

been a while. So

0:58

you're on Substack now. You have

1:00

your own newsletter, correct? Yeah,

1:03

it's called Telus T -E

1:05

-L -O -S. So

1:08

Telus .Substack or just Telus

1:10

.News. Tell us

1:12

what's going on in your life.

1:14

Yeah, that was, you know,

1:16

that little, the ability to call

1:18

it tell us and then,

1:20

you know, use the tell us

1:23

little pun. You know, that

1:25

definitely led, helped us pick that

1:27

word. So I,

1:29

you know, I

1:31

was at Politico from

1:33

2019 to March

1:36

31st, 2025. And

1:38

I just been watching

1:40

what's going on. on

1:43

Substack for months now,

1:46

and talking to a lot of friends

1:48

who are here, people

1:51

that have

1:53

long journalism careers, and

1:56

especially people that used to be

1:58

in the magazine world like I've

2:00

been in, Tina.

2:06

I don't want to mention all

2:08

the names, but people that

2:10

I respect and that are doing

2:12

great work on here and

2:14

started talking to some of the

2:16

folks at Substack as well

2:18

and just started... I wrote about

2:20

this yesterday, Don. I

2:23

think all of us

2:25

have... It's different for different

2:27

people, but there's a

2:29

moment watching this Trump administration

2:31

up close as a

2:33

reporter where you just have...

2:35

of like, am I

2:37

at the place that is

2:39

telling the public very,

2:41

very clearly with intellectual honesty,

2:44

what is actually going on for

2:46

real? And I

2:48

think the point for me was

2:50

doing some reporting on Paul

2:52

Weiss. And I was going

2:54

back and forth and looking

2:57

at the websites and how Paul

2:59

Weiss, the law firm, had

3:01

changed the language. of the

3:03

biographies of their top partners

3:05

and the history of the

3:07

firm and changed it all

3:09

in ways to appease the

3:11

Trump administration. And I

3:13

remember this moment just sitting there

3:15

doing this research and reporting and

3:17

just having this like... Just the

3:20

specificity of this poor woman who

3:22

had to remove from her biography

3:24

her proudest achievements in life, which

3:26

we're working for the Mueller invest

3:28

investigators in the in the Justice

3:30

Department and just memory hold that

3:32

information and it made me it

3:34

just I don't I would it

3:37

certainly terrified me. Well,

3:39

you know, that's what's happening at the

3:41

networks and what I what I call

3:43

now corporate media is that that's happening

3:45

in ways that you don't even you

3:47

kind of get lulled into it and

3:49

I'll just say I remember I won't

3:52

call any names, but I was at

3:54

a certain place and The first LGBTQ

3:56

White House press secretary was installed and

3:58

I said congratulations Such and such is

4:00

the first and the boss has called

4:02

me the first time and he wasn't

4:04

take it down and I'm like what?

4:08

take that down because they were just

4:10

nervous about what how the right might

4:12

seize upon it or MAGA and MAGA

4:15

was not even and they were trying

4:17

to you know they wanted more conservatives

4:19

to be able to come in and

4:21

I was like well that's not really

4:23

what journalism is about and there's so

4:25

much of that that goes on in

4:27

corporate media whether it's broadcast or print

4:30

or whatever where you kind of get

4:32

lulled into doing it If you

4:34

work for company A, you do it the way

4:36

company A does. If you work for company B,

4:38

you do it the way company B does it.

4:40

And now you'll get to do it the way

4:42

company RL does it, which is right, Melissa. Yeah,

4:45

it's worse than people think. It's

4:48

worse than people think because of

4:50

the context we're in right now.

4:53

And the groveling

4:56

before the Trump

4:58

administration, we're trying

5:00

to show this

5:03

idea of fake balance

5:05

and constantly trying to

5:08

prove that you don't

5:10

have any subjective opinions

5:12

about the sewer -like

5:14

quality of some of

5:17

what's being put out

5:19

there in MAGA World, that

5:22

is a pointless exercise for

5:24

journalists to engage in, even

5:26

on its own terms. you're

5:28

just going to be completely

5:31

embarrassed and disrespected by the

5:33

people in power because they're

5:35

going to realize what would

5:37

a push over you are.

5:41

But more fundamentally, you're

5:43

putting your report

5:45

in a position of

5:47

lying to your

5:49

readers and viewers by

5:51

sort of twisting

5:53

things into this view

5:55

that there's just

5:57

two parties that are

6:00

political combatants and

6:02

everything's equal on both

6:04

sides, and that

6:06

rather than identifying the

6:08

core of the crisis

6:10

in Washington right now,

6:12

which is full Republican

6:14

control with an administration

6:16

whose core mission is

6:18

weaponizing the government against

6:20

the American people or

6:22

at least against the

6:24

people Trump sees as

6:26

his enemies. And

6:28

I think it's really

6:30

important to just sort of

6:33

describe things as clearly

6:35

as you can. Maybe you'll

6:37

get it wrong sometimes

6:39

and just be intellectually honest

6:41

with your audience rather

6:43

than this bullshit

6:45

way that a lot of scared

6:47

news organizations have been covering things

6:49

this year. Well, I think you're right.

6:51

And look, folks will, you know, I'm

6:54

sure people will be like, well, you know,

6:56

you were in it and you didn't criticize

6:58

it. And it's like, well, you know, sometimes

7:00

that's fair. Yeah. For

7:03

me, I'm not saying anything about you.

7:05

I'm just saying personally, there's always fair

7:07

criticism about that. And you do always

7:10

You lose your identity to a

7:12

certain extent when you sign up

7:14

to work with certain media organizations. And

7:17

so, you know, that does go with

7:19

the territory. You cannot go

7:21

to, you know, pick your

7:23

brand of mainstream media organization,

7:25

The New York Times, The

7:27

Washington Post, Politico, where

7:30

I worked. And I'm not. And I

7:32

don't want to criticize all of

7:34

these places with any kind of blanket

7:36

statements, especially the New York Times,

7:38

which I'm a huge fan of and

7:40

I think is absolutely essential. And

7:42

I think on a regular basis does

7:44

the best journalism in the country.

7:46

So I really do make distinctions among

7:48

these places. And I think you

7:50

have to. But when you go to

7:52

work at one of these places, you

7:54

are signing up for a

7:56

lot of rules that are

8:00

required. And so I

8:02

would just say that in terms of

8:04

why didn't you... There are limits to

8:06

the style of writing you can do

8:08

at a lot of those places, which

8:11

is one the things I said yesterday. I

8:14

couldn't say certain things. I

8:16

couldn't write in a way that

8:18

I wanted to at Politico.

8:20

And that's not totally their fault.

8:23

I just know that that's not the kind of stuff they

8:25

publish. Right, right. Yeah, you just

8:27

know this doesn't, oh, this doesn't

8:29

work. It is not, it's not news

8:31

of the day. I don't

8:34

understand why we're doing it. This

8:36

is not something that we do,

8:38

right? There's this sort of unsaid

8:40

or unwritten data that you have

8:42

that you know about. Yeah,

8:44

and that's, so you sign up for that

8:46

going in. What I

8:48

think has gotten, what I

8:50

think a lot of newsrooms need to take

8:52

a hard look at right now. including Politico,

8:54

and what I wrote about yesterday, is

8:57

the gap between

8:59

what is actually going

9:01

on and how

9:03

you are reporting and

9:05

framing things. Is

9:07

it a little too wide? And

9:10

for me, it was too

9:12

wide. And a

9:14

lot of the details

9:16

are there. A lot of

9:18

the important information at

9:20

some of these places we

9:22

criticize, a lot of

9:24

the reporting is out at CNN

9:26

and these other places. But

9:29

there's some missing pieces,

9:31

and missing pieces are

9:33

really, really important. I

9:37

agree that there are missing pieces

9:39

really really important and also the way

9:41

that you frame it and how you

9:43

come at it and in the back

9:45

of your mind Are you saying okay?

9:47

This is gonna get me in trouble

9:49

with the boss or you know, they're

9:52

gonna want a little bit more Maybe

9:54

conservative thinking in there or right, you

9:56

know what I mean instead of just

9:58

telling the story I always say

10:00

I hate the false equivalency or false

10:02

equivalents pardon me Because I say some

10:04

things are just objectively bad And

10:06

because you find something that's wrong or

10:08

that's bad about the party that is

10:10

in power, it doesn't necessarily mean you

10:12

have to find something bad or wrong

10:15

about the other folks. Sometimes you're just

10:17

writing a story on something that is

10:19

just terrible and outrageous, right? Yeah,

10:21

it's 2025. I can't believe we're

10:23

still having debates about false equivalency.

10:26

Yeah, we are, though, because people

10:28

are afraid of it. We've talking

10:30

about this for decades, like everyone

10:32

knows. I'm just kidding. do change

10:34

a setting here excuse me don

10:36

yeah everyone everyone knows like that's

10:38

not a way to do journalism

10:40

anymore like i can't believe we're

10:42

still having to talk about that

10:44

yeah well because also i mean

10:47

look at the people who are

10:49

around um oh wait hang on

10:51

uh look at the people who

10:53

are around the surrounding themselves who

10:55

Donald Trump surrounds himself with, and

10:57

the people who chose to go

10:59

to his inauguration, or the people

11:01

who are donating to his inaugural

11:03

funds, or the corporate parent companies

11:06

of these media institutions or media

11:08

organizations who have been donating to

11:10

Donald Trump, sorry, and conservative causes.

11:13

Liberal causes or whatever it is that

11:15

should not trickle down to the

11:17

newsroom or to the editorial whether it's

11:19

left or right But it is

11:22

and it's doing so more now in

11:24

the Trump administration than it has

11:26

done at any other time because he

11:28

has his finger on the

11:31

scale, and he also

11:33

knows that if they have

11:35

these companies, right, because most of

11:37

these organizations are owned by

11:39

big, either telecommunications companies or big

11:41

entertainment companies, movie companies, they're

11:43

not going to be able to get

11:45

their mergers and acquisitions or whatever business they

11:47

have before the government done. He will

11:49

block it unless they kiss his ass. That's

11:53

exactly right. And I wrote

11:55

about this yesterday, and I will

11:57

repeat it despite the fact

11:59

that Politico sent me a letter

12:01

from their legal department last

12:03

night asking me to take my

12:05

entire article down, but I'm

12:08

not going to do that. And

12:10

what an episode that bothered

12:12

me. Wait, they did? Tell

12:14

me about that. I'll tell you the whole story. Well,

12:16

let me back up. Let me back up. All right. Just

12:20

yesterday when I launched

12:23

TELUS, T -E -L -O -S, TELUS

12:25

.NEWS, if you want to

12:27

go to the main URL.

12:29

T -E -L -O -S .NEWS. I

12:32

wrote an article

12:34

introducing TELUS, explaining what

12:37

it is. And

12:39

I mentioned Politico a few times. And

12:42

one context in which

12:44

I mentioned them was

12:46

that I was disappointed.

12:49

that after Donald

12:51

Trump made up

12:53

a absurd lie

12:55

about Politico, saying

12:57

that the government was spending,

12:59

it was basically sending

13:01

millions of dollars to Politico,

13:04

that a doge had

13:06

uncovered this, when in fact

13:08

what actually was happening, government

13:11

agencies were subscribing

13:13

to Politico's very

13:16

excellent new service

13:18

called Politico Pro, the subscription service.

13:20

So the government was spending some

13:22

money on some political subscriptions,

13:24

and a bunch of absurd right -wingers

13:26

turned it into a conspiracy theory

13:28

about Politico being funded by

13:30

the government, and then Trump decided

13:33

personally to weigh in on that

13:35

conspiracy theory. And

13:37

that sucked. It sucked for the leadership

13:39

of Politico. I'd have to deal with that

13:41

to be attacked. The question

13:43

is, how do you respond? I

13:46

was very disappointed that

13:48

the way that they responded

13:50

to smooth things over

13:52

was to send our White

13:54

House correspondent to CPAC.

13:56

and accept an invitation to

13:58

do an on -stage interview

14:00

at CPAC, which is

14:02

a sewer of media bashing

14:04

and wrightling, fear -mongering, and

14:06

that this year included

14:08

some activists who were organizing

14:10

to have Trump serve

14:13

a third term. So I

14:15

don't think there's anything

14:17

wrong with covering CPAC, obviously.

14:19

CPAC is essential. If

14:21

you want to cover politics,

14:23

you have to cover

14:25

it. I don't

14:27

think you want to associate yourself with

14:29

their brand in that way. Anyway, I

14:31

wrote about that yesterday. Politico

14:33

didn't like it. They didn't like a

14:35

couple of other lines in my article where

14:37

I mentioned them. And

14:39

so last night, Don, I

14:42

get a couple of phone calls

14:44

from a phone number I'd never seen

14:46

before. And then

14:48

I got two voice messages. So

14:50

something someone was urgently trying to get

14:52

in touch with me They left

14:54

kind of a garbled phone message that

14:56

got cut off in the beginning

14:58

but at the end of the message

15:00

it said it mentioned something about

15:02

a violation and That I needed to

15:04

take it down immediately And I

15:06

thought take what down what violation and

15:08

they said they'd be following up

15:10

in writing 20 minutes later I got

15:12

a letter from the top lawyer

15:14

at Politico demanding that I delete

15:17

an 1800 word article

15:19

that I wrote at Telus

15:21

yesterday that was about

15:23

the way that the media

15:25

has covered Trump. I

15:27

read it. I thought it

15:30

was very good. So

15:32

that article Politico is demanding

15:34

that I delete under

15:36

threat of an implied threat

15:38

of legal action because

15:40

they say that it you

15:43

know, violated some boilerplate

15:45

language in my contract about

15:47

non, you know, non

15:49

disparagement. If you read it

15:51

carefully, it doesn't disparage

15:53

Politico, but that's neither here

15:56

nor there. What bothers

15:58

me is that a

16:00

media company that professes to

16:02

champion the First Amendment

16:04

above all else would... Actually

16:06

send a letter to

16:08

a journalist asking them not

16:10

to just maybe could

16:12

you change the language on

16:14

one or two things?

16:17

We disagree with it or

16:19

or let us respond,

16:21

right? That's that's normal. That's

16:23

normal to ask for

16:25

a correction or ask for

16:27

a response but to

16:29

literally demand that I delete

16:31

the entire 1800 word

16:33

article that is mostly a

16:35

criticism of Donald Trump

16:37

Wow Wow A

16:40

little while ago, I wrote a

16:42

follow -up laying all of this out. And

16:45

here's the thing you'll really like, Don,

16:47

because this is where it gets a little

16:49

awkward. I'm scheduled to go to the

16:51

White House Correspondent with Politico on Saturday night

16:53

as their guest. Are you going? So

16:56

here's my view of

16:58

this. I think that

17:00

cooler heads will prevail.

17:02

that sometimes the business side

17:04

and lawyers at these

17:06

big corporations, they get a

17:09

little too eager and they

17:11

start sending letters. And

17:13

they do things that violate the news

17:15

values of the place. And

17:17

they do some things that

17:19

I know would be appalling

17:21

to a lot of journalists

17:23

at Politico sending such a

17:25

letter. And I am

17:28

hopeful that The

17:30

editorial leadership is going

17:32

to realize this was

17:34

a big mistake and

17:37

apologize, retract

17:39

that demand, and

17:41

smooth things over. But

17:43

I don't know yet. The answer is I don't

17:45

know. I don't think that's going to

17:47

happen. You don't think so why

17:50

not? I know I don't think it's gonna

17:52

happen because I think that I mean I

17:54

think they would have run it by obviously

17:56

the editorial saw it They must have sent

17:58

it to the lawyers the lawyers wouldn't be

18:00

reading that so someone an editorial side Saw

18:02

it and sentence it. Oh my god. I

18:04

can't believe he's doing that and I why

18:06

would you even want to go there with

18:09

them Ryan? I wouldn't Well, that's you know,

18:11

that's that's that's that's a that's a good

18:13

point That's a good point. That's a good

18:15

point. Substack has an event Saturday night that

18:17

looks like a lot of fun. So,

18:20

you know, there are other options. But

18:23

I just think it would be

18:25

better for all parties if, you

18:28

know, I like Politico. I

18:31

want them to succeed. I want

18:33

them to be the best version

18:35

of themselves. And I

18:37

don't want that. But you don't work for

18:39

them anymore. No, I don't work

18:41

for them, but like, you know, I'm

18:43

not I think they're an important institution in

18:45

Washington, you know, they they have a

18:47

few hundred journalists and I walked in and

18:49

called me and asked me to go

18:52

to the White House Correspondents Dinner I'd still

18:54

while I still want them to succeed

18:56

and I'm rooting for my former colleagues No,

18:59

I'd be like obviously you sent

19:01

this to me by mistake

19:03

and the back story there I

19:05

asked, you know I wanted

19:07

to support Eugene Daniels, who's an

19:09

old friend of mine. And

19:12

he's the president of the White House

19:14

Correspondents Association. And so,

19:16

you know, I wanted to be there to

19:18

support him. And so that's, you know,

19:21

that's why they Oh, yeah, you guys are

19:23

friends. You invited me to something for

19:25

his wedding or something. I forget it was

19:27

something that would happen. Maybe his engagement

19:29

party that time. An engagement party. Yeah, yeah.

19:32

And I corresponded with Eugene and

19:34

then... sent him a text recently.

19:36

I have not heard back from

19:38

him, which was odd, but... You

19:40

know, he's been a little AWOL

19:42

with me, too. I think he's,

19:44

like, just absolutely, you know, just

19:46

really, really busy with preparing for

19:49

next weekend. There's a lot of

19:51

pressure, so... What do you think

19:53

of his decision with Amber Ruffin? I

19:57

was disappointed. Here comes

19:59

the cocaine or whatever you

20:01

called it. I was,

20:03

Don. I was disappointed by

20:06

it. I wrote about

20:08

this yesterday and my view

20:10

on this is when

20:12

you sign up a comedian

20:14

to roast the president

20:16

at that dinner, you're

20:18

getting the whole

20:20

hog. You

20:23

have to be

20:25

absolutely um, falls to the

20:27

wall in defense of the first amendment,

20:29

no matter what that person says. Okay.

20:31

You don't have to, uh, you don't

20:33

have to associate yourself with the comments.

20:35

You can go, you can criticize them

20:37

and say, we wouldn't say that. Uh,

20:40

this was a dumb joke, but you

20:42

don't fire them. The whole dinner is

20:44

about the first amendment. The

20:46

whole dinner is about defending that value.

20:48

And I know it sucks to be

20:50

in the position that Eugene and the

20:52

board were in, um, when You've

20:54

got someone going rogue and saying things like

20:56

that. But at the end of the

20:58

day, you don't control that person. You don't

21:00

control their speech. And you

21:02

hired them to roast the president

21:05

at a dinner that celebrates the

21:07

First Amendment. You can say

21:09

all that, make it clear, and

21:11

people will understand. You

21:13

have that face like, you don't agree

21:16

with this. No, I'm listening. No, I do

21:18

agree with it. I'm just listening. I

21:20

think that... they get to choose whatever the

21:22

comedian is that they want. I was

21:24

surprised because the whole point of it is

21:26

to roast and to have a thick

21:28

skin. I'm sure you've been roasted at that

21:30

dinner. I know that I had been

21:32

roasted at that dinner. Now,

21:35

never personally been

21:37

roasted, fortunately. Oh,

21:39

I flipped off the comedian in

21:41

the room. So to

21:43

me, it kind of is what

21:45

it is. But I just think

21:48

it's another example. of someone

21:50

sort of people sort of

21:52

bending the knee to Donald Trump.

21:56

100%. That's why I was disappointed. That

21:58

was really disappointing to me. Eugene is one

22:00

of my best friends. I

22:02

love him, and I'm sure

22:05

it was a very, very difficult

22:07

decision. But yeah,

22:09

I agree. It was the wrong

22:11

way to go on this.

22:13

Yeah, and I have not been

22:15

critical of him at all.

22:17

I haven't really spoken about that,

22:19

but I did a... I

22:21

did a show with Larry Whitmore.

22:23

Is that right? Yeah, they're

22:25

right. And

22:28

so, no, what's his

22:30

name? Anyways, anyways, see,

22:32

that's the senior. I'm, you know, I'm not as

22:34

sharp as I used to be. And

22:37

he, you know, we talked about

22:39

that and he said they could

22:42

have gotten a conservative comedian. Yeah,

22:44

right. Dr. Richard Replacer, yeah. No, they could

22:47

have gotten one in the beginning if that's

22:49

what they wanted. They could have just said,

22:51

well, why don't we get a conservative comedian

22:53

or whatever, and it'll be fine. And then

22:55

Trump would be like, OK with it, I

22:57

think. Larry Wilmore, that's it. They

22:59

would have been fine with it. Thank you, my

23:01

producer is like weighing in on text on

23:03

that. He's not even

23:05

there. So that's how you know you have a good

23:07

producer. And so yeah,

23:09

that part, I'm not happy

23:12

with how they did it. I'm

23:14

not happy with people who are just

23:16

sort of acquiescing even in advance,

23:18

even now. I think that we're supposed

23:20

to hold truth to power, right? Without

23:23

fear of favor and now

23:25

we're doing it and people are

23:27

favoring the Trump administration and

23:29

they are in fear of the

23:31

Trump administration and that's that

23:34

shouldn't be how we operate I

23:36

agree 100 % and there's this

23:38

there's there's look the Trump

23:40

administration doesn't play they're not intellectually

23:42

honest they don't play by

23:44

But by the same rules One

23:46

of my favorite podcasters Sam

23:48

Harris, you know, he his line

23:50

about this is you know

23:53

there's no net they're playing tennis

23:55

without a net right and

23:57

then as but as soon as

23:59

the other side or what

24:01

they see as an enemy does

24:03

anything they hold us to

24:05

the highest standards possible so it

24:07

would have been absolutely trivial

24:09

for a conservative comedian to make

24:12

a similar joke about Joe

24:14

Biden and you obviously would not

24:16

have heard a peep of

24:18

criticism by anyone on the right

24:20

and you would have heard

24:22

hows of protest if that comedian

24:24

were somehow, you know, fired

24:26

from an event because they're not

24:28

playing with a net. They

24:31

don't care about those rules. But

24:33

they will not think

24:35

twice about holding other people

24:37

up to the standards

24:39

that they don't. has to

24:41

live by. And that's

24:43

exactly what went on with

24:46

this comedian. You had

24:48

a bunch of White House

24:50

flunkies. going out there

24:52

and dashing the media because

24:54

of this comedians joke and

24:56

demanding that everyone boycott the

24:58

event. And that put pressure,

25:00

I'm quite sure, on all

25:02

the parent companies of the

25:04

membership of the White House

25:07

Correspondents Association. And everyone

25:09

freaked out. And

25:11

she had to be the sacrificial, excuse

25:13

me, the sacrificial lamb to this bad faith

25:15

argument that came from the White House.

25:17

So I would have just said, you know

25:19

what? I'm standing by. I

25:22

think people would have more respect for it.

25:24

If you just said, I'm standing by what

25:26

I, you know, what this is about, supposed

25:28

to be about. But look, I

25:30

don't know what he's dealing with behind the

25:32

scenes. I don't know if he's trying to protect

25:34

a position at a network. I don't know.

25:36

I had no idea what it is. It's

25:39

not just him. It's the whole board.

25:41

The whole board voted unanimously for that.

25:43

So it's not just the whole board

25:45

voted unanimously. Who was on

25:47

the board? You know,

25:49

it's funny. I don't I couldn't

25:51

tell you right now like All

25:53

the names, but it's probably I

25:56

don't know. I don't want to

25:58

get it wrong, but it's probably

26:00

8 to 12 people But it

26:02

was it was the release they

26:04

put out said it was unanimous

26:06

decision Yeah, so Wow Wow Wow,

26:09

are they all afraid of they

26:11

do they really think by her

26:13

being a comedian say I think

26:15

what what does she say like Um

26:19

the other something about the left

26:21

like Because they're at they're literally killing

26:23

people or something. She said right?

26:25

Well, she said it goes back to

26:27

our previous conversation here because it

26:29

was yeah, it was her and Samantha

26:31

be talking about false equivalents and

26:33

talking about both sides is him and

26:35

You know, she made a joke

26:37

about like I'm not I don't want

26:39

to get wrong but she said

26:41

something like I don't I'm not accusing

26:43

anyone of killing people, you know,

26:45

but then But I think the gist

26:47

of it was she was joking

26:49

that, yes, the Trump administration is killing

26:51

people. So

26:53

they fired her. I

26:57

mean, you know, their

26:59

policies, by getting rid

27:01

of USAID, you could say that

27:03

possibly. That was her

27:05

point, John. I think that was her point. The

27:10

logical conclusion of this decision

27:13

and this decision and this

27:15

decision is that people will

27:17

die. I don't think it's

27:19

very controversial to say that

27:21

killing the PEPFAR program that

27:23

provides medications for HIV patients

27:25

in places like Africa and

27:27

other places, I don't think

27:30

it's too much to say

27:32

that people are going to

27:34

die because that program no

27:36

longer exists. So I think

27:38

that was her point. Now I'm going to

27:40

get going to be allowed to go to

27:42

the White House Correspondent there. I don't think

27:44

they're going to invite you. No,

27:47

I don't think that political is going to

27:49

invite you. I think they're going to just

27:51

say either your name when you show up.

27:53

It won't be there. You better check before

27:55

they're going to rescind their offer. And I

27:57

don't think you should. Why do you want

27:59

to go? I don't understand it. Like I

28:01

don't. That's you. But I told you I

28:03

was sure I wanted to I want us,

28:05

you know, it's Eugene's big night. He's a

28:08

good friend and I've always You know, I've

28:10

been talking about You know this event with

28:12

him for quite a long time and so

28:14

that's that's part of the main reason But

28:16

I don't know you're making a good you're

28:18

making a good case that I should bail

28:20

Yeah, but also I mean it look if

28:22

they invite you go I don't think they're

28:24

going to that's just me. Let me know

28:26

text me call me Let me know but

28:28

I'm surprised at the whole Look, this is

28:30

going to sound bizarre. I'm

28:32

surprised that the White House

28:34

correspondents still take themselves

28:37

that seriously. They have important jobs

28:39

to do. Not the correspondents, but I mean the

28:41

board. They still have important jobs to

28:43

do. But we see from

28:45

what happens in the briefing room

28:47

to the no news comes from

28:49

there. Very rarely does

28:51

news come from, if at all,

28:53

from the briefing room. It

28:55

comes from very diligent White House

28:58

reporters or... investigative reporters doing

29:00

the work behind the scenes. What

29:02

happens in that briefing room is a

29:04

show that the Trump administration puts on every

29:06

day and Caroline Levitt tries to be

29:09

I guess as rude and as dismissive of

29:11

the people in that room as possible

29:13

and then every once in a while you

29:15

get into a fight and then that

29:17

becomes another distraction that the news ends up

29:19

covering rather than what is really going

29:21

on. I don't and and

29:23

then they don't defend each other. They

29:25

don't like they don't have each other's

29:27

backs when she's rude to someone or

29:30

She cuts someone off the next person

29:32

doesn't ask the same question or

29:34

they don't all walk out Yeah, like

29:36

when the AP when they kick the

29:38

AP out these everyone should just leave

29:40

the room You know and it's broken.

29:42

You're absolutely right. You're bro. It's broken

29:44

and Trump, you know has helped move

29:47

it move it along I love two

29:49

minds about this because you know On

29:51

the one hand, I

29:53

believe that these institutions matter,

29:55

Don. And I believe

29:57

they're good. And

29:59

you know, it's almost like

30:02

I don't want to, you're

30:04

probably right that it's past

30:06

its expiration date and it's

30:08

irretrievably broken. But I sort

30:10

of, I don't want

30:12

to believe that because it would

30:14

be another thing that Trump broke. And

30:17

I do think that you

30:19

know, we want to get

30:21

back to a place where

30:23

the relationship between the White

30:25

House Correspondents Association and an

30:27

incoming or a new administration

30:29

is normalized. It's never, it's

30:31

never like perfect. I mean,

30:33

like, you know, there are

30:35

little things that like the

30:37

Obama administration did, the Bush

30:39

administration. I

30:42

remember I got kicked off a plane once. I

30:44

got kicked off a campaign plane by the Obama people

30:46

because they didn't like a piece. You

30:48

know, so there's always been like

30:50

little, you know, little stuff like that.

30:53

But that institution,

30:56

I hope it survives, Don,

30:58

because it would just

31:00

be another sign of the

31:02

erosion of the important

31:04

institutions in Washington that were

31:06

kind of like the...

31:09

Don't like the tendons that

31:11

keep the, you know,

31:13

keep some democracy together, you

31:15

know, and it's just

31:17

like he's whipping out or

31:19

the wiring. He's just

31:21

whipping out all the wiring.

31:23

And it's like another

31:26

circuit, another piece of wiring

31:28

that helped keep things

31:30

that kept our democratic institutions

31:32

kind of connected that

31:34

he's just trashing. Well,

31:36

yes, but I think that in order

31:38

to do it, you have to stand

31:40

up in order to have those those

31:42

institutions and those norms in order to

31:44

keep them you have to do something

31:46

I believe dramatic and drastic in the

31:48

moment doesn't mean that it'll go away

31:50

but that White House press briefing is

31:52

a way for them to spend spend

31:54

the news in their favor and if

31:56

that didn't exist they couldn't spin and

31:58

what would be happening is that the

32:00

real reporting going on behind the scenes

32:02

would be the thing that is would

32:04

be taking precedent and priority. Let me

32:06

just read something to you because it

32:08

goes into the conversation that we're having.

32:10

I'm not sure if you knew about

32:12

this. Top producer of

32:14

60 minutes quits saying he lost

32:17

independence. The news program has

32:19

faced mounting pressure from both President

32:21

Trump and his corporate ownership

32:23

at Paramount, the parent company of

32:25

CBS News. CBS News. Entered

32:28

a new period of turmoil on

32:30

Tuesday after the executive producer of 60

32:32

Minutes, Bill Owens said that he

32:34

would resign from the long -running Sunday

32:36

news program because he had lost his

32:38

journalistic independence. In an extraordinary declaration,

32:40

Mr. Owens, only the third person to

32:43

run the program in its 57 -year

32:45

history, told his staff in a

32:47

memo that over the past months, it

32:49

has become clear that I would

32:51

not be allowed to run the show

32:53

as I have always run it

32:55

to make independent decisions. based on what

32:57

was right for 60 minutes, right

33:00

for the audience. Wow.

33:02

So I hadn't heard that. Is that kind

33:04

of hot off the presses or something? That's

33:06

hot off the presses. This is according to

33:08

the New York Times is reporting this and

33:10

there's a memo and they're quoting from it.

33:12

So he said, having defended this show and

33:14

what we stand for from every angle over

33:17

time with everything I could, I am stepping

33:19

aside so the show can move forward. He

33:21

wrote in the memo, which was obtained by

33:23

the New York Times. Look,

33:26

I mean... That tells

33:28

you everything. That tells you

33:30

everything, Ryan. And

33:32

you know this from being in the broadcast

33:34

world. You know, 60

33:36

Minutes holds itself up as the

33:38

people who work there, like their

33:40

independence from corporate interference is sacrosanct,

33:43

right? I mean, correct me if

33:45

I'm wrong that that show has

33:47

a reputation above almost all others

33:49

when it comes to that. It

33:51

does. And so someone who's been there

33:53

as long as he has, would

33:56

be particularly sensitive to the

33:58

clamping down by the parent

34:00

company. I assumed on that

34:02

some of this has to

34:04

do with the potential legal

34:06

settlement that everyone has been

34:08

holding their breath waiting to

34:10

see if CBS enters into

34:12

over the fake lawsuit that

34:14

Trump filed. Well, this is

34:16

why. I think that he

34:18

was being pressured to change

34:20

things and they're being pressured

34:22

to settle, I'm sure, so

34:24

that this Paramount merger with,

34:27

what is it, Ellison? Or

34:29

is it Redbird or whatever

34:31

it is? Yeah. Don't

34:34

rely on me for

34:36

the details of that, but

34:38

it's something that has

34:41

some federal government sign -off

34:43

required and is making CBS

34:45

News's corporate overlords very

34:47

nervous and very eager to

34:49

be chummier with the

34:51

Trump administration. And

34:54

they saw CBS

34:56

embarrassingly cave when

34:58

Trump filed a

35:00

ridiculous, frivolous lawsuit.

35:02

against George Stephanopoulos

35:04

and That was ABC, yeah. ...hoffed

35:07

up $15 million, which

35:10

it was, I'm sure,

35:12

so CBS looked at that

35:14

and said, huh, maybe

35:16

that's a path out of

35:18

this. And there

35:20

was a huge blowback after the

35:22

ABC thing that I think

35:24

has held off CBS for making

35:26

the same mistake. But

35:29

so this seems like the next, the

35:31

next shoe that has dropped. It's

35:34

really, I think corporate media,

35:36

I mean, look, everyone has

35:38

been predicting the demise of,

35:40

you know, broadcast and cable

35:42

media. I don't think it's

35:44

over, but I think this

35:46

puts another nail in the

35:48

coffin, not the final, but

35:50

another. That's how I feel. And

35:52

right, someone, Jane Burns is in the comments.

35:54

And by the way, whoever it was in the

35:56

comments, someone in the comments tipped me off

35:58

saying that CBS top producer there. But Jane Burns,

36:00

thank you. Take a lesson from Harper. I

36:02

think everyone should do that. Kiera Stroop is saying,

36:04

do not obey in advance. Another

36:07

nail agreed, says agent number

36:09

99. Caroline Schneider agreed. And

36:11

for those of you, that's what I

36:13

was saying to you. That's why it was

36:15

so important, I think, for the White House

36:17

Correspondents Association to stand up to Donald Trump

36:19

and say, this is our decision. Like the

36:21

AAP said, it is our decision to say

36:23

the Gulf of Mexico and not the Gulf

36:25

of America. And so I feel the White

36:27

House Correspondents do that. I thought, I

36:30

don't know what's going on with CBS,

36:32

man. But wow, I mean, one day

36:34

they're going to space and then the

36:36

next day their top program producer is

36:38

resigning. Woo! No,

36:40

it's really bad. And it's why... know,

36:42

I had to make a decision last

36:44

night, Don. I got this letter. And

36:47

like, you know, it's a little scary when

36:50

you get a legal demand. And

36:52

I just decided there's

36:54

no way in the world

36:56

I'm going to delete

36:58

an entire article from the

37:00

internet and that it

37:02

is embarrassing for a news

37:04

organization to ask a

37:07

journalist to do that. And

37:10

so this is like, all of

37:12

us, I'm not trying

37:14

to be some martyr here,

37:17

but all of us, and

37:19

especially those of us who

37:21

were in corporate media very

37:23

recently, we're under an

37:25

enormous amount of pressure. And

37:27

look what happened. Columbia

37:29

caved, but then Harvard stood

37:31

up, right? Paul

37:33

Weiss and the other law firms

37:35

caved and then Jenner was

37:37

a Jenner Brock or whatever it

37:39

is and and a few

37:41

a few others they held firm

37:43

they sued and It serves

37:45

as a model for for other

37:47

people other institutions that you

37:49

don't pre -obey and that you

37:52

can Push back And I think

37:54

we're kind of at a

37:56

turning point this spring with all

37:58

of this, you know where

38:00

there's you know civil society is

38:02

there's a little bit more of a sense

38:04

of solidarity. People are

38:06

seeing what these other law

38:08

firms and what institutions like

38:11

Harvard and what journalists who

38:13

aren't bending the knee. And

38:15

I think people start mirroring that

38:17

behavior because they realize, oh, no, you

38:19

don't have to do that. You don't

38:21

have to do it. You give Donald

38:24

Trump $15 million like ABC did. You

38:26

don't have to go to the

38:28

adagoration and suck up to him. like,

38:30

you know, Bezos and Tim Cook

38:33

and the other tech oligarchs. Well, those

38:35

are the people who are doing

38:37

it publicly. There are many others who

38:39

are doing it privately or behind

38:41

the scenes. Trust me. I've been up

38:43

close. I've witnessed it up close

38:45

and personal, personal interactions where I'm like,

38:47

wow, look at this shit. 100%.

38:50

Ryan, you're the

38:52

best man. Tell

38:54

folks where we can find

38:56

you and what are you going

38:59

to do here on Substack?

39:01

Tell us. News. Look, the mission

39:03

statement is that what we're

39:05

witnessing in Washington is a crisis.

39:09

The core fact you need to understand

39:11

about the Trump administration is that

39:13

it is weaponizing the state against the

39:15

American people. That's what it's

39:17

doing. And that is the story

39:19

in Washington and everything else takes a

39:21

backseat to that. I've been covering

39:24

politics for almost 30 years. I'm sure

39:26

at some point I'll get back

39:28

to writing about campaigns and polling and,

39:30

you know, primaries and all that

39:32

important stuff. But right now, what

39:35

the Trump administration is

39:37

doing by seizing the

39:39

levers of the government

39:41

and weaponizing against universities,

39:43

law firms, journalists, immigrants,

39:47

the whole list, that is the

39:50

story. And we're going to

39:52

be the place for investigative reporting,

39:54

news, analysis, and commentary about

39:56

that. We have a big investigative

39:58

piece coming up next Tuesday,

40:00

a 9000 word piece I've been

40:02

working on for a while. So

40:05

please check us out and

40:07

subscribe. Wow,

40:09

look at that great combo. Christie

40:11

Sharp says Carol Schneider says

40:13

this show was very informative. Thank

40:15

you So um Ryan, let's

40:17

get together and do something weekly

40:19

or on a consistent basis

40:21

I would love that on people

40:23

I'm going to get a

40:25

cool background like you. I'll

40:27

get my stove set up a little

40:29

nicer. This is all

40:31

new. I just did this before I was

40:33

in my dining room. You're fine. Nobody cares about

40:35

that anymore. Don't you listen. That's true. Nobody

40:39

cares. Your background is great. The

40:41

only thing that I would tell

40:44

you is, want me to tell you

40:46

how to fix it? Absolutely. Just

40:49

put a little sunshade over your windows

40:51

to take away the brightness You'll be

40:53

still be able to see the view,

40:55

but it'll just help you know, I

40:57

anyone cares about that view anyway Even

40:59

out the lighting a little bit. Yeah,

41:01

if you have like a Roman shade

41:03

That's just you know the one that

41:05

that you just put down This is

41:07

a classy place down there. I have

41:09

a shade on that window. It is

41:11

it's a great place So

41:15

all right, next time I'll put the

41:17

shade down. Let's do this anytime you want.

41:19

I really appreciate it. Your viewers should

41:21

know that we've been doing TV together for

41:24

a long, long time and our old,

41:26

old pal. So I love seeing you and

41:28

I'll come back anytime. I'm

41:30

always rooting for you. I'm always in

41:32

your corner and you know that. So welcome

41:34

to Subsack and congratulations on Telus. And

41:36

we look forward to seeing more of Ryan,

41:38

Lizza and spending more time with them.

41:40

Thank you, my friend. Okay.

41:42

Bye, everyone. I'm going to

41:45

see you coming up. Olivia

41:47

Troy. I have a live with Olivia Troy.

41:49

Oh, nice. She's the best. And she knows what's

41:51

going on in Washington. I was just on

41:53

the at the town hall with her and Jim

41:55

and Michael Cohen. I saw that. That looks

41:57

great. You guys were so good. Yeah. Okay.

42:00

I'll see you later. Take care. Talk

42:02

to you later. Bye. Bye, Bye everyone. Thanks

42:04

everyone for watching. Your support means the

42:06

world to us. So make sure you hit

42:08

the like button and you subscribe to

42:10

our channel to make sure that you never

42:13

ever miss a video. We're live every

42:15

day, 10 a .m. Eastern time. We drop

42:17

even more content at 2 p .m. Eastern

42:19

and 5 p .m. Eastern. And if you

42:21

want more Don Lemon Show content, we'd love

42:23

for you to become a member of

42:25

the Lemon Community where you will receive access

42:27

to special community posts. You'll get exclusive

42:30

content and members only live shows. So

42:32

head over to our channel page

42:34

or click the join button on this

42:36

video. Again, thank you for watching.

42:38

We appreciate your love and your support

42:40

and we will see you next time.