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fees extra. See full terms at

1:02

MintMobile.com. Welcome to the econ crew

1:04

podcast. Podcast that for nearly 10

1:07

years has been devoted to helping

1:09

you to develop, launch, and sell

1:11

better due to see products for

1:13

Amazon and beyond. Hey

1:16

Amurik, welcome to the ecom crew podcast.

1:18

Hey Mike, how are you? I'm good

1:20

man, like I've known you for something like

1:22

15 years now and somehow I thought

1:25

that you've been on the podcast before

1:27

but we were at dinner the other

1:29

night, you're like no, never been on

1:31

the podcast, you're a horrible friend, you

1:33

never invited me to come do this,

1:36

so I felt bad and here we

1:38

are. That's funny, yeah, it's been a

1:40

while since we've known each other for

1:42

sure. I mean, you just follow me around like

1:44

a sad puppy dog and do everything I do.

1:46

You were doing poker, like when I was doing

1:49

poker, then I got an e-commerce, like, oh, I

1:51

got, I go do e-commerce. Now you're off doing

1:53

something else, we'll talk about it a little bit,

1:55

but it seems like we were on the same

1:58

path for quite a while. Yeah, definitely. Definitely. doing

2:00

the same things. You know, it's

2:02

a small world. So I always

2:04

like to just kind of do things

2:06

chronologically. Like what got you into

2:08

e -commerce back in, what was it?

2:10

2015, maybe 16? yeah, 15. So I

2:12

was working as a web designer

2:15

at law school here in Vegas. I've

2:17

been a web designer at a

2:19

time for 10 years, right? Like my

2:21

whole career was web design. Went

2:23

to school for web design and then

2:25

worked in Paris in an e -commerce

2:27

company, actually. But not doing e -commerce

2:29

at all. Just doing web design

2:32

and UX, like user experience. And

2:34

then I moved to the US

2:37

in 2011, find myself a

2:39

job, you know. And then came

2:41

across a course online, like someone selling,

2:43

hey, you can sell your stuff on

2:45

Amazon. And I'm like, what are you talking

2:47

about? Amazon is a website where you

2:49

buy stuff. Right, right. Well, someone's going

2:51

to sell it. Yeah, like it's weird. Like

2:53

for me, it's Amazon selling it. It's

2:55

like, you know, at the time, it's like

2:58

Walmart or Target or whatever, it's like

3:00

a retailer. And so I

3:02

got super interested into it. It

3:04

was the grill brush, Chris Guthrie, right?

3:07

Which I believe now works with Quietlight,

3:09

I think. Yeah, interesting. You know what's

3:11

funny? I have to tell you a story

3:13

about a grill brush. Yeah. We

3:17

were in

3:19

China for the first time. And

3:21

it was Michelle

3:23

and me

3:26

and Dave Bryant. And I

3:28

think Ian sells from now

3:30

MDS. And we were like

3:32

in this condo in Hong

3:34

Kong, in between Canton

3:36

Fairfaces. And had this like

3:39

hair -brain idea of like, let's see if

3:41

we can spin up a product like right

3:43

now and just see what happens with

3:45

like Facebook ads to a landing page and

3:47

just sell something. And it was a

3:49

grill brush. It's what we did. I swear

3:51

to God. It just, it brought back

3:53

a weird memory as you said that. And

3:55

it seems like everybody was either trying

3:57

to sell like garlic press or a grill

3:59

brush. That was the thing. And it was the

4:02

thing. And the thing that's crazy, it worked. That's

4:04

the thing that's nuts is it worked. Like

4:06

we didn't end up going to sell grill

4:08

brushes. We ended up going and

4:10

got a different product, but we were

4:12

just trying to prove a concept of like, can

4:14

this even work? Like, you know, this is

4:16

like going back to 2016. And I don't remember

4:19

exactly, you know, what we came across

4:21

on that trip and started talking about. But,

4:23

you know, Facebook ads was kind of like

4:25

the thing, like the thing at. Can this

4:27

work? And we just, you know, spent like

4:29

100 bucks, sold three or four grill brushes?

4:32

And we're like, holy crap. You know, we

4:34

want to get some dumplings, came back, like

4:36

sold some grill brushes that we didn't even

4:38

have. It was like a, you know, temporary

4:40

landing page. It didn't even really have the

4:42

product. We had to cancel the orders, but

4:44

it's so funny that you, that you were

4:46

talking about, you got into this because of

4:48

grill brushes or saw Chris's grill brush's grill

4:50

brush course. Yeah, it was wild at

4:52

the time like like you said like

4:54

the Facebook ads even Amazon at the

4:57

time was Was crazy you can take

4:59

whatever if you had Some notion of

5:01

marketing some notion of customer service and

5:03

you put something on there you rent

5:06

some ads and it worked. It's like

5:08

you just put your logo on whatever

5:10

Nobody knew what they were doing and

5:12

so you could really put something on

5:14

there and make it work. Listen. Yeah

5:17

So I did a bunch of stuff,

5:19

I was trying out a bunch of

5:21

stuff because it was all new for

5:23

me and so it was so exciting,

5:26

right? Like the entrepreneur, Shiny Object Standard,

5:28

which I still have today, you know

5:30

that. Yeah, we talk about that all

5:32

the time. We could do a whole

5:35

episode just about this. 100% we can

5:37

do 10 episodes. So I did drop

5:39

shipping at that time, around that time.

5:41

It was 2017, maybe, 2015, 2017

5:44

I think. And I was selling... like

5:46

some kind of fishing accessory

5:48

or whatever, ended up in one

5:51

month, it was November, one

5:53

month selling $450,000 worth

5:55

of fishing hook, the biggest

5:57

day was spending 20 grand.

5:59

on ads on one day. Awesome.

6:01

It's crazy. Like, you know, I'm

6:04

seeing like stuff that at that

6:06

time was just like blowing up

6:08

and then people will pay anything

6:10

to catch that bass, man. You

6:12

gotta, you know, you gotta, you

6:14

gotta, you gotta, you gotta, you

6:17

gotta, you gotta, you gotta, you

6:19

gotta try this new fangled fishing

6:21

hook. It gets, it gets, it

6:23

gets the bass or the salmon

6:25

or the, it's like, someone who's

6:27

into that hobby or that niche.

6:29

they can see something, a Facebook getting quickly, be

6:32

like, oh my God, I got, you know,

6:34

for $25, for $30 or $50 or whatever,

6:36

I gotta try it. You know, they already

6:38

have a whole tackle box full of these,

6:40

you know, fishing hooks or lures or whatever,

6:42

but this is the one, this is

6:44

the golf product that's gonna make me

6:46

shoot stronger and narrower. This is the

6:48

gun holster that's gonna help me, you

6:51

know, go shoot that deer better or

6:53

whatever, or whatever it might be, like,

6:55

like, like, like, like, like, like, that

6:57

like really kind of snap and get

6:59

you like coloring was our thing right

7:01

we have the coloring book products

7:03

and for people that were into that we

7:05

had the perfect product at you know the

7:08

right place at the right time you know

7:10

it was just a better mousetrap for 30

7:12

bucks I'll give it a try and it

7:14

aligns with a hobby and I love that and

7:16

so yeah I mean it was for you again

7:19

I guess perfect timing November you know

7:21

it's right around the Christmas season it's

7:23

so it's not only probably people buying

7:25

it for themselves or their buddies is

7:28

a gift but like wise buying it

7:30

for their husbands and stuff as well

7:32

and it's just that right price point

7:34

and wow yeah it's cool so what

7:36

happened with that I mean like obviously

7:39

I actually even know about the fishing

7:41

hooks or something by December January

7:43

things must have changed. No right in

7:45

November actually at the end of November

7:47

early December what happened is like I

7:49

was working I hired a friend to

7:51

work with me and He was running

7:54

the ads and the creatives and

7:56

at some point got wanted

7:58

to take a shortcut. and just

8:00

copied and add a copyright. And

8:02

so just copied that and launched

8:04

it with that. So copyright strike

8:06

right away, which is normal, you

8:09

know, like I'm not complaining. And

8:11

so after that, it was the

8:13

death of the at account. Like

8:15

you got one strike, Facebook is

8:17

like, uh-uh, bad at account, you

8:19

were not gonna send you any

8:21

traffic, you're dead. And so after

8:23

that, he was like. yeah really

8:25

hard to get back on and

8:27

we had to abandon the project

8:29

but it's funny like you say

8:31

we got lucky because this is kind

8:33

of like that it's like you it

8:35

happens like that you try something and

8:37

then you get lucky and then you're

8:39

successful in a way and you're like

8:41

oh I'm on top of the world, like

8:43

I can't do anything, anything I touch

8:45

turns into gold. And then you're like,

8:47

no, you just got lucky and followed

8:49

a few steps and then something happens

8:51

that you don't know what went wrong

8:53

because you don't know what you're doing,

8:55

you just got lucky. And so that's,

8:58

it's nice to see that afterwards to

9:00

be like, okay, what happened in that

9:02

project, what happened in that project, you know,

9:04

when you have like 10 years or 15 years

9:06

to go back to be like. Why did

9:08

I get successful with this? And why

9:10

didn't I get successful? Why did this

9:12

fail? And then be able to analyze

9:15

that, understand it, and so now when

9:17

you have a new project, be able

9:19

to reflect and be like, okay, we're

9:21

going to do it the right way

9:23

so that we avoid this, this, this,

9:25

and that. Yeah. And it's interesting

9:28

you kind of talking about that,

9:30

because I've looked back, done a

9:32

lot of reflection on a lot

9:34

of things lately, and really. like layer

9:36

it on top of, you know, all the other skills

9:38

I think I possess that help me make

9:40

a good entrepreneur, like I mean, I'm tenacious

9:43

and just don't give up and we'll work

9:45

hard at something until it works, but, you

9:47

know, if you're doing the right thing at the

9:49

wrong time, it doesn't matter how hard you work

9:51

sometimes or what you're doing, it just, it

9:53

doesn't matter. And, you know, kind of looking

9:56

back over the last 20 years of things

9:58

I've had, the most successful. with,

10:00

you know, I think back to the online

10:02

poker days, that was 100%

10:04

luck and timing, right? I mean,

10:06

like, I work my rear Randolph

10:09

up to that point in my

10:11

life and, you know, my job,

10:13

I was employee of the year

10:15

and, you know, it was just

10:17

a generally hardworking, tenacious person,

10:20

but layered on top of perfect

10:22

timing of getting into that space

10:24

in 2004, you know, I decided

10:26

to get out of it in,

10:28

like, 2011. It had got an

10:31

ultra-competitive and very difficult.

10:33

Got in some other affiliate marketing

10:35

stuff after that, mostly in the

10:37

WordPress theme space and some online

10:39

degree stuff. And again, just the right

10:41

time. It was the perfect time. Like

10:44

they're just the people that were doing the

10:46

marketing and that space were like

10:48

neophytes and just didn't really understand

10:51

how to do their job effectively. But they

10:53

got way better over time and now, you

10:55

know, it's a very crowded space. would be

10:57

really difficult and you know the same

10:59

thing happened with Amazon I mean like

11:01

in and e-commerce in general like when

11:04

we started drop shipping treadmills

11:06

and what would that have been 2012 you

11:08

know we were one of the few people

11:10

doing it right and we sold a million

11:12

dollars of the fitness equipment in our first

11:14

year like not even knowing how to take

11:16

a credit card so you know just a lot

11:18

of it is is just being at the right

11:20

place at the right time and I think that I

11:22

don't know, when you're younger, like you

11:24

never want to accept any such things,

11:27

you want to believe it's you, like

11:29

you're the, you know, you're the sole

11:31

reason that it was successful and, you

11:33

know, everybody else is an idiot and

11:35

it's all because of you, you, you,

11:37

what I've really realized at this point is

11:39

it has very little to do with that

11:41

and a lot to do with timing being at

11:43

the right place at the right time is

11:46

like just such a huge component

11:48

of success. I mean... And it's provable by

11:50

saying like if I was to go back

11:52

and do any of those three things and

11:54

work 10 times harder with more capital I would

11:56

still be a fraction of success, you know,

11:58

like trying to get into today. today. Like

12:00

if I started to try to do like

12:02

do online poker affiliate marketing right

12:05

now, like good, good luck. Not in

12:07

the U.S. You can do somewhere else

12:09

probably, but in the U.S. is going

12:12

to be rough. But anywhere, like, you

12:14

know, or same thing with like getting

12:16

into the WordPress themes affiliate space right

12:19

now. Like, I mean, there's huge players

12:21

in that space that, you know, no

12:23

matter how hard I try to would never

12:25

compete with. And same thing now, you know,

12:27

you know, you know, you know, you know,

12:29

you know, earlier and maybe explain this

12:31

concept because I think when you

12:34

realize this like you approach everything

12:36

a lot differently right like you

12:38

maybe you're starting to look for

12:40

things that have a timing component

12:42

you know you start to actually

12:45

look at that specifically I think that

12:47

maybe you realize that the the fuse

12:49

is short and to take advantage of

12:51

the time that you have in that space

12:54

effectively like laser focus you know and

12:56

not try to do everything all at

12:58

once and be all over the place

13:00

which you know I've definitely done

13:03

because you're wasting time in

13:05

a industry that's probably

13:07

going to mature. So when you

13:09

talk about this how do you

13:11

differentiate timing and trends? Yeah

13:13

I mean I think that come on sides

13:16

right I mean back in let's just say

13:18

2004 again starting all way back

13:20

there there was a a trend

13:22

of starting to play poker online.

13:24

Like there was a trend developing,

13:26

it didn't really exist yet, but

13:28

like there was a trend of poker,

13:30

you know, a macro trying to poker

13:32

becoming more popular, like rounders that come

13:34

out, then Chris Moneymaker ends up

13:37

winning the World Series of Poker, and

13:39

Poker itself is getting way more attention

13:41

in general. So like casinos are

13:43

starting to like open poker rooms, and

13:45

at the same time, like the internet

13:47

was starting to mature, the mature,

13:50

buying things online. and we're becoming comfortable

13:52

enough to make a deposit an

13:54

online poker room, which would have been

13:56

unheard of five or 10 years before that.

13:58

And even, you know, when we first... got started,

14:00

it was like, this will never work.

14:02

Most people are like, there's no way

14:04

in hell that people are ever going to

14:06

trust online poker rooms. Like, it can be

14:08

rigged, it can be stealing your money, all

14:11

of which ended up coming true. It's something.

14:13

Yeah. What was it, absolute procure or something?

14:15

I mean, it was an absolute focal, ultimate

14:17

bet, full-tilt, like, all, you know, were... Oh

14:19

yeah, faulted the whole scandal with full-tale, yeah.

14:21

Yeah, they all, they all, they all, they

14:24

all, they all did various bad various bad

14:26

various bad things, various bad things. but you

14:28

know the industry even survived that is now

14:30

really matured and the thing that's funny is

14:32

like it was banned in the US now

14:34

it's coming back you know slowly but surely

14:37

at a state level so you know those

14:39

are like the big the big trends and

14:41

then you know timing was just being at

14:43

the beginning of that wave like the the

14:46

wave had even like really started

14:48

developing yet it was just like a little

14:50

splash on the shore and you know again that

14:52

was all complete luck you know that

14:54

was you know looking back at it

14:56

realistically I was very lucky to, you know,

14:58

I lived in the Washington D.

15:00

Syria, my family on my mom's

15:03

side was from Atlantic City,

15:05

lived in Atlantic City, worked

15:07

in the casino, my grandmother

15:09

lived directly across the street,

15:12

like directly across the street,

15:14

like I'm not even kidding from

15:16

the Taj Mahal, there was like

15:19

a three-minute walk, and I would

15:21

go over there and play poker.

15:23

Actually, I was playing poker at

15:25

the Tropic, and then... Poker became popular,

15:27

I started hosting like a home poker

15:29

game, like I would have like 20,

15:31

30 people in my townhouse playing poker

15:33

once a month, and I happened to hop

15:35

online and was playing online and

15:37

was playing online poker and happened

15:40

to find out about the affiliate program.

15:42

And again, you know, I was already running

15:44

a side hustle, I was selling stuff on

15:46

eBay, and so like I think all this

15:48

kind of converged with having an

15:50

entrepreneurial spirit, like wanting a

15:53

side hustle, you know, whatever, and like

15:55

marrying all this together. And so, you

15:57

know, I wasn't thinking, I wish I was

15:59

smart enough. say in that moment, I'm like,

16:01

oh, well, like, I see this long-term

16:03

macro trend coming down the pipeline to

16:05

people are going to start playing a

16:07

lot more online poker. I was just

16:10

thinking for the minute. I mean, I

16:12

was in my 20s, I was like,

16:14

I can, I can find 10 people

16:16

to, like, sign up for this online

16:18

poker thing and make a few hundred

16:20

bucks. And then it just kind of

16:22

took off from there. And so I

16:24

think that both the trend and the

16:26

timing kind of coincide. you create your

16:28

own luck too because if you're not

16:30

having that spirit that entrepreneurial spirit and

16:32

you're not taking the risk or you're

16:35

not taking the action of oh let

16:37

me try this it looks like something

16:39

interesting it looks like something that can

16:41

take off you know you don't know

16:43

when you like you said you were

16:45

young and you're like you don't see

16:47

you don't see the picture ten years

16:49

from now but you still have that

16:51

thought that you're like let me try

16:53

this which Which is good and bad

16:55

for us, right? Because like I'm saying

16:57

us entrepreneurs, right? Yeah. It goes back

17:00

to the to the shiny object syndrome

17:02

because we're like, we do that. We

17:04

like we try a bunch of stuff

17:06

and then some are going to work

17:08

and some are not going to work.

17:10

The one that are going to work.

17:12

Yes, some of them is going to

17:14

be timing. Some of them is going

17:16

to be luck, but if you don't

17:18

try them, you're not going to tap

17:20

into this. throw a few darts and

17:23

then see what happens and then know

17:25

when to stick to it or when

17:27

to let it go. And that's really

17:29

the balance that you need to find

17:31

in a career like over you know

17:33

10, 20, 30 years of doing this

17:35

is like when to let it go

17:37

and when to like actually push deep

17:39

into it and and and be resilient.

17:41

Yeah. And I think that it's interesting

17:43

we can use a start analogy. I

17:45

think what you're saying is so true,

17:48

right. I mean You have to try

17:50

a bunch of things until you find

17:52

the successes. I mean, I talk about

17:54

the online poker thing or the other

17:56

affiliate stuff I did or e-commerce. Those

17:58

are the darts they hit. Right, I

18:00

mean there were lots of other things

18:02

that I tried that that were

18:04

just complete failures and just didn't

18:06

go anywhere and I spent somewhere

18:08

between a hundred or tens of

18:10

thousands of dollars, you know, depending

18:12

on what it was Realizing

18:14

that it just it wasn't the right

18:16

thing that it just it wasn't the

18:18

right thing where I think the shiny

18:20

object syndrome You know, I look at

18:23

that as like I am a hustler, you

18:25

know, I'm an entrepreneur by by spirit I'm

18:27

going to try to figure out a way What

18:29

do I try? What do I go do in order

18:31

to find something that works? And, you

18:33

know, and I don't know that that's

18:36

a shiny object thing because, like,

18:38

I mean, you have to iterate relatively

18:40

quickly when you start and realize,

18:42

like, okay, well, this thing's not

18:44

quite working out the way that

18:47

I thought, it was an interesting

18:49

idea, but, like, it was an

18:51

interesting idea, but, like, it didn't

18:53

quite work and it works really

18:55

well. Instead of just like

18:58

doubling, tripling, quadrupling down on

19:00

the thing that was working well, I

19:02

now need 10 things in that same

19:04

industry to like, you know, go be

19:06

the Roman Empire and conquer whatever industry

19:08

it is. And that's where things have

19:10

gotten me in trouble, right? And where

19:12

I'm pretty convinced I won't do

19:15

that moving forward. I think, you

19:17

know, just being focused, books like Essentialism

19:19

or the one thing have been

19:21

very helpful for me, along with

19:23

seeing a happen in practice with

19:26

in the entrepreneurial community. You

19:28

know, I'm in masterminds.

19:30

I have e-com crew, big fan

19:32

of e-commerce fuel, of MDS, of

19:34

other, you know, seller, seller summit,

19:36

other things that I've gone to.

19:38

And the consistent thing, the

19:41

person that has the high eight figure

19:43

or nine figure exit, they have

19:45

one company, right? And they have,

19:47

they have one thing that they focused

19:49

on. They pick the product. good better

19:52

and different and like stuck with that

19:54

thing that brand they weren't trying to

19:56

run an ice pack company and a

19:58

color book company and a company and

20:00

a hardware company like all at once.

20:03

There are private equity firms and people

20:05

that roll this stuff up and specialize

20:07

in that and that's fine and they can

20:09

be successful in their rent but that's

20:11

what they do like that's their their

20:13

secret sauce. Someone else is building the

20:15

business to start with and had focused

20:17

laser focused on building that and

20:19

so that's something I'm just I'm super

20:21

committed to like moving forward like I really

20:23

just want to be working on one thing

20:25

that's what I've been doing you know for

20:28

the last year. God darn man, it is a

20:30

relief. Like all I think about is one thing,

20:32

like I don't think about like

20:34

17 social media accounts across five

20:36

brands and like trying to like go

20:39

in in one direction or the other as

20:41

the tide flows or really as a

20:43

problem comes up, really, you know, the

20:45

business is running you, you're not running

20:47

the business and you know, it gives

20:49

you time to think, you know, it's

20:51

crazy, I've had time to sit down

20:53

and actually think about like what I

20:55

want to do rather than just drinking

20:57

from the fire hose, like whatever,

21:00

you know, hitting me right this

21:02

minute is what I have to

21:04

work on. And, you know, so

21:06

that's something that I think I've

21:08

finally learned my lesson. I think

21:10

I've gone through the drug rehabilitation

21:12

program and come out the other

21:14

side. And, you know, I know

21:16

I'm an addict, you know, my

21:18

tendency is to go do this stuff,

21:20

but I need to not pick up

21:22

that drink. And, you know,

21:24

it's difficult sometimes. he's on YouTube

21:26

I forgot his name he's saying pretty

21:29

much once you find the thing that

21:31

that works just hit that button over

21:33

and over and over until he

21:35

doesn't work anymore or until I

21:37

grow right and so that's a good

21:40

advice thing it's like once you find

21:42

the thing that works just double

21:44

down triple down quadruple down

21:46

right and then just hit it

21:48

until like the growth curves just

21:51

flattens when it's there then the

21:53

effort that you put in is

21:55

not showing in the numbers. Either

21:57

you continue until you find the

21:59

next... that makes that curve continue to

22:01

go up, or now you can just

22:03

pass it on, make it work at

22:06

that level because it capped, and then

22:08

you go and do something else, I

22:10

guess. But the thing is like, for

22:12

most people, and Hormozi says this a

22:14

lot, is like, we give up too

22:16

early, right? I mean, it's not the

22:18

only one that I hope says it

22:21

to, like a lot of people say.

22:23

And I've been very successful. I'm just,

22:25

you know, mentioning people who are. hundreds

22:27

of millions in revenue a year you

22:29

know so yeah it's not working you're

22:31

flattening it doesn't mean that you need

22:33

to give up it doesn't mean that

22:35

you don't know what you're doing anymore

22:38

like self-doubt is a big thing for

22:40

us too because we're working working working

22:42

and then you do 50 hours of

22:44

work or a hundred hours of work

22:46

and then it gives you a hundred

22:48

grand or whatever I'm just making numbers

22:50

right and then the next month you

22:53

put 500 hours and you got 20

22:55

grand out And you're like, what did

22:57

I do different on the first one?

22:59

Well, maybe it's not, it's not your

23:01

fault, it's just you haven't figured out

23:03

what the next step is. So just

23:05

continue at it and then you're gonna

23:08

find that next step. And most people

23:10

are just like, oh, if I did

23:12

a hundred hours last month, then I'm

23:14

gonna give up. Because it's what I

23:16

did last month. And it's not the

23:18

way it works. Yeah. So it's very

23:20

difficult to actually. have conscious of this

23:22

and continue, but also the same time

23:25

is difficult to be like, okay, I

23:27

need to let it go. This project

23:29

is not working. I need to just

23:31

drop it and go move on to

23:33

something else. And I think that's the

23:35

most difficult in this work in this

23:37

environment is to really make the decision.

23:40

Do I continue to push on it?

23:42

Am I being stubborn? You know, or

23:44

do I need to just... continue like

23:46

actually push on it another thousand hours

23:48

and then because this is the way

23:50

to go and that's not going to

23:52

be difficult to figure out sometimes I

23:54

mean because there is you know phenomena

23:57

of not giving up being a problem

23:59

All right, being

24:01

so stubborn that you bankrupt

24:03

yourself, chasing an idea that you

24:05

might have. And so I look back

24:07

at things, I feel like I've done

24:09

a pretty good job with this. Like

24:11

I push things, I don't give up

24:14

to a point where at some point, and

24:17

I think you always go, someone that's

24:19

tenacious is gonna always take a little bit

24:21

too far, like on a scale of one to

24:23

10, where like five is the perfect place where

24:25

you should stop. It's like you get to six, seven, eight,

24:27

you put too much effort into it, you should have

24:29

given up a long time ago kind of thing. I'm probably

24:31

like a six and a half. You know,

24:33

I go a little bit too far, but

24:35

at some point like reality kicks in and

24:37

I'm willing to accept the reality of like,

24:40

I had this idea or I've been working

24:42

on this thing. And by the way, it can

24:44

be something that was once successful that

24:46

is no longer having the same

24:48

benefits. And that has actually happened

24:50

in all three of my successes

24:52

as well. Like online poker hit that

24:55

point at some level, you

24:57

know, as Net Teller got shut

24:59

down and then Black Friday happened and absolute

25:01

poker in Old Town Bet and full tilt

25:03

and poker stars all got shut down and

25:05

they got found for these cheating scandals and

25:07

they, you know, people put out the US,

25:09

all these, you know, things at a certain point were just

25:11

like, you know, I got, this

25:13

was working really, really well at one point, but it

25:15

no longer does, you know, and the same thing

25:17

happened to some of the other affiliate stuff. And I

25:19

feel like we're kind of like at this inflection

25:21

point with e -commerce right now as well with

25:24

a lot of e -commerce businesses. I think there's

25:26

still a lot of room left for a

25:28

lot of successful types of e -commerce businesses. But,

25:30

you know, the days of just having like a,

25:32

a Me Too white label product

25:34

type business has kind of hit that

25:36

point of, you know, what point

25:38

do I stop knocking my head against

25:40

the wall trying to grow this business,

25:42

either top line or bottom line

25:44

when there's pressure from every direction.

25:47

And so, you know, I think that there's, there's

25:50

some tough decisions that may be made down the

25:52

road for that as well. You know, and I

25:54

think that happens and that can be a brand new

25:56

business that you have to make this decision for or even

25:58

one that's had, it's, It's

26:00

probably hardest, the one that's

26:02

had a lot of success,

26:05

that you've pulled a lot of

26:07

money out of it, and that's

26:09

what you remember. And, you know,

26:11

it's like a girl that once

26:13

loved you, but they tell you

26:15

they want to break up. It's

26:17

like it doesn't mean that

26:20

you don't still love them or

26:22

you don't want to be involved

26:24

in that, but, you know, it's

26:26

just the way things are sometimes.

26:28

what makes you successful because you're

26:31

not a two and you don't give

26:33

up early yes you push through that

26:35

threshold and then actually get to

26:37

the successful part instead of you know

26:39

digging for gold you've seen that mean

26:41

like digging for gold and there is

26:43

two people and the one that's like

26:45

right next to it give up and

26:47

you give up to early well gold

26:49

is right there is like behind behind

26:51

the wall but you don't know so yeah you

26:54

need to find that that really thin line

26:56

When do I continue or when do I?

26:58

Yeah. And I have quite literally, and I

27:00

don't ever really talk about this much on

27:02

the podcast, I don't like talk about money,

27:04

but I have, you know, quite literally have

27:06

made millions of dollars that I would

27:08

not have made if I was a two. Right?

27:10

I mean, like there's been... Sure. I think

27:12

I've told you, we end up talking about

27:14

this for 45 minutes, but back in the early

27:17

poker day stuff, I mean... we're actually faced with

27:19

a situation where it's like it doesn't like we're

27:21

going to be bankrupt either way if this doesn't work

27:23

out because we were already in too deep so it's

27:25

like might as well keep on going at this point

27:27

because like if i will bankrupt you with fifty thousand

27:29

dollars a debtor five hundred thousand dollars a debt is

27:32

exactly the same so just like let's let's go

27:34

you know but there's been other times you know since

27:36

then e-commerce is definitely one of those things where

27:38

you know I had a lot you know to stand

27:40

a lot to lose a lot to lose a lot more to

27:42

lose a lot more because we've a lot more because we had

27:44

a lot to lose a lot more because we had some

27:46

and stuck with things. And so yeah, I do think

27:49

that you have to have that type

27:51

of personality and the best thing

27:53

anybody can do that's listening that's

27:55

early in their entrepreneur career is

27:57

to be honest with themselves about this.

27:59

right? Like I mean, if you

28:02

are a two or a three on

28:04

this scale, you probably should step aside

28:06

from being an entrepreneur and go back

28:08

to having a job. And that's not

28:11

meant to be mean or rude in

28:13

any way, shape or form. You know,

28:15

like there's, we've all taken these personality

28:17

tests and to be good employees and

28:20

to help, you know, make us successful.

28:22

and you need a certain type of

28:24

wacko to be the leader that's gonna

28:26

you know take these chances right in

28:29

like society will fall apart if you

28:31

try to like be outside your your

28:33

comfort zone and in the end you'll

28:35

you won't succeed and so I don't

28:38

know like I mean there's a lot

28:40

of disadvantages to being a six and

28:42

a half on this scale as well

28:44

you know but you know I think

28:47

that the best thing that someone can

28:49

do is just be honest with themselves

28:51

if they really aren't willing to put

28:53

their their life savings at risk. or

28:56

work 16 hours a day, seven days

28:58

a week, and affect their health and

29:00

their other relationships, etc. for some period

29:02

of time to get this thing off

29:05

the ground and be willing to ignore

29:07

what everyone else around them is saying

29:09

and continue to go forward with it,

29:12

which is where I've been more than

29:14

once. And again, it seems like you're

29:16

irrational and the crazy one, but you

29:18

have to be willing to take it

29:21

to that level at some point. every

29:23

time you're the rational one and you're

29:25

the crazy one every single time in

29:27

everything you do it doesn't have to

29:30

be entrepreneur entrepreneurial you know are related

29:32

I can see with my fitness that's

29:34

true like half the time people are

29:36

like why are you doing this or

29:39

or you know it's like well you

29:41

know either you commit or you don't

29:43

so then you get the results or

29:45

you don't but yeah so to to

29:48

talk about what you said I mean

29:50

I'm gonna disagree a little bit on

29:52

what you said because even though I

29:54

agree with with the personality and who

29:57

we are like naturally I believe that

29:59

people can grow into something if they're

30:01

nurtured the right way and then they

30:03

get exposed to things slowly a little

30:06

bit more slowly right so the thing

30:08

is like most of us we are

30:10

from our childhood as well like what

30:13

happened to us in our childhood did

30:15

we have quick wins like or not

30:17

or you know and then we we

30:19

get there like do we take care

30:22

of our parents to Chris or not

30:24

like all these things right and so

30:26

I believe that someone I take an

30:28

example of e-commerce right and and Amazon

30:31

because that's what we know probably that

30:33

is when you when you want to

30:35

go on Amazon and sell supplements you

30:37

know you're going to go deep into

30:40

the tank of investing a lot on

30:42

ads a time a time. And so

30:44

the more it goes, the more you

30:46

have to spend money because the bigger

30:49

the market is and then the more

30:51

competition there is and then all that,

30:53

right? So if someone with 10 grand

30:55

should go into supplements, my advice would

30:58

be probably not. This is not a

31:00

good place for you to go because

31:02

you don't have enough capital and enough

31:04

experience to go into that. You can't

31:07

sustain for long enough, the whole, right,

31:09

going into the whole, to actually come

31:11

on top out of it. you should

31:14

pick something else where you have a

31:16

cap that's lower so you're going to

31:18

make less money at the end of

31:20

the day but you have a quick

31:23

win and you can actually get there

31:25

and then learn and then later on

31:27

go to a medium market and do

31:29

something like that and then go to

31:32

a very competitive market when you have

31:34

the money to do it and the

31:36

knowledge and so you don't bankrupt yourself

31:38

going there and you'd also It's money-wise,

31:41

but it's also psychologically, like you said.

31:43

Because if you go into something that

31:45

difficult, right? I mean, I consider supplements

31:47

to be difficult on Amazon. like most

31:50

difficult. Some people are going to say,

31:52

I know it's easy, I've made six

31:54

million, 100 million, okay, good for you,

31:56

but the thing is like it is

31:59

more difficult, it's more like there's more

32:01

to it than just another product or

32:03

simple product, simple niche, that's smaller, and

32:05

so you need the time to learn,

32:08

you need to allow yourself to learn

32:10

and not just go into into it

32:12

and bankrupt and then you give up

32:14

because like, ah, this e-comers thing doesn't

32:17

work. Or I'm too stupid to actually

32:19

make it work. Like you put it

32:21

on yourself, like some people do that,

32:24

right? They're like, ah, it's just not

32:26

for me because I'm not, this is

32:28

not for me. You just picked the

32:30

wrong line. That's all it is. You

32:33

can make it work. Just pick something

32:35

more simple and it's okay. We can

32:37

go in circles talking about this all

32:39

day. We're already over time. I want

32:42

to, before sign off though, I do

32:44

want to talk a little bit about

32:46

what you've ended up on. missed a

32:48

whole bunch of connected dots stuff in

32:51

between because we started chit-chat and but

32:53

another thing that we've had in common

32:55

is is using a team in the

32:57

Philippines. You had I think at our

33:00

peak 26 employees there before selling some

33:02

stuff off and scaling back but you

33:04

also hire there I don't know if

33:06

that was something you know I was

33:09

talking to you about at dinner one

33:11

night or something or you found it

33:13

some other way but you've taken it

33:15

to another level now and actually run

33:18

a team where you can outsource VAs

33:20

to other people and they're already trained

33:22

in Amazon, which is freaking cold because

33:25

everybody that we hired, we had to

33:27

train them ourselves and you know they

33:29

didn't know the vocabulary and all this

33:31

always stuff and it's just it's a

33:34

long road. So it's kind of like

33:36

a dream you know kind of thinking

33:38

back to like been able to to

33:40

have someone that starts on day one

33:43

that that understands Amazon, that understands, you

33:45

know, the platform and what Amazon PC

33:47

might be or like how to create

33:49

a shipment or deal with support or

33:52

whatever, you know, we would have spent

33:54

a lot less time in aggravation training

33:56

people. So... And I'll ask a couple

33:58

minutes here, tell us a little bit

34:01

about your VA placement service. Yeah, thanks.

34:03

So the way that he came across

34:05

is I was, so I created my

34:07

Amazon store back 20, 2017, right? And

34:10

it was working by myself and then

34:12

did like 750,000 on the first year

34:14

and then like 1.1.2 on the second

34:16

year, but I was by myself. So

34:19

I was working 60-70. hours a week,

34:21

like pretty much that was my life

34:23

doing everything and I was proud of

34:25

it. I was proud of it, but

34:28

I was overworked and no social life

34:30

and nothing and one day I was

34:32

at a conference and I was talking

34:35

to a friend and he's like, why

34:37

don't you hire someone to do that

34:39

work for you? And the mindset at

34:41

the time was like, why would I

34:44

pay someone to do something like and

34:46

do myself for free? Right. You know,

34:48

like that was my my answer. And

34:50

it's funny now that I say it's

34:53

completely ironiconic, right. So that stayed with

34:55

me for a few months and I

34:57

saw that this person again, that was

34:59

in August or July, I saw this

35:02

person again in October that year and

35:04

they were like, so how is it

35:06

going? And I'm like, well, still at

35:08

750 or whatever I was at, right?

35:11

Still the same, still working 80 hours.

35:13

And so they're like, so you're going

35:15

to hire someone or there's just going

35:17

to continue that way. And then now

35:20

like it kind of, you know, stuck

35:22

with me. And so I went on

35:24

to the recruiting. face which I've never

35:26

done before so he was very new

35:29

for me and in December found someone

35:31

a mom stay at home home that

35:33

run up she ran a customer service

35:36

department of like 40-50 people in the

35:38

Philippines before she stopped to take care

35:40

of her kids and then two years

35:42

later she's like okay I want to

35:45

go back to the to the workforce

35:47

right and so I was like okay

35:49

let's give it a try was five

35:51

dollars an hour project manager you know

35:54

I was like okay cool let's try

35:56

it no idea and then three months

35:58

later, I had my life back. Like

36:00

my whole business was running by itself,

36:03

almost all of it, you know, outsource

36:05

everything, discovered what an SOPI is. No

36:07

idea what an SOPI was at the

36:09

time. So it wrote down everything, you

36:12

know. And so I was like, wow,

36:14

if that works for me, if that

36:16

was in that position, right, all the

36:18

people are going to be in the

36:21

same position, then there's no way I'm

36:23

the only one that's facing this facing

36:25

this problem that's facing facing this problem.

36:27

So I run this for a year

36:30

and then I sold that business and

36:32

that business was sellable only because it

36:34

was run by someone else but with

36:37

VAs right I had a team of

36:39

three at the time when I sold

36:41

it and then I still managed this

36:43

business today with the team that was

36:46

there you know I'm saying like you're

36:48

still running it by itself and there's

36:50

a weird situation of like I sold

36:52

the business but they wanted you to

36:55

continue to maintain the business. So I

36:57

was like, listen, I can just tell

36:59

manage it for you, the team is

37:01

in place, it takes me a couple

37:04

hours a week anyway, and then I

37:06

take a percentage of the profit. So

37:08

it's great for me, it's great for

37:10

them, it's great for everyone, and then

37:13

the business is still growing today, so

37:15

that's awesome. So created via placement, the

37:17

day I sold, like the same month,

37:19

I mean, I sold April 1st 2019,

37:22

2019, so. started to grow that into

37:24

the Amazon space because that's where my

37:26

expertise was right and so we created

37:28

courses inside of via placement because the

37:31

problem like you said is like you

37:33

recruit people but then you need to

37:35

train them and then not everyone knows

37:37

and then you go on these platforms

37:40

are recruiting platforms and then they say

37:42

oh I know how to do this

37:44

I know how to do that but

37:47

you know it one way you don't

37:49

know it my way And then you

37:51

know, so you want consistency and we

37:53

wanted to offer consistency to the sellers,

37:56

right? And to everyone who wanted. to

37:58

hire from us so we know exactly

38:00

what our people know when we place

38:02

them and on day one they can

38:05

work. And the more we go, the

38:07

more we iterate this and so now

38:09

we have an SOP software that we

38:11

use that's very consistent that we put

38:14

in place with our clients, right? We

38:16

have a CRM that we put in

38:18

place with our clients as well. So

38:20

the more we go, the more we

38:23

implement more and more towards a turnkey

38:25

solution, but some people still want recruitment,

38:27

some people have. already a team. They

38:29

just want great people which we

38:32

can find them and then we

38:34

just recruit them for them and

38:36

then they place them internally. But

38:38

some people need the hand-holding and

38:41

they need all this turnkey solution

38:43

so that we can come in

38:45

and then get their life back. Excellent.

38:48

And that's VA placement. So

38:50

Victor Alpha. Placement.com

38:52

and we're working on developing more

38:54

outside of Amazon as well because

38:57

we found that need. So we

38:59

have executive assistance now, we have

39:01

more and more industries that we

39:04

develop and every single time

39:06

we develop the courses inside to

39:08

make sure that everybody that comes out.

39:11

is actually consistent with what we offer.

39:13

And so every single customer or clients

39:15

that come through us, they have the

39:17

same experience. Very cool. So if you're

39:20

in the mood for a VA and

39:22

want to get your life back, or

39:24

just need some extra help, go check

39:26

out VA placement. Like I said,

39:28

I have no numeric for 15 years.

39:30

He's crushing it over there. It's what

39:32

he's focusing on full time now, is this

39:35

just helping people with their staffing needs.

39:37

What's a good email for you as

39:39

well, Mark? It's Rick at va placement.com.

39:41

Just R. I. C. A. C. At

39:43

va placement.com. That works. But va

39:45

placement.com. There is a contact form as

39:47

well. That's gonna come to us. So,

39:49

yeah. Awesome, man. Well, have to have

39:51

you come back on. We can talk more

39:53

about business philosophy and maybe finish the rest

39:56

of your story. I don't know how we

39:58

got off on a tangent. but no

40:00

problem. This is exactly how things happen

40:02

when we're at dinner or something too.

40:05

It's like we start talking about one

40:07

thing and next thing you know it's

40:09

like similar to browsing Wikipedia. You know

40:11

you go on there to find out

40:14

about the history of a stadium or

40:16

how many seats a stadium has or

40:18

something next thing you know like you're

40:20

reading about the Sphinx. It's like, how

40:23

the hell did I get over here?

40:25

The rabbit hole of you too. Oh

40:27

yeah, 100%, man. Definitely. Well, thank you

40:29

so much for my donors. Yeah. Yeah,

40:31

thank you so much for having me.

40:34

Like, it was a pleasure. My pleasure

40:36

as well. Big of my friends.

40:38

Thank you. Marketing is hard.

40:40

But I'll tell you a little

40:43

secret. It doesn't have to be.

40:45

Let me point something out. You're

40:47

listening to a podcast right now,

40:49

and it's great. Podcasts are a

40:52

pretty close companion. And this is a

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podcast ad. Did I get your attention?

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