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all states or

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situations. All right, hey guys,

1:53

welcome back to the show. This week's a topic

1:55

I wish we would have covered for the last

1:57

couple years But I couldn't find an expert on

1:59

the topic This is something you needed to hear

2:01

and you needed to learn about. And what

2:03

we're gonna talk about today is

2:06

virtual communication. So that's everything from

2:08

email, Zoom, text messaging, all of it.

2:10

We're gonna talk about everything virtual communication,

2:12

which I've never been taught how to do,

2:14

and my guess is you haven't either. Yet

2:16

it's the way most of us communicate

2:18

nowadays. And there's no content and

2:20

no work been done on the topic

2:23

until this man's written this book. And

2:25

so he is a virtual communications expert

2:27

at the University of the University of

2:29

Texas. This guy's a PhD, Harvard Business

2:32

School, but more than that, the way

2:34

he writes, you can understand it. You

2:36

don't have to be a Harvard NBA

2:39

or PhD to understand his work, but

2:41

you can be anybody to utilize it.

2:43

So he's an award-winning profession. This guy's

2:45

got his act together, and this book

2:48

is awesome. The book is called Pying,

2:50

The Secrets of Successful, Virtual

2:52

Communication, and the guy who

2:54

wrote it is with me here

2:56

today. Andrew Broadski. Welcome. which is

2:59

virtual charisma. And I think

3:01

charisma is one of the

3:03

most under explained invisible things

3:05

on the planet that winners

3:07

have. And charisma can come in

3:09

a lot of different ways, but I'll

3:12

give you my term when you're done,

3:14

but in the virtual world, it's

3:16

very easy digitally to lose charisma

3:19

when you're an overall

3:21

influential charismatic person. Do

3:23

you think leadership could... The

3:25

separator may be charisma and how could

3:28

someone become more charismatic virtually? Any hack

3:30

or info from you. Eye contact, looking

3:32

like you're paying attention is key here.

3:35

For most of us, our cameras are not

3:37

where the other person is. So there may

3:39

be between your two monitors or your cameras

3:41

on top of your webcam, but the screen

3:43

of the other person, you know, it's a

3:45

zoom, they're on the left side of your

3:47

screen. So even though you're looking at the

3:49

other person, to them, it doesn't look like

3:51

you're looking like you're looking at them.

3:54

And taking down notes is really

3:56

useful, but for most of us they

3:58

can't see our hands on the call. Like

4:00

right now if you're watching the video

4:02

because you've got a great podcast set

4:04

up, you know, we see your whole

4:06

upper body, but in most cases, you

4:09

see shoulders up. So if I were

4:11

to take notes now, it looks like

4:13

I'm doing the one thing you said

4:15

would be the worst. Checking my cell

4:17

phone. But by wanting I do down

4:20

on my other zooms, I want to

4:22

keep going back and forth of you

4:24

on this. You're so right, I just

4:26

want to tell everybody what I do

4:28

on a Zoom, because I don't want

4:31

them thinking that when I'm on a

4:33

Zoom that's more closed up. This is

4:35

little stuff, guys, but it's big stuff.

4:37

I will raise my notepad up and

4:40

do it in screenshot and then put

4:42

it back down so that they know

4:44

when I'm doing that, what I'm doing.

4:46

It's a little easy stuff. Here's the

4:48

bottom line, and then I'll let you

4:51

jump, keep going. The bottom line is,

4:53

when you're in virtual. and we don't

4:55

because it's virtual we're just perceiving things

4:57

so the best people virtually are thinking

4:59

about how they're perceived so like when

5:02

I do coaching calls one-on-one I'll I'll

5:04

not say it but I'll be like

5:06

this and then I'll put it back

5:08

down so they know that that's what

5:11

I'm doing so everybody just that's why

5:13

we're doing the back and forth version

5:15

of the interview today that's important that

5:17

you're just become hyper aware of your

5:19

perception of your perception on the zoom

5:22

Keep going, please. I jumped because we

5:24

decided we were going to do it

5:26

that way. So then, I love them,

5:28

we kind of go back and forth.

5:30

Yeah, and you could just say it

5:33

too. And this gets to the perspective

5:35

taking the P framework, right? It's, they

5:37

don't, you think, oh, it's obvious I'm

5:39

taking notes, but they don't see it.

5:41

So just saying, oh, that's a really

5:44

good point, let me write it down.

5:46

and saying that you're writing it down

5:48

as you're looking down so it doesn't

5:50

look like you're looking off your computer

5:53

screen at your cell phone or you

5:55

know even saying like oh let me

5:57

I'm checking my other monitor here like

5:59

I'm looking at the previous report just

6:01

dropping it casually in conversation the assumptions

6:04

are what is killer in virtual communication

6:06

because you realize you're looking for other

6:08

information to their question to them it

6:10

looks like you're looking away and you

6:12

don't even care anymore about the situation

6:15

and for charisma it's accused that matter

6:17

so So I contact is key. And

6:19

so one of the things I recommend

6:21

is finding ways to make sure that

6:23

the other person is near your webcam.

6:26

And the low tech way is drag

6:28

their screen to right under your webcam.

6:30

The mid-tech options are there's like hanging

6:32

webcams you can stick on your screen

6:35

There's webcam stands at bend the more

6:37

high-tech options are there now teleprompter webcams

6:39

that are like behind a screen So

6:41

you could be looking at your screen

6:43

and your webcam still happening and there's

6:46

now AI tools that are center eye

6:48

contact Although those can be a little

6:50

creepy if you're looking away and your

6:52

eyes are still dead center But beyond

6:54

eye contact, your background is going to

6:57

matter. It's going to impact perceptions of

6:59

you. You want it to be professional.

7:01

Your clothes matter. That's really key. And

7:03

the other thing too is in person,

7:05

it's obvious you're paying attention to the

7:08

other person. So when you are interacting

7:10

virtually, one of the most important things

7:12

for charisma is making it clear you're

7:14

paying attention. Repeat what they said. Has

7:17

them follow-up questions. As you mentioned, nod,

7:19

you know, acknowledge them because we often

7:21

think, I know I'm paying attention, so

7:23

they probably realize it. Don't assume that.

7:25

When we're virtual and we don't see

7:28

what the other person is doing, we

7:30

often come on with these negative assumptions.

7:32

That's part of why so many managers

7:34

hate remote work is they assume everyone

7:36

just being lazy because they can't see

7:39

them, even though in many cases, albeit

7:41

not all, people often put in more

7:43

hours into their work. It's just not

7:45

being able to see everything that leads

7:48

these negative assumptions. So showing you're engaged,

7:50

showing you care are the biggest things

7:52

you can do to improve charisma there.

7:54

Very good. You know one of things

7:56

like outstanding by the way, you know,

7:59

no one writes about this and I

8:01

may I speak on stage I do

8:03

podcast obviously I had a TV show

8:05

I'm good at this type of communication.

8:07

I'm a terrible I am a terrible

8:10

emailer, by the way, too. People always

8:12

tell me I come across as curt

8:14

or short, and I found in my

8:16

life that people that sometimes are really

8:18

good at one type of communication aren't

8:21

good at like digital communication, and I'm

8:23

not very good. I'm not a great

8:25

text or anything like that. Is that

8:27

why you decided to do this work?

8:30

Is that there's been no one taught

8:32

the topic, and how important is this

8:34

ping framework that you created? Is there

8:36

all these arguments happening about is remote

8:38

work good, is remote work bad? And

8:41

the thing that they're all missing is

8:43

that it doesn't matter where anyone works

8:45

anymore, whether at home or office, we're

8:47

all communicating primarily through virtual communication. So

8:49

even if someone's two feet away from

8:52

you in the office, they're gonna instant

8:54

message you because that way they're not

8:56

interrupting you every time they have a

8:58

question. The old way was you'd go

9:00

over and knock on someone's cubicle or

9:03

door and ask them, but it didn't

9:05

matter what they were doing. So now

9:07

there's these good ways to avoid just

9:09

interrupting what everyone is doing. And even

9:12

at home, if your kids are a

9:14

few feet away from you, they might

9:16

be texting you instead of talking to

9:18

you. So we're just all doing this

9:20

all the time. And for me, it

9:23

felt valuable to be able to put

9:25

this out there. What's ping? What's that

9:27

framework? What's that framework? Yeah. When I

9:29

read a book I love having a

9:31

framework. So I want to want it

9:34

for my book ping. And the ping

9:36

framework represents for perspective taking. I for

9:38

initiative and for nonverbal and G for

9:40

goals. So perspective taking is centered on

9:42

this idea that when we communicate virtually,

9:45

we tend to be more self-focused. When

9:47

we're in person, someone standing right in

9:49

front of us. When we're doing email,

9:51

there's just working at text on a

9:54

screen and stay. We're not thinking about

9:56

the person. And like even during this

9:58

call that you and I are having

10:00

on video. I'm looking at a small

10:02

square view over here as opposed to

10:05

you being all the way in front

10:07

of me. And that's one of the

10:09

main drivers behind wild... we often write

10:11

things we wouldn't do in person because

10:13

we're much more self-focused and we wouldn't

10:16

say it if they were standing right

10:18

there in front of us. I is

10:20

the initiative and that is the idea

10:22

that every mode has strengths and weaknesses

10:25

and you need to think about how

10:27

can I add back in what's missing

10:29

here. So for instance, tax-based communication, it

10:31

often misses small talk and small talk.

10:33

It's annoying because it's a productivity sink,

10:36

but it's also really useful because it

10:38

builds trust. And thinking about how to

10:40

add back in whatever's missing in a

10:42

given mode can make it even better.

10:44

N, nonverbal, that's the idea that there's

10:47

so many different cues that occur virtually

10:49

that we don't even realize as a

10:51

post in person. So for instance, typos

10:53

can relay emotion and email. Time a

10:55

day message is sent can relay power.

10:58

When you're doing a video call, your

11:00

background matters. Should you look at the

11:02

person? Should you look at your webcam?

11:04

There are all these different nonverbal behaviors

11:07

that alter how your message is interpreted.

11:09

And lastly, G is goals. And the

11:11

idea here is that there's no one

11:13

best mode of communication. If you're a

11:15

someone who's had hours of wasted meetings

11:18

every week, that should have been an

11:20

email. You know that emails should be

11:22

better sometimes. If you've ever had one

11:24

of those like email chains or text

11:26

chains that went on for weeks, that

11:29

could have been ended if someone just

11:31

picked up the phone and talked for

11:33

five minutes. Then you know that sometimes

11:35

that's the worst choice. So the best

11:37

choice is going to depend on what

11:40

your goal is for the given situation.

11:42

So that pink framework, I pile the

11:44

recommendations into it in the book to

11:46

make them easier to remember. That's awesome.

11:49

Let's break down some of these things

11:51

together. We're going to talk about text,

11:53

email, I think in predominantly, virtual meeting

11:55

like Zoom. You stipulate in the book

11:57

that the type of communication you use

12:00

sends an unspoken voice. value to that

12:02

communication, correct? So if that's true, which

12:04

are the most valuable and which are

12:06

the least valuable, or does it depend

12:08

on the conditions? It depends on the

12:11

conditions, but let me give you an

12:13

example here. That's a clear one. Authenticity.

12:15

It's like a big buzzword now. Like

12:17

everyone's wants authentic leadership. We should be

12:19

authentic in the way we interact with

12:22

each other. And so I did some

12:24

research looking at, but what mode of

12:26

communication seems the most authentic. Great. And

12:28

I talk about two different types of

12:31

authenticity. The first is your true authenticity.

12:33

You actually feel what you need. In

12:35

those cases, the richer the mode, the

12:37

better. So video in person, because you

12:39

want to have that authenticity shine through

12:42

and be most visible. The thing is,

12:44

though, most of the time we aren't

12:46

truly authentic. So maybe you had a

12:48

fight with your partner in the morning,

12:50

so you're upset. Or maybe you had

12:53

a bad commute, commute, so you're stressed.

12:55

But you need to be happy with

12:57

the person you're interacting with because maybe

12:59

it's a co-worker who got something good

13:01

happening and you need to congratulate them.

13:04

Or maybe it's a friend who you're

13:06

congratulating them or you just want to

13:08

be positive in that moment, but maybe

13:10

you don't feel so good yourself. And

13:13

so that's what we call surface acting.

13:15

It's often referred to as service with

13:17

a smile, but we're often doing it

13:19

not just in service interactions. We do

13:21

it with our co-workers. because oftentimes the

13:24

best emotion just doesn't match what we're

13:26

supposed to show. So if you're firing

13:28

one of your employees because you just

13:30

have to downsize your organization's forcing you

13:32

to do it for instance. But you

13:35

had something awesome happened to you. Maybe

13:37

your partner accepted your marriage proposal. You

13:39

can't go into that layoff meeting being

13:41

like, I am so excited today, but

13:44

I do have to let you off.

13:46

That's just really bad forever. And those

13:48

situations, what I found was that People

13:50

tend to choose email and text-based communication

13:52

because it's easiest and it feels like

13:55

it hide your emotion the best, but

13:57

that's the wrong choice. What the best

13:59

choice was was audio interactions. So that's

14:01

a sweet spot because audio, whether that's

14:03

camera's off, meetings, or telephone, it seems

14:06

much higher effort than email. Could you

14:08

imagine if someone sent you a life

14:10

and someone sent you an email about

14:12

it who's a really good friend? And

14:14

they never called you, they never came

14:17

over, that just shows you they don't

14:19

care. But the advantage of audio is

14:21

that it masks all your other nonverbal

14:23

behaviors that you might show in a

14:26

video call. All it does is your

14:28

tone and your words. So it doesn't

14:30

let things leak through that might in

14:32

person or via video. It doesn't show

14:34

if you accidentally grimace or you accidentally

14:37

smile when you shouldn't. So the nice

14:39

thing about audio is it seems really

14:41

high effort, similar to video or in

14:43

person. But it doesn't have things leaked

14:45

through that you don't want to that

14:48

wouldn't a video caller in person Let's

14:50

break this down. I want to about

14:52

voice memos or voice notes too Okay,

14:54

so everyone lean in here. Okay. This

14:56

is big. This is why you're missing

14:59

sales. This is why your relationships aren't

15:01

as deep as they could be this

15:03

is why stuff just doesn't feel as

15:05

connected as it could so this is

15:08

important stuff here I got an email

15:10

last week from somebody who has my

15:12

phone number we text regularly and we

15:14

have zoomed regularly Yet I got an

15:16

email. And immediately when I got an

15:19

email I thought, that's the coldest way

15:21

you could have communicated with me. That's

15:23

what it felt like. And it was

15:25

a pretty heavy email about some business

15:27

stuff where we're probably going to part

15:30

ways. They chose that because it is

15:32

the least connected way to communicate and

15:34

they had the least amount of fear

15:36

about typing out a long email to

15:38

me. It's impact. I kept reading it

15:41

over and over again. So they had

15:43

no nuance, no ability to explain and

15:45

almost no context also. So it came

15:47

across very harsh when I got it.

15:50

So I agree with you that a

15:52

verbal call or a verbal zoom would

15:54

be. good. I often find, I'll give

15:56

you another example, I was going back

15:58

and forth with someone yesterday about, it

16:01

doesn't matter what it was, but we

16:03

were texting and it got a little

16:05

bit, they thought I was more upset

16:07

about what they had done than I

16:09

was. And so I'd send a six-letter

16:12

response, they sent me nine pages back,

16:14

we've all had those text, right? So

16:16

finally what I did is I voice

16:18

noted them and said, bro, I want

16:21

you to hear my voice, here's the

16:23

dialogue. So I want to ask you

16:25

about voice notes. One, I use them

16:27

very rarely only to communicate nuance and

16:29

context. Typically when I think a conversation

16:32

is not being communicated accurately. The reason

16:34

I do it sparingly is I hate

16:36

getting them. I think it's, I'm like,

16:38

okay, you didn't want to take the

16:40

time of typing me a text. So

16:43

now you're going to make me sit

16:45

here and listen to your four and

16:47

a half minute long voice note that

16:49

cuts off every time my phone rings.

16:51

And so I wonder your feelings about

16:54

everything I just said in general about

16:56

voice note for context and or though

16:58

the recipient just going shoot I gotta

17:00

it sounds crazy but nowadays to listen

17:03

to a three minute long voice note

17:05

isn't it amazing 20 years ago that'd

17:07

be nothing but now it's like three

17:09

minutes I don't have three minutes I

17:11

got other stuff so what are your

17:14

thoughts about voice notes overall so to

17:16

the base point you talked about this

17:18

emotion misinterpretation Research shows that we are

17:20

heavily overconfident about our ability to relay

17:22

emotions over text-based communication. So the problem

17:25

isn't just that we're bad at it,

17:27

it's that we don't realize we're bad

17:29

at it. And they've done studies where

17:31

they have people say, okay, we want

17:33

you to relay a sarcastic message or

17:36

a serious message. And they say, how

17:38

confident are you the other person's going

17:40

to get it? And people are super

17:42

confident. Turns out, they very rarely get

17:45

it right. One of the recommendations stemming

17:47

from this is that a way to

17:49

fix this is if you have an

17:51

important message, read it out loud in

17:53

the opposite tone that you intended. you're

17:56

like oh wait that is clearly not

17:58

clear the problem is we're writing messages

18:00

we hear the motion in our heads

18:02

and so it seems obvious but the

18:04

other person they don't hear the motion

18:07

in their heads they come from a

18:09

different set of information assumptions and they

18:11

hear something different and that causes the

18:13

misinterpretation to voice notes now so it

18:15

depends on the situation here and you

18:18

hit on two really good points about

18:20

voice notes the first is they are

18:22

a pain And there's also asynchronous videos

18:24

now. So the more casually people use

18:27

Snapchat, but there's a number of companies

18:29

now that are allowing basically create the

18:31

technology that you can send videos, personalized

18:33

videos, and email. And this is often

18:35

in sales context, you'll see this. And

18:38

they can be a pain to receive,

18:40

whereas with an email or text message,

18:42

you can read it quickly. You can

18:44

skim it with a video or a

18:46

voice note. You gotta listen to the

18:49

whole thing. It doesn't work really well.

18:51

And then later on, let's just say

18:53

you said something I want to go

18:55

back to. In an email I could

18:58

just do, you know, control I have

19:00

to find it or I could skim

19:02

it and find it. For a voice

19:04

note I'm like clicking around trying to

19:06

get to the right part of that.

19:09

And so it's really unproductive for going

19:11

back to as well. All that together

19:13

though, they do serve a purpose and

19:15

you hit on it really nicely. If

19:17

you're in an email situation or text

19:20

or instant message or slack. And it's

19:22

not going right. Something's going real sideways.

19:24

As opposed to just sticking with that

19:26

mode, which, and whether that's a phone

19:28

call, and if a phone call doesn't

19:31

work because it'd be interrupting them maybe,

19:33

then the voice note could be a

19:35

good play, and it shows you care

19:37

about them, understanding you, that you care

19:40

about them, because now you're putting more

19:42

effort into that. If I send you

19:44

a video, yeah, it may be annoying

19:46

to go through, but it shows that

19:48

I really care about you in the

19:51

process. So what you decide here relates

19:53

to your goals and the goals of

19:55

the other person. Is it about showing

19:57

you care and reducing this interpretation or

19:59

is it a... where productivity reigns supreme.

20:02

If it's a latter than you want

20:04

to do text. If it's a former,

20:06

you want to go richer. Got it.

20:08

And we talk about richness. By the

20:10

way, everybody, you're wondering why I put

20:13

this one out on a Thursday. It's

20:15

because this is one of the topics

20:17

all of you have asked me to

20:19

cover because I'm a communicator, yet I

20:22

felt like there's somebody I could go

20:24

back and forth with that just make

20:26

it a far more productive conversation. on

20:28

this topic. And so let's talk about,

20:30

we're going to go to Zoom and

20:33

we're going to come back to text.

20:35

I want to talk about HACS to

20:37

make Zoom more connected, more entertaining, you

20:39

know, so it almost feels in person,

20:41

any strategy of this Saturday I gave

20:44

a speech for a company, actually I

20:46

gave two, one in the morning and

20:48

one in the afternoon. The first speech

20:50

that I gave was a company, they

20:52

brought me on, it was just a

20:55

dry introduction, it was just a guy

20:57

at his computer, out his computer, He

20:59

basically dry introduced me and now I'm

21:01

just sort of talking into a camera

21:04

to 2,000 people that were on this

21:06

zoom. They also had the chat open

21:08

with comments, right? And that went okay.

21:10

The second one I did when I

21:12

got on, they were playing music, they

21:15

were ropping and rolling, they went to

21:17

split screens with people kind of dancing

21:19

and you know, doing like a real

21:21

live virtual event. There was an energy,

21:23

there was swagger to it, there was

21:26

context. They played a quick video of

21:28

me before they introduced me. I felt

21:30

like I was at an in-person meeting.

21:32

They also did not allow chat in

21:35

the meeting I noticed because they thought

21:37

that perhaps that would distract from what

21:39

I was saying. Like in a normal

21:41

meeting people are yelling out their thoughts.

21:43

Hey, I've seen this video. You could

21:46

read this, no one's doing that. So

21:48

they were very different meetings. The second

21:50

one in my opinion was far better

21:52

and I performed far better. Give us

21:54

some hacks to make zoom more of

21:57

in zoom is not the only one

21:59

I'm using zoom but virtual meetings like

22:01

this because you might not news him

22:03

you Microsoft whatever there's a bunch of

22:05

them so but what are some hacks

22:08

to make it more connected and less

22:10

distant. Video meetings, you want to make

22:12

them really engaging. I do a lot

22:14

of them, I'll do a lot of

22:17

talks for conferences and companies remotely, and

22:19

I teach them remotely as well, so

22:21

it's something I've thought about a lot.

22:23

And you want participants to be as

22:25

engaged as possible. So I'll start at

22:28

the end, chat. Chat. A lot of

22:30

people who normally don't speak up during

22:32

the meeting, who aren't heard, or just

22:34

they do speak up during the meeting,

22:36

but there's 20 people in the meeting

22:39

so they only get a chance to

22:41

talk once, they can engage more throughout

22:43

the meeting. The trick is being mindful

22:45

and like actually talking about what's appropriate

22:47

on chat or not, so you don't

22:50

have five conversations going separately. But it

22:52

may be useful because then people can

22:54

add in their thoughts more, and that's

22:56

one of the nice things about text-based

22:59

communication is. Everyone can talk at once.

23:01

And that's a lot more productive. You

23:03

have 20 people texting at once as

23:05

opposed to each one have to take

23:07

their turn. You're having a lot less

23:10

said in the latter one. I agree

23:12

with you. You just sort of changed

23:14

my mind about that because I've been

23:16

on other calls where other meetings where

23:18

they are texting and it's created energy.

23:21

It's spurn dialogue. It's engaged people who

23:23

may or may not have been engaged.

23:25

So you kind of just spun me

23:27

on that a little bit. I just

23:29

want to interject. Let's keep on that

23:32

topic for a sec. So if Brainstorming

23:34

is a related thing. Everyone loves being

23:36

in a room. There's a whiteboard where

23:38

jotting down notes. It's all really exciting.

23:41

One's that first one. In a meeting,

23:43

only one person can say an idea

23:45

at a time. So, you know, if

23:47

you want each person to come up

23:49

with 20 ideas, trying to say those

23:52

out loud in a meeting is going

23:54

to take forever, as opposed to people

23:56

are typing them. The other thing is

23:58

when we're sitting in a meeting and

24:00

someone's, your whole team's staring at. you're

24:03

nervous to say something that might really

24:05

diverge from the rest of them because

24:07

they're judging you, they're looking at you.

24:09

And then lastly is when they are,

24:12

when someone says an idea, your mind

24:14

gets stuck on it. And suddenly all

24:16

of your ideas that you come up

24:18

with are just variations of their idea.

24:20

Whereas when we're all typing this out

24:23

and doing it separately, the initial stages,

24:25

that does better. But when you're making

24:27

a decision on which idea is best,

24:29

then you want to meet. Because that's

24:31

a group consensus where you really want

24:34

to go back and forth there. So

24:36

that's the idea like where this relates

24:38

to brainstorming. But going back to engagement

24:40

now, what are some other things that

24:42

are good? So if we're using chat

24:45

and you want to give instructions about,

24:47

let's use chat for this but not

24:49

this. The other thing is you really

24:51

want to mix it up a lot.

24:54

When I'm doing talks, I often use

24:56

video clips. I'm using polls. I'm occasionally

24:58

calling on volunteers to do a couple

25:00

funny activities in the process because it

25:02

is easier to get distracted when you're

25:05

virtual. You've got your computer, you've got

25:07

your devices there. In person, if you

25:09

were to open up your laptop and

25:11

start looking at dinner recipes, that would

25:13

go over badly. When you're interacting via

25:16

video, it doesn't. They can't tell. So

25:18

finding ways to really mix it up

25:20

as opposed to just talking for an

25:22

hour is one of the best things

25:24

you can do there. This episode brought

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to you by Progressive Insurance. Do you

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Limited by state law. Not available in

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all states. So

26:00

anything you've seen me do online, Shopify's

26:02

probably been involved in it. I was

26:04

at a speaking engagement this weekend. There

26:07

were three other very prominent influencers there.

26:09

And each of them were talking about

26:11

how they use Shopify in their businesses

26:14

right now this day, just like I

26:16

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26:18

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26:20

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26:52

You mentioned earlier Smalltalk, and actually the

26:55

value of it is what you talk

26:57

about in the book. So in the

26:59

real world, Smalltalk is kind of, I

27:01

guess, Smalltalk, but I want to talk

27:04

about this with you too. So let's

27:06

assume it's not a virtual speech, but

27:08

it's a one-on-one meeting or with a

27:11

group. So when I do an in-person

27:13

podcast, the reason I prefer those. It's

27:15

not really that. I mean that is

27:17

part of it. But what it really

27:20

is is it's all the small talk

27:22

we have before we start recording. We

27:24

actually do small talk time about your

27:27

kids, where are you from? Oh my

27:29

gosh, your backyard, the look at the

27:31

ocean out here, whatever it is, oh

27:33

my gosh, your backyard, the look at

27:36

the ocean out here, whatever it is.

27:38

We were having, we're having the ocean

27:40

out here, whatever it is. We were

27:43

having small talk. on virtual meetings and

27:45

maybe give us you know an insight

27:47

as to how to utilize it or

27:49

when to ship also I've also but

27:52

on calls frankly where we've small talked

27:54

too long. You know, we're 23 minutes

27:56

into our 30 minute meeting and we're

27:59

like just small talking. So what are

28:01

your thoughts on that? Before I get

28:03

into the small talk, just to let

28:05

you all know my kind of view

28:08

on this, and it gets to one

28:10

of the things you said, in person

28:12

doesn't necessarily mean a better connection. Right.

28:15

If you think about the people you

28:17

interact with, who are you closer with?

28:19

The person you see for maybe three

28:21

hours in person once a month? or

28:24

the person you're sending a text message

28:26

to every day or every other day.

28:28

There, the frequency, you know, the three

28:31

hours in person is probably longer than

28:33

you spend texting once or twice, you

28:35

know, every single day, but that frequency

28:37

ends up being more important to the

28:40

relationship than just seeing each other once

28:42

for a long period of time every,

28:44

you know, so often. We need to

28:47

think about, well, what can we add

28:49

back into these less rich modes of

28:51

interaction to make them as good or

28:53

in some cases better than the other

28:56

mode? There was a research study of

28:58

negotiators and they found that compared to

29:00

in-person negotiators, text-based negotiators spent about a

29:03

third less time engaging in small talk.

29:05

And they didn't build as much rapport,

29:07

they didn't build as much trust, and

29:09

the text-based negotiators performed worse. Then what

29:12

these researchers did is they had a

29:14

different experimental condition where they had some

29:16

of the text-based negotiators do a five-minute

29:19

phone call. right before they went to

29:21

the text-based negotiation to what the researchers

29:23

called schmoozing. So they basically said, socialize

29:25

for five minutes, don't talk about the

29:28

negotiation, and then we'll move you to

29:30

text to negotiate. And what happened was

29:32

those text-based negotiators who smoothed for five

29:35

minutes, they ended up building more rapport,

29:37

having more trust. Their negotiation scores were

29:39

better, but not only that. Their joint

29:41

scores were better. The other person in

29:44

negotiation did better too because they found

29:46

more of those win-wins. The small talk

29:48

helped increase trust in reducing... that competition

29:50

that happens there, it made the other

29:53

person feel less anonymous too because they

29:55

knew about the other person. Now when

29:57

to do this or not, it's going

30:00

to depend on what is the primary

30:02

goal of an interaction. Is it building

30:04

relationships or is it productivity? Research shows

30:06

small talk cuts both ways. There's a

30:09

cost to it. You lose time, which

30:11

is why so many people hate it

30:13

often. But on the other side of

30:16

it, it builds trust. We trust what

30:18

we know. If we don't know what

30:20

someone's weekend, what they did on the

30:22

weekend, what their hobbies are about their

30:25

family, they're just this anonymous blob, basically,

30:27

and it's hard to trust what we

30:29

don't know, and small talk fills in

30:32

those gaps. And then that question about

30:34

what to do during meetings, it's really

30:36

useful to set agendas. And this is

30:38

good for especially virtual meetings that can

30:41

just drag on or go off topic.

30:43

And it's easier for someone in a

30:45

virtual meeting to talk for 20 minutes

30:48

and not realize no one's paying attention.

30:50

So actually having it saying, okay, five

30:52

minutes, we're just kind of, you know,

30:54

you don't say small a talk, but

30:57

say five minutes just to kind of,

30:59

you know, brief chat, I connect, yeah.

31:01

And then the next. 25 minutes will

31:04

spend five minutes on this topic, five

31:06

minutes on that topic, five minutes on

31:08

that topic, five minutes on that topic.

31:10

And it keeps everyone honest, so you

31:13

don't end up having an hour-long business

31:15

meeting with only about five minutes of

31:17

business. Okay, guys, what he just said

31:20

is huge. So one of the shifts

31:22

I've made this last year, because a

31:24

lot of the shifts I've made this

31:26

last year, because a lot of my

31:29

business now is virtual. or that they're

31:31

losing interest. You don't really usually get

31:33

that on Zoom. And so having everyone

31:36

sort of know this is where we're

31:38

going, that way we can pull it

31:40

back to the center. Most of you

31:42

don't do that. That's something you could

31:45

add that's a hack right now to

31:47

make those meetings more productive and frankly

31:49

last longer. One of the other things

31:52

I want to shift back over and

31:54

we'll come back to. over to like

31:56

text and email. You talk about in

31:58

the book, what does it mean to

32:01

overcraft communications? And how can people avoid

32:03

doing this? Because it's, I do it,

32:05

especially when a conversation gets heated, I

32:08

begin to overcraft my communication. So let's

32:10

go right there. Talk about that for

32:12

a second. If you've ever had that

32:14

experience where you're writing an email to

32:17

your boss or really important client, and

32:19

you've spent like. hours and hours just

32:21

writing, rewriting, editing the message, you understand

32:23

this idea of overcrafting and often you'll

32:26

send it off and then they'll send

32:28

back like thanks and you get like

32:30

a one-word response after you spend you

32:33

know three hours writing the single email.

32:35

And the problem with that is that

32:37

it really is bad for you first

32:39

off. Like it increases your anxiety, it

32:42

depletes you and my own research has

32:44

found this. And beyond a certain point,

32:46

it doesn't help. There's something which is

32:49

basically like a curvilinear effect, which in

32:51

plain language is there's this upside down

32:53

you in terms of email effectiveness. If

32:55

you spend too little writing an email

32:58

or whatever, it's going to be really

33:00

bad, right? You just, you've got typos,

33:02

it shows you didn't care, you wrote

33:05

like a really horrible email. But if

33:07

you spend too long on it, on

33:09

the other side, that can actually... worse

33:11

in the outcomes as well. If you've

33:14

been on the recipient side of one

33:16

of these emails, you can tell. It

33:18

like bleeds anxiety. You can feel how

33:21

anxious the person was. Their sentences have

33:23

like a lot of, if you don't

33:25

mind, I hope this is okay, they're

33:27

like, 10 paragraphs too many, and that

33:30

can make your email perform worse. So

33:32

in this situation, you are making yourself

33:34

more anxious and stressed, and you're not

33:37

having any benefit. So you want to

33:39

kind of hit that middle of the

33:41

middle of the curve where You made

33:43

your email look good, it's not sloppy,

33:46

there are no typos, but once you

33:48

start to get to the point where

33:50

you're realizing you're getting... and you're not

33:53

necessarily improving it, then stop. And the

33:55

one thing I'd like to point out

33:57

to executives and students when we're talking

33:59

about this, because they always feel like

34:02

their communication is the most important, is

34:04

there's something known as a spotlight effect.

34:06

And this came from some studies that

34:09

were done back when Vanilla Ice was

34:11

popular. So, you know, the Rob Star,

34:13

they had students wear a t-shirt, where

34:15

they had a big picture of vanilla

34:18

ice on it. And then they asked

34:20

them, how many other people that you

34:22

interact with during the study do you

34:25

think will remember your embarrassing t-shirt? And

34:27

they thought everyone was going to remember

34:29

their embarrassing t-shirt pretty much. But it

34:31

turns out very few people did. And

34:34

the reason this relates to email and

34:36

texting is that we all think our

34:38

email and our text messages are so

34:41

important because we're focused on ourselves. But

34:43

think about it from the other side.

34:45

If you're like me, you probably get

34:47

well over 100 emails, instant messages every

34:50

week. Do you remember anything about any

34:52

individual message you had or any individual

34:54

meeting? Chances are, unless someone did something

34:57

real crazy, you forgot about it by

34:59

the time you replied to the message.

35:01

So this self-focused is part of what

35:03

undermines our communication in that process. That's

35:06

really good. No, I don't remember any

35:08

of them. One weird thing I'll just

35:10

add everybody in my two cents. When

35:12

I get an email with a spelling

35:15

error in it, it reduces your impact

35:17

and makes me think that you weren't

35:19

paying attention or taking care. When I

35:22

get a text with a spelling error

35:24

in it, ironically, it doesn't bother me.

35:26

And I'm just, I don't know what

35:28

the difference is, why I'm that way,

35:31

but when I get an email, I

35:33

almost feel like email is a more

35:35

serious or professional way of a more

35:38

serious or professional way of communicating, That's

35:40

just me, maybe it's my age. So

35:42

if there's a spelling error or two

35:44

in there, I'm like, they didn't proofread

35:47

their email. But when I get a

35:49

text with the spelling error, and I

35:51

just keep plowing through, assuming they've done

35:54

it very quickly, almost like an email.

35:56

mail feels deliberate to me and a

35:58

text feels off the cuff to some

36:00

extent. Am I uncommon in that reception

36:03

or perception? Not all. There's these weird

36:05

norms that are associated with communication. So

36:07

we were talking about voice notes, for

36:10

instance. People who especially people are younger

36:12

now in the workforce, they see voice

36:14

notes as normal. It's cool. It's good

36:16

to use. But if you tell them

36:19

you're going to leave them a voice

36:21

now. So you're going to call them

36:23

and leave them a voice now. They're

36:26

like, that's horrible. That is like the

36:28

worst thing you could do. But voice

36:30

notes and voicemail are both asynchronous audio

36:32

communication. There is nothing technically different about

36:35

both of them, but voice notes cool,

36:37

voicemail, uncool. So we all have these

36:39

associations with different modes. Now, to the

36:42

typos thing, I did some cool research

36:44

with Haley Blunden over American University on

36:46

typos. We saw that, we had a

36:48

few findings from the study. The first

36:51

one's obvious. It's at typos on average

36:53

make you look less intelligent. But we

36:55

also found that typos can relay emotion

36:58

in communication. And it's not a specific

37:00

emotion. It's like sticking your fist up

37:02

in the air. If you're angry, they

37:04

make you seem angrier. If you're excited,

37:07

they can make you seem more happy.

37:09

They're amplifiers. But the third finding, which

37:11

is relevant to this conversation, is that

37:14

in the context of emotional messages... Typos

37:16

were penalized less insofar as intelligence. Because

37:18

people say, oh, it's the person who

37:20

was emotional. It's not that they weren't

37:23

less intelligent or they didn't care less.

37:25

There's this other reason. And there's other

37:27

research that shows that when you have

37:30

sent from my iPhone in your signature,

37:32

typos are penalized less. Because they know

37:34

it's due to the language differences. There.

37:36

We're searching for reasons in virtual communication

37:39

for why people did what they did.

37:41

So if you see a typo in

37:43

an email, you know, you may think

37:46

of them care about me. But if

37:48

there's another reason, it's like, I'm shooting

37:50

this off as I'm right, as I'm

37:52

walking to the office, but I wanted

37:55

to get back to ASAP. You might

37:57

see that typo then because they provided

37:59

that alternative reason as, oh, they really

38:01

care, they're rushing because they wanted to

38:04

get to me so quickly, as opposed

38:06

to they didn't care. which is part

38:08

of the reason why it's so valuable

38:11

to make sure that you're really explicit

38:13

with information virtually, because then you're not

38:15

leaving people guessing about why you did

38:17

something. They're not thinking, oh, they did

38:20

email because they don't care about me,

38:22

or they had a typo because this

38:24

wasn't important to them. It's about, they

38:27

wanted to get back to me as

38:29

quickly as possible, or they didn't want

38:31

to interrupt me by calling me. Giving

38:33

those alternative reasons can eliminate the downsides

38:36

of using these potential negative cues. I

38:38

make a lot of 30 second to

38:40

one minute long video messages that I

38:43

then text to somebody because I don't

38:45

use Snapchat. I feel that the difference

38:47

between in the morning texting a friend

38:49

going, hey, thinking about you, I love

38:52

you. Hope things are great. That's one

38:54

passive way to do it. The other

38:56

one is, hey, let's jump on a

38:59

zoom. That's a lot of work. But

39:01

for some reason I find when I

39:03

receive them too that someone somehow took

39:05

the time. I can see their face,

39:08

their spirit. And they've said something to

39:10

me. I mean this mainly on encouraging

39:12

messages or congratulations. A perfect example is

39:15

yesterday I met somebody who I've known

39:17

of for 30 years, but never met.

39:19

And we finally met yesterday. And then

39:21

when he left later that night, he

39:24

sent me a text that said, hey,

39:26

it was great to connect with you,

39:28

etc., etc., etc. Which was awesome. I

39:31

sent him back a video message. And

39:33

just said, brother, it was unbelievable connecting

39:35

with you. And I feel as if

39:37

my video back to him is far

39:40

more impactful than just his text to

39:42

me. You agree with that? In most

39:44

cases, I agree. So the higher effort

39:47

on average is going to show that

39:49

you care. Although now that you just

39:51

said this on your show, you're about

39:53

to get video messages from pretty much

39:56

everybody. You know, probably a lot, which

39:58

yeah, which you may begin to appreciate

40:00

less. You know, one of the things

40:03

that I talk about is that it's

40:05

often good to actually talk to the

40:07

person about how they prefer to communicate.

40:09

We often come in with assumptions of

40:12

interactions about, okay, videos best, or a

40:14

telephone call be best, or email be

40:16

best. But we never ask that a

40:19

person, what do you prefer? I'd say

40:21

99.9% of the media invites I get.

40:23

I get either video media invite, or

40:25

I get a telephone call invite, or

40:28

they just do it via email, and

40:30

they never say, hey, would you prefer

40:32

video or a phone call? And I

40:35

might have a really strong preference. Some

40:37

people have really strong reasons for their

40:39

preferences. So for instance, someone who has

40:41

difficulty hearing may prefer video because they

40:44

can help them read lips, for instance.

40:46

Someone whose kid is home sick from

40:48

daycare may prefer cameras off because they

40:50

may be running a muck in the

40:53

background. But even beyond that, some of

40:55

us just have our preferences. Like you

40:57

clearly love video. You know, you're sending

41:00

it to people. It may be true,

41:02

they may hate it. They may feel

41:04

self-conscious looking at themselves on the camera.

41:06

A lot of people get, like, they're

41:09

so concerned about their nonverbal behavior, they

41:11

overthink it, it's stressful for them. So

41:13

just asking the other person, saying, hey,

41:16

how do you want to do this?

41:18

You want to do a phone? Should

41:20

we do email? It has two benefits.

41:22

With the main one being, they're going

41:25

to want to interact with you more

41:27

in the future. And those two reasons

41:29

are one. You get to do it

41:32

on the terms they like, so they're

41:34

more willing to do it. And two,

41:36

it shows you care about them because

41:38

you're asking them what their preferences are

41:41

in those situations. It's really good. That's

41:43

really good. What about Zoom Fatigue? This

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42:52

I mean just overall companies got zoom

42:54

fatigue a person that does like what

42:57

are your recommendations it's it's it's it's

42:59

become the thing people a friend's in

43:01

mind what do you got to say

43:03

I got seven zoos you know and

43:05

it's almost become like things that people

43:07

truly dread you know and and I

43:09

think that's going to affect productivity I

43:11

think it affects your approach your energy

43:14

level your preparation level the results There's

43:16

a great book called Death by Meeting.

43:18

I think we're now having companies have

43:20

Death by Zoom, right? So what would

43:22

you say to a person leading a

43:24

group, a company, or even an individual

43:26

who's got Zoom and virtual meeting fatigue?

43:28

It's in the book, by the way,

43:30

everybody. It's a great segue to this

43:33

idea of we're staring at ourselves when

43:35

we get anxious. One of these drivers

43:37

of Zoom fatigue is we're staring at

43:39

ourselves a lot during the call. We

43:41

reckon this is a big question I

43:43

get, especially now from a lot of

43:45

executives. There's a few things. First is,

43:47

does this even need to be meeting

43:49

in the first place? There are so

43:52

many meetings that really should have just

43:54

been an email. You know, you got

43:56

one person relying information at 20 people,

43:58

and another 20 people aren't engaging in

44:00

the meeting. that probably shouldn't be a

44:02

meeting in the first place. The second

44:04

thing is how do we set up

44:06

our meetings? So research shows that shorter

44:09

meetings with fewer participants tend to be

44:11

a lot more engaging than these longer

44:13

meetings with more participants. So it's better

44:15

to have a couple of short meetings

44:17

spread out as opposed to one long

44:19

meeting because that's the length that really

44:21

gets disengaging. And lastly, the biggest question.

44:23

cameras on or cameras off. Right. Everyone

44:25

has strong feelings about this. You know,

44:28

there's some people say cameras must be

44:30

on every meeting. There are others who

44:32

say cameras must be off. You know,

44:34

it's no, makes no sense. And the

44:36

sides on this shows that it depends

44:38

on your goal in the situation. Cameras

44:40

are great for building trust, for showing

44:42

your, or for showing the illusion you're

44:44

engaged at least, because it looks like

44:47

you're paying a pension, even though you

44:49

may not be. And this gets to

44:51

this idea that we trust those that

44:53

we know. If we don't know what

44:55

someone looks like, we don't know their

44:57

mannerisms, it's harder to have that feeling

44:59

of trust because there's so much so

45:01

many unknowns. So video on can build

45:04

trust, it can make it seem like

45:06

you're engaged because it looks like you're

45:08

looking at the other person, even though

45:10

who knows what you have up on

45:12

your screen at the time. But there

45:14

is zoom fatigue and there's been a

45:16

whole bunch of studies that have shown

45:18

this effect That it can be tiring

45:20

being on camera and doing these kind

45:23

of meetings and turning cameras off reduces

45:25

the fatigue It reduces the stress associated

45:27

with those meetings and it can give

45:29

people more focus better productivity afterwards And

45:31

so if you're thinking about it this

45:33

way if it's an early stage meeting

45:35

you're meeting someone new or you showing

45:37

engagement is really important, you're going to

45:39

want your cameras on. But if you've

45:42

got an established team and one incremental

45:44

meeting is not going to build trust

45:46

that much more, because you've already met,

45:48

you know, tens or hundreds of times.

45:50

And you realize that just because there's

45:52

cameras on, it doesn't actually mean they're

45:54

paying better attention to you. Then in

45:56

those cases, having cameras off can be

45:59

better because it can save everyone that

46:01

extra energy. They don't have to spend

46:03

time getting camera ready. They don't have

46:05

to worry about how they're looking during

46:07

the meeting. Like as we're talking now,

46:09

if I was looking at my other

46:11

monitor, it looked like I wasn't paying

46:13

attention to you, which can really undermine

46:15

and create this extra stress with cameras

46:18

on, whereas cameras off, I could be

46:20

taking notes, I could be looking at

46:22

other monitors, I don't have to worry,

46:24

I don't, I could be looking at

46:26

other monitors, I don't have to worry

46:28

about what I'm, I don't have to

46:30

worry about, I don't, I don't, I

46:32

don't, I can be looking at other

46:34

monitors, I don't, I don't, I don't,

46:37

I don't, I don't, I don't, I

46:39

don't, I don't, I don't, I don't,

46:41

I don't, I don't, I don't, I

46:43

don't, I don't have to be looking,

46:45

I don't, I don't, I don't, I

46:47

don't, I don't, I don't, I don't,

46:49

I don't, I don't, I don't, I

46:51

don't, But not only when I'm engaging

46:54

with you do I expect you to

46:56

have your camera on, I expect you

46:58

to be looking into the camera, not

47:00

looking at your phone. Not, you know,

47:02

looking around the room, not getting up.

47:04

And the reason is I think that's

47:06

a sign of engagement and respect to

47:08

the person, not getting up. And the

47:10

reason is I think that's a sign

47:13

of engagement and respect to the person.

47:15

And I think we've lost a lot

47:17

of that in the speaker when I

47:19

do that. I think this is an

47:21

undisciplined company, or this is an undisciplined

47:23

person, or they don't respect me or

47:25

they don't respect themselves. Also the way

47:27

you dress, I get dressed for work.

47:29

A couple things, everyone, just nonverbal to

47:32

a guy like me. So if you

47:34

wanted to engage me as a client,

47:36

not as a friend, as a client,

47:38

or an investor, or a business partner,

47:40

and you show up to that call

47:42

dressed not professionally, it tells me you

47:44

don't respect me. You take the zoom

47:46

in your car as opposed to your

47:49

office. It tells me you don't respect

47:51

me. This just got squeezed into your

47:53

schedule. Can you imagine making a pitch

47:55

to a guy like me to invest

47:57

in your company and you're in sweat

47:59

pants? your car. I've had someone

48:01

do that multiple times to me and

48:03

I'm like, you have a zero chance

48:05

of engaging. If this is the president

48:07

of the United States, would you be

48:09

in sweatpants in your car? So

48:12

maybe I'm old school? But I gotta

48:14

tell you, you're probably gonna want

48:16

capital from a bunch of old

48:18

school people. And so to me,

48:20

that's etiquette in this world. Look

48:22

into the camera. Give nonverbal cues.

48:24

Encourage the person communicating.

48:26

Write. write notes down. As Andrew's been talking,

48:28

if you watch the Zoom, when he makes

48:30

a point, I write it down. One, I

48:32

want to remember it, but two, it lets

48:34

you and him know, I'm listening. And you

48:37

lose a lot of that in person. So

48:39

these are all really, really important things.

48:41

And it is the difference, in my

48:43

opinion, between winning and losing in Zoom

48:46

world. We only got a few more

48:48

minutes, but you talk about the different

48:50

levels sort of in the book of

48:53

richness of communication. and you know whether

48:55

it's email text phone virtual voice notes

48:57

videos etc. One thing I'm conscious of

49:00

is if I'm trying to upgrade

49:02

my connection with this person

49:04

upgrade my influence over this person

49:06

whatever it might be is I

49:08

will use the different versions of

49:10

communication to ratchet up the richness

49:13

so meaning I will try to

49:15

move them from text I'll give you

49:17

the perfect example. Someone just

49:19

bought a very expensive sports

49:22

franchise. and we have some

49:24

mutual friends, very expensive. And

49:26

so it started by a

49:28

connection with text, but I

49:30

want to know this person because

49:33

we have mutual business interest

49:35

together. I slowly started

49:37

to try to move that from text

49:39

to phone. as quickly as I

49:42

can because I not as quickly

49:44

but in an appropriate window of

49:46

time because I believe live phone

49:48

call is like the lost our

49:50

form of all time two humans

49:52

talking without the verbal without the

49:54

video excuse me just verbal talking

49:56

and so I'm cognizant of almost

49:58

moving up the pecking order if there

50:00

is one to phone call with somebody because

50:03

I believe that's the deeper connection level.

50:05

Do you sort of believe in that

50:07

strategy overall to use the different types

50:09

to eventually land to the one your

50:11

most and that phone call may eventually

50:13

to get on a zoom to do a deal?

50:16

Do you see what I'm saying? Do you believe in

50:18

that or am I like just crazy on that?

50:20

The more we get to know the

50:22

other person the better and this matches

50:24

a tremendous amount of research and studies

50:26

on the topic. Hearing the other person's

50:29

voice, it helps us humanize them. This

50:31

is why so many people engage in,

50:33

you know, flaming on the internet or

50:35

bullying on the internet is we don't

50:37

see the person, we don't hear the

50:40

person. If, you know, online I feel

50:42

fine making fun of you or ignoring

50:44

you. If you were talking to me in

50:46

person, if you asked me a question,

50:48

I wouldn't just turn around and walk

50:50

away and pretend like I didn't hear

50:52

it. No, moving up to those richer

50:54

modes gets us to know the other

50:56

person. So we build that trust, but

50:58

it also makes it clear there's a

51:00

human being over here. And it makes

51:02

your help feel more valuable to that

51:05

person. It makes us feel more connected.

51:07

It makes us care about the other

51:09

person more. So that's really useful

51:11

as early on in the relationship.

51:13

There's a theory called channel

51:16

expansion theory, and the key finding in

51:18

this is that if you know the topic

51:20

well, you know the technology well,

51:22

you know the person you're interacting

51:24

with well, the mode matters less. As

51:26

an example, if I get a text

51:29

or email from a stranger, there's a

51:31

good chance I'm going to misinterpret

51:33

what they're saying. But if I get

51:36

an email from my best friend or

51:38

my wife, I know exactly what they're

51:40

saying. I can read between the lines

51:42

because I have all that information to

51:44

fill in the gaps there. So the

51:46

mode matters a whole lot more when

51:49

you're early on in those relationships. But

51:51

later on, do whatever is

51:53

easiest, whatever works best, but

51:55

early on, getting richer definitely is

51:57

that beneficial. That's exceptional.

52:00

Yeah, all right, last question there. This has

52:02

been so good, so good. This topic

52:04

has to get explored more. What about

52:06

AI? How's it going to impact all

52:08

of this? And what do you recommend

52:10

to somebody in terms of using it

52:12

now? It feels like that would be

52:14

even, to me, almost more disconnected, but what

52:16

do I know? So AI is in the

52:18

book. I just want to give you the

52:20

floor on that to kind of finish.

52:22

Yeah, so AI and communication. My view

52:25

is for important interactions, you do want

52:27

to make sure the words are your

52:29

own. The reason being is 99% of

52:31

the time, so you may not know you're using

52:33

AI to communicate. They don't know

52:36

you're just typing something into chat-GPT

52:38

and pasting it or during even

52:40

a video call you're reading from a

52:42

script potentially. The problem is that 1%

52:45

of the time, or more, depending on

52:47

how good you are using it, they

52:49

may realize it because it uses words

52:51

you don't use. proficient or

52:53

elevate. Or maybe you talk to someone

52:55

about something in person or on the

52:57

phone. They talked about how their whole

53:00

family had a stomach bug the past

53:02

weekend and it was pretty horrible the

53:04

whole weekend. And then you copy and

53:06

paste an email and it said, I

53:08

hope you had a great weekend, exclamation

53:11

mark. And then it's clear suddenly that

53:13

you didn't write that email. And if

53:15

they think you used AI that one

53:17

time to communicate with them, they're going

53:19

to question every single virtual interaction

53:22

you've had with them in the

53:24

past and think, well, is it

53:26

AI? They've been using this whole

53:28

time. And then they're going to

53:30

question, if I am just communicating

53:32

with AI, why am I even communicating

53:34

with this person at all? What value

53:37

are they adding here? And you don't want

53:39

people to be asking that question

53:41

about you. All that together. It can

53:43

be great to use AI to brainstorm, to

53:45

edit, to make sure you don't have those

53:47

typos. It can be good for low-stakes

53:50

repeated interactions, but for those

53:52

really important ones, you do want to

53:54

make sure those words are your own,

53:56

because AI will never know everything that's

53:59

in your head. And so the are

54:01

the one who's going to communicate to and they're

54:03

going to be able to tell at some

54:05

point that it's not you that's behind that

54:07

screen. point that it's not you This was great. that screen.

54:09

This was so good. I hope this helped was

54:11

That's why I told you today I needed

54:13

someone to carry the heavy lifting on this

54:15

topic for me that knows more about it

54:17

than I do. And that's why you today. I

54:19

I'm on my own, but I wanted to

54:21

make sure Andrew joined us today on serve all

54:23

of you just on a higher level on

54:25

this topic because you've all been asking about

54:27

this topic. So So Andrew, thank you. you. job.

54:30

And that was Andrew Brodsky,

54:32

guys. The book is called The

54:34

book is of Successful Virtual Communication.

54:37

And you just got a little piece

54:39

of what you could get in the rest

54:41

of the book. So go get it.

54:43

God bless you, everybody. could get in the rest of the book.

54:45

So go get it. God bless you everybody.