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forward slash ed. That's growthday.com forward slash ed. Are

1:00

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or peeks down at it for

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a glance or just scrolls and

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scrolls? If so,

1:13

you could be the next person to

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get into a thunder bender. Get

1:17

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1:19

road or even cause a crash

1:21

that kills you or someone else. Enough

1:24

already. Put the phone away

1:26

or pay. Paid

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for by NHTSA. Are

1:31

you someone who tries to drive

1:34

while distracted by your phone? Someone who

1:36

props it on the steering wheel?

1:38

Or peeks down at it for a

1:40

glance? Or just scrolls and scrolls? If

1:43

so, you could be the next

1:45

person to get into a thunder bender.

1:48

Get a ticket. Veer off the

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or pay. Paid for

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by NHTSA. Hey,

2:11

everyone. Welcome to my weekend special. I hope

2:13

you enjoy the show. Be sure to follow

2:15

the Ed Milet Show on Apple and Spotify.

2:17

Links are in the show notes. You'll never

2:19

miss an episode that way. I was just

2:21

telling this lady off camera that her work's

2:23

really made a profound impact on me, even

2:25

in the last few days of my life.

2:27

Her name is Thais Gibson. So, Thais, welcome

2:29

to the show. Thank you so much, Ed, for having

2:31

me. I'm really grateful to be here with you. Yeah.

2:33

Let's step back just for a second. Tell

2:36

us what attachment style is. We'll get into

2:39

the four types in a minute. And

2:41

then also where it comes from. I was really struck

2:43

about this one parent thing that you talk about.

2:45

So what is an attachment style in general and where

2:47

does it come from? And then we'll talk about

2:49

what the ones are. Perfect. So our

2:51

attachment style is basically the subconscious set

2:54

of rules that we've learned about how to

2:56

give and receive love and really what

2:58

to expect in relationships. And I

3:00

often give people the analogy that if

3:02

you have a different attachment style than somebody

3:04

else, it's like sitting down to play

3:06

a board game and you have the rules

3:08

for Monopoly and I have the rules

3:10

for Scrabble. Like even if we want to

3:12

have fun and play the game, we're

3:14

just going to have unnecessary friction and confusion

3:16

because we have different rules. So our

3:18

attachment style, which first of all, every single

3:20

person has one, is the set of

3:22

rules that we've had for love. So when

3:24

we have different rules, it creates a lot of

3:26

problems and challenges. Three

3:29

of the four styles are insecurely

3:31

attached and that makes for some difficult

3:33

strategies and points of communication. So

3:35

there's a lot that we can really

3:37

improve there and become securely attached

3:39

and that will help create a lot

3:41

of transformation. Isn't

3:43

there the theory or your theory is that it

3:45

comes from some sort of dynamic with one

3:47

of your parents? Primarily. Am I right about that?

3:49

Am I getting that? exactly correct. So

3:51

basically, you learn how to give and

3:53

receive love through your parents as

3:55

a whole. Like those are our first

3:57

subconscious programs we develop in regards

3:59

to what love looks like, how our needs

4:02

are met, how our emotions should be

4:04

treated, how we should be spoken to

4:06

in relationships. All of that is modeled

4:08

to us at a very young age.

4:10

And the three ways we really pick

4:12

up programming from a very young age

4:14

are what we see repetitively or what's

4:17

modeled to us, what we hear repeatedly.

4:19

our firsthand experiences are. So those relationships

4:21

we have with our caregivers as children

4:23

really form that strong foundation for exactly

4:25

how we expect love and relationships to

4:27

go in our adult life. See,

4:30

I told you off camera, I

4:32

think the reason your work is

4:34

so profound, and this conversation today will

4:36

be everybody, is self -awareness

4:39

is such a powerful tool to have in

4:41

your life. By the way, my favorite people

4:43

that I like to have around me, I think

4:45

have a heightened self -awareness. They've done

4:47

some work on that. But the

4:49

reason this works contextually, what we're about

4:51

to cover everybody is you're really going to

4:53

begin to understand yourself so well and

4:55

why you feel or don't feel loved when

4:57

you're in a relationship. And it could

4:59

be an intimate relationship or a friendship. And

5:02

then also how to give it to

5:04

the right person at the same time so

5:06

that they can feel it. I've often

5:08

said on the show, not often, I've said

5:10

a couple of times that I think I'm,

5:12

and this is a confession that

5:14

was, I don't know. painful to admit.

5:16

But in my case, I think

5:18

I'm pretty good at giving love to other

5:21

people. You know, I think

5:23

in my life, I've been pretty good to my friends

5:25

and family. But I have struggled

5:27

to allow myself the gift of feeling it.

5:30

And I

5:32

want to more. And I think the last few years

5:34

that's improved to some extent, but you nodded when

5:36

I said that. Do you hear that often or do

5:38

you relate to that? I knew the moment you

5:40

shared about your childhood. So as I

5:42

had mentioned to you off camera, I had

5:44

seen some of your videos before doing

5:47

speaker training. And actually one ones I listened

5:49

to was a beautiful story about having

5:51

a parent who was an alcoholic. And basically

5:53

that's most likely to create a fearful

5:55

avoidant attachment style. And fearful avoidants are renowned.

5:57

This is actually what I was as

5:59

well before doing the work. Fearful avoidants

6:01

are renowned for. being very loving,

6:03

very giving, show up 10

6:06

out of 10 for people in times of crisis,

6:08

emergency, really good at rolling

6:10

with the punches, very resilient, but also

6:12

actually have a hard time truly being

6:14

vulnerable about the things that are deeply

6:16

vulnerable to them, specifically relying on people, letting

6:19

people in deeply, feeling like they

6:21

can really trust that somebody will always be

6:23

there for them. And so it's like you overgive

6:25

and under receive and that's very fearful avoidance.

6:27

So as soon as you said that, I was

6:29

like that. probably would be par for the

6:32

course. So that's why I nodded. Dawn,

6:34

you're right. I started to read your work. I'm like, yep,

6:36

that one's me. And by the way,

6:38

one thing she says, we're going to go through it

6:40

now too, that I love is this isn't necessarily a

6:42

static thing either. And so just, it's

6:44

so great. So let's, let's take

6:46

our time on this because I think

6:48

just this right here, if someone

6:50

could understand themselves or others. is

6:53

an invaluable lesson that will actually could alter the

6:55

direction of your life and the bliss that

6:57

you feel in your life, the joy, the love

6:59

that you feel. So what are the four

7:01

attachment styles? And take your time on each one.

7:03

And if you want to describe the behaviors

7:05

that go with them, because that's what helped me,

7:08

the style and then the behaviors, I think

7:10

everybody right now, if you're driving, you're going

7:12

to want to probably go back and listen to

7:14

this again, because you're going to want to

7:16

write this down. Okay, perfect.

7:18

So the first of four is our

7:20

securely attached style. And this is the one

7:23

that we ideally want to become. Because

7:25

as you've just mentioned, our attachment style, it's

7:27

not like a personality disorder or a

7:29

diagnosis. It's basically just a set of programs

7:31

that you have about love. So this

7:33

is something we can change. Now, the securely

7:35

attached style gets a lot of what

7:37

we call approach -oriented behaviors in childhood. And

7:40

approach -oriented behavior psychologically means

7:42

that when a child

7:44

cries or expresses emotion, caregivers

7:46

go towards that child

7:48

and they are very attuned, very present.

7:50

They are able to try to soothe

7:52

the child. I know that sounds like

7:54

it might be a small thing, but

7:56

it actually has a massive impact because

7:58

what a child learns growing up in

8:00

this kind of environment is it's

8:03

safe to express emotion. It's safe

8:05

to rely on other people. My

8:07

needs are worthy of being met

8:09

and listened to. And I can

8:11

really trust other individuals to look

8:13

out for me, to take care

8:15

of me. So securely attached individuals

8:17

grow up to essentially have really

8:19

healthy modeling and skills for relationships. And

8:22

as a result, statistically, they report

8:24

being in the longest lasting relationships. But

8:27

I'm sure we can both agree

8:29

that that's not what we would call

8:31

a thriving relationship per se. Securely

8:33

attached individuals also report being

8:35

happiest in their relationships. They

8:38

report actually feeling really happy

8:40

and fulfilled by the romantic

8:42

partner. So that's our securely

8:44

attached style. There are three

8:46

insecurely attached styles. At

8:48

one end of the continuum, in

8:50

a sense, there's the anxious attachment

8:52

style. Now, the anxious individual grows

8:54

up with a lot of inconsistency

8:56

in childhood, but often loving and

8:58

fairly present caregivers when they are

9:00

with that parent. So

9:03

generally what you'll see is an anxious

9:05

attachment style may have love and very

9:07

caring parents, but perhaps they work a

9:09

lot. So it's like love is there,

9:11

love is taken away. Love is there

9:13

and love is taken away. Now, neuroplastically,

9:15

we get conditioned through repetition and emotion.

9:18

So this will fire and wire these

9:20

deep -rooted fears of, okay, love keeps

9:22

getting taken away. Am I

9:24

going to be abandoned? Does this happen

9:26

with divorced parents too, where you

9:28

go to one loving parent to another

9:30

loving parent, or would that be

9:33

different? That would be an exact example.

9:35

So I'm just giving it one

9:37

example, but that could be one. It

9:39

could also be that we have

9:41

a very loving parent, but another parent

9:43

who's much more inconsistent or a

9:46

little bit withdrawn. So the juxtaposition of

9:48

love there, but not really there

9:50

in the same way. All of those

9:52

things would create the consistency of

9:54

inconsistency, which is that overarching theme that

9:56

will create an anxious attachment style.

9:58

So anxious attachment cells then grow up

10:01

to have these big core wounds

10:03

in relationships. They fear being abandoned, alone,

10:05

rejected, disliked, excluded. And they basically

10:07

cope with these fears by trying to

10:09

maintain proximity. So your anxious attacher

10:11

is often the person who will call

10:14

repeatedly, text many, many times, move

10:16

very fast in relationships, really

10:18

derive a lot of their sense of

10:20

self -esteem and self -confidence through their

10:22

relationships rather than through a relationship with

10:24

self. And they often will

10:26

get caught people pleasing a lot,

10:28

sometimes be boundaryless in relationships. And

10:31

of course, unfortunately, a lot of

10:33

these things become self -fulfilling prophecies.

10:35

So because they hold on so

10:37

tightly, they often accidentally push people

10:39

away. And exactly what they're afraid

10:41

of usually comes to fruition. I

10:44

can hear millions of people nodding

10:47

their heads right now. Thinking

10:49

about themselves. Starting to

10:51

explain yourself to you, didn't you? If

10:53

you were in that category, everybody. Okay,

10:56

please keep going. I just think this

10:58

is just so good. Thank you. And

11:00

at the other end of the continuum

11:02

is the dismissive avoidant attachment style. So

11:04

they're very much the opposite of the

11:06

anxious in many different ways. The dismissive

11:08

avoidance overarching theme from childhood is childhood

11:11

emotional neglect. Now, I think when

11:13

a lot of us think of neglect, we think of

11:15

like the child's left in the corner, there's no food

11:17

on the table. Oftentimes, I

11:19

would say 95 % plus of the

11:21

time, it's very covert neglect. It's

11:23

things like having, you know, parents

11:25

in the household, there's structure, there's

11:27

stability, food's on the table, kids

11:29

are at school on time. But

11:31

if you express an emotion. go

11:34

in the other room, come back when you're

11:36

done crying or don't be a cry baby, or

11:38

that's embarrassing. Don't cry in front of other

11:40

people, hold it together. And

11:42

the constant messaging, which creates that

11:44

programming, that repetition and emotion

11:46

that fires and wires those narrow

11:48

pathways, that constant programming or

11:51

messaging the child receives is your

11:53

emotions. They're dysfunctional. They're defective.

11:55

We don't really want them here.

11:58

Because a child is wired for

12:00

attunement, all of us biologically are

12:02

wired for attunement and closeness. A

12:04

child doesn't know how to make

12:06

sense of that experience. And

12:08

they don't go, oh, my parents emotionally

12:10

unavailable because they can't conceive of

12:12

that yet. So they go, there must

12:15

be something wrong with me. This

12:17

part of me must be defective and

12:19

shameful and wrong at the core

12:21

because it just constantly gets rejected. So

12:23

they cope or adapt to that

12:25

kind of experience by going, okay, I

12:27

am literally going to just keep

12:29

myself very distant from people emotionally, never

12:31

open up, never allow myself to

12:34

get seen or feel too much or

12:36

feel anything too real. Now,

12:38

as adults, the dismissive avoidant ends

12:40

up often being in a relationship.

12:42

Things are good early on. And

12:44

as soon as things feel too

12:46

serious, they often drop out, leave

12:48

very abruptly, sometimes blindside somebody. And

12:51

their big core fears and relationships

12:53

are I'm defective. Something's wrong with me

12:55

at my core. So they're very

12:57

sensitive to criticism, even though they're very

12:59

stoic and most people would never

13:01

know. And they also feel afraid of

13:03

being unsafe emotionally. If they're too

13:06

open, afraid of being weak, disrespected, not

13:08

capable. If they're vulnerable, they have a

13:10

lot of these deep wounds. And so they

13:12

often are individuals who struggle a lot

13:14

with commitment, with settling into relationships and with

13:16

wanting to really let people in and

13:18

allow them. themselves to be seen much at

13:20

all. So good. I'm just thinking of

13:22

somebody that I know very well right now.

13:25

What's great about the way you describe the

13:28

attachment styles is that everybody right now is

13:30

either so far thought of themselves or a

13:32

very close friend they know that fit one

13:34

of these attachment styles. I just want to

13:36

say one thing too, before we get to

13:38

the last one or the next one. I

13:41

know that the nature of your work, everybody

13:43

listening to this is sort of romantic relationships,

13:45

but I have to tell you all. When

13:47

I read this, I actually have

13:49

thought about friendships that I've had. I

13:51

actually think about business and leading

13:53

people and understanding the way in which

13:55

they respond or won't respond. I

13:58

think the application of her work

14:00

is very, very broad and understanding human

14:02

beings and how to affect them

14:04

and how to connect with them or

14:06

understanding why you're not connecting with

14:08

somebody. So but anyway, continue, please. And

14:10

to your point, I couldn't agree

14:12

more. This is because our relationships, it's

14:14

primarily for. the relationship to ourselves.

14:16

So that goes with us everywhere, but

14:18

you'll see these patterns popping up

14:20

absolutely in the workplace with friendships, family,

14:22

everything. So, so the last attachment

14:24

style, this is what I was. And,

14:26

and I'm sure this is probably

14:28

what you are from the sound of

14:30

it or work, but basically the

14:32

last attachment style is called fearful avoidant.

14:34

And sometimes it's referred to as

14:36

disorganized attachment style. And basically often the

14:38

example I actually give for what

14:40

will form a disorganized attachment style would

14:42

be an example of somebody having

14:44

a parent who's an addict or an

14:46

alcoholic. It can also be things

14:48

like having a really bad divorce and

14:50

being parentified. That was a lot

14:53

of my experience. Parents went through this

14:55

sort of 15 year divorce. I

14:57

was always in the middle of it

14:59

at a young age, lots of

15:01

chaos, lots of really big fights happening

15:03

my whole childhood. But basically what

15:05

this is creating in terms of programming

15:07

is I never know what I'm

15:09

going to get. Sometimes

15:11

I have these positive experiences with love

15:13

where sometimes love is safe and

15:15

it's okay and I yearn for it.

15:17

And so I care about love

15:19

and I want to connect. But other

15:21

times love is scary, unpredictable, has

15:24

moments of cruelty perhaps. And so what

15:26

happens with the fearful avoidant in

15:28

their childhood is they learn to have

15:30

these basically extreme competing associations about

15:32

love that are on opposite ends of

15:34

the spectrum. I want love. And

15:36

it can be really scary. Love can

15:39

be beautiful sometimes, terrifying others. And

15:41

so what happens for a fearful avoidant

15:43

attachment style is growing up in

15:45

an environment that's really unstable, unpredictable, chaotic.

15:47

They basically learn. I have

15:49

this anxious side and they share in

15:51

the feelings of the anxious attachment style.

15:53

They can fear abandonment. They can fear

15:55

being rejected or not good enough, but

15:57

they also share in the avoidance side.

15:59

They fear being too close, being trapped,

16:01

helpless, powerless in the wrong situation. And

16:03

so fearful avoidance basically are very hot

16:06

and cold in relationships. They're kind of

16:08

pinballing back and forth. And for me,

16:10

as an example, I grew up feeling

16:12

like. I wanted to be close to

16:14

people. I would be very loving and

16:16

generous and giving. And then when people

16:18

would get too close, I would be

16:20

like, get back. And oftentimes the fearful

16:22

wouldn't flip flops back and forth. And

16:24

a lot of this is because of

16:26

those deep inner wired programs from childhood

16:28

of, okay, love is good, but

16:30

love is also scary. And it can

16:32

create a lot of that sort of

16:34

internal push, pull and confusion, which of

16:36

course often shows up in external relationships

16:38

as a result. It's so great. I

16:40

have, you know, everybody, We're talking a

16:43

lot about childhood here. And the more

16:45

and more I've been doing the work

16:47

I do the last 25 or 30

16:49

years, the more I realize like the

16:51

vast majority of the work we're all

16:53

doing is connected to our childhood. Like

16:55

just the vast majority of our work

16:57

is those, I don't know, those years

16:59

were, you know, are from infancy to

17:01

10, 12, 15 years old and beyond

17:03

even teenage years. And I think the

17:05

more you dive into that work, the

17:07

more you are going to be an

17:09

effective parent, an effective human. an

17:12

effective friend, effective business person. You

17:14

say in the book, 95 %

17:16

of your thoughts and behaviors originate

17:18

in your subconscious mind. And

17:20

so basically our lives are sort

17:22

of on this auto kind of pilot

17:24

program. And then you also talk

17:26

about the subconscious reality lens. I'm

17:29

just curious as to what that term,

17:31

I think I know, but not everyone's read

17:33

the book. So what does that mean?

17:35

And why does it matter that we have

17:37

an appreciation or understanding of that? Yeah,

17:40

that's a great question. So we all

17:42

see reality through a filter of our past,

17:44

right? So I often give the example

17:46

that somebody could have the exact same external

17:48

experience. We could take, for example, an

17:50

anxious attachment style and a dismissive, who's the

17:52

more avoidant one. And they could both

17:54

be dating, let's say, somebody who doesn't call

17:56

them back. Well, the anxious

17:59

attachment style, because we see through

18:01

the filter of our past programming, it's

18:03

really the lens that we see

18:05

and interact with the world through. They're

18:07

probably going to make it mean

18:09

I'm about to be abandoned because that's

18:11

their past experience. Those are the

18:13

conclusions the mind will jump to. Whereas

18:15

a dismissal avoidant attachment style, they're

18:17

probably going to make it mean I'm

18:19

free. I don't have to talk

18:22

on the phone because they often fear

18:24

too much vulnerability, too much closeness.

18:26

So, you know, we never really have

18:28

these objective points. view, we're all

18:30

living through this subjective worldview that's first

18:32

being conditioned by and wired in

18:34

by our pre -existing programs from childhood.

18:36

Now, one thing that's really important to

18:38

recognize is that our mind is

18:40

also wired from a survivalistic perspective to

18:42

hang on to negative things much

18:45

more than positive things. If you

18:47

are walking through a forest tomorrow and

18:49

you see a bear and you run away

18:51

and you are safe, but the following

18:53

day you have to go back through the

18:55

same path. You don't think,

18:57

oh, yesterday I saw such a

18:59

pretty tree next to the bear

19:01

and there was such a pretty

19:03

flower on the floor. You remember

19:05

the bear and its teeth. So

19:07

we're wired to hang on to

19:09

more negative experiences, especially when they

19:11

impact us emotionally, because we think

19:13

that by holding on, we then

19:15

have a better chance to protect

19:17

ourselves from them. which is why

19:19

we hold on to our negative

19:22

experiences from childhood. And then to

19:24

keep ourselves safe, although it doesn't

19:26

happen emotionally, we constantly reproject them

19:28

back out onto our external world.

19:30

We'll jump to those conclusions. We'll

19:32

assume those same patterns will happen

19:34

with other people in relationships. And

19:36

that's often the actual place that

19:38

we end up sabotaging relationships from

19:40

if we have unresolved childhood attachment

19:42

challenges from a younger age. I

19:44

think you also, repeat

19:46

those patterns to stay consistent with yourself.

19:48

In other words, if I don't consistently do

19:50

this, I'm somehow not being the me

19:52

that I'm familiar with. And that's a scary

19:54

change in and of itself. Do you

19:56

agree with that? There's a lot

19:58

of research to back this. I actually

20:01

talk about this all the time. I couldn't

20:03

agree more. Our subconscious mind works very

20:05

hard to maintain its comfort zone because to

20:07

your point, it says, well, what's... is

20:09

safe and thus I'm more likely to survive.

20:11

And something that's so interesting is you'll

20:13

see when people meet each other. So our

20:15

conscious mind takes up to about 40

20:17

to 60 bits per second of data and

20:19

our subconscious and unconscious collectively take up

20:21

to a billion bits per second of data.

20:23

So we may meet somebody and be

20:25

like, you know, we're picking up all this

20:28

web of information about their micro expressions,

20:30

their body language, their tone of voice, how

20:32

long they may maintain eye contact for. And

20:34

people are often choosing people.

20:36

who will mirror back to them

20:39

their childhood as well because that's

20:41

what's most familiar so if you

20:43

look at an anxious attachment style

20:45

they're so externally focused they're

20:47

so people pleasing everybody else they're

20:49

dismissing and avoiding themselves so guess

20:51

who we often choose People

20:53

who mirror back to us the relationship

20:55

to self first, because that's what's most

20:58

familiar and that's most safe. And

21:00

so anxious attachment styles will often

21:02

choose emotionally unavailable people. Hence, that cycle

21:04

will continue for their likelihood of

21:06

being abandoned. Outstanding. I'm

21:08

thinking of one of the other

21:10

applications I want to ask you

21:12

about. So obviously you're in a

21:14

romantic or intimate relationship with somebody.

21:16

One of the things I was

21:18

thinking about this reading this yesterday. One

21:21

of the main questions I get, and

21:23

I bet you get too, is people

21:25

that are in relationships together, they'll say,

21:27

how do I get my spouse, my

21:29

boyfriend, or my girlfriend to support my

21:31

dream or this change I want to

21:33

make? And I started reading these different

21:35

attachment styles, and I'm like, well, if

21:38

you could really have an understanding of

21:40

the attachment style of your partner, that

21:42

would certainly help you understand how to...

21:44

help them support your dream, help them

21:46

support this business you want to start.

21:48

Do you agree with that? Like if

21:50

you've got an abandonment issue and somebody

21:52

says, I'm going to start a business

21:54

or start to pursue a dream. I

21:56

have to think part of their thinking is if you,

21:58

if you're successful, you're going to leave me. If

22:01

we just stay the way that we are,

22:03

you'll never leave me. And so one of

22:05

their, their real fears is. well,

22:07

if you start to win and change and grow, you're

22:09

going to leave me. And so if I knew

22:11

that, I would think if I was in a relationship

22:13

with that person, I would want to be overly

22:15

reassuring that I'm going to stay, that I'm going to

22:17

be here, that we're going to build this dream

22:20

together, that I'm doing this for us. Do you see

22:22

what I'm saying? Do you agree with that? 100%.

22:24

So a big part of what we focus

22:27

on actually in this work, and people hear it

22:29

in the book too, is again, to your

22:31

point, it's that each attachment cell not

22:33

only has these core fears, but they also

22:35

have these core needs. And

22:37

if you imagine, you know, if you've

22:39

ever heard of the work of

22:41

Dr. Gary Chapman, Dr. Gary Chapman talks

22:43

about the five love languages and

22:45

he says, okay, they are words of

22:47

affirmation, physical touch, quality time, acts

22:49

of service and gifts. No, I would

22:51

make a very strong argument that

22:53

our needs are much more impactful than

22:55

love languages, because for me. I,

22:58

for example, have a huge quality

23:00

time need or love language. But if

23:02

I sit down and I watch

23:04

Netflix with somebody for an hour, that's

23:06

going to be way different than

23:08

having like a deep conversation with somebody

23:10

because that meets the need for

23:12

emotional connection, for authenticity. And so, you

23:14

know, our needs, in my opinion,

23:16

have a much greater impact on the

23:18

ways that we give and receive

23:20

love in relationships. And what happens is

23:22

each unique attachment style has different

23:24

needs. So, you know, anxious

23:26

attachment cells, they need exactly like

23:28

you said, they need more reassurance.

23:30

They need more validation, encouragement, certainty,

23:33

consistency. Dismissive avoidance, they need

23:35

more freedom, autonomy, independence, but they

23:37

also actually really need empathy, support, and

23:39

acceptance, as well as appreciation about small

23:41

things. And fearful avoidance tend to

23:43

need a lot of depth. They need

23:45

novelty exploration. They need growth. They also

23:47

want this intimate connection and closeness, but

23:49

they also want their freedom and independence

23:51

because they sort of share in

23:53

both sides of that attachment continuum. So

23:56

I always tell people, like if we

23:58

had like a prescription for relationships, it

24:00

would be know each other. needs

24:02

and relationships. And then when we go

24:04

through these big life changes or transformation,

24:06

like you're building something, you're creating something

24:08

rather than somebody having to be like,

24:10

oh no, I want to stay

24:12

familiar and safe and accidentally sabotaging the

24:14

relationship as a result or having these

24:16

protest behaviors or ways of acting out.

24:19

It's like, well, if you know your

24:21

partner's needs, when we go through

24:23

big change, just pour into each other's

24:25

needs during those times. And it will

24:27

strengthen the relationship and also ensure that

24:29

you're growing together rather than growing

24:31

apart. So good. I was thinking, I'm

24:33

thinking about a lot of different things,

24:35

but one of them is, you know,

24:37

when you're understanding these attachment styles, your

24:40

own and that of your partner,

24:42

helps you understand where resistance can be

24:44

coming from. So oftentimes, what's the resistance

24:46

that I'm getting from them? Why don't

24:48

they want me to start this

24:50

business? Why is it they don't

24:52

want me to go do this? And

24:54

now you might have a deeper understanding

24:56

of... the reasoning behind, you know, not

24:58

only their behaviors, but if you understand

25:00

their behaviors and their needs, you understand

25:02

where this resistance coming from. I wrote

25:05

a term down just because I didn't

25:07

understand if it was different than what

25:09

I was reading. So this is just

25:11

for my edification. What is integrated attachment

25:13

theory? So integrated attachment theory is the

25:15

science of how we can actually change

25:17

to become securely attached. We're not stuck

25:19

with our attachment style. So it's actually

25:21

the study of these five major places

25:23

that we can do the work at

25:25

a subconscious level so that we can

25:27

become secure and have like the strengths

25:29

that came out of having an insecure

25:31

attachment style, because there are strengths. We

25:34

become resilient, resourceful, more empathetic, more compassionate

25:36

in a lot of ways, but also

25:38

have wired in those healthy patterns of

25:40

secure attachment. Can you elaborate on what?

25:42

some of those places are? Yes. So

25:44

the first one is we have to

25:46

reprogram core fears. So we all have

25:48

these core fears. Like we talk, we've

25:50

talked about the abandonment or the fear

25:52

of being trapped or defective or criticized.

25:54

And so we can actually, we're not

25:56

born with those fears. We can recondition

25:58

them through leveraging the science of neuroplasticity.

26:01

So repetition and emotion fires and wires

26:03

new ideas. And it's not through

26:05

something like affirmations. I'll sort of go

26:07

down a rabbit hole here. But

26:10

a lot of people will try to do

26:12

affirmations. So let's say somebody, for example, has a

26:14

core fear. I'm not good enough. You're

26:16

not going to really help yourself by saying I'm

26:18

good enough. I'm good enough. I'm good enough. I

26:21

think it's a little bit futile. And the reason

26:23

is because your conscious mind speaks language. If

26:25

I say to you, Ed, whatever

26:27

you do, do not think of a

26:29

chocolate chip cookie. Right. How

26:31

did that go? So

26:34

what happens is your conscious mind here

26:36

is do not, but your subconscious actually speaks

26:38

in emotion and in images. So

26:40

nobody's waking up. intentionally

26:43

having these core fears. Nobody's saying, oh, I'm going

26:45

to tell myself I'm not good enough 47 times today

26:47

and hope that I feel good. What's

26:49

actually happening is these are subconscious pre -existing

26:51

programs. So we have to speak to

26:53

the subconscious mind to solve for that.

26:55

So what I give people as an

26:57

original tool to recondition these core fears

26:59

that really are the big saboteurs of

27:01

our relationships. I'll be abandoned. I'm not

27:03

good enough. I'll be alone forever. These

27:06

huge things that wreak havoc on our

27:08

life and relationships is we start by

27:10

number one, identifying the

27:12

core fear and its opposite very simple

27:14

i'm not good enough i am

27:16

good enough number two we need 10

27:18

pieces of memory of times we

27:20

did feel good enough and the reason

27:22

we have memory and the reason

27:24

we picked 10 is because we need

27:26

a repetition for firing and wiring

27:28

and Memory is just container for

27:30

emotions and images. If somebody recounts their

27:32

favorite childhood memory, maybe it's them playing

27:34

on the playground. What do you see?

27:36

The images of the slide. As you

27:38

tell the story, you smile, your body

27:40

language shifts and changes. So now we're

27:42

using our conscious mind to speak to

27:44

our subconscious mind. Step three. We record

27:46

it for 20 and listen back to

27:48

it for 21 days because it takes

27:50

about 21 days to fire and wire

27:52

these new strong neural pathways. And as

27:54

long as we have like 10 pieces

27:56

of proof for how we feel good

27:58

enough or why we're worthy of connection

28:00

instead of abandonment or we're lovable instead

28:02

of unlovable or whatever the core wound

28:05

is that we're targeting, 10 pieces of

28:07

evidence, listen back for 21 days. We

28:09

will actually rewire these ideas that we've

28:11

carried about ourselves in relationships for very

28:13

long periods of time. So that's the

28:15

first one. So is reprogramming these core

28:17

fears. And I'm sure anybody listening, if

28:19

they're like, oh, 21 days, it feels

28:21

like a lot. I would really encourage

28:23

anybody listening to think of how many

28:25

times that core fear has actually sabotaged

28:27

your relationships. And it will always be

28:29

more work not to do the work.

28:31

It's a lot to have to live

28:33

like that. Yeah, you built those neural

28:35

pathways, probably doing it for 21 years.

28:37

You can spend 21 days trying to

28:39

undo it. Exactly. Exactly. And

28:41

it only takes like five minutes of

28:43

the morning routine or something. It's very simple.

28:45

So, so the second one is we

28:47

need to learn our own needs. And so,

28:50

you know, I mentioned those earlier, you

28:52

know, for some people, they need the reassurance,

28:54

the validation, the certainty for other people.

28:56

They need the autonomy, the acknowledgement, the independence.

28:58

So when we can go back and

29:00

actually see what our, our needs are, according

29:02

to our attachment style, we actually first

29:04

have to learn to meet them ourselves. There's

29:08

a great quote from Dr. Gabor Mate

29:10

and he says, trauma are the things

29:12

that happen that shouldn't have happened. Okay,

29:14

so let's say verbal abuse, for example,

29:16

which would maybe cause somebody to feel

29:18

I'm not good enough and we have

29:20

those core fears. But it's also the

29:22

things that didn't happen that should have

29:25

happened. So this could be if somebody

29:27

gets neglected growing up, we're wired for

29:29

attunement. So we will have these deeply

29:31

unmet needs that come from trauma, whether

29:33

it's small T trauma or big T

29:35

trauma. And because of

29:37

the subconscious comfort zone, because we want

29:39

to keep that subconscious comfort zone alive

29:41

in the relationship to self, we keep

29:44

those needs unmet in our own lives

29:46

first. So

29:48

you'll see like dismissive avoidance, they're neglected.

29:50

And what do they do? They grow up

29:52

and they neglect their own emotions. And

29:54

so, you know, we see this time and

29:56

time again for each person. So our

29:58

step two is after we reprogram core fears,

30:00

number two, we learn to meet our

30:02

own needs. In doing this,

30:05

if we can show up and meet

30:07

a need that's deeply unmet every day

30:09

for 21 days, we actually will change

30:11

that within ourselves. And then what will

30:13

happen is we will be attracted to

30:15

the right people who will mirror that

30:17

back to us. Because our point of

30:19

familiarity, our own subconscious comfort zone has

30:21

now shifted. So we don't keep attracting

30:23

those old patterns, those old people who

30:25

will keep that self -fulfilling prophecy alive. So

30:27

that's really step two, identify your deeply

30:29

unmet needs, meet them in relationship to

30:32

self for 21 days. Step

30:34

three, very simple, a little nervous system

30:36

regulation because every insecure attachment style

30:38

is often sitting too much in fight

30:40

or flight or parasympathetic nervous system

30:42

mode. So a little breath work in

30:44

the evening or a little meditation

30:46

on a daily basis, just something for

30:48

20 minutes a day to help

30:50

recondition our body. So it follows our

30:52

subconscious mind into feeling like it

30:54

is safe to be in our body.

30:56

It's safe to be more present

30:58

with ourselves. And again, it tends

31:00

to come full circle and giving to ourselves

31:02

those deeply unmet needs. Now,

31:04

those first three steps I like

31:07

to think of as being in

31:09

relationship to self. Okay. I'm doing

31:11

the work on me first. I'm

31:13

removing my core fears. I'm meeting

31:15

my own needs. I'm regulating my

31:17

nervous system. The second ones are

31:19

out into relationship with others because

31:21

healthy interdependency means I'm a master

31:23

of the relationship to myself. And

31:26

I'm a master at being able to

31:28

relate to rely on and be vulnerable

31:30

with others. It's not one or the

31:32

other. And so our second

31:34

two steps are communicating our needs

31:36

to others and allowing ourselves to receive

31:38

them and having healthy boundaries so

31:40

we can show and share our true

31:42

selves with other people. I

31:44

often say to people when it comes

31:47

to boundaries, when people don't set boundaries,

31:49

they're like, no, boundaries are off. They're

31:51

like a separation instead of a joining. But

31:53

a boundary is you sharing the no's

31:55

in your life. You're not connecting fully

31:57

or truthfully by just sharing all the

31:59

things you do like or that are

32:01

great. You also have to say, hey,

32:03

I don't like when this happens. Hey,

32:05

I don't like these things. Because that's

32:07

you sharing without your mask. And so

32:09

if we can do these five major

32:11

things and really connect in a real

32:13

way, way with ourselves first and then

32:15

with others. That's how we move the

32:17

needle from insecure to securely attached in

32:19

a fairly short period of time. And

32:21

it will transform the relationship we have

32:24

to ourselves and the relationships in all

32:26

aspects of our lives. This is so

32:28

good. Basic question. You

32:30

cover it in the book. By the

32:32

way, thank you for this. It's just, I

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35:19

short intermission here, folks. I'm glad you're

35:21

enjoying the show so far. Be sure to

35:24

follow the Ed Milet Show on Apple and

35:26

Spotify. Links are in the show notes. You'll

35:28

never miss an episode that way. And

35:30

really we're going to talk about today is

35:32

relationships. And not just your relationships with other

35:34

people, but also your relationship with yourself and

35:36

how it impacts other people. And the man

35:38

I have put in this seat today

35:40

is so unique and so special. He is

35:42

one of a kind. He's called the Angry

35:44

Therapist. Which if you meet him in person,

35:46

he's not so angry. John Kim. John,

35:48

welcome to the show, brother. First,

35:50

thank you for calling me a man. I appreciate

35:53

that. Yeah, I feel very

35:55

blessed to be here and to create a dialogue

35:57

for you. Yeah, so I'm really grateful you're here. All

35:59

right, let's get into it. We're going to get

36:01

into relationship stuff. Not just, I mean, a lot of

36:03

it's going to be boyfriend, girlfriend, significant other, whatever

36:05

you want to call it. But it's also the one

36:07

with you. Yeah, that's the most important. Okay, so

36:09

let's. And the hardest. So you say this thing, self

36:11

versus self, like uppercase versus lowercase. Let's just start

36:13

there for a second. What does that mean? Oh,

36:16

man. I'll

36:18

start with the book before

36:20

this was called I Used to

36:22

Be a Miserable F***. And

36:24

a true story. And in my 20s,

36:26

I was exchanging my truth for membership

36:28

a lot. I grew up in L

36:31

.A. And so I didn't have a

36:33

relationship with self. I was living very

36:35

outside in instead of inside out. And

36:37

it's really good that I wasn't

36:39

successful then because I would have been

36:41

the douchebag. It would have been

36:43

a very predictable story. I've got addiction

36:46

in my blood. Me too. But

36:48

yeah, I had no relationship with self,

36:50

no sense of self. And so

36:52

very approval seeking. And especially

36:54

when it came to relationships

36:56

and women doing whatever I could

36:58

to get the dopamine, to

37:00

get whatever it is, the sex,

37:02

the love, the approval. And

37:05

it wasn't until 35, went

37:08

through a divorce. And

37:10

at that point, I had nothing. I

37:12

lost my friends, had no money. I was

37:14

broke. I just went on Craigslist, found

37:17

a roommate. And I was

37:19

like, man, what do I do

37:21

from here? And I thought, okay,

37:23

I want to start living a

37:25

different life because I have nothing

37:27

to lose because I have nothing. What

37:30

would it be to actually now

37:32

start to? live inside out

37:34

instead of outside in? What would it look

37:36

like to maneuver more in my solid

37:38

self? So when people say self, the S

37:40

for me stands for solid. And what

37:42

I mean by that is we all have

37:44

a pseudo self. We all have a

37:46

solid self. And I got them tattooed on

37:48

my, these are all kind of

37:50

like bookmarks of, they're dog -eared pages of my

37:52

life, my tattoos. And if you've seen the

37:54

movie Fight Club, because I think it best

37:56

explains this. At the end, we realize, disclaimer,

37:58

I'm going to have to give away the

38:01

ending to do my point. But at the

38:03

end, we realize it's one person, right? So

38:05

there's Edward Norton and there's Brad Pitt. And

38:07

Edward Norton doesn't have a sense of self,

38:09

right? He's kind of like, you've seen the movie,

38:11

right? In the beginning, he's just buying IKEA

38:13

furniture and just like not sleeping, going to movies

38:16

and all that, meetings. And

38:18

that's his pseudo self. And then he collides

38:20

with himself, which is Brad Pitt. And

38:22

at first, there's resistance. Get away from me.

38:24

I don't want to have anything to

38:26

do with you. Through

38:28

that collision, he starts finding

38:31

his solid self. Yeah. And then

38:33

because of that, he finds

38:35

a movement. He's injected

38:37

with passion. He becomes a leader. He

38:39

gets to grow. All these things happen,

38:41

the whole character arc. Yes. And I

38:43

think we all have the Edward Norton

38:46

inside of us, and we all have

38:48

the Tyler Durden, I think was his

38:50

name. Yeah, so good. That's so good.

38:52

The self to me is the solid

38:54

self. It's what Marty Bowen in therapy

38:56

school. calls well maybe people

38:58

call it the authentic self you know

39:01

um but i i call it the

39:03

solid self do you think that let

39:05

me ask you about that that outside

39:07

in inside out is outside in meaning

39:09

you're trying to get external stuff to

39:11

give you a feeling yes so okay

39:13

yes um you're living uh based on

39:16

things that are outside of self instead

39:18

of living from a place of value,

39:21

character, you know, stuff that isn't on

39:23

the outside but that is internal. If you

39:25

don't have that, so by the way,

39:27

I told you guys, here we go. We're

39:29

three minutes in and it's already freaking

39:31

great stuff. But if you are an outside

39:33

-in living person, does that mean you're probably

39:35

going to have pretty hollow, empty relationships?

39:37

Or can you actually have an effective, loving

39:39

relationship if you don't even know who

39:41

you are? Oh, I think the relationship would

39:43

be lopsided because I think what you're

39:45

bringing to the table is the cardboard cutout.

39:48

instead of like the human three -dimensional,

39:50

right? And I think most of

39:52

my life, I was that cardboard

39:55

cutout. If you are pulling

39:57

from your pseudo self, which is the

39:59

false version of you. And by the

40:01

way, no one's solid. I

40:03

mean, you know. I hope not. Jesus, Buddha,

40:05

maybe. But like as humans, depending on who

40:07

you're around, like if you're around your boss,

40:09

you may be a little more pseudo. If

40:11

you're with your kids, you're going to be

40:13

solid. If you're with different friends and stuff.

40:15

But generally speaking. if you pull

40:17

more from your solid self, what you're

40:20

bringing to the table is uniquely you.

40:22

You're bringing your potential. You're bringing who

40:24

you are. You're bringing the acceptance of

40:26

your story. So a lot of pseudo

40:28

self people rip out chapters and they're

40:30

kind of false advertising and they pick

40:32

out the good parts of their story

40:34

and present themselves in a way that

40:36

is attractive. I certainly still do that

40:39

sometimes. I think I'm loving this. So

40:41

you do believe that it's a... I

40:43

think some people listening to this are

40:45

like, shoot, I still do do that.

40:47

You're saying everyone still does it a

40:49

little bit. It's to the extent or

40:51

the propensity you have to it. It's

40:53

when most of your days, most of

40:56

your weeks, you're pulling from your pseudo

40:58

self that you're at your lowest frequency,

41:00

that you're not bringing much to the

41:02

table. And so in that

41:04

relationship, you're kind of a shell. You

41:07

may be fancy. You may be funny.

41:09

You may be good in bed or whatever.

41:11

But your potential is low because your

41:13

humanness isn't there. And what

41:15

makes you unique is the solid self. How

41:17

do you do that? So, by the way,

41:19

you came to becoming a therapist late in

41:21

life. Yeah. I'm a late bloomer, man. At

41:24

35, I did my first squat. I

41:27

looked like a pigeon. I was the

41:29

guy with biceps and then no legs. You

41:31

know what I'm talking about. No legs. The

41:33

beach workout. Found CrossFit at 35

41:35

after a divorce. And

41:38

I was a screenwriter, a failed

41:40

screenwriter. Put

41:42

my wife at the time on a

41:44

pedestal. So I revolved around her. So

41:46

when the marriage ended, I had no

41:48

life, which is great because then you

41:50

start, it's a black light, right? Yeah.

41:53

It's like God says, this is what

41:55

you have. And so

41:57

I found fitness and I found CrossFit and

41:59

I was like, what is this? This

42:01

is back, this is 12, 13 years ago

42:03

when they were like flipping tires and

42:05

alleyways and stuff. I

42:08

was really interested in it, and then

42:10

I kind of got obsessed with it, and

42:12

it was always about challenging myself because

42:14

it was timed and dysfunctional movement, things I've

42:16

never done before. And that

42:18

became kind of my daily

42:21

ritual so I wouldn't fall into

42:23

depression. So your way out

42:25

of that, which for a lot of

42:27

people is too, was physiology, literally moving

42:29

your Yeah, that was one way in.

42:31

It was that and motorcycles. Okay. One

42:34

of the things that I tell people

42:36

is, With clients, they ask,

42:38

okay, so you got the pseudo and

42:40

solid. I need to connect to my

42:42

solid self. And the solid self is

42:44

usually the whisper. The pseudo self is the

42:47

thundering voice that's been programming, advertising, the

42:49

shoulds, followers, social media. It's very loud.

42:51

The solid voice is usually the quiet whisper

42:53

because we ignore, we don't listen to

42:55

our solid self. We don't listen to

42:57

our truth because we're scared to. So

42:59

stay there. You say this in your book

43:01

and in your content that you need

43:03

to listen to the quiet whisper. Yeah.

43:05

More so. Yeah. What does that look like

43:07

when you do it? Is it just

43:09

getting alone and turning out the noise?

43:12

Because this is profound, what you're about to

43:14

say. This is profound right here. I

43:17

think it's in the stillness.

43:21

When we talk about our truth, our

43:23

intuition, I think it's in our stillness,

43:25

because we're so not used to listening

43:28

to the quiet voice, that we have

43:30

to practice it until that voice then

43:32

becomes louder. And we trust that voice.

43:34

I think our relationship with self is

43:36

like any relationship in that it's built. And

43:39

when people say self -love, I

43:41

kind of feel like it's a

43:43

bumper sticker because it's like throwing

43:45

around a lot. Like gratitude, right?

43:47

And I get it. Of course,

43:49

self -love. But self -like, I think

43:52

that's harder, man. Because we love

43:54

family members that we don't really

43:56

like or we'd be friends with,

43:58

but they're family, so we love

44:00

them. It's a choice. But

44:02

liking someone is not a choice, right?

44:04

Like if I want you to like me,

44:06

that's earned, man. Yeah. You know, I

44:08

could say I love you as a brother

44:10

or as another human. Yes. I don't

44:12

know you. Yes. But then liking is earned.

44:15

And so when you apply that to

44:17

self, now enter the journey. And so when

44:19

someone says, oh, yeah, love yourself, that's

44:21

like, what, over the weekend? What do I

44:23

need to do to do that? That's

44:25

like a choice. Okay, I do love myself.

44:27

I choose to. You know, I'm alive.

44:29

I'm feeding myself. I love myself in that

44:31

way. But if someone says, like yourself, then

44:34

it's like, ****. So

44:36

that's where I started. Do I

44:38

like myself? What does that look like?

44:40

And then I fell into fitness and

44:42

bought a motorcycle and spent a lot

44:45

of time alone. Brother, you're

44:47

helping millions of people right now.

44:49

And the way you articulate this, I

44:51

have to tell you something interesting. When

44:54

I'm with a vulnerable person, I

44:56

become more vulnerable, right? Yeah. That's

44:58

why I love my show. I

45:00

think about the same age I started

45:03

to evaluate that. Oh, wow. About 35. I'm

45:05

51 now. By the way, huge work

45:07

in progress on these things as well. But

45:09

as I started to get to know

45:11

me even, so it didn't start with liking

45:13

me. It started like actually getting to

45:15

know me. I

45:18

found that my external relationships really dramatically became deeper.

45:20

And by the way, over time, once I got

45:22

to know me, I'm like, I kind of do

45:24

like me. What was the catalyst for you? So

45:26

for me, was divorce. What was it for you?

45:29

Success. Extra success, meaning,

45:31

okay, I did exactly what you

45:33

were saying. I'll get more money, more

45:35

accolades, more people know me, more

45:37

followers, more this, more successful friends, more

45:39

notoriety, more invites to cool parties,

45:41

more jets, more this, more that. And

45:43

I'm like, and I still am

45:45

not happy. And this is a game

45:47

I'm playing that is like, by the way, I've gotten

45:49

really good at this game. I got different than you

45:51

in the sense that I got good at that game.

45:53

Yeah. But it didn't produce what I thought it would

45:55

produce. So you had success early. So by the time

45:57

you were 35, you were. Yeah, I did some wealth

45:59

by the time I was 35 and came from none

46:01

of it. But I'll tell you what happened. I remember

46:04

one day I'm literally brushing my teeth. I caught a

46:06

glimpse of myself brushing my teeth. And I

46:08

realized in this moment, like, I never even look

46:10

at me. Like, I might get

46:12

ready to make sure I think I

46:14

look good. Right. But I'm never alone

46:16

with me where I just, like, look

46:18

at me. Who is this man? Well,

46:20

you're busy being successful. I was busy

46:22

being my pseudo self. Right, right. All

46:24

the time. Right. By the way,

46:26

a pretty nice pseudo self, a kind

46:28

person. I was a giving person. I wasn't

46:30

a mean person. I've always, you know,

46:33

I think I've been pretty good human, but

46:35

I didn't know me. Right. And I

46:37

remember just looking at me going, I don't

46:39

know that guy. I don't even spend

46:41

any time looking at me, nevermind being with

46:43

me or talking with me or enjoying

46:45

me. And it started, it

46:47

scared me. I'm like, I probably only

46:49

have one more of these blocks.

46:51

I don't have great genetics. So

46:53

I'm halfway. That's what I was 35. I'm

46:55

like, I'm halfway probably for me genetically. Now, now

46:57

I think maybe hopefully it goes longer than

46:59

that. But it's like, man, I don't want to

47:01

get out of this life with never knowing

47:03

me, never liking me. And

47:05

then really how deep are these

47:07

relationships I have if I don't

47:09

even know who I'm bringing to

47:11

the relationship. And so your work,

47:13

man, like really resonates with me

47:16

deeply. I think a lot of people,

47:18

this would be surprised to hear two dudes about our age,

47:20

you know. Yeah. I'm 49. Yeah. I'm a couple years

47:22

older than you, right? Well, if I was in Korea, I'd

47:24

be 50 because they count the time in your mom's

47:26

stomach. Do they really? That's why I don't live in Korea.

47:28

That's why I stay in LA. That's the

47:30

reason. Oh, okay. So a year younger. Yeah. The other

47:32

thing you said a minute ago, I want to go there,

47:34

is you were talking about how you put your first

47:36

wife on a pedestal. Yeah. You have something you said, bro.

47:38

that in your work that I just went, oh my

47:40

gosh, which you said that we are taught, listen to this,

47:42

everyone, you ready to go for like a moment, which

47:44

you're going to get a lot with John. You

47:47

said, we are taught that

47:49

love looks like codependency. Enmeshment,

47:53

codependency. So what is that? What

47:55

do you mean when you used

47:58

to believe that if you go

48:00

down, I go down with you.

48:03

If I go down, you go down

48:05

with me because it's romantic. And also,

48:07

you know, Disney movies, rom -coms, and that

48:09

feels, it just feels like love, right?

48:11

We're all in this together. Okay. And

48:13

now I believe if you go down,

48:15

I'll give you my hand, but not

48:17

my life. You know what

48:19

I'm saying? We are two different people in the image.

48:21

And I remember this so well. A lot of

48:23

people just heard that one. No, no, I don't want

48:25

that. I want that thing that I see in

48:27

the movie. Well, because it shoots more dopamine and it's

48:29

sexier, you know? The image that

48:31

I see for a healthy relationship,

48:33

I thought it was a yogurt ad,

48:35

but someone DMed me and said,

48:37

no, that was actually a Viagra ad.

48:39

And I was like, oh, okay.

48:41

But it was two people in a,

48:43

they're like in their 80s on

48:45

the Grand Canyon, you know, in separate

48:47

bathtubs facing outward. And the only

48:49

thing that was connecting them was their

48:51

hand outside of the bathtub. And

48:54

I remember coming across that in a

48:56

magazine and thinking, oh, this is what

48:58

a healthy relationship looks like. Because what

49:00

I would imagine is two people in

49:02

a hot tub on top of each

49:04

other, facing each other, you know? And

49:06

yes, that's sexy and that produces a

49:08

lot of dopamine. And that's kind of,

49:10

I think we've been brainwashed to believe

49:13

in the one and happily ever after

49:15

and all that. You believe the one

49:17

is BS. I do. I believe in

49:19

the one in front of you. I

49:21

think... And

49:23

you've been married for so long, so I

49:25

don't know how you feel about this. 25

49:27

years. Yeah. And I

49:29

think today that like doubles. It means

49:32

more today. I think you're right. But

49:34

when you're programmed to believe that there

49:36

is the one, I think the danger in

49:38

that is whoever you're dating, you're going

49:40

to bust out your checklist. And if this

49:42

person is the one and the one

49:45

for the rest of your life, man, they

49:47

better be perfect. And everything better check

49:49

off. And the sex must be mind -blowing.

49:51

And that's not, we're human, you know? And

49:53

relationships are hard. And so it puts

49:55

a lot of pressure and a blacklight on

49:57

the relationship. Now, if the one is

49:59

just the one in front of you, now

50:01

you're more present. And you're not thinking

50:03

if there's someone else in the world. that

50:05

is better for you or suited for

50:07

you you know what i'm saying yes the

50:09

one is always the one that you're

50:12

looking at well i actually think when you

50:14

have a belief that there's just the

50:16

one that when you meet them that potentially

50:18

you come across as desperate or needy

50:20

because oh sure one human now right and

50:22

i think sometimes people that are in

50:24

the dating circles don't realize that they have

50:26

an energy they're giving off that once

50:28

they think this person is the one if

50:30

you have that belief system yeah Potentially

50:33

there are multiple ones that would be

50:35

right for you, right? course. Not

50:37

everyone is right for you, but that when you

50:39

do have this belief, this is the only walking

50:41

human being on earth that will satisfy the things

50:43

that I need in my life. How can you

50:45

not come across as somewhat desperate when Well, you

50:47

get to do everything you can to... get this

50:50

person or make this relationship work right and then

50:52

by the way i think in that i want

50:54

you to talk about it because you're the therapist

50:56

not me but that probably fosters codependency oh yeah

50:58

absolutely i am i need you yes yes there's

51:00

a dependency and that's also when you go from

51:02

solid to pseudo you know i'm saying why why

51:04

do you have to go from solid because you're

51:07

not bringing uh your authentic self you're bringing a

51:09

self that is lined with desperation that is now

51:11

putting this person you know high up that

51:13

is now Going back to the hot tub with

51:15

two people on top of each other instead of

51:17

in their own separate bathtubs. And then also, if

51:19

you believe that this person is the one that

51:21

you're supposed to be with for the rest of

51:23

your life, what if it doesn't work out? What

51:26

if she leaves? You just

51:28

explained where most people find such misery, bro.

51:30

Yeah. Because they think they had them. Well,

51:32

also, then you also get controlling. You also

51:34

get jealous. All these other things, the shadow

51:36

sides come out if you believe. This is

51:38

the one person for you in this world.

51:40

But I think some people listen. So let's

51:42

go there because you know what they're thinking.

51:44

OK, they're thinking, yeah, but then how deep

51:46

is the connection if I don't go down

51:49

with you? When you say go down, I

51:51

assume you mean like maybe they've become a

51:53

drug addict or an alcoholic. Even you're like,

51:55

I'm supposed to ride this out with you

51:57

forever as you ruin your life and mine.

51:59

Right. So there is, you

52:01

know, I often think sometimes that with

52:03

my children, you have kids. That's

52:06

unconditional love. There's really nothing my kids

52:08

can do that's going to stop this

52:10

relationship with me. My daughter killed somebody.

52:12

I hate to say this, but I'm

52:14

probably helping her bury the body somewhere.

52:16

Yeah, no, I mean, all parents, right,

52:19

right, right. But other relationships, there are

52:21

conditions. There should be. There

52:23

should be conditions, right? Like, hey, if you

52:25

repeatedly do these things to me, that's

52:27

a condition that's broken. And I think sometimes

52:29

people go to this, the one thing

52:31

or this codependency thing, whereas. There are no

52:33

conditions. Right. And then if there are

52:35

no conditions, if there are no boundaries, you're

52:38

putting an awful lot of pressure on

52:40

that other human being not to push the

52:42

limits. Yeah. Don't you think? Yeah. Yeah. Vanessa,

52:45

my partner, says it in this book, and

52:47

I think we wrote it together. She says it

52:49

really good about co -dependency. That's her whole thing.

52:52

She describes it as, so

52:54

basically what's healthy

52:57

is if I'm okay

52:59

and you're not

53:01

okay, Of course I

53:03

could support you and stuff, but it's, but it's, it's okay. Codependency

53:06

is when you're not okay. That makes, that

53:08

makes me not okay. Yeah. If I'm not

53:10

okay, you should not be okay too. You

53:12

know what I'm saying? Very good. And that's

53:14

like the whole, like, I'll give you my

53:16

hand, but not my, it doesn't mean that

53:18

if you see your partner going through a

53:21

winter or a depression that you just, Oh,

53:23

that's not me. It's not that. Of course

53:25

you, of course you're helping your support. But

53:27

at what point do you, um, you can't

53:29

lose self or your life because. Because

53:32

then they're taking you hostage whether they know

53:34

it or not. This self thing is so

53:36

profound, bro. Because one, I think a lot

53:38

of us come into a relationship. By the

53:40

way, and again, I'm being transparent. I think

53:42

until I was about 35 years old. By

53:44

way, I'm still a work in progress on

53:46

it. But if you don't know who you

53:48

are, what do you bring into a relationship?

53:50

And then also this loss of self. When

53:52

we enter a relationship is a really dangerous

53:54

thing. One, I don't think that you're bringing

53:56

the vibrational frequency, the energy, the interesting things

53:58

about you. If you die in order to

54:01

be one in a relationship. Yeah. And it's

54:03

an interesting thing I wanted to explore with

54:05

you because I've watched relationships and of friends

54:07

of mine that were very loving. They were

54:09

two wonderful people that got together. They formed

54:11

a bond. There's us now, which I think

54:13

is powerful. But at

54:15

some point that us

54:17

eroded. me

54:19

and I, meaning that they were no

54:22

longer an individual. Right, right. They

54:24

meshed. They meshed. And ironically, that lack

54:26

of individuality, that lack of expression

54:28

of who one is, became less attractive

54:30

to the other person over time.

54:32

It's called false advertising because, you know,

54:34

it's funny because when you're single,

54:36

you're working on yourself, you're going to

54:39

the gym, you're doing all these

54:41

things and you're really doing everything to

54:43

connect to you. And then you

54:45

get into a relationship and over time,

54:47

you know, then it's the sweats

54:49

and, you know, people kind of like

54:51

let go of taking care of

54:54

themselves and all that. And I think

54:56

we have a responsibility when we're

54:58

in a relationship to continue the relationship

55:00

with ourselves. Or else it

55:02

is false advertising. Because when I

55:04

met you, you were this type

55:06

of person. And now we never

55:08

go out. You don't court me

55:10

anymore, which should be continuous, right?

55:13

You're not fanning the flames. All

55:15

the stuff that you were doing when

55:17

we started is now gone because things have

55:19

gotten too comfortable. And so

55:21

that's when it gets murky. And that's when

55:23

people start getting curious about other people. I

55:25

think you're exactly right. What about this idea

55:27

of thank you for being so good at

55:29

this? Because I think this is - don't if

55:32

I'm good, but - You're outstanding. Thank you.

55:34

And the way you express it is unique,

55:36

and it's why you're sitting here. Thanks. And

55:39

I know when I'm in a good one of these. I

55:41

know when I'm in something, and I'm like,

55:43

hey, this is special. You talk about different

55:46

attachment styles. Can you talk

55:48

about that a little bit? Yeah,

55:50

and I'll just go through three. There's

55:52

more secure attachment is, and attachment

55:54

styles stem from childhood and, of course,

55:56

starting with our parents. But there's anxious

55:58

attachment, and that is - you're

56:00

holding onto the person's leg instead of

56:02

their hand, right? That's like me. I

56:04

need the person to tell me that

56:06

I'm beautiful and that they're not leaving

56:08

and they love me and all that

56:10

kind of stuff, right? Lots of attacks

56:12

and connection. There's avoidant, and that's more

56:14

like my partner who runs the other

56:16

way, is not... is avoidant with intimacy

56:18

and hard conversations and vulnerability. We are

56:20

not that much anymore because we've done

56:22

a lot of work. I was going

56:24

to say, that would be pretty difficult.

56:26

Yeah, yeah, yeah. There's different extremes of

56:28

that. Sure. But if

56:30

we were to classify, that's where I come

56:32

from, that's where she comes from. And

56:35

then there's secure. And secure is, again, when

56:37

you have your own sense of self,

56:39

interdependence, when you are your own person, you

56:41

have your own opinions, you can say

56:43

no. You can say to your boyfriend how

56:45

you want him to go down on

56:47

you. You can express yourself. You can say,

56:49

no, I don't want tacos today. I

56:51

want pizza. And I know it sounds very,

56:53

very simple, but in relationships, we don't

56:56

do that. We actually start loving

56:58

the, because we think what love looks like

57:00

is loving the other person more than

57:02

us. Yeah. More than us. And because

57:04

that's what a good husband looks like. I'm

57:06

going to always put her ahead of, she wants

57:08

pizza, she's getting pizza. That's what

57:10

a man looks like. It's like, is

57:12

it? Or are you exchanging

57:14

your truth for love or for validation? Are

57:16

you exchanging something that, you know what I'm

57:19

saying? Yes. So now if that's the case,

57:21

are you giving or taking? Because if you

57:23

want something back from the person you're taking,

57:25

you're not giving. Oh my gosh. Giving

57:27

would be like, hey, I love you, but

57:29

today I want pizza. Is that what you

57:31

mean by choosing ourselves or is that a

57:33

little bit different? Yeah, I

57:35

think that also is

57:37

choosing yourself, meaning... Stand

57:40

on your truth and put action

57:42

behind what loving slash liking yourself

57:44

looks like. And I think some

57:46

people are good at that when

57:48

they're single, but I think when

57:51

they get into a relationship, when

57:53

love enters the picture, especially if

57:55

it's toxic, especially if someone is

57:57

needy or codependent or controlling or

57:59

all of that, the wheels fall

58:01

off. And it happens over time.

58:03

It's like the boiling frog, right?

58:05

It's a slow drip that can

58:07

still drown you. People

58:10

don't fall into toxic relationships when on

58:12

the date they sense all these red

58:14

flags and they're like, okay, I'm going

58:16

to invest in this person anyway. Usually

58:18

it's overtime five, six years in and

58:21

now they wake up one day and

58:23

they're like, I don't even know who

58:25

I am. Yes. I don't know who

58:27

I am. A lot of women and

58:29

mostly women than men from my experience

58:31

with working with clients wake up mostly

58:33

in their 30s and been with people

58:35

for five, 10 years and this happens.

58:37

And they're like, I have no sense

58:40

of I'm just here. I'm existing. I'm

58:42

not living. And just having

58:44

sex because it's obligation and they don't

58:46

know what to do. And they've really lost

58:48

like who they are. Okay, so like

58:50

5 million people just are going, oh

58:52

my gosh, you just described me, right? Yeah,

58:54

now what do I do? Yeah, right.

58:56

So what would be, you're going right where

58:58

I want to go. Well, it's kind

59:01

of like I think where I started, you

59:03

know, it's the hero's journey, man. It's

59:05

the call to, you know, the hero's

59:07

journey, right? The call to adventure and slaying

59:09

your dragons. I think

59:11

it's starting going back full circle to

59:13

suit over solid. What

59:16

is your solid self? And can you

59:18

start listening to that solid self? And it

59:20

comes in micro moments. It's not like

59:22

these big decisions, like, you know, life changing.

59:24

I mean, it can be, but it

59:26

can be something as like, hey, you know

59:28

what? Today, I'm not going to go

59:30

to work. I'm going to go to the

59:32

beach. It's a quiet whisper. But then

59:34

there's this giant should. Yeah, but you're this

59:37

and you're that. And that means you're

59:39

a lazy piece of whatever. And so can

59:41

you give yourself love, compassion, understanding? And

59:43

today, can you execute? what you want the

59:45

quiet whisper and actually go to the

59:47

beach can you give that to yourself without

59:49

the shame without the and it's going

59:51

to be really hard most people can't you

59:53

you start there and then you build

59:55

and then you build and you get to

59:57

a place where you start then able

59:59

to set boundaries to make choices and it's

1:00:01

also more attractive right and then you're

1:00:03

the people around you're like i'll have what

1:00:05

she's having yes Man, she's kind,

1:00:07

but she's assertive. And you know what

1:00:09

also happens? I'll have her. No,

1:00:11

really. What ends up happening is this becomes

1:00:13

a magnetic, attractive being again. Or maybe for

1:00:16

the first time. I so totally agree with

1:00:18

you. And it could be actually standing up

1:00:20

for what you want. Like, I actually want

1:00:22

tacos tonight. It sounds so trivial. It's so

1:00:24

silly. But it's in the mundane. Or actually,

1:00:26

honey, you're going to watch the kids and

1:00:28

I am going to the gym. Right. And

1:00:30

actually stand for yourself and do something caring

1:00:32

and loving for yourself. Right. And coming from

1:00:34

a not place, not a place of controlling

1:00:36

or getting back at anyone. It's coming from

1:00:38

your truth and it's coming from a place

1:00:40

of self love. You know, what is you

1:00:42

got this terms, man. What is repetition compulsion?

1:00:46

Repetition. I don't. I think my partner wrote that one. OK,

1:00:48

so that must be from your partner. I think what

1:00:50

it was is that you I think I want to go

1:00:52

there with it because I think it was like. repetitiously

1:00:54

falling into a pattern in a relationship where

1:00:57

like you have a compulsion to continue to

1:00:59

serve them in a way that maybe doesn't

1:01:01

serve you anymore. So actually, I'll make my own

1:01:03

term of it. Yeah, I love it. Let's

1:01:05

just say I'm right. I love it. I

1:01:07

think you're right. But I think that happens

1:01:09

intimacy wise too. We're like, there's something that,

1:01:11

and we're going really deep here. But like there's

1:01:13

something intimately that your partner really loves that

1:01:15

you don't enjoy, that you don't like. Right.

1:01:17

But you repetitiously do it as some compulsion

1:01:19

to serve them or maybe some verbal thing

1:01:21

you do or a particular behavior you have.

1:01:23

Maybe it's not even in an intimate way, but

1:01:25

it doesn't serve you. It doesn't make you

1:01:27

feel good about you. There's a way they

1:01:29

speak to you or you speak to them,

1:01:31

but it makes them feel good. So you

1:01:33

have this compulsion to continue to do it.

1:01:35

That's my version. Yes. So we all went out

1:01:38

to dinner the other night, me and like

1:01:40

four other therapists. My partner's a therapist. Our

1:01:42

friends are a therapist. And we

1:01:44

were talking, and I don't know

1:01:46

how we got on this topic,

1:01:48

but we were talking about how

1:01:50

women can go down on a

1:01:52

guy and actually, oh, as a

1:01:54

way to avoid sex. And I

1:01:56

was like, wait a minute, but

1:01:58

that's so intimate. And they're

1:02:00

like, it might be for men when men are going

1:02:02

down on women. But for women, they're

1:02:04

saying that, and these are all women, they're

1:02:07

saying it's easy, it's not intimate, and it could

1:02:09

be a great way to get out of

1:02:11

sex. And it blew my mind. And

1:02:13

they're like, yeah, and we've been doing it

1:02:15

for years. And I was thinking, so that's kind

1:02:17

of an example of a pattern that could

1:02:19

happen, right? If you don't want to be intimate,

1:02:21

where that's kind of how you take care.

1:02:23

And it shouldn't be happening because it's misleading. And

1:02:25

also you shouldn't be doing it if you

1:02:28

want to. But something like that

1:02:30

over the years, the pattern of

1:02:32

that is damaging, right? Yeah. And that's,

1:02:34

we're just talking about. Just

1:02:36

everyday stuff, you know? Yeah, yeah. That's super

1:02:38

interesting. And it shocked me because I was

1:02:40

thinking, oh. And then I started playing back

1:02:42

on my relationships and was thinking, how many

1:02:44

of them were just doing it because they

1:02:46

didn't want to have sex with me? Right.

1:02:48

Oh, my God. You look back

1:02:50

life. I thought they wanted to do it. Yeah. This

1:02:53

show is sponsored by BetterHelp. You know,

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Go to greenlight.com slash ed. That's greenlight.com

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slash ed to get started. Greenlight.com slash

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ed. That was

1:04:55

a great conversation. And if you want to hear

1:04:57

the full interview, be sure to follow The

1:04:59

Ed Milet Show on Apple and Spotify. Links are

1:05:01

in the show notes. You'll never miss an

1:05:03

episode that way. I reached out to this woman

1:05:05

to be on my show after I experienced

1:05:07

her work. And I haven't done that in probably

1:05:09

two years, I was telling her, I said,

1:05:11

I want you to come on my show. She

1:05:14

has a special out on Netflix right now

1:05:16

called Mom Jeans, which I've watched four times, including

1:05:18

last night with my kids, and we were

1:05:20

literally belly laughing, falling over. And I cannot wait

1:05:22

for this hour, because I want to know

1:05:24

you, and I want you to help a bunch

1:05:26

of people. So, Christina P., welcome to the

1:05:28

show. Oh, my gosh, thank you so much for

1:05:30

having me. You have two parents. The good

1:05:32

parent, who you speak highly of is... Who was.

1:05:34

This is the good one, by the way.

1:05:36

And so, as I understand it, you're the good

1:05:38

one, you're... has been married five times? Is

1:05:41

that right? Is it five? Well, you know, there's

1:05:43

a little factual fudging here and there, but,

1:05:45

yeah, a few times. Is he really married to

1:05:47

someone that much younger than him? Is that

1:05:49

actually a true story, or date someone younger than

1:05:51

him? Younger, yeah. I fudge a

1:05:53

little. Yeah, oh, everybody does in that space. Yeah,

1:05:55

it's for comedic purposes. But the gist of

1:05:57

it is, yes. Your dad was a player. Oh,

1:06:00

I mean... Well, yeah, I'll

1:06:02

give you the stats. So, um...

1:06:04

Parents are Hungarian immigrants. They

1:06:06

escape from communism, 1969. They get

1:06:09

married at 19 and 20.

1:06:11

And leave their country at that

1:06:13

young age. Can you even

1:06:15

imagine being like, I'm up, I'm

1:06:17

out. Let's escape. Escape

1:06:19

communism, bro. They go

1:06:21

to Canada. They

1:06:23

have me in Canada, and then

1:06:25

we moved to the U .S.

1:06:28

in 1980. By then, their marriage

1:06:30

has just dissolved because my mother

1:06:32

is mentally ill. She's a borderline,

1:06:34

but back then, nobody called it

1:06:36

anything. We didn't know it. And

1:06:38

she later became schizophrenic. And my

1:06:40

father is an alcoholic, obviously, to

1:06:42

deal with his... You know, they

1:06:44

had horrendous upbringings. It's not their

1:06:46

fault, right? They divorce, and then

1:06:48

it's me alone ping -ponged between my

1:06:50

mentally ill mother or my alcoholic

1:06:52

sex addict. Wow. Right.

1:06:55

But you know it. Because did

1:06:57

your parents stay together? Yeah. Ugh.

1:06:59

I'm not sure what's worse. Well, mine

1:07:01

was redemptive because my mom was well -adjusted.

1:07:04

My mom was there and was solid. The

1:07:06

reason I probably connected with you is

1:07:08

I picture your dad maybe not all that

1:07:10

much unlike my dad. And then I'm

1:07:12

thinking, though, if I didn't have my mom,

1:07:14

and then you having a probably even

1:07:16

more disconnected mother. Yeah. And I literally... I'll

1:07:18

be honest with you. I'm watching your

1:07:20

show. I want to make sure I do

1:07:22

a great interview with you today because

1:07:25

I actually feel like this can care for

1:07:27

you from watching you, which is a

1:07:29

comedy special. I've never laughed harder either. But

1:07:31

when you were speaking and doing your

1:07:33

show, I was picturing you as a little

1:07:35

girl. I was actually picturing

1:07:37

it with your mom and how scary

1:07:39

that might have been sometimes, seeing her

1:07:41

not be functional and normal and losing

1:07:44

her temper and stuff like that. Can

1:07:46

you tell us a little bit what

1:07:48

it was actually like? Now that you're

1:07:50

offstage, what's the real? I'm

1:07:54

still in therapy. Just to

1:07:56

let people know, I've been

1:07:58

in therapy for 12 years,

1:08:00

and then I feel like

1:08:02

just now I'm getting into

1:08:04

the actual trauma work, where

1:08:06

you feel the feelings of

1:08:08

terror that you had as

1:08:10

a child. And

1:08:13

I had terror and

1:08:15

fear because there

1:08:17

was no... There's no

1:08:19

safe place when you're like that, right?

1:08:21

So my mother would become, I remember

1:08:23

one time, she made these lunches for

1:08:25

me that I didn't like. It was

1:08:27

like Hungarian lunch, you know, like salami

1:08:30

with butter. And I take it to

1:08:32

school and I'm like, I don't want

1:08:34

to eat this. You know, everyone's making

1:08:36

fun of me because I'm a foreigner.

1:08:39

So I hide the sandwiches in the bottom of my book

1:08:41

bag because I can't throw them out because I feel

1:08:43

too guilty about throwing them out and getting in trouble. And

1:08:45

I can't tell her that I don't like the sandwiches. I

1:08:48

can't tell her, because she'll get mad. So

1:08:50

I hide a bunch... Eventually, I have a stockpile

1:08:52

of, like, 14 or 15... of my hands

1:08:54

are sweating to tell you this story. And I

1:08:57

hid them in my closet. Well,

1:08:59

eventually, the stench of 14 or

1:09:01

15 salami and butter sandwiches caught

1:09:03

up. And she found them, and

1:09:05

it was a rage. And it

1:09:07

was, like, you know, everything.

1:09:09

My anger. And then she kicks me out.

1:09:12

And that's the beginning of, like, kicking

1:09:14

me out to go live with my father.

1:09:16

And my dad's house... wasn't a

1:09:18

lot better. So that, you know,

1:09:21

because of alcohol and girls and

1:09:23

party and all that jazz. So

1:09:25

it's basically, like, I'm

1:09:28

betrayed everywhere I go, I look,

1:09:30

and I don't have a safe

1:09:32

place. And it's, uh, it's scary

1:09:34

and terrifying. What's your day -to -day

1:09:36

like, then? Are you always scared?

1:09:38

Always? Were you not a confident

1:09:40

kid? The reason I ask people,

1:09:42

you know why I'm asking you

1:09:44

this. millions of people

1:09:46

listening to this will be like, okay, there's a

1:09:48

piece of me in her. I really believe this

1:09:50

in life. If you really want to impress everybody,

1:09:52

just show them how perfect you are. If you

1:09:54

want to connect with people and help them, show

1:09:56

them your imperfections. And you and I both do

1:09:59

a really good job of that. So you're this

1:10:01

little girl, and I just picture you bouncing from

1:10:03

these two dysfunctional people. And with

1:10:05

no other even siblings to grab onto and

1:10:07

say, okay, they love me, they'll protect me.

1:10:09

Nothing. But you know who

1:10:11

I did have along the

1:10:13

way were sensible adults, teachers

1:10:15

that I liked and that I could speak

1:10:17

to. I had American... I say American because, like,

1:10:19

you know, I'm an alien in the sense...

1:10:21

You know this, too, as a child of an

1:10:23

alcoholic, you're an alien because you're different and

1:10:25

you know it, and you can't tell people at

1:10:27

school, like, what's going on at home, because

1:10:29

you know that that's a secret you must keep.

1:10:32

So I would go to my friend's house. I

1:10:34

lived at my friend's house. By the time

1:10:36

I was 12, I was out. Like, you know

1:10:38

what I'm saying? Like, the time I'm 12,

1:10:40

I have this epiphany that I'm alone. Truly

1:10:43

alone in an existential... Like, I was

1:10:45

a latchkey kid, so I was physically alone,

1:10:47

but I was an adult. I was

1:10:49

gone. So I would try to

1:10:51

stay at my friends' houses and get the

1:10:53

f***. But how did I... I'll tell you

1:10:56

what I did know at that age is

1:10:58

that my suffering... You know when you're like,

1:11:00

you know you're suffering, but you don't really

1:11:02

know as a kid. You don't know. It's

1:11:04

all you know. But I

1:11:06

knew that there was something inside

1:11:08

of me that was resilient. There

1:11:11

was some magic. Do you know what

1:11:13

I'm saying? Like, I would watch Pippi

1:11:15

Longstocking. Me too. Yeah. So did I.

1:11:17

Yeah. And it was like, because of

1:11:19

those characters, because of the

1:11:21

mythologies and the comic, whatever it

1:11:23

is, I was glomming onto stories.

1:11:26

I would, like, pretend to be that person.

1:11:28

Like, my life isn't this, I'm Pippi Long.

1:11:31

Isn't this fun that I actually turn it

1:11:33

into, like, I'm living with my single dad,

1:11:35

and he makes me eat on paper plates,

1:11:37

but I can cut my spaghetti with scissors,

1:11:39

because I'm Pippi Longstocking. Like, I turned it

1:11:41

into a fun thing. Yep, yep. You too?

1:11:43

Yeah, I think that, look, stuff's overset in

1:11:45

personal development. Everything's happening for me, not to

1:11:47

me. I don't know if I was the

1:11:49

first person to say that, or the third.

1:11:51

I'd like to think I was the first. But

1:11:54

sometimes that stuff's easy to say and hard to

1:11:57

apply. But I do think, like, I became really

1:11:59

resilient because of it. I became... I really, you

1:12:01

know, like in the business world, I've made a

1:12:03

lot of money. One of the ways I've made

1:12:05

a lot of money is like two things, both

1:12:07

of them because my dad was a drinker. One,

1:12:09

I've learned to be really... read people well and

1:12:11

be present with them. The reason was I had

1:12:13

to figure out when my dad was coming through

1:12:16

that front door, which one was I getting. Was

1:12:18

I getting the sober one who was gonna be,

1:12:20

okay, we're gonna have dinner and play basketball? Or

1:12:22

was it the drunk one and, you know, maybe

1:12:24

my mom and sister should go upstairs, so I

1:12:26

would read this man. And that,

1:12:28

I didn't know, Napoleon Hill says in Think

1:12:30

and Grow Rich. Love that book. Me

1:12:32

too. It's the second best book ever written

1:12:34

on personal wealth, other than The Power

1:12:37

of One More, which is sitting next to

1:12:39

you. Yeah. But in that book, he

1:12:41

says, on the other side of temporary pain,

1:12:43

you meet your other self. And...

1:12:45

met this version of me that

1:12:47

wouldn't have existed where I'm really good

1:12:49

at reading people and being present

1:12:51

with them. And then the other thing

1:12:53

I'm decent at doing is communicating.

1:12:55

So are you. And because I had

1:12:57

to learn how to talk to

1:12:59

my dad when he was in those

1:13:01

states so that I could change

1:13:03

him just a little bit or even

1:13:05

move certain ways I would move.

1:13:07

Little did I know that those two

1:13:09

things were forming this version of

1:13:11

me that I would use someday to

1:13:14

help millions of people. And I

1:13:16

watch you and I watch your ability

1:13:18

to have, like, insights into human

1:13:20

beings' behaviors, and how they move and

1:13:22

operate, how they think, and then

1:13:24

your ability to communicate. And I think

1:13:26

some of that's got to be

1:13:28

part of the blessing of going through

1:13:30

what you went through. Suffering. Suffering

1:13:32

makes you funny, makes you clever, makes

1:13:34

you resourceful. You know, everybody I

1:13:36

know, Ed, like you, um... Most of

1:13:38

the guys I know that are

1:13:40

hugely successful didn't graduate from Harvard. Yeah,

1:13:42

right. Me too. Were crappy at

1:13:44

school and had horrible upbringings. Isn't it

1:13:46

It's the secret sauce, isn't it?

1:13:48

It is. It is. But I think

1:13:50

for me, my father loved comedy

1:13:52

and good humor. So I was watching

1:13:54

Richard Pryor when I was... Little

1:13:56

and Aunt Eddie Murphy and Saturday Night

1:13:58

Live and Cheech and Chong. And

1:14:00

this was my education. And then the

1:14:02

truly tasteless joke books, I would

1:14:04

memorize those, because those would be in

1:14:06

the bathroom. And I would tell

1:14:08

those jokes to my father or to

1:14:10

my schoolmates at school. I would

1:14:12

go to school in, like, third grade,

1:14:14

and I would repeat these jokes

1:14:16

that are, you know, by today's standards,

1:14:18

completely verboten, right? Like, blonde jokes

1:14:20

and Jewish jokes and da -da -da -da -da.

1:14:22

I didn't even know what they

1:14:24

were, but I knew that people laughed.

1:14:27

And that's how I could get out

1:14:29

of stuff. And I also... I became

1:14:31

entertaining to my dad so that I

1:14:33

wasn't a burden. Interesting. You, um...

1:14:35

See, if you, right now, in the middle

1:14:37

of this, like, took a minute and went

1:14:39

over to YouTube and watched Christina, you'd see

1:14:41

this, like... I'm not saying it's a

1:14:43

compliment. You'd just see this very powerful, very

1:14:45

together, very... To walk out on a stage,

1:14:47

any stage, and to own it like you

1:14:49

do, there's a command. There's... There's something.

1:14:51

So I don't know if you've done a

1:14:54

lot of interviews like this. I don't think

1:14:56

you have. No, we don't talk. Comedians are

1:14:58

generally like, let's talk about our farts. Right,

1:15:00

but comedians are also usually pretty dark

1:15:02

people in real life, right? Would you agree

1:15:04

with that? I think that's one thing most

1:15:06

people wouldn't know. My friends that are super

1:15:08

funny or that do it for a living,

1:15:10

there's a... I guess I'd call it

1:15:12

a darkness or a pain or something they're

1:15:14

moving away from most of the time in

1:15:16

their life. Is that true? Well, here's the

1:15:19

deal. The funnier you are, the more you've

1:15:21

embraced the darkness, in my opinion. It's

1:15:23

the funny... The funniest ones are the ones... who

1:15:26

know it's there and don't push

1:15:28

it away. That's why, personally, my taste

1:15:30

in comedy has always been Bill

1:15:32

Hicks or Carlin or these guys. I

1:15:34

love Greg Giraldo. He passed away

1:15:36

from drugs. But these guys that could

1:15:38

really harness the darkness and go

1:15:40

there. I don't give a shit about

1:15:42

cookie. What's the difference between cookie

1:15:45

and cookie? I don't care. Shut

1:15:47

up. Tell me the

1:15:49

real. You know? So, yes,

1:15:51

but here's what I would argue

1:15:53

is that most people are dark.

1:15:55

Everyone has the shadow self, and

1:15:57

comedians aren't always afraid of going

1:16:00

there. But your accountant, your lawyer,

1:16:02

your dentist, guess what? They're dark,

1:16:04

too, probably. Only true. But you

1:16:06

haven't looked. You don't want to

1:16:08

peek. If had

1:16:10

met you at, like, 12,

1:16:13

who would I

1:16:15

be meeting? Oh, my

1:16:17

God. Yeah. Yeah.

1:16:20

Okay, you do you, though. You

1:16:22

do you, too, okay? Okay,

1:16:24

okay. Okay, so 12, I started

1:16:26

smoking cigarettes already. Okay. Started

1:16:28

wearing all black. You did.

1:16:30

I was already... School

1:16:32

was kind of not

1:16:35

interesting. I

1:16:37

want to hang out, smoke cigarettes,

1:16:39

listen to punk rock. I want to

1:16:41

go to nightclubs by 13, 14.

1:16:43

I'm in goth nightclubs. Really? Yeah.

1:16:46

Just kind of angry and confused. Go

1:16:49

back a minute, I'll tell you me. Is it

1:16:51

really true that you were in bars with your dad when you

1:16:53

were a little girl? That's actually true. That's a true part of your

1:16:56

act. Yeah, that part's true. 100%. Your father would

1:16:58

take you out to a bar at six, seven, eight

1:17:00

years old, and you would be dancing to white lines

1:17:02

in a bar. Is there some truth to that? Yeah,

1:17:04

it's all true. So that part's true, and that's why...

1:17:06

So I actually paid out of my own money to

1:17:08

license that Frankie Goes to Hollywood song. I

1:17:10

wonder at the end. I'm so screwed up, because

1:17:12

I know about all these things. I'm like, damn,

1:17:14

she must have paid for that to be at

1:17:16

the end, because that ain't free. I thought about

1:17:18

that last night. I paid so much money, because

1:17:20

Netflix paid for my crazy outfit, which is unfortunate,

1:17:22

and they paid for this New York City. It

1:17:24

was, like, huge, huge budget. And then I was

1:17:26

like, and I want Frankie Goes to Hollywood. And

1:17:28

they're the perfect ending. You guys

1:17:30

got to go see this. But so that...

1:17:33

I want to stay there. So I go

1:17:35

to... So my dad... My dad goes to

1:17:37

party. And, you know, back in the old

1:17:39

country, you don't... There's no babysitters. So his

1:17:41

dad would take him to the bar. I

1:17:43

imagine is what ha... That is what happened.

1:17:45

And so I grew up in bars and

1:17:48

nightclubs very early. So third grade, I've... actually

1:17:50

really fun memories as a kid going to

1:17:52

these bars and dancing and dancing to the

1:17:54

80s music, which is the best, dude. Like,

1:17:56

I really lucked out in that regard. And

1:17:58

I have a vivid memory of dancing with

1:18:00

sailors. And there's literally sailors. They're at Fleet

1:18:02

Week or whatever, and I'm this little girl.

1:18:05

And that song, Moni, Moni, comes on. And

1:18:07

do you know what the hidden chorus is? Hey,

1:18:10

mother effer, get effed. And here

1:18:12

am. Everyone yells it. Yeah, and

1:18:14

then I like, what? Oh, and

1:18:16

then I'm chanting it. But it

1:18:18

was fun for me. You

1:18:20

thought White Lines was a coloring book? I did.

1:18:22

I had no idea that it was about cocaine. I

1:18:24

was so little. But then I'd go to school

1:18:26

the next day, and I knew to keep it a

1:18:28

secret. You knew. So there's something you knew. This

1:18:31

sounds really corny, but I'm listening to the part

1:18:33

of your act. And like, I want to hug

1:18:35

this little girl. I also just picture you at

1:18:37

your age and me at that age and what

1:18:39

I was doing. What are you into at 12?

1:18:41

Well, at 12, I went the other way. Well,

1:18:44

first, if you had me at 12,

1:18:46

yeah. If you had me at 12, you

1:18:48

would meet a really shy kid. Really

1:18:50

shy, really introverted, no confidence whatsoever of any

1:18:52

type. But I was good at baseball.

1:18:54

And so I kind of went the other way.

1:18:56

I was more like straight lace, never got in

1:18:58

trouble. Was afraid

1:19:01

to become what I was seeing. in my

1:19:03

house. I was afraid. My dad was still

1:19:05

drinking when I was 12, so I kind

1:19:07

of became more like an athlete type, I

1:19:09

guess, but I wasn't like one of those

1:19:11

athletes where, like, I was a cocky athlete.

1:19:13

It was just the only thing I was

1:19:15

any good at. It was the only thing.

1:19:17

Like, it was the one place I went

1:19:19

where I was like, oh, I don't completely,

1:19:21

totally suck here. And no one was bullying

1:19:23

me there, right? You know, I would worry.

1:19:25

There was worries. Like, I would worry on

1:19:27

game days if my dad was gonna show

1:19:29

up to a game, and if he did,

1:19:31

was he drunk? If he was at the

1:19:33

game, was he going to say or do

1:19:35

anything? Sometimes I feel bad because I'm

1:19:38

describing these times and I know my mom listens to

1:19:40

my show and she's like, was it really that bad?

1:19:42

And I'm like, I don't know. Maybe it is worse

1:19:44

when I describe it now because it's all I knew,

1:19:46

right? Like it's all I knew. And my dad did

1:19:48

end up getting sober. And so there's like the reason

1:19:50

I'm in this, like you can change yourself space as

1:19:52

I watched my old man do it. Right. So I'm

1:19:54

like, I watched my hero do it. But probably if

1:19:56

you met me then, I don't even know that I'd

1:19:59

be that much different than I am now. I think

1:20:01

when people meet me now, they're like, I kind of

1:20:03

expected you know, I don't know,

1:20:05

you'd have more, uh, I don't

1:20:07

know, like, that front that people have that are

1:20:09

successful or whatever. I still am like, hey, man,

1:20:11

I'm working on myself, and there's certain environments I'm

1:20:13

comfortable in. You put me in front of 15 ,000

1:20:15

people on a stage, I'm completely at home and

1:20:17

I own it. You put me in a cocktail

1:20:19

party with, like, six or eight people, and someone's

1:20:21

right here, and I'm like, yeah, I gotta... I

1:20:24

gotta make the... go to the restroom. Like, I'm

1:20:26

constantly trying to avoid... You said... that Tom's a

1:20:28

little that way, but not. my husband's an introvert

1:20:30

like that, too. He's not the life of the

1:20:32

party. I think I'm a lot more fun at

1:20:34

a party than he is. think that's from the

1:20:36

bar experience? Seriously, like, you're used to being social?

1:20:38

Yeah, I love party. Yeah, and it's also cultural.

1:20:40

Like, we're Hungarian, so, like,

1:20:42

on Sunday, we have a party, everybody comes

1:20:44

over, you're telling dirty jokes, you're drinking,

1:20:47

you're awful... You know, it's like this... I

1:20:49

was never, like... shy as a kid

1:20:51

because my mother pushed me into acting when

1:20:53

I was four. So I was

1:20:55

like, yeah, I was auditioning and already kind of

1:20:57

a show business. And then I think around 10 or

1:20:59

11, I do like a pilot and then I'm

1:21:01

like, I don't want to be an actor. This is

1:21:03

for the birds. This is, I'm depressive. And that's

1:21:06

actually what I was going to share with you. So

1:21:08

by the time I'm 14, upside

1:21:10

down. This is when

1:21:12

I get super depressed because now, you

1:21:14

know, when you're messed in childhood,

1:21:16

guess what? It comes back in adolescence.

1:21:18

And now the drama, so I'm

1:21:20

14 years old, I'm goth, I'm cutting,

1:21:22

right? I'm cutting up my arms

1:21:24

just to feel some release, because I'm

1:21:26

so depressed. And I'm sitting in

1:21:28

the room, in my room, just to

1:21:30

try to hide from my parents

1:21:32

and the reality. And I, you know,

1:21:34

you're confused. You think you're being

1:21:36

dramatic. Like, is this really true? Is

1:21:38

my family this wonky? Or like,

1:21:40

I don't know. Am I, am I,

1:21:43

I must be messed up, because... You

1:21:46

know, like, I'm the one that's flawed.

1:21:48

So by the time I'm 14, I'm

1:21:50

convinced it's me and not them. And

1:21:52

I'm suicidal. And life

1:21:54

is, like, I have straight

1:21:56

Ds. I remember, like, I

1:21:58

just decided to stop going to school.

1:22:00

I just decided I was in ninth

1:22:02

grade. And I was like, I'm not

1:22:04

going anymore. And then I just stopped

1:22:06

going. I was like, no, thank you.

1:22:09

And I stopped going. And then I

1:22:11

had straight Ds, I remember. And I

1:22:13

eventually went back. And I was failing

1:22:15

out of school, and then one day,

1:22:17

I just went nuts in the bathroom

1:22:19

stall cutting, and I was just like,

1:22:21

whoa! And I just cut. I just

1:22:23

went crazy. And this friend of mine,

1:22:25

this girl I had been friends with,

1:22:27

but we had a following, whatever, like,

1:22:29

she found me, she took me to

1:22:31

the office at school. Oh, my God.

1:22:34

Yeah, so dramatic. And then my mom

1:22:36

came to get me, and she saw

1:22:38

my arms, and then she started to

1:22:40

hit me. I remember she beat me,

1:22:42

and I was like... Yeah,

1:22:45

and I was like, just put me in a

1:22:47

mental hospital. Like, I begged them. I'm like, put me

1:22:49

away. I think something's wrong with me. Put me

1:22:51

away. And my mother had

1:22:53

worked for a psychiatrist, and I think

1:22:55

she was worried about putting me in

1:22:57

a mental hospital or whatever, like, that

1:22:59

it would stigmatize me or mess me

1:23:01

up worse. So she was like, no.

1:23:04

I didn't see a therapist yet. She's like, but

1:23:06

do you want to go to Catholic school? And

1:23:09

I was like, yeah. I mean, she

1:23:12

showed me this brochure to this all -girls

1:23:14

Catholic school. And I was

1:23:16

like, yeah, okay. So I went to

1:23:18

the nuns, and I loved it. I

1:23:20

loved it, man. I had a mohawk

1:23:22

at the time, like an orange mohawk.

1:23:24

And I remember this nice head nun,

1:23:26

the principal, goes, listen, sweetie. She didn't

1:23:28

call me a sweetie. She goes, it

1:23:30

doesn't have to be the color God

1:23:32

gave you. It just has to be

1:23:34

a God -given color. I know,

1:23:36

so I dyed it brown, and I hid my

1:23:38

mohawk, and I grew it out. And I

1:23:40

could put my book bag down and nobody

1:23:42

would steal it. And by the time I

1:23:45

had graduated, I was like a leader of

1:23:47

this retreat, and I just flourished because of

1:23:49

the boundaries and the... It was an all

1:23:51

-girls school, too, so there was like, oh,

1:23:53

I don't have to be cute. I'm wearing

1:23:55

a uniform. I can just be a little

1:23:57

girl again. And I reverted, and I was

1:23:59

able to be safe. And that saved my

1:24:02

life. It saved your life. Catholic school saved

1:24:04

my life, yeah. Yeah, it's pretty amazing to

1:24:06

see your face right now. You

1:24:08

know, this is mainly audio. I wish everyone could

1:24:10

see your face. It's interesting to see

1:24:12

you talk about that time. Think

1:24:15

about your mom there for a second. So

1:24:18

she loved you. I mean, she was trying

1:24:20

with the limited... the capacity she had to

1:24:22

help her daughter there, right? I mean, did

1:24:24

that ever dawn on you? I mean, she

1:24:26

did love you, right? Yes, yes. Now, obviously,

1:24:28

too, a lot of what I say for

1:24:31

comedic, it's no good if they're shades of

1:24:33

gray. But I actually think you really feel

1:24:35

it. Like, I actually think you really... Let

1:24:37

me tell you what I mean by that.

1:24:39

I really do feel these things about my dad.

1:24:42

I feel guilty about feeling them because I

1:24:44

know that that wasn't his intent. It was

1:24:46

his... You feel guilty about having negative feelings towards

1:24:48

him? Yeah. I do, because I love him

1:24:50

so much. I know he loved me so

1:24:52

much. I've got to the other side of it

1:24:54

now where I can... And this is so

1:24:56

good for everyone listening to this who goes through

1:24:58

these things, but... I... I don't... I think

1:25:00

it's okay that I feel it. I feel

1:25:02

sometimes weird that other people know I feel it,

1:25:05

because I don't want them to think that

1:25:07

dad. You don't want them to judge him or

1:25:09

you? Both. Both. I don't want be judged

1:25:11

for feeling that way. And also, like, I

1:25:13

do know that my dad... Hurt people hurt people,

1:25:15

right? So I know my dad was operating

1:25:17

out of something that happened in his life. in

1:25:19

his upbringing, same with his dad, and so

1:25:21

on and so on. But I feel weird

1:25:23

about the fact that there's this man I love

1:25:26

so much, but that these things did happen.

1:25:28

I do feel this way. You know, I have

1:25:30

both feelings. I remember what it's like when

1:25:32

I didn't feel good about him, and I

1:25:34

remember what it feels like when I do. And

1:25:37

in your case, your mom was trying.

1:25:39

So when you went there, in Catholic

1:25:41

school, is that when you start to

1:25:43

change permanently, or do you end up

1:25:45

reverting back? Oh, okay. When do you

1:25:47

become you? So that's

1:25:49

a good question. So also, before

1:25:51

I go there, I love what

1:25:53

you say about having two simultaneous feelings.

1:25:56

And I think that's what you learn

1:25:58

in therapy, is that I can

1:26:00

love and hate my mom at the

1:26:02

same time. I can love and

1:26:04

hate my dad at the same time.

1:26:06

I can thank my mother for

1:26:09

all the wonderful qualities she had. She

1:26:11

was fashionable. She had flair.

1:26:13

She had timing. She was funny.

1:26:15

She was crazier than . You

1:26:17

know what I'm saying? Like, my

1:26:19

dad, too, is just, like,

1:26:22

funny, antisocial, brooding,

1:26:24

independent,

1:26:27

resilient. Like,

1:26:29

brilliant nut. Does it ever dawn on you, and

1:26:32

I'll let you keep going, that they end

1:26:34

up raising, I mean, because you're really humble, but

1:26:36

does it ever dawn on you that these

1:26:38

two people raised a daughter who now, I mean,

1:26:40

let's just be real, like, you're one of

1:26:42

the more, I mean, you're going to roll your

1:26:44

eyes when I say this, but... are one

1:26:46

of the more influential people on the planet in

1:26:48

terms of your show and your reach and

1:26:51

your husband and you. It's so funny. I don't

1:26:53

even feel that way. Yeah, I know you

1:26:55

don't. But do you feel that way? No, not

1:26:57

at all. But it's... It's ridiculous. But you

1:26:59

are. And so these two totally dysfunctional human beings...

1:27:02

No, really. Raise this single child together, right?

1:27:04

How? How, right? And then you end

1:27:06

up... I mean, it's just... I'm picturing you

1:27:08

cutting yourself. Yeah, it's terrible. These maniacs.

1:27:11

And I was... By the way, I went

1:27:13

through this stage where, like, I was

1:27:15

so depressed. I don't know if I was...

1:27:17

I just... I used to think, what

1:27:19

the heck is life about? Why am I

1:27:21

living this life? What is this? Is

1:27:23

this worth it at all? So that goes

1:27:26

into that. Yeah, and I... Did you

1:27:28

have that, too? Yeah, man. So the darkness.

1:27:30

So, okay, so hold on. Back where

1:27:32

you were just saying, how did they raise

1:27:34

someone? I'll tell you why. Because it

1:27:36

makes me sad because my parents are wildly

1:27:38

awesome people who had a bad go

1:27:41

of it, man. Could you imagine being born

1:27:43

in communist Hungary? No. It's after World

1:27:45

War II, so the country's already been ravaged

1:27:47

by the Germans, war, war, awful poverty,

1:27:49

and now the Russians come and destroy your

1:27:51

country. And it's a nightmare. They have

1:27:53

nothing. So I always think of them as

1:27:56

this pure potential. that just got destroyed.

1:27:58

So I know that they've got the makings.

1:28:00

Oh, but had they just had my

1:28:02

life. Damn it. I lucked

1:28:04

out. They had your life. So you lucked

1:28:06

out being raised by the two of them

1:28:08

compared to what they had. 100%.

1:28:10

100%. And here's another lucky thing

1:28:13

I had. Money. No,

1:28:16

we weren't rich. I'm not saying I was rich. get food

1:28:18

every day. You have to worry about where meals were coming

1:28:20

from and stuff No, not like that. We were like middle

1:28:22

class. And I think back in the 90s, there was a

1:28:24

middle class, right? Yeah. And I hate

1:28:26

when people poo -poo money. It makes me bonkers when

1:28:28

they're like, money isn't everything. That's not everything, but

1:28:31

it's awesome. Yeah, and the lack of it is

1:28:33

horrible. And it sucks being broke. Right, the lack

1:28:35

of it's horrible. Yeah, so it changes, so it

1:28:37

gives you to it. So the fact that I

1:28:39

was educated was a huge blessing. Now, I barely

1:28:41

eked my way into college, right? Barely got in,

1:28:43

man, but I did. And then once I was

1:28:45

out of the house, I was getting straight A's.

1:28:47

And I was like, oh, I'm not an idiot.

1:28:49

It's just that I was in this place that

1:28:52

I couldn't study because everybody was screaming and yelling

1:28:54

and it was a bad environment. And that's when

1:28:56

I found philosophy. So I started

1:28:58

studying philosophy. And that changed my life. And

1:29:00

that's when I was like, oh, I have

1:29:02

a brain. I'm not just like a screw -up

1:29:04

who tried to kill herself in ninth grade.

1:29:06

And I was always trying to outlive that

1:29:08

stigma of being a loser. Because my parents

1:29:11

were like, oh, you try to kill yourself.

1:29:13

It was like I disappointed everybody in my

1:29:15

family. My grandmother wouldn't give me money that

1:29:17

year for Christmas because she thought I was

1:29:19

going to spend it on drugs, which I

1:29:21

wasn't even really on drugs. You know what

1:29:23

I mean? So I was like this loser

1:29:25

in my family. So I found philosophy. and

1:29:28

I was getting A's, and I was like,

1:29:30

you know what? Screw you, man. I'm gonna

1:29:32

show you, right? Really? I'm gonna show you

1:29:34

I'm a winner. And then I got into

1:29:36

Oxford for a year. And I

1:29:38

went to study philosophy at Oxford. Yeah, man. What?

1:29:40

Yeah, as I'm telling you, so I went from, like,

1:29:43

loser -ville to, like, I

1:29:45

don't know what I'm gonna be, but I'm

1:29:47

gonna show you my dad. Holy . Wow.

1:29:49

Yeah, so I studied philosophy at Oxford. I

1:29:52

come back, and then I drew that show

1:29:54

Road Rules. I didn't know you did.

1:29:56

Yeah, a million years later. And then I was like,

1:29:58

wouldn't it be great if I could make a living

1:30:00

just myself? Flash forward to podcasting. But

1:30:02

anyway, I had this great boss after college. I

1:30:04

had this degree in philosophy and I was

1:30:06

such a useless degree. And he's like, you're the

1:30:08

worst employee I've ever had. His name is

1:30:10

Chris Abrego. Shout out to Chris Abrego. up, Chris?

1:30:14

Anna, you're the worst employee I've ever had, but

1:30:16

you're funny. Go do the Groundlings. I was

1:30:18

23. Come on. And then I went to the

1:30:20

Groundlings and I was like, this is it.

1:30:22

I found it. It's like when you find your

1:30:25

thing you're good at. Yep. You found sports.

1:30:27

Yep. And then I'm like, all

1:30:29

right, hey, man, maybe, you know, I'm an

1:30:31

idiot, I'm a loser, whatever, but this is

1:30:33

something I love. And once you get obsessed,

1:30:35

you know how it is? Like, when you

1:30:37

find your obsession, I don't care what it

1:30:39

takes, bro. I'm going to keep coming and

1:30:41

do this. Yeah. Put me in a motel

1:30:44

six. Yep. Okay. Like, yeah,

1:30:46

I'll do, you want me to go Afghanistan? Can

1:30:48

I do 15 minutes of stage time in

1:30:50

Afghanistan? Yeah, dude, I'll go. You did that? Hell

1:30:52

yeah, I did everything. You did. Well, I'm

1:30:54