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1:53

Hey everyone, welcome to my weekend special. I

1:55

hope you enjoy the show. Be sure to

1:58

follow the Ed My Let show on Apple

2:00

and Spot Thanks are in the show notes.

2:02

You'll never miss an episode that way. I'm

2:04

so excited about today because the woman sitting

2:07

across from me is the definition of brilliant.

2:09

And so Dr. Caroline Leif, thank you for

2:11

being here today. I'm very, very flattered, very

2:13

honored. Thank you. And I love talking

2:16

to you. It's always just. You're an

2:18

amazing interview. During those 63 days. Let's

2:20

do something practical. So now we kind

2:22

of understand what it looks like, how

2:25

it affects, how it gets wired, all

2:27

that other stuff. So let's do strategic

2:29

stuff now for a second, okay? So.

2:32

What is, you wrote this for how

2:34

to help your child, but when I'm

2:36

reading the work, I'm like, this is

2:38

helps humans, right? In general, but so

2:40

what is something, a strategy, you said,

2:42

awareness of the thought helps it lose

2:44

its power over you. I'm using my

2:46

description of it, right? So I've always

2:48

said that, now I know why. Yes.

2:50

Okay, what is something a tactic or

2:52

a strategy or a technique that somebody

2:55

can use for their child or themselves

2:57

that can help this in these 63

2:59

days that you would be proposing they

3:01

do? you do the five steps of the

3:03

neurocycle because what I did was strategically look

3:05

over the years at how can you actually

3:07

can't find the signals and do this whole

3:09

deconstruction reconstruction thing so you can't do in

3:11

one shot so you what you want to

3:13

do is do a neurocycle leave go which

3:15

is five steps and I'm going to and

3:17

I'll go through this in a moment but

3:19

you're going to do five steps in the

3:21

sequence. The first part of the sequence is

3:23

the first more or less three weeks where

3:25

you go through the five steps in around

3:27

45 minutes, not more and not less. Then

3:29

the second 42 days where you stabilize and

3:31

you just do it in five minutes. So

3:34

the five steps are basically gathering awareness. And

3:36

notice I say gathering. So it's a very

3:38

conscious and deliberate. It's not like a mindfulness

3:40

awareness, which this is beyond that. So when

3:43

we talk about mindfulness, meditation, breathing, decompression, all

3:45

of those are very important to prepare the

3:47

brain. So what you would do before you

3:49

dive into the neurocycle, and you'll see this

3:52

in my box and in my app, I've

3:54

got an app as well, called the neurocycle,

3:56

these are two to three minute brain preparation,

3:59

which is good. be anything from focusing

4:01

on momentum worry to doing a

4:03

7-10 breathing exercise. So it's something

4:05

to just get the neurophysiology under

4:07

control. Then you all could be

4:09

a meditation, a prayer, whatever. Then

4:11

you move into the actual work

4:13

and I'm about to slip off

4:15

this chair. And you move into

4:17

the, I get so into this,

4:19

into the work of gather awareness

4:21

step one. So gathering awareness is

4:23

a very specific process. Everything is

4:25

very specific process. Everything is really

4:27

layered. Your mind-brain-brain brain body. I'm actually

4:30

a psychoneurobiologist to study that connection, is

4:32

very ordered and sequenced and structured. And

4:34

if you want something to change, you've

4:36

got to follow the steps of the

4:38

order. So the neurocycle is a system

4:40

in that you can put CBT techniques,

4:42

you can put prayer, you can put

4:44

whatever works for you, but put them

4:46

in the right step. So when we

4:48

gather awareness, we are gathering apples of

4:50

a tree, we're not just randomly looking

4:52

at things, you'd very organized, okay, what

4:54

am I going to gather awareness of

4:56

my emotions? I'm feeling depressed, I'm feeling

4:58

anxious, I'm feeling frustrated, whatever. Just label

5:00

them. What am I related to that

5:03

emotion? What am I doing? What am

5:05

I doing? What am I saying? How

5:07

am I doing and saying them? So

5:09

maybe it's depression and maybe it's withdrawal.

5:11

Then the third thing is you're going

5:14

to say, how do I feel in

5:16

my body when I'm feeling depressed and

5:18

withdrawing? Maybe cardiovascular issues. part palpitating. And

5:20

then fourth category is how am I

5:22

looking at life in this moment? As

5:24

I feel depressed, gut ache and withdrawing,

5:27

I feel that life sucks. Very simple

5:29

example, those are four signals. So

5:31

you go, step one is together,

5:33

those four, step two is to

5:35

ask why. You're going a little

5:37

deeper, why am I feeling these

5:39

emotions? Now you're not solving the

5:41

whole problem, don't try and solve

5:43

it in one day, just go

5:45

as much as you can handle,

5:47

it's very draining. So that's why

5:49

I say limit. So why am

5:51

I having this depression? I seem

5:53

to be having it because of

5:56

it's happening a week, what a...

5:58

Am I having the same behaviors? Why am I?

6:00

getting that, why am I doing that with

6:02

drawing, how often am I with doing, what

6:04

other things am I doing, why do I

6:06

think I'm doing that? So you work through

6:08

each of those signals and try and get

6:10

some more. Don't stay too long on those

6:12

two steps and then you write. Now you

6:14

don't journal. You write, you dump, you literally

6:17

dump what you've gathered awareness of and what

6:19

you have reflected on. Because the first step

6:21

was to gather awareness, the second step was

6:23

to do this reflection thing. And then you

6:25

dump it down on, and literally in mind,

6:27

I just write it all over the page,

6:29

I've developed a system called the Metacog, and

6:31

for kids it's the bubble cog, and

6:34

it's basically riding in a way that

6:36

looks like a tree. So it's starting

6:38

from the middle and it's working around,

6:40

and it's working around, things either on

6:42

a line in a bubble if you

6:44

don't like doing that just write any

6:46

old way but try to write dimension

6:48

you don't do it in lines try

6:50

and just put it all over the

6:52

page because it brings in forces the

6:54

two sides of the brain to work

6:56

together creates a very strong connection between

6:58

the conscious and the subconscious through the

7:00

bridge of the subconscious. Yeah, and it

7:02

starts diving deep. I mean, it's like,

7:05

I can tell you now that when

7:07

I worked with patients that who had

7:09

symptoms of schizophrenia, this is an extreme

7:11

example, but just to show you how

7:14

all this works, we would have them

7:16

just basically metacog out, what all these

7:18

steps I'm going through, and they would

7:20

have one whole personality on this side,

7:23

and they'd continue the same conversation with.

7:25

unpack and find routes and things like

7:27

that. So it's phenomenal in getting insight.

7:29

Now you spoke about introspection

7:32

earlier on, introspection, insight, it

7:34

means diving into the depths

7:36

of the non-conscious. That's the most

7:39

intelligent part of us. So is writing

7:41

part of step two or is that

7:43

step three? So writing is step three,

7:45

sorry. Gather awareness, step one. Reflect, step

7:47

two, writing step two, writing up things

7:49

that are associated. Now that. these things

7:51

all over the page a lot of

7:53

it won't make sense things may shock

7:55

you that come out day one not

7:57

really but as you progress through the

7:59

days, more and more will come up.

8:02

And for example, around day seven, people

8:04

start saying, oh, I never saw this

8:06

connection. Day 14, like inside, inside into,

8:08

oh, that's associated with that. I didn't

8:10

see that. This is why I'm doing

8:12

this. So there's tremendous growth. If you

8:14

don't force it, you just go through

8:16

the cycle. I don't want to interrupt

8:18

you, but I want to ask you.

8:21

Go ahead. that you are uncovering some

8:23

of the things that might trigger you

8:25

as well? Totally. So step four, excellent

8:27

question. Step four is looking at what

8:29

you've gathered, awareness reflected on and written.

8:31

You look, what are my triggers? What

8:33

are the patterns? This has happened, what

8:35

can I do? So step four is

8:37

moving towards reconceptualization, reconstruction, healing, putting food

8:40

on the plant food on the roots

8:42

to heal them. It's leading to that

8:44

acceptance. You're not going to know why

8:46

someone wrapped a child. Why someone did

8:48

this, that's their story. But that's your

8:50

story. So you need to find out,

8:52

I'm not crazy, I don't have a

8:54

broken brain, I don't have a mental

8:56

illness, I'm showing up like this because

8:59

of... what happened to me. I can't

9:01

answer why I have to get to

9:03

a certain level of acceptance but at

9:05

least I know why it's not me

9:07

it's because of and that helps you

9:09

heal and move forward so it's very

9:11

progressive it's not walking in circles around

9:13

and around and around you know this

9:15

is where you can bring in things

9:18

like there's Osaka dynamic theory and ACD

9:20

or there's a lot of different therapy

9:22

techniques that people can bring in experiences

9:24

from MDR and into all these because

9:26

this is a system yeah into these

9:28

spaces This step is an action, act

9:30

of reach. So you're going to from

9:32

the triggers and end. things like that

9:34

you want to move towards an antidote

9:37

for today and action for today. So

9:39

what can I do today to keep

9:41

me in a safe space? I've done

9:43

the work for today. I'm not going

9:45

to fall back into working on this

9:47

anymore. I've got to get going through

9:49

the day and also your brain and

9:51

mind need a rest. They get tired.

9:53

So it's an action. It's like a

9:56

visualization, a statement, a combination, a little

9:58

pre, an affirmation. So this is where

10:00

you would fit an affirmation or a

10:02

something that you do and say, maybe

10:04

something as simple as, I can do

10:06

this, I don't know how, and then

10:08

visualize a rainbow. I mean, it could

10:10

be something as simple as that to

10:12

an actual little technique, or it could

10:15

be a breathing technique. So it's an

10:17

action that keeps you going through the

10:19

day, which helps you focus on the

10:21

fact that you are moving towards healing.

10:23

So you're removing energy from this thing,

10:25

because this process has brought this from

10:27

the non-conscious, When the non-conscious and conscious

10:29

are working together, then this is weakened.

10:31

The protein branch is the chemical. So

10:34

I can start restructuring and reorganizing. I

10:36

can tell you what I'm thinking when

10:38

you're doing this. Because this applies to

10:40

two different people. So everybody stay in

10:42

here. Okay. So those are the five

10:44

steps to sort of begin to rewire

10:46

yourself or change your brain. The other

10:48

part of me listening to this is

10:50

if you're... thinking I really don't have

10:53

a lot of these issues of anxiety

10:55

or worry depression. I also think that's

10:57

the formula to create a change. Like

10:59

if I had a goal and ambition,

11:01

I'd become aware of what I wanted,

11:03

right? I'd have all these reflections about

11:05

it. I would then write about it.

11:07

I'd have all these reflections about it.

11:09

I would then write about it. I

11:11

would then write about it. So, and

11:14

I'd then write about it. So, then

11:16

I'd think about what were the triggers

11:18

I need to create. could be walking

11:20

into my office, could be getting into

11:22

my car, it could be a particular

11:24

person. So I'd use that trigger to

11:26

then create that state. And then obviously

11:28

the fifth would be what's an action

11:30

that I can take towards this stuff

11:33

So that that cycle can be used

11:35

to uncover trauma You know reverse trauma

11:37

create brain health, but can also be

11:39

a creative process in order to change

11:41

your life So you are brilliant because

11:43

that's exactly where I started my research

11:45

38 years ago with people with traumatic

11:47

brain injuries and learning disabilities and people

11:49

that just wanted to improve their life

11:52

They just wanted and it's called brain

11:54

building so it's called brain building learn

11:56

so getting data in as opposed to

11:58

deconstrating. It was constructing. So it's taking

12:00

from the knowledge in education, in a

12:02

school, to learn for an exam. Or

12:04

what is the goal in your vision?

12:06

So that's the brain building aspect of

12:08

the neurocycles. This is huge right here.

12:11

I gotta tell you something because everyone

12:13

always wants to create change. They're like,

12:15

all right, do I get a vision

12:17

board out? Like, do I? So this

12:19

is a five-step process to actually do

12:21

it. And to do it reinforced. And

12:23

by the way, in 63 days. Exactly.

12:25

Exactly. Exactly. So share this with you

12:27

and maybe you can speak to why

12:30

it might work. So everyone asked me,

12:32

I don't visualize very well. Yes you

12:34

do, you just need to get quiet

12:36

and it's a muscle you build. You

12:38

know, when you decide to start visualizing

12:40

your life, it is difficult. But one

12:42

thing I've done is I've created, I

12:44

teach it to a lot of my

12:46

athletes is I use what I call

12:49

like a highlight reel technique. So what

12:51

I actually start with is I've never

12:53

said this on the show because it's

12:55

part of my private work. that are

12:57

highlights. So it could be, for example,

12:59

you know, the birth of my son,

13:01

the birth of my daughter, a home

13:03

run I hit in baseball, an award

13:05

I got, a sale that I closed

13:08

that was important. These are things my

13:10

brain are already familiar with, to your

13:12

point earlier. It's already been wired. I've

13:14

already repeated the emotion. It's already in

13:16

there. And so I see those things,

13:18

and those are easy for me to

13:20

recall because they're familiar. And then I

13:22

move to what I move to what

13:24

I want. Is there any data to

13:27

prove that that's true? Meaning, I'm already

13:29

visualizing what I've already, something I want.

13:31

I've seen an achievement. I've seen an

13:33

achievement. And then I see the one

13:35

that I want to achieve. And for

13:37

me, my brain more easily sees the

13:39

future. when I start with things that

13:41

I'm already familiar with in my past,

13:43

because I think we do that in

13:46

reverse. So if we've had a traumatic,

13:48

someone's hurt us in our life. We

13:50

see this, we repeat it over and

13:52

over, and then we then regenerate it

13:54

in our real life with the next

13:56

relationship. And that's why people end up

13:58

dating the same person over and over

14:00

again in a different body. Exactly. Right.

14:02

jumping out of my chair with excitement

14:05

because you've said exactly the correct thing.

14:07

So what you've just described, remember I

14:09

said a moment ago if you have,

14:11

I said, spoke about how I'll recall

14:13

this conversation because it's a great conversation

14:15

and I'll build it. That's what we're

14:17

talking about here. So you are recalling

14:19

these, you're calling those and you're using

14:21

those to unmask your natural resilience. Yes,

14:24

that's exactly right. So I actually call

14:26

these insurance policies. So they literally, so

14:28

when I work with a person, I

14:30

work with a person, an insurance policy.

14:32

So you should be spending time on

14:34

doing exactly that. So as you do

14:36

that, you activate a whole different way

14:38

that your energy flows across the two

14:40

sides of your brain. You go into

14:43

the highest level of intelligence, you unmask

14:45

resilience, you increase your wisdom, you tune

14:47

into the depths of your non-conscious where

14:49

intelligence, pretty much your intelligence resides. Because

14:51

your conscious is basically a workhorse and

14:53

it's guided by your non-conscious. So what

14:55

we've got to see is what is

14:57

dominant in the non-conscious. Now your non-conscious

14:59

is a gentle, is a gentle lady,

15:02

gentle man, and it's basically always looking

15:04

for the things that are blocking this

15:06

growing and keeping you stuck in those.

15:08

So it's on your side. But you

15:10

have to tune in to what's coming

15:12

up. So when you want to do

15:14

something difficult, you first think of something

15:16

good. What you've done is you've listened

15:18

to wisdom from your non-conscious, which is

15:20

that process. off in a highly intelligent

15:23

wire state. Now you're in a state

15:25

that's more able to cope with that.

15:27

So when I work with a patient,

15:29

for example, I would never start with

15:31

that. I would say, okay, let's talk

15:33

about, you know, your favorite moments or

15:35

you'll tell me a story about, tell

15:37

me a story about, tell me a

15:39

great movie. You know, let's talk about

15:42

a great book, anything, and then you

15:44

would focus on that. When they were

15:46

in that state, I knew that I

15:48

had got their mind-brain-brain-brain-brain-brain connection, their psycho

15:50

in your creates a neurochemistry to which

15:52

I can create. That's exactly what you

15:54

do. Yes, you have. You've changed all

15:56

the flow. These change, they increase gamma,

15:58

which is... which is a way that

16:01

you want to flow. And when your

16:03

eyes are open, you want like what

16:05

we call low gamma across the whole

16:07

brain. And then there's certain other patterns.

16:09

I don't want to go into the

16:11

detail. And that's going to have a

16:13

certain beta pattern and so on. Those

16:15

energy waves, when they are flowing in

16:17

that state, they activate the different parts

16:20

of the brain to then be on

16:22

high alert to respond and do what

16:24

they designed to do, which then impacts

16:26

your neurochemistry. Endocrine system, you'll call it,

16:28

everything then comes together and you are in

16:30

this prime state. Your HPAA axis is now on

16:32

high alert and you now are in the ideal

16:34

state for solution finding. This is so good.

16:37

You guys, this is why I do the

16:39

show right here. So let me just give

16:41

you this again. Step one, gather awareness, step

16:43

two, reflect, step three, write, play, draw, step

16:45

four, recheck, step five, active reach, which is

16:48

basically what we've been describing here. What about

16:50

physical movement and brain health? And it's not

16:52

in here, but I want to ask you

16:54

about that. I find that my anxiety

16:57

and depression and concern and worry

16:59

or angst is often something physically

17:01

I'm doing. I feel like there's

17:03

a physical nature to it. And

17:06

I have found that when I

17:08

change my physiology, I tend to

17:10

feel like I've changed. Maybe your

17:12

physical body is your unconscious mind.

17:14

I don't know. I'll let you

17:16

answer this. when my body begins

17:18

to move in a certain way,

17:20

I have found that to be

17:22

a pathway out of some of

17:24

the negative emotions that I'm feeling.

17:26

And I'm wondering, even with children,

17:28

is part of the mental health

17:30

issues we're seeing that they're less

17:32

and less active physically, meaning a

17:35

lot more video gaming, right? A

17:37

lot more stuff on their Mac or their

17:39

iPad, whereas when I was a kid, I'm

17:41

sure mental health issues were very prevalent, but

17:43

we were outside. So we were outdoors more

17:45

and I know that's not really part of

17:47

what we're talking about here, but I'm just

17:49

related Is it related? It's totally related and

17:51

part of you'll see in the in my

17:53

books in my neurocycle app where all these

17:55

steps are the neurocycle app I literally walk

17:57

you through the process and in the children

18:00

book, the active reach is I encourage

18:02

that physical activity. I encourage and you'll

18:04

see throughout the actual five steps you

18:06

can bring in the physical activity in

18:08

different ways. So basically your body, your

18:10

mind stores in three places. mind, which

18:12

is all around you, these gravitational fields

18:14

and so on, brain, the trees, but

18:16

in the body, in the cells. So

18:18

therefore you, that's why we have body

18:20

memory. That's why when you have recall

18:22

them, something that you get, your body

18:24

responds as well. So that body response

18:26

is really important. Like, for example, if

18:28

you're trying to get your children to

18:30

talk after school and they don't want

18:33

to talk and let them have a

18:35

little rest, but go for walk, start

18:37

doing something and the action activatesatesates. is

18:39

the body, it's that the non-conscious is

18:41

operating in the body, it's your driving

18:43

system, it's your mind driving, so your

18:45

non-conscious is the thing that's always using

18:47

every part of you. Your mind, brain

18:49

and body are on your side, they're

18:51

all, we have this intent, this psychoneurobiological

18:53

link that is our superpower, that literally,

18:55

when you understand how to read it,

18:57

we can move forward. So you explained,

18:59

you said that if you feel angst,

19:01

you feel your body feeling it, angst,

19:03

emotional warning signal. your body feeling at

19:06

physical warning signal. You're probably not totally

19:08

focused initially on your behaviors and your

19:10

perspective. Then you move. As you move,

19:12

you start unlocking and getting an idea

19:14

of, and that's full under the behavioral

19:16

signal as well, then it starts unlocking

19:18

the others, and you start getting into

19:20

that space where you can work on

19:22

going through this process. And then you

19:24

can fit movement in any way. The

19:26

reason I feel so big about physical

19:28

stuff and brain mental health is like,

19:30

take your spouse for a second. You

19:32

think about the moments of your life.

19:34

that you feel the most connected. Let's

19:36

just be honest. Some of it can

19:39

be your sexual time with that. Why

19:41

what's happening? Something physical is happening between

19:43

the two of you. When I want

19:45

to open up and like with my

19:47

children or something like that when I

19:49

really want to get them to talk

19:51

you're so brilliant because I found you

19:53

know putting them on the couch or

19:55

sitting on their bed is okay but

19:57

if we take a walk to your

19:59

point where we're changing something there. You

20:01

know, even laying on the couch with

20:03

your spouse watching networks when they're actually

20:05

touching each other and laying on each

20:07

other compared to one, you know, they're

20:10

on one side of the couch and

20:12

you're on the other. There's just, there's

20:14

a deeper connection when something physical is

20:16

involved. Exactly. The other part of it

20:18

that you write about in the book

20:20

that I've never really looked at before,

20:22

and you talk about this particularly with

20:24

children. So the book is written, you

20:26

know, Dr. Lee's books have been for

20:28

everybody. This one's more specifically guided towards

20:30

children, but really everything. Parents for children.

20:32

So to have parents, help parents, parents,

20:34

parents, children. Yeah, parents and children, right.

20:36

But sleep. So if you have a

20:38

child or a child, so if you

20:40

have parents and children, right. But sleep.

20:43

So if you have a child or

20:45

yourself, because I know this is true.

20:47

each of us individually. Absolutely. Well, what

20:49

I've tried to do in this book

20:51

is to try and find the things

20:53

that I know are hot-backing topics, to

20:55

try and help parents have a, and

20:57

to teach the neurocycle in such a

20:59

way that it's super simple, it's very

21:01

practical or whatever. So I take areas

21:03

like trauma, sleep, etc. and I'm glad

21:05

you've mentioned the sleep, but it's very

21:07

practical or whatever. So I take areas

21:09

like trauma, sleep, etc. I'm glad you're

21:11

going to... sleep is very important but

21:13

how many hours of sleep a person

21:16

should sleep in a day we don't

21:18

actually know really and also people have

21:20

different patterns of sleep so this thing

21:22

that your child must sleep eight hours

21:24

a day is not necessarily true but

21:26

if your child isn't sleeping and there

21:28

is a persistent pattern of no of

21:30

bad sleep there's something going on that's

21:32

definitely would be classified under your behavioral

21:34

warning signals and it's worth investigating and

21:36

that's why I should put sleep neurocicals

21:38

into the book on things there different

21:40

ones that you can do because preparing

21:42

yourself for sleep starts when you wake

21:44

up in the morning. You know, it's

21:47

like when you wake up in the

21:49

morning, the first thing is as the

21:51

chemistry starts to readjusting so that you

21:53

can become conscious at that moment to

21:55

train yourself to... Just how, what am

21:57

I for signals? What am I feeling?

21:59

Am I complaining? What am I feeling

22:01

sad? Am I complaining? Quick assessment of

22:03

your four signals. So what are my

22:05

emotions? What am I, what's my body

22:07

doing? What are my behaviors in this

22:09

moment? Like I'm lying in bed, but

22:11

am I tense? And what's my perspective?

22:13

I don't want to do today. If

22:15

you can catch that takes you, those

22:17

four things can take your 10 seconds

22:20

and can... or really prepare you for

22:22

a night's sleep. It sets you into

22:24

it, opens your mind that you can

22:26

actually then face the day. So that's

22:28

one thing. You can do. I've got

22:30

a whole thing there that you can

22:32

do a sleep mirror cycle for children

22:34

as they wake up. Then if you

22:36

see there's a pattern of children not

22:38

sleeping. is to find a time during

22:40

the day, that's a good time. Either

22:42

early evening, when they've been to school,

22:44

they've had dinner, they've played, that's sort

22:46

of a good time to kind of

22:48

work around. But you can find, don't

22:50

do this when they're exhausted. And then

22:53

you can do a whole neurocycle to

22:55

try and work through a whole neurocycle

22:57

to try and work through what the

22:59

cause could be. When we don't sleep,

23:01

the main reason we don't agree with

23:03

me here. because there's so many cases

23:05

and I actually give a case in

23:07

the study in the book of very

23:09

you know quite a traumatic situation of

23:11

child who was abused physically and sexually

23:13

from three months of age but just

23:15

could not sleep through the night and

23:17

they did everything all the sleep aids

23:19

all the sweat noise everything you can

23:21

possibly do and not that those don't

23:24

work they are definitely going to facilitate

23:26

and help but the core issue was

23:28

the child's abuse and what that the

23:30

impact of that and although the child

23:32

was out of that unsafe environment that

23:34

you had to deal with what was

23:36

going on and that child was very

23:38

young. So once the parent just happened

23:40

to come across my stuff and do

23:42

the neurocycle and the child's will like

23:44

to the parent doing it and sort

23:46

of doing it and within four days

23:48

this child was sleeping. Now this was

23:50

an eight-year-old. They didn't use this book

23:52

because this book wasn't out yet. The

23:54

child saw what the mom was doing,

23:57

saw the change in the mom because

23:59

the kids watched watch us and this

24:01

was an eight-year-old. and said, I want

24:03

to do what you're doing. And so

24:05

she adapted it as best she could,

24:07

and this child started sleeping within four

24:09

days. So the core issue there was

24:11

a trauma that was unresolved, and you

24:13

said it yourself. I know, I do.

24:15

If I've got something that I haven't

24:17

dealt with, or if I've got something

24:19

that I haven't dealt with, or if

24:21

I've got something that I haven't dealt

24:23

with. And I know you're such a

24:25

person of faith, so I'm going to

24:28

say this to everybody. It's prayer. And

24:30

let me say why. So prayer at

24:32

night is a chance for me to

24:34

take my burdens and put them on

24:36

my higher power, in my case, Jesus. But

24:38

whatever your faith is, and I

24:40

know you share my faith. And

24:42

I wonder how many people are

24:44

praying with their children at night,

24:46

because this is an opportunity for

24:48

your children to probably open up.

24:51

I think it's an opportunity for

24:53

them to relieve themselves of their

24:55

burdens. I have found that when

24:57

I have really deep beautiful prayer,

24:59

even if it's brief, that I

25:01

sleep better at night because there's

25:03

a perspective that I get that I'm protected.

25:05

And I really wonder that. The second

25:07

thing is, I want to ask you

25:09

about both these. So this is for

25:11

adults, but it also affects our children.

25:14

More and more our children are on their screens

25:16

late at night. I know this is just

25:18

a brain issue, so it's not necessarily trauma,

25:20

but there's all this data about blue screen

25:22

time and how it's difficult to sleep. I

25:24

don't know if it's accurate or not, but

25:26

I know when you're doing homework it's stressful.

25:28

I think people let their children do their

25:30

homework too late at night, and now that's

25:32

a problem. Now it's a stressor, now it's

25:34

a trauma. Also they're on their screen. And

25:36

a lot of these schools put so much

25:38

homework on their children, just being real. Yeah,

25:40

the school system is a problem. So when

25:42

your kids get home from school, wouldn't it

25:44

be smarter to get them A, to start doing

25:47

their homework earlier so they're off of their screens

25:49

and away from stressful stuff before sleep? Also true

25:51

for you as an adult. And just prayer. I

25:53

know it's not a major part of what's happening

25:55

in here, but am I right that both of

25:57

those things would probably make an impact on sleep?

26:00

and maybe then their mental health. Absolutely,

26:02

you know, you through prayer, if you

26:04

look at prayer in terms of any

26:06

religion or any philosophy or any belief,

26:08

if people don't even believe in anything,

26:10

it can be seen as a way

26:12

of just trying to organize yourself and

26:15

then believe that it's not just me,

26:17

there's something more. There's this, and we

26:19

know what's common to you. all mankind

26:21

and that's love. So, you know, to

26:23

talk to a child about love, so

26:25

you could do a loveness in your

26:28

cycle, you could call it a prayer

26:30

in your cycle, whatever you want, but

26:32

you can actually say, well, let's look

26:34

at what are, what am I feeling

26:36

right now? And how, why do we

26:38

think we feel that? And how, why

26:40

do we think we feel that? And

26:43

how, why do we think we feel

26:45

that? And how, why do we think

26:47

we feel that? And you can go

26:49

through a beautiful, you. you're teaching a

26:51

child to do that. So yes, it

26:53

is a form of unloading your burdens

26:56

into either you believe it's Jesus, God,

26:58

love,ness, whatever. I love to talk about

27:00

Godness and loveness because that's something that's

27:02

relatable to anyone. You know, so you

27:04

kind of step into that space and

27:06

there's so much physics behind this, and

27:09

science behind how you're collapsing the consciousness.

27:11

And I mean, it's just we could

27:13

talk for another two hours about that.

27:15

So yes, totally, I do believe that.

27:17

neurochemical effect on the dead melatonin and

27:19

those kinds of things and controlling adrenaline

27:21

and so it will have it has

27:24

what I've shown with my work is

27:26

that when you use mine stuff and

27:28

specifically the tool of the neurocycle which

27:30

is mine management and as I said

27:32

you can put whatever you want in

27:34

that you are changing your psychoneurobiology so

27:37

you're changing cortisol levels you're changing homocyin

27:39

levels you're changing all the things that

27:41

can keep you're getting them to the

27:43

point with the brain waves that kind

27:45

of of stuff. So it's real. I

27:47

mean, that's very, very real. I don't

27:49

think I've done an interview in like

27:52

45 or 50 minutes with more stuff.

27:54

We've done thought trees. We've done the

27:56

neurocycle. We've done the non-conscious mind. and

27:58

all of these different things here. We've

28:00

done the highlight reel, which I kicked

28:02

in here today. If I was asking,

28:05

I could ask you one more question.

28:07

Did you want me to answer the

28:09

second part of the other question? Yes.

28:11

Yes. What was the second part of

28:13

the other question? Second part of the

28:15

other question was blue screen. Yes, OK.

28:18

Bullying, social media, all that stuff. It's

28:20

immersed us in stimulation. So it's very

28:22

good, very good and bad. All we

28:24

need to do is teach your kids

28:26

to manage it. That's the key. It's

28:28

not going away. So it's not a

28:30

bad thing if we know how to

28:33

manage it. So it's just finding what

28:35

works for you and your family in

28:37

terms of blue screens and all those

28:39

things. There's a lot of science. that

28:41

supports and contradicts the concept. Listen, if

28:43

a person's worked up, doesn't matter what

28:46

you do about blue screens, they're still

28:48

going to stay awake. So sometimes people,

28:50

if they're relaxed enough and they're watching

28:52

their film or whatever before they go

28:54

to sleep, it's not going to be

28:56

an issue. It's very much up to

28:58

the individual. It's how we are managing

29:01

it. You've got to experiment with your

29:03

child and with yourself and see what

29:05

works for you. That's really important. So

29:07

it's that by individual aspect by individual

29:09

aspect that by individual aspect. For example,

29:11

very quick. Kids would get bullied at

29:14

school. That's not anything. Bullying's been around

29:16

since the time. The difference is it

29:18

follows them home now. It's 24. It's

29:20

the most. It's an emotion versus an

29:22

emotion experience versus an intermittent experience. And

29:24

when you have that distinction, and when

29:27

you have that distinction, that distinction, that's

29:29

an intermittent experience. And when you have

29:31

that distinction, that distinction, that's an intermittent.

29:33

know this. I have a very good

29:35

friend I've been thinking about the entire

29:37

interview who has a child that's just

29:39

really had chronic struggles with mental health

29:42

issues over and over to the point

29:44

where they've done cutting and it's gotten

29:46

really severe and that child probably in

29:48

my opinion should be more physically active.

29:50

I know they have prayer in their

29:52

life that neurocycle could be a game

29:55

changer for them so I can't wait

29:57

for them to hear this. I really

29:59

really believe the neurocycle could be a

30:01

game changer and to think that maybe

30:03

63 to a certain amount of days

30:05

if it's more traumatic you said a

30:07

little bit longer that someone can create

30:10

positive and or remove negative things in

30:12

their life balance the two together When

30:14

is I guess the last question I

30:16

would have for today is because it's

30:18

worth asking When is it time for

30:20

medication with somebody in their brain? Is

30:23

that something that you know? You must

30:25

believe in some cases if someone's you

30:27

know schizophrenic that potentially they need medication

30:29

or do you believe medication never? When

30:31

does someone take the step and the

30:33

risks of doing so? Okay, so loaded

30:36

question. First of all, you'll just quickly

30:38

refer to your friend's child who's self-harming.

30:40

What is the age just very quickly?

30:42

Teenager. Teenager. Okay, so that, what they

30:44

need. what we all need is to

30:46

feel empowered and not to feel that

30:48

there's something wrong with us. And our

30:51

current biomedical model will say that you've

30:53

got a broken brain. And so that

30:55

creates a sense of hopelessness. We also

30:57

need to help our children develop psychological

30:59

immunity. So not just immune system, like

31:01

our immune system, helps, you build our

31:04

immune system, you build your muscles and

31:06

the resistance training, we've got to build

31:08

our psychological immunity. And what we've taken

31:10

from our children in a lot of

31:12

our current models is that ability to

31:14

say it's okay to be. together. So

31:16

a huge part of my work in

31:19

the book that I've just released is

31:21

about you as a parent knowing how

31:23

to manage your own, get your own,

31:25

and then how, model, and model, exactly,

31:27

and then allowing a child a space,

31:29

no matter what they say to you,

31:32

no judgment, no compassion, but saying, listen,

31:34

I see how you're showing up, I

31:36

validate, I recognize, let's work through this

31:38

together, here's a system that's scientific that

31:40

you can work to you together, and

31:42

the key... it is empowerment. You have

31:45

to get a person empowered to change

31:47

their relationship with themselves. And when that

31:49

happens, that's when the growth comes. The

31:51

cutting, the self-harm, whether, whatever it is,

31:53

alcohol addiction, whatever it may be, is

31:55

coming from, yes, the tormism, you can

31:57

go through all that, I bet you

32:00

that child probably has had so much

32:02

therapy that they can tell you why

32:04

they're doing it to a certain extent,

32:06

but to get the change in a

32:08

person's life, it starts with feeling like

32:10

this. me, I'm responding to life circumstances,

32:13

here's a plan for me to be

32:15

able to move forward and be empowered

32:17

to actually realize that my brain and

32:19

my body do with my mind when

32:21

I know my wise mind wants it

32:23

to do. So that's a simple answer

32:25

to that. Medications are very complex answer,

32:28

but I'm going to do the easiest,

32:30

quickest version. Up front, I'm not saying

32:32

anyone to stop their medication immediately because

32:34

of the withdrawal. Let's make a quick

32:36

distinction between drugs and medicine. Medicines are

32:38

aimed to try and fix a problem

32:41

like... insulin for diabetes. We can, we

32:43

can test for diabetes, we can find,

32:45

we know there's a biological cause and

32:47

we've got a drug that's fairly specific

32:49

to the problem. When it comes to

32:51

a child cutting which is a behavior,

32:54

depression, perspective of life sucks, battling, all

32:56

the things that you describe with your

32:58

friend's child, which is obviously this is

33:00

very surface what I'm saying, but that

33:02

cluster of things, that is not a...

33:04

a brain disease that's going to be

33:06

fixed by a drug. That's not coming

33:09

from something wrong in the brain and

33:11

a chemical imbalance. It's coming from some

33:13

cluster of toxic issues and things that

33:15

that child doesn't know how to process.

33:17

Self-cutting for example is so much pain

33:19

inside yourself that it's too much inside

33:22

so it's easier to transfer the pain

33:24

to the cutting so that that pain

33:26

detracts from the internal pain. And that's

33:28

an energy that's... No energy is lost,

33:30

it's only transferred, so it's transferred energy.

33:32

So we must transfer child energy into

33:34

being able to create safe spaces so

33:37

that they can talk to us as

33:39

parents, parents, parents, caregivers. people that they

33:41

trust, peers are fantastic for supporting and

33:43

that will help them sort of transfer

33:45

their energy. So a drug is something

33:47

that like alcohol, cocaine and psychotropics, they

33:50

fall under the same category. They're not

33:52

fixing anything. They're not restoring, they are

33:54

drugs. And a drug is a psychoactive

33:56

substance so it changes the state of

33:58

the brain versus a medicine is trying

34:00

to fix something. So antidepressants on fixing

34:03

chemical imbalance. that's been disproved with some

34:05

myth. The pillars of psychiatry are used

34:07

to say that you've got a chemical

34:09

imbalance, etc. They're not doing that. What

34:11

they're doing is they are providing temporary

34:13

relief. So if someone is in such

34:15

a bad state, so for example someone's

34:18

having very extreme delusions and hallucinations, which

34:20

is not a disease of schizophrenia, it's

34:22

schizophrenia symptoms. So instead of saying schizophrenia,

34:24

bipolar, etc. as a label or diagnosis,

34:26

which is very unscientific and inaccurate and

34:28

does harm, actually does harm research as

34:31

shown. the person. It doesn't recognize the

34:33

enormity of what they're going through. It's

34:35

rather, let's say, they describe it as

34:37

behaviors because of something huge in their

34:39

life and let's look at this whole

34:41

person. They don't need a disease label

34:43

and a medication to validate what they're

34:46

going through. It's valid enough for them

34:48

to get the support they need. A

34:50

label and a drug put it in

34:52

a little box and make it small,

34:54

telling them the story, letting them talk,

34:56

going through that process. gives it the

34:59

size that it needs if that makes

35:01

sense. So the drug, the way I

35:03

would recommend drugs is to see them

35:05

as drugs on medications and if someone's

35:07

in an extreme state, temporary, like you

35:09

don't, if you have a headache, you

35:12

take an albuprofen to relieve the symptoms,

35:14

but you don't, if you have a

35:16

headache, you take an albuprofen to relieve

35:18

the symptoms, but you don't, if you

35:20

have a headache, you take an albuprofen

35:22

to relieve, you know, so if someone's

35:24

in a really bad or a really

35:27

bad way, I have... interview top scientists

35:29

in the world that are drug withdrawal

35:31

experts and they can go and listen

35:33

to my podcast and they can search

35:35

to drug withdrawal and they'll have the

35:37

talk. top experts with all the resources

35:40

to guide them through that process. What

35:42

a remarkable conversation. It just flew by.

35:44

I did fly by. I'm so excited

35:46

to have this guest here today. She's

35:48

one of the most brilliant people you

35:50

ever going to meet in your life.

35:52

She's a best-selling author. She's got a

35:55

PhD in communication pathology. She's brilliant and

35:57

you're going to write a bunch of

35:59

notes today. I mean like a bunch

36:01

of notes. So Dr. Caroline Lee. Thank

36:03

you so much for that lovely. when

36:05

I interviewed you and I think you're

36:08

incredible as well. So thank you. What's

36:10

the difference between brain and mind? And

36:12

what are these five steps to managing

36:14

our mind? Maybe you just listed a

36:16

few of them there, but I like

36:18

lists, so I'm just wondering what those

36:21

are. Absolutely. Well, first of all, the

36:23

five steps we call the neurocycle, what

36:25

I call it the neurocycle. So with

36:27

your mind, you're cycling through your brain,

36:29

you're directing, and it's always changing the

36:31

brain. and it's always happening, can we

36:33

direct that process? So for three, three,

36:36

three, almost four decades now, I've been

36:38

researching that, and the answer is yes,

36:40

and that's what's in the booking up

36:42

a mental mess. So if you add

36:44

the neurocycle to your lifestyle, and it's

36:46

a lifestyle, you actually. will literally improve

36:49

your ability to manage your mind by

36:51

81% and more, which is phenomenal because

36:53

it means that you influence cellular health

36:55

through the telomeres, which we can unpack

36:57

as well. You can reduce inflammation, you

36:59

can improve your immune function, your cardiovascular

37:01

function, neurological kidney life, everything about your

37:04

body will respond to mind management because

37:06

your mind basically is driving all those

37:08

functions anyway. Your gut health, your gut

37:10

brain, brain interaction, all of it isn't

37:12

happy. brain and body are dead. So

37:14

what's keeping, what's the difference between a

37:17

dead person and a live person? Mind.

37:19

So if mind is messy, brain and

37:21

body is cleaned up and it's a

37:23

process because we're all going to be

37:25

messy because we have free will and

37:27

part of getting a mind sorted out,

37:30

part of mind management is dealing with

37:32

a mental mess. It's accepting I'm going

37:34

to be make. bad decisions. I'm going

37:36

to get into arguments. I am going

37:38

to make, you know, misunderstand people. I

37:40

am going to have acute traumas and

37:42

toxic traumas and imposter syndrome and people

37:45

pleasing and all the stuff all of

37:47

us goes through in different ways. So

37:49

I'm going to have that and it's

37:51

okay, but how am I going to

37:53

manage it? So for me personally, what's

37:55

happened over the years is that I

37:58

still go through these things, but the

38:00

difference I'm 81% more efficient in identifying

38:02

and managing. So instead of something that

38:04

could throw me years ago for days

38:06

and affect my work and everything, I

38:08

can deal with it within seconds and

38:10

minutes and get back on track. So

38:13

that's one part of the answer. So

38:15

before I go to my brain, do

38:17

you want to ask anything or unpack

38:19

anything? with what I said. Are there

38:21

are there specifically five things like it

38:24

are going to sequence? Yes it's a

38:26

sequence so so before I tell the

38:28

sequence let me tell you mind brain

38:30

because it'll make so much more sense

38:33

because I've said alluded to it a

38:35

lot so your mind is separate from

38:37

your brain but inseparable so the what

38:40

is the brain the brain and mind

38:42

are not the same thing and the

38:44

brain and body collectively are made of

38:47

37 to 100 trillion cells in to

38:49

this incredible, the brain and the heart

38:51

and the lungs, etc. And your mind

38:54

is what actually is the external force

38:56

that keeps them going, the blood flowing,

38:58

the chemicals, electricity, the electromagnetics, all of

39:00

that, which is phenomenal. So that's why

39:03

our minds are not managed. The body

39:05

and the brain is not managed. The

39:07

body and the brain will be a

39:09

mess. And so, and that goes down

39:12

to even like, if you're eating, maybe

39:14

eating a farm to table, wonderful diet,

39:16

wonderful diet, wonderful diet. bad habit or

39:19

that toxic trauma, you will lose up

39:21

to 80% of the nutrition because your

39:23

mind has affected the ability of the

39:25

digestive system to actually digest and get

39:27

the simulated nutrients. And sometimes it's kind

39:30

of messy and sometimes it's great and

39:32

we all, if we're human, we are

39:34

going to experience messes and there's no

39:36

shame in that. The sooner we get

39:38

rid of the shame and guilt and

39:40

condemnation around being messy and the sooner

39:42

we as leaders talk about the mind

39:44

more authentically, the more we give people

39:47

that follow us. a permission to talk

39:49

about mind. Only 3% of leaders are

39:51

talking about mind, which is terrible. So

39:53

that doesn't, that's creating the stigma, that

39:55

they're pretending that be perfect. And that's why

39:57

we see people that seem to be perfect.

40:00

lives and they're committing suicide. Meanwhile, it's

40:02

because we've got this philosophy in this

40:04

day and age of not being open

40:06

and seeing issues of the mind as

40:08

helpful messengers of an underlying issue. The

40:10

neurocycle then is these five-step. It is

40:12

how you manage your mind moment by

40:15

moment. So it's a lifestyle. So the

40:17

neurocycle is what you do when you're

40:19

awake and conscious and it then automatically

40:21

prepares you for sleep because sleep is

40:23

fixing up your brain is always needs

40:25

to be managed. And so an analogy

40:27

and then I'll dive into the five

40:30

steps. You can go three weeks without

40:32

food. You can go three days without

40:34

water. You can go three minutes without

40:36

oxygen, but you don't even go three

40:38

seconds without using your mind. So you're

40:40

always thinking, feeling and choosing. Yeah. So

40:42

it's gather awareness. Second step is to

40:45

reflect. Third step is to write. Four

40:47

step is to recheck and the first

40:49

step is an act of reach. So

40:51

each of those, they're so profound, they

40:53

do the most phenomenal stuff in your

40:55

brain and the first half of the

40:57

book where I talk about the mental

41:00

health system and I talk about my

41:02

clinical trials, I do explain what each

41:04

of those steps are doing. So the

41:06

first thing is together awareness. gather awareness

41:08

and I've chosen words very carefully. If

41:10

you think of a big fat apple

41:12

tree and you're apple picking and this

41:15

apple tree is so full that you

41:17

actually can't like you just go up

41:19

to and you just nudge it and

41:21

this apples are just falling on your

41:23

head. That's how we often feel when

41:25

your mind's amazed. Everything's just falling on

41:27

our head and it's just too much.

41:30

So what you can do with a

41:32

neurosaco is when you feel that situation

41:34

coming on. remove yourself from the tree

41:36

and stand back and watch the tree

41:38

and gather awareness of all of that.

41:40

Don't be scared of it. Don't run

41:42

away from the apple tree. Just stand

41:45

back and observe the apple tree. Observe

41:47

what's going on there. Let me jump

41:49

in about that. This is brilliant. One

41:51

of the things I've taught. One of

41:53

the things I've taught for a long

41:55

time, I didn't understand the neuroscience behind

41:57

it was that for me, and there's

42:00

four other steps, this is why everybody

42:02

needs. over me. They're influenced over me.

42:04

And one of the reasons that that

42:06

you're, you're explaining it scientific, which I've

42:08

always wanted to understand better, because I

42:10

do become separate from the thought when

42:12

I observe it, almost like I'm above

42:15

it and distant from it, like you've

42:17

said, and I realize I'm above it

42:19

and distant from it, like you've said,

42:21

and I realize I'm not just that

42:23

thought, and that it is a pattern

42:25

that I'm running. Now to know that

42:27

there's four other steps. is obviously very

42:30

empowering as well, but I want to

42:32

just unpack this a little bit into

42:34

another area. So I want to use

42:36

your brilliance towards something else. One thing

42:38

I want to acknowledge is that what

42:40

Caroline is saying is that neuroplasticity is

42:42

real, that Mind can change matter, that

42:45

literally that these thoughts, that if you

42:47

change them, change the protein structures in

42:49

your brain, change the matter of your

42:51

brain. So this is powerful to know

42:53

that we can physically change our brain

42:55

by using our mind. And this distinction

42:57

between the mind and the brain is

43:00

also a breakthrough way of listening to

43:02

it or seeing it. For me, as

43:04

I'm sure it is for everybody else,

43:06

just those things alone, just those two

43:08

things alone have made our time already

43:10

incredibly invaluable for me and anybody listening

43:12

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dash gold card built for

45:26

business by American Express. That

45:28

was a great conversation, and if you

45:30

want to hear the full interview, be

45:32

sure to follow the Ed My Let

45:34

show on Apple and Spotify. Links are

45:37

in the show notes. You'll never miss

45:39

an episode that way. I'm so excited

45:41

to have this lady here with me.

45:43

I'm fascinated by her work. And because

45:45

the applications in so many different areas

45:47

of my own life and I believe

45:49

for the audience today, she's got a

45:51

new book out called Peak Mind. She's

45:53

a neuroscientist professor of psychology at University

45:55

of Miami. and I already like her.

45:57

Amishi, Jo, welcome to the program. Thank

45:59

you. So much, it's great to be

46:01

here. I think also that if you've

46:03

had some success too, that if it

46:05

doesn't come with a dose of humility,

46:07

that when you begin to walk into

46:09

every room and every environment, I think

46:11

you've already figured it out, you already

46:13

know, this stunts growth as well, because

46:15

what you're saying is it blunts you

46:17

taking in new data and new information.

46:19

Correct. Correct. You get it. You totally

46:22

get it. You are denying yourself better

46:24

data, more data to inform the decisions

46:26

that happen. So don't do that. Don't

46:28

do that to yourself, right? Give us

46:30

the exercise. We've been building enough. Give

46:32

us work. Yeah, okay. So this is

46:34

like, I'm going to give you a

46:36

longer one just to describe the steps.

46:38

Then we'll do it like one that

46:40

you could do any time all the

46:42

time. Okay. So this is like a

46:44

basic mindfulness practice. And I call it,

46:46

again, again, tied to what we're talking

46:48

to what we're talking about, Find your

46:50

flashlight practice. Great. Because oftentimes it's not

46:52

that we don't, we can't focus, it's

46:54

that we don't know where we're focusing

46:56

at any moment. That's true. So the

46:58

instruction would be, and I guide people

47:00

to kind of ramp up to about

47:02

12 minutes a day that our data

47:04

suggests is beneficial to do this, but

47:07

to start out like do 30 seconds

47:09

of this, commit to that for a

47:11

few weeks and see how that goes.

47:13

So the practice is essentially find a

47:15

quiet, comfortable spot, and take this time

47:17

seriously, or a minute. sit in an

47:19

upright alert posture, like a dignified, you

47:21

know, if we do it now, it's

47:23

just like upright alert dignified. And first

47:25

step is just acknowledge notice, shine the

47:27

floodlight on your experience that you're breathing

47:29

right now. Then what you're gonna do

47:31

is hone in something that actually you

47:33

notice is prominent in your experience of

47:35

breathing. So

47:38

do you notice anything that feels prominent,

47:40

like the coolness of air, maybe by

47:42

your nose or maybe your chest? It's

47:44

actually the sound I'm making. Okay, great.

47:47

Yeah, the sound, that's a great one

47:49

too. That's where you're going to hold

47:51

the point, the flashlight. That's your attention

47:53

on target for this short practice. So

47:56

direct that flashlight right there. Keep it

47:58

steady? You

48:00

can close your eyes if

48:02

you want to, whatever you

48:05

choose, just to limit this

48:07

sensory input. And if it

48:09

hasn't happened yet, it surely

48:11

will, your mind will wander.

48:13

And all you do in

48:16

that moment is notice it.

48:18

Ah, the mind is wandered

48:20

away. Next step, take that

48:22

flashlight, redirect it back to

48:25

that same attentional target. And

48:27

repeat. So it's

48:29

essentially focus, point that flashlight, notice, use

48:31

the floodlight, redirect, get the juggler to

48:33

do its job. Oh my goodness. You

48:36

don't want, can I ask about that?

48:38

Yeah, please. When I first started this,

48:40

there was like a judgment when I

48:42

drift away. Oh no, it's a total

48:44

win. It's a win moment. It's actually

48:47

a win because it gives us a

48:49

chance to redirect the flashlight, right? This

48:51

is so important because I used to,

48:53

I don't know, maybe you, maybe you're

48:56

further along than me, but in the

48:58

beginning I was like, gosh man, I'm

49:00

gone this for like 24 seconds and

49:02

I'm out. But you're actually saying that's

49:05

actually a gift when we drift away

49:07

because it allows us to build this

49:09

flashlight, I'll call it a musclele to

49:11

a muscle, so to a muscle, so

49:13

to a muscle, so to a muscle,

49:16

so to speak. We hit all three

49:18

in this, and I think it's really

49:20

important to not think of the wandering

49:22

as a problem. The wandering, remember we

49:25

start out talking about 50% of the

49:27

time, it's the nature of the mind.

49:29

I didn't say, Ed, if you happen

49:31

to be one of those weird people

49:33

with mine wanders, like us normal people

49:36

don't have that, you have mine wanders.

49:38

I didn't say that. I said, when

49:40

your mind wanders, because it's gonna wander,

49:42

for sure. I did a lot of

49:45

work when I was younger and I

49:47

do now with kids. And I have

49:49

so many parents almost judge their children

49:51

for their, he can't stay focused in

49:53

the classroom. He drifts away. And I'm

49:56

just thinking right now, like what a

49:58

breakthrough this might be for some parents

50:00

who are listening to this to realize

50:02

that that's actually. everyone is at 50%

50:05

maybe your kid reveals it more of

50:07

another kids do doesn't conceal it as

50:09

well right maybe it manifests in talking

50:11

out loud as opposed to scribbling on

50:13

a sheet of paper so it's more

50:16

apparent but this is something that even

50:18

with do you believe it is there

50:20

a particular age where you believe a

50:22

child might be able to begin to

50:25

build this I'm calling it building a

50:27

muscle because everybody can relate to that

50:29

it is it's practice it's strengthening so

50:31

the first thing to say is that

50:34

this brain system of attention is one

50:36

of the slowest to develop. We don't

50:38

fully develop this capacity till we're about

50:40

25. And one of the reasons is

50:42

it relies on the front lobes, which

50:45

are the slowest brain region to develop.

50:47

So, you know, it does kind of

50:49

drive me nuts sometimes. And I feel

50:51

for parents when they're, but when they're

50:54

not happy that their children aren't paying

50:56

attention or their responses, pay attention. It's

50:58

not going to help at all. And

51:00

in fact, understanding that that's the thing

51:02

that is, it's your child is not

51:05

not paying attention because they don't know

51:07

that they should often, is that they

51:09

don't know where their attention is. Just

51:11

like we are saying, we don't know.

51:14

Wow, that's good. That's good. So I

51:16

think that the thing to really, and

51:18

by the way, yes, absolutely, there's a

51:20

huge enterprise of offering mindfulness training in

51:22

a. developmentally appropriate manner to children as

51:25

long as as young as preschool. Really?

51:27

We can do these in very useful

51:29

ways for children but what you're having

51:31

them cultivate is not just focus focus

51:34

focus focus it's where are you right

51:36

now? No where are you in a

51:38

friendly self-supportive way? And is that where

51:40

you want to be? Like oh. I'm

51:43

over here. I think I want to

51:45

be over there instead. I think that's

51:47

what I should be doing right now

51:49

is being over there. It's a different

51:51

relationship. And if you, the younger that

51:54

we can get people to start understanding

51:56

that this is befriending your mind in

51:58

a way that allows it to be

52:00

used to your benefit. That's fascinating to

52:03

me. Yeah, that, I'm just thinking I'm

52:05

sitting here as a 50 year old.

52:07

I've done different forms of meditation, mindfulness,

52:09

relatively productive human being, and I'm confessing

52:11

to the audience that oftentimes I'm going

52:14

24 seconds and I'm out of my

52:16

attention where, well my attention has changed

52:18

rather. So the idea that we're concerned

52:20

about our, so the idea that we're

52:23

concerned about our eight-year-old who might have

52:25

the exact same scenario that I do.

52:27

I'm just curious, has been any data,

52:29

are kids even more than 50%? that's

52:31

saying that with children, by the way.

52:34

What does it take for you to

52:36

even know if somebody's on task or

52:38

off task? Right? They have to have

52:40

the awareness. It's something called meta awareness.

52:43

Awareness or attention to your attention. That

52:45

is also a developmentally slow process. So

52:47

we're getting a fuzzy read on them.

52:49

I mean, we could take them into

52:51

the lab and look directly at their

52:54

performance on tasks. And yeah, they might

52:56

wander a lot. Their attention can be

52:58

off often, you know, off task often.

53:00

of it, which is the counterintuitive thing,

53:03

and I mean I refer to it

53:05

in the book, it's like a peak

53:07

mind pivot. It's like we think that

53:09

we have, to focus better, we think

53:12

we need to focus on, we need

53:14

to train ourselves to focus, and I'm

53:16

saying no, to focus better, train your

53:18

mind to notice when you're not focused.

53:20

Gosh, very good. So, you know, that's

53:23

a totally different set of your, you're

53:25

exercising. understanding of where your mind is

53:27

moment by moment. I did that during

53:29

your TED Talk. You actually say something

53:32

similar during your TED Talk. And then

53:34

I thought, well, where am I now?

53:36

Yeah. And then I'm back with you.

53:38

And then where am I now? And

53:40

then where am I now? And then

53:43

where am I now? And then I

53:45

came back with you. And then where

53:47

am I now? And then I came

53:49

back with you. And then I came

53:52

back with you. And that's it. You

53:54

know, you know, 24 seconds. 24 seconds,

53:56

if you know, if you know. I

53:58

was like, I'm not going for long

54:00

before my mind wanders and will that

54:03

be the thing that will extend as

54:05

I practice more? That was my thinking

54:07

like that's a reasonable hypothesis I might

54:09

if it's you know five seconds now

54:12

maybe it'll be 10 and 15 each

54:14

year I might get longer before it

54:16

wandering and I was very humbled by

54:18

what he said he said 30 years

54:20

of practice he said seven seconds no

54:23

kidding and but you know so at

54:25

first I'm like oh great what am

54:27

I've been bothering like it's still gonna

54:29

be seven seconds after 30 years but

54:32

what he said next really helped really

54:34

helped He said, you know, what has

54:36

happened is that my mind now, instead

54:38

of being completely lost in a fantasy

54:41

or a doomsday scenario, and I love

54:43

the, it was like almost poetic, he's

54:45

like, it's like I'm seeing the ripples.

54:47

the ripples at the distance of the

54:49

placid lake. And I was like, oh,

54:52

he really knows his mind. Like he

54:54

can tell it's like tug. He doesn't

54:56

have to go full on into, you

54:58

know, next vacation has been planned while

55:01

you're trying to do five minutes of

55:03

a mindfulness practice. That felt so much

55:05

more like he knows his mind. He

55:07

knows where it is that with that

55:09

level of granularity. Yeah. And in some

55:12

sense, this is the part that I

55:14

think is also really interesting, especially as

55:16

we talk about. athletes and military service

55:18

members and special operators, etc. It's the

55:21

sense that you develop, because you know

55:23

your mind, a sense of, when I

55:25

use the term, mental toughness. It's like

55:27

I know the space, I know the

55:29

lake, it may not always be placid,

55:32

it's usually for me, like a rough,

55:34

stormy place. But I can take anything.

55:36

Like, my mind is here for it.

55:38

And frankly, that's developing that same flood-like

55:41

capacity. I am here. I'm present for

55:43

it. I'm not gonna be thrown off.

55:45

I'm steady in the middle of whatever's

55:47

going on. Very good. You know, I

55:49

think some of the most self-confident people

55:52

I know are just more self-aware. And

55:54

I think that's actually what you're describing.

55:56

There's an awareness of self. I'm loving

55:58

this and I want to keep going.

56:01

So I want to ask you about

56:03

you. You've described things in visual terminology

56:05

a lot, and I'd like to think

56:07

that I am a visual person also,

56:10

although I don't know that there's such

56:12

a thing. I'm wondering if part of

56:14

that self-awareness is, are some people more

56:16

predisposed to be kinesthetic or auditory or

56:18

visual in their, in the deductions they

56:21

make, in the observations that they make?

56:23

And is that something to be cognizant

56:25

of about yourself when you're in a

56:27

state of attention that you are not

56:30

just, I feel like I'm very visual,

56:32

but maybe every single person is, or

56:34

are there more auditory, predisposed people, kinesthetic,

56:36

usual? I mean, the jury is out.

56:38

Most people say now that like the

56:41

notion of learning styles or specific modalities

56:43

is not all that well supported. I

56:45

would say I don't, we don't know

56:47

yet if that's actually the case, but

56:50

frankly the bulk of the brain as

56:52

human beings. to our little dogs that

56:54

run around, so dominant with vision. But

56:56

you brought up something that I want

56:58

to actually, I want to like kind

57:01

of ping that. Because that what you

57:03

describe is not what I'm talking about

57:05

when I use the term meta awareness.

57:07

What you just describe a very powerful

57:10

thing to do is something we call

57:12

metacognition. So both of these are tied

57:14

to self awareness, but meta awareness is

57:16

a different thing. So meta cognition is

57:18

essentially. knowing your tendencies, knowing your styles,

57:21

knowing your decision-making capacities, your strengths, your

57:23

weaknesses. I mean, everything you just described

57:25

would be really great to know for

57:27

your medicognitive style, for example. And yes,

57:30

it can definitely, there could be differences,

57:32

maybe not tactile or visual, but there

57:34

are definitely differences in the way people

57:36

operate medicognatively. So you may be a

57:39

maximizer in your decision-making versus a satisfyer,

57:41

you know, there's these different orientations. But

57:43

I'm not talking about that. What I'm

57:45

talking about when I talk about the

57:47

floodlight, because remember the floodlight system is

57:50

really about the now. And meta awareness

57:52

is awareness of the moment to moment

57:54

processes and contents within your mind. So

57:56

it doesn't really matter from the meta

57:59

awareness point of view what your tendencies

58:01

are. What is going on right now?

58:03

Where is your mind right now? And

58:05

I think that that, what's important now

58:07

kind of orientation is so important in

58:10

performance context. Yeah. Because it doesn't matter

58:12

what you're doing, I'm like, what's going

58:14

on now? Is it always important to

58:16

be in the now? In other words,

58:19

is it bad to be dreaming in

58:21

the future? Is it bad or good?

58:23

I don't even like that terminology, but

58:25

useful. Yeah, is it useful? Such a

58:27

great question. I'm so glad you asked

58:30

me that because I don't want it

58:32

to seem like I'm saying always be

58:34

here right now. Yeah. No, no, no,

58:36

no. No, that's not what I'm saying.

58:39

In fact, this capacity to mentally time

58:41

travel, just like you did with your,

58:43

what did you have for dinner last

58:45

night, right? Is so useful for us.

58:47

In fact, it may be the thing

58:50

that defines us in our evolutionary advantage

58:52

as human beings, right? You heard about.

58:54

me talking about that a little bit

58:56

in the TED Talk, but it's not

58:59

just about time traveling, it's also about

59:01

mind traveling. So mind traveling is essentially

59:03

putting yourself in the shoes and mind

59:05

of somebody else. So both of those

59:08

are really really powerful things to do.

59:10

When we talk about mindfulness, it's really,

59:12

it's a solution to a vulnerability in

59:14

our capacity to do both of those

59:16

things. So the problem with time travel,

59:19

though it's extremely useful. for productively reflecting

59:21

or planning. It becomes problematic under certain

59:23

states. And I do think of the

59:25

athletes, like my heart goes out to

59:28

them, oftentimes when I see mess-ups, right?

59:30

Like you did something, you totally messed

59:32

up, and it happens, you glitched. If

59:34

you can't stop rewining the mind, you

59:36

are no way gonna be able to

59:39

succeed in the next moment. So how

59:41

do you get yourself to not rewind?

59:43

Very good, right? Or... Amicia, that's really

59:45

good. Yeah, and I think that the

59:48

other part is, you may be in

59:50

and on necessarily the athletic setting, but

59:52

in our, like even during COVID, like

59:54

if you can't stop catastrophizing and worrying

59:56

about... the future. You got it. You're

59:59

stuck. You're going to probably have a

1:00:01

lot of anxiety. So the reason we

1:00:03

want to, and frankly, the same thing

1:00:05

goes with mind traveling. If I'm constantly

1:00:08

preoccupied about your view of me, social

1:00:10

anxiety is going to set in. So

1:00:12

the reason mindfulness became such an important

1:00:14

solution for me, going back to why

1:00:16

we study in my lab, is because

1:00:19

each of those things ruminating about the

1:00:21

past, hijack attention. It depletes attention. Gosh,

1:00:23

it's so good. So you're describing from

1:00:25

a scientific standpoint all the things that

1:00:28

people listening to this go, I know

1:00:30

this is true. Yeah. And I think

1:00:32

this, the rewinding thing, man, it's just

1:00:34

huge. So many people are in the

1:00:37

rewind and just beating themselves up and

1:00:39

repeating the same story over and over

1:00:41

again. But the other thing that I've

1:00:43

figured out is that oftentimes stress is

1:00:45

time travel in the future. It's not

1:00:48

so much the speech you have to

1:00:50

give, or the sale you have to

1:00:52

close, or the putt you have to

1:00:54

hit, that is stressing you out. It's

1:00:57

you projecting into the future the negative

1:00:59

result of it, and then on top

1:01:01

of that, what other people are going

1:01:03

to think or say about you when

1:01:05

you miss the putt, when you don't

1:01:08

close the sale. Is that not true?

1:01:10

Exactly. You describe both the mind travel

1:01:12

and the time travel, right? Those are

1:01:14

what I would really call the kryptonite

1:01:17

scenarios. and you're draining it out, you're

1:01:19

draining the fuel. in spinning in those

1:01:21

directions. So how do you, you know,

1:01:23

it's easy to say, well don't do

1:01:25

that. Get back to here and now.

1:01:28

It's easy to say it. It's very

1:01:30

hard to do because the tendencies are

1:01:32

so strong. So you got to train

1:01:34

for it. Just like anything else, it's

1:01:37

hard to do. You were going to

1:01:39

give us one other, I think anything

1:01:41

else that's hard to do. You were

1:01:43

going to give us one other, I

1:01:45

think you're going to give us one

1:01:48

other, I think you're going to train

1:01:50

for it, just like anything else that's

1:01:52

hard to do. That's hard to do.

1:01:54

That's hard to do. Just like anything

1:01:57

else that's hard to do. That's hard

1:01:59

to do. That's hard to do. That's

1:02:01

hard to do. That's hard to do.

1:02:03

That's hard to do. the stop practice,

1:02:06

literally STOP, and do it while you're

1:02:08

driving. Do it while you're walking. Do

1:02:10

it at any time you want. Stop

1:02:12

is stop. Like, whatever the progression of

1:02:14

your life is in that moment, halt

1:02:17

it. Take a breath, and that's this

1:02:19

conscious breath aware that you're doing it.

1:02:21

Observe, oh. Proceed. B. So

1:02:24

it's just, it's a mini mindfulness practice and

1:02:26

I really think it's useful because you know

1:02:28

where your flashlight is at the end of

1:02:30

it. I know it's right here right now,

1:02:32

I'm back. So use stop signs, use red

1:02:34

lights to remind yourself to do that over

1:02:36

and over again. So good. I'm just thinking

1:02:38

of something. When you asked me to do

1:02:41

that, I actually did it with you and

1:02:43

I actually noticed a couple things in my

1:02:45

visual space that have been here the entire

1:02:47

time that I didn't see. And we're going

1:02:49

a little bit deeper probably than I should,

1:02:51

but there's a lot of things that your

1:02:53

brain does on habit mode, correct? Like if

1:02:55

I'm driving to work and I take the

1:02:58

same off ramp every single day, I think

1:03:00

my brain is storing energy by doing something

1:03:02

that's habitual. That's how I've always understood it

1:03:04

anyways, that I'm taking that same off ramp,

1:03:06

whether I'm right or wrong, it doesn't matter.

1:03:08

The point that I want to make about

1:03:10

that is that. For me,

1:03:12

I think for most people being present

1:03:14

is even though yes, there's a benefit

1:03:16

to being in the future and rewining

1:03:19

There's a benefit to being reflective and

1:03:21

reminiscing in the past and gaining wisdom

1:03:23

from it But for most of us,

1:03:25

that's not a struggle for most people

1:03:27

the struggle for most people is being

1:03:29

present And that's why this is so

1:03:31

important what you're teaching here and for

1:03:33

me. There's so many things in a

1:03:35

given day that mindfulness practices make me

1:03:37

just aware of being present that I'm

1:03:39

curious as to in practical application How

1:03:41

much time a day? I know there's

1:03:43

no formula, but if you were just

1:03:45

saying, hey, Ed, I'd recommend to you,

1:03:47

it's 10 minutes a day. It's five

1:03:49

different times a day. It's once a

1:03:51

day. Do it at the same time

1:03:54

of the day. Doesn't matter when you

1:03:56

do it. What would your advice be

1:03:58

on just building this practice? As the

1:04:00

habit aspect? Yeah. Well, I mean, the

1:04:02

last line of the title is invest

1:04:04

12 minutes a day. So that gives

1:04:06

you a sense of, and that number

1:04:08

comes out of many studies that have

1:04:10

suggested. You know, if you get to

1:04:12

that mount, we tend to see benefits,

1:04:14

and the more you do from that,

1:04:16

the more you do from that, the

1:04:18

more you benefit. But if you don't

1:04:20

quite get to that, it's going to

1:04:22

build my physical fitness. Probably not. It's

1:04:24

not going to be bad for you,

1:04:26

but you're not going to be bad

1:04:29

for you. read more about it, but just

1:04:31

know that it comes from a lot of... I did,

1:04:33

I just want them to. A lot of research, yeah,

1:04:35

I know, I know, but I'm just saying, but your

1:04:37

question regarding when to do it

1:04:39

and the habit issue is the best

1:04:41

time to do it is when you're

1:04:43

going to do it. Okay. And that's

1:04:45

kind of maybe a cop out, but

1:04:47

literally the key to anything, and you'd

1:04:49

probably say the same thing regarding physical

1:04:51

excellence, right? the key is advantageing your

1:04:53

capacity to create it and incorporate it

1:04:55

into daily routine. And so what I

1:04:57

suggest for people, like I just said

1:04:59

with when we were doing the short

1:05:01

practice, if you think you can do

1:05:03

three minutes, set the goal of a

1:05:05

minute and a half and get the win of

1:05:08

I did it, I did it, and yoke it

1:05:10

to something that you already do. You know, my

1:05:12

recommendation is something that you know you're going to

1:05:14

do every day without exception, maybe right after you

1:05:16

brush your teeth in the morning, or maybe right

1:05:19

before you have your cup of coffee, sometime that

1:05:21

you know you're going to do it. And what

1:05:23

I would suggest is just to play around with

1:05:25

when that works for you is to try it

1:05:27

at different times of the day. What many people

1:05:30

say when we say, try the morning, you know,

1:05:32

play around with the time of day, is like people

1:05:34

say things like, like, I love the taste of my

1:05:36

taste of my coffee, taste it. Gosh it's so true

1:05:38

I can't you know so so and why you're depriving

1:05:40

yourself of that right why are we rushing

1:05:42

through I mean you're gonna have the coffee

1:05:44

anyway why not have a little bit more

1:05:47

pleasure with that experience I have to just say

1:05:49

though I I was gonna tell you off camera but

1:05:51

I'm so glad you said this because I forgot yeah

1:05:53

which is that I just want to give everybody the

1:05:55

gift of this that I'm by the way I'm nowhere

1:05:57

near where you would be or other people I don't

1:06:00

I think there's rankings either by the

1:06:02

way. It's not a judgment thing, but

1:06:04

my sensory experiences just in general have

1:06:06

been so dramatically increased by this practice.

1:06:08

And people always say to me. that

1:06:10

there's this duality, maybe one of the

1:06:13

reason they've been like me is that

1:06:15

maybe I'm sort of like a masculine

1:06:17

dude, but I'm very emotional and very

1:06:19

sensitive. I don't know that I've always

1:06:21

been that way, but like, I do

1:06:24

find that I experience my emotions on

1:06:26

a deeper level over the last decade

1:06:28

or so, that my laughter is a

1:06:30

little deeper and more joyous. The taste

1:06:32

of food is a little bit more

1:06:35

pleasurable. my acknowledgement and noticing beauty around

1:06:37

me and the nuances and specificities of

1:06:39

it and not just the visual but

1:06:41

smells and wind hitting my face. I

1:06:43

know this sounds ridiculous to some people.

1:06:46

It's just richer because of this practice,

1:06:48

never mind being far more present and

1:06:50

productive. And I think also for me,

1:06:52

peak is such a word that I've

1:06:54

used over and over. When I'm fully

1:06:57

present, it appears to me that I've

1:06:59

got better access to my vocabulary, better

1:07:01

access to insights in reading somebody. Do

1:07:03

you, similar experience for you? I mean,

1:07:05

for sure, and it can be life-saving

1:07:08

in many ways. And actually, you described

1:07:10

the... the plus side and I think

1:07:12

it's so it's so great it's like

1:07:14

almost like you mean I can just

1:07:16

have more joy by being here more

1:07:19

yeah you can but there's another part

1:07:21

that I think is very important in

1:07:23

the context of our action and our

1:07:25

humanity we're also more present to the

1:07:27

suffering of other people we're also more

1:07:30

connected to other people we also have

1:07:32

more sense and respect for the humanity

1:07:34

of others around us and for the

1:07:36

environment and I think that at this

1:07:38

particular point kind of in our human

1:07:41

history. We need to be more aware

1:07:43

of what the heck is going on.

1:07:45

We have very little time to like

1:07:47

try to make things better for our

1:07:49

planet for example and also with all

1:07:52

the injustices happening and you know I

1:07:54

was talking recently to somebody regarding this

1:07:56

notion of burnout and you know so

1:07:58

many people are feeling so burnt out,

1:08:00

can mindfulness help with burnout? And the

1:08:03

answer is yes, mindfulness can help with

1:08:05

burnout, but you know, actually in the

1:08:07

context of a conference I was at

1:08:09

with critical care nurses. Now we know

1:08:11

over COVID, that has been a group

1:08:14

that has been very, very crunched, right?

1:08:16

And the question was, can mindfulness help

1:08:18

me with burnout? And I said, yes.

1:08:20

And they said, but then, the system

1:08:22

that the organization of the scheduling is

1:08:25

the reason I feel burnt out. And

1:08:27

I was like, yes, but there's no

1:08:29

way you're going to demand change or

1:08:31

even conceptualize how to create change if

1:08:33

you don't have the capacity to see

1:08:35

what's going on. So just, you know,

1:08:38

use that as the next step to

1:08:40

give back to those who may not

1:08:42

have this. capacity yet. It's like as

1:08:44

the more present we are, the more

1:08:46

we can enact change and empower other

1:08:49

people to do the same. You're so

1:08:51

right, and I know you know you're

1:08:53

right, but people have told me that

1:08:55

the last 10 years or so, I'm

1:08:57

just using practical experience for me. You're

1:09:00

more patient than you used to be.

1:09:02

That's sort of more like a symptom

1:09:04

almost, that it is more what you

1:09:06

have described, which is that I try

1:09:08

to be present with people and see

1:09:11

them. and hear them and experience them.

1:09:13

more than fix them like I used

1:09:15

to. And try to truly empathize and

1:09:17

understand their experience and their reality. And

1:09:19

I've always felt since I started this,

1:09:22

like I wish more of, I don't

1:09:24

care what political part of your part,

1:09:26

I wish more political people had that

1:09:28

ability for empathy and understanding and just

1:09:30

stopped and listened to people and didn't

1:09:33

assess it all the time. And I'm

1:09:35

not exaggerating when I say that I

1:09:37

attribute some, if not most of them.

1:09:39

that to these practices. Because obviously I'm

1:09:41

a performer, a peat performer, expert person

1:09:44

supposedly, but it's the other benefits of

1:09:46

doing this that have enriched my life

1:09:48

far more than the fact that I've

1:09:50

made more money because I'm more present

1:09:52

with people or these other things. I'm

1:09:55

actually curious about this. What about memory?

1:09:57

So is it that my memory can

1:09:59

be improved because of this because I

1:10:01

was actually present in more moments so

1:10:03

I have better recall because my attention

1:10:06

was where I was more often? Or

1:10:08

is it that there's something happening in

1:10:10

my brain where I'm developing the ability

1:10:12

to recall and remember things better? Pretty

1:10:14

good question, huh? Yes. Yeah, right? So,

1:10:17

is it, because you can say, well,

1:10:19

yeah, your memory is better, well, maybe

1:10:21

that's just because I was more present,

1:10:23

or is there actually something operating in

1:10:25

my brain where there's a new mylin

1:10:28

forming in my brain? I don't know.

1:10:30

Well, first of all, everything, this conversation

1:10:32

is changing your brain. I mean, I

1:10:34

don't just mean because it's some kind

1:10:36

of massively transformative thing. Every experience we

1:10:39

have. impacts the way our brain functions.

1:10:41

So there's no like, there's no divide

1:10:43

between experience and brain changes. They're just

1:10:45

happening concurrently, right? So yes, it is

1:10:47

the case. So you're such great, you're

1:10:50

such great intuition about neuroscience, it's awesome.

1:10:52

So yes, it is the case that

1:10:54

the more we can get. the more

1:10:56

attentive we are, the more granular, fine-grained

1:10:58

the inputs are for our memory. In

1:11:00

fact, attention is the gateway for memory.

1:11:03

If you don't pay attention, there's no

1:11:05

way that you're going to have the

1:11:07

experience of encoding episodes in your life

1:11:09

gaining new information. Now, there are aspects

1:11:11

of memory that are outside the scope

1:11:14

of something you need attention for, after

1:11:16

it's well learned. So for example, if

1:11:18

I tell you, tell me across the

1:11:20

board of a keyboard what the letters

1:11:22

are. I could tell you, but if

1:11:25

you give me a keyboard I can

1:11:27

type it. So that's an example of

1:11:29

something we call procedural memory, which is

1:11:31

you actually don't need your attention for

1:11:33

that. But for episodes and knowledge you

1:11:36

need attention to input the information. You

1:11:38

also need your attention to pull it

1:11:40

out. So remember we're talking about the

1:11:42

flashlight and your dinner meal? You have

1:11:44

to have... clarity of directing it to

1:11:47

call up the right thing. So it

1:11:49

is on both ends of that. And

1:11:51

frankly there's another thing to think about,

1:11:53

which is that you call, what did

1:11:55

you call? So yes, it ends up

1:11:58

that long-term memory is a structural change

1:12:00

within the brain. It actually becomes like

1:12:02

fixed hard in terms of neural connections

1:12:04

that occur. That process is helped by

1:12:06

having clarity of mind and actually just

1:12:09

kind of really tied the loose ends

1:12:11

of this conversation together. Current models suggest

1:12:13

maybe that's where all this mind-wandering is

1:12:15

actually happening. It may be a memory

1:12:17

encoding process. The reason the brain... pumps

1:12:20

out thoughts isn't because it's just trying

1:12:22

to mess with us, it's because that's

1:12:24

the way episodic memory and coding happens.

1:12:26

It's a replay button that just happens

1:12:28

by default and as it keeps replying

1:12:31

things kind of harden into long-term memory.

1:12:33

Oh, this is so good. All right.

1:12:35

Of course, I wonder what it did

1:12:37

to get peek mine. I want them

1:12:39

to get your book. The reason that

1:12:42

I want them to get the book

1:12:44

is because I think the application of

1:12:46

what you're teaching is different for many

1:12:48

different people. And I love things that

1:12:50

have broad applications. So I think if

1:12:53

you're an athlete, you want to read

1:12:55

this book. I think if you're someone

1:12:57

who wants to find a little bit

1:12:59

more bliss in your life and be

1:13:01

more present, I think this is a

1:13:04

book that you should have, that you

1:13:06

should have. is why I think this

1:13:08

work is so fascinating. It's why my

1:13:10

audience knows, I love every interview that

1:13:12

I do, I don't talk to people

1:13:15

that I don't want to share with

1:13:17

the world, but there are certain topics

1:13:19

that just fascinate me, because I like

1:13:21

to understand why some of the things

1:13:23

I teach work, I understand some of

1:13:26

it, and you're helping me so much

1:13:28

with that. Hi,

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$100 required. Bonus issued its non-withdrawable

1:14:24

profit boost tokens. Restrictions. Restrict and

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supply, including token expiration and Max-max

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expiration expiration. Very

1:14:30

short intermission here folks. I'm glad

1:14:32

you're enjoying the show so far.

1:14:35

Don't forget to follow the show

1:14:37

on Apple and Spotify Links are

1:14:39

in the show notes now on

1:14:42

to our next guest. I have

1:14:44

a real friend here today and

1:14:46

somebody that I admire Tremendously. He's

1:14:48

helped me. He's scanned my brain.

1:14:51

I think he's the foremost expert

1:14:53

on brain health on the planet.

1:14:55

He's a great friend of mine.

1:14:58

I love him very much. She's

1:15:00

a strong man of faith as

1:15:02

well. Dr. Daniel Aiman. as it

1:15:05

affects brain health. This is a

1:15:07

gamer, phone, etc. So combination question,

1:15:09

physical activity, and I've asked you

1:15:12

two two-parters today, because I think

1:15:14

they're somewhat connected. And is there

1:15:16

an age you think some child

1:15:18

should not be on social media?

1:15:21

As long as possible. If you

1:15:23

had kids again right now, would

1:15:25

your 10-year-old be on social or

1:15:28

no? No. No. No. No, because

1:15:30

why? Apple and Facebook and TikTok,

1:15:32

they work with neuroscientists to keep

1:15:35

you there longer. Their goal is

1:15:37

mindshare. And that's not okay, because

1:15:39

they're stealing the minds of this

1:15:41

generation. I mean, on average people

1:15:44

are spending. three and a half

1:15:46

four hours on social media just

1:15:48

imagine what you could do with

1:15:51

that time. So put screens off

1:15:53

as long as humanly you can

1:15:55

and get them to exercise. But

1:15:58

it's coordination exercises. Remember we talked

1:16:00

about the cerebellum? Yes. It's tennis

1:16:02

and table tennis and pickleball, racquetball.

1:16:04

Those are really great for brain

1:16:07

development because the cerebellum I'm getting

1:16:09

old and people don't remember Rodney

1:16:11

Dangerfield. I sure did. So. Horrifying.

1:16:14

Horrifying for me. I get no

1:16:16

respect. Sarah Bellums, this Rodney Dangerfield

1:16:18

part of the brain. 10% of

1:16:21

the brain's volume, but has half

1:16:23

of the brain's neurons. And, yeah,

1:16:25

I'm not a fan of hitting

1:16:28

soccer balls. with your head. You

1:16:30

said that multiple times. Yeah. Or

1:16:32

letting kids play tackle football. I

1:16:34

did the big NFL study. When

1:16:37

the NFL was sort of lying,

1:16:39

they had a problem with traumatic

1:16:41

brain injury and football. And now

1:16:44

everybody knows it's true. Why would

1:16:46

you put a developing brain in

1:16:48

a position to have damage? Think

1:16:51

about that. Your brain, and most

1:16:53

people don't know this, but your

1:16:55

brain is not finished developing until

1:16:57

you're 25. So there's this process

1:17:00

called myelinization. So your neurons, your

1:17:02

brain cells, get wrapped with a

1:17:04

white fatty substance called myelin, sort

1:17:07

of like insulation on a copper

1:17:09

wire. And once they're myelinated, they

1:17:11

work 10 to 100 times faster.

1:17:14

So this is where maturity happens.

1:17:16

Myelinization. Well, it starts in the

1:17:18

back when you're two months old,

1:17:20

right? Babies can see, and when

1:17:23

you smile at them, they smile

1:17:25

back. your prefrontal cortex, largest in

1:17:27

humans than any other animal by

1:17:30

far, focus forth on judgment, impulse

1:17:32

control, organ. planning, empathy, learning from

1:17:34

the mistakes you make. It's not

1:17:37

finished developing until you're 25, which

1:17:39

is why I'm not a fan

1:17:41

of sending kids away to college

1:17:43

and have them join sororities and

1:17:46

fraternities with other underdeveloped brains. It's

1:17:48

just a prescription for a lot

1:17:50

of trauma and bad things to

1:17:53

happen. I got my hair cut

1:17:55

this morning and it's a young

1:17:57

lady that cuts my hair. She's

1:18:00

always asking me for advice, you

1:18:02

know, on life. And I said,

1:18:04

well, I said, you know, you'll

1:18:07

see these videos on social media.

1:18:09

Often when you ask somebody towards

1:18:11

the end of their life, they'll

1:18:13

say, what are your regrets? And

1:18:16

it's not typically, I wish I'd

1:18:18

have worked more. It's typically, I

1:18:20

wish I'd have worked more. It's

1:18:23

typically, I wish I'd have worked

1:18:25

more. It's typically, I wish I'd

1:18:27

have been more present in my

1:18:30

dreams. And she says, you know,

1:18:32

Ed, I think my generation at

1:18:34

the end of their life, when

1:18:36

we get there, they're going to

1:18:39

say their biggest regret is they

1:18:41

wish they spent less time on

1:18:43

their phones. They wish they spent

1:18:46

less time on social media, that

1:18:48

they wasted their lives away in

1:18:50

these digital devices and they weren't

1:18:53

present in the real world. And

1:18:55

I told her, I think you're

1:18:57

100% right. She goes, I know,

1:18:59

30 years from now, we'll be

1:19:02

watching my generation, my generation, say

1:19:04

this. So your point is so

1:19:06

incredibly profound. All right, this is

1:19:09

as usual, my conversations with you,

1:19:11

I wanna go 11 hours with

1:19:13

you. My guest today is Dr.

1:19:16

Andrew Huberman, and he's a neuroscientist,

1:19:18

his lab is at Stanford. Today's

1:19:20

gonna be one of the more

1:19:23

interesting shows for me that we've

1:19:25

ever done before because I'm fascinated

1:19:27

with this man's work. There's a

1:19:29

general societal belief about certain things.

1:19:32

So if that's true. But I've

1:19:34

also heard you say your thoughts

1:19:36

are a choice. So if it's

1:19:39

this involuntary process that's happening where

1:19:41

we've all sort of agreed to

1:19:43

this and we're almost pre-programmed through

1:19:46

a series of evolution to believe

1:19:48

certain... things. How is it also

1:19:50

that we choose our thoughts? Great

1:19:52

question. It's the question that neuroscientists

1:19:55

think about. And just as a

1:19:57

bit of a disclaimer, there's going

1:19:59

to be a little bit abstract,

1:20:02

but I promise to get concrete

1:20:04

and I'll do my best to

1:20:06

be as succinct as possible. So,

1:20:09

sickness is not the quality that's

1:20:11

typically associated with academics. What I

1:20:13

will promise, however, is I'll try

1:20:15

and use as few acronyms as

1:20:18

possible and I'll only name things

1:20:20

if I think it's going to

1:20:22

be important for people to go

1:20:25

look up more as opposed to

1:20:27

just raining terminology down on people

1:20:29

because that's not useful. So you're

1:20:32

absolutely right. The nervous system is

1:20:34

responsible for sensation, perception, feelings, thoughts,

1:20:36

actions, and memories. Let's talk about

1:20:38

what's non-negotiable. What's non-negotiable are the

1:20:41

sensations. I have receptors in my

1:20:43

eye. You have receptors in your

1:20:45

eye. We have receptors in our

1:20:48

skin and our tongue in our

1:20:50

ears, etc. that take physical events

1:20:52

in the universe of which there

1:20:55

are many and Can only Sense

1:20:57

some of those so for instance.

1:20:59

I'm not a pit viper. I

1:21:02

can't see in the infrared a

1:21:04

pit viper can I can see

1:21:06

in the infrared if I snap

1:21:08

on infrared goggles But if I

1:21:11

don't do that my I can't

1:21:13

sense those so I can't sense

1:21:15

magnetic fields. There are people that

1:21:18

claim that they can sense magnetic

1:21:20

fields. If they can, it's an

1:21:22

unusual quality. It hasn't been shown

1:21:25

very robustly in the lab. Turtles,

1:21:27

on the other hand, and navigate

1:21:29

extremely long distances by virtue of

1:21:31

magnetic fields. They are magneto-sensing organisms.

1:21:34

So the things that we can

1:21:36

pull out of the universe and

1:21:38

into our nervous system to work

1:21:41

with, those are fixed entities. Now

1:21:43

a color blind person, one in

1:21:45

80 males is red-green green color

1:21:48

blind. They can't see red as

1:21:50

the way you and I can.

1:21:52

My dog is red green colored

1:21:54

wine. So there are some unusual

1:21:57

cases, but in the absence of

1:21:59

any technology. the sensations that we

1:22:01

can detect are fixed. They

1:22:03

are non-negotiable as much as

1:22:05

gravity is non-negotiable. We have

1:22:08

to develop technologies to overcome

1:22:10

them if we want to

1:22:12

see into the infrared or

1:22:14

see ultraviolet light, etc.

1:22:16

Okay, now perceptions, feelings,

1:22:19

thoughts, those are where it gets

1:22:21

negotiable. Because, for instance, I

1:22:23

can decide that the color of your

1:22:25

shirt has meaning to me like we're

1:22:28

both wearing a black shirt and therefore

1:22:30

I'm we must have met in a

1:22:32

previous lifetime and pretty soon I start

1:22:34

to sound like a crazy person because

1:22:37

the definition of psychosis or crazy is

1:22:39

is assigning meaning to something for which

1:22:41

there's none right so we have to

1:22:43

agree as in as groups of

1:22:46

individuals and society what what sorts

1:22:48

of meanings matter And that's where

1:22:50

it gets very subjective. You know,

1:22:52

we have, we place value on the

1:22:54

fact that somebody who commits a crime

1:22:57

before the age 18 versus after 18,

1:22:59

we call them an adult. But developmental

1:23:01

trajectories are from birth to death and

1:23:04

not, there isn't some cliff that, you

1:23:06

know, biological event. So we could go

1:23:08

really deep down this rabbit hole or

1:23:11

not, and I'm, but what we know

1:23:13

is that sensations are non-negotiable. What we

1:23:15

know is that societies and the way

1:23:18

that we function as families and couples

1:23:20

and in the workplace, they obey

1:23:22

certain principles or rules of

1:23:24

engagement that on average are adaptive

1:23:27

for a given culture. So we

1:23:29

meet, we say hello, we agree

1:23:31

on these cultural things that because

1:23:33

on average they're adaptive, whereas if

1:23:35

we met and we decide first

1:23:37

we were gonna fight, first of

1:23:39

all, we both know you're gonna

1:23:41

win that, we're gonna physically fight.

1:23:43

And second of all, it's just

1:23:45

not adaptive for the evolution of

1:23:47

cultures, most cultures. There

1:23:49

are circumstances where that's appropriate.

1:23:52

So what's important for

1:23:54

us to understand is that the

1:23:56

human brain. is very very good at

1:23:58

all these things. Sensation percent. feeling thought

1:24:00

and action. It's also very good at

1:24:02

two other things. One is interoception, paying

1:24:05

attention to what's going on inside me,

1:24:07

and extraoception, paying attention to what's going

1:24:09

on in the outside world, and balancing

1:24:11

the weight of one or the other

1:24:14

in order to move adaptively through life.

1:24:16

Now, and I'll just throw this out

1:24:18

as one more kind of conceptual thing,

1:24:20

but as I promised I would make

1:24:22

it more concrete as opposed to abstract.

1:24:25

When we say it's adaptive. What we

1:24:27

mean is that this neural machinery in

1:24:29

our heads, literally, I've opened up a

1:24:31

lot of skulls, I've held a lot

1:24:33

of brains in my life, I teach

1:24:36

neuroanotomy to medical students. Now for 10

1:24:38

years, I promise you, it's just meat

1:24:40

in there, meat and some fluid. And

1:24:42

so the neurons of the brain take

1:24:44

sensations, and the only thing neurons can

1:24:47

do, the only language that they can

1:24:49

speak, is to be electrically active at

1:24:51

certain times. and in certain sequences, like

1:24:53

the keys on a piano. And it's

1:24:55

this amazing thing, like it still inspires

1:24:58

wondering me when I think about it,

1:25:00

that you do this, I do this,

1:25:02

and we agree on some common rules

1:25:04

of engagement that are adaptive. And it's

1:25:06

what led us out of caves, hunter-gatherer

1:25:09

cultures, technologies, the car, the plane, the

1:25:11

iPhone. It's amazing. And we are. I

1:25:13

think the important thing to remember is

1:25:15

that we are still in our evolution

1:25:17

as a species. We are still trying

1:25:20

to work out whether or not 10

1:25:22

hours a day with the smartphone is

1:25:24

good or bad for us. We're still

1:25:26

trying to figure out whether or not

1:25:28

traveling to other planets is good or

1:25:31

bad for us. What should we do

1:25:33

about this COVID thing? We are still

1:25:35

trying to work this out and the

1:25:37

language that we do to work that

1:25:40

out is a neural language. Yes. And

1:25:42

so I apologize if I made things

1:25:44

more abstract than before but you didn't.

1:25:46

We just have to agree on some

1:25:48

rules of a game just like if

1:25:51

we're going to play chess. We need

1:25:53

to set up some constraints. And so

1:25:55

those are the constraints in broad terms.

1:25:57

How do those so good? So no,

1:25:59

it's perfect because I want to. Now,

1:26:02

I want to move it into like

1:26:04

where we are in culture and also

1:26:06

performance, just what you just said. And

1:26:08

so I know what I teach, but

1:26:10

I don't know that I always know

1:26:13

why it works the way it does.

1:26:15

So these, this nervous system, I'd like

1:26:17

you to speak to, maybe it makes

1:26:19

no impact, I have an assumption that

1:26:21

it does, previous experience in life, and

1:26:24

does the importance of something in one's

1:26:26

life change one's sensory acuity to it?

1:26:28

So what I mean by that is.

1:26:30

There's this great debate right now about

1:26:32

racial and social issues. And so I

1:26:35

wonder, I've wondered if someone has not

1:26:37

had an experience with something, that they

1:26:39

literally perceive century wise less of it.

1:26:41

And if they've got a history of

1:26:43

some sort of a situation with a

1:26:46

racial issue or sexual abuse or something

1:26:48

like that, that they see or feel

1:26:50

more of it because it's important to

1:26:52

them. And perhaps that's why there are

1:26:54

certain things in society we can't come

1:26:57

to a consensus on. Because importance in

1:26:59

previous experience may change the way in

1:27:01

which we Gather this information and on

1:27:03

the other flip side of that Is

1:27:05

that also then true to? Program yourself

1:27:08

to win that when something is important

1:27:10

enough to you You begin to see

1:27:12

feel and hear things that will lead

1:27:14

you towards those particular goals that you

1:27:17

wouldn't see if it wasn't important in

1:27:19

terms of your sensory acuity or your

1:27:21

nervous system picking up on it, or

1:27:23

are they not correlated in any way?

1:27:25

Can you speak to both of those?

1:27:28

Sure. Again, a great set of questions.

1:27:30

So a moment ago I mentioned that

1:27:32

we have this interoception, which is really

1:27:34

just paying attention what's going on internally.

1:27:36

Like I could stop now and think

1:27:39

about how my stomach feels or my

1:27:41

breathing or my breathing or really go

1:27:43

internal or I can be externally focused.

1:27:45

And that's what the nervous system is

1:27:47

doing. The nervous system has some very

1:27:50

basic jobs. It wants to, so it

1:27:52

learns things, we're born into this world,

1:27:54

and the organization of the nervous system

1:27:56

when we come into this world is

1:27:58

not a complete. blank slate. It's designed

1:28:01

to learn. It's a learning machine. The

1:28:03

brain is amazing because it's the only

1:28:05

organ that wires up itself, which is

1:28:07

incredible. So it's a self-learning, self-building machine.

1:28:09

And for the early part of life,

1:28:12

the goal of the brain is twofold.

1:28:14

One is to maintain all the housekeeping

1:28:16

stuff. Keep the heart beating, keep digestion

1:28:18

going, keep breathing going at a minimum

1:28:20

to keep the organism alive, to keep

1:28:23

us alive. And then... It wants to

1:28:25

learn things that are specific to its

1:28:27

environment and learn the rules of these

1:28:29

sensations. Objects fall down, not up, right?

1:28:31

Mom walks in the room, she leaves

1:28:34

the room, she comes back, on average,

1:28:36

or doesn't, or on, you know, learning

1:28:38

these rules, contingencies, and then passing those

1:28:40

off to reflexive parts of the nervous

1:28:43

system. So just like a baby never

1:28:45

has to think about taking a breath

1:28:47

or governing its heartbeat with conscious thought.

1:28:49

The nervous system wants to learn things

1:28:51

and then push that to reflexive action.

1:28:54

It's a lot of work to do

1:28:56

what's called serial processing. It's not serial

1:28:58

like meat, but like serial as in

1:29:00

series. I know you know this, but

1:29:02

just for those, you know, maybe second

1:29:05

language, English, like language or something. So

1:29:07

serial processing is hard for the nervous

1:29:09

system. It's about thinking if A, then

1:29:11

B, then C, oh wait, was it

1:29:13

C? A, A, B, then C. It's

1:29:16

work. And it requires areas of the

1:29:18

brain that are. very metabolically costly to

1:29:20

engage. It's why thinking hard kind of

1:29:22

hurts. There's some strain associated with it.

1:29:24

So the more we experience something, the

1:29:27

more our reactions to it are gonna

1:29:29

become reflexive. For better or for worse.

1:29:31

If it's a bad event, the nervous

1:29:33

system or it creates a sensation that's

1:29:35

uncomfortable, the nervous system will create an

1:29:38

association whereby we naturally start to avoid

1:29:40

that thing, whether or not it's good

1:29:42

for us or bad for us. If

1:29:44

it's something that we like, we get

1:29:46

rewarded. and we want with a chemical

1:29:49

typically dopamine or serotonin and we want

1:29:51

to move toward that. again. And that

1:29:53

illustrates the other key feature of the

1:29:55

nervous system that I think will help

1:29:57

simplify some of this kind of overwhelming

1:30:00

number of things that the brain can

1:30:02

do and how it can do it,

1:30:04

which is we have in our brain

1:30:06

a few chemical systems that are called

1:30:09

neuromodulators. They're not responsible for the communication

1:30:11

between neurons. What they do is they

1:30:13

modulate or change the likelihood that certain

1:30:15

brain circuits will engage in other ones

1:30:17

won't. And they fall into very specific

1:30:20

categories. The most famous of these is

1:30:22

the neuromodulator dopamine. Dopamine is released anytime

1:30:24

we experience something we really, really like,

1:30:26

but under very specific conditions, any time

1:30:28

we are moving toward something and we

1:30:31

think we're on the right path. Dopamine

1:30:33

is released. And this is nature's way

1:30:35

of telling whatever neurons are active during

1:30:37

that movement down that path. So this

1:30:39

could be exercise, it could be a

1:30:42

relationship breakthrough, it could be a business

1:30:44

breakthrough, it could be learning some little

1:30:46

piece of a puzzle that you're excited

1:30:48

to learn, or you've been straining on.

1:30:50

It tells you more of that, more

1:30:53

of those neural symphonies or neurons being

1:30:55

active in the way they just were,

1:30:57

whatever you were doing just there, more

1:30:59

of that. So it sends you down

1:31:01

this path. And dopamine is very misunderstood.

1:31:04

People think dopamine is about getting the

1:31:06

reward. Dopamine is about sending you for

1:31:08

the reward. Think of it like a

1:31:10

jet propulsion system. Right? It's not that

1:31:12

just the finish line, it's a jet

1:31:15

propulsion system. And every animal needed that.

1:31:17

An animal that's- I'm going to give

1:31:19

it back to you. I just didn't

1:31:21

say something. I think it's one of

1:31:23

the most significant things ever said on

1:31:26

the show, honestly, and it explains my

1:31:28

own life experience or my relationships. I

1:31:30

want you to hear what he just

1:31:32

said, everybody, that you're getting more dopamine

1:31:34

on average in the pursuit of your

1:31:37

dream and your goal than you actually

1:31:39

do with the attainment of it. And

1:31:41

that maybe there's a little key here

1:31:43

to, if dopamine's sort of a happiness

1:31:46

drug, right? Do you want to call

1:31:48

it that? Could it not possibly be

1:31:50

true that one of the keys of

1:31:52

happiness in life is the pursuit of

1:31:54

something great, the pursuit of growth, and

1:31:57

that that's the key, that you don't

1:31:59

have to achieve everything, or to give

1:32:01

yourself the gift of happiness? I didn't

1:32:03

mean interrupt you, it's just, that's so

1:32:05

freaking significant, because I think a lot

1:32:08

of people sort of cheat themselves from

1:32:10

just the pursuit. Because they think, well,

1:32:12

I'll only be happy when I get

1:32:14

there. I'm not qualified. I haven't read

1:32:16

enough. I don't know enough people. I

1:32:19

don't have enough context. And they're not

1:32:21

happy. And what they're missing is the

1:32:23

science that tells us, actually, if you

1:32:25

just begin to pursue this and show

1:32:27

some progress towards it, that you're going

1:32:30

to get that happiness you're seeking that

1:32:32

you think you will only get when

1:32:34

you get there, correct? Absolutely. Absolutely. And

1:32:36

I'm so glad you bring this stuff

1:32:38

because, you know, there's some concepts from

1:32:41

psychology that we can start to weave

1:32:43

into this. You know, I can give

1:32:45

examples from evolutionary biology, you know, an

1:32:47

animal that's thirsty goes out looking for

1:32:49

water and when it finds that first

1:32:52

drop of clean water, dopamine is released,

1:32:54

but maybe that's not the big lake

1:32:56

that it needs, but that's going to

1:32:58

tells it. It's on the right path

1:33:00

and it's and dopamine naturally causes neuroplasticity

1:33:03

of whatever. brain circuits were active previously.

1:33:05

So it says, hey, whatever I did

1:33:07

to get to this point, this milestone,

1:33:09

not the finish line, that is something

1:33:12

that I might want to repeat reflexively

1:33:14

in the future. I might not want

1:33:16

to have to work so hard to

1:33:18

do that. Now, the cool thing about

1:33:20

dopamine, many cool things about dopamine, and

1:33:23

then it has a dark side. And

1:33:25

we should talk about the dark side

1:33:27

because even if, and I'm not, and

1:33:29

of course the dark side can be

1:33:31

associated with drugs of abuse like cocaine

1:33:34

and things, but actually there's a, there's

1:33:36

a more, even more sinister dark side

1:33:38

that I think a lot of people

1:33:40

fall into this trap. So the great

1:33:42

things about dopamine is it rewards us

1:33:45

and it gives us energy. And when

1:33:47

I say energy, I don't mean glycogen,

1:33:49

I don't mean glucose, neural energy. And

1:33:51

the reason is. effort of all

1:33:53

all kinds, whether or

1:33:56

not you're riding

1:33:58

with a pen, with

1:34:00