0:00

This week on the Eldrich

0:02

Law Curse. Travis Willingham mentioned

0:04

that there is a

0:06

critical role video game. And

0:08

I use them when I'm running

0:11

a bus. A bus? Sigil has

0:13

had a bumpy release. A bit

0:15

of draw steel. Codex. Companion Quest

0:18

is currently at Kickstarter.

0:20

All that and more. Right now! Hello

0:25

everyone and welcome to this week's

0:27

episode of the Eldridge Lawcast. The

0:30

number one tabletop RPG podcast in

0:32

all the realms. That's right. This

0:34

is where you come if you

0:36

want to warm up your theatre

0:38

vocals before you start your session

0:40

of D&D or whatever tabletop RPG

0:42

takes your fancy. If this is

0:44

the first time you've listened to

0:46

the lawcast then maybe listen a

0:48

couple minutes then decide whether you want

0:51

to give us... thumbs up,

0:53

like stars, whatever the podcast

0:55

platform you're listening to this

0:57

on desires. I'm Ben Byrne,

0:59

by the way, and I

1:01

am joined, as always, by

1:03

Sean Merwin, James Hake, Dale

1:06

Kingsmill. And Dale, I

1:08

have to ask, dice. What is

1:10

your dice situation? I have many

1:12

a dice. Many a dice set,

1:15

even. I do want to eat

1:17

the forbidden gemstones. I like

1:19

them a lot. I used

1:21

to be really particular about

1:23

keeping track of all of my dice

1:25

sets. And then I think it just

1:27

took, you know, once you have

1:29

too many dice trays or too

1:31

many things or you know. making

1:33

up a, you're like play testing

1:35

a class, you're designing it, you're

1:37

computer desk, but you've got this

1:40

stuff in your D&D bag that

1:42

you're running the other. Like once

1:44

everything gets split up a little bit and

1:46

you lose one die, it's all out the window.

1:48

It's all out the window. The other day I

1:50

found a D4 in a backpack I haven't

1:52

used in like five years. So, you know,

1:54

they'll turn up. So you're more of the

1:57

dice goblin kind of hoarder, like, wherever

1:59

they are. May they, you know, I'll

2:01

grab the dice that I need in

2:03

the moment. Yeah, it's not who I

2:06

wanted to be, but it was the

2:08

life chosen for me. Yeah, sure. Okay,

2:10

fair enough. Sean Merwin, what about yourself?

2:13

I did back in the day, I

2:15

have dice older than all y'all. Yeah,

2:17

but that's true. And they're, they're pretty

2:20

miserable looking. And I like them. I

2:22

get free dice from going to conventions

2:24

and running games a lot. So I

2:26

rarely buy dice. or accidentally taking away

2:29

from the table as you're running, you

2:31

know, eight games over a weekend. So

2:33

I bought the ugliest dice I could

2:36

find. There are these just white sort

2:38

of ivory bone-looking dice that no one

2:40

would ever want. And surprisingly, or not

2:43

surprisingly, they rarely get taken. I had

2:45

to buy an extra six-sider and an

2:47

extra eight-sider that had wandered away at

2:50

some point just at the last convention

2:52

I was at to make... four sets.

2:54

So I would always have four of

2:57

any dye I might need. And that's

2:59

about it. I'm not a big collector.

3:01

I'm not into shiny things. So I

3:03

go back to using, you know, drawing

3:06

paper out of a hat, numbered one

3:08

to 20. If it came to that,

3:10

because by God, I love role-playing games.

3:13

So, hey, if dice are there, then

3:15

I will use dice. Yeah, I'm kind

3:17

of similar in terms of not being

3:20

a big collector. I mean, I do

3:22

have my four sets of D20s that

3:24

have the red set, the main D20

3:27

that I roll, when I say four

3:29

sets of D20, I mean, four sets

3:31

of D20, I mean, four sets of

3:34

D20, I mean, four sets of role

3:36

playing dices in D10, or whatever. The

3:38

red set are my favorite set I've

3:40

had them since the first session I'm

3:43

playing against D&D party. Other than that.

3:45

I have no sentimentality for role-playing dice.

3:47

I do not get character dice. I

3:50

don't really care all that much about

3:52

the metal dice or whatever, except weirdly.

3:54

That changes when I'm war gaming. Then

3:57

I want the faction dice of the

3:59

specific faction that I'm playing for, I

4:01

don't know, extra. extra juice, so to

4:04

speak, but maybe that's because that's more

4:06

competitive. James Hake, what about yourself? No,

4:08

no, Ben, I want to talk about

4:11

you a little more. I have a

4:13

hunch that these faction dice, you know,

4:15

role-playing game characters kind of come and

4:17

go, you know, and you know, and

4:20

you're playing game characters, kind of come

4:22

and go, you know, and you GM

4:24

a lot, you know, and you GM

4:27

a lot, and you know, and you

4:29

GM a GM, you know, you know,

4:31

you know, you know, you, you, you,

4:34

you, you, you, you're, you're, you're, you're,

4:36

you're, you're, you're, you're, you're, you're, you're,

4:38

you're, you're, you're, you're, you're, you're, you're,

4:41

you're, you're, you're, you're, you're, you're, you're,

4:43

you're, you're, you're, you're, We've cracked it.

4:45

We've cracked it. You're getting psychoanalyzed right

4:47

now. Yeah. Because I'm just the exact

4:50

same way. You know, I often GM

4:52

and I don't buy a dice for

4:54

a campaign. I've got a huge thing

4:57

of dice hanging around. Every now and

4:59

then I'll get a cool set of

5:01

dice for Christmas that are, they're like

5:04

black and they have this sharp sort

5:06

of game science style angle angle angle

5:08

on them, but they have this really

5:11

like finally detailed. hand-painted like cherry blossoms

5:13

on them. They're just like they're a

5:15

work of art. And so, you know,

5:18

I got them as a gift. I

5:20

want to use them. But I've got

5:22

more Chessex dice and I know what

5:24

to do with. So, I'm going to

5:27

make a character around dice I already

5:29

own. It's funny though, because I think

5:31

the closest I have to a sentimental

5:34

set of dice. is probably, and I've

5:36

probably mentioned this before, but I have,

5:38

it's just like an ornery, like pretty,

5:41

but, you know, resin, set of Chessex

5:43

purple dice. But I keep them separate

5:45

from all my other dice and I

5:48

use them when I'm running a bus

5:50

in combat. For my players, a boss,

5:52

a boss, a bus, a bus. I

5:55

thought this was some Aussie slang I

5:57

didn't know. When I'm running a boss

5:59

in combat. When I'm running a boss

6:01

baddy in combat, I use this purple

6:04

set of dice because I always start

6:06

with the spiel where like the first

6:08

time I ever rolled this die. on

6:11

a net 20, like a little psych

6:13

tactic. In chat they're talking about new

6:15

players and dice and dice can be

6:18

a huge draw. Dice are the perfect,

6:20

come here, get some candy for those

6:22

new players. Oh here's your very own

6:25

set of dice and now you have

6:27

to come back and play with me

6:29

for the next three years every week

6:32

because I've obviously I gifted you these

6:34

dice. They do make for a good

6:36

gift but when you were talking before

6:38

James it did make me think this

6:41

doesn't happen to me very often probably

6:43

because most people I played D&D. with

6:45

no my dice personality in quotation marks

6:48

reasonably well how often do you all

6:50

get gifted dice just as a like

6:52

Christmas party or it's a you know

6:55

a birthday from a friend who's an

6:57

acquaintance but not like they're not gonna

6:59

go out of their way to splurge

7:02

or anything? Yeah not often. Gifted dice

7:04

that often yeah that's interesting now that

7:06

I think about I get gifted lots

7:09

of like random other sort of accessory

7:11

things. Dice to me like... sorry I've

7:13

trying to balance them on my hand

7:15

you know I've got this... got a

7:18

little bag and there's a jam pack

7:20

full of dice trying to find room

7:22

so I can find one dye in

7:25

particular you know the the dice that

7:27

are special to me are ones that

7:29

like came from a certain con or

7:32

from a certain place back when critical

7:34

role was that sort of peak popularity,

7:36

critical mass of critical role, and like,

7:39

you know, end of campaign one, start

7:41

of campaign two, people who were like

7:43

dice makers, I met them at GenCon

7:46

when the first Taldori guide was coming

7:48

out. They would be like, take my

7:50

Gilmore's glorious goods scene dye that has

7:52

like the Gilmore's unicorn logo on it,

7:55

or, oh my God, they're all over

7:57

the place, they're everywhere! Dice can be

7:59

like glitter, in a random bag. Yeah.

8:02

I gave my wife a metal set

8:04

of dice that it wasn't really a

8:06

gift, it's just that she doesn't care

8:09

about dice. So I was like, well,

8:11

you keep losing your own sets of

8:13

dice. Here's a set of metal dice

8:16

that I got gifted. You can use

8:18

these. She was like, oh, I love

8:20

these. is a pretty, these are wonderful.

8:22

Then they spilled out of her bag

8:25

into the boot of her car, scattered

8:27

around the back of her car, and

8:29

I wasn't allowed to take them out

8:32

because then she considered them lucky, just

8:34

rolling around in the boot of her

8:36

car. And I think they're still there.

8:39

Every now and again, we'll put one

8:41

out of a grocery bag. Like what

8:43

the hell? A fan in Nepal gave

8:46

this to me at GenCon 50 when

8:48

the original Taldora guide came out. And

8:50

you know, it's a unicorn to anyone,

8:53

but it's the Gilmore's glorious goods unicorn

8:55

to me. That's a good one. That's

8:57

a good one. Well, speaking of dice,

8:59

brushing up on a little bit of

9:02

news from last week, because it was

9:04

a lighter news week this week, which

9:06

is nice because it's a little less

9:09

intense than last week was. Anyway, Hero

9:11

Forge, have launched a kickstarter, introducing custom

9:13

dice. to something that they are going

9:16

to provide through their digital platform that

9:18

can then be purchased and printed. These

9:20

are clear dice sets that can be

9:23

filled with props, weapons, familiars, or even

9:25

custom character D20s where you can put

9:27

the bust of your miniature that you

9:30

designed through Hero Forge into the dice.

9:32

They have two sizes of D20, a

9:34

sort of standard size and an extra

9:36

large size. And I think if your

9:39

character is small enough, you can actually

9:41

fit a whole character. inside the extra

9:43

large D20. Apparently there's no balance issues

9:46

whatsoever. All the dice have been tested.

9:48

Uh-huh. Which is, yeah, yeah, we, we,

9:50

we, we, nine, nine, nine. Mainly because

9:53

you can like adjust where inside the

9:55

dice the prop that you're embedding in

9:57

it. It's fine, like it's not just

10:00

in the center, it's, you know, move

10:02

it around wherever you want. Does this

10:04

appeal to anybody to anybody in light

10:07

of the conversation we've just had? unbalanced

10:09

dice are really so like they're not

10:11

weighted you know what I mean so

10:13

it's like I highly doubt that they

10:16

are properly balanced especially because people are,

10:18

you know, they're meant to be printed

10:20

on demand and so you can't, you

10:23

can't make that clear. Anyway, but having

10:25

said that, I don't think it is

10:27

gonna be unbalanced to a degree that

10:30

matters and I'm not someone who cares

10:32

about that stuff. So it's like, yeah,

10:34

go on. Oh yeah. Roll that little

10:37

half leg around. Yeah. That's what I

10:39

got in my head as well is

10:41

just. My character having a bad time

10:44

getting rolled around for the familiar, you

10:46

know. The one way this kind of

10:48

got me though, was the idea of

10:50

like putting props associated with a specific

10:53

character. into your dice. I think one

10:55

of the examples they use is like

10:57

TNT, a little dynamite stick, if you're

11:00

playing like, I don't know, an artifice

11:02

or some kind of rogue or something,

11:04

if you're playing, let's say, a monster

11:07

hunter, or if you're playing a ranger,

11:09

you could put arrows into the the

11:11

D8s or the D6s, or the D6s,

11:14

whatever, that could be a fun idea.

11:16

But before then, when you create the

11:18

character, how often, are you as a

11:21

bow anymore, just... out of curiosity. I

11:23

think it's a good point, but it's

11:25

also kind of where basically you tempt

11:27

fate. I think it's tempting fate. Let's,

11:30

I'm going to use that term, because

11:32

invariably as soon as you go to

11:34

Hero Forge, you craft a miniature, you

11:37

get it posted to yourself, you paint

11:39

that miniature. the character dies. I love

11:41

that you think most people are painting

11:44

their miniature, but go on. That's the

11:46

whole reason why Hero Force lets you

11:48

color the miniature in in-app now, you

11:51

know. Which, by the way, Michael Inchat

11:53

did point out that the weight distribution

11:55

wouldn't change if the things inside the

11:57

dice are made of the same material

12:00

as the stuff around it. Yeah, I

12:02

would have to double check the kickstarter

12:04

page to know that for sure. Now

12:07

that's interesting. If it's made of the

12:09

same stuff, how could you tell... What's

12:11

in it? I don't know, because are

12:14

you, because Ben, you said that they

12:16

get printed, right? Like, same as Euroforge

12:18

style. That's my impression. Again, you'd have

12:21

to check the, check the kickstarter page,

12:23

but from the look of these things,

12:25

I'm going to say, honestly, it looks

12:28

like they print the prop, and then

12:30

they, and then they encase it like

12:32

in, you know, dice. I was going

12:34

to say, how do you 3D print?

12:37

Okay, Scarlet Month is saying 3D printed

12:39

resin, but then, but would the. I

12:41

just don't, this is a genuine question,

12:44

how does 3D printing result in a

12:46

see-through thing such that you can see

12:48

the other stuff? It just feels like

12:51

that. I guess, but it just seems

12:53

to me like that process would, because

12:55

it's such a stringy process, is the

12:58

thing and stringy process. Not necessarily a

13:00

clear thing be a white thing. I

13:02

love this Christmas model though, really folks.

13:05

Your thing is inside there. You can't

13:07

see it. But trust us. Yeah, that's

13:09

going to be my business. That would

13:11

be 50 dollars. I love it. We're

13:14

going to get a lot of comments

13:16

on this because there's so many people

13:18

who are going to know way more

13:21

about this. Yeah, but my understanding of

13:23

3D printing is what you're thinking of,

13:25

Dale, is I can't think, I don't

13:28

know the terms, but an older version

13:30

of 3D printing, or at least an

13:32

alternative. modern 3D printer's work is kind

13:35

of, this is my impression, is that

13:37

it's kind of like the resin is

13:39

a goo and the printer kind of

13:42

reaches down and pulls the shape up

13:44

out of the goo and like flashes

13:46

it with UV light in layers to

13:48

kind of harden it as it's pulling

13:51

it up. I believe that's how, kind

13:53

of like a very very layman's explanation

13:55

of how it works. That's cool. modern

13:58

3D printers. Yeah! I love this. I

14:00

love this. Well, it's, you know, from

14:02

the 1800s. Lord and Lady Mills in

14:05

chat is saying resin versus filament. That

14:07

makes sense. Pats in chat said PLA

14:09

versus SLA, but I think it's much

14:12

funnier to read that is pla versus

14:14

la. Okay, so that's great. That's. So

14:16

that's making things make much more sense

14:19

to me. Okay. Yeah. So filament is

14:21

the kind of, they spool it up

14:23

like ice cream and resin is, they

14:25

kind of flash it with UV light

14:28

as being pulled up. Do you then

14:30

still have to, like, is each color

14:32

going to have to be its own,

14:35

like, part of the process? Like, you

14:37

sat down the different spools of different

14:39

colors, right? Yeah. Get me up, chat.

14:42

I'm now fascinated by what's happening. I

14:44

wouldn't know how they would create the.

14:46

the color. Hero Forge miniatures when you

14:49

preorder them in color, or order them

14:51

in color I suppose, not preorder. We

14:53

did a whole party that way and

14:55

they look all right, but there is

14:58

definitely a sort of pasteli faded quality

15:00

to them that I'm not sure whether

15:02

they're using colored resin or whether they're

15:05

kind of staining the resin after the

15:07

fact is hard for me to tell.

15:09

Somebody might know. The color printing is

15:12

apparently a patented secret from Hero Forge.

15:14

So there you go, says Skylamoth. But

15:16

yeah, I don't know, that's cool. If

15:19

you like Dice, go check out the

15:21

Kickstarter, I suppose. They are expensive though.

15:23

The price is a little exe starting

15:26

at 39 U.S.D. for a single D20

15:28

and a full set of RPG dice

15:30

are going to set you back 200

15:32

U.S. dollars or $199. So, you love

15:35

your dice. Yeah. To be fair, people

15:37

paying that kind of money for fancy

15:39

dice. Every day. It's a thing for

15:42

a lot of people. And then I

15:44

mean, maybe if you're a person who

15:46

really wants yours to be hyper customized

15:49

to your character, maybe that's worth it.

15:51

Exactly. It is not for me to

15:53

decide. Would I want a solid copper

15:56

D20 that would go funk satisfying on

15:58

my table when I roll it or

16:00

do I want it with, you know,

16:03

my personal halfling inside? I think the

16:05

hamster ball D20 is so charming I

16:07

would shell out 60 bucks for it.

16:09

Maybe only once, but... Otter loops. Resilient

16:12

spheres. Resilient spheres. That's what I've imagined.

16:14

Well speaking of things that are resilient.

16:16

Critical Roll's brand is pretty resilient and

16:19

has lasted 10 years now. And recently

16:21

they did an interview, I believe this

16:23

was for Business Insider. I was gonna

16:26

say something different, but then I read

16:28

my notes. It was a Business Insider

16:30

interview talking about celebrating their 10th year

16:33

anniversary, which is this year. The main

16:35

interesting tidbit being that Travis Willingham mentioned

16:37

that there is a critical role video

16:40

game on the way. I believe they

16:42

teased this last year and an announcement.

16:44

could be made any day now, because

16:46

there is no word on, as far

16:49

as I'm aware, who's developing it, what

16:51

platforms it will be on, what kind

16:53

of game it is, except that Travis

16:56

recently said in that interview, quote, they'll

16:58

actually be getting their hands, they'll actually

17:00

be getting their hands on the stick

17:03

and controlling the outcome of the story,

17:05

changing what might be possible from not

17:07

just some of their favorite characters. but

17:10

new offerings in the world of Alexandria.

17:12

Everybody get on your speculation cap. What

17:14

do we, what do we, what do

17:17

we, what do we hope this game

17:19

would be? If they're talking about changing

17:21

the fates of some of their favorite

17:23

characters. It's got to be something in

17:26

the modern age of Exandria. We're not

17:28

going all the way back to the

17:30

calamity or the divergence as recently explored

17:33

in Exandria Unlimited with a Bretonly Mulligan

17:35

company. So it's probably going to be

17:37

set in the era of campaign one

17:40

or two or three or maybe after

17:42

three, who's to say, where all of

17:44

the main campaign PCs are alive. It

17:47

will be really cool to see something

17:49

following campaign three. It's kind of what

17:51

I'm thinking. There are two main types

17:54

of video games that come to mind

17:56

as being a good fit for a

17:58

setting like this where There's a lot

18:00

of world building and there's characters that

18:03

people love right the first option That

18:05

I've mentioned before is just a straight

18:07

up fight a game. It's just Tekken,

18:10

but it's critical role I think that

18:12

that's probably the less popular of the

18:14

options, but I think it would work.

18:17

The other option is the much more

18:19

expensive and is sort of. a high

18:21

investment option, which would be some kind

18:24

of an RPG where you make your

18:26

character and you go around the world

18:28

that has been built and you can

18:30

visit these places that you're familiar with

18:33

and then you get to occasionally you

18:35

meet one of the NPCs or PCs

18:37

that you're familiar with and that's a

18:40

very exciting moment because that would it

18:42

matches the thrill that you're looking for.

18:44

It matches the thrill of campaign to

18:47

campaign three when you meet one of

18:49

the characters from a previous campaign campaign.

18:51

and you get that excitement of I

18:54

know who this is. You know, if

18:56

you happen to go into a magic

18:58

store and it's run by Gilmore, that's

19:01

a very exciting thing. It's just that

19:03

our PG's a lot to make. This

19:05

is a thing. I'm more fascinated. I

19:07

don't give a crap about the story.

19:10

I'm gonna be honest. Like, I'm just

19:12

not that much of a critical role

19:14

fan. What fascinates me. is what sort

19:17

of game this is going to be

19:19

because I think everybody's default thought is

19:21

like Delport Brechland just said in chat

19:24

like larian studios would be great to

19:26

develop it yeah they probably would be

19:28

I think they larian have said they've

19:31

gone back to their own IP I

19:33

don't know that for a fact somebody

19:35

can correct me if I'm right but

19:38

we know that's when over at larian

19:40

is writing the has written the first

19:42

draft of a new game is basically

19:44

what we know from lary and I

19:47

reckon it's going to be one of

19:49

For it to be an RPG on

19:51

the scale of like, you know, forget

19:54

Boulder's Gate, like think of any kind

19:56

of smaller scale RPG that's come out

19:58

in the last little while, they would

20:01

have had to have been working on

20:03

this for years. Unless it is years

20:05

away. from now, right? I could see

20:08

a scenario, I don't think it would

20:10

be lary and exactly as you just

20:12

said, James. I could see a scenario

20:15

where maybe they come out and they

20:17

say, yes, we're going to be developing

20:19

this full scale, boulders gaitian, RPG, and

20:21

it's going to go into early acts.

20:24

either late this year or early next

20:26

year, but the full release is like

20:28

2027 or something. But I could also

20:31

see as somebody else said in chat

20:33

them coming out and being like, yeah,

20:35

it's a card game and like you

20:38

decide it's for mobile and like you

20:40

decide the fate of Alexandria by playing

20:42

your favorite characters in Gwen style cards

20:45

or something. This is kind of what

20:47

I mean though, right? It's like I

20:49

think that there is a tricky situation

20:52

at hand where I think the kind

20:54

of game that they would be able

20:56

to make and make and make well.

20:58

is not necessarily the kind of game

21:01

that people are going to want or

21:03

expect. I think the game that would

21:05

work best would be an RPG, not

21:08

even in the style of Boulder's game,

21:10

even, you know, Skyrim, which let's not

21:12

pretend that that's not massive, you know

21:15

what I mean? It's just older, but,

21:17

you know, I think that something more

21:19

akin to a sort of linear adventure

21:22

story. game where it's like you're in

21:24

a fantasy world and this is the

21:26

story that you play out you play

21:29

as this person is much more within

21:31

the realms of possibility but I think

21:33

would potentially be a little bit less

21:35

successful. I would limit expectations even within

21:38

that because you know maybe this is

21:40

not what you're thinking but I started

21:42

thinking like an adventure game like God

21:45

of War. It's not an open world

21:47

RPG RPG but even they take years

21:49

to create like a game of that

21:52

scale. I think the interesting thing, the

21:54

interesting position that critical role is in

21:56

right now, I'm going to eat my

21:59

words, but I don't know, all I'm

22:01

saying is, I think the best version

22:03

of a critical role game is one

22:05

that is very unlikely to be the

22:08

game that we get. So I'm just

22:10

going to have to wait and see

22:12

what they do. I think the interesting

22:15

thing, the interesting position that critical role

22:17

is in right now is they are,

22:19

they dominate discourse, but they're not that

22:22

big of a company. You know, their

22:24

resources are not even half on the

22:26

level of something like Wizards of the

22:29

Coast, getting Larry into adapting. their brand.

22:31

And Larian's an indie studio too, let's

22:33

not get it twisted. They just happened

22:36

to have a lot of really good

22:38

backing and a lot of really, really

22:40

talented and experienced staff on their team.

22:42

So critical roles in a somewhat awkward

22:45

position of needing to present a game

22:47

that will live up to the level

22:49

of like fame and prestige they have

22:52

within the space while also working within

22:54

the resources they have as being in

22:56

that spot of quote-unquote second fiddle to

22:59

D&D, which I think that presents a

23:01

bit of a quality gap in between

23:03

people's expectations and what's what's doable. I

23:06

think in the RPG space, definitely, I

23:08

think outside of the RPG space, nobody's

23:10

heard critical role, you know what I

23:13

mean? Like, as in... the behind the

23:15

scenes the working with and not just

23:17

in the capacity of doing voices that

23:19

even the tiny bits of crossover like

23:22

Liam having voice directed video games means

23:24

that they have more of a chance

23:26

of knowing not necessarily the big dogs

23:29

but the talented dogs in video games.

23:31

It's like they have more of a

23:33

chance of knowing the people who are

23:36

within their range of availability but very

23:38

capable. So I don't think they're going

23:40

to come out with something crap. I'll

23:43

put it that way. No, certainly not.

23:45

Yeah, you raised a really good point

23:47

here, Dale. But when people hear the

23:50

voices of Matt Mercer, Liam, O'Brien, Laura

23:52

Bailey, Ashley Johnson, God, Ashley Johnson in

23:54

Last Of Us, I mean, people's expectations

23:56

for the qualities of that kind of

23:59

game, you know, their expectations are AAA.

24:01

They're not, you know. Double A doesn't

24:03

indicate poor quality, but it indicates, you

24:06

know, a maybe a lower level of

24:08

resource. I think either way people might

24:10

have to. to expect the unexpected on

24:13

this one. Hades. Love Hades. Love Super

24:15

Giant. You know, that kind of level.

24:17

Sorry, I'm just still thinking of games

24:20

where I'm like, I'm like thinking of

24:22

things that Indy Studios are capable of

24:24

putting out. I think that's where I'm

24:27

pitting my expectations. Yeah, but Hades itself,

24:29

a couple things. Hades was an incredibly

24:31

mechanics driven game. with Greek mythology kind

24:33

of thrown on it as an IP

24:36

in quotation marks. They did a very,

24:38

very unique, very interesting spin on that

24:40

mythology and kind of almost made it

24:43

feel like their own IP in a

24:45

way, their version of Zagrias, of Hades,

24:47

of those characters. But that game, you

24:50

know, the way that Super Giant seemed

24:52

to work is that they... develop the

24:54

mechanics for the game. Does that make

24:57

sense? The other thing, they're very good

24:59

at those two things, but I don't

25:01

think like they would be looking at,

25:04

I don't think like they would be

25:06

looking at, I don't think Super Giant

25:08

or a studio like Super Giant would

25:10

be looking at like, dagger-heart for example,

25:13

and being like, oh yes, we could

25:15

try to adapt this into a video

25:17

game. They would be wanting to develop

25:20

their own mechanics for the game. Does

25:22

that make sense? famously and Hades too

25:24

now, despite the fact that they don't

25:27

have the look and polish and money

25:29

feel behind them of something like a

25:31

God of War, still took years to

25:34

develop to the point that... Sure, but

25:36

to me that seems irrelevant. I feel

25:38

like they probably have been in development

25:40

stages for a long time before bringing

25:43

it up and they probably will continue

25:45

to be in development. Like the idea

25:47

of it taking years is like whatever.

25:50

It's only what a game takes... Like,

25:52

use, use, that it becomes a thing.

25:54

And I kind of, I disagree that

25:57

the time scope is irrelevant because I

25:59

don't think critical role is an I.

26:01

outside of the RPG industry is necessarily

26:04

big enough to attract the time money

26:06

and attention from an outside video game

26:08

company who could be working on anything

26:11

else. I think if you're looking at

26:13

indie enough people or people who are

26:15

adjacent to TTRPGs in the kind of

26:17

games that they want to make if

26:20

you're looking at. people who are starting

26:22

up their brand new studio and just

26:24

need something that is going to make

26:27

some money to get them on to

26:29

their next project. I think there's any

26:31

number of reasons that people would want

26:34

to work on a game like this.

26:36

I mean, look at Pathfinder Kingmaker or

26:38

Pathfinder Wrath of the righteous. I mean,

26:41

I think Pizzo is very much in

26:43

the same position as critical role is,

26:45

maybe from a different angle. They're a

26:48

major but not D&D RPG RPG studio

26:50

and they've made a game that it's

26:52

no. RPG and it looks pretty good.

26:54

And it's made by a studio you've

26:57

never heard of. So to sum up,

26:59

we don't know who, where, when, why,

27:01

what it will be. Anything about it,

27:04

but by God, I can't wait. Yeah.

27:06

Man, you always keep us grounded, Sean.

27:08

I don't know what we'd do without

27:11

you. That's all right. That's why I'm

27:13

here. Yeah. Yeah. I guess, you know,

27:15

to bring final thesis point is I

27:18

would be mitigating my expectations. and I

27:20

think that fans a critical role within

27:22

the RPG industry probably should to not

27:25

expect like a boulders game. Yeah, I

27:27

don't think we should expect anything close

27:29

to what a AAA game is. I

27:31

think we should be expecting like high

27:34

quality indie game style quality. And everyone

27:36

in chat is bringing up that Legends

27:38

of Voxmakana was very successful. on Amazon

27:41

even outside of TTIPGs. And that they

27:43

have a huge budget. Yeah, 12 million

27:45

dollars when you start talking about AAA

27:48

video game development is. But we are

27:50

talking about AAA video game development. No,

27:52

but that's like, how much did Hades

27:55

take to develop? I would, I would

27:57

get, maybe I'm wrong, maybe I'm completely

27:59

wrong. But I would guess it's more

28:02

than 12 million. Yeah. Anyway, and that's

28:04

again why I'm saying mitigate your expectations

28:06

is because I think the expectations of

28:08

a lot of people within the RPG

28:11

industry who see critical role as secondary

28:13

only to Wizards of the Coast are

28:15

imagining that. I think you're imagining it.

28:18

Speaking of video games and expectations not

28:20

being met. Sigil has had a bumpy

28:22

release. We talked a little bit about

28:25

this a few weeks ago when Wizards

28:27

of the Coast kind of just stealth

28:29

launched Sigil and we're like, yeah, it's

28:32

here, woohoo! I haven't had a chance

28:34

to go in and look at it

28:36

yet. I'm assuming, but correct me if

28:39

I'm wrong, none of you have really

28:41

toured around the actual product yet. Oh

28:43

man, it's funny. I haven't played a

28:45

D&D game since the last time we

28:48

talked about it. that you're about to

28:50

talk about is not exactly correct but

28:52

also not far off. Well, let's compare

28:55

thoughts. Sam Makovich. from, I believe this

28:57

was Polygon, has written a relatively detailed,

28:59

if unfavorable, breakdown of Segel in its

29:02

current release state. The too long didn't

29:04

read kind of version of that review

29:06

if you don't want to go check

29:09

it out, was that it's a nice

29:11

3D virtual space to kind of build

29:13

things in, even if it feels a

29:15

little bit limited in terms of what

29:18

you can build, in terms of what

29:20

environments and pieces are available if you

29:22

want to, kind of Lego. It's incredibly

29:25

feature incomplete, incomplete, incomplete, and required, and

29:27

required. as every player to bring their

29:29

own gaming PC to be able to

29:32

really use it in that hands-on way

29:34

where everybody's moving stuff around. I think

29:36

that's so funny because I remember when

29:39

the idea of this VTT first came

29:41

up, we were talking about it. I

29:43

was like, well, Talespire is really similar

29:46

and it's really intensive. It'll be interesting

29:48

to see whether it's accessible to everyone.

29:50

And after we talked about it for

29:52

a while, we were all like, no,

29:55

of course they're going to get it

29:57

to a point where everyone can access

29:59

it. without a gaming PC. My laptop

30:02

is not a gaming PC and I

30:04

could use it just fine. Now I

30:06

did not host full games or

30:08

anything like that, so I can't

30:11

speak beyond just the using it

30:13

to build with, but my really

30:15

normal, really old laptop did buy.

30:18

Were you playing like an actual

30:20

game in it, Sean or were

30:22

you just kind of tooling around?

30:24

I was building with it monsters

30:26

putting dungeons together that.

30:29

that sort of thing. Now

30:31

when you say building monsters.

30:33

No, putting in monsters, building

30:35

the dungeons in which those

30:37

monsters would hang out. I want to

30:39

insert one of those memes of someone

30:42

sitting down to play the Sims with

30:44

their cup of tea. They sit down

30:46

with their mug and then the the

30:49

jet engine of their laptop starts.

30:51

I think we're in the exact

30:53

same territory we were with the

30:55

previous thing, right? It's... What do

30:57

people expect? What do people want?

30:59

And I think the failure of

31:01

Sigil at this point is going

31:03

to be that it's not something

31:05

where they tell you how to

31:07

use it. It's something where they

31:09

say, here's a tool, use it

31:11

any way you want. Or those

31:13

people who want to have structure

31:15

and download adventures and have their

31:18

friends in and have everything ready

31:20

for them and want to have

31:22

it connected to D&D Beyond. you

31:24

know have a full featured ready-to-go

31:26

system that it's it's not going

31:28

it's not that and I don't

31:30

know if it will ever be

31:32

that yes what Sam said in

31:35

the review is absolutely true it

31:37

is featuring complete if you expect

31:39

complete features for me as someone

31:41

who has the master tier subscription on D&D

31:43

beyond you know largely for work purposes of

31:45

just being able to go in and you

31:48

know check things or whatever as I need

31:50

to, but also for personal reasons. It seems

31:52

like a pretty good deal for this thing

31:54

to just be like, okay, this is freely

31:57

accessible to me, I'm just going, like I'm

31:59

paying for... in theory through my subscription,

32:01

but I am not paying any

32:03

more than I was a week

32:05

ago because I just already have

32:08

that subscription. I think that's a

32:10

pretty good deal. Do you, Sean,

32:12

think it's worth like upgrading your

32:14

D&D Beyond subscription or getting a

32:16

D&D Beyond subscription for the use

32:18

of Seagull? If you have a,

32:20

if you yourself want to build

32:22

3D adventures, then absolutely. If you're

32:24

a player or you are a

32:26

player who want to have that

32:28

feel of a video game, a

32:31

3D video game and see everything

32:33

happening in that 3D space, then

32:35

it's absolutely worth it. Is it

32:37

worth it to goof around with?

32:39

Maybe if your goofing money is

32:41

well spent, then you absolutely. For

32:43

me, it's not. I will go

32:45

use it. to waste an hour

32:47

here and there like I have

32:49

an hour to waste, but I

32:52

don't see myself ever using it

32:54

for the purpose for which people

32:56

think it has been made. And

32:58

maybe Wizards thinks that it's made

33:00

for this reason. Maybe they don't

33:02

know if it's been made for

33:04

this reason anymore. I don't know

33:06

because all I have is what

33:08

they presented, which is featuring complete

33:10

based on the previous thoughts about

33:12

what it might be. Does it

33:15

feel like a complete? product in

33:17

any way. Like we've said featuring

33:19

Complete a few times, a couple

33:21

folks have said, you know, online

33:23

or otherwise I think Sam says

33:25

this in the review, that if

33:27

they had put the tag beta

33:29

or alpha or early access or

33:31

something on it to kind of

33:33

indicate like, hey, we're kind of

33:36

throwing this out in quotation marks

33:38

for free if you already have

33:40

the subscription, it is an early

33:42

access product. Does that make it

33:44

better? Or it's it's odd because

33:46

I mean I remember reporting over

33:48

a year ago where people went

33:50

to I think packs unplugged and

33:52

were shown the version of it

33:54

that was out then and even

33:56

people who are often critical of

33:59

wizards in every way, came back

34:01

and said, you know, I wanted

34:03

to hate it, but it was

34:05

really cool. And so I don't

34:07

know what the differences between what

34:09

they saw and what we see

34:11

now. I don't know if the

34:13

changing expectations are behind this. And

34:15

again, this is one person's thought,

34:17

and we're all taking their word

34:19

for it because they put it

34:22

onto a website, so therefore it

34:24

must be true. on the internet.

34:26

You think people would go on

34:28

the internet and lie, Sean? I

34:30

can't, I can't believe it would

34:32

happen. And then not even lie,

34:34

right? Just give their their own

34:36

opinion of what they've seen. And

34:38

we can all go look and

34:40

give an opinion of what we've

34:43

seen or not. Fair enough. Well,

34:45

uh, Segel is up for folks

34:47

who want to go and check

34:49

it out. I want to jump

34:51

in and talk about a different

34:53

VTT just for a second because

34:55

I played... a bit of draw

34:57

steel earlier just on Saturday using

34:59

their beta virtual tabletop codex. It

35:01

was pretty cool. I mean, you

35:03

know, talk about feature and complete,

35:06

but this one at least is

35:08

a beta, you know, it's not

35:10

even publicly listed on steam. It's

35:12

only for beta testers with a

35:14

code, right? They're not trying to...

35:16

presented as something it's not. And

35:18

it's really cool to see what

35:20

a virtual tabletop that is coming

35:22

together looks like, especially when the

35:24

game like Drostiel is is highly

35:27

tactical. Yeah, pats and chats is

35:29

not even beta, it's still alpha.

35:31

Yeah, I mean, it's highly unpolished,

35:33

but you can see what it's

35:35

coming together to be. And that's

35:37

kind of the joy of an

35:39

alpha release, right? I think some

35:41

of its rough edges are kind

35:43

of sanded over by what you

35:45

want. it to be not by

35:47

the harsh reality of what it

35:50

is, which is what I think

35:52

Project Sigil is running into at

35:54

the moment. Help me out, James.

35:56

Is that 3D or 2D? It

35:58

is not. It is 2D. It's

36:00

in that way, quote, less ambitious

36:02

than. Sigil is. Two-D in terms

36:04

of top-down, you know, you're observing

36:06

it in two-D, but there are

36:08

elements of a height. Right. Yeah,

36:11

for example, we had a What's

36:13

the Drosstiel rogue shadow? We had

36:15

a shadow that was in a

36:17

tree using a pole arm and

36:19

so was gaining boons on attacks

36:21

by jabbing down at goblins outside

36:23

the dealing tomb from height. And

36:25

so the mechanics are coded to

36:27

include this sort of height advantage,

36:29

right? But the map itself is

36:31

a fairly accurate description of how

36:34

you'd be playing a pen and

36:36

paper on a tabletop. That's a

36:38

good way of describing it. Visually

36:40

two-dimensional. Functionally three-dimensional. It gives me

36:42

the inverted image of someone trying

36:44

to get a cat out of

36:46

a tree. There's a cat in

36:48

the tree trying to stop people

36:50

from getting it out. I'll just

36:52

go on like, stay away. Get

36:54

out of here. And it's very

36:57

cool. And it's effective for what

36:59

it does, right? D&D, I don't

37:01

think, needs a computer to make

37:03

it run properly. I don't think

37:05

draw still necessarily needs a computer

37:07

to make room properly, but I

37:09

think it benefits more than D&D

37:11

having calculations going underneath the hood.

37:13

Is it fairly automated in terms

37:15

of like I click attack numbers

37:18

come out to tell me how

37:20

much damage I do? I was

37:22

not in the director's chair, so

37:24

I wouldn't say for sure with

37:26

total certainty, but there was a

37:28

fair bit of automation and it

37:30

sounds like they have quite a

37:32

bit of automation planned as well.

37:34

Especially for things like resources, because

37:36

every class has resources resources and

37:38

there's, whatever the secondary... thing is

37:41

called shoot, I don't remember. There's

37:43

plenty of resources that he moves

37:45

in effect to generate and they

37:47

do automatically calculate and add and

37:49

subtract if you do stuff. Do

37:51

you as the player have any

37:53

sort of hands-on control or are

37:55

you just kind of spectating the

37:57

VTT? Plenty of hands on control.

37:59

Oh yeah, there's cool, you know,

38:02

there's a hot bar buttons that

38:04

affect the different abilities and maneuvers

38:06

that you have in combat. Yeah,

38:08

they know what they're doing is

38:10

what it seems like to me.

38:12

the Codex, I believe it's called,

38:14

being worked on in the Shadows

38:16

by, I don't know, currently with

38:18

their early access play testers. Speaking

38:20

of things that are not in

38:22

beta and are fully featured, companion

38:25

quest is currently at Kickstarter. Just

38:27

a quick shout out for companion

38:29

quest, if you're not aware, it's

38:31

ghostfire gaming's newer sport game. One

38:33

to four player co-op family board

38:35

game, where you collect companions, little

38:37

D&D familiar-like creatures that will help

38:39

you complete your quests, watch out

38:41

for dangers, and catch the mischievous

38:43

googoo, who is a little creation

38:46

by Roonsmith, who is a monkey

38:48

cat-goblin thing that can open dimensional

38:50

portals. These are going to be

38:52

a little bit of behind the

38:54

scenes, but I think it's hilarious.

38:56

Jess who works in customer support

38:58

here at Ghost Fire has been

39:00

making little clips for social media

39:02

around companion Quest and made a

39:04

little video the other day about

39:06

Google and Stebbels, the two characters

39:09

from companion Quest. play companion quest

39:11

with each other using the board

39:13

game and the plushies that we

39:15

have of those characters. She had

39:17

to cut off one of Googoo's

39:19

arms to be able to puppeteer

39:21

it to move some of the

39:23

pieces around on the board. I'm

39:25

probably ruining that for a couple

39:27

of people, but more people will

39:29

see it on social media than

39:32

otherwise. So yeah, we've got one

39:34

of three armed Googoo now in

39:36

the office, which I think is

39:38

very funny. It will be up

39:40

over there if you want to

39:42

go check out the Kickstarter. It

39:44

is a great game. And speaking

39:46

of great things, I thought we

39:48

were going to get to this

39:50

a lot earlier, but we didn't.

39:53

It's time for listener emails! Whoo-hoo-hoo-hoo!

39:55

Sean, what's the email address? If

39:57

people want to send us an

39:59

email to ask a question? I'm

40:01

glad you asked Ben. I believe

40:03

it is podcast at ghostfire gaming.

40:05

when he asks Sean instead of

40:07

us, James. Yeah, makes me feel

40:09

happy. One day, Sean will slip

40:11

in the Mastering Dunion's email address

40:13

just for a laugh. Just reply.

40:16

This question coming in from Gethan,

40:18

who is asking about low-level legendary

40:20

monsters. The Monster Manual 2025, I

40:22

did not corroborate this, but according

40:24

to Gethan, only the unicorn is

40:26

a monster below CR10 with legendary

40:28

actions. Everything else is above CR10.

40:30

Why are legendary actions only reserved

40:32

for the highest tiers of play?

40:34

Should more low see our creatures

40:37

feature legendary actions? What do we

40:39

think? I think absolutely there need

40:41

to be more legendary creatures at

40:43

low levels. Straight up, most D&D

40:45

campaigns don't even get to the

40:47

legendary creatures. And as much as

40:49

the name legendary might imply otherwise,

40:51

it's a game mechanic designed to

40:53

make solo fights. go well. You

40:55

might as well call it a

40:57

solo action or a solo resistance.

41:00

That would better communicate its gameplay

41:02

purpose. Legendary is a weird little

41:04

bit of gameplay and lower interaction

41:06

that I find hamstrings a concept

41:08

more than it helps it. That

41:10

is a fully featured complete thought.

41:12

Yeah, I guess so. I'm going

41:14

to move in the opposite direction

41:16

just a little bit by saying

41:18

that We already have bonus actions,

41:21

we already have reactions, legendary action

41:23

is something above and beyond that

41:25

really should put the characters on

41:27

their heels and at those lower

41:29

levels, especially at the lowest levels,

41:31

first level, second level, characters can

41:33

already have a hard enough time

41:35

and beyond their heels with just

41:37

some bad die rolls. I'm not

41:39

opposed to. using legendary actions with

41:41

monsters that you know see our

41:44

six seven eight maybe in that

41:46

range where the unicorn is But

41:48

even the unicorn is strange because

41:50

it's a lawful good creature and

41:52

it's legendary action. It has two.

41:54

One, it can run around it

41:56

and stab you with its horn.

41:58

The other is it can protect

42:00

people. So it's odd that the

42:02

one that's below CR10 or maybe

42:04

it's not odd that the one

42:07

that's below CR10 is one that

42:09

you probably won't fight. And if

42:11

you do have a battle, you'll

42:13

probably be on your side assuming

42:15

you're a good creature. And so

42:17

I would rather see. those monsters,

42:19

especially those boss type monsters at

42:21

the lower CRS, make more use

42:23

of bonus actions and reactions rather

42:25

than stepping into this legendary action

42:28

thing, which kind of, especially if

42:30

you have maybe a small group,

42:32

like only three or four players,

42:34

you are getting an action done

42:36

to you after every action that

42:38

your party takes. So that might

42:40

be a little much at that

42:42

sort of lower CRS. It's tricky

42:44

because I feel like... My brain

42:46

is coming at this from two

42:48

separate directions, right? Like there's this

42:51

mechanical implication that comes with legendary

42:53

as a tag and the idea

42:55

of legendary actions. But there's something

42:57

narrative as well, you know, and

42:59

I think absolutely in low levels,

43:01

you should be able to have,

43:03

I need different phrases, but you

43:05

should be able to have a

43:07

legendary encounter at early levels. Like

43:09

I'm on record saying that I

43:12

think every beginner box should have

43:14

you. encounter a dragon, probably fight

43:16

a dragon in some capacity, find

43:18

a way to let these level

43:20

one characters, fight a dragon because

43:22

that's what they expect from this

43:24

game. And because that's fun and

43:26

it's exciting and I don't mean

43:28

that it should literally always be,

43:30

it doesn't have to be a

43:32

dragon. What I'm talking about is

43:35

like the idea of legendary narratively

43:37

is not just this really big

43:39

thing. It's not just the Tarasch.

43:41

It's, you know, there are local

43:43

legends. It can be a big

43:45

deal of, oh, these are the

43:47

people who killed the Cyclops, who

43:49

kept raiding our farms, that kind

43:51

of a deal. I think about,

43:53

you know, okay, Greek mythology, when

43:56

Herik- was fighting the Hydra, a

43:58

giant crab was summoned by Hera

44:00

from the waters of the Lernian

44:02

Lake to come up and join

44:04

the battle and also fight Heracles.

44:06

And he crushed it beneath his

44:08

foot. And that crab was put

44:10

into the stars and remembered as

44:12

the zodiac sign of cancer. And

44:14

you look at the art and

44:16

it's just kind of a big

44:19

crab. You know what I mean?

44:21

It's not actual, when we say

44:23

giant, we just mean it's kind,

44:25

it was pretty big for a

44:27

crab. But that guy's a legendary

44:29

monster. You know what I mean?

44:31

And I just think that we

44:33

need to recognize that the word

44:35

legendary is more flexible than it

44:37

feels. And we need to allow

44:39

for local legends. Because I think

44:42

if you're a newbie player and

44:44

you're only have a fighting bandits

44:46

or goblin groups, it's get against

44:48

Dale. You know, you're making a

44:50

great point, Dale. And I think

44:52

legendary in this case means a

44:54

lot of different things, but one

44:56

of the things it means is

44:58

breaking the rules. Breaking the rules.

45:00

not like everything else. So in

45:03

that sense, what legendary means is

45:05

you don't follow the same rules

45:07

as the players or as the

45:09

other monsters. But I think there

45:11

are better ways to show that

45:13

than giving it an action, basically

45:15

an action after every character goes.

45:17

Which again, maybe overwhelming at lower

45:19

levels. There might be an in-between

45:21

stage. I mean, I've had my

45:23

issues with legendary actions in general.

45:26

I just think it's kind of

45:28

a boring mechanic, but that's... Yeah,

45:30

yeah, we've had that. It has

45:32

a place, and I don't know

45:34

if these monsters use it well.

45:36

It has a place for things

45:38

that could be very interesting, but

45:40

not very powerful. Something like a

45:42

vampire. If they have to use

45:44

their entire turn to try to

45:47

do the fun thing that vampires

45:49

do, which is bite you in

45:51

the neck and draw your blood,

45:53

oh you have to have it

45:55

grappled, but you also have to

45:57

attack. Well if you can't have...

45:59

something, keep something grappled, then you

46:01

will never get a chance to

46:03

do the cool thing. That's where

46:05

something like a legendary action would

46:08

be great. The abbleth uses it, if

46:10

it's got something grappled, it can then

46:12

use it, I think it's called consume

46:14

thoughts or consume memories, something like that.

46:16

So that shows that it's doing this

46:18

cool thing, it's not the most powerful

46:20

thing that it can do, but since

46:22

it's a two-step process, it can get

46:25

that second step in. And that's what

46:27

I would love to see it.

46:29

legendary actions become in some way

46:31

is the let the monster do the

46:33

cool monster thing without having it

46:36

being blocked all the time by

46:38

players pulling themselves out of

46:40

grapples or whatever they are

46:42

doing to stop it. And

46:45

there's this interesting decision-making mechanically

46:47

that means that if a

46:49

monster has legendary actions it

46:52

sort of tacitly must also

46:54

have legendary resistances. which have

46:56

been a thorn in some

46:59

players in GM side ever since

47:01

the monster manual came out in

47:03

2015. So it's a simple matter

47:05

of being able to scale these

47:07

legendary actions properly and these legendary

47:09

properties properly. I think it would

47:11

be really cool for a legendary

47:13

goblin boss that you fight at

47:15

level three, four, or five to

47:17

have one. legendary resistance, you know,

47:20

just zag on them a little

47:22

bit, be like, oh, you're going

47:24

to hold personally. Well, I guess

47:26

you can't do that in 2024,

47:28

but you know what I mean.

47:30

You're going to, you're going to,

47:32

you're going to, you're going to,

47:34

you're going to, you're going to,

47:36

you're going to, you're going to

47:38

instantly bust out of it, or

47:41

even a more limited legendary resistance.

47:43

But just one sort of. One sort

47:45

of special moment and then you

47:47

can ramp it up in intensity

47:50

sort of a sliding scale of

47:52

legendary power That suits the

47:54

various tiers of the of the game, right?

47:57

Levels one through four you're

47:59

supposed to be local heroes anyway,

48:01

so why not, as Dale said,

48:03

a local legend? Yeah, I mean,

48:05

I think the other way of

48:07

thinking about this is the MCDM

48:09

way of like action-oriented monsters, right?

48:11

And what legendary actions kind of

48:13

do is just equal out the

48:15

action economy so that a monster

48:17

can potentially solo a party. I

48:19

don't think legendary actions are necessarily

48:21

there for the explicit intention of

48:23

soloing monstifies, but they certainly help

48:26

with that because they balance out

48:28

the action economy. I kind of

48:30

agree with Sean that I think

48:32

that the definition of legendary creature,

48:34

which has legendary actions, and as

48:36

you pointed out, James as well,

48:38

legendary reaction, sorry, legendary resistances, indicates

48:40

that this is something that like

48:42

higher level players should encounter, right?

48:44

This should change the game. You

48:46

should set up expectations. over the

48:48

course of three or four or

48:50

ten sessions, however long your campaign

48:52

is going. And then when you

48:54

hit a legendary monster, the party's

48:56

expectations are kind of broken and

48:58

they're like, oh wow, this we

49:00

can't, oh no, we're in trouble,

49:03

yeah. I remember it doesn't have

49:05

legendary actions, it's three actions, but

49:07

I remember the first time I

49:09

party fought a hydra, that really

49:11

shattered their expectations of the game.

49:13

There was no crab, but the

49:15

hydra can react with each of

49:17

its heads. you know, as many

49:19

heads as it has, it has

49:21

like a reaction to attack people.

49:23

And so the introduction of legendary

49:25

actions is kind of like you've

49:27

entered a new tier of play.

49:29

That being said, I do think

49:31

that legendary actions would be good

49:33

more in tier, you know, like

49:35

six, seven, eight monsters. It would

49:38

be good to have more of

49:40

those. I've given legendary actions to

49:42

werewolves and things like that have

49:44

that kind of legendary monster vibe

49:46

to them but aren't quite... God

49:48

like I think at the lowest

49:50

levels that you were talking about

49:52

a moment ago James in terms

49:54

of like a Goblin boss There

49:56

are and you know people might

49:58

not be as satisfied with them,

50:00

but I think they're There are

50:02

some cool mechanics in terms of

50:04

how you can use actions, reactions,

50:06

and bonus actions, particularly with boss

50:08

monsters within a group that can

50:10

fulfill the legendary action problem of

50:12

equaling out the action economy without

50:15

using legendary actions. A lot of

50:17

stat blocks like goblin bosses. can

50:19

use reactions to like throw other

50:21

enemies, oh sorry, like their own

50:23

allies in front of the party.

50:25

Captains and things usually have like

50:27

a bonus action to command. a

50:29

fellow minion to like move and

50:31

make an attack, you know, interlocking,

50:33

staff blocks that have interlocking things

50:35

where like when you fight this

50:37

group of goblins if they're all

50:39

standing next to each other, their

50:41

armor class goes up by one

50:43

for every goblin that is adjacent

50:45

to another goblin because they kind

50:47

of shield wall or whatever. I

50:49

think there's ways to kind of

50:52

build that in that isn't necessarily

50:54

legendary actions for the lower levels.

50:56

The stabby stabber, is a great

50:58

like low... Great name. C.R. Goblin

51:00

to throw at a party that's

51:02

kind of unexpected. Yeah, I feel

51:04

like it's just it's just that

51:06

legendary creature means a specific thing

51:08

within the context of this game.

51:10

And mechanically, I do think that

51:12

it makes sense to not have

51:14

them appear at low levels. But

51:16

because that word outside of the

51:18

context of these specific mechanics means

51:20

a slightly different, there's just a

51:22

dissonance in what the expectation is

51:24

based on that title that I

51:26

think is. Cosing the heart of

51:29

the problem. I just want to

51:31

see cool low-level monsters, you know,

51:33

I don't really care if we

51:35

call it And I want to

51:37

see him published by Wizards of

51:39

the Coast I you know, I'll

51:41

use flea mortals. I'll use the

51:43

stuff I designed for Taldory Reborn.

51:45

I'll use all of that But

51:47

it's not always added to D&D

51:49

beyond luckily both of those books

51:51

were you know, but I D&D

51:53

wits the coast there they're at

51:55

the top of this industry I

51:57

feel like they shouldn't be getting

51:59

outclassed by third-party publishers. Not to

52:01

say that third-party publishers are worse.

52:03

In fact, they're often better because

52:06

they can fit into a niche

52:08

better. But I don't think this

52:10

stuff is niche. MCDM, critical role

52:12

ghostfire gaming, I feel like when

52:14

it comes to monster design, we're

52:16

all lapping wizards of the coast

52:18

here. And I just want to

52:20

see more. Yeah, I think I

52:22

agree. I was wondering because legendary

52:24

actions don't... come earlier than fifth

52:26

edition they were introduced in fifth

52:28

edition if I'm not mistaken but

52:30

even if they did a proper

52:32

like six the dish like completely

52:34

different rule set I wouldn't be

52:36

surprised if legendary actions kind of

52:38

fully become a legacy thing from

52:40

fifth edition you know what I

52:43

mean in the way that like

52:45

fireball the spell is a legacy

52:47

thing that has to be in

52:49

in B&D somewhere. Yeah I was

52:51

thinking about that better and I

52:53

agree and that's not always a

52:55

good thing. I think we've got

52:57

a lot of over the years

52:59

things that they thought that their

53:01

fans would revolt if this wasn't

53:03

in there. Something should not be

53:05

legacy. Something should be dropped just

53:07

because they're popular does not mean

53:09

they should be carried into a

53:11

new edition. Tell the show. And

53:13

with that, we've done it. So

53:15

that means, it is the end

53:17

of the episode. So we need

53:20

to wrap this up. If you've

53:22

enjoyed this episode, you can join

53:24

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54:22

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54:24

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54:26

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54:28

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