0:01

The Thank

0:12

you

0:17

. So , so

0:33

, so

0:39

, so

0:43

, so , so , so , so

0:49

, so

0:59

, so

1:02

, so , so , so , so , so , so , so , so , so , so , so , so , so , so , so

1:05

, so Hi

1:07

everybody , Welcome to the Identity

1:10

Podcast .

1:12

I am joined today

1:14

by a wonderful human being

1:16

, Marie Broadway . Hi

1:19

Marie .

1:20

Hello

1:22

, I'm happy to be here . Hi , everyone , yay

1:26

.

1:27

If it's all right with you , I'm going to read a little bit

1:29

of your bio with it

1:31

and then and then you can and then

1:33

. So people know who is this human that

1:36

is sitting with Kimberlase . Ok

1:38

, I do this now . Ever

1:40

since Marie was young , marie had

1:43

an active imagination . Ever

1:59

since Marie was young , marie had an active imagination . Marie spent a lot of

2:01

time as a kid playing , pretend , making art and scribbling stories into notebooks . Marie

2:03

therapy . More of those pieces fell into place Through

2:06

play . Marie was able to see the creative

2:08

process externalized . It became

2:10

necessary for Marie to confront difficult

2:12

patterns in order to relate to them in new

2:14

ways , tool

2:25

that helps Marie recognize and integrate past experiences so that Marie can develop an honest

2:27

and compassionate relationship with themselves and with their creative

2:29

goals , and now helps others

2:32

to develop that relationship to themselves

2:35

and their creative goals . Marie

2:37

is a certified practitioner in the drama therapy

2:40

modality of developmental transformations modality

2:45

of developmental transformations , which Marie has practiced since 2016

2:47

, using the imaginative play practice

2:49

in their work as an artist , a

2:52

writer and a creative coach

2:54

, marie

2:56

is does that feel like ? That's

2:58

like how you're entering into this space

3:01

of who you are right now in this world ?

3:03

yeah , I guess it does that

3:06

I well

3:08

, I guess I can just add to it , which is just

3:10

to say I'm

3:12

I'm an artist and a writer and

3:14

I have been both of those things for a very long

3:16

time and

3:18

in the past I

3:21

guess 10 years now I

3:23

have been also very involved

3:25

in the drama therapy community and

3:28

using dbt specifically , which

3:30

I am thinking that maybe

3:32

people know a little bit about , since I

3:34

don't know if you talk about it , probably not , but

3:36

okay , well , it's . It's how

3:39

me , that's how Kim and I know each other , so

3:41

we know each other . Uh , through DBT

3:43

training and , yeah

3:46

, basically using this like emergent

3:48

play process

3:50

to explore

3:53

inner themes and stories

3:55

. And and

3:57

now I use that in creativity

4:00

coaching with folks

4:02

working on all sorts of things

4:04

related to creative process yes

4:08

, yeah , so developmental

4:10

transformations is a practice that it

4:13

started as a therapeutic process but it has

4:15

evolved a lot .

4:18

The fact that you use it in creative coaching , it's

4:21

also used in social change work , it's

4:23

used as performance , it's

4:26

used as gosh I'm

4:28

. I don't a lot of different

4:30

ways

4:33

. If you could sum

4:35

up what I guess we should start with , what is

4:37

developmental transformations ? Because people

4:39

are like , so like . If you could sum it up

4:41

in like a few words to you what is DBT

4:44

?

4:46

Well , I use it as a tool

4:49

. I think it's such a powerful it's

4:51

really just play . So

5:01

it's like , if

5:04

you can think back to like as being a kid and playing , it's sort of a structured

5:06

, structured play space for . For

5:08

I mean I use it with adults , so you can use it with kids too , I think .

5:10

I don't know . I'm not really here to talk about DBT specifically , but I think

5:12

you relay a little bit of the foundation of some of the things

5:14

we're talking about I mean .

5:15

Dbt is like an emergent embodied

5:19

play structure

5:22

, for so it's called . It's like a drama

5:24

therapy modality . It

5:27

uses tunes into the body . It

5:29

follows different impulses of what you want

5:31

your body to do , without knowing really what it means

5:33

. Yet you make that into shapes

5:35

, it turns into stories , and almost

5:38

always , in my experience , those stories

5:41

reflect something of your history

5:43

or patterns that you've been grappling with for

5:45

a very long time . So they can be

5:47

very related to your past , and they can

5:49

also be very related to your dreams

5:51

and your future and what you are

5:53

thinking about and how you

5:56

integrate all of those things

5:58

. Yeah , yeah .

6:00

I co-sign on that . I

6:02

always like to ask folks who practice

6:05

DVT to describe it from

6:07

their perspective , because it's always

6:09

a little bit different . It's

6:11

always just like colored , with the human that's

6:13

talking struggle

6:28

. So I'm always like , well , you know , it's um , uh , it's , it's a uh drama therapy and uh , improvisational

6:30

and relational , and we're in our bodies and we listen

6:32

to them and uh .

6:37

I like we're in our bodies and we listen to them

6:39

.

6:39

Yeah so

6:42

the fact that you use uh dbt

6:45

in creative work . So

6:47

, yeah , this podcast is really centralized

6:49

, centralizing around the topic

6:51

of creativity and and the

6:53

whole creative process , um , because

6:56

you are a creative coach .

6:57

So talk to us a little bit about

6:59

what is creativity to you yeah

7:03

, so , um , I was

7:05

actually just thinking about this right before I came on . I

7:08

was like , how do I , am I going to have to define creativity

7:10

? But then I went

7:12

to my website and I was like , oh , I defined it here

7:14

, great .

7:16

Past me wins .

7:19

Thanks , past Marie . So I

7:21

actually do have a line on there that

7:24

I still really love , which is that

7:26

I think creativity is anything we do

7:28

in active engagement with our

7:30

imagination . Yeah

7:34

, so that's my

7:36

line and I'm sticking to it . I

7:39

love it , I love it , but

7:42

, yeah , broadly

7:44

, I think it connects to so many things

7:46

and you know , it could

7:48

be work related . It could be

7:50

not work related . I think

7:52

I personally have the experience of creativity

7:55

being connected to a lot of personal projects

7:57

and , like art and writing , fiction

8:00

, writing , storytelling . I

8:03

think therapy is a creative

8:05

process , you

8:07

know this , like practice of making sense

8:10

of your life and integrating different stories

8:12

. And , you

8:15

know , restorying

8:17

, yeah , and

8:19

I also work with new . You

8:21

know I've worked a lot with new parents

8:23

. Parenting , I think , is such a creative process

8:26

.

8:26

Oh my gosh yes .

8:27

Becoming a parent is a creative process , so

8:30

there's a lot of like , overlaps , I

8:32

think , and like

8:35

oh , spiritual integration is such a creative

8:37

process also . These are just things

8:39

that I feel drawn to and have

8:41

like worked with people on so it so

8:43

it's like so many . It can touch so

8:45

many different parts of our lives .

8:48

Marie and I we had a meeting to talk about like

8:50

, okay , well , what do we want to talk about ? But

8:53

then like , how are both of us coming into the conversation

8:55

? And so I shared with Marie

8:57

like , oh , I have a fascination with neuroscience

9:00

and I've never gone to the depths

9:02

of understanding neuroscience of creativity . So

9:04

I was like , is it cool if I bring in like some of that piece

9:06

, those pieces ? And gratefully

9:09

, marie was like , yeah

9:12

, yes , so

9:15

I'm going to weave in some

9:17

things about the neuroscience of creativity , at least

9:19

from like the like , when the

9:21

folks are like doing the studies right . I found

9:24

it interesting the more I read about the neuroscience

9:26

of creativity , creativity . There's certain parts of like

9:28

studies around creativity . They can't like

9:31

replicate because the creative

9:33

process is so individual and you , the creative

9:35

process is so individual to the

9:37

human creating , uh that

9:41

they can't replicate it wow

9:43

, yeah , that's amazing right

9:45

, I love that .

9:45

That makes total sense to me , because I think everyone

9:47

has their own really specific creative

9:50

process and how they get into

9:52

it and what they make when they're in it , and

9:54

it's yeah , so that checks out

9:56

yeah , that's then we're saying that it's

9:58

hard .

9:59

It's hard for them to make like a a

10:02

do a study on some

10:05

replicating a specific type

10:07

of creativity or something like that

10:09

, or if there's like a component of creativity

10:12

that they're wanting to , like research , some of them are

10:14

able to be repeated because of the process

10:16

it tends to be the same , and then other

10:18

pieces of the process they're like oh

10:22

, how would we do that ? So

10:25

, like , how , like the research defines creativity

10:27

and I want to ask you what your thoughts on this are

10:29

. It

10:32

says what is creativity ? It involves generating

10:34

an idea that is new in some way , and

10:36

it's primarily defining . That is the primary

10:39

defining attribute to creativity

10:41

. For it is to be considered creative , it

10:43

must be novel , new , original

10:46

, unique , unusual , rare

10:48

, infrequent , but also

10:50

relevant , fit

10:53

for circumstances and appropriate

10:55

. So it's like this venn diagram of what

10:57

is original and what is appropriate and creative's

11:00

like right smack dab in the middle and

11:03

I was like I could .

11:05

I could fuck with that . Yeah

11:08

, yeah , yeah . Oh , that's really interesting

11:10

, that that's a cool . I haven't heard

11:12

that definition before and that's a cool one

11:14

to kind of chew on , because I was like I

11:17

the novel part . I was like

11:19

, oh yeah , I guess it is kind of novel because that's what

11:21

gets us excited . It's like , oh

11:23

, we're like doing something in slight because , oh

11:25

, and also it's actually . I

11:27

feel like you need to say this when you're saying

11:29

talking about novel , because I think sometimes

11:32

, like collectively , we're like novel

11:34

is something totally new . It's

11:37

it's like something I've never

11:39

done before . It

11:41

doesn't you know , even

11:43

it's not even familiar in

11:45

any way . But actually and this is

11:47

something we know through dbt but , um

11:50

, I actually think it's so important

11:52

to define novel as just

11:54

slight , it could be just slightly new

11:57

, like it could be something that's

11:59

totally familiar , but

12:01

you're doing it in a slightly different way

12:04

. Or or just noticing , like the

12:06

novelty . Because I think that

12:08

that that muscle , like to

12:10

build that muscle of like understanding

12:12

that there's novelty even in a day

12:14

to day monotony

12:17

is , is hugely

12:20

helpful to the creative process

12:22

, because to create so

12:24

many types of things that actually requires

12:27

a monotonous repetition

12:29

, like it requires repetition also . So

12:32

I think to just say that creativity

12:34

is something novel , is actually missing

12:36

a whole other piece , which is

12:38

that it actually also requires repetition

12:41

, but that there's novelty in

12:43

that . It's like

12:45

we need both , you know .

12:51

Yes , yeah , I love that you said that , because it's the repeating elements that create

12:53

the structures of like . Okay , this is what we're kind of playing with yeah

12:55

, what we're working with , but it's

12:58

those non-repeating elements

13:00

that like sneak . Yeah

13:03

, like back when marie and I were in training

13:05

, I think I don't know there

13:08

was a point where I realized like , oh , I

13:10

love non-repeating elements

13:12

I love them and I just

13:14

couldn't define why . and I remember

13:16

our trainer , renee , being like that

13:20

might be something to think about , kim , because

13:22

you know so many patterns and like

13:24

pattern recognition of what meaning does that have for you

13:27

? And I was like , I don't know , I was , that might be something to think about , kim , because you know so many

13:29

patterns and like pattern recognition .

13:29

Of what meaning does that ?

13:30

have for you and I was like I don't know , I was like in

13:35

the dark , I was like whatever . But like

13:37

now I look back at it , there's lots of psychological reasons , but also , you

13:39

know , avoidance , but also in the fact

13:41

that , like that's also where a

13:43

lot of creative spark lives , like

13:46

in the non-repeating element .

13:48

Yeah , totally . It's what gets you excited

13:51

? You're like , oh , more of this . Or

13:53

like , what is this , If it's new ? You're like , what is

13:55

this ? Let me explore it a little bit more . Yeah

13:57

.

13:58

It's the what is this that gets my heart beating a

14:00

little faster .

14:01

Yeah , and I also love actually , just to

14:03

go back to that definition , you were reading the

14:05

something about the relevance . That also made

14:07

me think , of course , because

14:10

you can also define relevance in

14:12

any way . But , like , when we're like talking about

14:14

the creative things we want to do with our lives

14:16

, they often are

14:20

deeply personally relevant

14:22

to us in some way . Right , like it's like

14:24

oh , I , you know , I've

14:27

always loved like food

14:30

and and like I've always

14:32

like food's been always really important to me . Or

14:34

like I have an experience of like not

14:36

not like you know , not

14:40

being nourished in the way that I needed to

14:42

, and then someone goes off and like

14:44

it becomes a chef , or like it's like

14:46

you know that that becomes deeply

14:49

relevant to their story and

14:51

that , but that's it's creative in

14:53

that sense too , because they're like filling a need

14:55

that they you know

14:57

that they didn't have

14:59

met , or like , yeah , I think that that

15:01

happens a lot in like this

15:03

kind of work , where it's like how is

15:06

the thing that you're pursuing

15:08

creatively relevant to your life and relevant

15:10

to your story ?

15:12

So , yeah , I

15:15

, you know I didn't , I didn't think

15:17

about it through that lens before you said that , but

15:19

now I'm like , oh my gosh . Yes , because I was thinking about , like , what

15:21

do they mean by relevant ? Because truthfully

15:23

I was like , oh , so like , if it's like in

15:25

pop culture terms , like if it's not relevant , people

15:27

don't like consume it , they don't care , and

15:29

so then it just sits on a shelf and nobody gives

15:31

a crap . but in like , in terms

15:33

of the creative process , it has to be relevant to

15:35

the creator or else you're not going to have

15:38

the energy to exude or

15:40

the mental capacity to even unpack

15:42

it , because it's not interesting

15:45

, right ?

15:46

right , right , exactly , it's

15:50

not interesting enough or it's not relevant enough to them , or they just wouldn't have even thought of it , maybe because

15:52

it's not relevant to them . Yeah , I think it's

15:55

actually that's cool to think about how

15:57

you're thinking about creativity . Are you thinking about

16:00

it from the position of a consumer , or are

16:02

you thinking about it from the position

16:04

of an employer ? Because that also came

16:06

to mind . When you're talking about relevant versus

16:08

a novel , it's sort of like oh yeah , how

16:11

do we capitalize on on creativity

16:13

? Because that is a whole

16:15

thing , that's like a whole oh

16:17

yeah . World out there is like how do you make

16:19

your employees more creative ? Or how

16:21

do you , how do you use creativity

16:24

to , you know

16:26

, be the most productive

16:28

in in the workforce and the you

16:30

know and I don't mean like totally , you

16:33

know this , this , that because it's like

16:36

, of course , we're all in this , in

16:38

this world , and even if you're

16:40

an artist , you're also

16:43

kind of trying to figure out , you

16:45

know how , how to create things that people

16:47

want and like , and

16:49

so you're always sort of I think maybe all

16:52

of us are always thinking about it from all

16:54

ends . But it is interesting to think about the

16:56

difference between it as a consumer

16:58

versus on the creator

17:01

side . And yeah

17:04

, absolutely . So

17:07

many different pieces here .

17:08

Well , yeah I guess to say

17:10

like so I was while you're talking . I'm like

17:12

, oh , my god , yes , and because I remember learning

17:14

about uh like how

17:16

this has been , like how studies have helped

17:19

workplaces and how they've used this

17:21

information to make sure it keeps

17:23

workers intrinsic motivation up . So

17:25

what's the environment ? What's the like ? Yeah

17:28

, the components of

17:30

the work environment that keep workers , uh

17:33

, intrinsically motivated

17:35

enough to have a higher uh

17:38

, you know what's

17:41

the word like productivity level . And so

17:43

I was like , oh , so it's like the next productivity level . And so I was like , oh

17:45

, so it's like . The

17:47

next thing I had in my notes was that creative ideas

17:49

do not need to be a positive , life affirming

17:51

or good for mankind . They

17:53

can also be applied to the opposite and have terrible

17:56

consequences for mankind and for the planet

17:58

. Yay

18:02

, thanks

18:04

, thanks

18:07

, creativity yay thanks , thanks

18:09

creativity yeah

18:11

so like , oh

18:14

man , so the

18:16

fact that you're sharing , like you know , the relevance

18:19

and working with , like parents and the creative process

18:21

or like so , just to name

18:23

that , like how we're really playing with

18:25

creativity as a concept . Most

18:28

folks hear that word and assume we're

18:30

talking about musicians , we're talking

18:33

about writers , we're talking about

18:35

, you know , those

18:37

in artistic fields . But

18:39

they don't realize that , like , most

18:42

people write it off and say like , oh , no , no , no , no

18:44

, I'm not a creative person that's for so-and-so

18:46

or so-and-so plays the piano or so-and-so

18:48

whatever . That's not me . But

18:51

what you're saying is the type of work you do is not only

18:54

with folks like that , it's with

18:56

folks in many different

18:58

circumstances . Can you tell us a little bit more about

19:00

that ?

19:02

yeah , um , I mean , I so

19:04

, actually , as we're talking about this like big picture

19:07

, sort of like , uh

19:10

, ways that creativity is used for

19:12

like mankind , with

19:14

whether it's benefits , beneficial

19:16

or not um , I was thinking

19:19

, oh yeah , there's a prep . Like I have

19:21

a very deep preference to work with

19:23

like individuals . Um , in

19:26

this like much more personal

19:28

way , um , because

19:31

I think , um

19:33

, I think that , yeah , it's like , whether

19:35

it's like we think about creativity being

19:37

like , about like artists , like

19:39

professional artists or musicians

19:41

. It's like I think , in some ways , I'm like well

19:44

, in my mind , if somebody's doing

19:46

that professionally , they've already got some

19:48

grasp of their

19:50

creative process . That's really working

19:53

for them in some way . Um

19:55

, and I think that

19:57

I

19:59

I love working with people

20:02

who don't necessarily

20:04

identify that way , as

20:06

like an artist or as a writer

20:09

or anything , whatever . The medium is Right , because

20:11

it could be so many different things . Because

20:13

I think that creativity is like

20:15

Something that we all

20:17

have and I think it's something that we

20:22

can get easily cut off from if we're

20:24

, if we we're not like thinking about it , making

20:26

space for it , just

20:29

in that there's not a lot

20:31

of maybe permission

20:33

or acknowledgement that like creativity

20:35

exists in all these other realms

20:38

as well . Like , if you're in

20:40

the creative , you know work

20:43

. If you're doing creative work , then , um

20:46

, you might you already probably know

20:48

this and like have are

20:50

surrounded by people who value creative

20:52

process and are working towards that . But

20:55

, like , if you're not and you're , you know like

20:57

, um , you

21:00

know just working your job and

21:02

like , but you've always kind of like dreamed

21:04

about writing a novel . Or if

21:06

you've always kind of dreamed about , like , making

21:09

art and you used to do that , but

21:11

you didn't , you don't anymore , you like

21:13

kind of like let that fall by the wayside . Like

21:15

I love the experience of kind of

21:17

reinvigorating that in people

21:19

, because I it's , it's something that is

21:22

still there , it's still in you and it's

21:24

still , you

21:26

know , want space . I think I

21:29

was actually thinking this before we got on Kim

21:31

, because I was like I was writing down how

21:33

I feel so

21:35

strongly that creative process

21:37

is also a transformational process , and

21:40

so there is like a

21:42

lot that can come up around that Like , when you're

21:45

creating something , you're also transforming

21:47

yourself in some way and that can , of

21:50

course , bring up this like resistance

21:54

or lots of different feelings

21:58

. Like you

22:00

know , it's so common to kind

22:02

of put something off , like to be like , oh yeah

22:05

, I'll write my book someday or whatever

22:07

. You know , that's like such a common thing . I think it

22:09

is Like I feel like talking to people they're

22:11

like I'm not a writer , but like , oh yeah , I do

22:13

have this dream that I'll write a novel someday

22:16

. It's like so . It's so wild

22:18

to me , like I'm like that's amazing

22:20

. So you are actually a writer

22:22

, you know , or you are , you do , you

22:24

? You have this in you . It

22:31

doesn't . You know , it's not for just like specific people , but it does require that you

22:33

give space to it , and I think that can be . That can be something that

22:35

is hard to do , especially alone

22:38

, especially if you don't have the support . It's

22:40

like support systems for it , like

22:47

support systems for it . Yeah , there's all sorts of reasons , but I just think it's so cool to

22:49

actually find the ways in which , like , anyone

22:51

can like make a little more space for their

22:53

creativity and like see what

22:55

that grows into , because actually , that it's

22:57

a it's an ongoing process . Yeah

23:00

, you know and I think if we're looking at

23:02

artists and people who are doing that professionally

23:05

, I mean , first of all , not everyone who's like a

23:07

professional artist is not feeling stuck

23:09

Right . People can get like feel like they need

23:11

to mix it up in any sort of way , so

23:14

, but usually those are those

23:16

folks like have been doing something like this

23:18

for a long time . So you have to start where you are

23:21

.

23:21

Yeah , to

23:26

start where you are . Yeah , and I think that's like I think that's the hardest part in any creative

23:28

process , no matter who you are , whether you're well versed in creative creative processes or

23:31

you're not is like , can I actually

23:33

check in with where I am right

23:35

now for real ? Because , yeah , we

23:38

have a narrative in our head that , like , this is how

23:40

I do it . Like , yeah , this is how

23:42

I do it , this is how this last experience went

23:44

and that's all I know , to be true

23:46

, about like , what I know I can do

23:48

. I want to expand that in some way , so I'm just going

23:50

to keep doing that and wait for that like non repeating

23:53

element to show up . And that's where the

23:55

jumping off point is . But , like , even

23:57

in that process there's all sorts of like

23:59

. I

24:05

mean , I can't help but think about you know , like you said , like you're giving up part of yourself

24:07

to this transfer , transformative process of creativity , of whatever you're trying to express

24:09

. You're giving up part of yourself

24:11

and in some way shape or form that's . That's

24:13

a fear inducing experience . That's

24:15

a brief , laden experience

24:18

, because I was this person before

24:20

, but transformation means I'm not going to be

24:22

that person anymore . And am I okay with that

24:24

, because

24:30

that means I'm also giving this part of myself to the other , like what , whoever is going to

24:32

experience this with me , or if it's like a piece of art , like someone's

24:34

going to take it in , and

24:36

then that means part of me lives in

24:38

that . Now am I cool with that , like

24:42

it's , there's so much

24:44

in it . Oh

24:47

, that made me go do

24:52

you have ?

24:52

I'm so curious . I don't know if you don't

24:54

have to talk about this , if you don't want to , but I'm so curious

24:57

like if you have something in

24:59

particular for you that comes up like

25:01

do you have a medium that you work with ? Is there

25:03

some like , or where do you like

25:06

where you experience this

25:08

in yourself ?

25:10

are you ? Are you creating ? I can talk about myself happening

25:14

right now .

25:15

It's just where I want to go , but I was like I

25:17

don't know if that's something that's like .

25:18

I'm gonna do on this podcast , but

25:20

yeah , I mean this

25:22

is dbt in a nutshell , or like follow

25:25

the impulse and if I'm like , then you're

25:27

like okay , that's where we go yep

25:30

, or it's like oh yeah , there's energy there

25:32

. I mean like , okay

25:34

, we'll go there . Okay

25:37

, so my creative processes tend to fall

25:39

in . I

25:42

mean , um , I

25:45

think historically , like when I'm going back

25:47

to like childhood stuff , it's , it's music

25:49

.

25:51

Oh cool .

25:52

Music and dance Cause . Dance was the first

25:54

creative thing that I ever . I was like

25:56

three when I started dance classes and

25:58

my mom like threw me in dance classes . I was

26:00

in like seven dance classes a week and

26:02

so , like , dance was the first way I learned

26:04

like how to express , but through the body . what

26:08

really , what I really loved about

26:10

dance was the music that you got to move your body

26:12

to amazing and

26:14

so I was like , okay , well , I want to move my body

26:16

to music that makes like , makes sense to

26:18

my body . And then I remember telling

26:20

my mom , like I'm gonna be a rock star . And

26:22

she's like , well , you should start music lessons . Then

26:25

so like , so

26:27

that's how . And I think I

26:31

think I went up to my choir teacher and said

26:33

I'd like to join the choir but I was in the band . So

26:35

like , I was in the band

26:37

and you weren't supposed to do both , and

26:39

I was like , no , I'm gonna do both , I'm gonna do I'm

26:42

gonna sing and I'm gonna play an instrument . Like that's

26:44

how this is gonna go . So I think , like

26:46

, because those were my initial like

26:48

, like childhood

26:51

places and I have found like through

26:53

like my own work in the last few years

26:55

, the older I get , the more I

26:57

need the processes I need I had as a

26:59

child , and so it's music and and

27:02

dance . But

27:04

music , this dance , was really about

27:06

the music a lot , and dance was the

27:08

expression of how the music made me feel , so

27:11

like Music

27:13

. And now , as I've gotten older

27:16

, writing . So it's all three of those like smushed

27:18

together .

27:20

Do you still make music now

27:23

?

27:25

Yeah .

27:27

I do .

27:36

Cut to one of Kim's songs . I don't know what I'm gonna say , but I will tell

27:38

you there's like it's blurred , but there's a drum set right there .

27:40

Oh amazing , there's two guitars back there . You

27:42

are a rock star . When you just shared that story , kim , I was

27:44

like , oh my god , I can totally see that , just like little Kim being like mommy , I'm gonna be

27:46

a rock Kim . I was like , oh my God , I can totally see that

27:49

Just like little Kim being like mommy , I'm going

27:51

to be a rock star . And I'm like , dude , you

27:53

are . Of course , that makes so much sense

27:55

for you . Tracks , tracks

27:58

.

27:59

I mean truthfully , I wanted to be .

28:00

I can really see it .

28:01

I wanted to be somebody like Cyndi Lauper , like

28:03

everybody , like I liked Madonna too . But Cyndi

28:06

Lauper was like , well

28:09

, I wanted to be Madonna too

28:11

, I just wanted to be like that

28:13

. And then , like I started seeing like the eras of

28:15

like how pop music

28:17

changed , and I was like , oh no , I don't want

28:19

to , I don't want to , I

28:22

don't want to . But anyway , yeah , okay .

28:23

So there's still room for all of it . You

28:27

know , everyone's doing everything , Everyone's doing it all . You

28:29

know Right , so okay .

28:31

I wanted to ask you the same reverse

28:33

. Oh , no , go ahead . You answer .

28:37

Well , I was actually thinking about when I

28:39

asked you that question . I was thinking about fiction

28:42

writing , cause I've studied

28:44

fiction writing in undergrad . It

28:47

will always have a place in my heart I'm still a fiction writer and I actually lead a fiction writing

28:49

in undergrad . It will always have a place in my heart . I'm still a fiction writer and I

28:51

actually lead fiction writing groups

28:53

now , using this like

28:56

using drama therapy

28:58

to help people get generating

29:00

and like kind of like finding

29:03

their blocks and like working

29:05

around them , working through them

29:08

. So I love this

29:10

combination of things and

29:13

I was thinking when I was asking

29:15

you about that . I was thinking , like about how

29:17

, in my writing process , I

29:20

just like consistently have

29:22

been amazed

29:24

by and frustrated

29:27

by the fact that every

29:29

time I I almost every time I sit down

29:31

to write , I feel dread

29:33

. Yes , it's

29:35

like always there . It's just

29:37

always there , and it's something

29:39

that I think is fascinating

29:41

because I'm like oh , this is why

29:44

you know people

29:47

. And I should also preface this with saying

29:49

, like it's when I'm really working on projects

29:51

that are important to me . It's when I'm working on things

29:53

that I know I want

29:55

to have

29:58

out in the world . It's things that

30:00

I , it's stories that I

30:02

know like sort of very

30:05

deeply in my imagination

30:07

. When I sit down to free

30:09

write , if I'm like in a free writing , you

30:11

know group , it's a different thing

30:14

. I'm just like word vomit

30:16

, like that was pretty . I can read this to

30:18

somebody . But you know , and then not

30:20

to discount that , cause sometimes really real

30:22

things come out of those things too , and that's how we

30:24

do it . But when you sit down

30:26

and you know you're

30:29

going to work towards something , it's

30:40

, it's there's dread , there's like , there's fear , there's avoidance , there's frustration . There's

30:42

so many different things that come up that make it feel like almost

30:44

impossible to do it , and

30:48

I think that's why for so long I I

30:50

resented the the . There's

30:53

a kind of classic

30:55

like writing advice

30:57

that people will like

30:59

, that writers will give

31:02

to other writers , which is like , if you , if

31:04

you want to write , you need to write every day

31:06

. And I for

31:09

so long , like , have resented

31:11

that piece of advice because I

31:14

have felt like , how

31:16

am I supposed to do this

31:18

every day ? Like , are you freaking

31:21

, kidding me ? Like torture

31:25

, you know ? And , second of all , I need

31:27

some help from someone if I'm going

31:29

to be sitting with these feelings

31:31

every day . So you

31:34

know , this is why I'm doing this work now is

31:36

because I've sort of

31:38

piecemealed my own support

31:40

together through my

31:42

own therapy process . Doing just just

31:44

doing regular talk . Therapy has been so helpful

31:47

to my creative process . Doing dbt

31:49

training therapy was so helpful to my creative

31:52

process and I

31:54

feel like , you know

31:56

, I'm now in this position where I can

31:58

give other people the support that I have really

32:00

needed in the past . Ah

32:03

, and still need , you know , and still need and still

32:05

have . So , relevance , relevance

32:07

, yep , relevance , oh

32:10

, look at that oh

32:18

, my god .

32:19

Um , okay , I

32:22

had a . I had a question that hold

32:24

on . I'm looking through my notes , please hold . Actually

32:27

, that's where I mean what you're kind of talking

32:29

about , because you're like the feelings come up yes

32:32

, yeah , that I'm gonna

32:34

go into empaths . Yeah , yes , but like I

32:36

also don't want to like lose our our

32:38

discussion on creativity , and that's where

32:40

my brain just got kind of like stuck , which is

32:42

hilarious , because it was like about empaths that

32:45

gave me an empath , so it's like it's like

32:47

shame begets shame , impasse begets

32:49

impasse we're shame spiraling

32:51

right now .

32:52

That's exactly what's happening . Oh

32:56

, fart , wait , what happened ? Did something

32:58

happen to make that happen ? Or was it

33:00

just like a like trying to connect different

33:03

pieces ? You're so good , um

33:07

, I love , I'm doing it , we're

33:09

doing it right now , that's what's important

33:11

. It's like oh , what's happening in the transition

33:13

? Right Like we . It's like juicy

33:16

stuff usually .

33:17

That is a perfect segue to talking

33:20

. I will , like I'm going to the notes

33:22

, can sit there because we're we are here , friend

33:24

, yeah , yeah , okay . So the

33:28

concept of impasse in the

33:30

creative process . So

33:33

Marie has written a paper on

33:35

impasse . So in order for us to graduate

33:37

from our developmental training institute , we have to write

33:39

a final paper . We have to do a whole bunch of other stuff too , but

33:42

for some reason that paper is

33:44

a

33:47

behemoth . It's a behememoth . And

33:49

so a friend

33:51

of ours recommended that I read , uh

33:53

, marie's paper on impasse , because I had been

33:55

at my own place of like creative block

33:57

. And so I reached out to marie

33:59

and said , like marie , I heard you wrote

34:01

your final paper and that it's on impasse . May

34:04

I read it ? And gratefully , marie said yes

34:06

, and I read it and was like , oh

34:11

my God . And so like , can you

34:13

talk to us about ? So ? I guess

34:15

I should say no , I'm not gonna say anything

34:17

. How do you define

34:20

impasse and what is its purpose in the creative

34:22

process ?

34:25

Oh God , can you define it ? I want to hear

34:28

your , your . I want to hear your version of it first

34:30

okay I

34:32

look at .

34:33

Well , it's interesting because now I have , like the neuroscience

34:36

of creativity language stuck in my head

34:38

, totally yeah which is different

34:40

than the dvt understanding of impasse

34:42

well , you know what ?

34:44

okay , let's maybe even what

34:46

just happened right like in , because you'll

34:49

probably hear it in this podcast too , which

34:51

is oh for sure , I'm like oh , I like getting meta

34:53

with it , because I think then it's like even more

34:55

, there's more energy around it , because it's like , look , we all just

34:57

experience this thing , so we can just point

34:59

to the thing we just experienced . Yes , um

35:02

like so in in play

35:04

and drama therapy , when you're

35:06

doing a session , um , when

35:09

, you're in the middle of a play and

35:11

then you're doing something

35:13

really exciting or something really engaging

35:15

. then something happens and

35:17

then like the energy drops , yeah

35:20

, and this happens in conversations

35:22

all the time . So we just so we know

35:24

we probably had a few actually at this point where it's just

35:26

like we're talking , we're like trying to get in the flow

35:28

, we're trying to get in the uh kind

35:30

of like jam together , yeah

35:32

, and like sometimes you're in the flow and then

35:34

sometimes you're not and you're still moving

35:37

, but then sometimes also the energy drops

35:39

or you're kind of like , okay , wait , what was I thinking , what

35:42

was I just about to say ? Or something you said

35:44

made me think something . Um

35:48

, and there's like a pause . It

35:50

makes like things kind of like slow

35:52

down or stop altogether in some way

35:54

. And I

35:57

mean I just actually the more I

35:59

do with

36:01

creative process and the , and especially

36:03

since writing that paper , that was like such

36:06

a huge thing to work

36:08

through in myself , because I was talking also

36:10

about my own creative

36:12

, my own experience in

36:14

training , therapy and the things that

36:16

I was kind of working through in that , and

36:19

impasse was a big part of it , and

36:22

for so

36:25

long I had all a lot

36:27

of shame around this

36:29

experience of impasse , and

36:31

I think that's actually quite common

36:33

, because I think when something's

36:36

flowing and then something

36:38

stops , there can be like a

36:40

tendency to be like wait , did I do

36:42

that ? Or like what happened , like this is

36:44

a problem , right To see it as like something

36:48

went wrong . Or like why

36:50

couldn't we keep a good thing going

36:52

? You ? know , forever

36:54

, yes , and

36:57

now

36:59

I like thinking about it actually

37:01

as like a in conversation

37:04

kind of thing is is makes

37:06

it a little bit easier for me . Kind

37:11

of thing is is makes it a little bit easier for me , um , because I love talking to people

37:13

and it's like , oh yeah , of course , like there are moments where this like drop

37:15

happens , but , um

37:19

, often I think in those moments there's

37:21

like a return to the inside

37:24

of us or somewhere else , like

37:26

our mind goes somewhere else and we're

37:28

like trying to make sense of something . And

37:32

this happens like in like

37:34

any kind of creative flow too

37:36

, where you're doing something

37:38

and it's really working and then all of a sudden

37:40

, you hit like a snag and

37:43

it's like wait

37:45

, ah , like , and

37:47

so many different feelings can come up . You can be like I'm

37:49

done . You can be like

37:51

okay , great , that's the end of it , you

37:54

know . Or like you could be like I'm so frustrated

37:56

. Or you know , have like

37:58

a lot of shame . Come in and be like , ah , I

38:00

didn't do this right . Um

38:03

, you know there can be grief about

38:06

it . Yep , um

38:12

, because you're you lost

38:14

something , you know , in losing that flow . So

38:21

I am fascinated by this because I think , because

38:23

I have experienced a lot of it and I have

38:26

always held a lot of attention around it

38:29

, and and also

38:31

I think it's this I think

38:33

it's a natural part of this

38:35

kind of process that we

38:37

are all engaged in all the time , but

38:39

I think also , culturally , we don't make a lot of

38:42

space for it as having any

38:44

value . And

38:46

I think it has so much value

38:48

. I think it's . I think it's like

38:50

a , a gold mine basically , of

38:52

like what's happening here and how can we

38:55

like look at this differently ? And I think

38:57

, like you know , we live in a culture that's so like

38:59

go , go , go forward all the time , but

39:01

actually , if we like kind of notice the like

39:03

places where there's

39:05

like an energy dip or like there's like a

39:07

pause or like wait , we have to go backwards

39:10

. We have to like find something that

39:12

we forgot there's . There's

39:14

so much more richness

39:17

, I think , to the process of

39:19

, yeah , just living and creating

39:21

and everything that we do .

39:23

You know , yes , yeah

39:26

, oh , my God , you've said so much that makes every synapse

39:28

in my brain fire . Like I think about the , like

39:31

, the reasons for impasse , but I

39:33

also think about like how , like

39:35

your question of like , how do I define it ? I think

39:37

, historically , because of DBT training

39:39

, I my go-to answer

39:42

was it's the drop in energy

39:44

, it's losing interest in

39:46

something . But I didn't really actually

39:48

ask myself , like losing interest

39:51

, like what does that mean to me ? And

39:53

then assigning a value to it . Like if I'm

39:56

leading a group and

39:58

there's an impasse within the group and I

40:00

was the leader , I would assign a

40:02

value of like you said , like I've done

40:04

something wrong , as , yeah , and

40:07

therefore the group didn't

40:09

know where to go next , and so

40:11

that's on me . I should have

40:13

given them more scaffolding , I fucked up

40:15

, crap . Okay , let's

40:17

go back to the beginning and rebuild it again . And

40:20

it wasn't until I read your paper

40:22

that I was like wait , the value

40:24

of rest , the

40:26

value of giving yourself

40:28

permission to be like wait this , because

40:31

like there's a beautiful

40:33

article written about impasse

40:35

that came long before us , about death

40:38

as impasse or impasse as death , and

40:40

so it was like the death of something before the

40:42

new thing was reborn , and so that's

40:44

kind of how I envisioned impasse to be

40:46

. But then , when you like , and that's in terms

40:48

of DBT , but

40:50

I would also like own the value of

40:53

it , like , okay , well , I did

40:55

bad , yeah , we

40:58

did the bad death thing , the bad

41:00

death . Now I have to re like

41:02

, reinvigorate

41:04

you with life and something you know like , and

41:07

oftentimes like in a , a group , like if that's

41:09

our association to what like an impasse

41:11

is , then the imagery that comes up in the play

41:13

is then like okay , zombies are now we're

41:16

playing with zombies or we're playing with a

41:18

different , like version 2.0 , because

41:20

that's what we're all kind of like , stuck with what we think

41:23

impasses right , right

41:25

right but when I read your paper and

41:27

you were like , no , what if impasse is actually

41:29

a part of the process , not the end of

41:31

one in the beginning of another ? but it is one

41:33

huge thing and I

41:35

have to honor it with the same

41:38

reverence I do as every

41:40

other step in that process . Yeah

41:42

, to then say like okay , then

41:45

that would mean just as important as

41:47

that beginning for a DVT group , a sound movement

41:49

that starts our like language of

41:51

what the group is . Then

41:54

I have to honor the language of the silence too

41:56

, because it's serving a purpose , because

41:59

what will be emerging

42:01

from that will be more

42:03

congruent with where

42:05

that human is in that moment and

42:08

where they want to go . But they have like , I

42:10

think , like for me . I'm a highly

42:12

sensitive person , which means my depth of processing

42:15

it is deep and

42:17

that my processing was so deep

42:19

that sometimes I am a slow motion

42:22

mover , especially

42:24

in groups . And it doesn't have to be a DVT

42:26

group . It could be like a group chat , it

42:29

could be a group out on

42:31

it for a night on the town and everybody's in conversation

42:33

. They have already . Because

42:35

it's a group , people are like firing off

42:38

and I'm like that

42:40

thing you just talked about like 10

42:42

minutes ago , is blowing my mind .

42:46

I'm still thinking about it . Can we have

42:48

like a little sidebar and talk ?

42:49

about it for an hour . Yes , because

42:52

, like , I want like the nitty gritty , like

42:54

, okay , you said this word and what does that mean to you

42:56

and how does it feel in your body ? And , oh my God

42:58

, like , but like . What does it mean to you

43:00

? Because that is the emergence of like . How

43:02

do I find you and how do I build the bridge to

43:05

you ? Because I'm going to bring to that conversation

43:07

what I define that as and

43:09

like . That's why I think I start the podcast off with like

43:12

, tell me who you are and let's define

43:14

what we're talking about . Because , like , I don't know what

43:16

creativity means to Marie today

43:18

. I might've known what it meant to you a month ago

43:20

, but you're a different human

43:22

than you were a month ago , and so

43:25

am I . So

43:31

, like , because of you know circumstances that we're all every day going through in

43:33

our lives . So , like you're still consistently Marie and you're not Marie

43:35

that from before , you're new Marie , like , same

43:38

. So like I want to

43:40

know . And so I think , when it comes to impasse

43:43

, sometimes it's that like

43:45

I am moving at a different pace

43:47

and you're not , and we don't know how to find each

43:49

other , and it takes a minute Sometimes

43:52

it's like whatever you said brought up a feeling

43:54

for me and I have a different relationship

43:56

to that feeling . Like

43:58

, or okay , like , let's take grief . Yes , exactly

44:01

Right . So like talking to somebody about

44:03

grief , and early on in my grief process

44:05

, those first couple years , any

44:07

time somebody mentioned anything

44:10

about loss , I was like we're

44:12

in it , dude , oh my God . And then I'd

44:14

immediately leave mentally for a second

44:16

, think about my mom , think about my friends that

44:18

died , and I'd be like and

44:21

have to try to like walk my way back to

44:23

the present moment . Now

44:26

it's we're coming up on five years

44:28

since my mom has died . I can

44:30

sit with my . I've done enough work on my

44:32

grief to work with other people in their grief

44:34

. I won't completely go away

44:36

. But if I'm in a creative process and

44:39

somebody's like , okay or whatever it is , yeah

44:41

, a creative process , and it's like grief

44:43

enters the picture , enters the chat , or

44:46

loss enters the chat , I'm gonna

44:48

check out for a second , I'm gonna dissociate , and

44:50

that is the impasse . And and

44:53

the others like where did you go ? And that

44:55

happens in relationships , I think

44:57

, where people are like yo , I was

44:59

talking to you , are you even listening to me ? Yeah

45:02

, and then they get upset because they feel unheard

45:04

and you're like I just totally you

45:06

said the thing that makes me go to the place

45:08

or whatever it is yeah , exactly

45:11

.

45:12

No , I love that Kim wow yeah , thanks for

45:14

bringing that in , because that actually is so

45:16

powerful and so relevant to what we're

45:18

talking about . Because I was actually

45:20

just thinking about when

45:23

you were talking about the groups , like

45:25

doing a group and having this experience

45:28

of like , this

45:30

kind of like death process , of like

45:32

, oh , we were doing a thing and now we're not . Now

45:34

and although , like , if you're a leader , you're

45:36

like assigning this like thing

45:39

, of like I did something wrong , but

45:41

something about the

45:44

experience of that drop , I was

45:46

also thinking about how

45:49

that can happen with ruptures , like it

45:51

could happen , like for so many different

45:53

reasons and at any kind of time

45:56

. But when you're talking about grief , I

45:58

was thinking , yeah , there's so much about

46:00

we

46:02

don't know . Actually there's , there's

46:04

like a not knowing and

46:07

that the empath sort of puts us

46:09

in touch with , because

46:12

if you're engaged in a process

46:14

or engaged in play or a conversation

46:17

with someone , you

46:20

kind of know where you are in

46:23

your and you're like jamming

46:26

and like figuring out where each other are and there's

46:28

like feedback and you're you're adjusting

46:30

as you go , um

46:32

, but there's something about like an impasse

46:34

that really puts , I think puts us in touch

46:36

with like , oh , we don't know what

46:39

comes next ever

46:41

, and we don't even know what's

46:44

happening inside the other person

46:46

you know , and they might not even know what's happening inside

46:48

themselves . Yep , so there's like unknowing

46:51

, there's like not not knowing , and

46:53

how you relate to that .

46:56

Yeah .

46:57

And grief . I mean , yeah , what

46:59

a powerful topic , right Like death

47:01

and having lost people

47:03

that we love . There

47:06

is so much not knowing in

47:08

that much .

47:10

Well , every day is like a wait . I don't know how to do

47:12

this without the person , or I don't know how to

47:14

do that without the person .

47:15

Like every day , it's like a new discovery yeah

47:18

for a while , for the first

47:21

years , yeah

47:23

, like you're , like you're , kind of you also have

47:25

your , you , this experience of

47:28

being very intimately engaged

47:30

in your own empaths process

47:33

.

47:33

Right , yeah , yeah , yeah . So

47:36

, like because

47:38

this is a podcast about identity , it's

47:40

kind of like in your experiences

47:42

and like how

47:45

you've like navigated your life

47:47

. How does empathasse and creativity

47:49

because they're very different concepts impasse as a part

47:51

of creativity , but , like

47:53

, how do they show up for you in your experiences

47:56

and who you are ?

48:03

Yeah , that's a great question . I

48:08

mean , it's so funny . I feel like we , when

48:10

we were talking about getting ready for this podcast

48:12

too and for this episode

48:14

, and we were talking about

48:16

empaths , and you were like

48:19

, well , you're like an expert on empaths , right

48:21

? Like , oh

48:23

God , am I ? I

48:27

mean , we've already discussed that We'm

48:29

not an , we're not experts . But there

48:32

is like this thing where something

48:35

that has been part

48:37

of your experience , uh

48:39

, for so long , you know , will sort

48:41

of follow you and like I have

48:43

that with , with impasse I actually didn't

48:45

even have the language . I will say , like the

48:47

word impasse is kind of new to

48:50

me . I mean new in that I

48:52

think I wasn't familiar with it

48:54

really until we I started dbt training

48:56

because there was an , a word for it in

48:58

the process , yeah , but I

49:01

had experienced impasse

49:03

forever , you know , um

49:05

and yeah

49:08

, and my first thought so , yeah

49:10

, there's this very mixed relationship

49:12

that I have with this thing that I've been building

49:15

a relationship to over time and

49:17

have all these like struggle

49:20

experiences with you know

49:22

, and actually also very , quite painful

49:24

experiences with quite

49:26

painful experiences

49:29

with , and so there it's like even now , like

49:31

I'm like , yeah , I guess it is part of my identity

49:34

. I mean , I don't know if identity that's like a

49:36

strong word , it's

49:41

strong . Yeah , it's definitely part of my experience . Yeah , it's definitely been part

49:43

of my experience and continues to be , though I do think my relationship to it now has is

49:45

much better and different

49:48

than it used to be . And the thing I

49:50

was going to say was , I sort

49:52

of talked about this before but , um

49:55

, I mean , even when I started dbt training

49:57

, when I experienced

49:59

impasse in the play , that actually was one of the

50:01

first first experiences

50:03

I ever had of being

50:06

in the play space , which

50:08

, again , I'll just like reiterate

50:11

that I think I see this like play process

50:14

as being so parallel

50:18

to so many other processes and part of what

50:20

I love so much about it and love using it with people

50:22

with creative process . So

50:25

this is , like you know

50:27

, not just just to to talk about dvt , but

50:29

like as like a metaphor for other

50:32

life processes that I've had too

50:34

. Yeah , which is that my

50:37

when I my first experiences of dvt

50:39

. But I think what's so cool about dvt is like it's

50:41

embodied , so you're really like you're really in it really

50:43

quickly , right , you're like I'm in my body , other

50:45

people are in their bodies and like we're doing

50:47

something , but it's not clear

50:50

really what it is , or it

50:52

becomes clear over time . It's like the storytelling

50:54

process and the first

50:56

ever experience I had of playing

50:59

I was in a group and

51:01

it when I very

51:03

quickly became sort

51:06

of immobilized in my body because

51:08

I was so overwhelmed with

51:10

all the activity that was going on and

51:13

I didn't know what to do or where

51:15

I was , and I like sort of checked

51:18

out and like ended up in a corner , like I'm like

51:20

crouching on the floor , sort of hiding

51:22

from the rest of the group , like being

51:25

like I don't know if I'm part of this . This

51:27

is crazy you know , um

51:30

and uh

51:32

. I just like it's . It sticks

51:34

in my memory because I

51:36

had so much

51:38

uh like

51:41

confusion

51:44

, shame like curiosity

51:47

yes like fascination

51:50

with this thing that was

51:52

happening that I couldn't

51:54

understand and didn't know why or

51:57

what it was , but I was like , okay

51:59

, this is making me feel a lot of things . I'm

52:02

gonna . I'm gonna probably pursue this

52:04

. Such a funny

52:06

response to something that was so weird

52:08

.

52:08

You know that was my response too .

52:12

And then you know , and then I like went on to study

52:14

DVT and for the next

52:17

few years and it was like , so I

52:19

think , like I

52:22

yeah , that's like one thing I can point

52:24

to where I was like , oh , I , I . It

52:26

became very clear in that moment to

52:28

me and I can think about this for so many

52:30

other things too where it's like the

52:32

thing that's hard , the thing that I

52:34

can't quite figure

52:37

out , but I really want to figure out , that's

52:40

where they're , all the energy

52:42

is . And maybe in that moment

52:44

, because I'm fighting or like

52:46

really trying to figure it out , and I can't quite

52:48

untie the pieces that are all like

52:50

knotted together and there's different threads

52:52

, but like I don't know what's separate from each other . It's

52:56

not flowing necessarily

52:58

, but there's so much there that has

53:00

so much potential to

53:02

get like pieced out

53:04

and unlocked and unraveled

53:07

. And then you can see like this whole

53:09

picture that's like actually about

53:11

all these other things , and so it's sort

53:13

of like I don't know what to compare

53:15

it to , like I was trying to find another

53:17

kind of , but maybe that's just it . It's

53:20

like this like angle , it's a

53:22

knot and that's where that like

53:24

we talk about this in play , but we

53:26

follow . Sometimes we follow

53:28

where the energy

53:30

is , and that doesn't mean

53:33

where you like or

53:35

what you . It doesn't just

53:37

mean what is giving you

53:39

pleasure , what feels like it's flowing

53:41

right . Sometimes it means what's

53:44

like oh , this

53:47

is complicated this has a

53:49

lot of stuff in there

53:51

, but it's all tied together and we don't quite

53:53

know how to make sense of it yet

53:55

yes , I think that energy yeah

53:58

, it's the energy and that it's like . It's like

54:00

where is there like yeah , I don't even want

54:02

to call it a block necessarily , it just feel

54:04

like like a knot of things if yeah

54:06

there's a lot of things tied up together .

54:09

I mean honestly , that makes me think

54:11

about like then where impasse happens

54:14

, because I think about in play therapy , when I'm working

54:16

with a kid , like

54:18

if a kid is playing with

54:20

something and they're like in it and all of a sudden they like , forget

54:23

it . They don't say forget it , they just up and yeah , yeah , yeah

54:25

, like . As

54:27

a , as a play therapist , we're meant to notice

54:29

, like , what was the kid doing right before that happened

54:32

and what were they playing with ? Like , yeah , like

54:34

, like , thematically speaking

54:36

, because that likely has a tie

54:38

to like , did we get too close

54:40

, yeah , to the material that they're

54:42

actually like ? Because , like so much

54:45

of like in this work that we're talking

54:47

about the creative process and

54:50

play for children , there's like

54:53

a through line there and we're

54:56

playing in the world of metaphor , we're playing

54:58

in the world of imagery , we're playing in the world of

55:00

analogy , but

55:02

like we're still playing with what's

55:05

at the core of that , like we might be

55:07

still in a metaphor , but

55:09

the metaphor is only the like layer

55:11

on top of what

55:14

, the experience , the feeling

55:16

, the memory , the whatever

55:19

is . And it , like our nervous

55:21

systems don't know the difference between

55:23

lived yes , I'm

55:25

living this right now in reality or

55:28

I'm playing in this imaginal

55:30

way , the nervous system just knows I'm doing

55:32

the thing , so it's still gonna have

55:35

the benefits of like you

55:37

know , whatever it is . But like , if

55:39

we think about the role of impasse , then , like

55:41

the thing that the like that's an impasse in a

55:43

play therapy session , is the kid going like

55:46

I'm gonna go play with the bricks now

55:48

. It's like you know , there's like cardboard

55:50

brick , that , and it's like , oh , okay

55:52

, so we're using something very tangible and like building

55:55

something to create , like bring down the anxiety

55:57

. Because , like the ambiguity of

55:59

playing in a imaginal way with

56:01

these characters was so thematically

56:04

close to what your lived experience is . We

56:06

got too close . Now we need to contain

56:08

, we

56:15

need to structure , we need to whatever . But like again , like metaphor , like that's in a child's play

56:17

therapy session , we're doing this all the time in conversation . Like if

56:19

we hit an impasse , it's like , oh , did we ? We

56:21

got , we got close to a feeling or

56:23

an experience that maybe the

56:25

two of us don't want to wrestle with right now

56:27

because it's whatever , um

56:30

, or like I haven't done my

56:32

work on it , you have , and so like

56:34

we don't know how to negotiate that and so

56:36

we just go , yeah

56:39

, and then , like somebody says , oh

56:41

, how about the weather ? Huh , it's been snowing a lot

56:44

lately yes , exactly

56:46

yeah , I

56:48

love that .

56:49

As you were talking about that , I was thinking about

56:52

how fiction writing does

56:54

the same thing , because it's you

56:56

know , fiction writing is like you can . You're

56:58

making a world , it could be anything . So it's

57:00

all it's all metaphor in a lot of ways for

57:03

whatever you're thinking about

57:05

living , experiencing . But

57:07

I was just thinking about how there

57:10

also can be this feeling of like

57:12

oh , like you

57:14

know that's avoidance . Or like

57:16

if you're like , oh , hit this thing , like

57:18

I gotta go over here now , like

57:21

how we can kind of say , well

57:23

, and then now that's not the right thing to

57:25

do . But actually I

57:28

think maybe the goal isn't even

57:30

necessarily and I don't I'm

57:32

not saying this is what you were saying , but I was

57:34

making me think about how I've thought

57:36

about it in the past and I was

57:38

thinking the goal might not even to

57:40

be , might not even

57:42

be to stay

57:45

with the hard thing all the time

57:47

, but to but to know the

57:50

, the process right , because

57:52

we can . We can be like we'll hit a

57:54

sensitive point in the conversation and be like , okay , actually

57:56

the weather and not

57:58

, and we can do that and not even

58:00

realize that we're doing it . But

58:03

I think what's so juicy is

58:05

like if you can do it and

58:08

then and you can switch to the weather

58:10

and then , but know that that's what you're

58:12

doing and know that that's what you have

58:14

as , like a , as a out

58:17

. You know , and that could also show up in your creative

58:19

process , whatever you're doing , to just know

58:21

like , oh yeah , when I hit this thing

58:23

, I do this other thing and that's part

58:25

of my , and then maybe I actually need some

58:28

space to look at it

58:30

from over here and not

58:32

be right next to it , but to be

58:34

like , yeah , the weather , speaking

58:37

of the weather , you

58:39

know what that reminds me of this other thing ? You

58:41

know , it's like kind of like be

58:43

giving yourself the right distance , or

58:46

like allowing yourself to play with that

58:48

too . Like with the , yes , with

58:50

the .

58:51

Coping with the , with all the patterns

58:53

that exist in you , yes

58:55

can I introduce a

58:57

concept to you and then get your thoughts about

58:59

it ? Okay , yes , I would love that . So

59:02

, um , I've gone down the pathway of

59:04

the neuroscience of creativity and

59:06

and in one of the resources that

59:08

I'm utilizing , they mentioned

59:10

there's like you know how they love to have these , like , like

59:12

, catch things so you learn and remember

59:14

things . They said there's four P's

59:17

of the creative process , or

59:20

for creativity , rather , but the thing I should

59:22

also point out that I hadn't really put a lot of thought

59:24

about . I say creativity in my world

59:26

, and I'm often thinking about artistically

59:29

, and then also like what is the creativity

59:31

of how I live my days ? Like how do I

59:33

choose ? Like what I'm wearing , or what's my morning ritual

59:35

, or all of those things , but then also like am

59:37

I like how do I create a playlist

59:40

I want to listen to ? Like , or whatever , like

59:42

I think about it in lots of ways , but

59:44

the indicators of being

59:47

able to recognize an instance of creativity

59:49

in the like , research

59:51

of creativity . I found this like

59:53

I don't know why I didn't think about it

59:55

in this terms . They said there's like the problem

59:57

solving , science , logic , creativity

1:00:00

, so they're studying like problem

1:00:04

solving , and like how we utilize , like

1:00:06

essentially non-repeating elements and

1:00:08

what factors need to be there

1:00:10

for somebody to create something new that will

1:00:12

be helpful for people . Then there's

1:00:14

the artistic domains , which is the way I always

1:00:16

viewed . Creativity was like , you

1:00:19

know , the arts of art , music , dance , literature

1:00:21

, fashion , all of those things

1:00:23

, theater but it's really the

1:00:25

sum of all of it . That is like

1:00:27

all of creativity and I was like , oh

1:00:29

yeah , because we're using the science , the logic

1:00:32

, the problem solving of creativity when we're

1:00:34

trying to create , we just don't like

1:00:36

lean into it yeah

1:00:38

, we are problem solving yeah .

1:00:41

I don't know if we talk about that very much though

1:00:43

in when we talk about , like

1:00:45

, artistic creativity , but it

1:00:47

is problem solving .

1:00:50

Yeah , I mean , there's so much discernment in that

1:00:52

process too of like , what

1:01:03

am I choosing ? Like , what am I trying to say ? How do I wish

1:01:05

to say it ? Yeah , and

1:01:07

when I do create something and I look at it then I'm like , well , does this exactly say what I want to say , how I want to

1:01:09

say it , or do I want to change it in some way , shape or

1:01:11

form ? But that's all

1:01:13

it's like . There's like the process , and then there's

1:01:15

these little processes like little .

1:01:18

Yeah .

1:01:23

But okay , so I was reading about

1:01:25

the four P's of creativity . So there's process

1:01:28

, the creative process , the product

1:01:30

, the person and the place . So

1:01:35

when it comes to the person , they say the

1:01:37

definition is the person generating the creative

1:01:39

idea or acts . So that would include

1:01:41

their personality , their intellect , their temperament

1:01:44

, their physique , their traits , their habits , their

1:01:46

attitudes , their self-concept , their value

1:01:48

systems , their defense mechanisms and their behavior

1:01:51

. That's a lot

1:01:53

more than a P . That's a lot more . Well

1:01:55

, that's all within person . Yeah

1:01:57

, and I was like but wouldn't you also consider culture

1:02:00

? Wouldn't you also consider like

1:02:03

so much more ?

1:02:04

Yeah .

1:02:05

Like , yeah , so I'm

1:02:09

going through these because there's a a part that

1:02:11

I was like oh , marie , and I gotta talk about this

1:02:13

. Um , product is obviously

1:02:15

like when an idea becomes embodied into

1:02:17

like the tangible form of what someone's trying to express

1:02:20

. That's the product . Now , here's

1:02:22

the one that I was like oh , so

1:02:25

the the so

1:02:27

process , product , person place

1:02:29

, this is place . But they , they

1:02:32

did like a diagonal place

1:02:34

, slash press , and

1:02:36

I was like what's , what's that mean ? So , really , it's

1:02:38

five p's . They lied um

1:02:41

pressures , the

1:02:43

fact . Oh , that's why I was

1:02:45

like we got to talk about

1:02:47

this ?

1:02:48

Oh , I like it . Why do I like it so

1:02:50

much ? This is why you do what you

1:02:52

do . That's

1:02:54

so annoying .

1:02:58

It's annoying at all , and if it is

1:03:00

, we are the most annoying mofos on

1:03:02

the planet . This

1:03:04

is like where I'm interested . That's why we're sitting

1:03:06

here talking about it , like it's

1:03:08

so interesting to me . Um

1:03:10

, yeah , so the factors that are present

1:03:12

in an individual's place , situation

1:03:15

or environment that influence their capacity

1:03:17

to be creative . So

1:03:20

like , interestingly

1:03:22

, there's research on all

1:03:24

of the . Well , I didn't go . I'll go through the fourth one and then I'll

1:03:26

tell you the other piece . Fourth stage is process

1:03:29

, which is what we've been talking a lot about

1:03:31

today . It's the study of , like

1:03:33

you know , the what underlies

1:03:35

creative thought , the motivation

1:03:38

, perception , the thinking

1:03:40

, the learning and the communicating , what we're

1:03:42

doing to create , um

1:03:45

, and involves the intricacies

1:03:47

of the creative mind . The process approach

1:03:49

readily aligns itself to the

1:03:51

neuroscientific perspective , so it's easy

1:03:53

to study it because you're like looking

1:03:56

at the different parts of the brain . All of these

1:03:58

have like all four or five

1:04:00

rather , but really four areas

1:04:02

have significant research . This is when I was talking

1:04:04

about how do you get empirical research and creativity

1:04:07

. Some of these have likeories

1:04:10

of research that are well

1:04:12

established . Empirical research is

1:04:14

there . Can you guess which one

1:04:17

doesn't have as much empirical research ?

1:04:21

is it pressure ? yes wow

1:04:23

, that's actually fascinating though , because

1:04:25

I feel like it would be so possible to

1:04:27

study and right , so obvious

1:04:30

, what like

1:04:33

when people talk about this all the time . Wow , I'm really

1:04:35

curious . That's so interesting . I wasn't sure

1:04:37

if I was gonna be right when I asked , when I guessed that

1:04:39

100 , because I also

1:04:41

have heard so much about I mean , I

1:04:43

was just thinking when you were saying pressures , I was

1:04:45

thinking about oh yeah , there's this whole thing , this whole

1:04:48

thing about ideal , the ideal

1:04:50

pressure . Right , you can have too much pressure . You

1:04:52

can also have too little pressure . Yes

1:04:54

, I think it's counterintuitive sometimes , yes

1:04:57

, um , but yeah

1:04:59

, the there's people talk about this

1:05:01

, uh-huh uh-huh .

1:05:03

Well , because , like , what you're alluding to

1:05:05

is like the , the idea of flow , which

1:05:08

which then kind of like

1:05:10

leads us to like optimal performance . So

1:05:12

that's true in like performing

1:05:14

arts , mental health , like to have

1:05:16

that , like you got to be a little anxious

1:05:19

, like a little bit , in order to like

1:05:21

do the thing , but you also can't like

1:05:23

pass the threshold or

1:05:26

you're not going to be able to remember , like what

1:05:28

chord you're playing , yes , yes

1:05:30

. And then you're checked

1:05:33

out and then you're noticing the person in front of you

1:05:35

like singing lyrics that

1:05:37

you're like wait , there's lyrics to the song like you're

1:05:39

just gone . How

1:05:42

do you help your folks identify

1:05:45

like what they need in order

1:05:47

to access different parts of themselves and their creativity

1:05:50

?

1:05:50

yeah , um

1:05:53

, well , the . I don't

1:05:55

know if this is where we want to

1:05:57

go , but I feel like the thing that's coming to

1:05:59

mind , which I think

1:06:01

is relevant for a lot of people , it's just like

1:06:03

the

1:06:05

amount of stress in

1:06:07

your everyday life and how it hampers

1:06:12

or motivates

1:06:14

you to do

1:06:17

something new or do something

1:06:19

creative , and

1:06:21

I think there's

1:06:24

like there such a balance

1:06:26

between is also there's the pressures , but

1:06:28

then there's also the structures

1:06:31

that you have to implement

1:06:34

these things like if you're , you know , I

1:06:36

don't know what's it , what's a good example ? Well

1:06:39

, I actually I'll just get you to use myself , because

1:06:41

I was in . I think this is

1:06:43

what I was just thinking about my different

1:06:45

experiences I've had , just

1:06:47

as I've gone on my own career

1:06:49

trajectory . It was

1:06:52

making me think about when

1:06:54

I was working . So , shortly after

1:06:57

I left CIS , when I

1:06:59

was in DBT training , I

1:07:02

was working also as a counselor

1:07:05

in the Alameda

1:07:07

foster

1:07:10

care system and working

1:07:13

with kids zero to 21

1:07:15

who had been removed

1:07:18

from their home

1:07:20

or was changing placement in the foster

1:07:23

care system , and it

1:07:25

was a super

1:07:27

like high

1:07:30

stress , I would say like trauma

1:07:32

filled environment . It was also

1:07:34

an amazing workplace filled

1:07:36

with really incredible

1:07:39

caring people and I

1:07:41

learned so much doing that

1:07:43

work . And

1:07:45

also I remember

1:07:48

sort of I was there

1:07:50

for two and a half to three years

1:07:52

and over the course of that

1:07:54

period I remember

1:07:56

, like towards the end of it , feeling like , wow

1:07:59

, I just don't have the

1:08:02

same space

1:08:05

in my life anymore for my own

1:08:07

creative stuff , like

1:08:09

I used to paint , I used to write a lot

1:08:11

and then , like when I started that job

1:08:13

, I was

1:08:15

so on all the time

1:08:17

, like my nervous system was just like so

1:08:20

on all the time when I was working that

1:08:23

I would home and you know , also work weird

1:08:25

shifts and stuff like that were like up

1:08:27

until midnight or , you know , I would

1:08:29

work swing shifts , so also

1:08:32

getting weird , weird sleep . And

1:08:34

I was just thinking about

1:08:36

that because I was thinking like , no matter who

1:08:38

you are , no matter what your job looks like

1:08:40

, you can be in a position where you're

1:08:42

giving so much of yourself to

1:08:45

something that

1:08:47

is also not leaving space

1:08:49

for other things

1:08:51

, or um . So

1:08:53

yeah , I think that I think about that is

1:08:56

related to this , like pressure

1:08:58

yeah um , pressure

1:09:01

conversation and

1:09:04

um , and I also think about , like I don't know , like

1:09:06

parents , like like moms who

1:09:08

are like giving so much of themselves to

1:09:10

their kids and also

1:09:12

working , and um

1:09:15

, just that it

1:09:17

can be really hard to actually

1:09:19

carve out time and space

1:09:21

for letting yourself

1:09:24

be creative when there's

1:09:28

all this other stuff that you have to

1:09:30

do . You know , and

1:09:32

I think that's that can be true for anyone

1:09:34

we can all get stuck in that trap , Like I don't have children

1:09:36

and I can get stuck in this , like

1:09:39

kind of like oh well , instead of sitting down

1:09:41

to write , I'm going to go do the laundry or whatever

1:09:43

. You know , yeah , but

1:09:45

so I

1:09:47

don't know , I'm kind of . I'm kind of I don't know

1:09:50

if I'm still on topic , but it's like there's

1:09:52

these . There's like I'm thinking about structures

1:09:55

and pressure as being sort of like

1:09:59

together , but they are set like these separate

1:10:01

pieces of it . Yeah .

1:10:04

There's so much in what you're saying

1:10:06

in different ways throughout our whole conversation

1:10:08

today that I'm hearing like the

1:10:11

importance of giving ourself permission

1:10:14

for space . Like

1:10:16

space , yes , huge

1:10:19

yeah , it does .

1:10:20

Yeah , and part of that is is eliminating

1:10:23

pressures if you , if you feel over

1:10:25

pressured in some way .

1:10:27

Right .

1:10:28

It's sort of like yeah

1:10:31

, like , what kind of space is it ? Is it actual

1:10:33

time or is it like energetic

1:10:36

space ? Because both , both are true . There's

1:10:38

like psychic space .

1:10:40

Uh-huh .

1:10:40

There's yeah Time

1:10:43

. There's physical space , right

1:10:48

, if you don't have a place to go to do something .

1:10:50

I mean , I think about writing

1:10:53

a final dvt paper maybe . Um

1:10:55

, like like

1:10:58

right before we recorded

1:11:01

this , I was speaking with chris and she was like

1:11:03

write your paper . And

1:11:05

I was like write your paper .

1:11:12

And I was like gotta go record a podcast , Bye . Be over

1:11:14

here talking about creativity .

1:11:19

That's amazing .

1:11:24

But like hold

1:11:29

on .

1:11:29

I need to laugh about that because that is

1:11:31

really funny . I think

1:11:33

it's funny and fun but

1:11:35

like the part that I've been stuck on

1:11:37

writing in my paper where I've been

1:11:40

like I was in flow , like when

1:11:42

I finally got to the place , because the

1:11:44

topic is about grief and also

1:11:46

deconstructing developmental transformation

1:11:48

concepts in my lived life , in

1:11:52

the experience of grief . But I couldn't start

1:11:54

writing that paper because I was

1:11:56

too under distanced . I was too absorbed

1:11:58

in it . I was too in it for

1:12:01

the first two years of my grief experience

1:12:03

. And then I said like , well , now I've got energy

1:12:05

, I want to get up and I want to go out and

1:12:07

do things and I'll write about that . And

1:12:10

so I found writing about

1:12:12

that early part initially

1:12:15

very difficult , but then , once I got into it

1:12:17

, I was able to do it . Writing about the

1:12:19

second part , when I went out and did , it was like

1:12:22

hey , this isn't that

1:12:24

bad , keep going . Part

1:12:27

. When I went out and did , it was like , hey , this isn't that bad , Keep going

1:12:29

. When I got to the part that was the hard , like how am I like

1:12:32

digesting this and what does this mean

1:12:34

and what am I trying to tell you about ? Like what

1:12:36

I'm learning about myself and others

1:12:38

in the world . Impasse

1:12:43

, so under

1:12:45

distance , because what I had learned was such a

1:12:47

brand new concept to

1:12:49

me , I did not have structures in

1:12:51

place to be

1:12:55

able to articulate it first of all for

1:12:58

myself , let alone for someone else

1:13:00

, about what it is . So I

1:13:02

think about the , the , the role of

1:13:04

like under distanced over distance , like of like under

1:13:06

distanced over distance , like if I'm too over distance , there's not

1:13:08

going to be any connectivity to what I'm saying

1:13:10

. It's going to sound like jargon , it's going

1:13:12

to sound like bullshit and I don't want that

1:13:14

. But if it's , that's if it's over distance

1:13:16

, if it's under distanced , I'm going to be a heaping

1:13:19

pile of which

1:13:23

. I think when I was in DVbt training initially

1:13:25

, like when you described , like your first group that you were

1:13:27

in that I had a very similar

1:13:30

experience . I was like I'm

1:13:32

not used to people relating to me in this way and

1:13:34

I want it so badly

1:13:36

and I'm so drawn to it and it terrifies the

1:13:39

hell out of me and so I am shutting

1:13:41

down internally and I do not know how to relate

1:13:43

to you . But I knew I wanted to go

1:13:45

back . I knew I wanted to like , find

1:13:49

my way there . But like that

1:13:52

process of trying to figure out like what

1:13:54

is happening for me so that I can

1:13:56

find you is

1:13:58

, was not only present in the dbt experience

1:14:00

but in this like creative process of

1:14:02

writing for me as well . I mean , there's

1:14:04

so many parallels because I think like we could talk about

1:14:07

dbt yes , this is this like most

1:14:09

people won't know what it is and we talk like kind

1:14:11

of tangent not tangentially and ambiguous

1:14:13

, ambiguously , and they'll be like I

1:14:15

still don't get what it is and I'm kind of

1:14:17

like it doesn't matter because it's literally like

1:14:19

shows up in everything else in our

1:14:21

lives , but

1:14:24

like especially the creative

1:14:26

process and writing .

1:14:28

Well , what you're talking about reminds me of

1:14:31

like this I feel it sounds

1:14:33

like what you're saying is like that these

1:14:35

patterns that come up in relationship

1:14:38

. You can tell me if this is what you're saying

1:14:40

or not ? This is something I think about a lot , so I

1:14:42

think it's connected where

1:14:44

these patterns that come up in relationship , where

1:14:46

you want to be seen but you also are scared

1:14:48

of that . The same

1:14:50

thing can happen when you're writing just

1:14:53

by yourself about anything

1:14:56

, but especially about something that

1:14:58

is about you , that you

1:15:00

are working through , because

1:15:03

you it like it

1:15:06

is a relationship . I think it

1:15:08

feels true to me that when

1:15:10

you're creating something , you're

1:15:12

you're actually relating to yourself

1:15:14

and you're also relating to something else

1:15:17

. I mean , I don't , I , I feel like there's this

1:15:19

other , that , this

1:15:21

other piece that's

1:15:23

sort of like mystery

1:15:26

and the world and your

1:15:28

psyche and everything that's

1:15:30

unconscious in you and all

1:15:32

this . There's a lot that's outside

1:15:35

of us . There's , it's a lot . There's a lot that's

1:15:37

bigger than us , and

1:15:39

I think you're relating to that

1:15:41

. Even if you're alone , you're

1:15:44

relating and you're creating something

1:15:47

. You're relating to the

1:15:50

energy of the day , you're relating

1:15:52

to your feelings , you're relating

1:15:54

to yeah , so that all of that is

1:15:56

happening and so the same

1:15:58

kind of patterns can come out

1:16:01

, because it's also relational .

1:16:03

Yeah . So it's , yeah , yes

1:16:05

, intra personal versus interpersonal

1:16:08

. Yeah , yeah

1:16:10

, I , since

1:16:13

since we we've been in training together

1:16:15

, I've gone totally down the union path

1:16:17

. So , like the it makes

1:16:19

me think of like the collective unconscious , of like

1:16:22

creating our own , we

1:16:24

have our own experience , but then we're also tied

1:16:26

to this larger humanity experience

1:16:30

that like we're kind of tapping into in

1:16:33

so many different ways . Um

1:16:35

, but it's also so ambiguous , because it's like what

1:16:37

do you mean ? The collective unconscious ?

1:16:39

but it's like what you're saying do

1:16:41

you feel like , yeah , when you're , I mean

1:16:44

it , you can also detour

1:16:47

us if you don't want to go here . But I'm curious about like

1:16:49

this like paper writing thing . It's

1:16:51

like do you have a specific

1:16:53

? It's

1:16:56

like a specific . Well , it's like a certain

1:16:59

part that makes it feel like and

1:17:01

you're like okay , no , I don't want to . It's it

1:17:03

makes me think of when I sit down to write and I feel dread

1:17:06

Like is that a similar ? Are you having a

1:17:08

similar feeling or experience

1:17:10

?

1:17:10

around it , yes , and like cause

1:17:12

, cause , because I'm that slow processor

1:17:15

I have to figure it out . Like

1:17:17

wait , what are the important parts

1:17:19

for me ? Totally , yeah . But

1:17:21

then it's like well , it's kind of like counterintuitive

1:17:23

because like , well , if you write about it , you're going to find the

1:17:25

important .

1:17:30

Right , right , I know .

1:17:31

And you're like . You're like , maybe I don't want to know .

1:17:32

Maybe I don't want to want to know what's important

1:17:35

yeah

1:17:46

, totally . Or you feel like you have to know already . Right , to sit down and write

1:17:48

. I think that's actually . That actually is so . I feel like I bet

1:17:50

so many people can relate to what you just said . It's like I feel like I have to know what

1:17:52

is going to come out of me before I sit down to do the thing . Yeah , right , this

1:17:54

is a block that happens in play all

1:17:56

the time , because people are like wait , you want me to move my body

1:17:59

without knowing what

1:18:01

I'm doing ? Are you kidding

1:18:03

? Kidding me ? It actually is like people have this

1:18:05

response where they're like no , no

1:18:07

. Like no , thank you , actually , I'm

1:18:09

gone . That's stupid . Or

1:18:14

like you want me to draw something

1:18:17

without knowing how

1:18:19

what it's gonna look like

1:18:21

no . Like you don't want to see that

1:18:23

People have this response where they're like no . Like you

1:18:25

don't want to see that you know people have this response . They're like no , you

1:18:27

don't want it . That's gonna be , that's gonna

1:18:29

be fugly you know you will be harmed by ugliness

1:18:32

. Yeah yeah

1:18:34

, yeah , but

1:18:37

yes . But then you are cutting yourself

1:18:40

off also from the experience

1:18:42

of surprising yourself or of

1:18:44

or of confirming your worst

1:18:47

nightmare and realizing that it's actually not

1:18:49

that bad . Nobody was really harmed by

1:18:51

your stick figure drawing . It was

1:18:53

maybe even kind of cute .

1:18:55

It's got a little like smiley face , like

1:18:57

yeah yeah

1:18:59

, oh , my god , um , okay

1:19:01

, so one other concept I wanted to run by

1:19:03

you and get your thoughts on because it felt very like

1:19:05

creative process-y and then I want to talk . We'll

1:19:08

bring our conversation to a close , okay

1:19:12

, so there's . Are you familiar with Graham

1:19:14

Wallace ? Okay

1:19:16

, some dude he's named Graham

1:19:19

came up with like a four stage of creative process

1:19:21

thing and it made me think when I

1:19:23

read it it it made me think of you and I was

1:19:25

like stole from marie

1:19:28

. Okay

1:19:31

, first stage is the preparation super

1:19:34

conscious , we're trying to figure out what do we want

1:19:36

to do , like , like

1:19:39

, whether it's a problem or a creative act

1:19:41

. Second stage is

1:19:43

incubation unconscious

1:19:47

process . Engagement

1:19:49

with the problem is at hand , but we don't take

1:19:51

any effort and it's directed towards

1:19:53

any , any effort , directed towards the problem

1:19:56

, because we need a period

1:19:58

of rest oh , my god , that's so good

1:20:00

, oh , that's so good right yes good Right

1:20:02

yes . Yes , and

1:20:05

I was like , oh , that just confirms , like Marie

1:20:07

, stamp of approval .

1:20:09

Because , like you're so

1:20:11

, like the period of rest is like the second

1:20:14

stage , because you love that

1:20:16

, I love that it's early on , because

1:20:18

we cause , I think , sometimes

1:20:20

I think of it as being later down the

1:20:23

line , when it's like , oh , and then I got stuck and

1:20:25

then I gave up , or I didn't want to do it , you know

1:20:27

, but it's actually like , yeah , what if you gave it

1:20:29

? What if you , what if you gave it its

1:20:31

own ? Yeah , I love it Second . I

1:20:34

love it Second . I love that it's great

1:20:37

.

1:20:37

It made me think of like when we've had previous

1:20:39

conversations and you talked to me about your final

1:20:41

paper writing and you were like I had to

1:20:43

like walk away from it .

1:20:45

Yes .

1:20:46

Like I had my job that I went to . It wasn't

1:20:48

the job that you just spoke about , it was a different

1:20:50

one , very different energy , and

1:20:53

you just put yourself in that environment

1:20:55

for a while and as

1:20:58

you continued on , you gave yourself

1:21:00

again more space energetically

1:21:03

, psychically , whatever , to

1:21:08

then create what you ended up creating . And I was like

1:21:10

this is Marie . I

1:21:15

got really excited when I read it .

1:21:17

Oh , I love that . That's so fun , kim

1:21:19

. No , it's so real

1:21:21

. I actually was talking about it

1:21:23

is making me think , oh , actually , yeah

1:21:25

, because sometimes actually

1:21:28

, if I were to track it I mean I'm

1:21:30

not saying there's not necessarily this like

1:21:32

map that fits all Right right but

1:21:34

. I do think sometimes

1:21:36

impasse happens right

1:21:38

after I realize that I need to do something

1:21:40

new and I've in the past thought , oh man , am I really

1:21:42

just giving up because it's too hard to think about doing something new ? And I've in

1:21:44

the past thought , oh man , am I really just giving up because it's

1:21:47

too hard to think about doing something new . But

1:21:50

the truth is that sometimes

1:21:53

I need time to

1:21:55

consider

1:21:57

this new thing

1:21:59

before I act on it

1:22:01

or do anything with it , or have the

1:22:03

act

1:22:08

on it or do anything with it , or have the juice to give it

1:22:10

time and space . And so , yeah , that makes sense that I

1:22:13

like that as a second step . I

1:22:15

love it that you could intentionally

1:22:17

give yourself too , that you could actually be like

1:22:19

I'm going to have an idea and

1:22:21

instead of going to work on that

1:22:24

immediately , I'm gonna now

1:22:26

not like sort of

1:22:28

subconsciously think about it for two weeks

1:22:30

, yeah , or a month , or

1:22:32

however long it takes .

1:22:33

You know , you get to decide it makes me

1:22:35

think of , like the folks let's say they're , um

1:22:38

, an artist and they're like a painter

1:22:41

, and they're trying to create

1:22:43

a specific type of of painting

1:22:45

and it's just not going the way they want . Like

1:22:48

they're coached whether painting

1:22:50

or it could be any other direction . But

1:22:52

some folks are coached to be like , okay

1:22:54

, drop the painting for now and go

1:22:56

do some music . Go make some music . How's

1:23:00

the music gonna inform your painting ? Or

1:23:02

vice versa , being the artist or

1:23:04

the musician , that's like okay , well

1:23:07

, I , I can't write , I can't finish the

1:23:09

song , I can't figure out what the bridge is , and it's like , okay

1:23:11

, well , why don't you go paint for a while ? Or go write

1:23:14

a fictional short story

1:23:16

?

1:23:16

yeah , totally yes . Yeah

1:23:19

, do something else while you're percolating

1:23:21

on this other thing . I

1:23:24

love that . Yeah , I love it .

1:23:27

The other two stages , illumination

1:23:30

. So it's marked by the solution consciously

1:23:32

emerging , fully , formed in one's mind

1:23:34

as a sudden flash of insight . So

1:23:36

I think about the role of insight .

1:23:38

I love that . Yeah , yes , oh

1:23:42

, struck by lightning . Yeah , it's like

1:23:44

, does that Jump out's about a bed

1:23:47

?

1:23:47

yeah , it doesn't always look like that , but there

1:23:49

is this like deeper , like , oh

1:23:51

, things feel like they're starting to like

1:23:53

form

1:23:55

, I'm starting to be able to like

1:23:57

I don't know

1:24:00

, this is my movement , for it , yeah yeah

1:24:02

, yeah , yeah , I like it yeah

1:24:04

, um , I like

1:24:07

it . I

1:24:11

mean , how often , when you're working with people , do you experience ?

1:24:12

people having that like flat lightning bolt of . I do , I do have it and

1:24:15

I do . And I was just gonna say , actually I

1:24:17

think it's so cool because we're

1:24:20

like what we're talking about is helping

1:24:22

me also just remember

1:24:24

the things that I feel like I've been

1:24:26

learning about how

1:24:28

the way you

1:24:30

treat impasse or

1:24:32

relate

1:24:35

to that stage can do

1:24:37

everything for what comes next . Yeah

1:24:40

, right , so like if you literally

1:24:42

think about because we were just talking about how there's

1:24:44

like a germination , what was it called ? What was the

1:24:47

stage called that you were the

1:24:49

incubation , incubation , okay

1:24:51

, so like it's like an egg . I think

1:24:53

about the metaphor of a seed a

1:24:55

lot that was in my paper . Yeah

1:25:02

, it's underground , you can't see

1:25:04

it and you don't know what's going on down there

1:25:06

. But I

1:25:09

could be frustrated

1:25:11

, so frustrated with that fact that

1:25:13

I like then rip up the earth right

1:25:15

and like destroy everything

1:25:17

or I'd never come back to it

1:25:19

. I don't , I don't , I like abandon

1:25:22

it . You know there's so many different ways I could relate

1:25:24

to it . I'm thinking of ways that I used to relate

1:25:26

to this experience . It's like , okay , seed in

1:25:28

the ground , all

1:25:30

destructive , like I , I

1:25:32

don't , I don't want anything

1:25:35

to do with it . But there's another

1:25:37

way to relate to it , which is to say , seed

1:25:39

in the ground . Okay

1:25:41

, like , let , this

1:25:43

is part of this thing and

1:25:45

I want this thing to grow . I'm gonna

1:25:48

keep watering it . I have to

1:25:50

have faith that something's

1:25:52

happening , even if I

1:25:54

don't see the tangible

1:25:57

results of it . And

1:26:00

then

1:26:03

, when it does sprout

1:26:05

because

1:26:08

it will , I think it will . I think

1:26:10

, if you give that the space , the time

1:26:12

and space for something , it might not look the way you thought

1:26:14

it would . Right , there's

1:26:17

a lot to be said for things not going

1:26:19

according to how we planned

1:26:21

them . But

1:26:23

, then that's the inspiration

1:26:25

, it inspiration . It's like , oh , it's fully

1:26:28

formed . There's like it might not , it's not fully

1:26:30

grown yet you have to do a lot of work to

1:26:32

keep like doing it . But like

1:26:34

it's a thing , it's a , it's

1:26:36

a tangible thing

1:26:38

. You know , yeah , and if I , if

1:26:40

I left , if I didn't come back

1:26:42

to it , I wouldn't see

1:26:44

it . If I

1:26:47

had like destroyed it , it

1:26:49

might not happen . So there's like

1:26:52

how you relate to the incubation

1:26:56

stage feels

1:26:58

like it . It um

1:27:00

, kind of lays the groundwork for what comes

1:27:02

after .

1:27:04

Yeah , I mean just

1:27:06

that last part of what you're saying too . It

1:27:08

makes me think like , depending on which choice you

1:27:10

make , what

1:27:12

you end up telling yourself about

1:27:14

your capacity and your capabilities

1:27:17

and what

1:27:19

you believe the creative process

1:27:22

to be around that thing . Yeah

1:27:24

that it . Those are three very

1:27:26

different trajectories . Yeah , tear

1:27:29

it up and like destroy

1:27:31

it right you're . I

1:27:33

would imagine there's probably a shame spiral

1:27:36

. I shouldn't yeah , we should and shouldn't

1:27:38

show up . Yes , we shouldn't run it

1:27:40

. Oh god , now I've really fucked it up

1:27:42

. I don't know what to do now . Now I have to start

1:27:44

all over again . Oh god , I don't have the energy anymore

1:27:46

. Right , right , right , like that self-defeating

1:27:49

, self-limiting yes stuff

1:27:52

.

1:27:52

Yes , if you walk away , okay , yeah

1:27:54

, yeah yeah , yeah , no , sorry , I was just

1:27:56

gonna chime in because I was thinking you made me think of another

1:27:59

, a whole other alternative , which is like to be

1:28:01

like to you during that

1:28:03

incubation phase . You're like your negative

1:28:05

self-talk comes in right and you're

1:28:07

like I'm not doing this right

1:28:10

, this is not good , it's not

1:28:12

working . Um

1:28:14

, and in

1:28:17

that process , if the

1:28:19

seed then comes out of the ground

1:28:21

, you might just , you might uh

1:28:24

downplay it also you might be like oh

1:28:26

, this thing happened , but like

1:28:28

whatever , whatever

1:28:30

you know , but then it's like that's your inspiration , you

1:28:33

keep going with that , like that's the thing you wanted

1:28:35

, but it's like so , um

1:28:37

, it's so crushed by this other

1:28:39

thing . Right , that happens .

1:28:42

I think people do that a lot in their lives when they're

1:28:44

like I wish for this thing , I wish for this thing , I wish

1:28:46

for this thing and they

1:28:48

get so caught up in the trajectory of

1:28:50

the wish , like the process of wishing

1:28:52

, that they don't actually realize that , like

1:28:54

, whatever they wished for actually manifested and

1:28:57

I don't mean in like with hippie to be manifest

1:28:59

, I mean like it happens

1:29:01

but they're so focused on the

1:29:04

trajectory of what the future could look like

1:29:06

they're now already on another dream

1:29:08

.

1:29:09

Yeah , totally .

1:29:10

I mean like yeah , so

1:29:12

so they don't , they can't take in that they

1:29:14

like , oh , no , like , but

1:29:17

you wished so hard for that in here

1:29:19

it's arrived and , like you said , it might

1:29:21

not look exactly

1:29:23

as you thought , right , but

1:29:26

most of the time it doesn't .

1:29:28

Mm-hmm .

1:29:29

But can you sit with what this is

1:29:31

Like ? This is Mm-hmm . You

1:29:33

did this Mm-hmm , Mm-hmm .

1:29:35

Mm-hmm , it's

1:29:37

a big deal .

1:29:39

But no , okay , we're going to look at the far

1:29:41

the distance . Got it , got it , got it . But

1:29:46

like , okay , we're going to look

1:29:48

at the far the distance , got

1:29:50

it , got it , got it .

1:29:52

But like , yeah , but

1:29:55

okay , yes . So I guess I just was going to say that does that does happen

1:29:57

. I do see clients having that experience and I think it's like , and

1:29:59

also , and also , that experience of being

1:30:01

so far future oriented is also

1:30:04

so relatable , like

1:30:14

I , you know , to get stuck there to feel like you have to problem solve out here in order to do the

1:30:16

thing right here is like , but so to you know , I think we need , we need help . We

1:30:18

need help sometimes , like containing

1:30:20

that or having a

1:30:22

process or structure to explore

1:30:26

that and

1:30:28

someone else to like help us

1:30:30

stay on track with what the thing

1:30:32

is .

1:30:32

You know , yeah , um , yeah

1:30:35

, yeah yeah

1:30:39

, the other

1:30:41

piece is like if you get up and walk away

1:30:43

, you

1:30:45

might tell yourself I wasn't capable .

1:30:47

Uh-huh , Exactly , yeah , totally . I

1:30:49

think that happens all the time . It's like oh , I walked

1:30:52

to it , I used to do that too . I

1:30:54

mean , I , I I'm saying this like I've worked

1:30:56

through all of this , I'm still in process

1:30:58

with all of this . I was like oh shit my

1:31:11

head . I was like , oh shit , it's really , it's you know , it's an ongoing practice , um , but it's good , because

1:31:13

I think it's good to remind ourselves of these things . It's like , oh yeah , if I walk away , then I walked

1:31:16

away and I might have a story

1:31:18

about what happened , but I

1:31:20

, you know , we need to give ourselves the chance

1:31:22

to to

1:31:25

have these successes

1:31:27

and and see what comes out of them

1:31:29

.

1:31:30

Yeah , that last

1:31:32

four , the last stage of the four stage

1:31:34

creative process from Wallace

1:31:36

. So the last stage is verification . So that's

1:31:39

involving the conscious deliberation and

1:31:41

working out the details of whatever the solution

1:31:43

is or the creative like product will

1:31:45

be oh cool . Yeah , yeah

1:31:48

. But man , when I got to that

1:31:50

the incubation I was like I gotta

1:31:52

talk to marie about the incubation

1:31:54

uh-huh yeah I

1:31:57

mean we could

1:31:59

go down a whole nother pathway of like

1:32:02

the how like rest

1:32:04

is , like the , the definition

1:32:06

of rest , and we're not definition but the

1:32:08

value of rest , and how it's

1:32:10

devalued like

1:32:13

um . But as

1:32:16

far as the creative process goes , how

1:32:18

, how do you work with folks around

1:32:20

like leaning

1:32:22

in and then leaning out , like what

1:32:25

does that look like ?

1:32:27

Yeah , I mean it happens very

1:32:29

naturally . I

1:32:31

because I I mean

1:32:33

DVT . I think this is why I use DVT

1:32:35

as such a tool in

1:32:37

my work , but just

1:32:40

the way I work in general and what I

1:32:42

really love to do with people is to

1:32:44

have like an emergent process . So

1:32:47

sometimes people are surprised by that . They're like oh , I thought we

1:32:49

were going to come in here and like , get this

1:32:51

, this and this done and like you know , and

1:32:53

then be out on my way , and

1:32:56

it's sort of like well , that's

1:32:58

I . Actually we

1:33:01

can do that and and we

1:33:04

could , you know , make

1:33:06

goals to check

1:33:08

off our list to do . And

1:33:12

I think what can be really interesting

1:33:14

is to hold those goals in mind

1:33:17

and see where

1:33:19

we are right now with

1:33:22

them . And often

1:33:24

I will . I will say almost

1:33:28

every time . I can't think of a time that this hasn't

1:33:30

happened but we'll

1:33:34

address what is

1:33:36

coming up in the moment and

1:33:38

figure something

1:33:40

out about how

1:33:43

that's connected to these

1:33:45

other things and something

1:33:48

about that . I just had to say this is a

1:33:50

mystery to me still , but it's so

1:33:52

and like it's

1:33:55

so engaging and so exciting

1:33:57

to me , so I keep doing it with people

1:33:59

. It's like what's so exciting is like that

1:34:02

giving that space and

1:34:05

making room

1:34:07

for us to explore and

1:34:10

then making those connections can like basically

1:34:12

unlock all this energy to

1:34:15

then make someone

1:34:17

feel like like

1:34:19

I've had people tell me like wow , after our session

1:34:22

, I just like went and did all

1:34:24

the things I needed to do because

1:34:27

I was so energized

1:34:29

by everything we had talked about and

1:34:32

like I , you

1:34:35

know , I just had all these different ideas

1:34:37

like it's what we were talking about , this inspiration that

1:34:39

happens . So they were just like I had all these ideas

1:34:41

that were related to all this stuff and then , like

1:34:44

you know , I didn't stop

1:34:46

writing for an hour or whatever you know . So

1:34:50

I

1:34:52

can't remember now your original question , but

1:34:54

Me neither , because I'm fascinated by this

1:34:56

. It's

1:34:59

, that's how , that's how . Yeah

1:35:02

, I can't remember exactly what you was . That's how . Yeah , I can't remember

1:35:04

exactly what you was . You asked something about how

1:35:07

, how I work , and that's like emerge

1:35:09

with this emergent process of what's coming

1:35:11

up right now , because I actually think it's

1:35:13

so practical . It seems maybe

1:35:16

on the outside from our like logistical

1:35:18

brains that it's not the practical

1:35:20

thing to do , but in my experience

1:35:22

it is usually the

1:35:24

most practical thing for me

1:35:27

to do , but in my experience it is usually the most practical

1:35:29

thing for me to do , because

1:35:31

we're so embedded in the patterns of our lives

1:35:33

, so like in

1:35:35

so many different ways , in so many different

1:35:37

layers , that it's going to show most

1:35:39

people want to avoid the present

1:35:41

moment .

1:35:42

And so you're literally saying like you want to work

1:35:44

on all these things . They're

1:35:46

here , they're , they're here

1:35:48

in the room with us .

1:35:50

yes , exactly they're here

1:35:52

right now . Like what do you want to talk to

1:35:54

them right now ?

1:35:56

right , yeah , yeah , yeah yeah

1:35:58

, and I think that is

1:36:01

the hardest . I

1:36:04

find that the hardest sell

1:36:06

to someone who's not familiar

1:36:08

with this kind of stuff . You're like

1:36:10

it seems like we're just going way left

1:36:12

field and trying this like rando

1:36:15

thing , but you're actually

1:36:17

saying no , like I took everything that you said and

1:36:21

also I want to pull in , like

1:36:23

can I find you ? There

1:36:26

you are . Oh

1:36:35

, look , all those things that

1:36:38

you said , they're kind of like they're here , but like we have to

1:36:40

find it together and it's not going to again .

1:36:41

It's not going to look how you think it's going to look . Yeah , it might surprise you

1:36:43

. There might be things I think there's like there

1:36:50

might be pieces that you forgot about or didn't realize were connected or didn't realize you were

1:36:52

having this feeling about this thing that's impacting the way that you've

1:36:54

been working on it . You know , love

1:36:58

this , yeah

1:37:01

.

1:37:02

What have we not talked about ? About creativity

1:37:04

that you want to make sure we talk about today ?

1:37:08

No , I think we talked about a lot of things that

1:37:10

are really

1:37:12

that I like , I

1:37:16

don't know that I have one , I don't have an agenda . I

1:37:18

really I appreciate all the

1:37:20

things that we have talked about .

1:37:22

I love it If people

1:37:24

want to talk to you about creativity or

1:37:26

impasse or the type of work

1:37:28

that you do , or they want to work with you . Where

1:37:30

can they find ?

1:37:31

you . They can find me

1:37:33

through my website , which is

1:37:35

mariecbroadwaycom

1:37:38

.

1:37:38

Booyah Marie

1:37:40

. Thank you for coming on the Identity

1:37:43

Podcast .

1:37:43

Thank you , Kim , Thanks for having

1:37:45

me . This was so fun to jam with you on

1:37:48

all this stuff . I'm like , oh , just like every

1:37:50

time . We're just like opening doors

1:37:52

looking to see what's in there . We're

1:37:55

so curious . We're like curious little .

1:37:58

I don't know this movement , curious little

1:38:00

creatures . Every

1:38:04

time I get to talk to you , you just make my brain go

1:38:06

All

1:38:10

right everybody , Thanks so much for tuning in

1:38:13

Well , I'll see you

1:38:15

next time , Thank

1:38:21

you

1:38:26

, Thank you

1:38:58

.