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at polestar.com. From

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New York Times Opinion, this is the

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Ezra Klein Show. I've

0:57

watched a lot of presidential campaigns,

1:00

and I can't remember one where

1:02

the contest for who is going

1:04

to be the next Democratic vice

1:06

presidential nominee has played out quite

1:09

so publicly. You've

1:11

watched these Midwestern and Southern

1:13

white male Democratic governors and

1:15

possibilities, cabinet members in the

1:18

case of Pete Buttigieg, fanning

1:20

out across the media to make their case. And

1:23

that's allowed for some voices

1:25

and figures to break through

1:27

who you might not have imagined before. And

1:30

foremost among them is Minnesota Governor

1:32

Tim Walz. I don't

1:35

think anybody else in the party has shot as

1:37

rapidly from somebody who

1:39

fairly few people have heard of. I mean,

1:41

you know, if you follow who's the chair

1:43

of the Democratic Governors Association, you might have

1:45

known him. To somebody that all of a

1:47

sudden is on the shortlist, all of a

1:49

sudden has a loud,

1:51

proud, excited online fan base. And

1:54

not just that, but somebody who

1:56

has changed the entire rest of

1:58

the Democratic Party's messaging. And

2:01

what began it, the core of

2:04

Walt's slingshot to national prominence

2:06

was one interview on Morning Joe. I

2:08

think this is going back to the

2:10

bread and butter, getting away from this

2:12

division. We do not like what has

2:14

happened where we can't even go to

2:16

Thanksgiving dinner with our uncle, because you

2:18

end up in some weird fight that

2:20

is unnecessary. And I think bringing back

2:22

people together, well, it's true, these guys

2:24

are just weird. And it is, you

2:27

know, they're running for He-Man Women Haters

2:29

Club or something. That's what they go

2:31

at. That's not what people are interested in.

2:33

That was the interview you heard around the Democratic

2:35

Party. I remember it hit me on social media.

2:38

I saw that and thought, oh, that really connects.

2:40

And then all of a sudden, it was

2:43

all you heard from Democrats, right? Weird, weird,

2:45

weird. These guys are weird. They're weird and

2:47

creepy. You ever see this guy? Like when

2:49

he's on stage, he like kind of meanders

2:51

over, you know, can't really walk well. And

2:53

he goes over to the flag and he

2:55

like hugs the flag. I love the flag,

2:58

but it's a weird thing he does. Some

3:00

of what he and his running mate

3:02

are saying, well, it's just plain weird.

3:04

J.D. Vance is awfully weird. A

3:07

super weird idea from J.D. Vance.

3:10

They're just weird. I mean, they

3:12

really are. It's weird and

3:14

it's, I don't know what to

3:16

say. It's just banana. It's not

3:18

just a weird style that he

3:20

brings. It's that this leads to

3:23

weird policies. Well, that was a weird comment.

3:25

That definitely is weird. And some of the

3:27

different things and positions they've taken seems

3:30

fairly weird to me. What

3:32

is this role? Why did this connect this way? Part

3:35

of it, I think, is it weird got

3:37

at something Democrats have had trouble walking the

3:39

line on, which is on

3:41

the one hand, there's real threat from Donald Trump and

3:43

the Republicans. And on the

3:46

other hand, to endlessly talking about them in

3:48

these existential terms to make them this sort

3:50

of mythic global right-wing populist bogeyman also

3:53

gives a power to people that maybe they

3:55

don't deserve. Maybe they don't even really hold,

3:57

right? Maybe this is all built a little

3:59

bit on Sam. On the

4:01

other hand, this is a tricky argument to

4:03

make, because it's very

4:05

easy for it to fall into something

4:07

that does bedevil Democrats, which is moving

4:09

from a critique of Republican politicians

4:12

to a critique of the people who vote

4:14

for Republicans, right? You can

4:16

imagine this overstepping and becoming a little

4:18

bit more like Hillary Clinton's deplorables comment.

4:21

But Waltz makes this argument from a very

4:23

different place. He makes it with

4:26

a very different record. He has won repeatedly

4:28

in a congressional district that was quite red,

4:30

a congressional district that heavily favored Donald Trump.

4:33

He is the popular and highly accomplished

4:35

governor of a Midwestern state. He

4:38

comes from himself a very small town, and

4:41

he's very careful about this boundary, you'll hear

4:43

that here, between what he is

4:45

talking about in Republican politicians and

4:47

the way Democrats should be talking to Republicans and

4:50

voters who support Republicans. So

4:52

I've been curious to hear Waltz go a little bit deeper

4:55

on all this, and I invited him on the show. He

4:57

was kind enough to accept. As always,

4:59

my email is reclineshow at nytimes.com. Governor

5:08

Waltz, welcome to the show. Thanks for having me, Ezra. So

5:10

you told my old friend, The Washington Post columnist,

5:13

E.J. Dionne, that you don't win elections to

5:16

bank political capital. You

5:18

win elections to burn the capital to improve lives. Talk

5:20

to me about that theory

5:22

of politics. Yeah, and I think it's a

5:24

Minnesota mantra, too. I think that's, you know, I would be right. I

5:27

would be remiss if I didn't. Those that came

5:29

before Paul Wellstone talked about that a lot. The idea

5:31

of why you're in this is, is

5:34

to collectively try and make sure that you can improve

5:36

folks' lives, that you can give

5:38

them opportunities. And I think

5:40

too often we get into this that there's a

5:42

cautiousness around, I got elected, if I get a

5:45

little too aggressive on certain things, it'll

5:47

make it more difficult to get reelected, which

5:49

the whole point is you got there to,

5:51

whether it was school lunches or paid family

5:53

medical leave, you're there now, why don't you

5:55

get that done now? And I made the case that if we can get

5:57

everything done in one session, then I won't have to do this again. and

6:00

it can move on. And I think

6:02

that attitude inspires people to get going,

6:04

to find solutions and to move, because

6:06

there's a frustration amongst folks

6:08

that you're there, now what are we gonna

6:10

see with it and get it done? So

6:13

not to get reelected, it's to get the work done. If you can

6:15

get it done, fast do it. You all

6:17

passed so much after you got that governing trifecta

6:19

and did so fast. I don't think we can

6:22

cover it all here, but I did wanna try

6:24

to pull together one thread, which is I've heard

6:26

you talk about an ambition to

6:28

make Minnesota the best place to raise a kid. Obviously

6:31

families and support for families is something that

6:34

the G.D. Vance and the Republicans wanna put

6:36

at the center of the election, but

6:38

there's a question of what that nets out to and best place to

6:40

raise a kid, I think is a good way of thinking about it.

6:43

So tell me about that dimension of it.

6:45

What did you pass that

6:47

made Minnesota a better place to raise a

6:50

child? Yeah, when I talk about making sure

6:52

it's the best place to raise a child,

6:54

that means that everybody has healthcare, especially women,

6:56

they've got access to prenatal care. It makes

6:58

sure that affordable housing is at a foundational

7:00

piece. It makes sure that food security is

7:03

at a piece. And then you can start

7:05

moving into the things around children all

7:07

day kindergarten, making sure that daycare

7:09

is affordable and we're getting more

7:12

daycare providers. We passed the most

7:14

generous child tax credit, $1,750 for every child you have

7:16

up until their age 18. Those

7:21

are things that we know during the pandemic,

7:23

the federal government did that and we reduced

7:25

childhood poverty during the pandemic because of those

7:27

accelerated child tax credit. It expired, Minnesota picked

7:30

it up and grew it. And so what

7:32

you end up getting is, is you get

7:34

stability around housing, you get

7:36

stability around healthcare, you get stability

7:38

around food security, and then you

7:40

make sure that parents are given

7:42

those options around childcare. And once

7:44

that starts to happen, you start

7:46

to see things take off. And lo and

7:49

behold, and I mean, this is ideologically, JD

7:52

Vance would vote against all those things, he would, and

7:54

I don't think he would deny that. The

7:56

difference there is, is that this makes it

7:58

so much easier to actually. have children. It's

8:00

super expensive now. It's super hard if you're not

8:03

going to. It really is. Yeah, people aren't

8:05

sitting around in the bar talking about banning animal

8:08

farm. They're sitting in the bar talking about how expensive child

8:10

care is and how are we going to get it? Let's

8:13

come back to the workforce question in a second. But I don't want

8:15

to beat up on J.D. Vance here too much. But

8:18

you mentioned the child tax credit. And one

8:21

of the things that I found very strange

8:23

in the way Vance and some Republicans behind

8:25

him, clearly sort of online Republican world he's

8:27

coming out of, have been

8:29

talking about this. He had some comments where he

8:31

said, look, we

8:34

want to disincentivize bad things. And

8:37

so if you are single and childless,

8:39

you should pay higher taxes. And

8:42

on the one hand, that's one way to

8:44

describe what the child tax credit is. And

8:46

I'm a big fan of the child tax

8:48

credit. And it's also one of

8:51

the worst possible ways I could

8:53

have possibly imagined to sell the child tax

8:55

credit. There is and it's come up in

8:57

some other clips of him. Did he articulate

8:59

that Ezra? Did he articulate that as a

9:02

reason? He articulated this completely

9:04

straightforwardly. He said elsewhere that not having

9:06

kids makes you more deranged and sociopathic.

9:09

There's a sort of

9:11

emergent rhetoric there about

9:13

that's not exactly pro-family. It's

9:16

anti not having a family or

9:18

even not having one yet. Yes.

9:21

It struck me as a very strange shift to make,

9:24

to take something that is extremely in the mainstream of

9:26

political rhetoric, invert it. So you've

9:28

made it a highly polarizing issue. I'm

9:30

curious how it's read to you. The

9:32

word you're looking for is weird, probably.

9:34

Yeah, that is a strange thing. And

9:36

I think you're right. But that's the interesting

9:38

thing behind this guy. I said he

9:40

was created in the, you know, the

9:42

heritage lab. That's the ideology

9:44

of some of these fringe groups behind him, in

9:46

my opinion, that very well might be right. And

9:48

it's buried. It is a bit cynical, is

9:51

a way to put it. But I'll have to tell

9:53

you, this childhood tax credit is really popular, except you're

9:55

right. There are folks that are saying, well, I didn't

9:57

get my tax credit at the, my, you know, cut.

10:00

at the top, these guys got it. You're incentivizing

10:02

these out of wedlock bursts. And look, you didn't

10:04

even put a cap on it, governor. You could

10:06

claim 10 children on this thing.

10:08

That's exactly right, you could. And

10:10

our case on this is you get to

10:12

make your own choices. And again, I'm not

10:14

gonna shy away from our entire tax system

10:16

in Minnesota is rated the

10:18

most fair in the country, which means

10:21

it's progressive. It is a progressive

10:23

tax credit. Does good policy here

10:25

lead to good politics? And I'm thinking

10:27

here specifically of the child tax credit.

10:29

My favorite thing in the

10:31

American Rescue Plan was the heavily expanded child

10:34

tax credit. Democrats set that where it could

10:36

expire after a year. Their thinking

10:38

federally when they did this was that people

10:40

would be so excited about the child tax

10:42

credit, so happy about it, that it would

10:44

build the political momentum to get it continued

10:47

or even made permanent after that year. And

10:49

they're wrong. It expired, Republicans would not renew

10:51

it, at least at that time. And

10:53

I think that's been true for a number of things on the

10:56

Biden agenda, that Democrats are very proud

10:58

of, the inflation reduction act, the infrastructure

11:00

bill that have not led to self-fulfilling

11:02

political benefits, right? They've not created their

11:04

own future constituencies. What do you think

11:06

that is? Some

11:08

of it might be the messaging that they do.

11:10

They're distracting them with crazy stories

11:12

they're telling. And some of it are good. I'll

11:14

accept responsibility. I don't think we do a good

11:17

enough job of telling what we did. Life's complicated.

11:19

People don't know. I think a lot of people

11:21

didn't know they were getting the credit or how

11:23

it was coming from. You know, I hear people

11:25

complain that we had a surplus and we went

11:27

through it. That's because we reduced taxes massively on

11:29

working people. And that's kind of the way it

11:31

worked. The cousin of the tax

11:33

credit in Minnesota is the free breakfast and

11:35

lunch. And what was really

11:37

interesting about that was we

11:40

implemented it, we passed it, we went in this year

11:42

and guess what happened? Tons of people used it. So

11:44

it actually ran that it was gonna need some more

11:46

money into it. The Republicans came right away and said,

11:49

we're gonna be running a deficit in, you know, it's

11:51

like six years out, we're triple A bond rated. So

11:53

it's all, so they look six years out. If this

11:55

program stays, it's gonna be running a deficit. At some

11:57

point in time, we need to cut it. Fundamentally,

12:00

they believe you're giving away free things to people

12:02

who don't do it. And we know all those

12:05

free breakfast and free lunch has massive gains. So

12:07

I would go back to your original question. I

12:10

think the child tax credit, maybe it's a

12:12

little more complex. In Minnesota, we had to

12:14

go out and work really hard because the

12:16

people most targeted because of our progressive tax

12:18

code don't file taxes. If you don't file

12:20

taxes, you don't get the credit. So we

12:22

had to go out door to door, get

12:24

people to sign up, file a tax return

12:26

to get your credit. And there's

12:28

folks that look, they're working, they're busy, they're not as

12:31

engaged. And if you don't put it in

12:33

permanently, where's the constituency to come

12:35

argue? Those families aren't going to be up at state capital

12:38

advocating for expansion of the child tax credit

12:40

unless we're more aggressive and tell the story.

12:43

The Democrats sometimes make their policy too

12:45

complex because I've seen this clip going

12:47

around of you defending why

12:49

you didn't beans test the school

12:51

lunch. It would save money. Why

12:54

are you paying for lunch for the children

12:56

of rich parents? There's always that,

12:58

why am I paying for Bill Gates' kids

13:00

lunch whenever you think about making something? Isn't

13:03

that fascinating that Republicans saying, well, we don't

13:05

need to give tax cuts to the wealthy.

13:07

That's how they argued it around that. You shouldn't be

13:10

giving tax cuts to the wealthy, but the same man,

13:12

they were advocating for an income tax cut on

13:14

the top bracket. So no hypocrisy. No free stuff

13:16

to the wealthy, but definitely huge tax cuts to

13:18

the wealthy. So you

13:20

argued that it should be universal. The universality

13:23

made it simpler. How do

13:25

you think about the trade offs of complexity

13:27

and the means testing that creates complexity and

13:30

the politics of simplicity and

13:32

universality? Yeah, that is a good

13:34

one. And the purpose of that was as a guy who

13:36

supervised the high school lunch room for 20 years. All of

13:39

us who did that had our own accounts because kids would

13:41

run out of money and you would put it in. And

13:43

that lunch room then became a very clear have and have

13:46

nots. And in fact, some schools maybe still do it. You

13:48

had a different colored lunch ticket if you're on free and

13:50

reduced lunch. Free and reduced lunch also meant

13:52

you had to fill out paperwork. And so our point was

13:54

is that there was not going to be a division in

13:56

that lunch room. It was going to be eat. Don't

13:58

worry about it. Come in. don't have to have a

14:00

ticket, you don't have to do that. And what it

14:03

did was it started to break down barriers. And what

14:05

we saw was just very basic things around this. First

14:07

of all, attendance went up. We saw a

14:09

huge usage of this, and we saw classroom behaviors go

14:11

down. Well, no surprise, there are science shows us the

14:13

kids are hungry, there's going to be

14:15

more problems. And so I'm not certain

14:17

that we do think that through. And there's

14:19

always the balance between protecting these programs. They'll

14:22

complain about them. They're too expensive in

14:24

trying to make them as easy and as

14:27

efficient as possible. And we're trying to figure

14:29

better ways to do that. But I do think

14:31

you're right. I think Democrats get complex. We think these

14:33

things through in a way that a

14:35

lot of times makes sense, but it ends up

14:37

then becoming very cumbersome or becomes unoperable. So it's

14:39

a fair critique. And that's why with this one,

14:42

we didn't do that. And you know

14:44

the people who gave me as are the most

14:46

feedback on this was families,

14:48

and it's especially mothers because of the

14:50

unequal distribution of domestic labor is still

14:52

falls heavily upon women. And

14:55

these were women who said, look, we didn't

14:57

qualify before we do now. It's an absolute

14:59

tax cut for us, but it's an absolute

15:01

lifesaver for me that I don't have to

15:03

get up in the morning and either make

15:05

breakfast or send one to school for this.

15:07

So it's a double benefit for us. I

15:09

have less work. My kids eat. So it

15:12

was actually middle class folks who

15:14

were most jazzed about this. I

15:16

will say I am so thrilled whenever my kids

15:18

are in a situation where lunch is provided for

15:20

them. Because for me, I'm busy.

15:22

I get the time with them in the morning and

15:24

the question of whether I'm spending the time I could

15:27

have with them in the morning, making everybody lunch or

15:29

getting to enjoy my children. That's

15:32

a real question in parenting for me. Yes. One

15:35

of the partners is always has to do that more. That's

15:37

what came up in this. And that's how I think we

15:39

get to the middle class. And again, remove

15:41

yourself from the moral idea

15:43

that a kid should have a full belly and in

15:45

a land of plenty, there's enough to go around. We're

15:48

going to have healthier kids with better attendance that provide

15:50

a better workforce at the end of the day so

15:52

you can save money. Again, we know this. If you

15:54

provide preventative care, it's a lot better. You

15:56

know, you can keep somebody from getting diabetes a lot

15:58

cheaper than getting them on there where you have to

16:00

pay for it. And that's the same thing here. Start

16:02

them out healthy, get them there, feed them, get them

16:04

an education. This

16:19

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16:49

name is Thomas Gibbons. I'm a journalist at the New

16:51

York Times. I served in the

16:53

Marine Corps as an infantryman. When it comes to

16:55

reporting on the front line, a lot of the

16:57

same basics are at play. You're looking at the

17:00

map of where you're going. If you're on a

17:02

paved road, a field road, is there a hospital

17:04

nearby? Is your body armor affixed

17:06

with a first aid kit? Does everyone know

17:08

where that first aid kit is? We arrive

17:10

into a military position. I get out

17:12

of the car. I look at my watch. I set

17:14

a timer, no more than an hour. I'm

17:17

listening for drones, jets,

17:19

checking with the team. Is everyone comfortable?

17:21

And if they are, then we proceed.

17:23

Frontline reporting is dangerous, but I think

17:25

nothing is more important than talking to

17:28

the people involved. Hearing their stories and

17:30

being able to connect that with people

17:32

thousands of miles away. Anything that can

17:34

make something like this more personal, I

17:36

think, is well worth the risk. New

17:39

York Times subscribers make it possible for us to

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keep doing this vital coverage. If

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you'd like to subscribe, you can

17:45

do that at nytimes.com/subscribe. So

17:58

you've had a hell of a couple of weeks. And

18:00

I don't think I've ever seen any

18:03

single person, including for that

18:05

matter, president, change an entire

18:07

party's messaging the way

18:09

here, riff on Morning Joe, on the

18:11

weirdness of Trump

18:13

and J.D. Vance and sort of Republicans of their

18:15

ilk did. I mean, now it's all

18:17

that any Democrat says. I mean, I heard

18:20

Joe Manchin calling J.D. Vance weird today. I

18:22

mean, when that messaging has hit Joe Manchin,

18:24

something's happened. So that connected

18:26

in a way, I almost can't remember

18:28

anything connecting, but you've been using that

18:30

word for a while, when a lot

18:32

of other Democrats are using existential, terrifying

18:35

and democratic. I'm not saying you don't believe those

18:37

things, but why for you weird? Yeah,

18:41

all those things are true about an existential

18:44

threat to global peace in my opinion, a

18:46

threat to women's reproductive. I think that, you

18:48

know, very clearly a desire

18:50

to strip constitutional power

18:52

and division, all of those things are

18:54

true. What I see is that that

18:56

kind of stuff is overwhelming for people. It's like other big

18:58

issues like climate change. If you can't tackle it one piece

19:00

at a time, it just seems why should I do anything

19:03

about it? And for me as a teacher, you

19:05

couldn't make your case why people were in that mindset.

19:07

When they're in a fear mindset, it's very difficult for

19:10

them to listen and they kept hearing that. And again,

19:12

our Democrats kept making that. Democracy is on the ballot.

19:14

You have to, yes, we know that's true and we're

19:16

scared to death. It's the Emperor's wearing

19:18

no clothes, is all this story is. The minute

19:21

you said that, the spell broke,

19:23

it dropped down. This guy's weird stories and

19:26

inability to connect like a human being on

19:28

any way. And I made the case, see

19:30

if you seeing laugh. He doesn't laugh unless

19:32

he's laughing at someone. And what happened was

19:34

the minute that spell came down, the minute

19:37

everybody in the crowd realized the Emperor wasn't

19:39

wearing any clothes, we can sweep in and

19:41

say, who's asking to ban

19:43

birth control? Who's asking to ban these books?

19:45

Who's asking to take veterans benefits away? And

19:48

then we come in and say, look, Kamala

19:50

Harris is talking about making sure that you have

19:53

expanded healthcare, making sure there's daycare available, making sure

19:55

that it's easier to get free school lunches. They're

19:57

talking about a national level. That's where that came.

19:59

came from. And weird is it's specifically

20:02

to him. I'm certainly not talking about

20:05

Republicans. I'm not talking about the people who are

20:07

at those rallies. I'm hearing this from my Republican

20:09

friends because the people at those rallies, they're the

20:11

ones that can most benefit from the message we're

20:13

delivering. I looked at him the other night in

20:16

St. Cloud, Minnesota, young women behind him. We're going

20:18

to provide reproductive care for them. I saw

20:20

a group holding Somalis for Trump. We have a

20:23

large Somali population. We're very proud of that. Donald

20:25

Trump has said, we're going to have a Muslim

20:27

ban. And he talked about Congresswoman Omar

20:29

and the Somali community as being so detrimental

20:31

rather than an asset to this. So we're

20:33

going to take care of those people too.

20:36

Look, I get riffed up and stuff and I've

20:38

called him worse things. I don't think

20:40

that works then. And certainly if you attack the

20:42

followers, those are my relatives. Those are my neighbors.

20:44

And whether they vote for me or not, I'm

20:47

still going to deliver free meals. We're still going

20:49

to do these things. He's not going to do

20:51

that. He's not going to do that

20:53

because the people behind him, look, there's somebody wants

20:55

to increase the price insulin. It's simply

20:57

not anybody in those rally crowds. So I think

20:59

what happened is, and I think this is where

21:01

Trump and his people get so excited. What do

21:03

they have if they don't have that fear? What

21:06

do they have if there's not a dystopian society?

21:08

What do they have if only dear leader can

21:10

come in and fix it? If people are saying,

21:12

actually, I'd like to have cheaper daycare. I'd actually

21:14

like them to quit talking about this. And I

21:16

really don't care who somebody's married to because I

21:18

believe the vast majority of people really

21:20

don't want to be in other people's bedrooms. And I

21:23

use the thing of small town. This is where JD

21:25

Vance doesn't get it. You survive best

21:27

by just mind your own damn business. Just stay out

21:29

of people's business. I want to get

21:31

at this distinction you're making between

21:34

Trump or Vance or the leaders

21:36

or the policymakers and the

21:38

crowds because one

21:40

of the most dangerous emotions that

21:42

Democrats sometimes let slip, the sort

21:44

of negative side of, I think,

21:47

the liberal personality can be

21:49

a kind of contempt, a

21:51

kind of smugness. This is why

21:53

Hillary Clinton's comment on deplorables, what was so damaging.

21:55

There is a sense among many people that

21:58

these educated liberals look down on them. they

22:00

think they're retrograde, they think they're stupid. Republicans

22:02

have a lot of negative personality traits too,

22:05

rage, anger, conspiratorial thinking,

22:07

but condescension and smugness could be

22:09

pretty lethal for Democrats. And one

22:12

of the things I have heard some Democrats worry

22:14

about as the sort of whole party has taken

22:16

up weird all at once was

22:19

you have a very calibrated way of

22:21

talking about this, not everybody does, and

22:23

it becoming a thing that it sounds

22:25

like Democrats are saying about all these

22:27

people who support Donald Trump and who

22:29

do like him, all these people who

22:31

feel left behind and left out of

22:33

the Democratic coalition. How do

22:35

you police that boundary? This

22:37

is where I take offense to J.D. Vance and in

22:40

Hillbilly Elegy, those are my people. I come from a

22:42

town of 400, 24 kids in a class, 12

22:46

cousins farming, those types of things, that

22:48

is there, and I know they're

22:50

not that. I know they're not weird, I know

22:53

they're not Donald Trump. The thing is we have

22:55

to get them away from what he's trying to

22:57

sell because that's not who they are. I mentioned

23:00

just picture in your mind Donald Trump coming home

23:02

after a day of work and picking

23:05

up a Frisbee and throwing it and his dog catches it and

23:07

the dog runs over and he gives him a good belly rub

23:09

because he's a good boy. That's what

23:11

I do and that's what those rally goers do.

23:14

That is exactly who they are and

23:16

they're going through the same things all of our

23:18

families are. He's captured some of this because I

23:20

think you're right. You people have forgotten me or

23:22

the entertainment value of whatever he's done and in

23:25

fear is scary. I mean, the world is changing.

23:28

We're seeing conflict in the Middle East. We saw a

23:30

global pandemic which he did nothing to

23:33

fix but seized upon. So yeah, I would

23:35

encourage anybody who's out there talking. I'm very

23:37

specific. Those people at those rallies are not

23:39

weird. That's not the point at all. His

23:41

message to them is, and then I think

23:43

it's kind of breaking that spell again of

23:45

saying, look, he's not offering you anything. And then

23:47

we dang sure better be ready to offer something.

23:50

If we can't offer something that impacts their lives

23:52

like these policies, that's why I say Republicans, they

23:54

may not admit it, they love the

23:56

free school meals and lunch. I guarantee you a

23:58

lot of them. like paid family

24:00

and medical leave. Small employers who

24:02

couldn't afford to compete against a best buy

24:05

and target who offered paid family medical leave,

24:07

now could offer and recruit employees. So now

24:09

they're saying, look, I'm paying a little bit

24:11

into this program, works, my employees are loyal

24:13

to me. And boy, they can

24:15

go home and be with their kids and keep them healthy. It's just,

24:18

we have to show them that there's nothing strange

24:20

about this. You know, they'll try and say this

24:22

ultra liberal, that's where we need to be

24:24

more specific. Oh, do you mean the free school lunches? Is

24:26

that what you, are the roads and bridges we built in

24:28

this town? Is that what you're speaking about? Governor,

24:31

you spent a surplus money on this. Yeah,

24:33

you mean when we eliminated social security tax

24:35

for most of seniors? Is that, that's the

24:37

one that most bothers you? There's never a

24:39

specific, they don't give you a specific on

24:42

what the liberal agenda is. And

24:44

we have to do a better job of saying, this is

24:46

what it is. This is the things that you're getting.

24:49

You ever read Hill Billiology? I did.

24:52

I did, years ago. I read it

24:54

years ago and I've been rereading it this week.

24:57

And I'm gonna say more about this in a future episode,

24:59

but it's a little bit of a shocking

25:01

reread. It feels like

25:03

he's predicting himself now. When you

25:05

read it, I mean, he talks about one of the

25:07

big points in early in the book is he says,

25:09

this is a story about people in a hard situation

25:12

responding to it, and I'm paraphrasing, in

25:14

the worst possible way with anger, with

25:16

resentment, with sort of scapegoating of others

25:18

without sort of personal responsibility for- So

25:20

I took that very personally, that he

25:23

was wrong, like putting us into

25:25

that mix. Yeah, tell me about that.

25:27

And then there's also this thing where Vance is

25:29

separating himself from that in that book. And

25:31

then the strange way in his own political evolution becomes

25:34

more like the thing he

25:37

is describing negatively in the book, his whole politics

25:39

becomes this. Everybody did

25:41

this to us, this sort

25:43

of anger and outsiders, this contempt for

25:45

other people, this sort of

25:47

like, wanna punch you in the face politics. The

25:50

read of this book psychologically changes so much

25:52

from who he was and to who he

25:54

is now. But also how he's talking about

25:56

people is really a liberal

25:58

would never talk about people and the places- he's from like

26:00

that? No, that's why I take

26:02

offense to it whenever you know that's taking offense

26:04

to that that's not my people and then I'm

26:07

making the case that there is something and it's

26:09

not about putting blame look societal

26:11

changes practices in agriculture that

26:13

you know use 40 acres and now

26:15

you know you need 400 acres and

26:17

more mechanization and you're going to see

26:19

a migration of population patterns but you're

26:21

also going to see those that accelerated

26:23

that those that took advantage of that

26:26

those like Donald Trump and

26:28

JD Vance who are telling you we

26:30

need to do school vouchers how are

26:32

you going to get a private school in a town of 400

26:34

that's not where the private school is going to be

26:37

the private school is going to be where it already

26:39

is giving tax breaks to the wealthiest and it undermines

26:41

what's the course the two things that are core small

26:43

communities school and hospital both of those things are going

26:45

to be in so I don't know the irony or

26:47

the masterful design of this it's guys just like him

26:50

and telling you that these people are just angry

26:52

bitter that's not who we are that's

26:55

not who they are but I'll tell you what

26:57

there are concerns economies have

26:59

shifted young people leave those communities

27:01

you see my community felt

27:04

thriving when I was there two grocery stores

27:06

couple bars downtown all that now it's empty

27:08

Main Street's hit that that vision of hillbilly

27:10

algae was true but he doesn't tell you

27:12

the story why and the bitterness the cultural

27:14

bitterness whatever that's just not true they're just

27:17

looking for what are things to rejuvenate us how do

27:19

we get back how do we make this I wouldn't

27:21

trade anything from where I grew up and grew up

27:24

with those kids I'm still friends with them and I

27:26

think about this a town

27:28

that small had services like that and had a

27:30

public school with a government teacher

27:32

that inspired me to be setting

27:34

where I'm at today those those are real

27:36

stories in small towns these guys they talk

27:38

about how evil the public schools are for

27:41

many of us public schools

27:43

were everything that was that was our

27:45

path that's the great American contribution you

27:48

say this not a cultural bitterness but

27:50

there is a cultural frustration with the

27:52

Democrats and one way you see it

27:54

is I mean you come from a

27:56

state with some of the most storied

27:58

liberals in American political history Paul Wellstone

28:00

was a very important influence for me at

28:02

a key moment. He was out in California,

28:04

stumbling for Bill Bradley. My

28:06

brother was working with Bill Bradley. I drove around with Paul

28:08

Wellstone for a whole day. He couldn't have been kinder to

28:10

me. I was a high school wrestler and he just wanted

28:12

to talk to him all day. It was

28:15

one of the things that got me into

28:17

politics, but Hubert Humphrey, others. But

28:19

if you look at the liberals of that Democratic party, their

28:22

coalition was built, that sort of

28:24

new post-New Deal Democrats, on

28:26

a coalition that was poor. Like if you looked

28:28

at where people who didn't go to college

28:30

voted, they voted for Democrats. Over the

28:33

past couple of decades, now Democrats win

28:35

college-educated voters nationally, lose non-college voters. Those

28:37

numbers are particularly stark among white voters.

28:40

What do you make of that? What has happened

28:42

in the sort of relationship between the party and

28:45

the voters who were once its base and now

28:47

feel, even if they would benefit from all the

28:49

policies you're talking about, left

28:51

behind by it and in many cases angry at

28:54

it? Paul Look, I represented Southern

28:56

Minnesota, which was from all across

28:58

Northern Iowa, South Dakota and the West, Wisconsin

29:01

on the east, farm country, most productive farm

29:03

country in the country. Not a lot

29:05

of Democrats over the years. I was the second one.

29:08

And to try and understand how that shift

29:10

has happened, and then the suburbs that were

29:12

solidly red, of course went the other way.

29:14

And I think some of it is the

29:16

alignment of economics. We've seen a migration to

29:19

tech jobs, healthcare jobs in the cities.

29:22

And then the cultural pieces. You have

29:24

firearms start to get into that. You

29:26

have long traditions that felt like they

29:28

were being crushed, but it was functionally

29:32

what was happening and how did these people see

29:34

themselves? And I think for us, one of the

29:36

things, us being, I don't know if I just

29:38

use Democrats, those of us that would like to

29:40

see policies that actually work and less of this,

29:42

what we're in right now, have got

29:44

to figure out and see if we're to some of the

29:47

blame that we haven't made the message clear enough. We haven't

29:49

delivered on those promises that people

29:52

wanted to see. ACA being

29:54

one of those does a lot of great things,

29:56

but people now have kind of forgotten that if

29:58

we take away ACA, you're back to preexisting. conditions.

30:00

And I don't know if we built that into people's

30:02

thinking right now. So when Donald Trump says he's going

30:04

to get rid of the ACA, all right, that sounds

30:06

good. I guarantee you those people at those rallies don't

30:08

want the ACA to go away. So

30:10

look, I don't know the answer Ezra, other than

30:12

the school teacher in me keeps thinking this. Look,

30:14

if I give a test and

30:17

90% of the kids fail, I

30:19

can guarantee you it's because the kids aren't smart.

30:21

There's something wrong with the test or the way

30:23

I'm teaching it. I'm not getting it to them.

30:25

So I keep coming back to this. If they're

30:27

not voting for us, there's not something wrong with

30:29

them. There's something that's not quite clicking of where

30:31

it's at. So don't assume they're just

30:33

not clever enough to understand what you're selling them. Yeah.

30:36

And I wonder because look, I'm a policy guy.

30:38

My background is as a policy reporter. Like the

30:40

way I want American politics to work is

30:42

one long policy argument where if my chart really

30:45

shows that it's going to help more people, I

30:47

win the argument. But I do think that people

30:50

don't vote on policies as much as policy wonks

30:52

would like to believe. That's one. That's right. But

30:54

the other is that we always think about whether

30:56

or not voters like politicians. But my

30:58

experience of voters is they're more

31:00

sensitive to whether they think politicians like

31:03

them. Yeah. And that sense of does

31:05

somebody see you and like you? Yeah.

31:08

That's a heuristic. I think voters use a lot.

31:10

Like if you feel that a politician would like

31:12

you, they're probably going to look out for you.

31:15

If you feel they would look past you, that they

31:17

will look down on you, they're probably not. How

31:20

do you explain Trump and that? You

31:22

think they feel that he sees them, knows them?

31:24

I do. I have. Look, I'm sure

31:26

you have Trump voters in your family. I have Trump voters in

31:28

my family. I do. And I

31:31

think a lot about how unappealing he is to me

31:33

and how appealing he is to people I love.

31:35

Yeah, me too. I spend a lot of time on that. It's what's

31:38

your theory of it? If

31:41

you had to, if you had to describe what

31:43

would make Trump appealing, right? If you had to sort of

31:45

empathically put yourself in that place, describe what it'd be like

31:47

to like Donald Trump. I do think

31:50

he's entertaining to some. I think, you know, that feels

31:52

that he may not the laughing like I want to

31:54

see. I think there is a

31:56

sense of space. If you're a little frustrated that that

31:58

he pokes the bear. on

32:00

other people. He's not afraid to poke the bear.

32:02

It feels like it's empowering. Good, somebody can do

32:04

that. It's not like these are small, petty people

32:06

want to make other people's lives miserable, but there's

32:08

a sense of these standing up to it. And

32:10

look, I think the world is complex. And

32:13

if you don't understand something, there's a tendency

32:15

that you might turn to the unexplainable, the

32:17

conspiracy theories that caught on in things. These

32:19

aren't stupid people. These are smart people. But

32:22

there's a frustration of why aren't things working?

32:24

Why are they so complex? So I don't

32:26

know. I mean, it's just, I'm just theorizing

32:28

on it. But look, that district that I

32:30

represented in 2016, I

32:32

snuck by with a win in there again. I won that district

32:34

six times. There had been one other Democrat since 1890, but

32:37

I won it in 2008 by 32 points. I

32:40

sneak by in 2016. He wins by 17 points

32:44

in that same district. They never see him. They

32:46

knew me. I coached their kids. I

32:48

was there. I delivered in Congress. I was

32:50

a ranking member on the VA committee. I

32:52

was just six, eight

32:54

years before, nearly 70% of

32:57

them voted for me. I didn't do

32:59

any scandal or do anything to lose

33:01

their support, but this guy came in.

33:03

And even though I was

33:05

of them or felt I was of them, that this

33:07

was me, I was truly their representative, they identified with

33:09

him. So I still try and I don't know, I'm

33:12

open for why this is. So

33:14

that meant though, there were Trump-Waltz voters for

33:17

you to win and for him to win that big. So when you talk

33:19

to them, what do they tell you? They like

33:21

me. They trusted me. They said, Tim, I think you're trying to

33:23

do it right. And they told me they

33:25

didn't like the status quo, which is an easy thing

33:27

to do. Like, yeah, we need to change that. Well,

33:30

if we change that, it's a problem. Sometimes it feels

33:32

to me like, this switch

33:34

has been up too long. I'm gonna turn it

33:36

down. Well, that switch keeps your house warm, or

33:38

whatever it might be. And you turn the switch just because

33:41

you wanted to turn the switch. And there was a little

33:43

of that, the same old thing and

33:45

maybe we hadn't delivered the way we had, but those people

33:47

stuck with me. They believed it, but

33:49

they just thought he offered something else. Now, it's

33:52

less and less of that. And it used to be a

33:54

lot of that, as you know, you understand it. A lot

33:57

of split ticket voting. And I ended up being one of

33:59

the last four. districts in 2016

34:01

that Trump won by 15 points or more and

34:04

the Democrat won. Three of them were in Minnesota.

34:06

One was in Pennsylvania,

34:09

not surprising swing states, traditional

34:12

blue states, now more in the red. So

34:15

I don't know what

34:17

it is. I just think my take is, is

34:19

that I think at the very end of this,

34:21

especially now, I think the Democrats way out of

34:23

this was with optimism and a sense

34:26

of grace towards folks. I want to be very

34:28

careful. Like I said, those folks, those rallies, you

34:31

insult them at great peril. Your neighbors

34:33

find the flag. You insult them at

34:35

great peril because you just said it.

34:37

They're my relatives. They truly are. And

34:40

I know them. I

34:42

think that idea of grace in politics is

34:44

interesting. How do you show that?

34:46

Right? I mean, one of the things that feels difficult

34:49

in politics, specifically since Donald

34:51

Trump rose is that,

34:54

and I wrote a whole book about political polarization. It's sort of

34:56

about this dynamic. Is it the more

34:58

different the other side becomes to you, the

35:00

more threatening they become to you, the

35:02

more you begin rationally to act like their enemy,

35:04

the fewer swing voters, there are right. I was

35:06

sort of say like the, the choice between a

35:09

donkey and a horse is less obvious than

35:11

between a horse and an elephant. The

35:14

more Trump and the Democrats

35:17

in reaction to some degree shifted politics

35:19

to a place it felt

35:21

to many people existential. And he does

35:23

this as a matter of strategy, right? You know,

35:26

degrading trust in elections. It's

35:29

all over the system. And then of course, you have

35:31

to then treat him as more of a threat because

35:33

he is actually more of a threat to the system.

35:35

Like once you start trying to overturn elections, you've moved

35:37

into a different place in what you represent in politics,

35:40

but then it feels to support even more against

35:42

them that, you know, and Joe Biden wanted to

35:44

run and turn the temperature down when he talked

35:46

about why he wanted to run again, as opposed

35:48

to just sort of being that one term bridge.

35:50

He sort of implied in this BT

35:52

interview, he, he said it's just more divided than

35:55

I had even imagined. I think

35:57

there is this hope, this fantasy of turning

35:59

the, temperature down. It doesn't feel likely

36:01

in this specific election. But you know, you've been

36:04

around politics a long time and you govern in

36:06

a place that is a winnable state for Republicans.

36:09

What does suggest that grace to people? What does suggest to

36:11

people that even if you may not agree with them, you

36:13

don't hate them? Yeah, I'll take

36:15

this true because this gets, I think, can end up

36:17

very dangerous. I think many of us know where it

36:20

goes. That Southern Minnesota district had 22 counties. There's 87

36:23

in Minnesota, 22 counties. I won them all. In

36:26

my first election, I don't know the exact number in 2018.

36:28

I think I maybe won 28 or 30 counties

36:30

out of the 87. And in the last one,

36:34

I think I won 11 or so. And I think

36:37

you understand the demographics, what happened there, it started to

36:39

collapse back to more urban areas and that you could

36:41

win with sheer volume. My one Minnesota

36:43

theme was on this is, is you might be able

36:45

to win that election, but it's very difficult to govern

36:47

if folks are out there. And I, what I won't

36:49

forgive Donald Trump for is, and we can't fall into

36:52

this because what you're saying is that disdain, contempt

36:54

or whatever. He did that.

36:57

He didn't make us just a Democrat with bad

36:59

ideas. He made me the enemy. And

37:01

once he did that, it became harder to come back.

37:03

And I don't want to be

37:06

overly dramatic, but it was, it's so stuck

37:08

with me. Elie Wiesel talked about if you're

37:10

going to commit some of these atrocities, you've

37:12

got to make somebody the other. You've got

37:14

to make the other. And that's the whole

37:17

thing and shrink their world and make it

37:19

so clear that they are the other. And

37:21

that's what scares me most about what's happened

37:23

here that we're not just Democrats who are,

37:25

have really horrible ideas about social safety nets

37:28

or whatever it might be. We

37:30

don't love this country. And in some cases we're,

37:32

you know, we don't share any of

37:35

their common values. He's been masterful at that because

37:37

that's the whole thing. I think

37:39

at heart, I'm a geographer, not an anthropologist.

37:41

We're very tribal by nature. I think it's still

37:44

much genetic that we will go back to those

37:46

who look like us and sound like us and

37:48

are part of this because otherwise you're competing for

37:50

my food source and we regress back, you know,

37:52

20,000 years and there

37:54

we are. And I think that fin veil

37:56

of society that some of these guys figured

37:58

that out, stripped. that away from

38:00

us. So I think that you cannot make some

38:02

of the other. You cannot, because then you get

38:04

into very close, you see some of this, it

38:07

becomes dehumanizing. You hear it in the language. And

38:09

once you've got another and a dehumanized, you can

38:11

do about every what you want. And of course,

38:13

the world sees that every single day. Let

38:15

me ask you about political geography. One

38:18

reason I think that you're lying on this in

38:20

the way you framed it, right? When in that

38:22

original Morning Joe interview, you sort of talk about

38:24

being from a town of 400, graduating a small

38:26

class, right? This isn't what we're like there. Like

38:29

these guys are weird. They're ruining Thanksgiving. I

38:32

think one reason a lot of Democrats thrilled

38:34

to that is that

38:36

they actually feel liberals, coastal

38:38

liberals, right? I'm a Californian liberal like

38:41

the other, right? There's been a lot of movement in politics

38:43

to make that true, right? When George W. Bush was winning

38:45

in 04, right? Democrats were losing

38:47

the heartland, right? You know, if you're

38:49

in California, you're not in the, you're not in the heartland.

38:52

There's a sense of party the Midwest as

38:54

that's where people are normal. Then they get

38:56

sort of weirder on the coast. They get

38:58

different in the South, real America. And you

39:01

come out, you know, you're a former army

39:03

guy, right? You're a former football coach. You

39:05

got this very, you got real good Midwestern

39:07

dad vibes, I think, to just be blunt about it. And

39:10

so you could kind of say this in a way that

39:12

I think a lot of Democrats would not feel they could.

39:14

And also in a way that they're like, Oh, right, maybe

39:17

we're not the weird ones. But I

39:19

always think this is a very unhealthy dimension of

39:21

our politics, a sense that they're sort of real

39:24

Americans here, not real Americans there, you know,

39:26

beyond the coast. Geographic

39:28

politics, you know, throughout history are

39:30

more combustible because that's always just

39:32

a tricky thing. I'm curious how

39:34

you, how you think about this,

39:36

both from the perspective of what it's allowed you

39:38

to say, maybe that would not have landed

39:40

coming from others. And

39:43

also just what you do about it,

39:45

because I don't think it's a situation that from what

39:47

you're saying a second ago, that you feel is very

39:49

healthy for the country either. No, and

39:52

then I think the Republicans would say I get

39:54

wound up and I used a word I probably

39:56

shouldn't have in a, you know, a little thing

39:58

last night because I'm angry. the president or

40:00

whatever, but if I cross that line, then what do I

40:02

get? I started hearing this in 2006 and

40:05

2008, where people in the cities don't know who we are. We're

40:07

real American. I

40:10

would kind of look and I'm like, what

40:12

are you talking about? And it was a

40:14

concerted effort. And I don't know, coordinated whoever

40:16

these thinkers were. At one time, that

40:19

was the famous thing that the Republicans hired

40:21

linguists and started to beat us on language

40:23

or whatever. I

40:25

never saw it that way. And now it's just something

40:27

like this. You can't go to Minneapolis. You

40:29

can't do this. Well, the fact of the matter is,

40:31

when you look at it, you have more population, you

40:33

have more of these things happening. And there was this

40:35

desire to just make these undesired places. They do it

40:37

to San Francisco and just to be candid. Which

40:40

is where I'm taping from right now. People

40:42

come here, they're like, I thought that was

40:44

going to be a hellscape. Last week was

40:47

my first time in San Francisco. And

40:49

stayed down there. I was doing some

40:51

meetings, woke up, did my

40:54

five mile run through the Presidio to

40:56

the Golden Gate, went back to my hotel,

40:58

was downtown and believing. And I'm like, that

41:00

is the most beautiful city I've ever been

41:02

in. And the temperature and I see the

41:05

Golden Gate or whatever. What they've done that

41:07

look, have there been problems? Yes. Homelessness is

41:09

an issue across the country. But to see

41:11

this, it

41:13

was exotic to me. I'd seen San Francisco on TV, hundreds

41:16

of times and heard about it. And there I

41:19

am driving around and I'm like a kid again.

41:21

I'm like, America is so awesome. San Francisco is

41:23

just the greatest. And that's the way

41:25

people would feel. Go out to the

41:28

boundary waters of Minnesota, go to northern Minnesota

41:30

and look where the mining has happened for

41:32

a hundred years. These were the beauty of

41:34

America and they've demonized these places. They've made

41:36

them feel that way. And when I say

41:38

they, I should maybe say us.

41:40

You know, people like, I could

41:42

give you a name, Oklahoma. And all of

41:45

a sudden you just assume that all of

41:47

Oklahoma is conservative or whatever. Beautiful places, beautiful

41:49

people, tapestry or whatever. My take

41:51

on this is, is that I think we can get

41:53

the politics back to that. I'm hopeful. But

41:56

as my wife says, that's not a plan of

41:58

trying to bring more engagement back. But

42:00

our politics now, especially in

42:02

the House of Representatives where I was

42:04

and gerrymandering, just

42:07

incentivizes the most ridiculous divisions possible. So I'm

42:09

not hopeful in the House of Representatives, but

42:11

I will tell you this, and this

42:13

is true. Governors

42:16

who have to govern even states that are red or blue

42:18

but have areas of each in them are

42:21

much more bipartisan and much

42:23

more collegial. And that for

42:25

me was a breath of fresh air. But

42:27

this is a place I do think where Democrats

42:30

have failed a bunch of the people that they

42:32

were hired to help, so to speak. Which

42:35

is, look, you can't be a firefighter who protects

42:37

San Francisco, as a friend of mine is, and

42:39

live in San Francisco. No way

42:41

or teacher. Yeah, no. A teacher,

42:43

Minneapolis, has gotten real issues

42:45

with high housing prices. There

42:47

is something here where it's a little bit more of an urban

42:50

problem and Democrats do better in urban areas. So there might just

42:52

be, it might not all be causation, but I mean, I'm writing

42:54

a book on this. I'm thinking about this.

42:57

There is a way in which Democrats

42:59

have become, they have

43:01

not made it easy to build in the places

43:03

where they govern. And

43:06

over time, then people look and they say,

43:08

oh, you got these huge homelessness problems. People

43:11

can't afford to live there. People are leaving California

43:13

for Texas. And you could say a lot about

43:15

Texas, but in Austin, in Houston,

43:17

you can build apartments. And that has

43:20

kept those places not perfectly affordable, but

43:22

dramatically more affordable than LA, then San

43:24

Francisco, then Boston. And

43:27

I know you've done a lot of work

43:29

on affordable housing, but I also find Democrats

43:31

typically want to do affordable housing through subsidizing

43:33

rent. In

43:35

Minneapolis, they got rid of single-family zoning. There

43:37

was a suit against it, in part by

43:39

environmental groups. How do you think about this

43:41

politics that's more of a state and local

43:43

politics about what you can build and

43:46

where and what makes things affordable? Yeah,

43:48

this is real. This is real. And

43:50

I think we're getting some compromises on this. There was

43:53

a bill that was opposed by a lot of the

43:55

suburban, the first-ring cities and things for this very reason.

43:57

And we got into this on a broader scale of things.

46:00

of what, look, it is completely true that

46:02

if you have a supply constraint housing market

46:04

and you have a lot of immigration that

46:06

can raise prices, but your problem is you're

46:08

not building enough houses, but it

46:10

did show, and he's given this riff at

46:12

other places before, it did

46:14

show the way when things are scarce, when

46:16

people feel there's not enough for them or for their

46:18

kids, they're gonna close up.

46:21

And I do think that's part of the

46:24

immigration politics we see. And then blame somebody, it's the

46:26

scapegoat thing or whatever. I try and go on this.

46:28

Look, I reject a lot of the false scarcity.

46:30

I'm not Pollyannish, there is a scarcity of

46:32

housing, but it's because of our

46:34

policies in some cases, the ability to get out

46:36

there. The false scarcity piece then has us all

46:39

fighting over the small piece of it. And the

46:41

Republicans do this very well, but they get folks

46:43

that could benefit from these programs advocating for tax

46:45

cuts for the wealthiest. We're still back at trickle

46:47

down economics with absolutely no proof that any of

46:50

it works, but you've got folks looking for it.

46:52

If we're not offering something that's the alternative that

46:54

actually works for them, theirs is

46:56

so much simpler to explain. If

46:59

we didn't have so many people here, if we didn't have

47:01

these immigrants here, not taking into consideration, where

47:03

do you think your protein sources are coming from,

47:05

from Austin, Minnesota? And this becomes a real issue

47:07

where we see communities are

47:10

dealing with this and this demonization,

47:12

especially around immigration. But

47:14

heart of the community is that

47:16

protein processing plant. They want

47:18

to build more affordable housing to have the workers

47:20

who were there who will then spend in the

47:22

community. And you get community members that don't want

47:24

to build that housing because they're afraid it'll track

47:26

the very workers that create the jobs that gets

47:28

the wealth for them. They might own a grocery

47:31

store, that's who's shopping there. It becomes this death

47:33

spiral of an argument around

47:36

immigration, which we've got to have border control.

47:38

You've got to know who's coming in. You've

47:40

got to modernize that. But we have to

47:42

have, especially a state like Minnesota, we're

47:44

aging, we're white. Same thing's

47:46

happening in Japan, it's happening in Finland, it's happening in

47:49

South Korea, that we're going to have to think about

47:51

what does that look like. So resentment

47:53

is a strong one, blame somebody else. They're

47:55

really good at this. But like you said

47:57

with Vance, what's he offering? What is

47:59

his... us

58:00

forward and what are you doing to show the respect? This

58:02

is tricky. These are hard things to talk about, but

58:05

we as a country are going to have to figure

58:07

this out not just for electoral wins, but

58:09

for long-term stability of our society and making

58:11

sure that folks truly can thrive. Tell

58:14

me how Democrats or maybe

58:16

specifically you show respect, right? We can talk

58:18

about policy, right? I think Democrats often want

58:20

to show they want to help. They

58:22

want to show what they're going to do. But how

58:24

do you show respect to people who don't

58:26

feel respected by you? Maybe when those people

58:28

are treating you with disrespect, particularly when your

58:30

side gets excited if you treat them with

58:32

disrespect. How do you build that

58:35

sense of respect in politics? Yeah,

58:37

I think it's making it clear. You have to be

58:39

present. I'd always go when I go into the black

58:41

churches and say, a couple things

58:43

you can always count on taxes, sun rising,

58:45

and white politicians over here to see you

58:48

guys at Ebenezer. First

58:51

of all, being there, being in community, and then making the

58:53

case that these communities don't need

58:55

a white savior. In many cases, they

58:57

need us to move the resources and let the community do

58:59

it themselves. Making sure that in appointments,

59:02

if you're going to appoint in your cabinets when

59:04

you get elected, the housing person usually put a

59:06

black person in there and then call it good.

59:08

No, they want to be in the revenue office.

59:10

They want to be in the education department. These

59:12

are things. You start to show the

59:15

respect that our society is based on this and

59:17

it's there, and you let the communities grow and

59:19

thrive and then figure out ways that in so many

59:21

of these cases, that barrier to generational

59:23

wealth that really moves the needle is the housing

59:25

one you're talking about. And that doesn't

59:27

mean just affordable housing that you don't own. It means

59:30

how do you get the homeownership and

59:32

then the movement of capital to entrepreneurial businesses.

59:35

Those are the things that we've not done a good enough job

59:37

in those communities. When we start to

59:39

see that in Minnesota, we start to move the needle. In

59:42

terms of a policy that people would feel in

59:44

their lives, that they would appreciate Democrats did

59:46

for them, forgetting who is president. If

59:48

a Democrat is president, if you were president in 2025, I

59:50

know you're not running for the top of

59:53

the ticket and there's a governing trifecta. What

59:55

do you think Democrats should pass first? What

59:58

would make the biggest difference for people?