0:03

From New York Times opinion, this is

0:05

The Ezra Klein Show. The

0:24

remarkable thing about the past

0:26

couple of months in politics has

0:28

been watching the Democratic Party act like something we

0:30

have not seen for a long time. A

0:33

political party. A party

0:35

that makes decisions collectively. A

0:37

party that does hard things because it wants to win.

0:40

A party that is more than the

0:42

vehicle for a single, usually man's ambitions.

0:46

But parties are made of people. And in

0:48

this case, the party was in particular made

0:50

of a person. Nancy Pelosi.

0:53

One of the longest serving speakers. The

0:55

first female speaker of the House. It

0:59

sometimes feels like last people left in

1:01

American politics who knows how to wield

1:03

power. And knows why she

1:06

wants to wield power. She's

1:08

in a book, The Art of Power.

1:11

And she came by The Times to talk about

1:13

what she has learned. Why she

1:15

does what she does. And how

1:17

she sees this moment in American politics. Nancy

1:25

Pelosi, welcome to the show. Pleasure to

1:27

be here. So we're talking on the

1:29

day that Vice President Harris named Tim

1:31

Walz as her Vice Presidential pick in

1:33

the campaign. He served with you

1:36

in the House. He is the first former member

1:38

of the House to be on a ticket since

1:40

Al Gore on a Democratic ticket at least. What

1:43

was he like in the House? What can you tell us about him to help

1:45

us get to know him better? It was remarkable in the

1:47

House. He came winning

1:50

a Republican seat. So he was a red to

1:52

blue. But he came as

1:54

the longest serving noncommissioned

1:56

officer in the military ever

1:59

to serve. in the Congress. So

2:01

he was on a path of Veterans

2:04

Affairs and the rest. He

2:06

came as a childhood worked in

2:09

farming as a child. And

2:11

so that the rural America was a big

2:14

priority for him. And

2:16

so when I hear people talking about what a

2:18

liberal is, I'm like, wait

2:20

a minute. This is not

2:22

the same person. He was right down

2:24

the middle. And just as

2:27

going off the elevator, I got a message

2:29

from his classmates. They're having a Zoom event

2:31

for a fundraiser for him, which

2:34

they were happy to invite me to. His

2:36

house classmates? His house classmates.

2:38

He's very popular in the house,

2:41

very popular in the house. Members

2:43

are so excited about him because

2:46

he's a wonderful person, just normal,

2:48

lovely, wonderful guy. But

2:51

the Veterans Affairs issue, that's something

2:53

you're elected to and it's competed

2:55

for. And he won

2:57

their confidence in that regard. But

2:59

let me just say, he called

3:01

me right after this, shall we say, opportunity

3:04

arose. I know how to

3:06

make this case. I know how to differentiate.

3:08

I can get this done. I'm putting

3:10

myself out there. And who'd

3:13

have thunk it? Here he is, governor of

3:15

Minnesota, and he's putting himself out there. And

3:17

then he comes up with weird, which becomes

3:20

viral and the rest.

3:22

And here he is. So

3:25

I have to give him a lot of credit for

3:27

not only being a great

3:29

governor and values-based and visionary and

3:31

all that, but being quite an

3:33

adept politician. Experience

3:36

as a governor is very prized.

3:38

Presidential people talk about executive experience.

3:40

People talk about experience in

3:42

the Senate. Joe Biden was partially on

3:44

the ticket with Obama due to his

3:46

background in the Senate. What do you

3:48

learn in the house that you don't

3:50

learn from being a governor or being

3:52

a senator? Governor is

3:54

a different story. That's an

3:56

administrative management experience that

3:59

is different. and we're very proud that we

4:01

have so many. If you read my book,

4:03

you don't see too much, shall

4:05

we say, patience with

4:07

a senator and a senator and a senator

4:09

and a senator and a senator, because what

4:12

they do, they bring their staff, their staff,

4:14

their staff, and there's such a Senate-centric attitude

4:17

to what will come past the Senate. Well, we're

4:20

a bandwagon, a convoy.

4:24

So I'm glad to see somebody with

4:26

the House experience going into

4:28

the executive branch. You make the

4:30

argument in the book that members of the House

4:32

are more retail-oriented. What do you

4:35

mean by that? Well, I mean that they

4:37

are used. We have to run every two

4:39

years. So we're close. And

4:41

that's as our founders intended, that we would

4:43

be close to the people

4:45

and run each every two years. They

4:48

have run every six years. It's a whole different

4:50

story, not that we don't value them, what they

4:52

bring to it and all that. But

4:56

ours is, shall we say,

4:58

a little more rough and tumble, a

5:00

little more impatience to get things done and

5:03

a little more closeness, whatever

5:05

the word is, to constituents,

5:08

our bosses. We consider

5:10

them our bosses. One of

5:12

the ways Wallace has changed the campaign quickly

5:15

is the injection

5:18

of the word and the idea of weirdness into it. And

5:21

that ended up flavoring how I read

5:23

some of your book, because you have

5:25

a very funny chapter, actually, on Donald

5:28

Trump that is largely about

5:30

him being very weird in conversations with you. So

5:33

what have you thought about, first,

5:35

the bringing of weirdness as an attack

5:37

into the campaign, and two,

5:39

how well does it describe your experience of Trump

5:41

and the Republicans who have followed him? I

5:44

think weird is too complimentary a word for

5:46

them. I mean, weird is

5:48

weird, but wrong

5:50

is even different. It's

5:53

a good word. It's only the path, but

5:56

I think that dangerous

5:58

is probably, but it's not a good word. a

8:00

country that don't seem to be generating

8:02

as many national figures. Well, some of

8:04

ours are Silicon Valley too,

8:07

and the issues Zolofkin wrote, they're

8:09

all kind of one of the

8:11

parts. Those are top Democrat in

8:13

the California delegation and a leader

8:15

in the Energy and Commerce Committee and

8:18

all the tech issues that are there.

8:21

And well, I could name them quite a

8:23

few other people, even more prominent

8:25

than us or anybody you named who came

8:27

out of San

8:29

Francisco. We had Leo

8:31

McCarthy, who was the speaker, Willie Brown, who

8:34

was the speaker, and Dianne

8:36

Feinstein, of course. But so why is

8:38

San Francisco trained so many politicians to

8:40

be so adept at wielding

8:42

both power and media? Well,

8:44

it's all about the why. Why

8:47

are you even into this? It's a

8:49

place that is an intellectual resource, whether

8:51

we're talking about saving

8:53

the planet, whether you're talking about LGBTQ

8:55

rights, whether you're talking about a woman's

8:58

right to choose. You name any subject,

9:00

and there is a bedrock

9:03

of support for

9:05

it. And again, intellectual resource as

9:08

well as strategic thinking about

9:10

how to get things done is

9:12

highly educated in the whole region,

9:15

beautifully diverse in terms of people who

9:17

are there. I mean, my district, we

9:20

have every religion or none, we have

9:23

every political thought or

9:25

whatever, and a lot of

9:27

success, but a lot of

9:29

need, a lot of

9:31

need. So it's, again, a

9:34

challenge to conscience, the

9:37

intellectual resource, and the universities,

9:39

Cal, Stanford, University of San

9:41

Francisco, and all of that,

9:43

as a resource to it. So

9:46

when it comes to the politics, it's

9:48

a network of allegiances.

9:51

It's not easy. I mean, it's competitive,

9:54

and there are loyalties, and

9:56

there are loyalties, and so you have to

9:58

get through all of that. Look

10:01

at Kamala. Kamala, she

10:03

ran against the incumbent. I

10:05

was actually for him because he was for me.

10:08

His family, the Hallinan family, was

10:10

a major, major

10:13

democratic progressive family. Beautiful.

10:16

She ran against him. She won. She

10:19

had courage. She had courage

10:21

to go forth. Then when

10:23

she ran for Attorney General, it was a very

10:25

tough race. It was a

10:27

mass primary, but she figured

10:30

out a way. So when people talk

10:32

about it, I say, you know what? She's

10:34

not only a person of deep faith, which

10:36

I personally admire in her and her

10:38

commitment to public service. Officially,

10:41

she's strong. She knows what she cares about,

10:43

and she fights for it most recently. We

10:45

see what the woman's right to choose and

10:48

other issues. And politically, she's astute,

10:50

but you don't realize it. But when

10:53

you see, she got to be District

10:55

Attorney. She got to be Attorney General, which is

10:57

tough. That was a tough race. Very close. And

10:59

then she got to be Vice

11:01

President. And as soon as there was

11:03

an opportunity, we thought there could be

11:05

an open opportunity if

11:07

people wanted to run, and they could

11:09

have, but she locked it down right

11:12

away. Tell me about how she did that.

11:14

She coalesced the party very rapidly. Yeah, well,

11:16

I think the thought was that

11:18

if this were to happen, but it happened fast,

11:20

we ain't none of us had any idea who

11:22

would do it that Sunday. Oh, well,

11:25

I didn't have any idea. Most people didn't. So

11:27

when he did that and endorsed her, then

11:31

the thought was everybody wanted an open

11:33

process. Let's see the talent. Let's see

11:35

the bench of the Democrats and

11:37

let them compete and see what they can

11:39

attract. But when he endorsed

11:41

her, then it was, are you with

11:43

Kamala or not? And she moved

11:45

quickly. She really moved quickly. And

11:47

again, a sign of her

11:50

adroitness in terms of being

11:52

politically astute. So every

11:54

step of the way, except for her race

11:56

for president, which enabled her to be vice

11:58

president, that was... that success per

12:00

se, but it led to it. So

12:03

it was more the appetite that people

12:05

had to win. My

12:07

whole thing in all of this is our

12:11

goal is to make sure that Donald

12:13

Trump never sets foot in the White

12:15

House because he's beyond

12:17

weird. I'm

12:19

not going into all the adjectives. When

12:21

you make a decision about

12:23

your goal, you have to make every decision

12:25

in favor of reaching that goal.

12:28

But the most important part of

12:31

the decision is the candidate and

12:34

the campaign, the candidate and the

12:36

campaign. And it didn't seem

12:39

as if there was a campaign in

12:42

place and

12:44

it was discouraging to people. So when an

12:46

opportunity presented itself, people grasped it because it

12:49

was, well, I'd like to see an open

12:51

thing. But then when it got

12:53

in, we're running with the ball. We're

12:56

running with the ball. I always say to

12:58

them, I have the three M's, but we have the three

13:00

no's. No wasted time, no

13:03

underutilized resources, and

13:05

no regrets the day after the

13:07

election. So that decision about the

13:10

campaign, or per se, the

13:12

person, was

13:14

the critical thing. And when that

13:16

changed, the people who had been

13:18

discouraged were overwhelmingly, I

13:21

mean, just overwhelming. Watching the pent

13:23

up energy express

13:25

itself has been something. It's beautiful to

13:27

behold. And my members, see the members,

13:29

I call them my members still, but

13:31

the members were so

13:34

down and then they became, not that

13:36

they were losing, thanks to Susan Delbeni,

13:39

our D triple C chair and the

13:41

leadership there, they were in

13:43

good shape if

13:45

Joe Biden lost by five points

13:48

in their district, but not if he lost by

13:50

seven. And so they

13:52

weren't desperate. But when

13:54

this changed, volunteers, small

13:56

donor contributions, just whole different

13:59

thing. Now we have to

14:01

sustain it. There

14:03

was a sort of remarkable feel

14:07

for the timing of different things

14:09

throughout that process. I

14:11

want to quote from your book that caught my eye.

14:13

This is about how you are a speaker.

14:15

And you say that a speaker quote,

14:18

you must demonstrate a plan and you

14:21

must act without hesitation. The

14:23

minute you hesitate, your options are diminished.

14:26

The longer you wait, the more

14:28

your options are diminished. Tell

14:30

me about that principle. Well, the thing is, is that I

14:34

make the comparison of us being a member

14:36

of Congress. You can meet the doctors, study

14:39

it, learn it, hearings, constituent meetings,

14:41

this and this. But sometimes when

14:43

you're the leader or the speaker

14:45

or an executive

14:48

like the president of the United States or

14:51

a governor, you have to act on

14:53

me intuitively. And the minute

14:55

you hesitate, everybody

14:57

starts acting to

14:59

protect their interest, which

15:03

reduces your

15:05

success. Nine out of 10 times

15:07

you'll be right. That's not a

15:09

bad average. Maybe nine out of

15:11

10 times you'll be right. I'm not sure we all have that

15:13

average. Well, you have to know. You have

15:16

to know, they say, trust your gut.

15:18

Well, what's your gut? Unless you know

15:20

what you're talking about. You know the

15:23

appetite of voters and their interests or

15:25

that, that you have listened. You don't

15:27

start listening that day. You might take

15:30

a quick tally

15:33

to make sure everybody knows the

15:35

direction you're going in. But I completely

15:39

subscribe to you act,

15:42

you'll prevail. And they know you're going to act. They

15:44

won't mess with you. I

15:46

mean, I should say it in a nicer way than that. They

15:49

know you're going to act. They might curb

15:51

their enthusiasm until another time. But when people believe

15:54

you're going to act, it changes their strategy.

15:57

I guess. Is that one of the goals? for

16:00

another day and that's always leverage

16:03

too. They have leverage, you have leverage because

16:05

they may want something another day. You

16:08

did something over the past couple of

16:10

weeks month that I

16:12

actually found in a way I don't usually find

16:14

strategic movements sort of remarkable and inexplicable. And I'm

16:16

not gonna ask about anything you did or didn't

16:18

do in private. I wanna be delicate about this.

16:20

But July 8th, Joe Biden

16:23

sent a letter to members of Congress

16:25

and he said, the debate about me running is over. I'm

16:28

running. I was voted for by 14

16:30

million people in the Democratic primary. Are you trying to

16:32

take away their voice? We're done with this.

16:36

Two days later, you went on morning, Joe. So

16:38

Madam Speaker, you just went through the president's record,

16:40

but let me ask you about the current moment.

16:42

Does he have your support to be the head

16:44

of the Democratic ticket? It's up to the president

16:47

to decide if he is going to run. We're

16:50

all encouraging him to make

16:52

that decision because time

16:54

is running short. I

16:57

think overwhelming support of the caucus, it's not

17:00

for me to say, I'm not the head

17:02

of the caucus anymore, but he's

17:06

beloved, he is respected,

17:08

and people want him to make that

17:11

decision. He has made the decision. He

17:14

has said firmly this week, he is going

17:16

to run. Do you want him to run?

17:19

I want him to do whatever he decides to

17:21

do. I've been having House

17:23

Democrats text me all that day

17:25

before. I said, it's over, it's a

17:27

fait accompli. He's quelled this. You

17:30

walked out and reopened the

17:32

space for deliberation. By

17:35

saying something in a way didn't make logical sense, he

17:37

had made his decision. Then

17:41

everybody else picked up your template. We're waiting for him

17:43

to make that decision. Where

17:45

did that come from? Well,

17:48

I wanted to see a campaign that could win because

17:51

I had made a decision that I stayed

17:53

in Congress as if he, what's his name,

17:55

because I think he is a danger to

17:57

our country. It's not like a... unfinished

24:00

business of our

24:02

society and past health insurance

24:05

reform for all Americans that

24:07

is a right and not

24:09

a privilege. I

24:13

was sorry we never could get because the Senate wouldn't

24:15

do it. Public option would have

24:17

saved us money and so we

24:20

couldn't get it but we put provisions in the bill

24:22

that compensated for that so it

24:24

wasn't so bad but it wasn't as good as

24:26

it could be but the reconciliation

24:28

piece I guess they just didn't

24:31

think we would do it. I don't know what they thought but

24:33

we were not not going to pass

24:36

the bill and president

24:38

always stuck with us. I'm not

24:40

saying all these people did but

24:42

the president always, he was

24:44

wondering. There are people in the White House who thought it was time to cut

24:47

bait go for a minibill. Who were they

24:49

thinking? Don't run for

24:52

office yourself. I mean this ain't

24:55

going to happen okay you got that? Before

25:19

you were in Congress you were the state

25:21

chair of the California Democratic Party. Yeah I

25:24

thought I was the queen of the

25:26

world, the biggest party in the country, grassroots

25:28

organizing, owning the ground, what's your message, developing

25:30

the candidates, oh my god it was

25:32

heaven. But you're a party person which not

25:35

everybody is these days. One of the most

25:37

remarkable things to me about

25:39

watching covering the Democratic Party over the past couple

25:41

of months has been watching

25:43

it do something collectively in very

25:47

difficult uncertain circumstances. I was

25:49

sitting with a Republican, a

25:52

significant sort of experienced Republican and I was

25:54

asking why were they so surprised by

25:57

the switch? Why was there so little talk

25:59

of Kamala Harris? for

28:00

Republicans, right? It should be true for

28:02

Republicans that the shifting coalitions

28:04

benefit them over time. It should be true

28:06

for Republicans that they have interests

28:08

that weave in and out. It should be.

28:10

And it has become less true, right? The

28:12

range of motion for Kevin McCarthy. Yes, and

28:14

if you don't believe in governance. That's what

28:16

holds it together for Democrats. And

28:18

you don't believe in science. If

28:21

science tells us we have to do

28:23

this to protect the planet and

28:25

we need these protections, they

28:28

don't want the protections, the element of

28:30

science or the governance that

28:32

goes into doing this. So you're

28:34

dealing, it's very hard to find

28:37

leverage with people who don't have

28:39

really any beliefs or

28:41

any agenda. It's

28:43

hard to negotiate with somebody who wants nothing. And

28:47

so it's respect, it's listening,

28:49

it's building off of

28:51

the information that people have. It's

28:54

not anything coming from the

28:56

top down. It's all bubble up from

28:58

the caucus. And there's one word that

29:01

I attribute to my caucus, which is

29:03

courage. They have the courage to

29:05

go out and make the vote. They believe that

29:07

this is what we need to do. And

29:10

if there's a path that shows that

29:12

this can become law and

29:15

that courage, because I know the other

29:17

side is going to go out and paint the thing like

29:20

it's poo poo and kaka when we think

29:22

it's chocolate ice cream. Bernie

29:24

Sanders or AOC, they

29:26

often argue with where the Democrats end up, but

29:28

they often vote for the bill in the end.

29:31

I mean, Sanders was there on the Affordable Care

29:33

Act and every vote people needed. He wasn't shutting

29:35

the government down like Ted Cruz. Is

29:38

the thing in your view that broke

29:40

the Republican Party's ability in the government

29:42

to act as a coherent

29:44

institution, the fact that they just

29:46

don't believe in or want enough

29:49

from the government? One

29:51

of the things I love is being a legislator. It's

29:53

a really hard

29:55

work. I mean, I'm not gonna say

29:57

that it's a complaint.

29:59

I love it. I mean, I love it. I

30:01

love it. But people

30:04

are working all the time

30:06

developing issues, developing

30:09

policy, whether they start with a

30:11

bill and take it through the process,

30:13

take it home, listen to constituents at

30:15

home, see what the possibilities are on

30:17

the other side of the aisle or

30:19

the other side of the Capitol. So

30:22

it's a triumph when you pass a

30:24

bill. It's a triumph, especially if it's

30:26

going to be signed into law. But

30:28

you have to have goals. You have to

30:30

have a why, come back

30:32

to the why. And you

30:34

have to have respect for other people's views

30:37

and who's going to take the lead on something.

30:40

Some people want to always be in the

30:42

lead, but they don't really produce votes. It's

30:45

like, that's interesting. Okay, see you later.

30:50

But tomorrow, maybe that

30:52

will be another day. But everybody has to

30:54

know tomorrow is another day. You

30:57

told a story I really liked in the book about

30:59

getting your members to vote for

31:01

the Defense Authorization Bill. Oh, yeah.

31:04

That included their appeal of don't ask, don't tell. Do

31:06

you mind telling that here? Well,

31:08

it's the funniest thing because we have

31:10

been working so hard. We

31:13

want to pass an all-inclusive

31:15

hate crimes bill. That

31:17

includes trans. Now, I'm talking about

31:19

15 years ago. We're talking

31:22

about a long time ago. So what's

31:25

a fight to do, fully

31:27

inclusive, hate crimes bill because

31:30

businesses were afraid of bathrooms or something. It

31:32

was awful. And they came to me and

31:34

they said, if you take out trans,

31:38

now this is a long time ago, if you take out

31:40

trans, you can pass this in a minute. I

31:42

said, if we take out trans, we ain't never passing

31:44

it in 100 years because we're

31:47

never bringing it up. We're going to

31:49

do trans and that's the way it is. So

31:51

boom, boom, boom, boom, boom. Matthew

31:53

Shepard's mother comes, helps us campaign among

31:55

the members. Barney Frank tells this personal

31:58

story. It was a beautiful. thing.

32:00

So we finally pass it, even though corporate

32:02

America was saying boys and girls are going

32:04

to be in the same bathroom or something.

32:07

I never quite got the bathroom thing.

32:10

But anyway, so there is time for

32:12

repeal of Don't Ask, Don't Tell. And

32:15

it was hard. That's not all the Democrats or shall

32:17

we say we're as fully in

32:19

board as we would have liked them to

32:21

be. But we did get the number of

32:24

votes for an amendment, for

32:26

amendment to the Defense Authorization

32:28

Bill. And Don't Ask,

32:30

Don't Tell. Thumbs up. We passed the

32:32

bill. Oh my God. Even

32:35

the chair of the committee, the Democratic chair of the

32:37

committee was against it. But we passed

32:39

it. I said to them, this

32:43

is pretty exciting. Today, now this is

32:45

Barney Frank. And as you, everybody

32:48

you can think of who was lefty.

32:51

Everybody, all the left is up. You

32:54

made history today. Yeah, we made history.

32:56

We're appeal don't ask. I said, no,

32:58

you can make it twice. You're

33:00

going to vote for the first time for

33:04

a Defense Authorization Bill. Don't

33:06

ask us to do that. We will never,

33:09

ever do it. I said, you

33:12

like the appeal, don't ask, don't tell. We

33:15

don't have it unless we pass the bill. Well,

33:18

what makes you think you know everything? What

33:20

the Republicans always vote for the Defense Bill.

33:23

Not today. How do you

33:25

know? Because I know because I'm speaker. I

33:28

know there ain't going to vote for this bill. How

33:30

do you know? I said, I can see it in

33:32

their eyes. I know them. I

33:34

know them. They ain't, forgive me, I

33:37

ain't voting for the bill. Are you

33:39

a witch? I might be. I can

33:41

read lips and I can see it

33:44

in their eyes. They ain't voting for

33:46

it. Nine Republicans, nine

33:48

Republicans voted for the bill. That means

33:51

overwhelmingly voted against. Now we had some trouble

33:53

in the Senate, so we had to split

33:55

it up in this way, but we got

33:57

it passed. Thanks to Harry Reid. but

38:00

I was paying my dues to the

38:02

caucus. So I was a dedicated

38:06

committee member. I had no interest in

38:08

running for leadership. Why would I want

38:10

to do that when I could be

38:12

doing appropriations or intelligence or any of

38:14

that? So you get to know

38:16

how a system works

38:19

and what lights whose

38:22

fire and the rest. And as

38:24

I say, you're just always listening. How

38:27

you would learn is you're always listening.

38:29

But also, yeah, you said the word

38:31

before, you have to have a plan.

38:34

This is the plan. Because sometimes people say, oh,

38:36

I'm not going for that, because it ain't going

38:38

nowhere. And you're making me walk

38:40

the plank. And I'm saying, well,

38:42

no, we have to. Again,

38:44

this is a bandwagon. It's not a convoy that

38:47

goes as slow as a slowest ship. We're

38:49

on the move. And we have

38:51

to show our constituents

38:54

action. You know,

38:56

they want to see that we're working,

38:58

they're trying, and what we're doing, and

39:00

what the distinction is, because it takes

39:02

us outside. The outside mobilization is one

39:04

of the biggest forces

39:07

that helped us with the Affordable Care Act, that's

39:10

for sure, to pass and to save. It's

39:12

not about just polling or anything. It's

39:15

about the activism that you create. We

39:17

had 10,000 events to save the Affordable Care

39:19

Act, 10,000 events. It

39:22

wasn't about provisions as a bill. It was

39:24

about, this is what it meant to my

39:26

family. It

39:29

was about the You're

39:53

a real partisan of the house. You quote John

39:56

Dingle, the late, great, I don't remember the house

39:58

saying, the Republicans are the opposition,

40:00

but the Senate is the enemy. If there

40:02

was no Senate, or at least if there

40:04

was no Senate filibuster, if the House was

40:06

what governed America, right? If it was the,

40:08

if we were unicameral, one legislative body, that

40:11

America would be different today. Well,

40:14

I don't know, advocating for that, but

40:16

I do think the compromise that

40:18

our beautiful visionary founders

40:21

had in giving every state

40:23

two votes, that

40:25

was a compromise, a great America. So

40:27

then they decide that it's gonna be

40:29

60 votes. So

40:32

what are you saying, 40% wins? This

40:34

is ridiculous. And this is what

40:36

we have to fight. I mean, immigration,

40:39

what would you choose? Raise

40:42

the minimum wage. All these

40:44

kinds of things, 51 votes like that.

40:49

And people get pressure. Why can't you do what you

40:51

said you're gonna do? Well, we do it in the

40:53

House, but they don't do it in the Senate. Well,

40:55

what's that? Yeah, I mean, a cynicism creeps in, and

40:57

I think understandably so. I mean, Democrats will run this

40:59

year on protecting and

41:02

reinstating through law the protections

41:04

of Roe. But if they

41:06

win, they're not gonna have 60 votes in the Senate, even

41:09

if they do keep the Senate, which

41:11

means that they can't really do it because- They have

41:13

to get rid of the filibuster, the

41:16

rescue package, 51 votes, IRA, 51 votes.

41:21

Yeah, you see, even the chips have, the

41:24

Republicans want the chips out. Business community wants the

41:26

chips out. You saw the excitement for the chips

41:29

out, right? So some

41:32

of the Republicans were saying to me,

41:34

we'd probably get like 35 Republican votes

41:36

because they don't want Biden

41:38

to have any success. So

41:41

remember I said, anti-science,

41:43

anti-governance, anti whoever the Democratic president

41:45

is, they have a trifecta going.

41:47

So they don't have to do

41:50

anything, right? And they don't

41:52

wanna do anything. So I think they were gonna

41:54

give us 35 votes. Some

41:56

of the Democrats thought that we're giving money to

41:58

a corporate America or something like that. so we

42:00

couldn't count on everybody. The

42:02

night before, the ranking

42:05

member of the Science,

42:07

Space and Technology Committee, or that

42:09

was the committee of jurisdiction, makes

42:12

a beautiful presentation about the bill

42:14

and the bipartisanship that helped shape

42:16

the STEM parts of it and

42:18

the education. Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa,

42:20

whoa, whoa. 10

42:23

o'clock, I'm talking to check on the phone.

42:25

And I

42:27

get a thing on my phone that says, McCarthy

42:30

just told him nobody can vote for the bill.

42:32

And the ranking member has to

42:35

argue against the bill, which

42:38

is a shit, they should at least let

42:40

somebody else manage the opposition when this guy

42:42

had just made this beautiful speech and thing.

42:45

So I say to Chuck, oh, we just lost all

42:47

the Republican votes. Where do

42:49

they go to school? I'm calling their university president. I

42:51

said, you know, it's 10 o'clock at night. I

42:54

said, let me just tell my staff, tell

42:57

the Republicans to go

42:59

to hell. We're gonna pass

43:01

the bill without them. That

43:03

was my message. I don't usually use

43:05

found language, but that was ridiculous. The

43:07

chips bill. So I said,

43:10

just tell them we don't need them. We don't need

43:13

them. We don't want them. So

43:17

I didn't have the votes at that moment, but I

43:20

figured one way or another, I had to

43:22

leverage to get them. So we get the

43:24

votes. When we get to 218, something

43:29

like 24 Republicans came on

43:31

board, but not until we

43:33

passed it ourselves. That's

43:36

how bad they are. They wouldn't even vote for the

43:38

chips act. It's

43:41

a bill to make us self-reliant as a

43:43

country for all these products

43:45

that go into everything that we,

43:47

not backup, but my phone, yours, that

43:50

we do. And then one more. I just

43:52

have to tell you this one more, because

43:54

this one just defies

43:56

everything. They

43:58

don't want Robbie Williams. I

44:01

respect that. I come from an Italian Catholic family.

44:05

They think I'm a little too exuberant on the subject, but

44:07

that's their problem. I've had five

44:09

children in six years and seven days. I

44:11

know what I'm talking about here. I'm

44:17

not complaining. It's beautiful for me, but why should

44:19

I say that's what other people should do? Bring

44:23

a bell to the floor. Kathy Manning of North Carolina.

44:27

I'm Congresswoman Kathy Manning. I

44:29

am proud to represent North

44:31

Carolina's sixth congressional district. My

44:34

bill establishes a federal statutory

44:36

right for individuals to access

44:39

and use contraceptives and for

44:41

healthcare professionals to provide them.

44:44

Congress must immediately pass

44:46

this bill to ensure

44:48

people can access their

44:50

birth control without government

44:53

interference. We are not

44:55

willing to play defense on this

44:57

critically important issue. We

44:59

are playing offense. Women

45:03

have a right to

45:05

contraception. Members said

45:07

to me, you're letting them off the hook.

45:10

They're going to look good voting for themselves.

45:12

I'm from Arizona. Eight

45:14

Republicans voted for it. 195

45:16

voted against it. Some

45:20

of them women. Is that

45:23

a country? Is that

45:25

freedom? Does the public

45:28

know how dangerous

45:30

they are? They're against abortion.

45:32

You should love consciousness, right?

45:36

You wrote a book about the art of power. Trump

45:38

wrote a book years ago, one of the

45:40

foundations of his public reputation, The Art of

45:42

the Deal. Still, he

45:44

runs saying, look, I'm a good deal maker.

45:46

All these other politicians, these queer politicians, in

45:49

and out make a good deal. America's

45:51

always getting ripped off. These Republicans can't make a good

45:53

deal in Congress. Like, you need me. You've

45:57

watched Donald Trump working

45:59

on deals. You have made deals with him. You've

46:01

watched deals fall apart with him. What would

46:03

you tell the American people about what

46:06

Trump does and doesn't know about how to

46:08

make a deal? Well, if you're going to make a

46:10

deal, you have to be true to your

46:12

word. You have to be honest. And

46:15

he doesn't have an honest thread

46:18

in his body. I'll tell you, you

46:20

hear him now schmoozing with, what's

46:23

his name, Musk? When

46:25

we did our last bill, he's

46:27

going out as president. We're

46:30

finishing in the lame duck the bill to keep

46:32

government open and the rest of it. If

46:35

you put $1 in the

46:38

bill for electric

46:40

cars, I will

46:42

veto the bill. Wonder. We

46:44

had everybody calling him and saying, what

46:47

is this? You're tying the hands of American

46:49

prosperity. I mean, this is an industry. This

46:51

is a company. He said, nothing.

46:55

We couldn't do anything on electric

46:57

cars because he was so in

47:00

the pocket of the fossil fuel

47:02

industry. So in the

47:04

pocket of it. He would shut

47:07

down government. And we couldn't

47:09

let that happen. We couldn't let that get rid of

47:11

the creep. So I

47:13

don't know what kind of a deal that is. That's

47:16

not a deal. That's not if you do this, I'll do

47:18

that. I

47:20

ain't doing nothing. Some of the

47:22

other negotiations we had, he

47:24

would not face reality. This

47:27

is one that means a lot to me because it's

47:29

feeding the children. We wanted to

47:31

have money for the children's program, school

47:33

programs during the summer when they

47:35

were not in school and they still had to eat

47:37

because that's where they got their food is when they

47:39

went to school. But there

47:41

was no money. There was no money. There

47:44

was just no money. So it was

47:46

a CR. We came right around now. It

47:48

was a CR. A continuing resolution.

47:52

Yeah. Has to

47:54

be absolutely clean. You

47:56

can't have anything in it. I'm

47:59

talking to like. Steph Curry is

48:01

what all these advocates for

48:04

feeding the children. So he comes

48:06

up with, I need

48:08

$30 billion to pay

48:11

the farmers. He had ripped off the farmers

48:13

with his China deal because they

48:15

couldn't buy the products and the Chinese couldn't buy

48:17

the products. So he was going to give them

48:19

money to make up for his China

48:22

stuff. So Clean CR, just for

48:24

people who don't know, just continues funding the government at more

48:26

or less current levels. He says nothing can be in it,

48:28

and now he wants $30 billion added to it. That was

48:31

$30 billion. And he said, oh,

48:34

it's still clean with that in it.

48:37

That's not clean. That's why

48:39

I say in the book either he's stupid or

48:41

he thinks we're stupid. It ain't clean, mister. Now

48:45

you're not getting it. Well, then

48:47

I'm not, you're not getting it. You

48:49

understand, you are not getting it. I

48:52

have to have it, okay? So I

48:54

need $8 billion for the children's school

48:56

program. Oh, it can't do that. It's

48:58

not clean. It's as

49:01

clean as yours. So we got the $8

49:03

billion. But he was

49:05

trying to pass off $30 billion to

49:07

cover his stupid, whatever you want to

49:09

call it, on the China thing. He's

49:13

like, he's the categorical imperative. Whatever he

49:15

says, that's what it is. That's

49:18

not a way to make a deal. What's that?

49:21

Another bill, they came to me and

49:23

said, absolutely no. You

49:25

can't have any money

49:27

for global anything, global health. You

49:29

can't have anything. No

49:32

global, nothing beyond the regular preparation,

49:34

nothing. I've

49:36

told Elton John, Bono, Bill

49:39

Gates, everybody you can think that we

49:42

ain't got no money for any vaccines

49:44

or anything else because the president says

49:46

no, blah, blah, blah. Oh,

49:50

they said we forgot. We

49:52

promised Sudan $700 million

49:54

to be part of the Abraham

49:57

Accords. Promised him $700 million. And

50:00

then there were going to not be a rogue nation, which

50:05

is ridiculous. But nonetheless, this is minutia. I

50:07

have to have it. I promised it. Well,

50:09

you didn't. I have to have the

50:11

money. I have to

50:13

have $4 billion for the

50:16

vaccine program. So we got a $700. We

50:19

got our $4 billion for the vaccine program.

50:21

So that was OK to change the rules

50:23

for them. But they didn't know we were

50:25

not going to do that unless there was

50:28

something in it for our values. I guess

50:30

you could hear this and say, well, maybe

50:33

what Trump does is he comes up with

50:35

a very harsh starting offer. And

50:37

then in the end, in these different stories, he got the thing he

50:40

wanted. He got the money for the farmers. He got the money for

50:42

Sudan. Is he actually,

50:44

in a way, a strong dealmaker? Or is

50:46

your argument here that he could have gotten

50:48

more of what he wanted if he was

50:50

willing to treat it? He just didn't want

50:52

us to get anything. But he

50:56

was not a person of any values. See,

50:58

when you're doing the budget, see, I'm an

51:00

appropriator. That's in my DNA, very.

51:02

At the time, my father was one of the appropriations

51:04

committee when he was in college. So I

51:07

love it. I love every aspect. When they

51:09

made presentations in the rooms, I listened to

51:11

every single word. They're like, come on, it's

51:13

time to go. Everybody else is leaving. I'm

51:15

listening. He was like,

51:18

disgusting. Do you

51:20

know what was holding up? He

51:22

calls it the budget bill. It's appropriation. You

51:25

know what was holding up?

51:27

Money for food, for women, infinite

51:29

children. They didn't want to spend

51:31

that much money because you know it was going

51:33

to add to the national debt. Everybody gave $2

51:35

trillion to the richest people in America. They couldn't

51:37

feed poor women and infinite

51:39

children. So no

51:41

values, no anything.

51:44

So I don't think that he was clever

51:46

in any of it. He didn't think

51:48

ahead. He didn't think ahead,

51:51

or he could have had something better.

51:55

But to throw his considerable

51:57

weight around. Oh,

51:59

I saw one. One the other day it said him

52:02

and he's saying, Kamala is

52:04

trying to find her cover as

52:06

they're spraying him with orange. What

52:10

do you think happens if Donald Trump wins a

52:12

second term? The race is very close. It's very

52:14

close in battleground states. It's possible. You've

52:17

seen it before. You also have a sense of the

52:19

kinds of Republicans who are now in

52:21

Congress, which is different. Trump was

52:24

dealing with a Republican party who was not

52:26

fully bought into him in Congress in 2017. It's

52:30

a very different Republican party now. What

52:33

is possible? What would you predict would be

52:35

true if him and the Republicans win in

52:37

2024 that

52:39

wasn't true then? I can't envision it. I

52:42

cannot envision it. First

52:44

time people thought, well, maybe

52:47

he'll respect the institution or

52:49

the presidency. Little did we

52:51

know he didn't, but we

52:53

thought I might. Okay, let's

52:56

give him the benefit of the doubt. We all want

52:58

our president to succeed, whoever he may

53:00

be. But then we

53:02

saw how vile, how disgusting, how

53:06

crooked, how everything he was.

53:08

So now we have to make sure he doesn't win.

53:11

And anybody said, well, I didn't like Hillary because

53:13

of this or anything. You know what? Kamala

53:17

is the person, he's the

53:19

other one. That's the choice. We

53:22

have to make sure he doesn't win. I

53:24

can't even envision a situation where he would

53:27

win. If he were to win and we

53:29

didn't win the house, imagine

53:31

how horrible it would be. Imagine

53:34

how horrible it would be. I

53:36

can hardly sleep at night as it is, but

53:38

that would be unsleepable,

53:41

unthinkable, impossible

53:44

for our country. We just have to do it

53:46

all. Own the ground.

53:49

Own the ground, it's all over. I'm going to

53:52

measure connects with, you might know more after

53:54

I come back from there. Because until you're on the

53:56

ground in each of the states, you really, and

53:59

I've been. I've been almost every place, but

54:01

I haven't been to Michigan. I'll

54:03

see what that is. Meantime,

54:07

Joe Biden, just

54:09

a remarkable President of the

54:11

United States. We have to make

54:13

sure his legacy, which is our

54:16

legacy. We passed that. A lot of my members had

54:18

to take tough votes for it, so we

54:20

want it to be recognized. But more

54:22

importantly, we want people to avail themselves

54:24

of the goodness of it

54:26

all. And that's that.

54:29

And always our final question, what are three

54:32

books that have influenced you? You'd recommend to the audience.

54:34

Oh, I don't know that influenced

54:36

me. The Bible, of course.

54:39

Books I like, Norman Leary

54:41

used to say, that's interesting, what's next? So

54:44

what book led me to what's next?

54:47

One was one of the few Umberto

54:49

Eco books that I could read with

54:51

great ease called The Island of the

54:54

Day Before. The Island of the

54:56

Day Before is about the

54:58

Age of Wonder, which I love. The

55:00

Age of Wonder, when all these countries

55:02

were competing in

55:04

the world, you could manage your

55:06

latitude by the stars. But longitude,

55:09

you had to have something else. So

55:11

it's about that. And then that took me

55:13

down the path of studying longitude

55:15

and how where

55:18

the first clock came, that could be on

55:20

a boat and all that. So that opened

55:22

doors, what's next? Another one

55:24

is I read over and over

55:26

again, some multi-times,

55:29

some just once, of

55:31

Gabriel Garcia Marquez's books.

55:34

The one I like the best is Love

55:36

in the Time of Cholera. It's

55:39

all about the culture and the

55:41

almost witchcraft of

55:43

the region, but I read all of his books.

55:46

That's one, I'm all of a sudden

55:48

blanking on the author, Age of Wonder, have you ever

55:50

read that? Oh God,

55:52

it's the best book. I

55:54

used to give it to everybody, I'll send it to you. It

55:57

talks about when, oh, when.

58:00

Claire and Mary-Marge Locker. Our Senior Engineer

58:02

is Jeff Geld with additional mixing by

58:04

Amun Sahota. Our Senior Editor is Claire

58:06

Gordon. The show's production team

58:08

also includes Annie Galvin, Michelle Harris, Roland Hu,

58:10

Kristen Lin. We have original

58:12

music by Isaac Jones, Audience Strategy by

58:14

Christina Simuluski and Shannon Busta. The

58:17

Executive Producer of New York Times opinion audio

58:19

is Ayni Rose-Strausser, and special thanks to Sonia

58:21

Herrera.