0:09

Hi there, fault line listeners. This is

0:11

Ryan Haas, one of the writers and

0:13

producers of the series dying for a fight.

0:16

Back in November, we brought you what we thought might

0:19

be the last episode in this series that

0:21

looked at the killing of Sean Keelier. Sean

0:23

was an antifascist who was killed in twenty

0:25

nineteen, and his family and friends believed

0:28

police hated his politics so much

0:30

that they wouldn't solve this murder.

0:33

We're back in your podcast feed because

0:35

we have a major update on the case.

0:37

After nearly two and a half years of

0:39

relentless pressure of John's family,

0:41

friends, and journalists, including this

0:43

podcast. Portland Police finally

0:46

made an arrest in August of twenty

0:48

twenty two. With that arrest,

0:50

new information has come to light. For

0:52

instance, we now know police had video

0:55

of Sean's killing since twenty nineteen.

0:58

For years, Sean's friends and family

1:01

have said this case hasn't been solved because

1:03

the police don't wanna solve it. And

1:05

the new information we have makes it harder

1:07

to understand why making an arrest took

1:09

this long. The timing of

1:12

the arrest is also odd. In

1:14

this episode, we're gonna try to make sense

1:16

of it all.

1:18

A mysterious death happened

1:20

in April twenty twenty two in Lynchburg,

1:22

Virginia. Johnny Cashman's mother

1:24

who lived far away in Maine hadn't heard

1:26

from her son in a few days and started to

1:28

worry, who wasn't like him. She asked

1:31

the police to go to his house for a welfare

1:33

check where they found Johnny on his back

1:35

with pools of blood around him. His

1:37

death was quickly ruled a medical issue

1:39

and the case was closed. But

1:41

the family was suspicious and demanded

1:43

an autopsy. They were denied being

1:45

told to trust the system. But when

1:47

Johnny's ex girlfriend entered his apartment

1:49

a few days after he was cremated. It

1:51

was obvious his death was not a medical

1:53

issue. There was blood everywhere. The

1:56

bathroom looked like a murder scene. A

1:58

generation y podcast has spent

2:00

the past ten years breaking down

2:02

cases like Johnny Cashman's, diving

2:04

deep into the details and combing through

2:06

all the evidence to find out what really

2:08

happened. To hear the story of Johnny

2:10

Cashman and other incredible cases

2:12

like it, listen to the generation y

2:14

podcast on Amazon Music or wherever

2:16

you get your podcasts. When

2:19

visionary leaders capture the imagination

2:22

of a nation,

2:23

We choose to go to the moon and

2:25

just to cede and do the other things, not

2:27

because they are easy, but because they

2:30

are hot. When disciplined communicators,

2:32

speak truth to power. Ituran

2:36

knows that he will have to

2:38

break us in this island or lose

2:40

the war.

2:41

If we can stand up to him, all

2:43

Europe may be free. And the

2:45

life of the world may move forward,

2:48

humanity has been shaped by moments

2:50

in which one person approached a crowd

2:52

was something important to say.

2:55

I'm John Meacham. And this is,

2:57

it was said, season two, a

2:59

creation and production of c thirteen

3:01

originals, a cadence thirteen studio,

3:04

in association with the history

3:06

channel. It was said season

3:08

two. Listen and subscribe for

3:10

free. On the app, or

3:13

wherever you get your podcasts.

3:20

The host for dying for a fight, Sergio

3:22

Almost, is currently in Ukraine doing

3:24

reporting, so I'm joined by one of the

3:26

show's Jonathan Levinson.

3:28

Hi, Jonathan. Hey, Ryan. So we got this

3:30

astounding news in August of twenty

3:32

twenty two with no warning that Portland

3:34

Police had finally apprehended one of

3:36

the men they believe was involved in Shaun

3:39

Kelley's killing. I wanna talk with you in

3:41

a minute about how all of that went But

3:43

before we do that, I thought it might be helpful

3:45

to recap a bit of what law enforcement

3:48

told us as we were reporting this series

3:50

because this new information puts those

3:52

interviews in a pretty fresh flight.

3:54

Yeah. When we were reporting the series, one

3:56

of the biggest questions we tried repeatedly

3:59

to get an answer to was, why

4:01

hadn't police made an arrest when the evidence

4:03

seemed pretty clear? As a reminder,

4:05

SUV though was essentially the murder

4:07

weapon was left behind at the scene.

4:09

That would give police the plates, the

4:12

owner's info, and any fingerprints

4:14

or other identifying flu that might have been

4:16

in the vehicle itself. We also learned

4:18

during our reporting that police had collected

4:20

at least some surveillance footage

4:22

nearby. Antifascist had

4:24

said police had helpful video, and

4:26

we recently learned that police likely

4:28

collected that very early in the investigation.

4:31

which we will talk about a little bit later.

4:34

Overall, it's just a very hefty

4:36

pile of evidence. Right. And so we

4:38

asked all kinds of people in law enforcement

4:40

what the deal was. Here's a clip of

4:42

the then head of Portland's police detectives,

4:44

commander Jeff Bell. here's

4:45

part of the issue. You know, with this case,

4:48

I guarantee you there is

4:50

someone and

4:52

maybe more than someone who who knows

4:54

who did this. they have

4:56

not come forward. And that is,

4:58

unfortunately, we still rely

5:01

on beyond

5:02

just video surveillance, beyond physical

5:04

evidence, beyond what we get out of

5:06

the scene, we still rely on

5:08

on people to tell us what they saw and what

5:10

they heard. And I have to point out here that this is something

5:12

we heard many times as we were asking

5:14

people questions about this case. Police and other

5:16

law enforcement repeatedly said there were aspects

5:18

of this case it just made it more complicated

5:20

than it appeared. And they said they needed more

5:22

witnesses to come forward to make an arrest.

5:25

Here's how the local prosecutor Mike Schmidt

5:27

put it when we asked him what it would take to charge

5:29

someone in a case like Sean's?

5:31

Well,

5:31

the answer, like most law school

5:33

exams is it depends. Right?

5:37

It depends on what other collateral

5:39

evidence we have that could

5:41

help us prove what we need

5:43

to prove in the court. our best

5:45

case scenario is that if somebody has

5:47

information and they

5:49

share that with us, they're willing to put their name

5:51

on it.

5:52

So what's not being said here by law

5:55

enforcement is that antifashes don't

5:57

necessarily trust them or

5:59

believe in the

5:59

prison system. And yet,

6:02

police are asking for that trust.

6:04

Again, here's how Bell put it. I mean, in terms

6:06

of homicide investigations, I want

6:08

folks to trust that we have the best interest

6:10

of the investigation at heart. And what that

6:12

means is we are trying to find answers for

6:14

loved ones, for those who are left behind.

6:16

And there are some key pieces

6:18

of this investigation that

6:20

we're talking about here that make

6:23

it not nearly as simple as it appears.

6:25

This

6:26

idea that it's not nearly as simple

6:29

as it appears is something police repeatedly

6:31

told us. And they told Laura too, when we

6:33

first started in estigating Laura Kallier

6:35

told us she knew who killed Sean. She

6:37

even told us she believed police had

6:39

video evidence. She said

6:41

anti fascist researchers were able

6:43

to use information from that night

6:45

to link the vehicle to two men in twenty

6:47

nineteen. We didn't name anyone

6:49

during the podcast because no one had

6:51

been charged. But just recently

6:54

on August fourth, police arrested

6:56

Christopher Cannae as the alleged driver

6:58

of the car that killed Sean. This

7:00

is roughly what Laura had told us

7:02

had happened, meaning that contrary

7:04

to the police argument of the case not

7:06

being as simple as it seems, Laura's

7:08

information appears to have been right

7:10

all along. That

7:12

arrest has been massive news here in Portland, and it's

7:14

given us some new information even though there's still

7:16

a lot we don't know about this case.

7:18

you

7:18

know, we don't have a lot of details

7:21

into what happened or why that

7:23

arrest happened. But when way

7:26

we can see a window into that is law

7:28

enforcement put out the probable cause

7:30

affidavit, which is basically

7:32

their reasoning and process for

7:34

making this arrest. I don't

7:36

know if you can maybe talk us through a

7:38

little bit of what that document says.

7:40

So the document confirmed a lot

7:42

of our previous reporting and

7:44

what we had been told. We know

7:46

that a car registered to one of

7:48

Christopher Knight's relatives was left at the

7:50

scene, We know that a man who

7:52

had been living in a tent nearby, heard multiple

7:54

gunshots. This is all stuff that we had been told

7:56

earlier. Police confirmed to us that

7:58

they had spoken to Kelly, your

8:00

two friends who were there, that's Switch and

8:02

Lucky, who we heard from in the podcast. And

8:05

they also corroborated a lot of what

8:07

Switch and Lucky told us that that

8:09

the three were walking back to their car when a

8:11

group of other another group of three guys

8:13

verbally accosted them is what the affidavit

8:15

says. It named them in the affidavit

8:18

as Cannae, Scott Duncan, and

8:20

Noah Cottle. Laura had previously

8:22

named Cannae and Duncan to us and

8:24

we had tried to contact them many times

8:26

through many different methods during the podcast,

8:28

but they did not respond. So

8:30

according to Cannae's affidavit, Those

8:33

three got into Cannae's car that

8:35

night. They then allegedly drove

8:37

off, turned around, and

8:39

accelerated back towards Sean,

8:41

Switch, and Lucky. The

8:43

affidavit says that the vehicle drove up

8:45

onto the sidewalk and ran over

8:47

Sean. Jonathan, what is alleged

8:49

to have happened after that? lucky

8:52

who we heard from was armed that

8:54

night. He fired into

8:57

Konik's car to prevent him from backing up

8:59

again over Sean. This is all stuff we'd

9:01

heard. This is all stuff that was confirmed in the affidavit.

9:03

One thing that was not

9:05

necessarily included in

9:07

this probable cause affidavit, but

9:09

was a factor here in this arrest was

9:12

Morgan Kanoki. Listeners may remember, in

9:14

episode eight, we had uncovered

9:16

her as a new witness in this case who

9:18

police had never spoken to.

9:20

Yeah. She was a former

9:22

coworker and friend of Cannae's.

9:24

And in just a really

9:26

bizarre coincidence, she had also attended

9:28

protests in New Sean. She told

9:30

Sergio, the host of the podcast,

9:32

that she suspected McKnight was involved

9:35

from from the night of the murder. But police never

9:37

spoken to her, and we talked to her in twenty

9:39

twenty one. Kinoke told

9:41

us that she saw news reports that

9:43

Sean was killed and saw on TV that

9:45

it looked like Cannae's vehicle

9:47

was involved. At work when she asked

9:49

Christopher Cannipe about it, he told

9:51

her he was at a concert

9:53

near where Sean was killed that night but

9:55

had driven home before the

9:57

killing happened. Cannae also

9:59

told Morgan Kanoki his car was

10:01

stolen and that whoever stole it

10:03

must have driven back to that same

10:05

area as the concert and used it

10:07

in the attack on Sean. Needless

10:10

to say Kenoki didn't buy that story.

10:13

Here's what she told us.

10:15

I was suspicious. simply

10:17

because I knew how hard it would be to steal that vehicle.

10:20

What

10:20

the pure

10:22

likelihood was that he

10:24

was there and

10:25

then wasn't. And then an hour later, his car

10:27

was involved in an instant that might have killed

10:30

my friend. at

10:32

that point, it was very on my guard. It

10:34

just doesn't make sense to me. Canokey

10:37

told us that while she didn't go to the police in

10:39

twenty nineteen, she would talk to

10:41

officers if they reached out to her.

10:43

That episode aired in November

10:45

of twenty twenty one, and it

10:47

wasn't until July of twenty

10:49

twenty two, the police did ask to

10:51

speak to her. Portland Police have

10:53

declined most questions about this case

10:55

saying, you know, it's an ongoing investigation, but

10:57

we know the DA doesn't like to

10:59

rely solely on video. And we heard a lot

11:01

during the show that police wanted more

11:03

witness statements to make an arrest, so

11:05

Kinoke's recounting events is clearly

11:07

that. Yeah. Her story did

11:09

offer that new evidence police said they

11:11

needed. But because of Cannae's

11:13

arrest, we also learned just how much

11:15

evidence they have had for years. and

11:17

it's kind of surprising just how much

11:19

information they seem to have had

11:21

without making an arrest. And

11:23

maybe you can take us through some more

11:25

of what we know from that affidavit

11:27

and some of those additional details about

11:29

the arrest and the timeline around

11:31

how that arrest played out. A big thing we

11:33

now know for sure is that police did

11:35

have video evidence. It

11:37

says there is surveillance video of Christopher

11:39

McKnight, Scott Duncan and a man named Noah

11:41

Cottle together at the nearby Boston of

11:43

a ballroom. There's also video of the actual

11:45

incident. The video shows Knight's

11:47

SUV driving away from

11:49

Kaleer Switch and Lucky, and

11:51

then abruptly stops about half a

11:53

block away, turns around and accelerates

11:55

back towards them. This is

11:57

all on video. Mhmm. It

11:59

shows

11:59

two people carry a body across the street, and

12:02

that matches

12:02

what Switch and Lucky told us that they carried

12:05

Sean to Lucky's car and then drove into

12:07

the hospital. Mhmm.

12:09

The app of David also says that, you know, the

12:11

roads were open in other

12:13

directions. Right? And so that means that

12:15

Cannae could have driven away from the scene any

12:17

direction he wanted to. A quote from the affidavit

12:19

says detective Broughton, that's the detective

12:21

on the case. Yeah. Was unable

12:24

to locate any objective evidence

12:26

that would justify why the SUV

12:28

turned back around after

12:30

driving away from the intersection. Detective

12:33

Broton also was unable to locate

12:35

any objective evidence to justify

12:37

why the SUV drove straight at

12:39

Kalyer after the u-turn. Yeah. So that's

12:41

basically saying in layman's

12:43

terms because It's a little jargony. It's basically

12:45

saying detective Scott Brown

12:47

looks at this video. He sees Cannae

12:49

after they have this

12:51

altercation with Sean switch and

12:53

lucky. He sees Cannae and these

12:55

other guys get in his car and it makes

12:57

no sense why they turn

12:59

around and come back and drive towards them.

13:03

it's almost like that they're laying out

13:05

the the intent and then there's no

13:07

other justification other than doing it intentionally.

13:09

Right. Right. They these guys weren't in the street

13:11

and, like, an accident

13:13

happened, it seems intentional

13:15

according to this video. Right. The

13:17

surveillance video sounds like clear evidence that would

13:19

have pointed police toward Cannae as a

13:21

suspect. but they didn't make an arrest until

13:23

recently. Laura says this is because of the

13:25

bias the Portland Police officers have

13:27

towards Sean and other anti fascists.

13:29

Let's go over the timeline in order of events leading

13:31

up to the arrest because that seems to

13:33

lend some credence to that accusation.

13:36

Police

13:36

interviewed Kynite June twenty eighth

13:38

twenty twenty two. They

13:39

went and interviewed Kynite again. The

13:42

detectives, and he told them the same story

13:44

that his car had stolen The

13:46

affidavit says detectives and presented

13:48

him with information that contradicts his

13:50

story. And we should say it doesn't

13:52

say what that information is. Presumably,

13:54

it's this video or,

13:56

you know, either something

13:58

Kenoki said in the podcast, we're not certain

14:00

there. Right. To which Kenite responded,

14:02

I'd better come clean They say that

14:04

police said he he then admitted to

14:07

quote, being the person who drove the

14:09

car that struck and killed

14:11

Kaleer. Right. and I told the police that he

14:13

was in the car alone and didn't know

14:15

Dunkin' which is bizarre. Right?

14:17

Like we know from our

14:19

reporting, there seemed to be a lot of

14:21

connections between knight and

14:23

Dunkin' they live together at the same address,

14:25

so it it seems bizarre to say you don't

14:27

know these people. Right. And

14:29

maybe he suggests that they didn't tell him the

14:31

extent of the video they have because he's gonna

14:33

change his story again. So then

14:35

over a month later, interview

14:37

with Cannipas on June twenty eight. They arrested

14:39

him on August fourth, and at that point,

14:41

he changed the story again. He

14:43

acknowledged that he was with Cottle and Duncan.

14:45

He told police that he had no idea why he

14:47

turned around. He said that he

14:49

blacked out shortly after pulling away from the

14:51

curb and had no recollection of

14:53

what occurred up until the crash. Yeah.

14:55

And that timeline makes even

14:57

less sense now because we know that poor

14:59

employees had this surveillance video of

15:01

Cannae just days after the killing. We

15:03

found out from other records we've been able

15:05

to obtain since the podcast ended that

15:08

police had officers, Canvas, and

15:10

collect the video within that

15:12

first week. And they also

15:14

gathered fingerprints from the SUV and made

15:16

a report on people associated with the

15:18

vehicle right after the killing. We even

15:20

know that police called McKnight and his uncle who

15:22

owned the SUV and spoke to them in the

15:24

days after Sean was killed. It

15:25

just seems very bizarre that there

15:28

was this drawn out period of

15:30

time between when

15:33

Christopher and I confessed and when he

15:35

was arrested.

15:36

Yeah. COBRA two thousand nineteen is

15:39

when this incident happens. Obviously,

15:41

immediate investigation takes place. It

15:43

seems to go kinda cold. Our

15:45

podcast in the

15:47

end of twenty twenty one comes out, like, September,

15:50

October, November. Right? That's

15:52

when we get this new information about Kanoki. comes

15:54

out to the public. Right. And then, like,

15:56

eight months later, in

15:59

June twenty eighth, they go back

16:01

to Cannae. he

16:02

admits to doing it.

16:05

A month later, they talked to Canoke.

16:07

And then about, like, two

16:09

weeks after that, on August fourth, they make the

16:11

arrest. Right. Like you said, it is a

16:13

very bizarre timeline. You

16:15

know, the big question that I

16:17

think we've been asking ourselves

16:19

is Why after more than two

16:21

years of appearing to do nothing

16:23

in this case? Did Portland

16:25

Police suddenly make NRS? Like,

16:27

what changed in that factor? So

16:29

one thing that may have changed was that the Portland

16:31

Police ran under a lot of pressure after our podcast

16:33

to put out new information about the case.

16:35

We're gonna take a quick break, and then we're

16:37

gonna hear how Kynite's arrest came after

16:39

OPB and other media outlets took the police

16:41

to court to finally be transparent.

16:52

Spectacle is back. You might remember

16:54

me, Mariah Smith, digging into

16:56

racism on the real

16:57

world and tribalism on survivor.

17:00

For our third season, we're

17:02

dissecting a messy obsession

17:05

with True Crime. Why

17:07

do we fall asleep to date

17:09

line? or can't get enough of

17:11

Ted Bundy documentaries. From

17:14

Neon Media and Sony Music

17:16

Entertainment, subscribe to

17:18

Spectacle. true crime. Most

17:21

Americans believe freedom of

17:23

religion is a right.

17:24

Even when your religion is

17:27

a little unconventional. I

17:29

am the mystic mother of the Phoenix

17:31

goddess temple, but what

17:33

happens when your beliefs? Sexuality

17:35

can be sacred. Might be against

17:37

the law. Bam. Bam.

17:39

Please. Witnessed. Mystic

17:42

mother is available now.

17:44

Subscribe drive on Apple podcasts to binge all episodes

17:46

or listen weekly wherever you

17:48

get your podcasts.

17:52

Since

17:52

twenty twenty one, OPB has been

17:54

seeking public records in this case. The

17:56

online news organization, the INTERCEPT, has

17:58

been as well. At one point, the

18:00

city of Portland did release records to

18:03

us as a compromise, but those

18:05

records ended up being around seven hundred

18:07

pages of mostly blacked out

18:09

information. There was essentially

18:11

nothing new about the case in those

18:14

documents. It told us nothing about why

18:16

police were taking so long to make

18:18

an arrest so both media

18:20

outlets appealed to local prosecutors

18:22

to try to force the information

18:24

into the public domain. The

18:26

hope was to get more information on what

18:28

steps the police have taken to solve this

18:30

case and any insights on

18:32

what was stopping them from making

18:34

an arrest. This was all playing

18:36

out behind the scenes while we were making

18:38

the podcast and even

18:40

after we published our last episode. This

18:42

legal back and forth played out for months.

18:44

And then finally, on August

18:46

fifth, the prosecutor reviewing our

18:48

records request was supposed to make a final

18:51

determination in the case. The

18:53

day before that was supposed to happen,

18:55

police then arrested Christopher

18:57

Cannae. that delayed the release of

18:59

the information we had been seeking. And

19:01

in his eventual decision, which

19:03

gave us some records, but kept many

19:05

of them hidden from the public for now.

19:07

The prosecutor looking at the case said,

19:09

if it hadn't been for the arrest, it

19:11

is likely that OPP would have

19:13

won the release. of even more records. Jonathan,

19:16

you recently interviewed Ellen Ocenac,

19:18

an attorney who focuses on

19:20

public records and government transparency.

19:24

She talked about the weirdness around this whole

19:27

timeline and the role the pressure over

19:29

public records probably played here. So

19:31

let's hear some of that interview.

19:33

How familiar are you with the

19:35

OPB's legal fight to get these records?

19:37

My understanding is that the city in this

19:39

case wanted to protect an

19:42

ongoing investigation. That was their

19:44

claim. And OPD's

19:47

position was that the case had been cold

19:49

for many years and

19:51

Oregon public records law,

19:54

records belong to the public, full

19:56

stop. And where

19:58

The release of certain information could

19:59

jeopardize an ongoing criminal

20:02

investigation. The law allows

20:04

some sorts

20:04

of redactions. there's a

20:06

tendency in government, I think, to redact everything,

20:09

and that's not allowed. Right?

20:11

Yeah,

20:11

that's right. It's not allowed. The legislature

20:13

clearly made a determination that

20:16

not all information, even when there

20:18

is an ongoing investigation, should

20:20

be secreted from the public.

20:22

Osunak

20:22

said the decision on OPB's

20:24

appeal to get hundreds of redacted pages

20:27

unsealed was deferred when Cannae was arrested

20:29

on August fourth. That decision was

20:31

expected to come down day, and I asked her

20:33

if she thought OPB's argument was

20:35

likely to win. I thought

20:36

that OPB's arguments were compelling

20:39

in that the city did not

20:42

have any information that

20:44

it was able or willing to provide

20:47

about the investigation that

20:49

had they were claiming been ongoing since twenty nineteen.

20:52

And for that reason, the

20:54

city bears the burden of proving

20:56

that in fact, the information should

20:59

not be released.

21:00

And from my

21:01

review of the filings, it did not appear that the

21:04

city had successfully done

21:06

that.

21:06

Osnack told me that seeing the proverbial

21:09

sausage being made, seeing the unpolished

21:11

details of a file like this, it can be

21:13

kinda ugly. It could be something the city

21:15

wouldn't want published. Maybe there's nuance or

21:17

areas that look kind of bad without explanation

21:19

or context, but that doesn't mean the

21:21

government can hide them from the public.

21:23

It is

21:23

very clear that under the public records law,

21:26

this no government entity

21:29

should ever be claiming an exemption

21:31

to avoid scrutiny or embarrassment.

21:34

And in fact, the

21:36

public records law is designed to

21:38

allow us the public to monitor

21:41

the operations of the

21:43

government and to the extent that

21:45

an investigation appears

21:47

as though it was competent

21:49

or bungled or insufficient,

21:52

that's exactly the kind of interest that

21:54

the public records law is

21:56

designed to

21:57

animate, to allow the public to

21:59

see whether or not the

22:01

government is handling its

22:04

responsibilities, its criminal investigations,

22:06

with diligence and rigor. So

22:09

to the extent that

22:12

a city might

22:14

claim an exemption for the purpose

22:16

of avoiding that kind of embarrassment.

22:19

That's an inappropriate and

22:21

unauthorized use

22:22

of Oregon Prepared Records Law.

22:24

One of the last things I asked Ossenik about

22:26

was the timeline of Cannae's arrest, which

22:28

to us looks pretty suspect.

22:30

Can I have admitted to driving the car in June and they didn't arrest him

22:32

for more than a month? I asked her if there

22:34

could be a reasonable explanation for that. I

22:36

think that's a

22:37

difficult question to answer when you're

22:40

out side of the black box. As

22:42

reporters, I think it's not a

22:44

sufficient explanation from the government to

22:46

say, you'll just have to trust us that there are

22:48

things we can't tell you. On

22:50

the other hand, there are

22:53

certainly complexities

22:56

to any given case, including this

22:58

one, that makes

23:00

it impossible to even make

23:02

a reasonable inference about what

23:06

the the thing that

23:08

they feel is so important to keep

23:10

secret. And in

23:12

response to, you know, your question

23:14

specifically about the timeline, it

23:17

is unusual,

23:20

I would say, to

23:23

obtain a a

23:25

suspect someone who is clearly a target of the investigation

23:27

to obtain their statements

23:29

that even partially incriminate

23:32

them and then wait a

23:34

significant amount of time. It's not unheard

23:36

of, but it's unusual. And

23:39

I think it's important for

23:41

the prosecution at some point

23:43

to explain that delay. In

23:45

your

23:45

experience, what role do these types of, you

23:48

know, public records efforts by journalists

23:50

and attorneys play in forcing the government

23:52

to act or to play by the

23:55

rules. the

23:56

public records law and folks who

23:58

make requests for the records that belong to

24:00

the public, undoubtedly

24:03

the

24:04

place significant pressure

24:07

on criminal investigations

24:09

in particular. And I think case

24:12

is an own example of that because you

24:14

had two separate media

24:18

organizations who were intensely

24:20

interested in the case recognized

24:22

that the public was very interested in

24:24

this case, understood the national

24:27

impact of the case, and

24:30

as it remained unresolved

24:33

for so many years,

24:35

I think that the

24:39

insistence of both

24:41

OPD and the other

24:43

requester that they would not abandon

24:45

those these requests and that they

24:47

they would heal them that they

24:49

would file lawsuits. It

24:52

undoubtedly placed pressure on the investigation.

24:54

I think a recognition that

24:58

records related to this case were

25:00

very likely to be ordered

25:02

released in some legal

25:04

proceeding. clearly affected the

25:06

timeline. You know, obviously, I'm coming from

25:08

the perspective that transparency in

25:11

government affairs is

25:14

beneficial, beneficial not

25:16

only because the records and

25:18

the information belong to us

25:20

is the public, but also because being

25:23

transparent about those operations

25:25

increases trust. And that's not just

25:27

my opinion. That's the opinion of the

25:29

Oregon Supreme Court that

25:31

said, that access to

25:33

information about police

25:35

and their operations

25:38

is incredibly important

25:40

to increasing trust in law

25:43

enforcement generally. And

25:45

so when you have

25:48

an investigation into

25:51

a very high profile

25:54

crime, a murder. And

25:56

it remains unresolved. where

25:59

there appears to be a lot of

26:01

evidence that was

26:04

acquired at the time of

26:06

the crime it becomes

26:08

exponentially more important for

26:10

the investigating agency

26:14

to disclose the maximum amount

26:16

of information possible? I

26:17

was I mean, my last question was, you

26:19

know, we've asked you a whole bunch of questions based

26:22

on how we read all of this and the things

26:24

that jumped out to us, you have a pretty

26:26

unique perspective. What jumps

26:28

out to

26:29

you? I think

26:32

what

26:33

jumps out to

26:36

me is

26:38

the dates at

26:41

which the city was

26:43

aware that an independent

26:46

decision maker might order the

26:48

disclosure of the records occurred

26:52

so close in time to

26:54

the arrest in this case. And

26:56

I think it's a fair

26:59

inference that the desire

27:01

for transparency the

27:03

way in which

27:05

OPD and

27:07

the

27:07

INTERCEPT pursued those records made

27:11

action in this case much

27:13

more urgent.

27:18

Dying

27:18

for a fight is a coproduct

27:20

in between something else and 0PB

27:22

This episode was reported and produced

27:24

by Grant Irving, Jonathan

27:26

Levinson, and me, Ryan Hass.

27:29

Our editors are Anna Griffin and

27:31

Lizzie Jacobs. Our theme

27:33

is by deli girls, additional

27:35

music by Nolan Schneider and

27:37

Pete GK. Executive producers

27:39

for dying for a fight are Lizzie Jacobs,

27:41

Tom Kone and Anna

27:44

Griffin. Thanks also to Steve Ackerman,

27:46

Jen Mystery, and

27:48

EK egg butola. And

27:50

one last message, Oregon public

27:53

broadcasting's critical reporting on

27:55

protests and movements in the

27:57

northwest are made possible by the support of our members.

27:59

Do your part to help continue this

28:02

vital coverage and analysis become

28:04

a sustaining member of OPB with

28:06

an ongoing monthly contribution. You

28:09

can join us now at

28:11

opb dot org slash

28:13

pod. and thank

28:18

you.