0:04

Greetings listeners and welcome

0:06

to to episode 301 of the Game

0:08

of Roundtable. I'm I'm tabletop

0:11

game designer Dirk joined joined

0:13

today by my co -host

0:15

digital game designer David Heron, and

0:17

returning guest Justin to talk talk

0:19

about his company, Stone Blade

0:21

Entertainment and their game Sulforge Fusion. Before

0:23

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1:00

Now, on the show. show. Justin,

1:03

it's great to have you on the show again. you on the

1:05

show is my absolute pleasure to be

1:07

back. pleasure to be it's been more years

1:09

than I want want to admit I get older and

1:12

get older and older. happened in lot

1:14

has happened in that time, Justin. a

1:16

You been doing a ton of stuff.

1:18

So to us up to speed about

1:20

all the things you've been doing

1:22

in the game design world. Yeah,

1:24

I'm trying to remember exactly how many years

1:26

it's been, because it's been, has been because it's a

1:28

lot of things. of things. It's It's I'm as I'm

1:30

in it, I don't feel like. a lot It's

1:32

a lot because I'm just in it.

1:34

and I kind of, every time I zoom back

1:36

and I'm like, oh wow, yeah, cool. Did that

1:39

too? that too? that too? too? Did that too? Did

1:41

So I'll just kind of work backwards

1:43

from today and maybe you can stop

1:45

me when it gets boring gets heard this

1:47

before. heard this before. So the thing that's thing that's been

1:49

most exciting most recently is

1:51

the launch of of soul forge which

1:53

for anybody watching the video,

1:55

I've got as my background here.

1:57

I've got is my The value of of

2:00

a game back to life. Now, just to

2:02

give the history of Solfor, because I'm pretty

2:04

sure I talked about Solfor's last time, I

2:07

was on here, this is the game I

2:09

collaborated on with Richard Garfield for the first

2:11

time back in 2011. And this was like

2:13

the dream come true project for me, you

2:15

know, the guy that created Magic Gathering, the

2:17

game that dictated the course of my life,

2:20

changed everything about my entire existence. Now we

2:22

have to work together and collaborate and was

2:24

the first version of a TCG designed natively

2:26

for mobile and digital, right? We had cards

2:28

that leveled up as they played. We had,

2:30

you know, a screen that only had five

2:33

cards in hand, five liens of combat. It

2:35

was a really fun combination between what I'm

2:37

known for as kind of deck building games

2:39

where you're building your deck as you go

2:41

and kind of the TCT model. Well,

2:44

we've launched a crowdfunding, we launched that game,

2:46

we ran it for several years, but eventually

2:48

we had to shut it down. And I

2:50

have always wanted to find a way to

2:52

bring it back. And Richard and I were

2:54

able to find a way to do that.

2:56

And actually, Richard gave me the spark when

2:58

he created a game called Key Forge. Now,

3:00

why he named another game. Also with the

3:02

forge logo, I don't know, that's not on

3:05

me. But the idea that you could make

3:07

an algorithmically digitally printed set of cards was

3:09

really cool to me, right? Because again, it's

3:11

a pro player, right? I started playing professionally

3:13

back in, well, again, now we're talking about

3:15

getting old dating ourselves, right? I won the

3:17

US National Championships in 97. Now, when I

3:19

did that, this is the early days of

3:21

the internet, I brought a homebrew deck. I

3:23

didn't know anything about a medi game. I

3:25

didn't know anything about all other people were

3:27

playing. I just brought my homebrew deck and

3:29

brought it into the game and was able

3:32

to win. That never happens anymore. Like, I

3:34

mean, it is, like, the environment is figured

3:36

out within a few days before hand, and

3:38

was able to win. That never happens anymore,

3:40

right? Like, I mean, And the idea that

3:42

you could make one-of-a-kind decks that would solve

3:44

that problem, but force you to play with

3:46

the deck that you had, and if Doctor

3:48

Strategy, what you had, was fascinating to me.

3:50

And so I asked them a million questions

3:52

about Keyforch, and I realized that wasn't quite

3:54

the vision that I wanted to be because

3:56

I still wanted some ability to customize. I

3:59

still wanted some leveraging of what the technology

4:01

could do for digitally printed cards, right? Because

4:03

Key Forge used the tech of having a,

4:05

you know, your normal set of TCG cards

4:07

typically, like the set one was like 300

4:09

something cards, and it would just algorithmally build

4:11

you a deck, but it wouldn't do anything

4:13

fancy to the cards. And I was like,

4:15

well, okay, we can do wait more than

4:17

that. And so a full. And so our

4:19

first step of our release had over 20,000

4:21

unique possible cards and more deck permutations than

4:23

Adams in the universe. And so that's a

4:26

fun, you know, marketing slogan, but it's also

4:28

just a really great way that means every

4:30

single pack you open, that means every single

4:32

pack you open, you know, every single pack

4:34

you open, you know, every single pack you

4:36

open, you know, every single pack you open,

4:38

you know, every single pack you open, you

4:40

know, Now, I've realized over the years, this

4:42

is something that the age gives you perspective,

4:44

is that I seem to be a glutton

4:46

for punishment. I'm never willing to just kind

4:48

of make something easy. So evolving that technology

4:50

and that digital printing technology wasn't enough. We

4:53

also made sure that every deck came to

4:55

QR code that you could scan it through

4:57

online account, and we built a digital game

4:59

that plays one to one with your collection.

5:01

So unlike games like Magic Arena, where you

5:03

have to buy your collection separately and then

5:05

buy another one on table, tabletop, you could

5:07

have one collection scanned it in to your

5:09

digital account, you could also buy things natively

5:11

digital, and next year we'll have the ability,

5:13

if you want to print your digitally purchased

5:15

stuff and print on demand in order, you'll

5:17

be able to have that too. layer on

5:20

top of that, I wanted people to be

5:22

able to also trade things digitally the same

5:24

way they could trade things physically. And so

5:26

we added in, we connected it to the

5:28

Solana blockchain to allow you if you want

5:30

to, totally often, I know people have mixed

5:32

feelings about way of three in the tabletop

5:34

space and the gaming space, but you can

5:36

choose to turn your decks into NFTs and

5:38

trade them digitally exactly as you would hand

5:40

a physical deck to somebody. And so we

5:42

built that whole thing, we just launched it

5:45

very recently, physical version released in October 2022,

5:47

the digital version released for free, anybody can

5:49

play it if they want on steam, and

5:51

we did the first version in April, and

5:53

then we just launched that trading functionality in

5:55

September, so just a month ago from where

5:57

we're talking. So that has been. a massive

5:59

project taking mountains of effort and teams and

6:01

tons of and a great community and so

6:03

that that is like the big big meaty

6:05

thing that has has taken a lot of

6:07

space. That's just one project I have a

6:09

lot of other talk about but I'll pause

6:12

there since I've been rambling for a while.

6:14

Well, no, pause there, not because of rambling,

6:16

but because, boy, there's a lot of meat

6:18

on the bone, just in talking about Soul

6:20

Forge Fusion. Start with sort of the last

6:22

thing you talked about. So purchasing cards, trading,

6:24

blockchain, talk more about that. How do you

6:26

make that work? Yeah, so the way that

6:28

we built Sall Ford Fusion was always like,

6:30

we wanted to make it take the best.

6:32

And I have been, I have been biting

6:34

at this Apple for many, many years. One

6:36

of our advisors on the project is Jordan

6:39

Weisman, creator of Shadow Run, creator of Shadow

6:41

Run, creator of Shadow Run, creator of Shadow

6:43

Run, creator of Shadow Run, creator of Shadow

6:45

Run, creator of Shadow Run, the project is

6:47

Jordan Wisman, creator of Shadow Run, creator of

6:49

Shadow Run, it's not where it's not just

6:51

like a gimmick, like a gimmick, like a

6:53

gimmick, it's not just like, it's not just

6:55

like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like,

6:57

like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like,

6:59

like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like,

7:01

like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like,

7:03

like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like,

7:06

like, like, like, like And so from the

7:08

beginning I wanted it to be like, look,

7:10

I have a physical deck, I own a

7:12

physical deck, if I want to behave without

7:14

paying attention to the digital side, I can

7:16

totally do that. But I want the digital

7:18

side to be an enhancement, right? The problems

7:20

of the physical game space, especially with collectible

7:22

games, I need to have a physical game

7:24

space, especially with collectible games, I need to

7:26

have enough people to play games, right? I

7:28

have a global community that can do that.

7:30

And I can, you know, even if I

7:33

have a couple of friends locally, I can

7:35

play with, then I can play digitally. But

7:37

the way it works is I scan my

7:39

deck into my online account and if I

7:41

want to play in a tournament, the deck

7:43

has to be in my digital account. That's

7:45

how we track your scores and the decks

7:47

themselves can actually level up through tournament play

7:49

and earn experience and stuff. is also cool

7:51

and something you can't really do in a

7:53

normal TCG, because this is your deck, there's

7:55

no other one like it. But if I

7:57

want to trade the deck to you, then

8:00

what I do is I unlock the deck

8:02

for my digital account, which you can just

8:04

do in your settings, and then I hand

8:06

you the physical deck and you scan the

8:08

physical deck back into your account, you lock

8:10

it in your account, and then it's yours.

8:12

And so I was like, okay, well, why

8:14

can't I just do that digitally? And that's

8:16

exactly where there's no reason. Well, I'll give

8:18

you the reason that to try to do

8:20

it, because a lot of people ask the

8:22

question, and I think it's fair, I ask

8:24

the same question, like, why block team? Why

8:27

do we care? To try to make that

8:29

happen on our own private servers, like a

8:31

traditional thing, is both incredibly expensive, and there's

8:33

a lot of like challenging regulations around it,

8:35

and like, like, like, it leads to an

8:37

enormous amount of problems. But by using the

8:39

blockchain, we were able to build a system

8:41

that lets people do exactly the same thing

8:43

as they do with their physical deck. So

8:45

instead of, if I have a digital deck

8:47

of my account, I can unlock it as

8:49

an NFT, which I put it into my

8:51

digital wallet, I can sell it to you,

8:54

trade it to you, put it on an

8:56

exchange to Magic Eden, then where we now

8:58

have a whole marketplace, and you can then

9:00

put it in your account, lock it to

9:02

your account, and then play it just like

9:04

normal. And that was important to me to

9:06

make it both understandable because I'll be honest

9:08

with you. I've been in the space for

9:10

a while and a lot of this blockchain

9:12

stuff is pretty confusing and feels kind of

9:14

scamming and I wanted to just feel like

9:16

the thing that felt natural there. And then

9:18

there's layers on top of that that I'm

9:21

excited to build too, which I can talk

9:23

about where I do think that there's that's

9:25

the simple. version of blockchain that I think

9:27

is like kind of the no-brainer anybody that

9:29

plays a collectible game should appreciate this value

9:31

it's not trying to shoehorn a system into

9:33

something that doesn't make sense like the fact

9:35

that I own my digital my collectible cards

9:37

that I can sell them if I want

9:39

to that I can you know trade them

9:41

by them whatever that's the way it should

9:43

be and so that's what the blockchain allows

9:45

there and then I do think there are

9:48

more interesting things you could do with blockchain

9:50

you could do with blockchain you could do

9:52

with blockchain these NFTs, or we have our

9:54

own kind of token that lets you mint

9:56

the NFTs, that you will actually get a

9:58

say in what the future of organized play

10:00

and events and community building looks like. And

10:02

I'll give an example of why I think

10:04

about, I think this is important. With Magic

10:06

the Gathering, right, the, everybody now knows commander

10:08

format, most popular format, people play, but Wizards

10:10

of the Coast resisted commander for many, many,

10:12

many, many years. It was an unofficial format.

10:15

They didn't want people playing it. They didn't

10:17

support it. They didn't do anything. It took

10:19

a long time, like a decade. before they

10:21

finally realize like the players like batting down

10:23

the door like saying hey this is what

10:25

we want this is what really play matters

10:27

and I think that's crazy right and so

10:29

players know best in terms of what the

10:31

what kinds of ways they want to play

10:33

what kinds of environments they want to have

10:35

what you know in digital gaming terms kinds

10:37

of mods or tournaments or events or formats

10:39

all that stuff right and so I think

10:42

players should have a say in that and

10:44

so we'll be using some of the web

10:46

three elements to let players to let players

10:48

vote and decide what types of things to

10:50

do. Now, that's an important distinction from letting

10:52

players make game design decisions. And this is

10:54

one of the things I think other games

10:56

that have done as a main mistake, because

10:58

I think game design is a craft. It's

11:00

a skill that you hone over many, many

11:02

years. And I don't think players, I think

11:04

if you gave players everything they say they

11:06

want in a game, it will be a

11:09

minimal play experience. So that part, we're going

11:11

to retain centralized control of, but I do

11:13

think there's a lot of ways to make

11:15

players really feel like they. Because when you

11:17

build a collectible game, right, I mean, I'm,

11:19

again, I'm speaking from experience, like, it becomes

11:21

a part of your identity, right? I was,

11:23

I have a magic player. Like, that's who

11:25

I was, how I made my core friend.

11:27

It's became a part of who, you know,

11:29

everything about me. And if you're going to

11:31

be like, whether it be salt for fusion

11:33

or any of salt for fusion or any

11:36

of the other games that other games that

11:38

other games that are out there, or any

11:40

of the other games that are out there,

11:42

I want you to feel that sense of

11:44

ownership and I want you to have some

11:46

real ownership, like not just words. And I

11:48

think that's one of the things that the

11:50

promise of the blockchain allows that I'm eager

11:52

to explore. And again, I want to make

11:54

it very clear like 100% of this is

11:56

often nobody's forced to do it. You can

11:58

play the game physically without ever touching the

12:00

blockhand. if you, everything kind of merges together

12:03

to create what I hope is a best

12:05

of all world's experience for players. I've

12:08

got a ton of questions, but

12:10

David, I want to make sure

12:13

you have just a job. Yeah,

12:15

I'm actually interested in the, in

12:17

the, the resurrecting part. Like the

12:19

game, original Soul Forge came down

12:21

from sure a number of different

12:23

reasons and you wanted to, to,

12:25

to bring about it, like, what's

12:27

clearly something had to change and

12:29

we've talked a little bit a

12:31

bit a little bit about what

12:33

it is, but like, from like,

12:35

your, perspective on like

12:38

entering into this project of

12:40

like we're going to try

12:42

again, what did you think

12:44

was sort of worth reinvesting

12:46

in? And what did you

12:48

see that sort of indicated

12:50

that like the direction that

12:52

you're taking makes this like

12:54

second swing worthwhile? Yeah,

12:56

it's a great question, some meatiness to the

12:59

answer, both business strategy, game design strategy, and

13:01

personal psychology. They all play it. I'll be

13:03

honest, because listen, I've made a lot of

13:05

games over the years. I've honestly lost count

13:08

of the number of games I've made over

13:10

the years. I love making games. And several

13:12

games I've made have gone out of print.

13:14

And that sucks. You're not great. But when

13:17

a game was out of print, if you

13:19

bought that game, you still have it. You

13:21

still can play it. You still can do

13:23

everything that you want with that game. And

13:26

that's cool. Like, you know, I don't make

13:28

any more of it, but it's still yours.

13:30

You still have it. It's still yours. You

13:32

still have it. And it's still yours. You

13:35

still have it. It's if I want to.

13:37

For the first time ever in my career.

13:39

When we shut the Salford servers down, it

13:41

was gone. Everybody's collection is gone. The entire

13:44

community destroyed. The entire like people who invested

13:46

lots of money, lots of time, again, it

13:48

becomes part of your identity. It becomes like,

13:50

you know, people got like tattoos of our

13:53

characters. Like it's like legit stuff. And it's

13:55

gone. And that was like. was literally the

13:57

most painful thing they were having. I mean,

13:59

I almost bankrupted my company, like, trying to

14:02

keep it alive for a way for them

14:04

was reasonable. And so I, and I had

14:06

to do a lot of soul searching into

14:08

like, why did that go the way away?

14:11

And there's a lot of factors that come

14:13

into play, right? I was never built a

14:15

digital team and digital game before that, right?

14:17

I was doing it. I was just. I

14:20

thought I was like, arrogant, I'll give you

14:22

that. I thought I could do it. And

14:24

again, a little bit of like, arrogance or

14:26

putspah, as I like to put it, is

14:29

like, you need it. If you're gonna be

14:31

an entrepreneur, if you're gonna try to make

14:33

something new, you gotta believe in yourself. And

14:35

we made, and we made, and we made

14:38

several mistakes along the way. And we made,

14:40

and we made several mistakes along the way,

14:42

I think, and we made several mistakes along

14:44

the way, and we made several mistakes along,

14:47

we made several mistakes along, we made several

14:49

mistakes along, we made several mistakes along, we

14:51

made several mistakes along, I mean, And we

14:53

set our goal at $250,000. And this is

14:56

back in the early days of Kickstarter. And

14:58

we crushed that goal. We got almost $500,000.

15:00

I'm like, great. We did it. We crushed

15:02

it. This is we're amazing. You know what

15:05

it cost me to build that game? three,

15:07

I don't know. Three, I was going to

15:09

say three, four, three, four probably to keep

15:11

it right. Exactly. As long as you did,

15:14

it probably had like another burn rate of

15:16

at least 10 20K a month, like. Yep.

15:18

It was, it was massive. Exactly. And I

15:20

didn't, I've, that's the level of like ignorance

15:23

I had at the time. Sure. I think

15:25

you're, you're not alone in that. I think

15:27

it's a, it's a, it surprises people. how

15:29

much and so then and then when we

15:32

you know we had some great early traction

15:34

and then like you know blizzard launched hearstone

15:36

and they had spent you know eight million

15:38

dollars building their game and then another two

15:41

million dollars launching and marketing it and like

15:43

here we don't and we just didn't we

15:45

weren't ready we didn't have the capacity we

15:47

didn't have marketing budget we don't know so

15:50

so it was just you know one of

15:52

those challenges that and so so I had

15:54

to make a judgment call was like okay

15:56

you know like Do I really believe in

15:59

this? And the truth was I did. And

16:01

I think that the while I think the

16:03

failures were more technical timing financial than they

16:05

were like fundamentals of like what makes this

16:08

game great. Now, so I had to make

16:10

that call and then, and then now that's

16:12

that's kind of the first major piece. And

16:14

then there's the piece of like now, how

16:17

did I, why did we choose to launch

16:19

it the way we launched it, right? Because

16:21

we didn't just bring Solforge back. We brought

16:23

Solfor Fusion. We had, we had, we had,

16:26

we had a physical game, all the stuff.

16:28

And that is a combination of factors. Again,

16:30

personal psychology. I don't ever just want to

16:32

rehash the same thing, right? I want to

16:35

always push the boundaries of what, like, Solfor's

16:37

was interesting to Richard and I. I don't

16:39

know if I told the story on the

16:41

podcast the first time, but like, the way

16:44

we got to do Solfor's the first time

16:46

was like, it's 2011, it's at. Pack's Dev

16:48

conference, right? And I had just launched Ascension

16:50

the year before, so I got to do

16:53

a talk, which was cool for me. And

16:55

then Richard was doing a talk, and of

16:57

course I'm gonna go learn at the field

16:59

of the master, right? And I listened to

17:02

his talk, and at the end of the

17:04

talk, he has a, somebody asked a question,

17:06

hey, what's your favorite game right now? And

17:08

he says an ascension. And I like jump

17:11

for Joy. literally jump for joy as a

17:13

whole room lasts and like, but it gave

17:15

me my end. And so after the talk,

17:17

I went up and started chatting with him

17:20

and we talked for three hours. Like we

17:22

instantly knew we wanted to make so forth

17:24

and the reason we wanted to make so

17:26

forth and the reason we wanted to make

17:29

so much, it wasn't anything like what it

17:31

ended up being, of course, the design and

17:33

directions were very different, but we wanted to

17:35

push that boundaries of hey, this mobile technology

17:38

is amazing. We can take the best of

17:40

TCGs and bring it. Now, fast forward to,

17:42

you know, 2022 or whatever, or 2020, 2020

17:44

is when we start, 2021, we start having

17:47

this conversation again. It's not the same thing

17:49

at all, right? It's like, it's mobile games

17:51

and TCGs are everywhere. There's tons of them.

17:53

So just doing that is not, it's not

17:56

pushing the boundaries. What is pushing the boundaries

17:58

is what we've done with Salt Board Fusion,

18:00

right? Like, digital technology, digital printing technology. just

18:02

brand new, we could do more with that.

18:05

Having the ability to have a truly connected

18:07

collection. No one's ever done that before, where

18:09

I really have a one-to-one correlation across the

18:11

spectrums. And so that is what made it

18:14

like exciting for us. And I also wanted

18:16

to make sure I didn't end up in

18:18

the same situation because, look, I'm going to

18:20

do everything in my power to make Sulphore

18:23

Choose to succeed. But I can't guarantee that

18:25

it's going to last forever, right? Nobody can.

18:27

So you will still have your physical substitution

18:29

decks and be able to play them. And

18:32

if we, and the plan for the part

18:34

of the plan for the blockchain is eventually

18:36

we'll be able to transfer not just your

18:38

decks to the blockchain, but also we'll be

18:41

able to transfer not just your decks to

18:43

the blockchain, but also server management and control

18:45

to the blockchain where it would be like,

18:47

in the plan for the blockchain, I

18:51

have a couple of questions around, I don't

18:53

know if their questions are on money or

18:55

loyalty, but so first of all, the old

18:57

Soul Forge fans, the ones with the tattoos

19:00

and stuff, have they come back? Did you

19:02

make them right somehow? Like what is the

19:04

bridge there? Let me ask that first. Yes,

19:06

I think many of them have, right? Many

19:08

of them think I'm the devil and never

19:10

don't want to talk to me anymore. And

19:12

it was, you know, that's just the reality,

19:15

like people think that I took away their

19:17

toys and that because I wanted to somehow

19:19

or I just, I don't know, something. You

19:21

should have bankrupted yourself actually, really. Yeah, that's,

19:23

that was my mistake. Because they would care

19:25

so much about you. That's right. I could

19:28

tell that about that. No, but so what

19:30

we did was so, so we did, we

19:32

did our best to make them whole. Every

19:34

one of them, we messes to everybody that

19:36

back our original Kickstarter, we message, we emailed

19:38

every one of our original software players that,

19:41

you know, we're still have their contact information,

19:43

and we said, hey, here's the new, here's

19:45

the contact information, and we said, hey, here's

19:47

the new, here's the new, here's contact information,

19:49

we're still have their contact information, tried to

19:51

make everybody whole, obviously it's not a one

19:53

to one, right? The same, the card functionality

19:56

slightly shifted and the decks are slightly, so

19:58

I can't like really exactly reinstate your collection,

20:00

but we did our damnedest to make sure

20:02

that everybody was not only whole, but like

20:04

above and beyond in terms of the amount

20:06

of free stuff we gave because both horse

20:09

women exist without, especially those original backers and

20:11

players. And I understand, I mean, I know

20:13

what it would, what, what it, I promise

20:15

you that it hurt me that it hurt

20:17

me more than it hurt me more than

20:19

it hurt me more than it hurt me

20:22

more than hurt me more than it hurt

20:24

you. to lose all of that back then.

20:26

But I understand as a player perspective how

20:28

much it hurt and how it can feel

20:30

when you've invested so much of yourself. Forget

20:32

money and your psyche or, you know, your

20:35

identity into a thing and to have it

20:37

ripped away from you. And so, yeah, we've

20:39

done our best to make every one of

20:41

them whole. And a lot of the original

20:43

software players, if you happen to be listening

20:45

to this and you didn't catch any of

20:47

our messages or anything, if you log in

20:50

to Sophorthesion. with your same email address from

20:52

your original cell phone account, there's like a

20:54

claim airdrop button, which you, up until I

20:56

think December 4th, is valid to claim, there'll

20:58

be free tokens and three goodies for you.

21:01

That's really cool. And so my other

21:03

question is getting into like the blockchain

21:05

aspect and how it gets into finance.

21:07

So in TCG's finance has become such

21:09

a big part of the conversation. People

21:11

are investing in these things. They see

21:13

them as financial assets. And also that

21:15

has created ups and downs with people's

21:18

confidence in games. There's also I'm going

21:20

to combine a few things inelegantly, but

21:22

there's also the notion of power creep

21:24

and how from a play perspective power

21:26

creep makes old assets less valuable potentially.

21:28

So you in leaning into the blockchain

21:30

you have Even if it's not really

21:32

different, it just is using this different

21:34

thing, but it's just the same as

21:36

other games, it will, I believe, it's

21:38

thinking about player psychology, position you more

21:40

in the realm of finance, because people

21:42

don't think of blockchain as just a

21:44

one-to-one currency. Most people, they think of

21:47

it as this. know stalks, free tendies,

21:49

let's chase the big bucks world. So

21:51

you're kind of getting into this environment

21:53

where you're not, I'm sure this wasn't

21:55

your intent, but you are shifting people

21:57

to think of you more from the

21:59

standpoint of financial vehicle. How do you

22:01

keep the cards fresh? How do you

22:03

avoid power creep that invalidates these? these

22:05

financial pieces that people have joined block

22:07

chains to manage and I just want

22:09

to say how it all fits together

22:11

and what you're thinking on it all

22:13

is yeah well I mean look you

22:16

use the analogy of a trading card

22:18

game and I think that's a good

22:20

a good way to think about it

22:22

right there's different when you put financial

22:24

incentives into a game it changes the

22:26

game right poker actually a really boring

22:28

game without money If you ever play

22:30

poker with nothing on the line, it's

22:32

not interesting at all. But once you

22:34

start turning that dial up and that

22:36

money becomes like a meaningful or pain

22:38

point for you, all of a sudden

22:40

poker is fascinating and there's a lot

22:43

at stake, right? So the game of

22:45

poker is made better by the fact

22:47

that there's money on the line. And

22:49

there are other games where the dial

22:51

goes the other way, right, where there's

22:53

like premium games where they're trying, all

22:55

they care about is believing you for

22:57

cash and they're constantly hitting, you know,

22:59

like pay walls and barriers and they're

23:01

making the gameplay harder to force you

23:03

to pay, right? And that's an area

23:05

where the monetization, they're trying to entirely

23:07

capture money value and in exchange for

23:09

hurting your play value, right? So that's

23:12

a bad case of money on the

23:14

line. When it comes to things like

23:16

TCGs, I think about it in terms

23:18

of who could capture the increase in

23:20

value of the system, right? So if

23:22

Magic releases sets, they make money off

23:24

the initial sales, but the players make

23:26

money off the secondary market. The consumers

23:28

make money up the secondary market. So

23:30

the success of Magic, in a way,

23:32

partially there's money made by the by

23:34

the company, of course, quite a bit

23:36

of it. then there's a lot of

23:38

money that gets made by the players,

23:41

the people who choose to invest and

23:43

choose to play the game and choose

23:45

to own the cards. And that has,

23:47

that's in general, been a good thing

23:49

for the lifespan of magic. It means

23:51

that there's entirely, you know, places like

23:53

Star City games can run entire tournament

23:55

series and there's a lot more like

23:57

community and infrastructure and stores can live,

23:59

I mean, literally the gaming community entirely

24:01

wouldn't exist the way it would exist

24:03

the way it would. So there's a

24:05

value capture is not 100% of the

24:08

companies anymore. But when you look at

24:10

something like Magic Arena, where Wizards said,

24:12

no, you know what, instead of the

24:14

way they did Magic Online originally, where

24:16

their players have the accounts and they

24:18

can even sell stuff back and forth,

24:20

a little bit of the way they

24:22

did Magic Online originally, where their players

24:24

have the accounts and they can even

24:26

sell stuff back and forth, a little

24:28

bit, and so Wizards makes more money,

24:30

percentage wise off everything they do in

24:32

Magic Physical. Now, I believe that players

24:34

should be able to participate and capture

24:37

value in the system. And because again,

24:39

I think it's part of their identity,

24:41

I think the community, like gameplay, if

24:43

it's not a great game, you're out

24:45

of, you're out of, you're out of,

24:47

you're out of, you're out of, you're

24:49

out of contention and having a chance

24:51

of success. And having a contention and

24:53

having a chance to success, but really

24:55

it's the community that's not a great

24:57

game, you're out of, you're out of,

24:59

you're out of, you're out of, you're

25:01

out of, you're out of, you're out

25:03

of, you're out of, you're out of,

25:06

you're out of, you're out of, you're

25:08

out of, you're out of, you're out

25:10

of, you're out of, you're, you're out

25:12

of, you're, you're out of, you're out

25:14

of, you're, you're out of, you're out

25:16

of, you're, you're, you And with blockchain

25:18

now, there's also a sole forge token

25:20

that if the game, and again, we're

25:22

not making it, I want to be

25:24

very clear, I'm not making any promises

25:26

of financial gain, I'm not trying, my

25:28

goal is not raising any prices of

25:30

anything, but if it does well and

25:33

there's value to the token, players can

25:35

earn it from playing, they can use

25:37

it for various things in the game,

25:39

buying packs, minting their decks and entities

25:41

and other things in the future, then.

25:43

Players will gain the benefit of that,

25:45

right? And we've never sold one token

25:47

to any player ever. We just air

25:49

dropped it. We gave it away to

25:51

sort of set up the system. And

25:53

I think that's a really fascinating game

25:55

design. an opportunity to solve was how

25:57

does that giving more value into the

25:59

hands of the players and letting that

26:02

be something that we all fare, right,

26:04

that being something that incentivizes players or

26:06

at least creates a better overall community

26:08

where as we, you know, good, if

26:10

magic has this to some degree, right,

26:12

where if I, I draw people into

26:14

play magic and I promote magic, then

26:16

the value of my collectibles go up.

26:18

Right. And that same now with blockchain

26:20

there's a even greater incentive in theory.

26:22

Now you see it happening with the

26:24

meme coins and the stalks and the

26:26

those coins and all that nonsense where

26:28

it's literally just only thing is hyped.

26:31

And what I'm trying to build from

26:33

the fundamentals. I want to make a

26:35

great game. I want to make sure

26:37

that the stuff that we build in

26:39

blockchain actually has utility that does something

26:41

meaningful, right? I can use it to

26:43

play the game, I can use it

26:45

to buy packs, I can do things.

26:47

And then from there, now if it,

26:49

you know, if that accrues value, it's

26:51

not just value to the company, it's

26:53

not just value to Stone Blade, it's

26:55

value to the players as well. So

26:58

we've been talking about a lot of this

27:00

money stuff because it's innovative and interesting and

27:02

different. Let's get to brass tax. Talk about

27:05

the game. You know, it's, it's, it's, it's,

27:07

how does it play? What are the mechanics?

27:09

Take us through that a little bit. Yeah,

27:11

yeah. So my favorite, so the original soul

27:13

for is the heart of the original soul

27:15

for which lives on and soul for fusion,

27:17

and that was every target you draw a

27:20

hand of five carts. You will play two

27:22

cards, your opponent will play two cards. You

27:24

creatures get played into lanes, there's five lanes

27:26

of combat. At the end of the turn,

27:28

any of the creatures that are in the

27:30

front of the lane will initiate combat, they're

27:32

like, you know, aggressive, ready. They attack whatever's

27:35

across from them, sticky damage. If there's nothing

27:37

across them, they deal damage the opponent. You

27:39

can knock your opponent from 50 to zero

27:41

before they do the same new way. What's

27:43

interesting is that cards don't have mana costs,

27:45

casting costs, or anything like that. What they

27:47

do instead is whenever you play a card,

27:49

that card levels up and the level up

27:52

version goes into your discard pile. So in

27:54

the physical game, you'd play a level one

27:56

into the lane, you'd grab a level two

27:58

from the side deck, put the level two

28:00

deck in the side into the discard pile.

28:02

In the digital game, of course, it handles

28:04

all that for you. three turns, you shuffle

28:07

your deck and get access to your higher

28:09

level cards. So the game not only is

28:11

it's balanced by the fact that maybe your

28:13

stronger level one cards don't level up as

28:15

well as your weaker level one cards. And

28:17

it also creates this really cool story moment

28:19

because like for example the scorch, scorch main

28:22

dragon is one of my favorite cards. It

28:24

starts off as a little egg. It's an

28:26

oh six egg in level one terrible car.

28:28

Level two it's a little, it's a whelp,

28:30

not a bad card, not a great card.

28:32

And then a level three it's a giant

28:34

fire breeding dragon that lights up all the

28:37

opponent's lanes lanes lanes and does awesome stuff.

28:39

Right. So that to me is both a

28:41

great story, it's a design and development wise,

28:43

I balance the game around this interesting mechanic

28:45

without having to get in the way of

28:47

like, I mean, again, man is an incredibly

28:49

useful game, but it's an incredibly useful game

28:52

design tool, but it's a ridiculous abstraction. Nobody

28:54

can get man a screw, nobody can run

28:56

out, you know, not have everybody you can

28:58

play any card your hand, but you and

29:00

you and you sort of evolve your deck

29:02

as you sort of. And so on. So

29:04

that was kind of the heart of Soul

29:07

Forge. Originally, that's been carried over to Salt

29:09

Port Fusion. The differences are the fusion part.

29:11

So obviously, original Soul Forge is more like

29:13

a traditional TCG. You just built your deck

29:15

of whatever you wanted. Here you pick any

29:17

two different faction decks, there's four factions. You

29:19

shuffle them together. And each deck comes with

29:22

a forge-born, which is kind of like a

29:24

commander, and you get to pick which of

29:26

the two decks commanders you want to be

29:28

representing representing you. And that means that every

29:30

time you shuffle your deck you're forge born

29:32

accesses a new higher level power so you

29:34

get access to a power that you get

29:37

to use once per cycle like once per

29:39

time you shuffle. And so those are really

29:41

cool. And now there's some interesting design reasons

29:43

why that came about which I'm happy to

29:45

share the story of because I think it

29:47

illustrates a really cool design principle which is

29:49

a. So when in the original

29:51

version of the game, it was all digital

29:54

only. So the when you choose to shuffle

29:56

your deck and reset it was was easy.

29:58

the game could in theory go on forever

30:00

because your level three cards would just stay

30:02

in the deck until it was done. And

30:04

the game sometimes did go on forever as

30:06

one of the challenges with the game. In

30:08

the physical version of the game, we had

30:10

to make sure that the game would A,

30:12

and B, because we would know when the

30:14

game was, how the game was tracking. And

30:16

you had to have some kind of counter

30:18

to know how many times you shuffled to

30:20

know where you were in the game state.

30:22

And so we had originally a little tracker

30:24

thing that was like, all right, you shop

30:26

with one time, all right, you shop with

30:28

two times, all right, you shop with that.

30:30

That was both incredibly boring, annoying to do

30:32

the thing and people forgot it all the

30:35

time. And so how do we make a

30:37

bug a feature? And that was, okay, no,

30:39

no, let's make you get on. awesome cool

30:41

power every time you love love and now

30:43

all of a sudden it became something you

30:45

never forgot you were really excited about it

30:47

and now I started to move forward and

30:49

so then and then we gave those personas

30:51

and we gave them more characters and then

30:53

now we started to build a whole storyline

30:55

around those things so there's actually storyline events

30:57

I don't know when this episode's gonna air

30:59

exactly but we have a storyline event that

31:01

we're doing a global storyline event that's happening

31:03

I think next week where we're going to

31:05

be launching a new campaign inside the game,

31:07

which remind me I don't talk about campaign

31:09

modes and how they work in Salt Forest

31:11

Fusion. And quickly that we will be well

31:13

after that has launched. So this will argue.

31:16

All right, so all right, so this is

31:18

already exactly, this is already happening, and I'm

31:20

sorry for all of you who missed it.

31:22

But we do these all the time. We

31:24

actually will have another storyline event at packs

31:26

unplugged, which is for if we get in

31:28

December. So maybe this will be out before

31:30

that, and I will be there personally. And

31:32

so what we do with the storyline event

31:34

is when you participate in the storyline event

31:36

with your deck, you will influence the law

31:38

of the world, you'll influence which cards show

31:40

up in future sets. And we actually have

31:42

our writers write a custom story that gets

31:44

permanently attached to your deck. So the digital

31:46

like NFT and collectible of your deck has

31:48

that story attached to it. You become this

31:50

kind of artifact, this legendary artifact as part

31:52

of the world and your character that you

31:54

represent. Now, that's what you personify and they

31:57

move up in the faction rankings and all

31:59

kinds of stuff happens, which is just another

32:01

cool thing that came out of a game

32:03

design problem that turned into this really. opportunity.

32:05

And so then I'll briefly mention how campaigns

32:07

work then because I don't want to leave

32:09

that hanging. So if you're if you're familiar

32:11

with games like Slay the Spire, I love

32:13

that game. I thought it was such a

32:15

cool innovation on the deck building genre and

32:17

I loved the idea that you could play

32:19

a campaign that would algorithmically generate and change

32:21

every time. So that's exactly how soft workstation

32:23

works. We have a campaign that you can

32:25

battle, but you bring your own deck into

32:27

the back. So you confuse your own deck,

32:29

bring it into the game. Every time it's

32:31

going to be a different set of bosses

32:33

to fight, empowers to upgrade, and then there's

32:35

a big end boss. The first end boss

32:38

was Roklusa, a giant spider, kind of like

32:40

she loved from Lord of the Rings, and

32:42

then the second boss, which will have already

32:44

released by the time. And so every time

32:46

you battle it's different, your deck actually earns

32:48

XP in every fight, which means you get

32:50

to pick new upgrades for the deck. And

32:52

so the deck actually gets better and the

32:54

more you play and so you can advance

32:56

and then there's essential levels that you, the

32:58

bosses get better and stronger and so you

33:00

have a bunch of infinite challenges and play,

33:02

whether or not you want to play against

33:04

other people is another really cool, entirely other

33:06

game system we built that I forgot to

33:08

mention before. So it sounds

33:11

like in your game, the atomic unit

33:13

is not the card, it's the tribe.

33:15

There's not constructed where I could take

33:17

a bunch of cards across many different

33:19

decks and make something. I have a

33:21

tribe and then a second tribe and

33:23

I mash them. That's how I construct,

33:25

is that correct? That's exactly right. Yeah,

33:28

so everybody has in PDP play, you

33:30

have two. customization choices, which of the

33:32

two different faction decks or tribes as

33:34

you put it, we call it factions,

33:36

you're going to shuffle together, and then

33:38

which of the two forge-born you want

33:40

to be your main character that will

33:43

represent you and give you power throughout

33:45

the game. In the PBE mode, where

33:47

you're playing against the bosses, in the

33:49

algorithm generic campaign, you will then have

33:51

another, like, as you level, the deck

33:53

levels up 20 times, and it's like

33:55

10 different choice points you get of

33:57

like, which you want to upgrade, which

34:00

cards you want to upgrade. We don't

34:02

let those upgrades carry over to PVP

34:04

because it kind of would be unfair

34:06

and busted and in PDE we give

34:08

you more ways to customize your individual

34:10

cards. So I've played some

34:12

of the more recent games like Hearthstone and

34:15

Legends of Runtaira and they haven't worked for

34:17

me. This is no criticism to the games,

34:19

but magic lets me play in so many

34:22

different ways. And personally, I'm a blue black

34:24

player. I can't get that experience in those

34:26

games. They're very tactical, they're very green, red,

34:28

white. Not blue, like blue is really hard

34:31

to come by in those kind of games.

34:33

I have some ideas for the reasons for

34:35

that, but it is Soul Fortune also just

34:38

not able to get that full broad experience,

34:40

is it more tactical? And again, it's not

34:42

a criticism, but I personally happen to prefer

34:44

the blue way of playing. Yeah, yeah, no,

34:47

I hate listen, I'm a blue player at

34:49

my core, every major time that I won

34:51

in my career was with a blue deck.

34:53

So I hear you. I think that there

34:56

are It's somewhere in the middle, right? Like

34:58

you can't really succeed with a creatureless deck

35:00

that a game likes all four species, right?

35:03

You need some creatures to play. In fact,

35:05

our algorithm won't even let you get a

35:07

creatureless stack. It's just like, you know, the

35:09

game is very combat focused. So in that

35:12

sense, you do have to like battle. However,

35:14

we made it a point to make sure

35:16

that you could play very defensive, long game

35:19

control. games. You can have things that defeat

35:21

other players. In fact, in our first set,

35:23

we didn't include this, but in our, we've

35:25

released three sets now total, and they can

35:28

all be acquired by the way, also like

35:30

completely for free by playing the game and

35:32

we have a mastery track, we can unlock

35:35

the decks and get caught up, no problem.

35:37

But we included what we call exaltz, which

35:39

are basically like lane enchantments to use magic,

35:41

to use magic terms, other abilities. So there

35:44

are there are control strategies, there are combo

35:46

strategies, there are aggressive strategies. So but but

35:48

we don't let you do so you have

35:50

to do it is creature combat focused and

35:53

it is also you know you you can't

35:55

like interrupt your opponent in the middle of

35:57

their turn either right and that's and that's

36:00

not no counter spells now there are there

36:02

are there are like preemptive counter spells or

36:04

you can like pull a card out of

36:06

somebody's hand there are obviously destroy effects and

36:09

and the game is always one to one

36:11

back forth like I play card you play

36:13

card I play card so I can counter

36:16

what you're doing but there are no counter

36:18

spells and that's for a good technical technical

36:20

you know, like the timing and like the

36:22

problem of magic we have to like pass

36:25

past to like allow spell to resolve and

36:27

stuff is terrible for digital games. Like it's

36:29

just it's like it's terrible. So that's a

36:32

reason why nobody does that anymore. We're the

36:34

same way. We're the same way. You know,

36:36

we're the same way. You know, we're the

36:38

same way. You know, we're the same way.

36:41

We're the same thing that that does exist

36:43

in Soul Fortune. But but we had to

36:45

make adjustments for the reality. Yeah, both great

36:48

questions. We put a lot of thought into

36:50

it. I don't I don't want to say

36:52

I don't understand it so I understand it,

36:54

but how do you get things to feel

36:57

like they're curated and cool as opposed to

36:59

just mashed and then a follow-up question. How

37:01

do you balance it? Yeah, both great questions.

37:03

We put a lot of thought into it.

37:06

This is something Richard and I spent a

37:08

lot of time on. Now, there's a couple

37:10

aspects. When it comes to how do you

37:13

design, so when I started this conversation saying,

37:15

oh, there's 20,000 unique cards in set one,

37:17

now that number's way more, there's more decks

37:19

and atoms in the universe, like, oh, there's

37:22

a sense, that's cool. And in other sense,

37:24

like, how do I like, grock it? How

37:26

do I get my head around this? Like,

37:29

what, how do I understand what's going on?

37:31

And so we want to make sure that

37:33

it was using a discrete number of a

37:35

discrete number of arts that everybody of arts

37:38

that everybody could understand that everybody could understand,

37:40

to play the game. And so the way

37:42

I'll break that down. So what that means

37:45

is there's there's some holistically designed cards which

37:47

are just like other TCG cards like a

37:49

scorchworm the scorch main dragon rather you know

37:51

that's a it's a card we design. only

37:54

gonna see it that one way, that's what

37:56

it is. Then there are other cards as

37:58

we call, internally we call them splice cards.

38:00

And what a splice card is, is basically

38:03

an adjective and a noun. So there might

38:05

be an arrogant worm, and there might be

38:07

an ice yeti. And what the algorithm can

38:10

do is switch the adjectives in the nouns.

38:12

So there might be an arrogant worm, and

38:14

there might be an arrogant yeti. And ice

38:16

means something specific, and yeti means something specific.

38:19

And if you combine those two things together,

38:21

you're always gonna get the same. Right, and

38:23

so it, so in that sense, you can

38:26

know 300 discrete elements from set one, and

38:28

you would actually would be able to understand

38:30

the entirety of any card that could be

38:32

produced. Does that make sense? It does, but

38:35

there has to be some balance overall, right?

38:37

So you both need variety, things can't all

38:39

be the same power level or else it's

38:42

boring, but then you need it at the,

38:44

it's not tribe, what's the right word, faction?

38:46

Absolutely, at the faction level, you do need

38:48

balance, right? If there's wildly asymmetrical factions, that

38:51

probably wouldn't work real well. Yeah, yeah. And

38:53

so that comes down to, you know, as

38:55

with all of these things, you know, some

38:57

art, some science, and then we had to

39:00

use, we had to use a lot of

39:02

tools because like, you know, again, if there's

39:04

20,000 possible cards, we can't test all the

39:07

cards. Right. Right. That's just not going to

39:09

happen. Right. We just, we're not, we're not

39:11

a big a big a team. And so

39:13

what we did was we created our own

39:16

internal kind of algorithms and like kind of

39:18

red flag systems that like, hey, this pair

39:20

created a attack power that's out of line

39:23

for a level one creature. And that would

39:25

flag it for us and say, okay, let's

39:27

take a look at that. Is that really

39:29

out of line? Is there a problem here?

39:32

Do we need to change this? And that

39:34

would help us to surface individual problem cards

39:36

that were out of line. The individual powers

39:39

and how we tested those was easier. You

39:41

know, I know typically speaking if a power

39:43

was self-referential like deal damage equal to this

39:45

creature's attack or something like that, those ones

39:48

we always looked at hand by hand because

39:50

those would be much more like custom tailored,

39:52

but another one it's like, you know, activate

39:55

guilt through damage. know what that is, we

39:57

can balance, you know, we don't have to,

39:59

I don't have to test every single stack

40:01

combination that has that ability. I just know

40:04

I'm going to penalize a creature by they

40:06

to attack points or four attack points for

40:08

giving them that power, and then that will

40:10

balance out whatever pair it makes, right? So,

40:13

so we would, we would work through testing,

40:15

a playing game, going to feel for it,

40:17

you can't escape that, but we would also

40:20

use the algorithm to surface, decent and playable.

40:22

And this was something Richard and I actually

40:24

thought over at the beginning, because Richard's philosophy,

40:26

and you could see this in Keyford, especially

40:29

a lot of the other sense, was like,

40:31

look, let the algorithm run, man, let the

40:33

variety is awesome, and that's see what happens.

40:36

And that would create, and there's coolness about

40:38

that, because you can see these crazy decks

40:40

don't make any sense at all, but you

40:42

would definitely have decks that you like, this

40:45

is completely unplayable. You can literally make a

40:47

game happen and we I didn't want to

40:49

see that like I just think I think

40:52

that we're willing to sacrifice some variety for

40:54

Playability and so not only will decks be

40:56

playable But decks will also always have a

40:58

minimum amount of synergy built into them So

41:01

we have kind of what we call steaks

41:03

provides notes where if you see a zombie

41:05

lord you're gonna have at least one zombie

41:07

in that deck for sure, right? You won't

41:10

see a zombie lord without zombies Now because

41:12

also in our game, you can customize, I

41:14

can go find another deck with zombies and

41:17

smash it together, I can still like find

41:19

the synergies myself, which to me, again, is

41:21

part of the fun of a TCG, I

41:23

wanna find the synergies, not just be given

41:26

them, but also we wanna make sure that

41:28

there was like, you know, some decks are

41:30

better than others, of course, chasing cool cars

41:33

and cool combos as part of the fun,

41:35

but we wanna make sure they stayed within

41:37

a. I'm wondering it seems

41:39

like such a wide design space that you

41:41

run the risk of either letting degenerative combinations

41:44

through and like you or making so that

41:46

each verb noun combination isn't actually that distinct

41:48

so that there isn't some sort of degenerative

41:50

combination. The only thing I can sort of

41:52

imagine if you had some sort of like

41:54

evolutionary automated testing that's like bashing hundreds of

41:56

thousands millions of decks together. Are you pursuing

41:58

any or did you pursue any sort of

42:01

like automated testing of like not only the

42:03

cars but also the deck building mashing? algorithm

42:05

can tell you give you some sense of

42:07

the deck combination is going to be good

42:09

or not and it's actually one of the

42:11

tools we're looking to build in the app

42:13

like right now we let you we have

42:15

my favorite way to play right now we

42:18

let you we have my favorite way to

42:20

play right now is the random button which

42:22

will just randomly pair any two decks in

42:24

your collection and play it's just so much

42:26

fun but we're working on a kind of

42:28

smart random button which will like pair decks

42:30

that are likely to go well to go

42:32

well to And so the algorithm can tell

42:35

that because it can find the basic synergies

42:37

we've tagged everything with basic energies, but the

42:39

algorithm is not like the AI is not

42:41

that smart to be perfectly honest is not

42:43

smart. It's like not playing at the level

42:45

of the best players. It's good enough if

42:47

you're like an average or below player, but

42:49

it's not like. So I don't think the

42:52

AI like we didn't like have a million

42:54

AIs all battle with a million decks to,

42:56

you know, create Shakespeare or whatever, you know,

42:58

we didn't do that. Again, like I've been

43:00

doing this a long time. I have my,

43:02

you know, I have people like Jason Zillow

43:04

on my team as another magic pro player,

43:06

a lot of really smart people. And obviously,

43:09

you know, Richard's amazing, but you know, he's

43:11

not, he's not a developer, he's more of

43:13

a, he's more of a design guy, but

43:15

I think we did a really freaking good

43:17

job if I do pat myself on the

43:19

back. I mean, like, you know, it's like,

43:21

I'm a little shocked by how I can

43:23

see. which decks are performing well, I can

43:26

see how things are ranking against each other.

43:28

And we've done a, and it's a very

43:30

balanced setup, and there's a lot of things,

43:32

and every now and then one new mechanic

43:34

and new card set will come up and,

43:36

you know, start to become dominant, and people

43:38

figure out strategy to beat it. And then,

43:40

of course, you know, we can release new

43:43

cards and new content too, so we can

43:45

make sure we know the med game a

43:47

little bit leaning this way, we can put

43:49

out new cards that help it lean the

43:51

other way, right? That's part of the crafting

43:53

as we go forward. And we also built

43:55

in another system, which is another, what I

43:57

think is a, in a sense, it's a

44:00

safety net, but it's also an awesome thing.

44:02

It's another one of the cases where I'm

44:04

really proud of how we turn the bug

44:06

into a future. So the reality is, no

44:08

matter how good I think I am, no

44:10

matter how good our algorithm is, no matter

44:12

how good our AI battle plot thing ends

44:14

up being, we're gonna miss sometimes. Just like

44:17

magic, they have their team is 20 times

44:19

the size of mind, their budgets 100 times

44:21

the size of mind, and they still miss,

44:23

they still have to be encouraged, they still

44:25

have problems, right? Nobody gets this right. you

44:27

can't. So you have to have, okay, how

44:29

do we deal with that? And I have,

44:31

we have never banned a car yet, and

44:34

I hope that we never have to. But

44:36

what we do is every deck has a

44:38

ranking. And I mentioned, when you play in

44:40

organized play, your deck can rank up and

44:42

go from bronze to silver to gold, based

44:44

upon how you go. And go from bronze

44:46

to silver to gold, based on how you

44:48

go. And go from bronze to silver to

44:51

gold based gold, based on, you have to

44:53

gold to gold to be. But also, we

44:55

make sure that those higher rank decks are

44:57

not allowed in low level tournaments. So you

44:59

can't just take your gold rank deck and

45:01

play it in your local hobby store bronze

45:03

event and expect. And so if a deck

45:05

is, you know, quote unquote too good or

45:08

becomes a higher tier, then you're only going

45:10

to be pulled out of the minnow pool

45:12

and you're going to have to battle other

45:14

sharks. And so we built a system that

45:16

allows you to, because it's not a card

45:18

that's broken, it would be at worst, it

45:20

would be a deck, right? That's just too

45:23

good. And that deck is a one of

45:25

a kind. And so as it evolves through

45:27

the system and eventually wins world championships and

45:29

reaches a Platinum level and wins prizes and

45:31

wins money, it kind of becomes a legendary

45:33

deck and it's not usable in any other

45:35

events. And so there's a sense in which

45:37

this is a prize and reward and we're

45:40

even looking in ways we could like build

45:42

in some like cool unique like blockchain rewards

45:44

and bonuses when you when you level up

45:46

a deck to maximum. And so it's an

45:48

achievement goal and a reward for the players

45:50

but it's also protection mechanism for if we

45:52

do miss and if we do have decks

45:54

that are too good relative to others, it

45:57

will pull itself out of the pool and

45:59

move to places where it's okay to have

46:01

those super competitive decks. You can correct this

46:03

if it's wrong or else comment on it,

46:05

if not. What it feels like is that

46:07

the secondary market is getting a more power

46:09

in your game compared to others. And what

46:11

made me think of it was the zombie

46:14

king example. So if I'm cracking and if

46:16

I crack a pack with a ton of

46:18

specific tribal, I suspect that that's worth a

46:20

lot because somebody's got the zombie king and

46:22

they're looking for a big tribal to smash

46:24

it with. Is that right? And how does

46:26

that impact the way that the community interacts

46:28

with the product and feels about it all?

46:31

Yeah, absolutely. Like that's the idea. And we're

46:33

we're trying to build a system that where

46:35

players can really benefit. And so it was

46:37

funny because we have a very great dedicated

46:39

community, great players that were when there was

46:41

only the physical game out before we had

46:43

any digital. trading and opportunities only opened up

46:45

about a month ago at the time we're

46:48

recording. And they would host their decks in

46:50

the discord and say, hey, once a second,

46:52

they would like negotiate trades through discord where

46:54

somebody would mail a physical deck across the

46:56

country. and the thing get PayPal back and

46:58

like you know trust that this was all

47:00

going to work and make it and and

47:02

hope to find the deck they're looking for

47:05

and that was a lot of people doing

47:07

that and it was like to show how

47:09

much people care and how much how valuable

47:11

those decks can become and now thankfully with

47:13

we have a whole deck marketplace on Magic

47:15

Eden where you can peruse the decks and

47:17

browse them and find the ones you're looking

47:19

for. We're working on better tools to search

47:22

and sort and like so you can find,

47:24

hey I want only decks of three or

47:26

more zombies in them and find the thing

47:28

you want and like build it and go.

47:30

And so that has been something people have

47:32

really reacted well to. It's something we're going

47:34

to continue to evolve. And yeah, that is

47:36

the bet I'm making with Soul Ford Fusion

47:39

is that there is. world that players want

47:41

to participate in where they get to participate

47:43

in more of the upside of the experience,

47:45

they get to have more control and ownership

47:47

over the entirety of what the game in

47:49

the community looks like, and that, you know,

47:51

and of course, that the game, the core

47:53

game is great at its own because I

47:56

believe in that game design now for 14

47:58

years or so, 13 to some odd years,

48:00

and that this bet on the community will

48:02

pay off in bringing this back to life.

48:04

You talked about mailing decks across the country

48:06

and how do you prevent if I'm dealing

48:08

with scammer? Scammer says, oh, I've got this

48:10

ace deck. Then we make the deal and

48:13

then I go to scan it in. It's

48:15

like, this has already been claimed or something.

48:17

How how is that negotiated? Right, and there's

48:19

nothing I can do about that in the

48:21

physical deck world. That's why we introduced the

48:23

NFT system, because the NFT system is very

48:25

straight. Okay, I'm going to do this on

48:27

the exchange, I'm going to buy it for

48:30

this amount, and it trades, and it's all

48:32

handled on the blockchain, and it's completely secure,

48:34

and everybody that does it right away. That's

48:36

exactly why we introduced NEDGE. Now, to be

48:38

fair, like, I don't know many cases where

48:40

many cases where that happen, most people are

48:42

good. Most people are good. That's right. But

48:44

you can't control for that. And then obviously

48:47

the bigger the game gets, the bigger the

48:49

community gets, the more money is on the

48:51

line, the more you hold in bad actors.

48:53

So that's part of why we introduced this

48:55

system is because, I mean, the reason blockchain

48:57

exists, frankly, at all, is to allow for

48:59

that kind of, you know, pressless exchange that

49:01

you can guarantee is going to work. Yeah.

49:04

What is coming in the future of Soul

49:06

Forge fusion? What are things that we haven't

49:08

gotten yet that we can be excited about?

49:10

Yeah, so there's a lot of features that

49:12

we're working on building out. Right now we

49:14

run tournaments through our discord. You can find

49:16

event at saltfortunes.com and just click on events

49:18

to find them. But we run them kind

49:21

of like traditional DCG tournaments. You got to,

49:23

okay, it's happening on Saturday, you sign up,

49:25

we give you pairings, you find your opponent,

49:27

you match up in the app and you

49:29

play, right, as well as of course tabletop

49:31

events like we're doing at packs and packs

49:33

and plug. We're building an in an in

49:35

an in an in app tournament system.

49:38

so that you'll actually

49:40

just be able to to

49:42

pair and do more more like

49:44

you do in Hearthstone things

49:46

like that. like that. We want

49:48

we have we called

49:50

phantom decks in the

49:52

system. in the month we

49:55

give you month we free

49:57

phantom decks that last

49:59

for 30 days for 30

50:01

you can use a use

50:03

a potion to make

50:05

them permanent or else

50:07

they disappear. or also We

50:09

have other ways for

50:12

you to earn those

50:14

things. you to earn those things. And

50:16

of the things we're

50:18

doing things think our is I think

50:20

our I I don't think we've actually announced this

50:22

yet, but whatever, I'll share it, is that we'll

50:24

do share it, is that we'll do some events

50:26

and phantom tournaments, so that even if

50:28

somebody has that even infinite collection compared to

50:30

you, they can't use their collection. They've

50:33

got to only use what and got earned

50:35

over the course of that month or

50:37

whatever. earned And so that creates a fun

50:39

month or -ish so that environment and tournament, which

50:41

I think is gonna be really fun. type

50:43

We're working on building out I think is going

50:46

to be really fun. actually have the game available

50:48

on mobile. out. We're working on a there's a lot

50:50

of like polish features There's a lot of

50:52

like Polish features new cars, things, obviously new new

50:54

new content, new campaigns. I mentioned, the working

50:56

on the, as I mentioned, the community

50:58

governance feature sole forge if you hold the the

51:00

rights to vote on you'll have the rights to

51:02

vote on we what types of tournaments

51:04

we some what types of some new features

51:06

and prioritizing different features. really what I'm

51:08

really excited about. Because again, I just

51:11

think like that. that. Yeah, we've always

51:13

tried to be really good about being with the

51:15

community the community the and but often it's a but

51:17

few loud voices that participate at all there.

51:19

all there. think having something where it's like, look,

51:21

where it's like, in the game has an opportunity

51:23

to have a voice the game has an the game,

51:25

and that's something I really hope to have

51:27

ready. something I really hope then we're

51:29

going to be launching we're of to be launching

51:31

kind of a seasonal path of kind of mastery track. features

51:33

where you can earn a bunch of

51:35

stuff stuff and other people other people and leaderboards

51:38

tons of cool stuff that's on of tons

51:40

of And again, that's on the excited about

51:42

the community governance again that the I'm core of

51:44

the game exists now. And now when

51:46

I'm trying to decide, we the hard of the

51:48

What's more important? now and now when I'm Mobile is hard

51:50

you know, having another campaign launch. Or,

51:52

you know, there's all these different things

51:54

or you know, focusing on better graphics launch or

51:57

you know stuff all to be focusing on. should

51:59

we that focusing on better? I want players to

52:01

be able to weigh in and help

52:03

us prioritize. So I'm excited about that

52:05

and kind of collaborating on the road

52:07

ahead, which today anybody can do by

52:09

just joining our discord. You could find

52:11

those links from stumbly.com that'll take you

52:13

there. And then hopefully the near future

52:16

players will be able to have like

52:18

a real voting rights and opportunity in

52:20

that. A lot of cool things here.

52:22

As a last question, our listeners are

52:24

digital, tabletop, role-playing, all different levels of

52:26

experience. What's a piece of advice from

52:28

your design practice you'd like to offer

52:30

to our community to help make their

52:32

daily design better? Yeah, so there's a

52:34

lot to unpack here. As I think

52:37

I've mentioned last time, right? I wrote

52:39

a book on game design called Think

52:41

of Game Designer. I have my own

52:43

podcast that's totally, obviously, totally free where

52:45

I talk to the best people in

52:47

the industry about design. So, you know,

52:49

I've tried to put out as much

52:51

useful information as possible that people can

52:53

access for free. I have a sub

52:55

stack, Justin Gary Designs.com, will take you

52:57

there, where I write, if it's every

53:00

other week, I'll write an article, I'll

53:02

write an article, I'll write an article

53:04

about it. But I recently gave a

53:06

talk at GenCon where I tried to

53:08

distill all of that into something that

53:10

was like very like, you know, what's

53:12

the nugget there. And so I would

53:14

say that there's, there's, the process of

53:16

game design is one of constant failure.

53:18

Right. You are constantly trying stuff that

53:21

doesn't work. And so what I call

53:23

the core design loop where you move

53:25

from whatever your inspiration is to creating

53:27

your parameters in the frame around what

53:29

you're building to brainstorming ideas to prototyping

53:31

those ideas to testing them to then

53:33

iterating is a very psychologically painful thing.

53:35

So while I can give you lots

53:37

of tactics and tick tips and little

53:39

mechanics and player incentives and all that

53:42

kinds of stuff as goals, the real

53:44

hard part of design is the. emotional

53:46

part of how do you guard your

53:48

ego against that constant failure and feedback

53:50

cycle in a way that lets you

53:52

see the truth behind it that it's

53:54

not you that's failing it's the game

53:56

it's the mechanic it's a thing it's

53:58

an opportunity to learn and then take

54:00

that opportunity to learn and efficiently bring

54:02

it back into the system to be

54:05

able to both improve your game and

54:07

improve your own abilities. And so I

54:09

think that I advise people like, don't

54:11

get discouraged, right? Like I, it took

54:13

me a very long time to find

54:15

this path for myself, I went to

54:17

law school, I didn't think I was

54:19

gonna, I had no sense that I

54:21

was a creative person at all, I

54:23

had to really break down this whole

54:26

thing very analytically, and it, and the

54:28

step by step instructions of how design

54:30

games are not hard, everybody can do

54:32

it. that the practices and the kind

54:34

of internal strengths to realize that like

54:36

failure is part of it. I fail

54:38

all the time too. I've been doing

54:40

this 25 years. And so, you know,

54:42

keep up, keep that spirit up, do

54:44

what you need to do to keep

54:46

your motivation, find a great community that

54:49

supports you, and keep doing it because

54:51

if you're passionate about it, if you

54:53

love it, then success is not making

54:55

a million dollars on your game. Success

54:57

is actually making games that you love

54:59

that can bring joy to the people

55:01

around you. That's what success looks like.

55:03

That's amazing advice. Justin, thank you so

55:05

much for being on. Thank you. My

55:07

pleasure. Thanks for joining us on the

55:10

Game Design Roundtable. Our guest this week

55:12

was Justin Gary. You can find him

55:14

at Justin Gary.com or his games are

55:16

at Stoneblade.com. If you enjoy the show

55:18

and want to give us a bit

55:20

of assistance, consider heading over to patron.com

55:22

and searching for TGDRT. That's the Game

55:24

Design Round table and joining our patron

55:26

community. we appreciate your

55:28

support. In addition to checking out

55:31

our patron, visit our website at

55:33

tgd rt.com where you can connect

55:35

to our discord server, the show's

55:37

X account, or to the podcast

55:40

service where you'd most like to

55:42

subscribe. I'm Dirk Neimaner and I

55:44

am on X at D Neimanier.

55:47

My co-host is David Heron. He's

55:49

at David V. Heron. Our producer

55:51

is Cody Heril. He's at Cody

55:53

J. The show's editor is Avery

55:56

Paiaz. Who is at Paradox paradoxicidox.

55:58

Thanks and until next time

56:00

Design well.