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recent episodes actually sat down

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co-founder of a dream defenders musician

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and poet patti smith and environmental

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1:09

why are bodies

1:12

so for it

1:17

i mean the

1:20

i'm yours prevents conversation

1:32

naughty and other per he's sweet

1:36

, have a clear zone or

1:39

their back home and maria machado the collection

1:41

some out into the needs of and

1:43

when a finely and

1:46

sure you believe in this sub

1:48

lease between literary

1:51

accent and ferried hills

1:53

and clear centers the and

1:55

a context then i think

1:58

the same as far as

2:04

some of them are the kind of for stories

2:07

you tell around the fire at sleepily shivering

2:10

delicious the over years moyes

2:13

some are horrifying the way

2:15

fairy tales are horrifying own

2:17

grievance and rose the warrens and broken

2:19

glass

2:22

one of them is just a long list of law and

2:24

order as the u episodes and is horrifying

2:33

what brings together the stories

2:36

as her body and other parties is

2:38

no way they talk out

2:42

meet stories i less

2:46

however i'm really embarrassed

2:49

in one story a woman can't

2:51

get her otherwise devoted husband to

2:53

stop fixating on the within around

2:55

her neck and what lies underneath

2:58

it in another a

3:00

woman goes to bury a trick surgery only

3:02

to be hunted by her locked in

3:05

a third a woman living through the apocalypse

3:07

goes through a mental list of her

3:09

sexual encounters this

3:12

is a book of horror stories of

3:15

out bodies and specifically

3:17

about women's it

3:20

her body and other parties has a thesis

3:22

statement the thesis statement is living

3:24

in the world in a woman's booty

3:28

horrifying experience i

3:32

wanted to ask over there

3:33

maria machado more about that idea

3:36

and , also

3:38

to telling stories about his

3:41

or her right the

3:45

that kind of sucks conversations is achieving

3:47

of of the subway that that before a

3:49

virtual audio

3:53

herman thank you so much for being here

3:55

using for having me is still able

3:57

to start in with the title there a

4:00

lot of layers in the for his her

4:02

body and other parties so what needs remember

4:04

oh my goodness well i mean

4:06

when i was beginning the process of writing this

4:08

book a very long

4:09

ago i remember having this moving

4:12

while ago you know what i call it and it

4:14

and of mine was telling me oh you know it's collections

4:16

usually just pick for the story title

4:18

the colonel except sort of the whole vibe of

4:20

burke and new sort of then

4:23

good title from the collection

4:25

sit down and so i

4:27

began the saying which now to me a second nature

4:29

but this is like me learning how to do it which is like

4:31

thing in matching words six up

4:34

from various titles like see how they fit together

4:36

and together and some point put together

4:39

real women have bodies and

4:41

difficult the parties which is obviously two titles

4:43

the stories and then as point

4:46

i , like oh her body another party

4:48

is he better than like some other variation

4:51

of that enables it was thinking was lot about

4:53

i really loved had saying sorry of your life

4:55

and others the of that's really special

4:57

to me and that has as i

4:59

something at the end where it's it's like story

5:01

of your life which is the title of a story in the book

5:04

and then and others and the and others as like

5:06

and other stories that also and other lives

5:08

and so there's like a weird kind of game

5:10

being played there and i sort of like that game

5:13

and so that was also part of the process of

5:15

doing that so are now and then once i had

5:17

it fell right then it never changed

5:19

even though i like added an assassin were jealous of of

5:21

the buck like that titles sort of stuck

5:24

and i think one of the things that make sale work

5:26

so well is there a lot of different emotional

5:29

toll is going on in this but there's

5:31

a lot of horror and comedy

5:33

am sex and beautiful

5:36

moments and and really upsetting

5:38

moments to it so i'm wondering

5:40

with all of these different a muslim residences

5:43

whether you think of the streets and

5:45

this book as belonging to any particular

5:48

genre specifically

5:50

i mean i feel they belong to a

5:52

bunch of different genres and as think the book that

5:54

maybe have a whole i

5:57

would say of a literary section the league

6:00

the ring on her best way to them in the book

6:02

as a whole is sort of concerned with sort

6:04

of psychology and sort of very like

6:06

certain level split trees down to

6:08

us or seconds like a granular sort of language

6:11

level answer the music of language

6:13

and so i guess i would say the book itself as literary

6:15

accents the individual stories occupy

6:17

of hundred different genres like the science fiction story

6:20

which is inventory their sort

6:22

of women or fantasy stories of various

6:24

kinds and i'd say more explicit

6:26

kind of horror so i think of them just

6:28

depends on like where you from zoom in and out

6:30

of the projects my favorite writers like a

6:32

writer favorite really love is kelly lanka who like

6:35

similarly if you were like what's on the

6:37

she right and it's like lot

6:39

about six settling all at once

6:41

and is sort of borrowing freely from various

6:43

buttons and soon

6:44

the that sort of process is the most interesting

6:47

part so yeah sort of hard to sites and i've

6:49

had people like i had someone come up smear that

6:51

once and be likes to people on their own we both

6:53

work at a bookstore together and we'll

6:54

keep arguing about like were like

6:57

, the store and i was like i can

6:59

obviously You

7:02

can figure that out for yourself. But, yeah, I mean,

7:04

I think I

7:05

have seen it in like a different places in bookstores as

7:07

well. So, it's interesting that process

7:09

all really, where does it end up? I

7:11

seen it in like horror science-fiction fantasy.

7:13

Sort of like, a more, like explicitly servers on

7:15

reception. I've seen it in general fiction. So

7:18

it just really depends on who's

7:20

talking, like

7:22

Barnes and Noble

7:24

and see what they're doing. These

7:33

like small staff, or like I

7:35

have a lot of control over with the store looks and Like

7:37

it is really interesting to see like where they decide to place

7:39

it. You

7:40

do the thing. When you go to a bookstore, checking to see

7:42

if they have your book.

7:43

So always any ,

7:45

who does it does that affect so so

7:47

about weird about a little boys it's like it's

7:50

going to casually both the over here the and over

7:53

again scheme whenever i'm a human being what

7:55

a human can you ask for me the

7:57

even critics do that if i see of the therapy

8:00

like flipping it open and being like lose my

8:02

blair as okay

8:03

the i'd be like you would anyone is that they don't do that of like

8:06

yes it's shaft

8:07

though it has this collection is

8:09

moving through so many different tones and genres

8:11

it's interesting to me that it does still

8:13

feel really cohesive so

8:15

i'm wondering what you think that the as being

8:18

the connective tissue you for the door

8:21

when i was working on this path and me to sing

8:23

that's really important to me about a collection

8:25

is or does have a kind of organizing intelligent

8:27

then i think there are people who have different philosophies

8:30

about how to put together a short story collection

8:32

and sometimes it'll just be like it's them

8:34

the reason x number of stories one has written

8:36

but for me while i was putting together

8:39

i wrote many other stories that are not in the questions

8:42

because they didn't quite sit totally

8:44

awesome adequately i remember like when i sold

8:46

the book to gray wolf matters saying i love like i

8:48

really like slender muscular collection

8:50

analysis yes because only eight stories

8:53

i mean to them are fairly long the still write a play

8:55

area i liked the idea of the stories

8:57

having this conversation with each other

8:59

about bodies and embodiment

9:02

and gender and sexuality and

9:04

illness

9:05

then sacks and like i

9:07

wanted those me the seems that we kind of just

9:09

around and so the i would sort

9:11

of like write a new story for something

9:13

or for myself and then i'd look at your doesn't belong

9:15

in the class and that yes

9:17

now i wanted me to the stories

9:19

were like in conversation with each other the book

9:21

had the sense of even though they were short

9:23

story than they weren't the same with universe or anything

9:25

they had sort of a central i'm sixty says are

9:28

advancing a kind of argument or conversation

9:30

when illumina little bit now on that

9:33

hundred season and where it applies

9:35

to the body and specifically the

9:37

bodies of women and hear people

9:39

which arts so much at the center of this

9:41

collection so what draws you to rating

9:43

about bodies in this kind of livable

9:47

i mean is user

9:49

enters the lightsaber this book prieto bed

9:51

and now like you know the

9:53

person i'm not a comment that like in the years

9:56

after covered it began existing sinking

9:58

so much about bodies and the gillette he

10:01

you know thing up pleasure and also like human

10:03

side sense it's what it means when you're

10:05

alone and when it means

10:07

it apart from other people but means to be ill

10:09

what it means to be scared for your life i mean these are

10:11

all for of modes of and

10:14

body and and so in a lot of ways

10:16

i think these stories he

10:19

meant to think about what it

10:21

means to be on the ends of the at

10:23

whether it's the only editors of one sender

10:26

like being a woman or

10:28

in terms of sex or like other ways

10:31

and that was people are women

10:33

all and ways in which people sort of exist on

10:35

the periphery or exist on the margins

10:38

are exists some thresholds and the

10:40

ways in which like a genre is kind of enhancer

10:42

underline the effects of of

10:44

writing about that so that was kind of early

10:46

on a single way that i said when i first

10:48

began writing i think of me

10:50

and like didn't need to the i wrote but

10:53

long before i ever wrote a story that like i would

10:55

ever have published a book but like there

10:57

was a time that which there was a switch were suddenly i

10:59

began to like figure out what i wanted to write about

11:01

how and a lot of the had to do with like i

11:03

want to write about the thing that are really

11:05

important to me interesting to me leave questions

11:07

about about him and genders address sacks

11:10

and how they want to do it i want to use sort of genre

11:12

as a tool to like think

11:15

about the slim analogy and horror

11:17

as well as i feel like in the way the

11:19

genre are perfectly situated

11:21

to like begin to ask these questions

11:23

when it's a horror story horror story be

11:26

in a woman's body in the us and

11:28

twenty twenty two or whatever it's a horror

11:30

story to be a person who

11:33

is queer who like practices serve non

11:35

normative sexual practices

11:37

are like gender practices riots and or it

11:39

and these are they suggest chronically ill

11:41

person so like those identity

11:43

is are perfectly situated said that

11:46

poor little fantasy or whatever

11:49

also so moving

11:51

and a lot of the is that in this book a

11:54

lot of it is organized around the

11:56

violence and the horror at that can be inflicted

11:59

on bodies and then

12:00

the olivia's really enjoy full embodiment

12:02

of sex and food and

12:04

says there's so how did you think about

12:06

moving back and forth between those your muscles

12:08

pieces

12:10

i wish i had a super good and says that and the answer

12:12

wasn't simply that i am his son both

12:14

of those things and things

12:17

that appear to my book it's funny

12:19

because they think i have very serious perspective

12:21

on the world and i think this book have a lot of really dark

12:24

things to say about all

12:26

these subjects i keep repeating and allows that

12:28

was that lot of you the god but i also

12:30

think that for all the darkness

12:33

ingram this of the world i consider myself pretty much a pessimist

12:35

about the world in general but

12:37

, there's so much joy in it i wanted

12:40

some of the sex to be like joyful and pleasurable and

12:42

hot and i wanted food to be like

12:44

a sort of vividly describes source of pleasure

12:47

that is actually thing that thing think a lot about mythic very

12:49

important to me

12:50

i want to move a little bit away now from

12:52

the abstract themes and more into the details

12:55

of the stories so in

12:57

the husband states that's the

12:59

story that be held

13:01

these to keep story of the girl at the green ribbon

13:03

around her neck by your version

13:05

six it's title from this

13:08

practice of doctors adding an

13:10

extra states when repairing

13:12

that on herring after childbirth in order to

13:15

the buddha be increase the pressure as the

13:18

has been during sex so that is

13:20

an idea that appears in the story but just as a paragraph

13:22

or two kind of as an aside so why did you wanna

13:24

meet that the title search yeah

13:27

so and sort of a practice

13:29

i think that a very important to me which

13:32

i did not originate this actually came from

13:34

an essay that i run off the by telling them and telling

13:36

twice if you haven't read telling you must say

13:38

is true that my favorite authors in the world sure

13:41

and a really great essay a million years ago

13:43

that was on i will say i owe nine that

13:45

i've read so many times and she talks

13:49

you're eating a relationship with your s p

13:51

are silent partner was basically she means your subconscious

13:53

like those sort of creative part of you that like

13:55

you access to make art and many

13:58

ideas that she put forth in this essay

14:00

you serve creating almost

14:02

like a reward system fair the current

14:04

it's like when you get an idea you like made

14:06

it out yeah we are you sort of honor the

14:08

idea that you've been given by this create a part

14:10

of your brain and also like doing things like

14:12

cultivating and creating lists where you like to

14:14

keep track of like your ideas and keep track session

14:17

looking track of like the things that you're really focus

14:19

on as a wave on the focusing

14:21

your creative energy and like getting ideas

14:24

i have sort of like built on this over the years that is actually

14:26

been like one of them something that i've read my entire

14:28

life about screen of crap

14:30

and as a result i have more story

14:33

ideas

14:33

right in my entire lifetime like i will be long

14:36

dead before i would ever get even through a sense

14:38

of the list that i only have now and i'm like forty five

14:40

years old rights i've been running professionally for

14:42

like ten years at this point though

14:45

there's something how creating these

14:47

lessons very very helpful and so a thing that

14:49

happened to me was that when i was in grad

14:51

school reading this essay and as beginning sort

14:53

of the work than a doing now as

14:56

it had an aunt put up to to the care for

14:58

her but it's a relative of mine

15:00

what the time with nobody way a nurse

15:03

and she just in passing mentioned to

15:05

me this feature was your best has been

15:07

sort of make this a joke in a different for

15:09

they caught like a husband stitch or daddy statues

15:11

of even now like

15:14

way aware of what like it isn't that

15:16

he was even clear the time to me if it was a thing

15:18

that actually happened or for was like a joke

15:20

that men made in the

15:22

delivery room it's but either way it was

15:25

horrifying and i like

15:27

i do whatever i experience whatever horrifying they

15:29

have like whoa as so sick write it down

15:31

and then

15:32

the with the idea where fine with the phrase the

15:34

has been stitch was so

15:36

provocative and specific and

15:38

so i was like

15:39

the great title for sometime it's as

15:41

a year later when i was writing the story or

15:43

i began to write the story actually

15:45

had like the ideas that under becoming

15:48

the story kind of written out in various ways and is less

15:50

of an oil really want to write a story about server

15:52

midcentury housewife who were like sacks like really

15:54

want to write a story thinking about urban

15:56

legend everyone think about the sort of the girls ribbon

15:58

on her neck which is like a normal

16:02

schwartzberg some really stuck with the

16:04

when i had this phrase the husband's that's just

16:06

like a written on with a list of potential titles

16:08

of which i am have a very long less since

16:10

i began to have who together and it occurred

16:13

under this title

16:14

sort of the only title that sell crack because

16:16

it's like kind of an urban legend in israel

16:19

it's not real he will ask

16:21

for it's unclear if it's a thing or it's not

16:23

saying it's and so just felt like perfect

16:25

kind of titled the go with this story

16:27

which is similarly about these like ambiguous

16:30

moods and storytelling and of reality

16:33

and of gendered expectations and

16:35

male entitlement things like that and so

16:37

usually once i'm elated upon the correct title

16:39

that was there and i am actually unusual

16:42

for me to struggle with a title some people

16:44

find idling horribly difficult

16:46

i am the opposite very annoyingly i find

16:48

title a delightful and quite easy what's

16:51

i like get the right title i'm done

16:53

that makes sense to me because your

16:55

rating is so totally specific

16:57

and titles are so much about creating

16:59

that sony a very compact sense

17:01

and inviting the reader and like this is how you're

17:03

going to feel reading this the

17:06

i guess i never even thought why i'm good at

17:08

it wasn't as a sort of sensibility

17:10

i have read things out loud to myself

17:12

like sewage my processes like reading out loud what i've

17:14

written and adjusting accordingly

17:17

and hearing it and like a lot of that process

17:19

as me hearing is saying any like sits my

17:21

ear right or wrong

17:24

and i look adjust accordingly such as tightly as

17:26

has somewhere with as your title and i'm like

17:28

that's good i was reason they were friends

17:30

recent way i cannot coming back and i was like

17:32

i really don't care for the title and i could not tell

17:34

you why i can like wrath of some ideas

17:36

but i'm just telling you the tail is like sitting right you're wrong

17:39

of fielding for activates just a weird

17:41

deaf

17:42

workers nearing the think

17:44

that's wrong with that is very important

17:47

even if you don't know if the thing it a

17:57

he deserved week it when me

18:02

and i'll , months and in

18:06

life doreen from and ran the to those

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basics

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that i know that you said that

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you wrote that one after you

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finish the whole so while you are sick one time

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so would think it is advance

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as the you that we as it's absurd seem

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to find so compelling

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that it's become such an institution

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such a good question because it is i guess

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i used to say it's the only ongoing

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law and order franchise was the wraith one that's

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no longer true because now there's organized crime

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which is fucking terrible terrible show but i will watch

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the color really so

21:16

much like weird it's weird for lunch

21:18

isn't anyway the show the best

21:20

these around for so long and has generated

21:22

such like an intense cultural following swimmer

21:24

the show has become absolute garbage

21:27

but like people still want to i saw lots at even

21:29

though i hate it and we watch the early seasons

21:31

actually still sort of like a comfort zone for

21:33

me and the early seasons of us

21:35

or like a real banger is like kinda problematic as

21:37

hell but there are some really fucking good episodes

21:39

of lover we want or as ceo is

21:41

another really good episode the law and order but

21:44

anyway i mean the few into that has a whole circle

21:46

job as a sense in one of it as when it was

21:48

a libya and elliot they did

21:50

have an incredible i regret the whole piece with items

21:52

that a clever like have feelings for their chemistry

21:55

but like their chemistry is really powerful

21:57

does as after which is like but as

21:59

i do like them rating of us or whatever it's likely to

22:01

some really good energy and i think people really responded

22:04

to that energy and i think everyone kind

22:06

of like the listing on my the smoke

22:08

and fumes of that good well generated

22:10

by the energy with my personal flossie

22:12

what a runner i think about television but i

22:14

think that also like we're

22:16

such weird conflicting ideas about sexual

22:18

violence am i to know many sort

22:21

of things that sexual violence i

22:23

think sort of ebb and flow with time and

22:25

so like episodes of the shows are of aids well

22:28

or bad lee depending on our

22:30

ideas about

22:31

like a certain subject like campus rape for

22:33

example have like chains are says dead and

22:36

so what

22:37

the thing now is a suit the show has become so

22:39

focused on

22:40

the timeliness and like to say will classics

22:42

that just sounds like camps

22:44

the before he actually was a barometer

22:46

of our feelings and thoughts about sexual

22:48

violence and notes trying to be that barometer

22:51

which is not the same thing and i think

22:52

fucking it up very badly and stupidly

22:54

and stupid ways but i think for a while it actually was

22:57

as a really interesting like singer on the pulse

22:59

of like how we conceive of

23:01

the narrative about different kinds of sexual violence

23:04

and domestic violence and things like that

23:07

what were the parts of that show that you really you

23:09

wanted to play with in this story

23:12

what were the ideas you wanted to kind of roll

23:14

around and

23:16

i mean again i wish i could give you like a super

23:18

slick a sophisticated answer

23:21

is

23:21

the food because i didn't rates of story right

23:24

after i was there when i was sick before

23:26

he went to grad school i got swine flu last pandemic

23:29

was like as deeply as subway sicker than i was when i

23:31

had to have like i have like have fever

23:33

that i like last time like and

23:35

like living alone and like netflix

23:37

, done that saying words shows will just keep playing

23:39

so i had like turned on sv when i was still kind

23:41

of contrast and i'm like to last days

23:43

and i'm like it was still playing when i kind of came to

23:46

a load of my i just haven't

23:48

been in the hospital whatever hospital was very scary but there

23:50

was something about that sort of like when

23:53

she is not the the fever dream of like

23:55

experiencing show which is already

23:57

like so intense like through this veil of

24:00

mr remember him but also once i began

24:02

writing at and began to think about

24:04

what i was doing anything a lot about

24:07

the contract have been doing a casino

24:09

the concept of light

24:11

eating in a lot of violence

24:13

or like sexual violence a kind of all one image

24:15

what it meant that the show the a hold on as

24:18

and what a means to my participate in

24:21

these sort of

24:22

image of the narrative the sexual violence by watching

24:25

the show so i don't know it just

24:27

became like

24:28

the part of the story were like one of the characters

24:30

i remember who's so much

24:33

as and said like looks out the

24:35

reader and as like as like want to do this anymore like

24:37

you know they wanted there to be like moments of sir self

24:39

referential the old were like

24:41

we sort of got a sense of the characters are like trying

24:44

to resist the this sort of endless

24:46

cycle and it's funny cause i wrote it

24:49

and it's only twelve seasons analysis for what

24:51

like twenty four or something like double the last episode

24:53

service so late it's

24:56

funny to me but as you really love that story

24:58

i feel like it's an interesting barometer i see people

25:00

would love it or the heat as it's like a very divisive

25:02

story in that clarkson

25:04

i can confirm one of the reasons

25:07

that i wanted to do the but this month

25:09

was that i knew someone who did not like

25:11

that story and i was like i'm gonna do

25:13

this just to talk about how that it

25:15

is i

25:17

need i will say that it is such a

25:19

specific story i

25:21

could give my best like i'm

25:23

we believe that are like all the stories and that collection

25:26

of others or than ever written ever written it's like

25:28

one of the top stories but yeah

25:30

a lot of people really heater or don't know how to read

25:33

ehrlich find a very stressful are like confusing

25:35

and i i'm an athlete and legs i

25:37

actually got funding to say

25:40

the sap in every year i would apply

25:42

for the source of at this

25:44

i would get feedback like another see doctor the

25:46

jurors and wonder would be

25:48

like a heated that star a i hated

25:50

it so as soon as the way i just took

25:52

the novella out about i applied for fighting

25:54

again and i got the funding and like

25:58

i love the story i don't care at

26:01

victorian grade and i'm

26:03

just gonna leave until it

26:04

i think there's a specific skill to reading

26:06

that story and like being seats

26:09

in not as pop culture but like of the troops

26:11

of that particular his honor that i

26:13

think not everyone necessarily a has

26:15

been if you're in it

26:17

right now i'm simon it had

26:19

also about how a lot of these stories

26:22

are very preoccupied with the

26:24

, of women getting smaller so

26:26

barely paid swear at the

26:28

narrator gets very artistic surgery

26:31

and it's haunted by her last fat fat

26:33

real women have bodies were there is this

26:36

epidemic that causes women's bodies to

26:38

fade away and so how do you think about

26:41

laying bare the horror of this

26:43

idea shrinking yourself

26:45

for the world

26:48

yeah i mean you're right the both of stories

26:50

have that concern i mean eaten by

26:52

the story that i a sort of needed

26:54

to right in order to write

26:57

the essay have an essay that wrote right

26:59

after i finished a bias the

27:01

trashy to spokane which cannot wear an answer

27:04

as well as well as as like

27:08

the and it would make an essay that either trying to write for years

27:11

that i wonder i'd an essay about sadness and

27:13

i was really struggling because i couldn't quite figure

27:15

out like the your nonfiction us hard

27:17

to the really trying to figure out what you think

27:21

it's , with the biggest sound i haven't been sick since

27:23

it's even satellite for a lot of sense of

27:25

merrily it kind of like all works itself out but

27:27

like nine six new products on a know at least

27:29

have a son and so i rode a

27:32

bicycle rode a that like six and would help me kind of

27:34

get closer to some idea about what

27:36

i thought about it and in that story

27:38

the idea that we hit our bodies

27:41

so much we feed them so badly if

27:43

not all they do for us as i care for us and sunseri

27:46

are ungrateful brains of this horrible world's

27:48

ray and we just like punish them empire some

27:50

summer slam to death

27:52

and so that was the story that i wrote

27:54

and then eventually when i wrote the sai sort of incorporated

27:56

that idea like played on it and

27:58

an ulcer was thinking very the really meant to some some like

28:01

the fat mind or the fat body

28:04

and what it means to like this place more errant

28:06

heat up more space that let me tell that teaching

28:08

of citizen like a metaphorical sense but like a fat person

28:11

takes up literally more space and a thin person

28:13

and like is an audacious the

28:16

up there is an audacious way of existing that for

28:18

a fat person that like is different than us and percent

28:20

whatever their roles to personalities are and

28:22

so with a good idea that

28:25

has been sort of exploring for many years and we

28:27

trying to sort of articulate my thoughts about

28:29

this through six hundred on sex and etc

28:31

roman of bodies eventually interesting

28:34

and it's wouldn't older story nicholson

28:36

i can tell the story and the but if you

28:38

want that story in some ways as like a story of

28:40

a much younger writer i may i wrote the stories in

28:42

this book when i was twenty three twenty

28:44

four twenty five and now i'm almost thirty seven

28:47

thirty six the summer and so like it

28:49

is a book of a decision six

28:50

then i think the younger right on adding a writer

28:53

who was sort of beginning to have thoughts about invisibility

28:56

and of the way that we're

28:58

sort of suicide it only being

29:00

pushed into these margins are edges

29:03

but as you like it's i'm sick a little less sophisticated

29:05

than sophisticated would like

29:06

that now you know in my much later

29:08

years and yeah i see like a

29:10

bite to me is the more killing i feel

29:12

like that idea like thinking about sadness in that

29:15

way as a new or or way of thinking and

29:17

i keep thinking about like and with those are more discipline

29:19

of like sat literary criticism for circus

29:21

actually like interesting sort of angle a way

29:23

of thinking about

29:25

writing and language and body isn't it aims

29:27

beginning sort of thinking about that a lot

29:30

oh that's very interesting i know disability

29:32

a kid is like a newish them

29:34

sandra

29:35

totally and i do nothing related

29:37

but not point to say out i obviously

29:40

be like comparable area in

29:43

man

29:53

and he'd won last week break when we

29:55

come back of the criminally and

29:57

much subtle on the and city mrs of

29:59

woman another intriguing

30:19

everyone i'm heather cox richardson

30:21

and and you'll and freeman where the coldness

30:23

of now in that weekly history

30:25

podcast from cafe and the box

30:27

media podcast network we just

30:29

drop the final food in our three

30:32

part series on free speech in america

30:34

from wrapping of the first amendment to the

30:36

current controversies over republican

30:38

hostility the press our

30:40

third installment focuses on so called cancel

30:43

culture a new social

30:45

phenomenon to what degree does it

30:47

evolve accountability and

30:49

what drives americans to stand up against

30:51

objectionable statements we look

30:53

at some past popular reckonings with

30:55

can the speech from thomas hutchinson

30:58

fall from grace during the revolutionary period

31:00

the the debate over a musical group kind

31:03

of the iraq war in two thousand and

31:05

three this into the whole series

31:07

and check out other episodes

31:09

which explore crucial issues abortion

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31:14

just search now and then in your favorite podcast

31:16

app and look out for new epa every

31:18

tuesday

31:23

import next year often told not get lost

31:25

in the weeds but we love the

31:27

we did

31:30

your the we've we help break down where politics

31:33

becomes policy because policy will

31:35

not always the same me and dazzling part

31:37

of politics and , the really

31:39

important stuff happens happens

31:41

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31:44

or how can we streamline unemployment benefits to

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31:48

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31:50

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31:52

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31:55

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32:00

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32:18

forever you get your partner

32:33

the turning it over to

32:35

audience essence now i wanna start with this question

32:37

of from the kill us she asked how

32:40

do you think lieutenant ad and it's ideas

32:42

of spirituality and reality as well

32:44

as beauty and femininity it's influence

32:46

the sort of luminal feelings around the and happiness

32:48

of woman oh

32:51

god ok i'm

32:52

dried you honor to that question which i think is really

32:55

amazing and i have

32:56

them feel like cooperate the answer

32:58

is i mean the think that thinking

33:00

about

33:01

woman who had femininity are good ideas of like

33:03

gender presentation in the context of of that when

33:05

trying to sound like a thesis of

33:08

like i'm not even remotely from parents that sort of

33:10

address or talk about an interesting question

33:12

is and

33:13

the think that there is something really

33:15

sort of specifically weird

33:18

about the fact that we have i created these sort

33:20

of narratives and structures around

33:22

gender and i feel there's actually a really

33:25

interesting way to like a lean into like i guess

33:27

he caught like the spam uncanny was like

33:29

i bow december take and i'm like oh

33:31

thank god i would be like all paper about bad

33:33

assets but like the idea almost that like

33:36

it's so strange how we thought and conceived

33:38

of gender and this way and

33:40

so there is almost like of weirdness

33:43

to is that you could

33:44

recently and you and now i was

33:46

a gift that literally all night

33:49

so they can mckellen it's a wonderful class and

33:51

sam uncanny so that the

33:53

copyright that

33:54

the so we have quite a few questions about

33:57

be planned tv series at a piece

34:00

then you have any news on where that is

34:02

well i can tell you that the saying that

34:04

i feel like people of know about the

34:06

anthology saying is

34:08

no longer a thing

34:10

in a world of hollywood ncb as a very strange

34:12

and sort of ever moving and ever changing and

34:15

i can't give logical but logical can see that there's that new

34:17

stuff happening with happening

34:19

the cover exciting i don't think it's gonna

34:21

be an anthology structure

34:23

the way the we sort of initially conceived as it

34:25

is because that is a structure that

34:27

isn't really a manner they do still make some

34:29

kind of but i just like it's the genre

34:31

reform that like isn't really taking off any

34:33

with a while and , appalling

34:36

will not be in that structure bites

34:38

, it's over he saidi may love the idea of my work

34:41

being adopted and like i think adaptation

34:43

in general is really interesting and so

34:45

i just yeah

34:46

murphy are you involved in the creative

34:49

part of the at a decent at all no

34:51

i'm working on my own projects what else can we

34:53

talk about yeah but for like the her minor the parties

34:55

like i'm just survive

34:57

so can a different have done so many things

34:59

that like i can we do my own products because i am

35:02

time but i it's a always servers and

35:04

consultant the like a pleasant sort of reading

35:06

we blow working on and like i know who's writing that

35:08

adaptation

35:09

my work and i am determined like like

35:12

the scraps my can just see the up and

35:14

but i also like stepping back i mean it's also like it's

35:16

not my it's like they're saying you know i i'm

35:19

a big believer in like when someone's adapting your work

35:21

like the would make sure that they're being faithful to like a certain

35:24

like their things and worried about like i

35:26

want my characters to be latino of their

35:28

lives in early i want them to be thought of their fat women

35:30

be queer like i have like thoughts on that but

35:33

like i'm not precious about like other

35:35

stuff in the book like i'm again you want to like mixing

35:37

together or like cut things are changing like

35:39

whenever it's like and out of his and that's like what

35:41

it's for with for make the so interesting the

35:44

very exciting you got a christian

35:46

from anonymous

35:47

they say hello from know lucky with comes in

35:49

in your story mother if you reference trident

35:51

wisconsin to see the jelly man as

35:53

it turned out was dead sorry

35:56

this question isn't deep i'm just so serious

35:58

who is the jelly man know

36:01

why are so you can soften the some pointers so

36:03

since the front of this question is that

36:05

my book have been adapted into like i

36:07

wanna see twenty three language

36:09

someone's where did all of them are black widow and

36:11

every single time as a new

36:13

language i get confused email

36:16

from some poor translator who'd like i

36:18

am google this why did

36:20

the jelly madly data another like hide away

36:22

and i have to be like i'm so sorry to give it is

36:24

like a made up saying it's like invented that

36:27

is true like to say we

36:29

went there to see the jelly man is and more or less meant

36:31

to be kind of whimsical and mcmaster signify

36:34

anything however

36:35

or my mother grew up in wisconsin and

36:37

i spent many summers of my childhood

36:39

in wisconsin my mother some southern wisconsin

36:41

lignin on point

36:43

highlanders like a very small town that is from

36:45

like ants as i got a house in iraq on the time

36:47

of the kinda that means anything to you like a to go there to

36:49

all but they're kinda slow yes

36:51

american gods that kind of made the house in iraq very

36:53

very same as but i spent i've been there

36:55

are dozens of times i miss her success

36:58

the company would you please a lot of

37:00

a like place in my heart and look a lot of

37:02

my memory and when i was a child

37:04

there was a man

37:07

use own this place called the summer kitchen

37:10

which i don't know if it exists anymore because he

37:12

died and pass it on to his sort of adopted

37:14

son the son die and ah yes i

37:16

don't know

37:17

haven't you are but it was literally this a beautiful

37:20

farm at that was sort of like in the area

37:22

they were family friends of my mother's people

37:25

and so every summer we would go visit

37:27

we would like it and it's also rid of spillages

37:29

creates spillages like jams and jellies and

37:32

the man who ran the farm who we really

37:34

loves to the grocery gruff man we like but she was a

37:36

very soft and sweet but like scary which

37:38

but my favorite happen for a second for also see

37:40

would like take us around and show us like the animals

37:43

he had like peacocks and he had all these like animals

37:45

and to take us sinners fruit trees he'll growl

37:48

the fruit on his property and way i guess he was a

37:50

big presence that like the madison farmers market every

37:52

week and like still ,

37:54

like gems to like nancy reagan

37:56

or some anyway to like he was present

37:59

in that community and in that world

38:01

and like we knew him just this way and like a

38:04

saw him like this every summer for the first

38:06

like twenty years of my life

38:08

and so when i was writing that story

38:11

he thought about that and i decide to call him the

38:13

jelly man the family calls him but as the our and

38:16

i started yelling at him that i was like the sad

38:19

because i was actually what happened with at some point i went to go

38:21

see him when i was in grad school and

38:23

michael my mother texting michael were was going

38:25

to choose the key passes and i was like really really

38:28

anyway

38:32

i'm another as me that of more those ever bit like

38:34

you to do it a bit like i promised felt that who the heck's

38:36

the jelly belly

38:37

there is a wonderful story thank you

38:39

for sharing at that actually great the ads to

38:42

list for sending us that sorry

38:44

so i wanted as close as up with just

38:47

one final tests and sort of overarching

38:49

that beams we've been talking about here which is

38:52

the book is so good to add evoking

38:56

the upper and the pleasure of just having

38:58

a body so i guess my big question

39:00

is how do we use six in

39:02

and short stories who have come

39:04

to terms with though a horrible

39:06

and wonderful things about moving through the world

39:08

and art and horrible and wonderful body

39:10

is a hog request sent me

39:13

the my new the answer i would why would i be

39:15

i would just be out accepting my body

39:17

for it's complicated solve i mean i

39:19

for me section of been a way to

39:21

sort of with my mind

39:23

in my body

39:25

but it's happening in very abstract way obviously because

39:27

like the characters of the but the opposite

39:29

there's like a lot of stuff from that book

39:32

from my religion other people's lives like as all fiction

39:34

writers do but then here's another sisters

39:36

are like me explicitly railing days

39:38

or competent than that like mean i was weird

39:40

spot a lot of time like for

39:42

me it's this moment of almost like externalized

39:45

saying that conversation and externalising

39:48

that they were subs with my brain and my body and

39:50

like putting it somewhere else

39:51

i mean to look at it as opposed to it

39:54

happening in here which is normally the building

39:56

been happening here in the story like ads this

39:58

like third see like state

40:00

or something it's actually reading to

40:02

be an experience as well once i suddenly there's

40:04

as way of looking at ads and

40:06

i've actually had legal notable people say to me

40:09

he bites the the queen like kind of

40:11

gotten to really think a lot of stuff

40:13

about

40:14

their body think it's a great story

40:16

about like really what i think it's like happening is like

40:19

it is giving you this the thing that

40:21

you can look at the ceiling you mean that so

40:23

in your head about i'm a i'm a hypochondriac

40:25

so i can literally my had constant my body like

40:27

about what am i feeling and like i'm

40:29

super sensitive like every little experience with

40:31

symptom every non symptom every last breath

40:34

and is aware of and with a very very sort of

40:36

heightened way if you like having

40:38

a piece of writing whether you're writing and or you're reading

40:41

it or like something out externalising in a similar

40:43

like you can get really good advice to a friend

40:45

but you can't give that up by yourself because

40:47

it's like it's helpful to have look like in front

40:49

of you and like out they're the and so

40:51

i feel like yeah i guess

40:53

there's something about that process that lake creates

40:55

, the space and just

40:57

allows the percent of the like externalize

41:00

and would look at it and have a clearer

41:02

relationship was at that's i guess

41:05

it's predecessor

41:09

i think it's a very lovely place trust

41:11

the amount of carbon think you done this is

41:13

illness the or

41:23

that decision to produce i urge

41:25

to need

41:26

our editor is immutable

41:28

so thats attract boyd

41:30

mixed and mastered this episode or

41:32

the music was beams as by the mysterious

41:35

written on that and amber

41:37

haunt the deputy editor the director of

41:44

you know what have no room for improvement

41:46

when you any hear that you are serious know

41:49

what you want more hours and what we could impress

41:54

and if you have any uh-huh and

42:08

brand new