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1:03

how do you raise and man

1:09

i'm sean ailing and i'm your host for

1:12

box

1:22

a few weeks ago we invited an idol

1:25

and black onto the show to

1:27

talk about his latest book a better man

1:29

like as a comedian and

1:31

writer and an actor who you likely

1:33

know from his roles in wet hot american

1:36

summer the state and stella

1:39

his , is an open letter to his son

1:41

and it's the kind of thing only a thoughtful

1:43

comic could write write always

1:46

walking the line between funny and serious

1:49

and it never strays too far from

1:51

it's core purpose which is blacks

1:53

attempt to talk to his son about

1:55

what it means to be a good man in a culture

1:59

that seems very the about masculinity

2:05

michael son was a student at

2:07

elementary school right by sandy

2:09

hook when night massacre happened

2:12

and twenty twelve and

2:14

then there was department shooting and twenty

2:16

eighteen that's when black

2:18

decided to write this book and

2:20

ask why are boys

2:23

committing these acts of violence and

2:26

what her father's of boys supposed

2:28

to do a

2:31

few days before we recorded nineteen

2:33

children and to teachers the

2:36

done down in yet another

2:38

mass shooting by a young man

2:40

in you've all day texas

2:43

there are of course lots

2:46

of practical policy center

2:48

conversation happening now about

2:50

gun control about the second amendment

2:53

about congressional inaction this

2:57

is not one of those instead

3:00

black and a step back and try

3:02

to reflect on a bigger question

3:05

what the hell is going on with young

3:07

men in america

3:12

we obviously deal head on

3:14

with recent tragedy in texas but

3:17

, also talk about our own struggles to

3:19

define masculinity why

3:22

so many american men have such have hard

3:24

time asking for help and how

3:26

we as father's of boys

3:29

the can be better examples for our sons

3:35

michael ian black welcome to the show

3:38

thank you

3:38

though i had an idea of

3:41

what this conversation would be like my

3:44

coffee but

3:46

then a few days ago nineteen

3:48

children in two teachers were

3:51

gun down in yet another school

3:53

shooting and you spend a lot of time at

3:56

the beginning of the bed lingering on this plague

4:00

young boys and mass shootings and here

4:02

we are again this is obviously something

4:05

You thought a about, where's your head right

4:07

now? It what do make of all

4:09

of this at this moment? Well,

4:11

I'm

4:12

not surprised that this happened. I'm

4:14

not surprised there was another

4:17

shooting at an elementary school, just,

4:19

as I wasn't surprised when there was a shooting

4:22

at a grocery store the week before

4:25

and at a church a few days

4:27

for that these events no

4:30

longer surprise me anyway

4:33

hey the point they

4:37

continue to outrage me because

4:42

we're not doing anything

4:44

about it we're debating doors

4:47

today or i'm not but

4:49

at least a significant portion

4:52

of one half or political body

4:54

is i don't feel like doors

4:56

are the problem i feel like i'm okay

4:58

with dollars in fact i'll go even

5:00

further the say the more doors

5:03

the better i'm willing to go

5:05

all in sword doors

5:08

what i'm not willing to do go

5:11

all in war

5:14

done and

5:16

it's kind of insane

5:19

weaponry that we just make available

5:21

to whoever wants it no

5:23

i understand that there are

5:26

certain restrictions

5:28

on quickly acquiring

5:31

weaponry in some parts of the country

5:33

not in texas the government

5:35

to signed the bill few months ago

5:37

saying hey you're eighteen the

5:40

want to buy weapon of war go ahead

5:42

we're not gonna throw up any

5:44

road blocks to impede you progress

5:46

on your journey to a massacre

5:50

the taxes we want

5:52

you to have as many guns and ammunition you

5:56

wish so i'm

5:59

sick of talking about and i feel

6:01

like i would be talking about them a lot

6:03

less if you were people getting shot

6:05

item the experience

6:08

with sandy hook did not just a hard

6:10

sell but your proximity to it did

6:13

it change hey thought about

6:16

father head so i was living

6:18

in connecticut less than ten

6:20

miles from

6:22

sandy hook elementary school my kids were in

6:24

elementary school at a time i

6:27

don't think it affected my

6:29

vision of father heard it

6:31

certainly radicalized me again

6:35

the gun manufacturers and

6:37

lobbyists and the an array

6:40

will say from a fatherhood point of view

6:43

i definitely felt like when my kids got home

6:45

that day in my

6:47

wife and i talk to them about

6:50

what happened in

6:53

somewhat simple language saying

6:55

something bad happened at the school nearby

6:57

some kids were hurt that

7:00

you're okay you're safe i

7:03

definitely the tall feeling like i

7:05

was lying to them daphne

7:07

felt like i was saying

7:10

reassuring words that i didn't know

7:12

to be true why would i think

7:14

they would be true in that moment

7:17

when twenty kids are just been killed

7:19

right next door and i certainly

7:22

was never one of those people who said he could never

7:24

happen here i always

7:26

thought it could happen anywhere

7:30

at least anywhere the united

7:32

states of america but

7:35

you know living so

7:37

close to where an

7:40

understanding understanding more intimate

7:42

way that

7:45

these events the

7:47

end when the gunman

7:49

stops pulling the trigger the

7:52

impact in the lives

7:55

in on the community indefinite

7:59

if you like it was maybe a year ago

8:02

maybe two years ago when

8:05

one of the fathers the

8:08

sandy hook victims killed

8:10

himself this thing doesn't

8:12

stop somebody

8:15

gets shaw

8:19

if they don't die from their injuries while it's

8:21

size these injuries affect them for the rest of their lives

8:24

if not physically psychologically

8:27

it affects their family members their friends

8:29

to communities we

8:31

don't do anything about it the phone with

8:34

we're basically saying this is a price we

8:36

willing to pay for what

8:40

for what i understand it's built

8:42

into the constitution i understand that

8:46

we have a second amendment

8:49

i also understand that we

8:52

can place limits on rights

8:55

in had done so repeatedly

8:58

across our history

9:02

where boys and it's almost

9:05

exclusively boys committing

9:07

these acts of mass violence me what the

9:10

hell is going on here maybe that's an almost

9:12

impossible question to answer i get that

9:14

but you to say in the book that

9:16

the you think you understand

9:18

how a certain kind of masculinity

9:21

and your words can nudge a teetering

9:24

psyche the horde

9:26

violence would you have in mind there

9:28

it is true that these acts are

9:31

made it almost exclusively by

9:33

ways in young man the top

9:35

of my head i can think of nine that

9:37

have been committed hi

9:39

women that to say that there

9:41

haven't been but i certainly can't i

9:44

think of any why

9:46

is the complicated as

9:49

anybody would no question maybe

9:52

take a step back to even begin to answer that

9:54

question because it's not just shootings

9:57

the violence of all kinds that

9:59

is the warming committed hi

10:03

boy so why is that

10:05

what is it about being a

10:07

guy that makes us

10:10

prone to commit acts

10:13

violence the first

10:15

thing you have to do i think is break it down into two categories

10:17

is there something biological that impels

10:20

boys to commit violence and

10:23

is there something sociological that

10:25

compels poised to commit

10:27

violence answer the first question

10:29

is i think yes i think there is

10:31

something biological i

10:33

think we understand that testosterone

10:36

does in fact be towards

10:39

more a rash and

10:42

it doesn't necessarily follow

10:44

that because you have more testosterone

10:47

in your body that you're going to commit acts of

10:49

violence and in fact so much

10:51

of our hold your all cultures

10:54

are organized around

10:57

trying to control aggression

11:00

that's maybe

11:02

alter is in some ways sociologically

11:05

speaking

11:06

that's where i think the nuance comes into

11:09

it and that's where i think we have

11:11

to take deep deep dive

11:14

into what

11:16

it means to be the man

11:19

the culture

11:20

the might have a letter and that's

11:23

what your book is that it's a letter to your son the

11:26

is about the inability of boys

11:28

and men to

11:30

open up in in that means so much

11:32

of who we really

11:35

are remains buried and

11:37

on articulated and that makes a person

11:39

feel unheard and unseen and

11:41

we see time and again and

11:43

even now and the case of this texas shooter

11:46

that part of the motivation is

11:48

some perverse attempt to be

11:50

remembered to leave some kind of mark

11:53

it's why they write manifestoes it's why

11:55

these people live stream their killings is why

11:57

they poster shit on for ten had

12:00

it makes sense that deep need for

12:02

posterity or whatever

12:04

it's not paying attention to motivations

12:06

altogether no i don't care what your motivation

12:09

and that's not should dismiss it

12:11

entirely because i think you're right and i think there's

12:13

friends that you can see but

12:15

i think your first point is

12:17

also correct that so much of

12:19

what it means to be a guy historically

12:23

has been a bow never

12:25

admitting weakness never

12:27

admitting fear never admitting

12:29

vulnerability the not having

12:31

the tools are the cabbie larry to open

12:34

up generally there's kind

12:36

of to acceptable emotional

12:38

reactions for a lotta guys and

12:40

that's anger and withdrawl

12:42

and i think we see and a lie the shooters both

12:45

of those things happening anger and withdrawals

12:47

when you see somebody say i'll use a quiet

12:49

kid he was so quiet well

12:51

yeah would you think that is that

12:54

somebody retreating into

12:56

themselves because they don't know how

12:59

to ask for help they don't know

13:01

how to communicate they

13:03

don't know how to receive express

13:05

empathy

13:07

and yet there's clearly something broken

13:09

with these dudes

13:10

so that's why so many politicians

13:13

go what he was crazy this is a

13:15

lone wolf he's crazy yeah

13:17

he's crazy okay like

13:20

we can write off all the mass shooters

13:22

as raising and just dismiss

13:24

them the you want to dismiss

13:26

all the mass shooters is crazy go ahead

13:30

they're not the problem it's the day to day

13:32

gun violence it is

13:34

the domestic violence

13:36

it is these suicides he

13:39

is the accidental discharge

13:41

is is easy access to firearms

13:44

it's the family disputes it's retaliatory

13:47

gunfire when somebody feels test

13:49

it's all this bullshit

13:52

into that we gotta look at how we're

13:54

raising boys in what you

13:56

said is right they don't know how to express

13:58

themselves and one easy waited it is with a

14:00

gun internet is that

14:02

right i mean the token a book about

14:05

i'm it is there's this desire to destroy

14:08

oneself in the world and that

14:10

the requires like an extreme level of self

14:12

importance and arrogance

14:14

and to me it's also about

14:16

living in the series hello society

14:19

were allowed people don't have a

14:21

deep roots in any real community

14:23

so

14:24

a lot of especially boys live in our heads

14:27

we live in the virtual world and that

14:29

breed sister homicidal

14:31

loneliness and narcissism and i know

14:34

an excuse

14:35

the nihilism in of psychopathy

14:37

driving these mass killings

14:40

mean that's obviously going on there's

14:42

just no doubt that in that lot of these cases

14:45

they're used his history of

14:47

loneliness and a strange met and resentment

14:49

that builds and builds and the trajectory of

14:51

some that these boys surely could have been altered

14:54

along the way and there so many

14:56

the young men who haven't yet erupted

14:59

that who are exploding in slow motion

15:01

and their inner turmoil is hidden

15:04

and maybe inexpressible and we just keep paying

15:06

the price for it with the blood

15:08

of innocent people of innocent

15:11

he'll drink and it's just

15:15

i noted of i guess i really don't we

15:17

write a mean i think lack of community

15:20

is a big head of it which ties

15:22

into lack of purpose which ties

15:24

into lack of self identity

15:27

that's why many start talking about this stuff

15:29

like it's very very deep

15:31

conversation and it gets

15:34

to the heart of a

15:36

lot of things that are wrong done only in our country

15:38

but in the world's problems with identity

15:40

community purpose i think those are

15:42

are probably consistent in much of the world's

15:45

in our little corner of the world yeah it's it's

15:48

endemic it seems to be

15:51

worse the ways

15:54

the party that has to do i think

15:56

with not having the vocabulary

15:59

and tools to

16:01

express ourselves in constructors

16:04

meaningful invulnerable ways that's

16:06

partially what this book is about

16:09

we talk about a ,

16:11

years hiding in the armor of your sarcasm

16:14

and withdrawn withdrawn i relate

16:16

to that a lot though my case it's not humor

16:18

onions unless funny enough for

16:21

me it was probably more

16:23

like false bravado and it was probably than a period

16:25

of my life around almost ,

16:27

like sociopathic indifference to some kind

16:29

of like a way of pretending like nothing got

16:32

to me and i was probably really emotionally

16:34

stunted since i had long time nigga still

16:36

and in some ways in

16:38

did you feel like your identity as a detached

16:41

kind of sarcastic comic was keeping you tethered

16:43

to a version of yourself that

16:45

you wanted to leave behind snatches for you

16:49

for your kids yeah to the extent

16:51

that i became well known it

16:53

was probably for being

16:55

this sort of deadpan sarcastic comedian

16:58

the could risk fairly effectively

17:01

on cabbage patch kids now

17:05

it's fine and it was renew

17:07

marriages in i could

17:09

have kept doing that it

17:12

while i was having you

17:14

know some success with that i

17:16

was also married i was

17:18

also becoming a father then

17:22

what like there was a growing

17:24

disconnect between who i was professionally

17:28

and who i wanted to be personally you

17:30

wanna be detached from

17:33

my life i didn't want to be detached

17:35

from my wife and for my kids and

17:39

it's not like that deadpan sarcasm

17:41

came out of left field i mean that's how i went to

17:43

my life that is hiring

17:45

it wasn't a caricature but it

17:47

was my go to defense mechanism

17:50

and i recognized that

17:52

i didn't wanna have the

17:56

had him between who i was personally

18:00

the i was professionally so

18:02

something had to give and

18:05

i made a conscious decision that i was gonna

18:07

try to open up in my personalized

18:10

and in my professional life so that

18:12

i could be mostly

18:15

the father that i wanted to be

18:18

i want to tie this back to say the of masculinity

18:21

toxic masculinity in particular

18:24

because a recurring theme in the bugs partly

18:26

, of where i grew up in the south

18:28

side how i grew up there is

18:30

something a pretty deep in me that reflexively

18:33

box

18:34

another talk about toxic

18:37

masculinity and this question of vulnerability

18:39

and toughness is such a hard one for

18:41

me and you made me think about

18:44

my own father who i

18:46

love dearly who is still a very she's part

18:48

of my life but , know he's very much

18:50

product of that kind of old school

18:53

army of one mentality where toughness is

18:55

almost by definition the

18:57

opposite of vulnerability and probably

19:00

internalized that pardoning forever

19:02

but it can be real handicap times why

19:06

do you think vulnerability is so

19:08

important i love this line is that you have

19:10

in your son we say your vulnerabilities where they are you

19:13

let them

19:15

i understand why

19:17

a lot of men recoil

19:20

rom thinking

19:22

too deeply about their own

19:24

masculinity a recoil from

19:27

the term toxic masculinity

19:29

and it's because toxic masculinity

19:32

in some ways has become a catch all phrase

19:35

that just sometimes means

19:37

masculinity and masculinity

19:39

isn't toxic there's so much

19:42

about what men have historically

19:44

don't that's great there's a lot

19:46

it's great about being strong

19:48

and being tossed in in during tough time

19:51

keeping a stiff upper lip there's a lot

19:53

that's awesome about that we need

19:55

that and we should celebrate

19:57

it's however there are

19:59

times in everybody's life when

20:02

being an army of one the using

20:06

literally constructive there's

20:08

, reason that armies when they train

20:10

they don't train you to be an army of one

20:12

they train you to work as a cohesive

20:15

unit is because you rely

20:17

on each other to get shit done

20:20

you need to rely on each other to

20:22

get shit done so absolute be so

20:24

absolute but there's gonna be moments

20:26

where you're going to need celts and it

20:28

requires a lot of self

20:30

confidence and toughness

20:34

to say i need

20:36

help in this moment

20:38

the is one thing to be tough when

20:40

you are fully armored

20:43

that's the way so many guys go to work just

20:45

fully armored up

20:47

it requires a whole other level

20:49

of toughness to take off the armor

20:51

in to just stand

20:53

there naked that

20:57

requires a lot of strength

20:59

to be able to do that oh

21:02

you are vulnerabilities and if

21:04

you can survive that been

21:06

sort of naked and vulnerable in

21:08

live in your own strength in that moment

21:11

you're only gonna make yourself more

21:14

powerful

21:16

there's a flip side to this which

21:18

is men i feel like or

21:21

romantic and a lot of ways by we have

21:23

romantic ideas about

21:26

our solitude we have romantic ideas

21:29

about going off to fight battles

21:31

we have romantic ideas about loves i

21:33

don't think it's hard for men to give less i

21:36

think men enjoy giving love

21:38

and that were pretty good at it

21:40

where i think we fall to were think men come

21:43

up short is receiving was

21:45

and it's for the same reason because to receive

21:47

love you have to let down

21:49

your guard you have

21:52

to be vulnerable in order to fully

21:54

receive somebody loves to if you're willing

21:56

to give love then

21:59

you understand the gift the profound

22:01

gifted you're giving somebody when

22:03

you give them your last why

22:05

would you then turn around and deny them

22:08

deny them to give their love

22:11

why would you

22:13

keep your guard up when somebody is trying to get

22:15

in somebody that you profess love whether it's your

22:17

spouse whether it's your children whoever

22:19

it is it takes takes of strength

22:22

to let down that armor and receive

22:24

less

22:26

then i'd like to frame masculinity in

22:28

those terms in terms that were already familiar

22:30

with strength toughness insurance

22:34

let me read a quote from your buck real quick did you don't

22:36

mind the right

22:38

men feel isolated confused

22:40

and conflicted about our own nature's many

22:43

feel the very qualities

22:45

that used to define men strength

22:47

aggression and independence are

22:50

no longer wanted or needed many

22:52

others never felt strong or

22:54

aggressive or independent to begin with we

22:57

don't know how to be and were terrified

23:00

the inquiry there's

23:02

a lot going on there and i'm not entirely

23:04

sure what i think about it

23:05

there are definitely dueling pressures for men

23:08

today and be both sort of incontinent

23:11

and also sensitive an empathetic

23:14

and while i do think those are mutually compatible

23:17

i know you think the confusion here

23:20

harmful it it why

23:22

is that i like to think of it like

23:25

this fifty years

23:27

ago if you

23:31

hard to bow the girl

23:33

or woman

23:35

then you talked about for as

23:37

being a strong independent tough woman

23:40

you would have thought of her in some

23:42

ways as being west permanent

23:44

because he knows attributes

23:47

we don't think of girls way anymore

23:50

in fact we celebrate their strength we

23:52

celebrate their independence we celebrated

23:54

toughness because we understand

23:57

that in elevating both parts of their personality

24:00

we are not diminishing the other parts

24:02

of their personalities and of more traditionally

24:04

feminine

24:06

there's no reason we can't

24:08

expand the definition of masculinity

24:11

the same way we have with femininity

24:14

the conversations with are also have been

24:16

going on has to the past fifty years sixty

24:18

years those conversations

24:20

had yielded tremendous results

24:23

we see women entering all facets

24:25

of society it has not meant

24:27

that they can't be wives and mothers as well

24:30

as that's what they choose to be

24:33

we've seen how the

24:35

rules are just writing

24:38

the result of these conversations

24:40

these generational conversations

24:43

and we applaud it rightly

24:44

well it's time to have those same conversations

24:47

with boys in a get their

24:49

generational conversations the system

24:51

said that just gonna change overnight but

24:54

it's stuff that we have to start addressing

24:57

not only because of the gun violence

24:59

problem but because of every other problem it's going

25:01

on in the culture a lot of men feel

25:03

adrift they feel lost they don't

25:05

know who they are they don't know what their places and

25:07

i'm saying there are ways to

25:10

this men and boys than

25:14

to give them

25:16

renewed sense of purpose

25:18

in the culture and that purpose can

25:21

involve

25:22

all of the traditional attributes that men are

25:24

the can involve their strength and their toughness

25:26

in their pride in their aggression in their returns and

25:28

it can also involved your compassion

25:31

their natural empathy their vulnerability

25:33

their creativity holiday

25:35

because ultimately what we're talking

25:38

about when we talk about boys

25:40

and girls there is not

25:43

one set of characteristics

25:45

that make a brawl noise their one set of characteristics

25:48

that make a boy

25:50

there are certain set of characteristics

25:52

that make a human and we all share

25:54

them we don't need to silo

25:57

them the into gender we

25:59

can hey you're a full spectrum human

26:01

being as a girl you're a full spectrum

26:03

human being as a boy let's figure

26:06

out a way for you to be all of yourself

26:09

all of the time

26:10

that's because of that narrowness right yeah

26:13

it's it's kind of like an awful trade off

26:15

that you have to make sometimes

26:17

as a young boy to

26:19

fit in with other boys

26:22

had to be alienated from your own emotional life

26:25

but , price of that emotional alienation

26:28

is steep mean this is

26:30

what we're talking about right now and it's

26:33

a problem with deep problem with in will

26:35

be transcended overnight that's for damn sure in

26:37

it doesn't seem like girls have to make that same kind

26:39

of tradeoff the trade up that you're

26:41

talking about i think is i'll

26:44

use an illustration from my own life i

26:46

was one of those boys that was

26:50

always referred to as sensitive

26:53

and when you're

26:55

very young boy it's sort of okay

26:58

and six at a little older it

27:00

becomes a little bit demeaning when

27:03

i was sensitive like i was here

27:05

prone you know i would try

27:07

a lot as a boy the

27:10

and even in my early adolescence

27:13

and i remember very distinctly

27:15

having an emotional meltdown

27:17

one day in eighth grade

27:20

the and sobbing and a hallway the

27:23

and the thinking to myself

27:25

you can't keep doing this

27:27

like this has to stop because

27:30

you're going to get the shit

27:32

it yeah she

27:35

know you can't be this boy

27:38

the memory i have

27:40

and whether or not this is true but it certainly

27:42

is my impression of it now is that i was

27:44

able to sort of mark

27:46

something away in that moment and

27:51

i wasn't able to unlock it for

27:53

thirty years i

27:56

had a lot of that in me too but

27:59

only buried it

28:00

and i took refuge and things

28:02

like sports and stuff like that way the kind of escape

28:05

sure that pardon me but as but as

28:07

the pardon me that people saw was wooden

28:10

an incomplete

28:11

the kind of oppose and he i

28:13

just turned forty and i'm like still barely spreading

28:16

the like it's gonna come to grips with some it

28:18

as does yeah it definitely

28:20

arrested a lot of by the emotional

28:23

development and maturity for a long time it's it's

28:25

not the exception that is the norm absolutely

28:28

that's that's voice just locked

28:31

that shit ah the

28:33

now and we

28:35

see the results the do so

28:43

we're going to take a quick break but when

28:45

we're back why , so many

28:48

men think being a man means

28:50

bearing their feelings

29:00

thats a nice sound you

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now that's shop a fight that smashbox

30:07

you lessons to this a wake in and wake

30:09

as michael wake we michael this we

30:11

author sean confront inspire the

30:13

bit editorial texas news and podcasts

30:16

we also understand that your time his vulnerability

30:18

and we want you to apply the lessons that you hear

30:20

on this podcast school ,

30:22

a get by to son empathy of the better

30:25

confront we of to author elementary wake

30:27

hall your editor talk what a real

30:30

real paperback and serious

30:32

was are to amy to get you

30:34

guest that serious for news

30:36

shooting service hall serious was serious how

30:39

being to being paid to comedian that

30:41

is writes as first place vulnerability school

30:43

of home for financial how writes of paperback shooting

30:45

for vox elementary ian and are free

30:48

we that is news guest favorite serious

30:50

was producer confront leave is serious

30:52

his a real serious vox real one in other

30:54

producer being to how your bit subscribe

30:56

the a was win sean apply for my elusive

30:59

deputy of texas also and the deputy

31:01

first workman your was and

31:03

financial place apple inspire bit this

31:05

letter his including you to letter news school

31:08

persons area off shootings and tragic

31:10

shootings in the workman son

31:12

episode a to was have it

31:14

and murder was confront at serious first

31:16

talk home black place

31:19

that service for talk hall black

31:21

be also you as

31:35

in the book you mentioned jordan peterson

31:37

who i guess i described

31:40

as a cold psychology

31:42

one of the things he's constantly

31:45

preaching to is mostly male

31:47

audience is that being a man

31:50

means suffering quietly it

31:52

means keeping your feelings to

31:54

yourself and just carrying

31:56

on and in the book

31:58

you describe that there's an emotional tourniquet

32:02

what do you mean

32:03

lot jordan peterson i think is a

32:06

really powerful figure and

32:08

it's not a coincidence that it's audience

32:10

is all young man because young

32:12

men are looking for guidance hi

32:15

joe rogan so important in the culture

32:18

young men are so hungry

32:20

to understand how to be

32:22

mad these guys

32:24

fill that need the

32:27

and helping jordan peterson

32:29

entirely wrong people

32:32

don't want to you you constantly mewling

32:35

about your pain but

32:37

it's not an either or situation

32:41

there are moments when it's totally

32:43

fine to release that tourniquet inlet

32:46

blood flow go through your whims

32:49

and feel the circulation and express

32:51

yourself and talk about your pain

32:54

and guess what when you do that the

32:56

advice will say i'm

32:58

also having that experience thank

33:01

you for saying it because i was feeling

33:03

a tube they want to say it because

33:06

fuck in jordan peterson is telling me never to talk

33:08

about my pain and it's easy to understand

33:11

why the audience for

33:13

that there's

33:16

so much larger than the audience

33:18

for i think what we're talking about right now

33:21

because it reinforces what they've already

33:23

been taught it's saying to

33:27

somebody like you or somebody like me you

33:29

were right to cut yourself off emotionally

33:32

that's the proper role of a man

33:34

the proper role of a man is to shut

33:37

up and carry on

33:39

i'm saying that's killing us

33:42

and it's killing other people

33:44

i know your father died when you were twelve

33:47

and the you say about that in

33:49

some ways

33:51

the kind of your way of talking to him now

33:53

and that's how did your history with your

33:55

dad inform what you say

33:57

to your son and this letter

34:00

so my dad

34:02

in my mom divorced when i

34:04

was behind i

34:06

continue to see my dad until he died

34:09

he was in our alive he

34:11

had a hard time expressing himself he wasn't

34:13

a particularly expressive remote his dad like

34:15

so many men him of his generation

34:18

in previous generations and

34:21

i have i have distinct memory

34:23

of being dropped off after

34:26

a weekend with him i was in the

34:28

car with my brother and my

34:30

sister and i waited for them to

34:32

get out and walk

34:34

up to our house the man

34:37

i said to my dad almost

34:39

embarrassed because these

34:42

were not words that he had said to us

34:45

i said i love you then i

34:47

had a dash started a car the

34:50

for the had a chance to respond

34:53

about like it might be hard for him to say it back

34:55

that because he didn't love us i

34:57

know he loved us because he wasn't

35:00

capable of expressing

35:02

himself in that way that's

35:05

why the father now

35:09

i never stop telling my kids are like i

35:11

told him every time i see them people

35:13

tend to death obviously

35:15

it's not enough to say it you have to

35:18

the i've tried to

35:20

live the parent one

35:23

way to do that maybe the best

35:26

way to do that is to listen to your

35:28

kids this two the

35:30

of them the respect that you would give to

35:33

one of your peers treat them like

35:36

they're human beings and take them seriously as

35:38

people i feel like i've

35:40

tried to do that the entire lives even

35:42

when they were really little you know just give

35:44

them respects give them the

35:46

year the them the

35:49

shoulder when they did the

35:51

hadn't been data i'm like probably

35:53

an average that and for the

35:56

b b plus dad

35:58

at best but in a and that

36:01

ran the book and akrotiri and can

36:03

you're addressing your son coming to me for

36:05

comfort

36:07

was one of the greatest gifts you ever gave

36:09

to me because it allowed me to be

36:11

your dad that

36:14

resonate so much with my experience

36:16

and exactly what we're talking about

36:18

the active hearing

36:21

for my son who's about to turn three changing

36:25

his diapers wracking him to sleep

36:27

taking fast with him i don't

36:29

think i've ever felt more

36:32

satisfied as a man they

36:35

feel in those moments i

36:37

mean more satisfied as a man than i would i'd

36:40

feel wrestling of sucking alligator sisters

36:42

and i never

36:44

would have imagined bass yeah before

36:47

became a dad and you have to become a dad

36:49

to have that revelation but it's it was a revelation

36:51

for me that i could take such joy

36:54

in such pride in

36:57

herring for another human

36:59

being and it's i

37:01

needed experience of being

37:03

a dad

37:04

who had that may be other people don't but i

37:06

needed it it has changed me i think

37:08

fundamentally mess to have their unbroken

37:11

like everyone else have to , but

37:13

it expanded my concept

37:16

of what it means the

37:18

be a man and a father

37:21

the thing that made you feel most

37:24

the title

37:25

where the acts that are

37:28

most traditionally maternal

37:30

the thing that made you feel most like

37:32

a man or the things that are most

37:34

commonly associated with being a woman why

37:37

is that i would argue that

37:39

it's because it allows you to open

37:41

a door into the fullness

37:44

of who you are as a person people

37:48

want to give comfort people

37:50

want to give aid people want

37:52

to give love and compassion then

37:55

as a parent like suddenly

37:58

that becomes your job and so the

38:00

when your kid is like i need like diaper

38:03

change when you kid needs a bath and

38:05

your kidneys comforts that's

38:07

your job all the sudden and you realize

38:09

holy shit like this was a part of me all

38:11

along and i needed this

38:14

i needed this from a better word

38:16

excuse the

38:18

just be a human being it

38:21

feels right it feels great

38:23

when you finally able

38:25

the do that and do it without apology

38:28

do it without self consciousness in

38:30

don't feel yourself diminished in any way

38:32

as a man because you're performing your

38:34

job as a father

38:36

what you can apply that to the rest of your life

38:39

how good it feels when you helped somebody

38:41

across the street

38:43

you're fucking great good

38:46

does it feel when you helped somebody get

38:48

your car out of a snowbank were

38:50

made to help other people as a big

38:52

part of who we are

38:54

the to take becoming a dad to kind of figure

38:56

that out i was as something that you're gonna already

38:58

on the road to before a lot

39:00

of things had to come together for

39:02

me the just allow

39:04

myself to be myself the lot

39:07

in it was becoming a dad lie that was becoming a husband

39:10

a lot it was just maturity

39:12

a lot it was just learning how to open

39:14

those doors that i closed off to

39:16

myself and by the way i'm still struggling with it

39:18

every day it's that worked at like

39:21

the ads for me it's stuff that i have to

39:24

work on

39:25

all the time because you know my

39:27

impulse is still when i get upset

39:30

to still shut off become

39:33

defensive shutdown withdraw

39:36

i really have to work on singing

39:39

for example i'm sorry those

39:42

were the really really hard for guys i'm

39:44

sorry the requires

39:47

a lot of vulnerability

39:49

any have to admit your own infallibility

39:52

as a guy which isn't always easy

39:54

the hope people remember how about

39:56

it is manifest when no reason

39:58

the debate about the

40:01

turn it he leads not too long

40:03

ago they were martyrs

40:05

republicans who were basically

40:08

saying it's family be

40:10

the very idea that like a dad

40:13

would say home and and care for his infant

40:15

child right like dallas it's gate

40:17

of blood your kids and i mean it's like assess

40:19

the fall a lot of her right like it's like

40:22

this stuff is

40:24

in the fabric of how we think about

40:26

masculinity and gender roles and what it means

40:28

to be a dad what it means to be a

40:31

mom and these walls

40:33

are ridiculous

40:35

but there are high in fact he he is because

40:37

so much of the way we think about manhood

40:40

is wrapped up in

40:42

our ability

40:44

to produce the reduce

40:47

capital to exert labor

40:50

you make money anything

40:52

that you do that would diminish that

40:54

even if it's been two weeks see

40:56

can take care of your partner's

40:59

you can take care of your infant child

41:01

is on manly because

41:04

suddenly you're saying

41:06

i'm not going to make money for two weeks i'm gonna

41:08

start my responsibilities on the job

41:10

i'm not gonna revised

41:13

the company for those two weeks

41:15

and it's bullshit oh

41:18

shit

41:18

your primary job is a guy is

41:21

to be there for your loved ones i

41:23

mean it's so redacted and stupid

41:26

were redacted instead we

41:28

, be better better love

41:30

that george carlin quote that you

41:32

mention that i just watched hp of that and

41:34

i and way so that here's all you need

41:37

to know about men and women women are crazy

41:39

men are stupid and a main reason women are

41:41

crazy is that men

41:43

stupid in and good

41:47

god students true now yeah

41:50

and i also going to say

41:52

it's funny because we understand but it's also

41:54

not sure i mean we can be smart

41:56

we can do smart shit you know men aren't

41:58

stupid but me the feel

42:01

the and it's

42:03

a stupid trap in our

42:05

role in the culture

42:07

the to be stripped away

42:10

i mean you see it right now we'll

42:12

talk about the guns in shit like

42:15

the republican stance

42:17

is willfully purposefully

42:21

do that because they

42:24

would rather be stupid then

42:28

the admit that they were wrong war

42:31

and i think this is the deeper hard

42:34

gun ownership and

42:36

dogs

42:37

they have made so enmeshed

42:40

with their particular

42:42

brand of masculinity

42:46

the and their identity as

42:48

americans that

42:51

to contemplate

42:53

giving them up

42:55

these to contemplate in a very

42:57

real way i'm not making fun of the man

43:00

diminishing them in a very real

43:02

way is to give up some aspects of

43:04

their masculinity

43:06

because they have so tightly define

43:09

their masculinity to this

43:11

object

43:12

my for the genius of that carlin quote raise

43:15

on the sort of thing i women aren't actually

43:18

crazy but the appear that way to

43:20

us because we're so drunk and our own pathologies

43:24

, whatever they don't see why i call

43:26

it amis , the word

43:28

ease

43:29

second ago trapped right

43:31

i mean we have this very american

43:34

conception of masculinity as like any

43:36

other rugged individual blazing his own

43:38

pass and i agree

43:41

with you that the very idea of anyone being

43:43

truly self made is

43:46

preposterous it's you think about it

43:48

for just a second or two

43:50

the same time there is something thou

43:53

your bull increasing

43:55

toughness and and self reliance because

43:58

life is hearts and we

44:00

we will be tested and there is a lot of

44:02

pride and purpose to be had in bidding

44:04

those values and affirming those values suggest

44:07

me the question is how do you not extinguish

44:09

that altogether instead

44:12

balance those virtues and they

44:14

can be virtues balance those

44:17

with the sort of healthy vulnerabilities

44:20

that we're talking about here

44:23

yeah i mean i think you answer your question you don't extinguisher

44:26

there's no reason to eliminate

44:29

individualisms you know

44:31

the world needs iconoclasts the

44:33

world needs mavericks

44:35

you need to be an iconoclast and a maverick

44:37

in your own life at times you need to forge

44:40

your own path at times you need to buck

44:42

the system at times

44:45

we have identified

44:48

americanism as the rugged

44:50

individual going off and forging his own path

44:53

and that has done great things for us there are

44:55

innumerable examples of

44:57

americans in particular just sort of

44:59

figuring shit out contemplating

45:02

things in different ways and coming up with marble solutions

45:04

like that's part of the american genius

45:07

and we should celebrate that it

45:09

doesn't mean that

45:11

the do that you have to go live in a cave

45:13

somewhere off reds independent

45:16

of all other people and one

45:18

of the images i always have in my head's is

45:21

of the lone gunman riding into

45:23

town and shooting up the bad

45:25

guys in receiving this thanks of

45:27

does the town council and getting

45:29

the kiss on the cheek from the prettiest girl in

45:31

town and them saying hey

45:34

why don't you come and stay and be a part of our town

45:36

we'd love to have yeah you could be an invaluable

45:38

member of our communities and the lone

45:40

gunman sort of looking at them and

45:42

tipping is hot and riding away into the sunset

45:45

and we look at that loan guy many go wow

45:47

what a great guy that is but then

45:49

in my head there's always something funny and tragic

45:51

about cutting so that die like six

45:53

hours later out there in there desert sitting

45:56

by himself around himself around eating a can

45:58

of beans dislike looking

46:00

and being utterly alone in

46:02

that landscape the really alone

46:04

and lonely with nobody but it's fucking horse

46:07

to talk to and wondering like

46:09

what is it about that person that is so deeply

46:11

broken specie can't accept

46:14

the love of the community that

46:16

he can accept the invitation to

46:18

become a part of something greater than himself

46:21

he has these valuable tools he's

46:24

shown his value and worse and

46:26

nobody's asking him to give those up

46:28

there saying we want you and everything

46:30

that you are to be a part of this community and

46:33

he sang that i'd rather just go eat

46:35

my beans off by myself

46:37

and logistics of that's what that's

46:39

tragic for that that's

46:42

the guy we celebrate

46:48

we're going to take one last

46:50

short break when we come back

46:53

why you're a couple of guys talk to each other

46:55

about their feelings they must or

46:57

out a podcast

47:05

nine pm is a good time for a lot

47:07

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and reduce plastic waste one

48:45

to help them get everybody back visit

48:47

every

48:50

poulter

48:59

had more space for

49:01

the sort of nail friendship

49:03

and particular in that allows

49:05

for this kind of emotional nudity

49:08

that's a weird phrase but whatever a scene

49:11

on sale we have all these ridiculous taboos

49:13

around weakness and i think they leave us the theory

49:15

impoverished model of friendship

49:18

especially between men were it's hard to

49:21

the open to love without feeling like

49:23

you're somehow broken or less than

49:26

mean hell i just met he likes ten minutes ago

49:28

and and we're talking about stuff here that like

49:31

i , ever talk or like most you don't ever talk

49:33

with their nails friends about right would just

49:35

you know go there you know it's it's beer and ball games

49:38

at my desk the lane that's the extent

49:40

of it right

49:42

yeah for my group of friends for comedians

49:44

his jokes to death just sitting

49:46

on things and dancing around

49:48

difficult conversations not

49:51

exclusively particularly as we'd gotten older

49:53

i think we've gotten a little bit better at it but

49:55

, most of my life and i think most male friendships

49:58

are like that it's not that the

50:00

superficial they're not get

50:02

a minute i know i know you but for like women

50:04

listening for example male friendship

50:06

is often really deep uncommunicative

50:09

you understand that you're

50:11

there for that other guy that you

50:14

care about that other guy that you

50:16

would do anything for that other guy but you'd never say

50:18

that the would never expressed those

50:20

words and he would never expressed those words to

50:22

you women have been

50:25

emotional space to do that

50:27

in a way that guys don't it would be

50:29

nice if we could figure out ways to carve out

50:31

at emotional space to that men could

50:34

have these conversations outside

50:36

of podcasts how

50:39

desert sun

50:40

in college right now idea

50:45

he just turned twenty one ours is

50:47

a grown ass man now yeah

50:49

the different generation the new and i

50:51

do see evolution hair do you feel

50:53

like you've been able to cultivate these

50:56

ideals and him while also i'm

50:59

letting auntie whoever the health he

51:01

is and once today today

51:04

growth their least compared to yourself well

51:06

sample size of wine is not great

51:08

the i know he

51:10

is more

51:13

emotionally intelligent

51:15

and available than i was at his age

51:17

that i think is through

51:20

the like to think that my wife and i played

51:23

some role in that i don't know generally

51:27

speaking

51:28

what i see his his generation

51:31

is maybe a little bit further along than

51:33

my generation was in my generation

51:35

is further along in my

51:38

that generation was so you know maybe

51:40

there's incremental progress acting like i said

51:42

this is generational were it's gonna

51:44

take decades for us to really

51:46

read the benefits of these kinds

51:48

of conversations and i'm okay with

51:50

that i'm willing to put in that work i

51:53

hope my son's generation is willing to put a network

51:55

to because we need to do

51:57

in the meantime let's get rid of fucking guns that

52:00

work is happening

52:02

what a few times and then

52:04

you know maybe and twenty thirty years we can reintroduced

52:06

for me to build look at the keeps at the give figures your shit

52:09

as you can have your your fifteen back

52:13

it can put a bonus i love what you

52:15

say that your professional

52:17

ambitions seeming so

52:20

insignificant in the faces parents had

52:22

let even if he became the greatest the

52:25

comic ever or even if i became and

52:28

a famous specialist and my

52:30

generation what , that even

52:32

mean right it means that like some

52:34

kid and fifty years like grated city term

52:36

paper about yet the out but but

52:39

right like exactly but

52:41

raising like exactly

52:43

herring courageous human being

52:45

whose decency him kindness encourage will

52:47

multiply and make the world a little better

52:50

that's the legacy and

52:53

oh my god i hope are doing that and i hope this

52:55

conversation is useful for

52:57

anyone out there trying to do the same

52:59

thing yeah

53:01

i do too i mean i

53:03

think

53:05

this conversation i hope

53:07

is one of ten million conversations

53:09

happening and they will breed

53:11

hundred million conversations after that

53:14

and in time we'll

53:17

get to a point where we're not opening

53:20

the podcast the talking about the latest

53:22

mass shooting i want

53:24

those events to become

53:27

the vanishingly rare as opposed

53:29

to what the trajectory that we're seeing which

53:31

is increasingly common it

53:34

is how i began thinking about

53:36

this as he said with sandy hook the

53:38

was parkland it made me the

53:40

down in right that book the

53:43

and pretty much every

53:45

conversation i had about the book they'd

53:47

start me

53:50

the and whatever interviewer i'm speaking

53:52

with talking about the latest

53:55

mass casualty event somewhere

53:58

in america these conversations

54:01

i hope

54:02

why should though they may be in some respect

54:04

when compared to the power of a gun

54:07

will ultimately proved to be the antidote

54:10

circus bad a give my three

54:13

oh boy almost are ya boy the hard on

54:15

his way out to daycare then

54:18

they took everything i had tonight crack

54:20

up and i know not only one

54:23

that like that the day after again

54:27

the book is a better man

54:29

is a serious and thoughtful and intimate

54:32

and honest it is funny

54:35

you are funny but there's a lot

54:37

more there than just jokes

54:39

and i really appreciate you being here michael

54:41

and black thinking oh , pleasure

54:44

thanks for having me and thanks to the thoughtful

54:46

conversation and yeah

54:48

let's just be one of ten million conversations

55:07

that conversations is produced by air ginny

55:10

guess or , is amy trust

55:12

oscar oscar void mixed

55:14

and mastered this mastered or

55:16

theme music was dreamed up by the mysterious break master

55:18

cylinder and amber hall

55:21

is hall deputy editorial director of fox

55:25

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55:28

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55:30

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55:32

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55:35

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55:38

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55:40

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55:42

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55:45

share it with your friends and rate and review

55:48

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