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and affordable housing are also helping

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close the racial wealth and increased

0:27

economic mobility in the us it

0:30

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now let's get to the show

1:36

are

1:38

we setting parents

1:40

the player

1:44

i'm charlie and i'm your host

1:46

for box conversations

1:57

letting children of mass

1:59

and today's more

1:59

is incredibly hard

2:03

in our culture it's especially hard

2:05

because the job of giving kids everything

2:08

they need largely falls

2:10

to parents and even

2:12

if you're the most attentive and loving

2:15

parents in the world it's

2:17

not a nun and

2:19

that's because kids need so much more

2:22

than one loving parents alone can get

2:24

them if they're going

2:26

to succeed in this society they're

2:29

need to learn certain kinds of skills and

2:31

they need learn kinds of people to teach

2:33

them those skills schools

2:36

are supposed to the kids

2:39

in the vast majority of her time outside

2:42

school and the most crucial

2:44

period majority development for kids occurs

2:47

before they even get to public school

2:50

gaps that emerged during this

2:52

time or one of the great drivers

2:54

of inequality in our country economists

2:59

nate silver thinks one children as

3:01

the largest disenfranchised minority

3:03

group in america and that

3:05

parents are being failed along

3:07

with their children his new

3:09

book called the parent trap argued

3:11

that it doesn't have to be this way and

3:14

that we can changes i

3:16

invited over onto the show and we

3:18

started with his basic in

3:21

what's

3:34

the parent trap is the

3:36

most basic level the the

3:38

grievously unrealistic expectations

3:41

that we place on parents to build

3:43

a huge range of important

3:46

skills in children early

3:48

in their life the

3:50

consequences of that unrealistic

3:52

expectation it's a a lot

3:54

of social problems that cost us both

3:57

emotionally and economically

4:00

the other aspect of the parent trap beyond

4:02

the unrealistic expectations is

4:05

the difficulty we have talking about

4:07

that basic trapped because once we start

4:09

saying that some parents are struggling in certain

4:11

ways and is correlated with race

4:14

and class it sounds so threatening

4:16

and it just shut down the conversation and

4:19

that is also i think an important part of what

4:21

keeps the status quo in place

4:24

what are those unrealistic expectations

4:28

well

4:29

to begin life children have

4:31

to pick up not just you know the same

4:33

as academic skills like literacy

4:35

and numeracy but they have to get

4:37

this wide range of other skills

4:39

social emotional behavioral

4:42

skills like self discipline

4:45

things like tenacity financial

4:48

skill how to take care of yourself

4:50

mentally and physically there's a wide range

4:52

of these skills that really are

4:55

to sound asian of children's

4:57

independence and success in adulthood

5:00

and building those skills turns out to be

5:02

a lot more complicated and difficult

5:04

then we have assumed

5:07

seven hundreds of years and that makes

5:09

it really hard for individual parents to do it

5:11

successfully on a level playing field

5:13

playing their spare time

5:15

yeah and i just want to acknowledge something

5:18

that you acknowledge for very good reasons

5:20

the beginning in the book which is that what

5:23

you're saying might upset

5:26

some parents when they hear or read it because

5:28

you're kind of implying that many

5:31

of us i am apparent cannot

5:33

do what we really want to do what

5:35

we're trying to do for all

5:37

kinds of reasons beyond our control and

5:40

you point out that this reaction is very

5:42

understandable but also

5:44

reflection of how deeply we've internalized

5:47

the parent trap it merely talking about it sounds

5:49

like we're blaming parents but for really

5:51

doing the opposite that's right

5:53

what i try to plan out in the book is

5:55

that we need to start viewing

5:57

this activity of child skill development

6:00

in a different way to make this whole conversation

6:02

a lot more comfortable i

6:04

argue that we should be viewing

6:07

child skill development more likely view other

6:09

procession all complicated activities

6:11

like building a house or flying

6:14

an airplane as parents we

6:16

don't feel bad when we have to hire

6:19

a pilot to flashed across the country

6:21

by buying a plane tickets we don't feel bad

6:23

when we hire professional architects

6:25

and construction workers to build our homes

6:28

for to you know buy a home that was built

6:30

by a professional architect and construction

6:33

team we feel like these are

6:35

such a complicated specialized skills that

6:38

we expect to outsource them and we

6:40

don't feel ashamed of that and i think

6:42

that's how we need to start thinking and talking

6:44

about many aspects of town skill developments

6:47

another aspect of this whole problem

6:49

that can help make us feel a little more comfortable with it is

6:52

that this is in fact what affluent parents

6:54

already do in many respects they

6:57

pay professional tutors and

6:59

counselors and coaches to do complicated

7:01

things to benefit their children and helped

7:04

develop their skills that they don't have time

7:06

or expertise to do themselves

7:09

yeah and you became apparent while working

7:11

on the stock i'm sure that much to change how you

7:13

thought about all of this or hey thought about

7:15

the urgency of the problem eternally

7:17

resonated with my experience of far as a parent

7:20

of a three year old my wife

7:23

and i are very fortunate lots of ways we

7:25

only have one kid at the moment we

7:27

live in an affordable place

7:29

have flexible schedules but it

7:31

still so overwhelming so

7:33

often and i constantly worry

7:36

that i'm not doing it right or that i'm focused

7:38

on the wrong things were

7:40

that i don't have the time to do

7:43

the , should be doing even if i understood understood

7:46

but those things aren't yeah said i'm not sure

7:48

i do you know absolutely

7:50

oh man i really relate to that yeah i'd spent about

7:53

five years working on this book and i you became a

7:55

pan probably for years into

7:57

it and it was very strange when i told

7:59

people i was working parenting books for that

8:01

beginning period of time and they said what

8:03

people are really gonna react you not being a pat yourself

8:07

i am really proud to say that having

8:09

a kid did not change the substance

8:11

of my arguments in any way having

8:14

, kid only reinforce my sense

8:16

that the stuff is really hard

8:18

and we really need more universal access

8:20

to professional support good tutors

8:22

teachers counselors coaches what

8:25

it did a wake me up to

8:27

is this more subtle parent

8:29

trap easily can feel threatened

8:32

are judged as a parent that

8:34

level of exhaustion and anxiety

8:37

the fear that a lot of parents

8:39

experience and that constant worry

8:41

that somebody's gonna realize

8:43

that you don't know what you're doing you're actually a bad parent

8:45

that sort of secret anxiety the sphere somebody

8:47

might call out his says the

8:50

powder keg man and i do feel that much

8:52

more personally now oh

8:54

man i learned the so quickly when

8:56

i became apparent started interacting with other parents

8:59

you simply cannot bring up

9:01

quests helps how to raise

9:03

kids are what we should be doing

9:06

in terms of what we should be teaching or howard teaching

9:08

it or whatever to other parents because near

9:11

, get so defensive about it because

9:13

it it's a reflection of something really deep

9:15

and or values and to question

9:18

or suggest anything seems like an attack

9:20

on something really whore

9:23

and it's just like you said it's a powder

9:25

keg it's really hard to talk about nc

9:27

i just learned to not do

9:29

, right if people get to make their own decisions

9:32

with their own children for better or worse and

9:34

structuralism anyway so yes

9:36

i hope the but entire help people feel

9:39

both more motivated that they're worth

9:41

to help do their best to build skills

9:44

in their child is really valuable and that

9:46

they're doing a real service not only to their child

9:48

but to the broader society and

9:50

just feel validated about that effort and that

9:53

sweat and all night labour that they put another

9:55

time but also feel little more

9:57

relaxed that of course you can't

9:59

do it

9:59

perfectly

10:01

because it's psychotically complicated and

10:04

we're asking too much of individual parents right now

10:06

and it's okay and maybe

10:08

it can even help parents cannot talk shop

10:11

a little more comfortable around like how to

10:13

do things better

10:14

what

10:16

the specific here in a you identify

10:18

two different kinds of parental responsibilities

10:21

and the buck one of them is caring the

10:23

other one is skill building and

10:26

these are different things but we combine them

10:28

under this com and on brawler of

10:30

parenting pulled his things apart

10:33

from a what is the difference between the two and

10:35

i really wanna focus on skills because

10:37

it's so important to the argument you make in the book that

10:39

skills are actually hugely

10:42

predictable success in life

10:44

yeah

10:45

the main difference between these two jobs

10:48

that are parents have caring and skill building is

10:50

that most of us can do a pretty

10:52

good job karen hearing it has

10:54

this egalitarianism feature is kind

10:56

of like driving a car buying people

10:59

who have scanners exceptional

11:01

cases they're missing limbs or something like that

11:03

most people and day to day life can drive their cars

11:06

and i think that's true for carrots

11:08

carrying i think about as

11:11

loving kids and stealing

11:14

personally invested in their success and

11:17

being there for them when they're sick or with they're

11:19

unhappy helping them last

11:21

and grow and navigate wise has best you

11:23

can carrying also involves

11:25

some of the most important the hearts

11:27

of our lives the things that give us joy and meaning

11:30

in that we try to pass onto our kids our

11:32

religion or face our

11:34

cultural norms about you know what

11:36

to expect some friendships and the

11:39

value of family and tailgating

11:41

and college football games and playing

11:43

tennis or cooking or a lot of the cultural

11:46

things that give our lives join meaning join

11:48

meaning of parents are able to do this and pass these

11:50

things under their kids and it's a big source of

11:52

fulfillment right as parents

11:54

i think there's this other

11:57

job

11:58

the parents

11:59

which you mentioned skill development skill

12:01

development i think of as

12:04

the set of things that is quite hard

12:08

for a large share parents to do successfully

12:10

on there this involves

12:13

reading and math but it also

12:15

involves lot of these other skills we talked about before

12:18

the emotional social and behavioral

12:20

skills that will set kids up to thrive

12:22

independently an adult and building these skills

12:25

with the right kinds of practice

12:27

and text meat and motivational

12:30

skills and materials

12:32

and resources and readings and this

12:35

stuff is complicated and we

12:37

only get a small

12:39

part of this from our existing key twelve

12:41

school system so that seems like

12:43

the key distinction to me what

12:46

kinds of parents are more equipped

12:49

to build these sorts of skills in

12:51

their kids mean is it about

12:53

money that about knowledge

12:56

or education is it about having more

12:58

time is it all

13:00

the above the

13:03

first thing i would say it's that it's pretty idiosyncratic

13:06

meaning that it's not like monolithically

13:09

this group can do it in this group can't do it in

13:11

every group there are some parents were going to excel

13:13

at this and some parents who are going to struggle with it's

13:15

that said there are a number of

13:17

things that correlate with his capacity

13:20

for this kind of feel that elements income

13:22

is one if you had income you're more

13:24

likely to able to take care this on your own

13:27

and

13:28

your own skills your own professional

13:30

skills as a parent and that often is correlated

13:32

with educational attainment and professional

13:34

experience so if you're a high income

13:37

manager you're more likely to have

13:39

the tools involved that help

13:41

you do a more successful job

13:43

at how skilled about if we think it's

13:45

house for development like a complicated professional

13:48

activity and something like being a lawyer

13:50

or practicing medicine or managing

13:53

a team at managing company or being or entrepreneur

13:56

or being an scientist or engineer if

13:58

you have

13:59

rich set of professional skills in another

14:02

domain some of those general

14:04

skills will carry over into the

14:06

other complicated professional domain

14:08

professional child's philadelphia the i think

14:10

those kinds of professional skills

14:13

are really white set you up

14:15

for success in this other domains not

14:17

necessarily by any means we know we all know

14:19

high income higher education super

14:22

successful professional parents who are not

14:24

good at helping your child build skills for

14:26

number of reasons and we know the reverse to people

14:28

who are not very successful professionally

14:31

or academically but are sensationally

14:33

good at building skills and children but

14:35

these are the coral yeah that

14:37

seems like an important feature of skills

14:40

as you're defining them they're taught

14:42

in learned yet and the kitten merely be bought

14:44

and sold yes cannot go on purchases

14:46

via amazon it's more complicated

14:49

than that yes exactly

14:52

gilda really an asset those skills you can

14:54

think of like stocks or bonds and a certain respect

14:56

their an asset that you pay up front price and

14:59

you get a flow of value over time with stocks

15:01

it's dividends and capital gains with bonds

15:03

it's interest payments if you buy a home

15:05

or a property you get the value from living

15:07

there or the rent from your tenants

15:10

with skills you incest up front and

15:12

then you get a flow of value from that skill

15:14

reading or numeracy or self discipline

15:17

and that value comes in the form of

15:19

a better job or a better

15:21

company if you start a business or better research

15:24

cures scientists and that happens

15:26

over the course of your life and

15:28

as you mentioned you can go to the york stock exchange

15:30

and buy a share of stock and you can go

15:33

to the treasury and by a third

15:35

of your bond but you can't go to a store and buy

15:37

the skill of self discipline and just plug it

15:39

into your child you have to teach

15:42

and learn it and that is a really complicated

15:44

process which involves a

15:46

lot of expertise them and that's why

15:48

teachers and tutors need training and experience

15:50

do a good job the possible that some of these

15:52

important skills com from experience or

15:55

even adversity and therefore therefore

15:57

that can't be taught as opposed to

15:59

directly the contracting skill

16:01

building professionals are expert practitioners

16:04

in a sense there's certainly

16:06

and aspect of kids have to figure things out

16:09

for themselves in some way but

16:11

i think we often overlooked the it's

16:13

huge amount of structure that parents'

16:15

place on that learning process if

16:18

a kid falls down the know they fail

16:20

it's has are they get broken up with by their boyfriend

16:23

or girlfriend or whatever and they're really struggling

16:25

the kind of support that

16:27

parents can provide through that process

16:30

can really enable whether they

16:32

kid learns the right lesson from it or

16:35

not it's , just the kids go

16:37

off into the world and magically fail

16:39

and succeed in learning grow that comes

16:41

from feeling comfortable and confident

16:43

and supported and even

16:46

more detailed kinds of support from parents in

16:48

terms of way

17:02

can you draw a straight line from the skills

17:04

learned in childhood to

17:06

income earned income adulthood

17:08

that coming up

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18:38

net zero carbon emissions the

18:41

road racial wealth gap zero

18:43

poverty those are ambitious goals

18:45

and to help reach them the world needs to take

18:48

action together cities

18:50

committed one trillion dollars and sustainable

18:52

financed by twenty thirty to facilitate

18:55

innovative solutions like renewable energy

18:57

and clean technology that

18:59

, will help provide access to essential

19:01

services like education healthcare

19:04

and affordable housing they're also helping

19:06

close the racial wealth gap and increase

19:08

economic mobility in the u s s

19:11

that's just a just having

19:13

ambitious goals is what helps the world make

19:15

meaningful progress and it's going

19:17

to take all of us working together to

19:19

make sure we continue to move in the right direction

19:22

because to address these worldwide problems it's

19:24

going to take worldwide action it

19:27

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the love of making for the for the love

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com slash e s g

19:49

can you draw a line

19:52

a straight line from skills

19:54

to income so it's clear

19:56

to listeners why acquiring

19:58

the right kinds of ski

19:59

those

20:01

lead to more financial success

20:03

absolutely we have measures

20:06

of skills that children have

20:08

developed created opportunities they've

20:10

had available to them one very

20:12

narrow measure of skill is

20:15

test scores and when you

20:17

give a standardized tests

20:19

two children and adolescents

20:21

when they're sixteen seventeen eighteen and they're just

20:24

transitioning from childhood

20:26

into early adulthood that single

20:29

test score the can explain three

20:31

quarters of the future income differences

20:34

between low income kids and

20:36

high income kids just by itself

20:39

that has were can also explain half

20:42

the future black white income gap that

20:44

these kids will face in adulthood so

20:47

that is very compelling evidence

20:49

that these skills are playing are first

20:51

order role in driving

20:53

lifelong differences between

20:57

class and racial groups in our country the

20:59

role of money as an advantage

21:01

here so a marquee

21:04

he can you talk in the book about how the

21:06

trap you're talking about really does reinforce

21:09

our the qualities in our society

21:11

and new also point out that

21:14

out that raised by the top twenty

21:16

five percent richest parents

21:18

will end up learning about fifty k

21:21

more per year than a child

21:23

raised by the bottom twenty five percent

21:25

poorest parents that's

21:27

pretty startling means do

21:30

you think is the idea that we

21:32

live in anything like a

21:34

meritocracy bullshit yeah

21:38

i do think it's bullshit i think it's not

21:40

that there's no return to effort and

21:43

itself initiatives and risk in our society i

21:45

really do think there is so it's not

21:47

total bullshit i don't want to claim that i think

21:49

sometimes progressive go way too far

21:51

out on that ledge and then people look around

21:54

them and they know people who work hard and people who don't

21:56

work hard and awesome the people who work hard

21:59

get better lives for them have and just

22:01

falsifies that idea that the structural

22:03

obstacles to making your

22:05

life better are so overwhelmingly

22:07

suffocating there's no such thing as effort or initiative

22:09

i don't think that's bullshit yes white when

22:12

we talk about the average differences by

22:14

class and race then i think

22:17

we do get into this idea that maritime are

22:19

meritocratic ideals are not really where

22:21

we would hope they would be that's just

22:23

got you mention that kids who grew up

22:25

with higher income families as

22:27

adults they wind up earning something like fifty

22:29

k more per year think their friends

22:32

you grew up in lower income families almost

22:34

her entire gap is due to the different

22:36

opportunities that these kids get in childhood

22:39

and so that is just directly in

22:41

contradiction with our american ideals of meritocracy

22:43

the i just wanna say i really do agree with

22:45

you there but there's an overly deterministic way

22:48

of talking about it that strips people

22:50

there agency when it in reality

22:52

you actually can do quite a bit

22:54

to overcome that hard work and effort

22:56

and willpower and all that these things to

22:59

matter but where you start goes

23:01

a long way in determining where

23:04

you end up in that matters to

23:06

and these things are both true the same time

23:08

and time and very complicated ways and

23:10

have to be addressed in a way that doesn't lot

23:13

out these distinctions or minimize

23:16

any of them yeah one

23:18

way i try to talk about this in terms of the class

23:21

difference the talk about the skills

23:23

that you wind up with through the opportunities that your

23:25

parents largely make available to you in childhood i

23:27

talk about that skill portfolio as a trust

23:29

fund and yeah i like them and i think we

23:31

all recognize that when a really high

23:33

income kid reaches adulthood with

23:36

the bank account with five million dollars in it

23:38

that their parents gave them whew just

23:41

explore life in take risks

23:43

and make the most of their opportunities we all recognize

23:45

that's a really unfair advantage that kind

23:47

of a common understanding in america we

23:50

don't necessarily resented we think parents might have might

23:52

have to do that we have ongoing debates about the

23:54

fairness of that but most

23:56

of don't have a five million on a bank account trust fund

23:58

to help us take risks

23:59

the same thing is happening this

24:02

invisible for regular upper middle class kids

24:05

it's this week that bank account is in the form of

24:07

our skill portfolio which

24:09

comes from the same kinds of parental advantages

24:11

that drive the trust fund it we just don't talk about

24:13

it or think about it in the same way so

24:16

hard to he that although

24:18

causal mechanisms here you know i'm in there so

24:20

many factors that influence

24:22

her life trajectory were were born

24:25

when were born our parents incomes

24:28

or access to resources school quality

24:31

for natural intelligence how

24:33

you separate all these things out or kenya

24:36

well there's this growing ability

24:39

to do this in social science that

24:41

that i think is this really exciting revolution

24:43

in our understanding of these issues it

24:46

comes from two things it comes from

24:48

the big data revolution which is giving us

24:50

sort of better scouts to

24:52

see the impacts of different

24:54

interventions of close in

24:56

, book i talk about one of these really excited datasets

24:59

that i was fortunate to work on the i rs

25:01

data banks which has

25:03

information which has haven't circumstances

25:06

and then connects them to their

25:09

adult outcomes in their thirties and increasingly

25:11

as time passes in their forties for

25:13

you know hand and hundreds of millions of kids

25:15

basically our kids in america we've never had

25:17

a dataset like that before in this country

25:20

the only datasets that connected child opportunities

25:23

to adult outcomes they typically had plus you thousand

25:25

kids so this is just a sea

25:27

change in what we can see in these kinds of data

25:30

and then we also have this parallel

25:32

revolution in our statistical methods called the credibility

25:34

revolution which is isolating

25:37

causal impacts of specific

25:39

childhood opportunities fine

25:41

kid long term outcomes and it's no longer

25:44

just a correlation which mixes

25:46

together all the murky factors you talked about a lot

25:48

of the times more and more it's about like okay

25:51

this kid had this specific teacher

25:53

when they were in third grade or this kid had

25:55

to specific state medicaid

25:57

program when they were five years old

25:59

and we can see the impact of

26:02

that specific intervention on

26:04

the child's long term outcome and what we're

26:06

finding is that the impacts are often

26:08

very large what is

26:10

in that iris day to day they might

26:12

be work with your then go wait why the hell is

26:14

that damn yeah what's in there were

26:17

to come from the iris

26:19

data bank was an initiative

26:21

that the iris started and it

26:23

was an effort to improve american

26:26

tax policy okay the whole

26:28

point of this resource is to approve

26:30

american tax policy but taxes

26:32

cover a wide range of human activity and

26:35

they contracted with some of our country's

26:37

best economists and they ill

26:40

with this group of consulting economists a

26:43

set of data that's really

26:45

put together american tax records

26:47

into a form that could be used

26:50

to more effectively you learn about and improve

26:52

the us tax system and as

26:54

part of that project linked

26:57

kudrin in the tax system because children

27:00

are claimed by their parents to get exemptions

27:02

and deductions and linked up those

27:04

children to their adult outcomes as they grew

27:06

and became taxpaying adults themselves

27:09

okay

27:10

so his parents can't reliably

27:13

handle teaching the necessary

27:15

skills to their children who

27:18

should do that and who's gonna pay for it and

27:21

i ask because you even not

27:23

to this in the book i think when

27:25

you described skill building most people

27:27

immediately think of school schools

27:30

have teachers and coaches and

27:33

counselors school seems

27:35

like precisely that kind

27:37

of skill building institution you're advocating

27:40

so where's the disconnect

27:42

what's wrong about this assumption that this is what

27:44

schools are for this is what schools do

27:46

that's a great instinct and you're right

27:48

school does have a lot of

27:50

the elements that are necessary to

27:52

help running school school hire professional teachers

27:56

to a small extent but increasingly the

27:58

her tutors the higher coach and

28:00

either exactly the kinds of professionals with training

28:03

and experience that we need

28:05

to build complicated skills and children the

28:07

problem that are key

28:10

twelve education system is kind of a sig

28:12

lease on the real scope

28:15

of the problem here we

28:17

talked earlier about how the way

28:19

kids build skills as they spend time they

28:22

learn they practice the imitates you

28:24

don't is by them so of skills happen

28:27

the in the medium of time it

28:29

really matters who is controlling children's time r

28:31

k twelve education system only controls

28:34

about ten percent of children's

28:36

time is it really that low that seems

28:38

really low yeah that's going to come as a shock

28:40

to a lot of your listeners ten percent yeah

28:42

let's go through where that comes from the

28:44

keto school system only starts at age five

28:47

the the first five years childhood no

28:49

public support in some limited

28:51

ways than one school starts

28:54

it's only operating about half of all

28:56

days each year there are weekends

28:59

spring break winter break summer break those

29:02

professional training days when you're a parent

29:04

you often thinking like cheese another day off

29:06

and yeah it adds up only sixty percent of

29:08

calendar days are in school typically and

29:11

then even on those days when was operating

29:13

it's only covering about covering about of the day if

29:16

you're a parent you feel this very this

29:18

really when you learn just to pick

29:20

up your kid to thirty and you're like wait

29:23

why add to figure out

29:25

the rest this afternoon myself while myself while a full time

29:27

job so when you add up all those

29:29

numbers are k twelve education system

29:31

is providing the right kinds of services but

29:33

only for a small fraction

29:35

of child that is an important

29:37

point my him in kids to spend the majority of the

29:39

time outside school and that

29:42

time is structuring governed by parents

29:45

and of parents don't have

29:47

time to maximize those windows

29:50

had skills in the know how to do

29:52

it or even if they do have those skills they don't have

29:54

to times yes that's a problem to

29:56

independently find the right early education

29:59

environment when a wide

30:01

range of quality across really learning environments

30:03

and our country especially if you're stay as every week

30:05

regulatory regime and then

30:07

to still up all those afternoons with something

30:10

enriching and productive and to scylla

30:12

father's summers with enriching productive

30:14

expensive summer camps all on

30:16

your own just kind of going into the

30:18

world and finding it do a lot of work

30:20

in labor and expertise and

30:22

expenditure that is a big part

30:25

of the unrealistic expectation of

30:27

he plays on parents net lead to these huge gaps

30:29

between rich kids and their kids when they transition

30:32

to adults something you learn about that

30:34

surprised me and maybe it shouldn't have

30:36

an era just including to it here

30:38

you know if you write that the skill

30:40

gaps children skill gaps by

30:42

class and race don't really grow

30:45

that much during the time

30:47

they spend and k through twelve schools

30:50

that , large skill gap really emerges

30:53

almost entirely before they

30:56

into the k through twelve system that

31:00

seems silly important

31:02

and i guess from

31:05

what i've always been when a lot of people

31:07

think which is that the lack of high

31:09

quality universal greek

31:12

a care in this country really is

31:14

a moral and if you're right

31:17

economic catastrophe that's

31:19

right i think we've had this assumption for a

31:21

long time that early childhood

31:24

the oven have a lot going on and

31:26

parents can kind of figure it out in the stakes are low

31:29

and for decades now we've known that's just not the

31:31

case and the fact that our public

31:33

education system starts at kindergarten

31:36

when these massive gap by class and

31:38

race have already emerged in both

31:40

academic and non academic skills as far

31:42

as we can measure them that's just seems

31:44

like we're atlanta sabotaging

31:46

ourselves as a country it seems like we're wasting

31:49

a lot of a lot of talent by delaying

31:51

back level of public support for so long

31:54

it may be impossible to give a satisfying

31:56

answer to this but do we have enough data now

31:58

to say that these girls the childhood

32:01

circumstances are is not the

32:03

most important determinant of long

32:05

term success certainly

32:07

one of them

32:09

yes we absolutely have the data to show

32:11

that this is a major driver

32:13

of differences in lifetime outcomes

32:16

by class and race in this country

32:18

i wanted the highlight here that we

32:21

don't necessarily understand everything that we should

32:23

about how to fill the gaps we know a lot

32:25

about how to provide good early education programs

32:27

especially for willing to fund them but

32:30

, are still things that we need to learn

32:32

there are some examples of early learning programs that

32:34

haven't delivered the kinds of results we want but

32:37

overall i think we are in a great

32:39

position to make this kind of investment going forward

32:42

when we choose to do it politically

32:45

just ask me that the going to have his

32:47

three year old and i'm just wondering what

32:50

are the sorts of skills i could be teach or

32:52

someone could be teaching it could have you're

32:54

talking pre talking and we're talking before

32:57

five years old i guess right and would

32:59

have the skills ideally kids

33:01

this age could be learning should

33:04

be learning i don't think we know exactly

33:07

the laser sharp pinpointing

33:09

skills that three year old need to be learning

33:11

in the exact right way to do it i think we

33:13

should have more research that gives

33:15

us more of that precision but ,

33:18

think the level of variation in quality

33:20

in terms of just having an enriching age appropriate

33:22

learning environment for kids in

33:25

this country has enormous so you might be worried about

33:27

the exact right activity to be doing with your kid

33:30

city be focusing on self

33:32

control or she be focusing on language

33:34

with that extra half an hour that you spend with

33:36

your kid but really there are really there of kids spend

33:38

a lot of time watching tv or just on

33:40

an i pad or the

33:42

in taken care of largely by older siblings

33:44

who is kind of distracted and not necessarily interacting

33:47

with them in a conversation all playful

33:49

way some of it is just making sure kids

33:51

have somebody's paying attention

33:53

to them and talking to them after level

33:56

and reinforcing the

33:58

lessons they're teaching them so with their

34:00

hyperactive playing and

34:03

keeping them safe and making them feel

34:05

attached and know that the main adults

34:07

in their life on a day to day basis is trustworthy

34:10

and space those are all things

34:12

that we sometimes take for granted but are quite

34:14

complicated to deliver socially

34:16

as scale a lotta what you're doing

34:19

this book is i think pushing back against

34:21

and intuitions that a

34:23

lot of us have or poking

34:27

holes and assumption that used

34:29

to be true but really aren't anymore

34:31

indy sorts of discussions you often

34:34

hear people make arguments about

34:36

resources and the gaps

34:39

between private and public schools

34:41

are for tween public schools and

34:44

high and low income areas and

34:46

the argument as always will we got

34:48

a shrink that gap we gotta

34:52

spend more money more

34:54

equitably what is this

34:56

line of argument

34:58

the missing

34:59

because the public education system is the main

35:01

way that we try to solve this problem we

35:04

focus too much of our debate

35:07

on further equalizing

35:09

that very limited system so

35:12

already when kids go to school today there in

35:14

by far the most he gallas harry in

35:16

part of their childhoods the spending gap between

35:19

rich kids in four kids when they're at school

35:21

is approximately zero the day that's

35:23

gonna shock lot of people but it's been true for decades

35:26

say that one more time the spending gap

35:28

in terms of hateful public resources at school

35:30

that headed by rich kids and for kids the

35:33

our country today is approximately

35:35

zero it wasn't always that way

35:37

in the beginning of the century wasn't that way but

35:40

after the school finance equalisation

35:42

movement that took place that shifted a lot of funding

35:45

to the state and federal level by

35:47

now rich and poor kids when they go to school

35:49

for that ten percent of their childhood there in

35:52

relatively egalitarianism

35:54

garments in terms of the resources that are invested now

35:56

are you talking about just public schools are deceiving

35:58

true public

35:59

other shows okay yeah that's it that's an

36:02

important caveat it isn't an aquarium not

36:04

a ten percent of kids issue or in private schools

36:06

that if you look at the resources that

36:09

families spend on educational the

36:11

activity computers and tutors

36:13

and test prep summer camp

36:16

rich kid get sixteen times more

36:18

of that then poor kids privately

36:21

outside of school so i wish our debate

36:24

the an equalizing opportunity focus

36:27

less on further

36:29

optimizing the equality

36:31

in our existing k twelve system and

36:34

started expanding more into these others

36:36

huge gaps in childhood were

36:38

inequality is really on another level they

36:41

anything with we see it in our public school system

36:43

and we're thing that that general

36:45

picture was true for most

36:48

of american history in recent

36:50

decades the federal government has really stepped

36:52

up and run a lot more money

36:54

at schools and state governments and sick

36:56

and with the and shrunk this gap but

37:00

what you're saying is no matter how you look at

37:02

it the real divide

37:04

that divides that really matter long term

37:07

or that happens outside of school within families

37:09

and it rains untouched by oldest funding

37:12

and all these efforts to asked her

37:14

public schools yes and that's something we

37:16

haven't reckon with any applications that are suit

37:18

that's right so why would we like his show up

37:20

to kindergarten with see huge gaps

37:23

and deficits and disadvantages and

37:25

then start trying to address that why

37:27

wouldn't we level the playing field from eight zero

37:29

five by providing universal

37:32

access to high quality learning environments that

37:34

huge gaps aren't something that we have to

37:37

address and remediate with

37:39

, funding formulas after that

37:42

age much less successfully successfully

37:44

would we focus entirely on

37:46

within school problems when kids have long

37:48

summer breaks were radical inequality

37:50

reemergence were kids have afternoons

37:53

were radical inequality reemerge as we

37:55

really need to be silly and those gaps

37:58

were inequality is

37:59

enormous rather than six eating

38:02

on what is currently are quite narrow

38:04

cool abdicate while system the frustrating

38:06

thing for me at least his dad and i know

38:09

you know this because you addressing

38:11

the doctor is a big chunk of the country

38:13

that hears the things

38:16

were saying and immediately

38:18

thanks the government nanny

38:20

state euro style socialism

38:23

yeah now i happened to believe they're good

38:25

moral and political reasons to

38:28

do what we're talking about doing

38:32

but if that doesn't move you

38:34

out there are so it's some other than

38:36

moved by those sorts of arguments the

38:38

you point out that they're also really sound

38:40

economic reasons to

38:43

do this to really change how

38:45

we think about raising

38:47

children to make that case

38:49

is briefly as you can sure i

38:51

think the economic arguments are interview one

38:54

useful tool to speak tool conservatives

38:56

and small government types out there i

38:58

think

38:59

a lot of these programs early education

39:01

tutoring counseling they can yield

39:03

big long term economic dividends in terms of

39:06

you've got to be more independent they earn more in their

39:08

jobs they start more companies they have higher incomes

39:10

and they pay more tax revenue and that impact

39:12

turns out to be so big that the programs wind up paying

39:14

for themselves many of these child development program

39:17

but i don't think that's really speaking

39:20

to some of the skepticism that you highlight

39:22

here which here which it's really good to highlight this nanny

39:24

state idea and this idea that we're

39:26

america we don't want to become denmark's i

39:29

want to highlight that if you accept the argument at

39:31

a book is that child development is hard

39:33

and parenting a lot more professional support it doesn't

39:35

mean we need a big government nanny state

39:38

here's what it means it means we should be putting

39:40

public funding into helping

39:43

all parents access the kind

39:45

of local experts that

39:47

rich parents already access nobody

39:50

will for be forcing parents to do things it

39:52

means that all parents will now be able

39:55

to pay for excellent high quality

39:57

early learning and brand maybe at your local church

40:00

heading on how the laws are written all

40:02

, will be able to help their kid get

40:04

a private matter after school there's

40:06

nothing big government or nanny state about that this

40:08

could be somebody who use that and you work

40:11

with your school to get somebody you trust

40:13

separate and your child through their algebra one

40:15

homework this is not some crazy

40:17

government bureaucrat taking over your choice now

40:21

i think back and speak to people more than the

40:23

economic returns in many of his guests it's just

40:25

giving people more power as parents

40:27

to do what rich parents are already doing

40:30

the sequel getting out here and i guess i'm

40:32

just sort of worrying allowed but this

40:34

is something i've found myself thinking about

40:36

alive especially in in the last several

40:38

years and i'll put it you

40:41

is it possible that were just too libertarian

40:45

as a society to individualistic

40:47

to collectively address the

40:49

problem like this you know me we have a very

40:51

sort of zero sum approach to life

40:54

here right and they're i think they're lot of people who

40:57

don't care about someone

40:59

elses church and right he he they're

41:02

trying to get their children every

41:04

advantage they can so that they can

41:06

win him at this game of

41:08

life here

41:09

what the hell to do about that

41:11

i don't think our society is to

41:14

libertarian or small

41:16

government to make big

41:19

additional investments in child development the

41:21

proof of that is right in front of us it's called medicare

41:24

and social security people used

41:26

to take care of their own parents the same

41:28

way they take care of their own kid and a result

41:30

of that was mass elderly

41:32

poverty and very unequal

41:35

disease burden we fix

41:37

that together as a society by

41:39

making big investments in

41:41

these programs social security and medicare today

41:44

elderly poverty as much more rare and

41:47

there's much more equal access to

41:49

healthcare among our elderly we

41:51

have to start realizing that

41:54

we need programs have a similar

41:57

magnitude to tackle

41:59

this huge towel my problem

42:01

they won't feel any more encroaching on your

42:03

personal liberties then social security

42:05

and medicare feel right now do you wanna

42:08

go to the doctor the only reason you can

42:10

for millions of americans is that we

42:12

have made the collective decision to

42:15

embrace medicare the that all

42:17

americans have access to modern professional

42:19

healthier childhood , the

42:21

same way do you want your child's

42:23

get literacy tutoring because they're

42:25

struggling with reading new falling behind falling their

42:27

third grade class well with

42:29

the kinds of programs that i'm advocating

42:32

for this book

42:33

you could

42:34

there's like grandma can go to the doctor

42:36

your child can go get the tutoring that

42:38

they need without making your family

42:41

go bank the and amending thing is

42:44

this if i were going to pay for this

42:46

one way or the other thing a paper on the front end

42:49

or the back and i did you continue

42:51

to produce young people

42:53

who don't have the skills to succeed then

42:56

end up not contributing as much to the economy the

42:58

end up having more needs and greater

43:00

dependencies and those things have to be

43:02

addressed mom where the other as opposed to getting

43:05

people to skills they need to succeed and

43:07

prosper and flourishing contribute to their

43:09

communities and economy in ways that we're down

43:11

to all of our benefits in the and

43:14

but it's sort of long term arguments

43:17

can , difficult makes politically

43:20

yeah i think

43:21

what you need is not arguments and persuasion

43:23

what you need is a a way to get children

43:26

and parents more political power now

43:28

you don't get these kinds of policies by persuading

43:30

people necessarily you get them by marshaling

43:33

the political power of the most direct

43:35

beneficiaries and right now elderly people

43:37

people over sixty five have that with a r p

43:40

and there are retired said many of them are retards

43:42

they have more time to engage

43:44

in the kind of activism there's nothing like the a

43:46

r p for children and parents and their really

43:48

city at so damn

43:50

true and actually send thought about it until

43:53

i was reading your book and children are

43:55

actually by a mile our

43:57

biggest disenfranchised my

43:59

the and because of that

44:02

of that that we adults

44:04

have to mobilize for them we have

44:06

the lobby for them and do

44:09

point out that we've become a geriatrics society

44:12

where we over spend on old

44:14

people because old people vote and

44:17

we under invest in

44:20

young people which seems totally

44:22

insane just totally insane

44:24

that's where we are

44:25

right i mean if you had to pick a direction

44:28

to be asymmetric in you'd

44:30

probably want to err on the side of benefiting children

44:33

rather than old people but we don't have to

44:35

make exactly that kind of harsh trade

44:37

off in our society we could have to

44:39

kinds of programs that are needed to benefit

44:41

children and parents without stripping

44:43

medicare and social security of their funding or anything

44:45

terrible like that's because those are also really important

44:48

programs when we think

44:50

about how he could scale up these kinds

44:52

of programs that children and parents

44:54

really need i call them family care in the bucket

44:56

and it's really just early education

44:58

tutoring counseling better health

45:00

care for children better college preparation

45:03

and college transition assistance

45:05

and apprenticeships

45:07

and vocational training assistance it's all these things

45:09

that happen outside of our current a top system we

45:12

could wind up furthering

45:15

a lot of conservative goals with a program

45:17

like this as you say it would reduce dependency

45:19

on government it would also reduce crime

45:22

and it doesn't mean our country would have to

45:24

wind up looking like denmark and sweden because

45:27

we could retain the more individualistic

45:30

social welfare and that that we have for adults in this

45:32

country and just embrace

45:35

the greater public investment and making

45:37

sure all children are getting the kinds of

45:39

opportunities they need early in their lives

45:42

so we could still have still have american

45:44

system is just that we would

45:46

the harvesting a lot more

45:48

of our talent and making

45:51

sure making lot more of our citizens are able

45:53

to thrive

46:08

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46:10

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46:12

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47:00

nora what me of biggest medical

47:02

scandal indicates the data behind

47:04

the most influential theory of what causes

47:06

alzheimers disease of may have been manipulated

47:09

the study that morning

47:12

don't know what the results

47:15

if it turns out to be

47:16

let me about a billion dollars

47:19

and us taxpayer money use for alzheimer's

47:21

research over the past sixteen years

47:23

the mayor been for nothing

47:24

how alzheimer's research recover

47:26

from a decade and a half more wild goose

47:28

chase and last opera

47:35

this week and unexplainable a field

47:37

of alzheimer's research reckons with the revolution

47:39

that evidence in a key study may

47:42

have been manipulated what

47:44

does this mean for over a decade's worth of

47:46

research what does it mean for

47:48

the families of alzheimer's patients follow

47:52

unexplainable wherever you listen

47:54

new episodes everyone

48:05

what worries me is as you were saying so

48:08

much turns on what happens before

48:11

the even get the public school

48:15

the concern for me there that we don't

48:17

even have the infrastructure in place where we don't

48:19

have universal pre k or anything like

48:21

that right and so does any we'd

48:24

have to build it from scratch hardy

48:26

node where we'd even start there a

48:28

big investment like this would be scaled up gradually

48:31

now it wouldn't be like tomorrow every

48:33

kid can start going to preschool we'd say is it an probably

48:35

for the kids who need it most first

48:38

we already had headstart which is decades

48:40

of experience in this area new wouldn't necessarily

48:42

build the new program the model

48:44

of head start because had started is very expensive

48:47

and it's a good program and it as a lot

48:49

of long term benefits but for universal

48:51

child care we probably want to build on the existing

48:54

private nonprofit ecosystem all

48:56

over the country there

48:57

churches and public schools

49:00

and independent nonprofit organizations

49:02

that offer childcare it's just that right now only

49:05

some middle class and upper

49:07

class parents can really contribute afford it

49:09

and ah some states that are making big

49:12

progress in this area both conservative

49:14

states and liberal states them it's

49:16

a really wonderfully bipartisan

49:19

area so i don't think would be starting from

49:21

scratch i think we could make see huge headway

49:23

inside to ten years wondering

49:26

you to say that schools

49:28

k to twelve schools could the

49:31

much more effective in building skills

49:33

your teachers and coaches and counselors could do

49:35

a whole lot more but they need

49:37

more access to children's time

49:40

to kids time would

49:42

that look like longer school days you

49:44

are breaks smaller class sizes

49:47

me what are we talking about here there

49:50

is a long tradition in america of

49:52

calling for the schools to

49:55

manage a larger share of children time it's called

49:57

the community school move and it's

49:59

arguing kids should go to school

50:01

and have a happy enriching place

50:03

to be they're basically the

50:05

forty nine to five this

50:08

, mean the kids will just be doing extra

50:10

homework or cramming more or

50:13

getting exhausted when they're at at

50:15

school all day we have to really take that

50:17

concern into account that is a real problem

50:19

problem might be that kids need to be

50:22

able to rest quietly into their own thing in a safe

50:24

environment for a period of time and then recharge

50:26

and do something more structured it might

50:28

be that some kids get tutoring

50:30

some kids extra time it might be that some kids

50:32

do something that they love like be learn how to do

50:35

audio engineering or they do the

50:37

and are they practice design

50:40

or something that just interests them and doesn't

50:42

tire them out the , thing is

50:44

that parents shouldn't have to do a lot of

50:46

research and show

50:48

a lot of proactive initiative and

50:51

weed out the bad providers from the

50:53

good providers with a lot of insight

50:56

it should just be parents tenor automatically

50:58

sign their kids up for educational the

51:00

institution and schools can manage

51:03

a much larger share of children time and productive healthy

51:05

happy with what do you think

51:07

is the biggest obstacle preventing

51:10

parents from organizing have

51:12

an interest group which they are mean look i know lots of

51:14

parents some of them make lots of money and some of

51:16

them don't and they all are

51:18

struggling in different ways to figure this

51:20

thing out why can't

51:22

parents behave like a politically mobilized

51:25

interest group in the way they really

51:27

need to in order to change this

51:30

the biggest structural factors probably that they're so

51:32

busy and tired all the time you know here

51:34

you have a three year old my have a two year old and it's

51:36

like we're not looking for an extra hobby

51:39

to help organize something year compared

51:41

to retirees who structurally have an advantage

51:44

there they are many of them are looking for some way to contribute

51:46

to their communities and political organizing is

51:48

one way to do that but i don't think that

51:50

is permanent roadblock on this i

51:52

think there is a real arbitrage opportunity

51:54

here i think there's a missing institution

51:57

that some entrepreneurial people could

52:00

provide his parents could

52:02

sign up for this easily

52:04

and conveniently at the pediatrician's

52:06

office at the grocery store at the

52:08

child care center where they already are going

52:11

and they could sign up for something like

52:14

the a rpf but for parents that

52:16

offered them discounts on their

52:18

target or walmart or costco

52:21

purchases or memberships are registries are there

52:23

amazon registry discounts on formula

52:26

diaper his car seats strollers

52:28

if parents could do that which is the a r p

52:31

strategy i think they would

52:32

then i think there's no deep reason why this can't

52:35

happen

52:35

i don't see when either i just i don't know why

52:38

they'll it hasn't yes

52:40

it's very fragmented ecosystem

52:42

when the a rp began there was not

52:44

thousands of elderly advocacy

52:46

groups each with their own turf and their

52:48

own agendas and their own political leanings they

52:50

kind of had a more more green

52:53

faster to organize and and that

52:55

was big advantage today which not agreeing

52:57

pastor it's a busy ecosystem we

53:00

have to get creative and think through that there are

53:03

organizations such as children now in california

53:05

that is trying to coordinate

53:07

the is fragmented groups to speak with

53:10

one unified political voice but

53:12

i do think there's still a need for this a

53:14

rp like organization and it could happen

53:16

and i hope somebody makes it happen if that's one thing that comes

53:19

from this book that i i will just be so happen well

53:21

it seems to me there's a mega

53:23

ton of untapped political energy here for

53:26

sure yeah yes it's just something

53:28

that millions and millions of

53:30

americans across oliver political

53:33

cleavages political think can relate

53:35

to and could in principle

53:37

get behind and damn it they should they

53:39

really should the key thing is that has to

53:41

stay bipartisan and nonpartisan it

53:43

the arab he does not go out on

53:45

a limb and talk about gun

53:47

rights b a r p does not go out

53:49

on a limb and talk about critical race there's

53:52

whatever organizations emerged to try to

53:54

represent parents politically and sell this power

53:56

vacuum representing children they will

53:58

have to remain non hardison and

54:00

shoot discipline and not engage

54:02

in every little culture war that comes their

54:04

way here , but we

54:07

shouldn't global pandemic

54:09

immediately became a partisan

54:11

issue that , so it's

54:13

it's hard to imagine anything not somehow

54:16

being co opted by that

54:19

silliness but i

54:21

think you're right i think the key is offering

54:23

practical benefits to individual parents yeah

54:26

it's hard to get to eighty a logical when

54:28

somebody is offering you a cheaper way to get

54:30

strollers and baby formula you

54:32

know it's just it's useful to you you know that

54:34

they understand they're not speaking to you

54:36

on some crazy political battlefield

54:38

their to saying hey we understand your needs were

54:41

here to help fulfill your practical needs and

54:43

we're also going to go to bat for you publicly

54:46

i just have to ask because

54:49

the reality is that the changes were talking about our

54:51

big and complicated and politically difficult

54:54

which of course isn't an argument against

54:56

fighting for them but in

54:58

the more medium term parents

55:01

are doing the best they can

55:03

to give their kids the best shot they

55:05

can to , any advice

55:07

for them now or maybe places

55:09

they can go for guidance

55:11

on how to help their kids learn

55:14

the skills they need

55:16

here's what i would say it's something that i have to tell myself

55:19

as apparent as well i

55:21

am often tempted as a parent to

55:23

think well how

55:25

bad can this be you know i'm doing the best i can

55:28

it's that dad different from want my parents

55:30

did if you're not okay

55:33

and was gonna relax i'm just gonna go to the nearest

55:35

daycare center that it on my way to work in

55:37

just i'm sure it's fine i'm

55:40

just gonna have let the schools manage

55:42

my child's education you know their professional

55:44

school the teacher seem nice i'm sure it's fine it's

55:47

often feel this temptation the

55:49

just relax and we do

55:51

have to relax on some level we can drive yourself

55:53

crazy will become stressed out and useless bites

55:56

i don't think it's right

55:58

the fall into this trap of sort

56:01

of placating ourselves and trying to

56:03

com or anxiety unfortunately

56:06

raising children does matter all

56:08

these interventions that we're talking about

56:11

they do matter and when we get the data to compare

56:13

children who get them into don't get them later in life

56:15

we see that it has pretty big implications

56:18

and so even if it's stressful and scary

56:20

try to cut yourself some slack realize you're

56:22

not gonna be able to do everything you want and that's okay

56:25

because the burden on you is unrealistic

56:27

as we've been talking about by don't

56:30

necessarily

56:31

hate that fear and anxiety and

56:34

step back from your pro active

56:36

role as a pair you really can

56:38

make a big difference in your child's life and

56:41

you should be proud of doing your best at

56:43

that in every way you can and be angry

56:46

if you can't do certain things that you know are valuable and

56:49

the that anger available as political

56:51

energy when the time comes it's

56:54

one of the city's feelings you powers

56:56

apparent i know lot of pants listening wonder stand

56:59

this that feeling that you're not doing

57:01

you could be doing to give your

57:04

kid a shot at being successful

57:06

to give them a some kind of comparative advantage

57:08

or at least two not disadvantage

57:11

in now yeah that's a terrible

57:13

feeling and it's made worse by the

57:15

fact that often there's only so

57:17

much you can oh

57:19

right yeah and it is a sort of this is the parents

57:22

have right we need help

57:24

and we're not getting it

57:26

yeah what would you say to apparent

57:29

sixty years ago the for

57:31

social security and medicare we're

57:33

big programs and you say hey i

57:36

have an aging parent myself they're in their sixties

57:38

and seventies they're having health problems

57:41

that they don't have a pension they're struggling to get

57:43

by in their one bedroom apartments what

57:45

should i do to help that person the

57:47

answer is whatever you can

57:50

but we really need more social support

57:52

like you can't necessarily support your

57:54

aging parent you can't necessarily access

57:56

physicians and surgeons to help them access

57:59

modern medical care it's expensive and

58:02

we really need institutions to

58:04

help address these problems and fortunately

58:06

and it's stressful and you should be angry and

58:09

that anger helps get as so security and medicare

58:12

because people voted