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1:26

Hey friends, this is Jason Talley, the audio

1:28

engineer for The Happy Hour. Jamie recently released

1:30

a statement on Instagram that she is stepping

1:32

away from podcasting for a while. As

1:34

a team, we have decided to air the six conversations

1:36

that were already recorded. We decided to do this for

1:38

a couple of reasons. First, we want to honor the

1:40

guests, we want to honor the projects that they have

1:42

worked on, and we also really want to honor the

1:44

stories that they're sharing. If this is your first time

1:47

to listen to The Happy Hour or you've been with

1:49

Jamie since the beginning, thank you. You're

1:51

the reason this community really is so great.

1:53

We want you to keep having your own

1:55

Happy Hour with your friends, reading new and exciting

1:57

books, and finding new things that you're loving all day.

1:59

the time. And on behalf of Jamie and the whole

2:01

team, we love you. Tasha,

2:06

welcome back to the happy hour. It

2:08

is so good to be here. Oh my

2:11

goodness. You know, this

2:13

is the month of May. Okay. And

2:18

this is our 10 year happy

2:20

hour birthday anniversary month. Oh

2:22

my goodness. And

2:24

I remember when you know, I'm like,

2:27

I'm thinking back. Like, I think when

2:29

we first met, you just started

2:31

like you were, I had literally

2:33

just started. I forget what my

2:35

original episode, what number was I?

2:38

Well, you know what? I was going to talk about

2:40

it because you were within the first year. And so

2:43

you were episode 44, 44, and then here we are.

2:49

Let me tell you, I have it

2:51

written down right here. This episode is episode 673.

2:53

Oh my gosh. Okay.

2:59

I need to, because this is

3:01

my third time. Yeah. Then you've been on it.

3:03

Yeah. Yeah. I would have to look for the

3:05

other one. Okay. So we're going to get all

3:07

those numbers because I'm like, okay, that's my numbers

3:09

for the Jamie show, for the Jamie show. I

3:11

love it. Okay. So I want

3:13

to talk about the first, first of all,

3:15

okay. I have missed you because

3:19

with everything that's happened in my

3:21

life, one of the losses is that I

3:23

dropped out of seminary. And so that is

3:25

a huge loss in my life.

3:27

Seminary dropout. I got to see you. Oh,

3:30

I know. And just to

3:33

be honest, like it has

3:35

like, you are missed. Just

3:39

your, you know, your

3:41

crookedness, my lord, I don't know what we're

3:43

doing. I like our, our zooming in from

3:45

zooming in from the plane or from the

3:48

airport or from a meeting or, I mean,

3:50

you know, cause we have to do, but

3:52

we have to do to get it done.

3:54

Like we're doing seminary in the midst

3:56

of life. And so just

3:58

to zoom in and you. You always kind

4:00

of made me feel seen in a sense because

4:02

you're like, okay, well, what are they talking about?

4:05

Like, I'm like, me either. Me either. So

4:07

that is this. You're

4:11

almost done with a year of school.

4:13

How's the buster bed? It's

4:16

been great. I, you would have loved it

4:18

because we have a professor who cracks

4:20

us up and then we talk in

4:22

the chat, right? We talk in the

4:24

chat and she's, she's, she's a

4:27

little more mature. And so she didn't

4:29

know about the, because you know, this zoom thing

4:31

is all new to her and

4:33

the moodle and all that is new to her.

4:36

And so we would always say stuff in chat,

4:38

right? Instead of doing it on our,

4:40

in our group, our thread, our text

4:42

thread, I'm telling, I'm telling all the

4:44

secrets. And one day she was like, someone

4:47

posted something in the chat and she said, Oh, what

4:49

did you say? Something can say

4:51

to her or whatever. And then we were like, Oh no, she

4:53

done, she done learned how

4:55

to do the chat on zoom. And

4:58

she is so dear. We've had the best

5:02

professors, you know, and I haven't

5:04

really talked a lot even personally

5:06

about my experience with it. I wanted

5:08

to kind of give it a year

5:10

before I really

5:12

started talking about first of all, I'm

5:14

like, you know, cause sometimes I'm leery

5:16

about like seminaries and what professors and

5:18

what, you know, and we've

5:21

had some really great professors that

5:24

I just feel that, that truly

5:27

love Jesus and they're like

5:29

theologically and biblically sound. So

5:33

I've been really enjoyed her. She has a

5:35

book on prayer. It's actually pretty good. She

5:40

now, she's like a new Testament scholar. And

5:43

I think a she's a

5:45

new Testament scholar and I want

5:47

to say I'm Paulinean scholar. I'm

5:49

not sure, but she, she's smart.

5:51

She's smart. She's smart. I was

5:53

there for, I don't know. I got a handful of

5:56

classes in the drop and I remember she was like,

5:59

wow, she's going tell us like it is.

6:01

When you talk about the Zoom, it's almost like when

6:03

we were younger, passing notes in class and then the

6:05

teacher pulls it up and you're like, oh lord, she

6:07

about to read our book. That's what she

6:09

did, but she's so sweet and she's

6:11

so dear and like, you

6:15

know, I'm learning so much, you know, and

6:17

sometimes you think that you're like, oh lord,

6:19

like I just want, I didn't know this,

6:21

like oh lord. You know,

6:24

so it's really, it's a, I think

6:26

seminary is affirming, but it's

6:28

also taking what you know

6:31

and just expounding on it,

6:33

like contextualizing it also, and

6:36

just the history part and just stuff that

6:38

you, you know, if I'm not a,

6:41

like, like there's just

6:43

so much like deep studying,

6:45

like background studying that

6:47

you need to know to really also help

6:49

the scriptures come alive, or you can have

6:51

really, you know, you can exegete the text,

6:54

you know, incorrectly, which what

6:57

we see happening, like the things I

6:59

think the problems, why I have this

7:01

book is exactly why

7:03

someone did some horrible,

7:06

harm and nautical study, and like,

7:09

and just kind of interpret the text the

7:11

way they wanted it to interpret it for

7:13

their own benefit, and

7:16

that is what we're dealing with, and we're

7:18

still dealing with that, you know, with the

7:21

rise of a lot of, you know, nationalism

7:23

and all the things which are contrary to

7:25

the teaching of Jesus, and so, you

7:28

know, you read scripture and you're like, do

7:31

people, do we know Jesus?

7:33

Like, I mean, like, we

7:35

have, yeah, it's like really

7:38

some dissonance, like cognitive dissonance,

7:40

like, that we really don't

7:43

know, like just being

7:45

in the class we're taking is

7:47

the New Testament gospels and

7:50

acts, and just, you know, we've

7:52

been in Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John, just

7:54

studying that, first of all, I

7:56

love Jesus even more now.

8:00

And because when you're reading

8:03

through the Gospels, you

8:08

get even more familiar with

8:10

the character of Christ. So it just

8:12

makes you fall in love with Jesus

8:15

like over and over again, like just

8:17

seeing how he was so counter-cultural and

8:19

the things that were meant and what

8:22

was said, all these different things.

8:24

I think I'm doing a talk tonight and I'm

8:26

gonna be talking about the Sermon on the Mount

8:28

and just that sets

8:30

the blueprint of how we are

8:32

to live. I

8:37

love hearing about your

8:39

seminary and I

8:42

think that one day I'll be back. I was so

8:44

excited about it. But

8:47

we can help you. I remember when everything happened.

8:49

Okay, yes, yes, yes. I remember when everything happened.

8:51

I remember Vivian reached out and said that our

8:53

professor from last semester had like

8:55

came in and prayed for me and

8:58

my family and I just felt so

9:00

loved by that. And so it was...

9:04

We will both be spokespersons for having

9:06

a cohort to go through seminary development.

9:09

It is. It's a game changer. I've

9:11

tried this a couple of times and

9:13

just couldn't do it. I was at Bethel, it

9:15

was just doing it by myself, not in

9:18

community. It was just

9:20

really difficult and really

9:22

even though accountability like now, it's

9:25

like you have sisters that are dealing with so

9:28

much life and

9:30

we're praying for each other, getting

9:32

to know each other. And

9:34

just like when everything kind of happened,

9:38

like everybody was like, let's pray.

9:41

Nobody is like, no questions.

9:43

Just like we're praying. A professor came

9:45

in and prayed and covered. I

9:48

mean, girl, let me tell you, Jamie, you were covered

9:50

from the ruda to the tuna. I

9:52

love it. You know? I love it, I love it. And

9:55

I felt it and I knew it. Yeah. I

9:57

knew it, I knew it. And still praying and still praying and

9:59

still praying. They're so kind. Okay,

10:01

speaking of the first time you were on, I

10:03

remember the first time we had a conversation and

10:06

the way that you and I met was through our mutual

10:08

friend Jenny Allen and I believe

10:10

you write about our group I read it in this

10:13

book but also in the book Be the Bridge where

10:15

you started what you didn't know was gonna be Be

10:17

the Bridge and we had a group that gathered and

10:20

I was fortunate to be a part of that group

10:22

and that's where we met but I remember when you

10:24

came on I Had

10:26

to check my facts this morning to see if

10:28

this was true because I remember thinking something happened

10:31

the day I released Tasha's episode her very first

10:33

episode and I went back and I looked up

10:36

and the day your episode released which was episode

10:38

44 it released on June 18th of 2015

10:41

and I went back and I

10:43

was like something happened something happened And that was the

10:45

day of the Charleston shooting. Yes

10:48

Yeah, I remember when your episode released and

10:51

I thought I mean we didn't

10:53

obviously know what was gonna happen I

10:55

didn't the shooting didn't happen and then I

10:57

released the episode like it came out that same day and

11:00

I remember thinking Tasha when that happened like

11:03

God, I think you're going to do something with

11:08

Voices talking about racial injustice

11:10

within the church within white

11:14

women black women and brown

11:16

women and Asian women and

11:18

it just It

11:20

was a tragedy. Yeah, I felt like

11:22

the happy hour is going to use

11:24

its voice For

11:28

Speaking up for people who have a voice. Yeah,

11:30

when I'm speaking up for people without a voice

11:32

who have a voice Right, but are not being

11:35

heard. Yeah, and I'm just

11:37

telling you you have been wind beneath my wings

11:39

in so many times And

11:41

instances when I have taken heat for speaking

11:43

I have and and again, you know I

11:45

have children in my family who are black

11:47

and so I just want to say you

11:49

being on the happy hour is one Of

11:51

the greatest gifts I've had in 2015 and

11:53

in Yes,

11:58

it's just so like when I I

12:00

started, you know, I tell the story a lot. I

12:02

was just a local church girl trying

12:05

to lend out scripture and lend, you

12:08

know, communal and say,

12:11

hey, this is some things that are just

12:13

pain in me. Like these are some things that

12:15

we need to pay attention to. I am

12:18

being hurt and I

12:20

want us to have dialogue on how

12:24

we can prevent this harm

12:26

from happening and, you know,

12:28

and just have a conversation about it. And

12:30

that's really what this was about. Like I'm

12:32

trying to make sense of the world and

12:34

like why aren't Christians leading

12:36

in this? You know,

12:39

and so I was just trying to do

12:41

my part and saying, hey, we may not

12:43

be leading nationally, but the spaces that I'm

12:45

in, we're gonna have this conversation. Like if

12:47

we're gonna, we're gonna either like, I say

12:50

this about scripture, either we're gonna, you know, are

12:52

we gonna be Christians? We're gonna live out the word

12:54

of God? Are we gonna play games? Like, and

12:56

I'm not playing no games. And so that

12:59

was just the heart of it, you know,

13:01

starting. And when, you know, when we were

13:03

meeting in our group, Ferguson happened and,

13:07

you know, and Ferguson, and it was

13:09

like, I remember, I don't know if it was you

13:11

or someone from our group said, man,

13:15

if I was only getting my information from

13:17

the news, I would have a totally different perspective

13:20

on Ferguson, but we were encouraging each

13:22

other to look deeper. Like the

13:24

first thing I said, and when anything

13:27

like that happens, there's

13:29

other things happening in that community. You

13:32

gotta, it's connected, you know,

13:35

it's connected systemically. And then

13:37

the things we found out about, you know,

13:39

how policing was done, you know, how this

13:41

was a predominantly

13:43

black community, but they were,

13:46

all the leadership was white. You know, all of

13:48

those things are telling the school

13:51

system had lost its

13:53

accreditation. Like all these things that

13:55

we know, we see continuing to happen

13:57

where that happens.

14:00

where sometimes governments take

14:02

control over school and

14:04

it's kind of like you suck the life out

14:06

of them. And then it's like, you know, you

14:09

know, they lose their accreditation and

14:11

all these different things. This is

14:14

a pattern of behavior that we've

14:16

had since desegregation. And

14:18

we see it continuing, you know?

14:20

Yeah, I remember I tell probably this story

14:23

over and over again, whenever I talk about

14:25

meeting with you in that group, and then even

14:27

just how you've had influence over my life since

14:30

then, as I remember, in one of the very

14:32

first meetings in that group that you put together

14:34

was a very diverse group with white women and

14:36

black women, Asian, Hispanic. And I remember in one

14:39

of the first meetings, we were to go around

14:41

and tell about a time that you've experienced racism.

14:47

And none of the white women had anything to say,

14:49

you know? And you didn't try to make it up. No.

14:53

We sat there and we listened and we

14:55

listened and we listened. And then we all

14:57

had to go I don't

14:59

have one. And that was really like the part

15:02

of like, oh, that's what this journey is about,

15:04

is how do we as predominant culture people currently

15:06

in 2024, how do we listen? How do we

15:09

be, how do we listen well? And that's where

15:11

I wanted this show to be so often is

15:13

how do we listen well? So let's have a

15:15

conversation today where we get to listen and we

15:17

get to dive in. And I want to talk

15:20

about your book, but I want to throw something

15:22

at you that I didn't tell you what I was

15:24

going to ask you about, but I have no fear that you are

15:26

not fair to answer this question or to talk about this, is

15:29

in the state of Texas where I live, and

15:31

you used to live here in Texas, our

15:35

governor, Governor Abbott, put into law and

15:37

it went into effect January 1st. Let

15:41

me just get here. Let me read

15:43

about it. The law signed by Republican

15:45

Governor Greg Abbott bans public higher education

15:48

institutions from influencing hiring practices with

15:50

respect to race, sex, color, ethnicity,

15:52

and promotes differential and preferential treatment.

15:55

Basically, what's happened is the University of

15:57

Texas, who the people who were over

16:00

the University of Texas, I didn't know this, I read

16:02

this today, are appointed by the governor. And

16:05

I think they've laid off 60 professors

16:08

this year since January 1st,

16:10

and they're totally eliminating the

16:12

diversity, equity, inclusion parts

16:15

of the school. Can you

16:17

talk to us about this, Tasha?

16:19

Can you help us understand a

16:21

little bit of why this is

16:23

a detrimental thing, not only to our students

16:26

who are people of color, but also to the

16:28

majority, that campus is majority white,

16:35

to the majority of white students, why this is detrimental to

16:37

them as well? Yeah. We

16:39

have to realize that diversity is good for

16:42

us all. Our

16:45

group was great because we were

16:47

a diverse group of women. And

16:51

let's even take that women and men being

16:55

a part of the workplace

16:57

together, that has made us

16:59

a better country because of

17:01

it. Our military

17:03

is better because of it. Diversity

17:07

is a good thing. It's

17:09

not divisive. And so

17:11

the only people that are thinking that

17:14

diversity is divisive are either people

17:16

who are ignorant to the point

17:18

of the complexity of

17:21

diversity and understanding that we

17:23

serve a very diverse God.

17:27

When we look at the ocean, when we look

17:29

at the birds in the sky, the flowers, all of

17:31

that, diversity is a song to

17:33

be sung. It is something for us to

17:35

embrace and love. Now we have

17:37

to look at why these things were put

17:40

in place. So the reason why

17:42

they're able to do this now

17:44

is because of the Supreme Court

17:46

rolled back affirmative action. The same

17:48

way when we started having a lot

17:50

of issues with voting, it was

17:52

because certain things up under the

17:55

Voting Rights Act were rolled back

17:57

in 2013. And so you

17:59

had... And this is the key.

18:01

There are red states, but they're also

18:03

formerly enslaved states. So

18:06

there is a history. Although we

18:08

live in a racialized society, there

18:10

is a history of racism

18:12

in America. It's baked into

18:14

our DNA. Okay. So

18:16

we had to set up guidelines when

18:19

we've said that, hey, we want to track

18:21

a new way that we want to make

18:24

sure that there is liberty and

18:26

justice for all. We want to live

18:28

into our constitution. We want to make

18:30

sure that every citizen

18:32

of America flourishes. So, but

18:35

because of our history and

18:37

because of our systems, our systems are

18:40

broken and they're made up of broken

18:42

people who necessarily, who

18:44

don't necessarily feel the same way.

18:47

So we have to put guardrails

18:49

in place to make sure that

18:51

people are adhering. Okay. So in

18:55

America, the 14th amendment

18:57

gave us the right to vote. And

18:59

I'm giving this context, you know, because

19:02

this is something that we need. Okay.

19:04

So the 13th, you know, end of

19:06

slavery 14th gave us, gave us the

19:08

right to vote. So, but

19:11

that wasn't happening in the South. So

19:14

when we think about the freedom rise and

19:16

the voting rights act, the fact that we

19:19

had to have those things, we, everyone should

19:21

have had the right to vote, but my

19:23

grandmother in North Carolina didn't vote until she

19:25

was in her 30 because

19:28

that is because we have states rights.

19:31

And so the state is able to,

19:35

to, to have laws to

19:39

create marginalization and all

19:41

of those, those things. And so when we

19:43

talk about DEI, you have

19:46

to realize that the university of

19:48

Texas did not begin allowing students

19:50

of color until

19:52

the sixties. Okay. So that was

19:54

under the silver rights act when

19:57

we start allowing students. So now

19:59

I was. born in 73. Okay,

20:02

so we were

20:05

just removed from desegregation.

20:08

And a lot of places in the South, because they

20:10

were resisted to, they either closed

20:12

their schools down, or either, you

20:14

know, they started Christian schools, but

20:17

universities had to be made. You

20:19

know, you think about the whole

20:23

cases that, oh, miss every

20:26

school, every PWI,

20:28

which is predominantly white institution,

20:31

in this country has a story of

20:33

when, you know, the first black students,

20:36

and mostly in former

20:38

slave states, because these slave

20:40

states in their succession papers, they

20:43

left the union because they

20:45

did not want to integrate, they

20:48

wanted to continue with enslavement.

20:50

So I think it's ironic that most

20:52

of the states that this is happening

20:55

then with the rollback are former

20:57

slave states. Okay. And so there's

20:59

a tie in to this ideology.

21:02

So what they don't

21:04

even understand what DEI was. DEI

21:08

is not something that

21:10

gives people merit.

21:13

DEI is

21:15

an accountability tool to

21:18

say that because of our

21:20

history, we have to have

21:22

some metrics and making sure that

21:24

you are looking at all candidates,

21:26

because we have this history

21:29

of racism in our country, where

21:31

there were some schools that had

21:33

a lot more. And so

21:35

it's a way of bringing about equity,

21:37

you know, so think about with women,

21:39

you know, women, as white women didn't

21:41

get earned the right to, um, not

21:43

earn, let's say white women wasn't, weren't

21:46

given the right to vote until the,

21:48

I think it was 1930s,

21:50

right? Okay. So

21:53

within that timeframe, just think

21:55

about all those years, yeah,

21:58

where your voices were. heard.

22:01

And so now you're getting

22:03

this opportunity. It is

22:05

our responsibility as a society to

22:07

create some equity because there's a

22:09

lot of men that probably thought

22:12

that women should not be voting. Women should

22:14

not have this job. Women should not do this.

22:16

Women should not. So when you

22:18

start rolling back DEI, that's

22:21

not only impacting racial metrics,

22:24

that's impacting gender, you

22:27

know, in most cases also sexuality.

22:31

And also it starts in like

22:33

people with disabilities, ageism,

22:37

ageism, the fact that we can have

22:39

people that's in their 70s, you

22:41

know, running for president, you know what I'm saying?

22:43

Like there is a protection

22:46

that we cannot discriminate because of

22:48

age. We cannot discriminate because

22:50

of race. We cannot discriminate

22:53

because of your gender. And those

22:55

are the things that because they

22:57

personally don't think it or

23:00

because a lot of people want a

23:02

theocracy, which is

23:05

counter what our constitution is.

23:07

Like we, people

23:09

came here to America to

23:11

escape a theocracy, you know,

23:14

from the church ruling. So the

23:17

what I would say is Texas is

23:19

leaning into its history of

23:23

racism, is leaning

23:25

into, you

23:27

know, what you

23:29

would say the remnants of the

23:31

ancestors in that sense of

23:34

Alabama, Tennessee, Georgia, I live in

23:36

one state too, you know, Florida.

23:38

And they're doing it in a

23:41

more palatable way trying to claim

23:43

this reverse racism. When you,

23:46

listen, when there's only 2% at

23:49

your university anyway, right?

23:53

And so it's a way historically

23:55

to blame other people for

24:00

you know, for not having,

24:02

it's greed. And it's a way to

24:04

blame other people for the problems that

24:06

you see in a society

24:08

or within an institution. And so

24:10

it's just a cop out. It's

24:12

just another palatable way to create

24:14

systems of racism. And so that

24:16

is a protection. And, you know,

24:18

I went to a PWI. When

24:22

there were issues that happened on

24:24

campus, because we

24:26

are a very small number, you

24:29

know, you have the minority student affairs

24:31

office that I can go to

24:33

and feel safe. So

24:35

what you did, you're getting rid of all

24:38

the safe places and all

24:40

the safe people for a young

24:42

woman who's been sexually assaulted,

24:44

you know, a

24:47

part of that, you know, as far as

24:49

having things that help young

24:51

girls in college, like all of those

24:53

things, they're up now, you

24:55

know, a student that has a,

24:58

what do you call it when

25:00

a child has a special educational

25:02

requirement because of a- They

25:04

have a learning plan. Yeah, a learning plan, yes. Those

25:07

things. I can't think of the name, but yeah. And

25:09

I'm just saying, like, some people are like, yeah, we,

25:12

you know, we need a, you're giving

25:14

people something. And

25:16

this also goes back to this

25:19

ideology of inferiority and

25:21

superiority. That you're

25:24

thinking that the only reason why

25:26

brown people are there is because

25:29

they're taking spaces from white

25:32

people. And

25:34

so that's really, it just

25:36

gives us a fair, it

25:39

sets the playing field neutral and

25:41

since, because just think, in that

25:43

case, why isn't the university 50-50?

25:47

It's not, it's 4% Black, 25% Hispanic. It's

25:50

a very small- Which you've blended on.

25:53

It's a very small percent. And this is the

25:56

same thing with corporations. When you look at the

25:59

boards of- to the Fortune

26:01

500 boards,

26:04

I mean, the CEOs, it's

26:06

less than 1%, you know, 2% that are people of

26:10

color. So what are you complaining about?

26:13

That's just greed and

26:15

sin that

26:18

is unchecked. And it's like,

26:20

we have to start checking people, because

26:22

I don't believe everyone in Texas thinks

26:24

like that. Of

26:26

course not. I don't believe that every person

26:29

who's like a white person, Exactly.

26:31

They don't, especially with education. But if

26:33

you're presenting it, there are more people

26:35

that are getting a UT under

26:38

legacy. They don't look like

26:40

me, then there are people

26:42

that are brown people,

26:44

you know, when you say 4% of people,

26:46

but what are you doing is you're taking

26:49

away those safe spaces like

26:52

my safe space was our

26:54

multicultural center. So you created

26:56

these spaces on campus, because it

26:58

is a predominantly white space to

27:00

say, Hey, you belong. That's

27:03

all you're saying. So now you're saying is you

27:05

don't belong here. Yeah, and that's

27:07

what I've been remade. You know, you

27:09

did. Yes, yeah,

27:12

like all of those spaces, like the

27:14

multicultural center says that you belong

27:16

here. What you're saying now communicating

27:18

to students is you don't belong

27:20

here. So my challenge is to

27:22

parent is to stop

27:25

sending your kids someplace that don't want to, you

27:27

know, stop sending your kids to places that

27:29

are, that are not going

27:31

to create safe spaces. When we had stuff,

27:34

you know, to happen when I was called the

27:36

N word for the first time, I was able

27:38

by some people who were in a

27:40

fraternity, I was able to take that

27:42

to the multi to the minority affairs.

27:45

When we had issues where

27:47

black fraternities and sororities were

27:49

being put out of campuses

27:51

for small infractions versus

27:53

the things that were happening in

27:55

the white fraternities and sororities, we

27:58

had to protest about it. those things.

28:00

We had to challenge those things and

28:02

we needed adults to help us. So

28:05

we had an organization called Allied Blacks

28:07

for Leadership and Equality. Now they

28:11

can remove these roles, but

28:16

the things that are initiated by

28:18

students, they can't do anything about

28:20

that. So students can create, be

28:23

the bridge groups. Students can create

28:26

organizations that

28:28

can fight against these things. And

28:30

the whole thing is the bottom

28:32

line is money. What I want to

28:34

see is a nationwide ban

28:38

as it relates to sporting

28:40

events that they're saying, okay, if you don't

28:42

want us here, then you don't want us

28:44

on your sports teams. Because

28:47

majority of that 4% are people

28:49

that's on your sports teams. So

28:52

let's start messing with the money. The only

28:54

way we're going to get people's attention is

28:56

you have to start messing with the money. That's how

28:58

the Montgomery Bus Boycott,

29:01

it lasted for over like two

29:04

years, you know, and

29:06

with the Montgomery Bus Boycott, you

29:08

wanted us on your buses. You

29:10

wanted to take our money and treat us any kind

29:12

of way, basically. And

29:14

we're demanding us to ride

29:16

your buses and saying

29:19

where we can sit, what we can do.

29:21

You weren't charging us less, you

29:23

were charging us more. The same thing

29:25

with, you know, the housing, you were

29:27

charging us the same thing. We were paying the same

29:29

amount for our houses that you were paying for your

29:31

houses. But yet, it's still you're

29:34

going to make our communities redline. So the

29:36

only way that we're going to challenge these

29:38

things is number one is vote people out.

29:41

You know? And the second

29:43

thing would be to

29:46

start messing with the money. And so I

29:48

feel like any of these states that are doing this,

29:51

they should not get any NCAA

29:54

tournaments. They should not

29:56

get any, you

29:58

know, any. You're

30:00

gonna mess with money. Yeah. Yeah, I

30:02

mean, you know like let's stop sitting

30:04

in it How about federal dollars that

30:07

those schools are getting if you're rolling back

30:09

these the federal dollars that are supposed to come

30:11

to your school Then you don't get them. You don't have

30:13

access to them You know and

30:16

so and then I mean and this is we're just

30:18

talking about Texas Tennessee is a

30:21

whole nother monster. I said they

30:23

are living into the legacy of

30:26

George Wallace And

30:29

and what I challenge the listeners to

30:31

do go back and read some of the articles

30:33

go back and read Some

30:35

of the reasons why people didn't

30:38

want to desegregate go back and

30:40

read the doctor's succession document Google

30:43

Texas succession documents Tennessee's

30:45

the session document South

30:48

Carolina says Google them and see what they

30:50

say And Ready

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31:59

know that's That's why I love this new book

32:01

of yours so much, Tasha, is because there's

32:04

so much history in this book. Yeah. I

32:06

look back and when I get a book like

32:09

this that is very, it's

32:12

heady but approachable, I should say. I

32:15

like to look at the notes section and

32:17

I'm telling you guys, Tasha, she's got the

32:19

receipts. She's done her work. Each

32:22

chapter has about 30 to 40 footnotes

32:24

and that to me says this book

32:26

is full of history and documents. It's

32:28

not just your opinion. Yes. This

32:30

is a really good, so this book, Brown Faces,

32:33

White Faces, Confronting Systematic Racism to Bring Healing and

32:35

Restoration, just released this week, guys, so you can

32:37

get it. Tasha, I'm going to ask you this

32:39

question. Everything we've been talking

32:41

about so far leads into this book. I know, right?

32:43

I know, right? And I thought

32:45

about- You got me started. I know. As

32:48

I've been reading this book and then following along what's happening

32:50

at the university here in my town, I

32:53

can't help but even what you just said,

32:55

like encouraging listeners to go back and read

32:57

some documents. I can't

32:59

help but think that there is

33:02

so much history in our country

33:05

that I myself, most Americans

33:08

are just unaware of because especially

33:10

for someone like me who's white

33:12

American, it hasn't affected me. You

33:14

talk about the buses

33:17

and those are stories to

33:19

me. Those mean something different to

33:21

you because it was like, oh, this could

33:23

have been your family, you remember. Right. And

33:26

so for me, I'm like, this

33:28

history matters to me because I've

33:31

never experienced this history. And

33:33

that is what I always want people

33:36

who are white like me to go, hey, these

33:38

stories matter to us because this is our country

33:40

and this is why we got here. So this

33:42

new book, Brown Faces, White Spaces, I have two

33:44

questions for you. Number one, who did

33:46

you write this book for? Yeah, I wrote this

33:48

book for every American. And

33:52

I think especially with the banning of books,

33:54

banning of history, and just you have to

33:56

look at what history is being

33:59

attacked the most. What

34:02

are they banning? Like what in Florida,

34:04

like, why don't you want an African

34:06

American APA class?

34:09

Like, I mean, our ancestors have

34:11

been here just as long as some

34:15

majority of white people

34:17

that came across, right? You know,

34:20

Ellis Allen, you know what I'm saying? We've been

34:22

here longer. And, and so

34:24

why would you want to bend the

34:26

first of all, African history is American

34:28

history. It shouldn't even be segmented. Let's

34:30

just start from there. This

34:33

history should not be segmented. It should be

34:35

a part of it. But because it's not,

34:37

if it's told correctly, because

34:40

it's not, we have to create

34:42

APA classes. We're writing books, all

34:44

of those things. And so

34:46

it's important for us to have the

34:48

context because the reason why I wrote

34:51

this book, because what I have seen is when people

34:53

are given truth, when people are

34:55

given back, they respond.

34:58

They respond with empathy. Those

35:01

who are a lot of

35:03

times it's just missing information. And that is what we

35:05

saw in 2020. We saw truth being

35:11

embraced and

35:13

the powers that be got into frenzy

35:15

because that means that empathy

35:18

brings about change, communal

35:22

change, collective justice.

35:25

And so we saw fear. And

35:29

so because of that fear, there's, you know,

35:31

you have CRT, then you have

35:33

wokeism and now DEI. And

35:35

then it'll be something else. And then it's gonna be something

35:38

else. I mean, the same thing, you know, back

35:40

in the day with MLK, it was

35:42

Marxism, socialism, all these different things.

35:45

And really the antebellum South,

35:47

South is the epitome of

35:50

Marxism and socialism. Like, you know what I'm

35:52

saying? Like, like, let's, let's flip this.

35:54

Like what you're trying to create

35:58

is that of Marxism, you know? And so,

36:00

and just for us to understand that,

36:02

and so we have to, let's be

36:05

smart, you guys. Let's be smart and intelligent.

36:07

See, the people I know that I'm talking

36:09

to are people who have a

36:11

heart where I'm

36:13

only, I'm just missing information. You

36:17

know, people who are doubling down, people

36:20

who want to embrace, you

36:23

know, racism, or people who hate

36:25

and, you know, lead with hate

36:27

in a different, those

36:29

are not my audience, that's not my audience. My

36:32

audience is, are people who say,

36:35

you know what, I see the brokenness. I

36:37

just don't know what to do about it. Yeah.

36:40

So I like to write in a way

36:42

to fill in those gaps. It's

36:45

so good. It's the same experience that

36:47

I would attribute to myself with what's

36:50

happening at our Southern border. And, you know,

36:52

a lot of the media just, it's fear-based.

36:55

It's fear, fear, fear, fear, fear, fear. And

36:58

then you go down to the Southern border and you

37:00

see it with your own eyes. You can have conversations

37:02

with not only immigrants, but you have

37:04

conversations with people who are leading work down there, and

37:07

you have conversations with people on both sides of the

37:09

border. And you go, oh, there's facts that just aren't

37:11

being said in the news. And I can develop empathy

37:13

for what's happening at the Southern border. And

37:15

I just, I think we should say

37:17

this, in this year of 2024 with this election, is

37:21

that if someone that you follow or

37:23

that you're, that is leading

37:25

you, whether that's in media or the public

37:27

office, whatever it is, and their main tactic

37:29

is fear. And you are a person

37:32

who is a follower of Christ. I just want you to

37:34

have a little bit of alarm system going off. That

37:36

this whole like living in fear. It's

37:40

just, it's it. Like the

37:43

narrative that we hear around

37:45

from, you know, from a

37:47

former president around men and

37:49

women made in the image of

37:51

God coming to our Southern border. The narrative that

37:53

we hear about them is so

37:55

terrible that it hurts my heart. And so when you

37:58

hear things like that, alarm should be going off. up

38:00

in your head. This is not how we live. We're not

38:02

living based in fear. Yeah. And first of all, God

38:04

has not given us the spirit of fear, you

38:08

know? But of love and a sound

38:10

mind. And so we can't forget scripture

38:13

and how scripture tells us to

38:17

treat the foreigners. So I know

38:19

government, but a lot

38:21

of these rules are being made in the name

38:25

of Christianity. And so I think

38:27

we have to remember, listen,

38:30

nobody is for open borders.

38:33

Right. You know what I'm saying? No one is

38:35

saying that. Right. And so, and we have to

38:37

have guards, but there are solutions, but we don't

38:40

want to listen to the solutions. We want to

38:42

create, continue to make this

38:44

a partisan issue. We're talking about

38:46

people's lives and we're not looking

38:48

at the context of, okay, why

38:51

are people coming? What,

38:53

what is, what has, why

38:55

is there destabilization in

38:57

those countries? What is

38:59

the history of that? And what role did we play in

39:01

it? So,

39:05

and yeah, both

39:07

sides of the political party use immigration.

39:09

It'll be the biggest talks about saying,

39:11

come, you know, September, October, November, both

39:13

sides of the aisle use that for

39:16

two years, for decades, for decades.

39:18

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Totally, totally. Okay. Brown

39:22

faces white spaces. What

39:24

you do in this book is beautiful

39:26

and it's so educational and it's based

39:28

in scripture. You're a person who loves

39:30

Jesus and you have opportunities in here

39:32

to tie in. Here's what God's

39:34

word said. Here's how we can lament of this. Here's what

39:36

we can do. You have personal stories. You have other people's

39:38

stories. It's just, I cannot recommend enough.

39:41

And you go through some different systems

39:43

in our country, education,

39:45

healthcare, the justice system,

39:47

the marketplace, the military,

39:50

property ownership, entertainment, sports, and the church.

39:53

And I just thought this is, I guarantee

39:55

you, Tasha, this book might be on the

39:57

ban list. Right. Right. Right.

39:59

Okay, y'all buy it. That

40:02

means that you can buy it. But

40:07

also, I'm going to go ahead and say I

40:09

think this is beginning, kind of, this will be

40:11

some kind of required reading someplace. This is going

40:13

to be a required reading in an

40:15

educational system, whether that's a higher level or

40:17

at a high school

40:20

level, because it is, it's just

40:22

historically based, it's fact based. You

40:24

have Jesus in there, you can't help it.

40:27

But let's talk about two things. Okay. Okay.

40:29

And, and we might only get to because

40:31

you and I just keep talking. Okay. The

40:33

last two chapters, one is on sports and

40:35

then one is on the

40:37

church. Okay. And these are two

40:39

things that I love sports and I

40:41

love God's church. And so

40:43

let's dive in. Which one do you want

40:46

to go to first? Let's look, we just

40:48

coming out of the WNBA, like at this

40:50

point, when we're recording this. So

40:53

let's, let's talk about

40:55

that. You know, that's still a hot topic. Okay.

40:58

Speaking of WNBA, I, March

41:01

Madness was life

41:03

for me. First of all, my life

41:05

was, my literal life was in a really, really,

41:07

really hard spot. So March Madness, I

41:10

watched almost every game. I watched girls

41:12

basketball more than I did boys past

41:14

March. And that final game

41:17

between Iowa and South Carolina

41:19

had the like more watchers

41:21

than any basketball game, the

41:23

entire year. Yeah. Yeah. I

41:25

mean, people like, well, first of

41:27

all, we like drama and you

41:29

know, but girls games, I remember I

41:32

played in a league of, of, of

41:34

female, of black football league. We would

41:36

have more people at our games than

41:39

the men had at their games. Cause

41:41

people love to see girls being aggressive

41:43

and cocky and confident. And so, um,

41:46

and we like it too. We like

41:48

it too. I'm like all into,

41:50

I love pork, but like, I

41:53

didn't, let me tell you, I watched that. I

41:55

think one game I

41:58

watched NC State and Purdue. thing

42:01

and the boys tournament. Do

42:03

you, I don't know like so many of the girls games.

42:06

I mean, because there's like some other players,

42:08

you know, yes, you got Angel Rees and

42:10

Caitlin and some other ones, but this

42:12

Juju, Juju from the stuff.

42:14

Juju, Juju can shushu. Like, you know

42:17

what I'm saying? Like, you know, so there's just

42:19

some, there's, there's a lot, there's a lot there.

42:21

It's so much. Wait, time out. Did you go to NC

42:23

State? No, I went to East

42:25

Carolina. I went to, yeah, I went

42:28

to New back. State is our, never

42:30

says that as our rival, you know?

42:33

But they, they had this big dude, this

42:35

play. I forget his name of this. Oh,

42:37

I love watching him play. Yes. And I

42:39

love to watch him, you know, because you

42:41

know, he's, he's looked like somebody from my family.

42:43

It's so fun and happy. I want to hang

42:45

out with him. I want to have him. Okay.

42:47

Let's talk about this chapter. You kind

42:49

of like shut up and dribble and you can tell

42:51

the story about that. And I think that we might be

42:53

familiar with it. But let's talk about how there's

42:56

systematic racism built into our sports in

42:58

America, which we don't have our sports

43:01

in America. Yeah. We, I mean,

43:03

we have to see it that everything

43:05

has history. And so everything was divided

43:07

at one point. So you have to,

43:09

especially like you think about the football

43:11

league, baseball, all of that. We, we,

43:13

because we were a segregated society, you

43:17

know, black, people had

43:19

their teams, you know, and then white people

43:21

had their teams. And as

43:23

we progressed in time, you know,

43:26

there were, there were efforts of

43:28

desegregation, but you have to look

43:30

at the inequities of that. So

43:32

when you think about the national

43:34

Negro league, none of

43:37

the managers or owners were

43:40

promoted over, you know, and that's just

43:42

stuff that we have to learn from

43:44

the past that when we have integration,

43:46

we lose, you know, but we

43:48

want the, we

43:51

want, we didn't, we didn't really see

43:53

our value in what we carry as

43:55

far as the players and the star

43:58

power coming into that. where

44:00

we didn't negotiate like, hey, we

44:02

just wanted to be accepted into

44:05

that system. And we can't

44:07

just take acceptance into a system as

44:10

equality and equity. When

44:14

we're losing, all

44:16

of our managers are, when majority of black

44:18

schools are being shut down, and the majority

44:21

of teachers that were let go were black,

44:24

that's not equity and fairness in

44:26

that. And so when we talk

44:28

about that, sports has had a

44:30

long history of injustice.

44:34

You think about, I think I talk about

44:36

the story of the

44:40

1930 Olympics with Jesse

44:42

Owens and him

44:45

running and how the

44:47

whole Olympics, Hitler wanted

44:50

to prove that white

44:52

people were superior. So

44:55

you have this Olympics and Jesse

44:58

Owens was told not to go

45:00

by the NAACP, but then he

45:02

got a lot of backlash. So it's like you like

45:04

our gifting, you

45:07

like certain parts, our athleticism

45:10

and certain parts of

45:13

black people, but not our

45:16

intellect or not our history,

45:19

all the things that come along with what it means

45:23

to be black in that identity. And so

45:25

he goes and he shows out and he

45:27

wins. But

45:30

he wasn't received, he

45:33

wasn't given honor by Hitler. And

45:35

that was a complaint, but he also wasn't given

45:37

honor in this whole country. So

45:40

here's a person that wins a gold

45:43

medal and wasn't allowed or

45:45

permitted to walk through the front door of

45:47

the hotel. He was

45:49

never invited to

45:51

the White House by Truman, like

45:54

every other Olympian. So

45:56

you know what I'm saying? We have this

45:58

double standard. America

46:01

has to turn the mirror on itself, but

46:03

we were complaining about Hitler and

46:06

the things that Hitler was doing is

46:08

the same things we've done. Like Hitler learned

46:11

to do what he did in the Holocaust

46:14

from the Atlanta slave trade, from

46:17

what was happening here. But

46:20

we have always had a, we

46:23

have always used sports as a way to

46:26

protest. And so you see that in

46:28

the sixties, where

46:30

we just want people to perform, we

46:32

wanna see performance, but we don't wanna see

46:36

here what's behind your performance.

46:39

And you see that play out

46:41

with LeBron James, we've

46:43

seen that with Colin

46:46

Kaepernick. I mean, the guy, I

46:51

mean, just me, like when

46:54

white people protest is what they, but when

46:56

we protest, when people were protesting against mass

46:59

and vaccines and all that

47:01

stuff, that like you're American, you're

47:03

a patriot, when you're

47:05

protesting about guns, all these things.

47:07

But when he's protesting, because people

47:09

are dying in the streets for

47:11

having a

47:14

shout out backlight or

47:16

not having a seatbelt on or a carrot

47:19

and toy gun, like that's a

47:21

travesty. And so he

47:23

was silently protesting

47:25

because of those things. And

47:28

we were in the uproar. And this man

47:31

is still not picked playing. In the NFL,

47:33

he lost his position. I mean, this is

47:35

someone that won

47:38

the national football title, like he has

47:40

a ring and went to

47:42

the Super Bowl twice. Like he wasn't

47:44

like some scrub player. Right.

47:47

You know? When you tell

47:49

the story of Jesse Owens, I know that a lot of

47:51

people could think like, Tasha, that's a

47:53

long time ago. We've come a long way. That's not

47:56

how it has anymore. And then you

47:58

tell the story of Colin Kaepernick and of LeBron. Jane

48:00

using their voice the same way that we

48:02

would instruct all of our children, use your

48:04

voice for good. You get to make a

48:06

change using their voice. And

48:09

then we all know what happened to Colin Kaepernick.

48:11

And we know that, I believe it was Laura Ingram

48:13

who said, you know, just shut up and do

48:15

it. Basically we don't, was it her? Yeah, she was,

48:17

she was, she was, she was the one. And

48:20

instead of just saying, Hey, like, here's what you

48:22

can do LeBron, go play basketball. We don't need

48:25

to hear about the travesties of your neighborhood with

48:27

systematic racism. And so it makes me wonder, like,

48:30

I even read this chapter going, am

48:32

I complicit in this? Yeah. Yeah. And I

48:34

don't know the answer to that. Maybe, yes,

48:36

we know. The air that we

48:39

breathe and it is the waters that we drink.

48:41

So we have to come out of a place of,

48:43

and this is what the posture of our heart has

48:45

to be that of humility to do this work.

48:48

And so with that of humility,

48:50

you, you lead with the part of

48:52

I am proudly complicit. Let

48:55

me see. And so even, even

48:58

myself as an African-American, I have

49:01

to check my lens, you know, this

49:03

whole incident, like the things that have

49:05

been going around with Caitlin and Angela

49:07

Reese, like at the core of

49:09

that, from our society through the

49:11

lens of perspective, it's a race thing.

49:15

Now the players, the players, the girls are

49:18

being girls. They play, they talk to each

49:20

other. Like they took pictures together, what we

49:22

make it more sometimes than what it is.

49:24

But the way people are looking at stuff

49:26

and the lens and the deals and all

49:29

that, it does like everything

49:31

is about race because we live in a

49:34

racialized society. And some of

49:36

us as a, as a person

49:38

of color, we know it, we see it, but

49:40

we don't want to admit that that's, that

49:43

it is because it's ingrained in us.

49:45

It's the air that we breathe. It's

49:47

how we see we all have biases,

49:49

you know, if you have a brain, you have a

49:51

bias. Okay. So now

49:54

the problem is not that you have a

49:56

bias. The problem is how do

49:58

you act out on that bias? And

50:01

then how are you identifying those biases?

50:03

Cause we all have them. So

50:06

I would start from the place of, yes,

50:08

I am complicit. Now,

50:12

show me, let me, how am I

50:14

complicit with this? You know, what

50:16

are the things that I'm ignoring? Because if

50:19

you're ignoring something or if you're silent about

50:21

something, it makes you complicit with it, you

50:24

know? And so I think those are the things that we

50:26

have to be aware of. And once we're

50:29

aware and we acknowledge, we don't have

50:31

to stay there. We

50:33

can lament those things. And

50:35

then we can change. Like we

50:37

can turn away from, that's what we, you

50:39

know, in our faith we say we're fintered.

50:41

We turn away from, you know, on how

50:44

that, and it's a renewing of our minds. How

50:46

do I begin to acknowledge those things?

50:48

Just think about how you thought 15

50:51

years ago or 10 years ago, then how

50:53

you think Jamie now. I

50:56

mean, completely different. Yeah. Completely

50:58

different. And that's progress. You

51:01

know, that's progress that I once was blind,

51:03

but now I see. And

51:06

so what we're trying to do is get people to

51:08

see. And sometimes we have to

51:11

do things that makes people uncomfortable, that

51:13

agitates people. We have to be holy

51:15

agitators, you know? And

51:18

what LeBron is, Colin

51:20

Kaepernick, they are holy disruptors,

51:23

you know? Because a lot

51:25

of times people's faith are leading them

51:27

to be that way. And

51:29

that is the example that Jesus said

51:32

when he talked to the woman at the well, you

51:34

know? That is the, you

51:36

know, the example that Jesus

51:39

said when he heals the man, you

51:42

know, on the Sabbath. That is

51:44

the example that Jesus said when he

51:46

is, you know, calling out the Pharisees.

51:48

He's been a holy disruptor, you

51:51

know? That is who Harriet Tubman was.

51:54

I mean, the signs that

51:56

were displayed for her were, you

51:58

know, the most... They call

52:00

her Moses. He

52:03

was a holy disruptor, you know? Calling

52:06

her Moses but still wanted to lynch her for

52:10

setting her people free. So

52:13

you know, I think we got to make some decisions.

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53:26

know I really love that Tasha. I'm

53:29

going to be thinking about what you just said for

53:32

a long time when you

53:34

said the question is am

53:37

I complicit? Probably let me see how and let

53:39

me see what I can do about it. And

53:41

that is a humility stance. That is a stance that

53:43

says because you say let me find it because I

53:46

underlined it in the beginning of this book you said

53:48

I was going to read this at the end of

53:50

the episode anyway so I'm going to read it now.

53:52

You said now this is in your author's note at

53:54

the beginning. Like you're setting the stage as you read

53:56

this let me tell you something this is from you.

53:59

You say take a deep breath. Remember that if you

54:01

are breathing, you have the agency to bring about

54:03

change. The issues in this book

54:05

are layered, painful, and uncomfortable. We

54:07

didn't cause systematic racism. It's not our

54:10

fault that unjust systems exist, but

54:12

it is our collective responsibility not to

54:14

uphold those unjust systems. And

54:16

there is plenty of reason to hope. Change is

54:19

possible if we exercise our shared responsibility to be

54:21

a part of the solution. We can call communities

54:23

to a deeper understanding of empathy, love, compassion, and

54:25

justice. We can build one another up and invest

54:28

in restoration. We can work toward liberation just like

54:30

so many of the people in the pages of

54:32

the book have done. And

54:35

I just, you started the book like that, and

54:37

that's what made me think about right there. It's

54:39

like, you know what? So many times, the

54:42

people that are so at arms against all

54:44

of these conversations are talking about this. The

54:46

number one thing I hear is like, I

54:48

didn't do any of this. I didn't

54:50

own slaves. I wasn't a part of

54:52

this. I don't think that way. And

54:54

the reality is I didn't

54:57

own a slave. I wasn't here in 1910. I

55:01

wasn't here in 1845. Those

55:03

are true statements, but yet I

55:05

live here now. And I

55:07

can wake up and see that there are

55:10

unjust systems that help me and

55:12

hurt you and hurt my children. And so that

55:15

humility of like, do I have a bias? Probably. Well,

55:18

I know I do. You said if I have a brain, I have

55:20

a bias. But thank you for that. That hit

55:22

me today in a really good way, in a really

55:24

good way. Okay. I have talked so

55:26

long because I love you, Tasha. I

55:29

know. But I need

55:31

you to quickly talk about the last one of

55:33

church because I said we're going to get to

55:35

two of them. And I do want you to

55:37

share just a little bit of that, maybe even

55:39

your personal experience of what it, you know, what

55:41

you've seen within the church and how that's been

55:43

hard for you with the systematic injustice. Yeah. Because

55:46

we have all these other systems. And

55:49

it would be if we know

55:52

the words of Jesus, if we understand

55:54

scripture, the church

55:56

should have been the headlight in this conversation.

55:58

We should. have never

56:00

had the Institute of slavery

56:03

if the church was

56:06

doing and living out of

56:08

the mission of Jesus,

56:10

you know. And so the

56:13

church was not on the sidelines saying,

56:15

don't do this, this is wrong. Of

56:18

course you have some outliers and some,

56:20

a very few denominations. So majority, you

56:24

know, they were deleting Exodus out of

56:26

the Bible and trying

56:29

to demand

56:31

people into the institution of

56:33

slavery through scripture, you know. And

56:35

so it was used as a

56:38

weapon. The Bible was weaponized. And

56:40

so I think it's important when

56:42

we think about that the church

56:44

is not the headlines, you know.

56:46

We're not leading with compassion. We're

56:48

not leading with humility. We're not

56:50

leading with truth. And we know

56:52

the truth makes us free, you

56:56

know. Jesus says, I am the way, the truth

56:59

and the light, you know what I'm saying.

57:01

We understand truth matters in

57:03

our faith. And so

57:05

we shouldn't be falling for Okeydoke. We

57:08

shouldn't be leading out of life. And

57:10

so that lets you know we have

57:12

ingested something. And this

57:14

is really a call to the church for us to

57:16

see and look at. And

57:18

it's just a calling for it,

57:21

a calling out. And what I saw in

57:23

2020, I

57:25

saw different denominations, churches, people of

57:27

all races. They look totally different.

57:30

2020 protests

57:33

and lament look totally different from the

57:36

sixties. The sixties more people look

57:38

like me. 2020

57:42

people looked different. It was diverse. It was global. It was global.

57:44

I mean, they were marching in

57:46

Norway and in the Netherlands, like, you know, come on now.

57:48

And that is scary to a lot of people who

57:52

have power, who want to continue to hold

57:55

power and not do anything to benefit. Well,

58:00

we do this because we

58:03

love each other and we consider

58:05

ourselves brothers and sisters. Because,

58:07

you know, when we get, you

58:10

know, when eternity is here, it's not

58:12

going to be a black side, a

58:14

white side, an Asian side, you know,

58:16

Jesus may not even look like what

58:18

you think he's going to look like. And

58:20

Jesus doesn't speak English. So don't stop

58:23

talking to people that they need to speak

58:25

English. Like, you know what I'm saying? And

58:27

so if we, you know,

58:29

there is, God

58:32

is about nations and tribes,

58:34

you know, you know, our

58:36

ethos, like our, this

58:38

is where we get ethnicity, you know.

58:40

So when we, you know, when we

58:43

look at Revelation 7-9, when we look

58:45

at even if they have pisacab with

58:47

us coming out of Easter, like that

58:50

was the

58:52

whole book of Acts. When we talk

58:54

about that, that is a beginning, that

58:56

is a new beginning of

58:59

the church to come and what they

59:01

had to deal with, with all of

59:03

these people that were coming to faith

59:05

in Jesus Christ. These

59:07

were, there were economic

59:09

diversity, there were ethnic

59:12

diversity, there was gender

59:14

diversity, all of these things. And

59:17

they had to learn to navigate. And

59:19

what Luke continues to say is that

59:22

the church multiplied, that the church grew

59:24

because they had to deal with those

59:26

situations. And so I believe that

59:30

the answer to a lot of our

59:32

issues that we're having within the church

59:35

is because we're not living out the

59:37

true message of Jesus, you know. We're

59:40

not loving our neighbor well, you

59:42

know. We're not living

59:45

out of compassion. We're

59:48

not seeing one another.

59:50

We're not creating spaces

59:52

of belonging. And I

59:54

believe that this is a wake-up call.

59:57

What we have here, Jamie, is

59:59

not for the for us to be

1:00:01

afraid of. You know, this

1:00:04

work is uncomfortable, you know,

1:00:06

but this is for, this is

1:00:08

an opportunity. This

1:00:10

is an opportunity. And,

1:00:13

you know, this is an opportunity for

1:00:15

us to choose. Are we going

1:00:17

to repeat the mistakes of the past? You

1:00:20

know, are we going to embrace a

1:00:23

new creation? You know, are we, are

1:00:25

we going to change where we're creating

1:00:27

a world where everyone flourishes? The reason

1:00:29

why I write and I fight and

1:00:31

the reason why Colin Kaepernick got on

1:00:33

his knees is because we want to

1:00:35

see an America that

1:00:37

is flourishing for all, not just,

1:00:40

and for the Christian, this

1:00:42

has to be global. We, it's

1:00:44

not just about America. It's about

1:00:46

all God's children everywhere. This

1:00:48

is about the imago de and

1:00:51

that everyone should have a

1:00:54

space where they, they flourish. And so

1:00:57

that's what this is about. And, you know,

1:01:00

so the book on the, on the church,

1:01:02

that's a hard one because, you know, I'm

1:01:04

talking to people every day that are leaving

1:01:06

churches or have been asked to

1:01:08

leave churches. You would not believe to

1:01:12

some of the things that we churches with. Do

1:01:14

you know there are churches in

1:01:16

the South and I'm pretty sure there were

1:01:19

some in the North that wouldn't baptize people

1:01:21

of a different ethnicity. The

1:01:23

same way we didn't, we didn't set a different

1:01:26

culture in the church. We embraced segregation

1:01:28

within our church. You know,

1:01:30

people who were abolitionists, some still did

1:01:32

not believe that we were equal. So

1:01:35

they wanted us free, but they didn't

1:01:37

want us to sit on the same

1:01:39

church pews. So that's why we had

1:01:41

to create our own denomination. So there

1:01:44

are certain denominations that were

1:01:46

created because, you know, that

1:01:48

Richard Allen and, and,

1:01:51

and so many others created

1:01:53

the Methodist, you know, the missionary

1:01:55

Baptist, the Ambi Zion, you know,

1:01:58

all of these denominations. that were

1:02:00

created. And so I just kind of talk a little

1:02:02

bit about those

1:02:04

things because the church wasn't, they

1:02:07

weren't being counter cultural, we were embracing

1:02:09

the culture, and carrying

1:02:11

it out. So the same way that

1:02:14

our pools were segregated, you know, our

1:02:16

pews were segregated, you know, you couldn't

1:02:19

get baptized here, you know, you could

1:02:21

sit on the same pew as

1:02:24

as a white person. I mean, just that's

1:02:26

a travesty, like, it makes no sense, like,

1:02:29

something that we can't control our skin color.

1:02:32

Yeah, you know what I'm saying? Like, I can't

1:02:34

control just like, you know, I can't

1:02:37

control that. But we

1:02:39

are creating systems and

1:02:41

judging people over something

1:02:43

that God did, you know,

1:02:47

like, you know, that's all like, God did,

1:02:49

God did this, right? God created all of

1:02:51

this, taking up with them, you know. And

1:02:54

so I think it's an opportunity,

1:02:56

this is an opportunity for us

1:02:58

to repent and turn from our

1:03:01

separate ways. And that's what I

1:03:03

am calling the church, I'm calling

1:03:05

us to be brave. I'm calling

1:03:07

Christians to be courageous, to not

1:03:09

get sidetracked about the CRT, DEI,

1:03:14

wokeism, all of those things. I mean, would you

1:03:16

rather be awake or sleep? Like, I

1:03:18

mean, it makes no sense. Like, like,

1:03:21

would you rather be aware of

1:03:24

racial injustice or not aware? And

1:03:27

that's what that that's what that

1:03:29

boils down to. When you when you're calling

1:03:31

someone, you're saying, hey, it's

1:03:33

dangerous out there, you got to be

1:03:35

awake to, you know, this skin color

1:03:38

can be life or death. It

1:03:40

depends, you know, what states you

1:03:42

lived in. I just came from

1:03:44

the Legacy Museum down in Montgomery.

1:03:46

People were lynched because they walked

1:03:49

on the same street as a

1:03:51

white person or because they

1:03:53

looked a white person in the eye. And that

1:03:55

was less than 100 years. Listen, I just

1:03:58

interviewed my aunt, my great who

1:04:00

was 94 years old for the book. Y'all, I'm

1:04:02

telling you, and

1:04:04

also who I dedicate this book

1:04:06

to the survivors. My

1:04:10

parents were born into segregation, okay?

1:04:13

So they didn't have the choice of

1:04:15

schools. My grandfather couldn't finish high school,

1:04:17

not because he didn't want to, but

1:04:19

because of systemic racism, there

1:04:21

were not any high schools in his area

1:04:24

that he could get to. There was a

1:04:26

black high school if you didn't

1:04:28

have the means of transportation. My aunt talked

1:04:30

about how they would have to walk

1:04:33

five miles as a kid, five

1:04:35

miles to get to a

1:04:37

school. And

1:04:40

so, you know, she's 94 years old. She

1:04:43

is still with us. And

1:04:45

I asked her, I said, do

1:04:48

you feel like, you know, she said,

1:04:50

we're not where we used to be, and there has

1:04:52

been progress, but I feel like

1:04:54

they're trying to take us backwards. And

1:04:57

so my mom has communicated the

1:04:59

same thing. Like there is PTSD

1:05:02

in our communities. People are hurting

1:05:04

because they see it, and we

1:05:06

know what it is. You can

1:05:08

dance it up and dress it

1:05:10

up in Texas and Arkansas. You

1:05:12

can, in Florida, you can say what you want

1:05:15

to say, but we know you sound

1:05:17

just like George Wallace. You

1:05:19

sound like the segregationists when

1:05:23

they were speaking in the fifties and

1:05:25

sixties and some of it to the

1:05:27

sixties. We know, you know,

1:05:29

that brand. And so my mom,

1:05:32

you know, I wanted to create

1:05:36

things as it relates to the book

1:05:39

tour that was gonna honor them. I'm

1:05:41

not waiting for someone to honor my

1:05:44

relatives and our people.

1:05:48

I want to give them their roses

1:05:50

now. I want to say, well done.

1:05:53

You have been faithful. You have been

1:05:55

courageous, and we're not gonna give

1:05:57

up now. Yes, some of us

1:05:59

are scared. and we're frightened and

1:06:01

there's fear, you know, but we are gonna

1:06:03

stand up for the right thing. So I

1:06:05

think this is just a call

1:06:07

right now that's happening with all the things

1:06:09

that happen, seeing it and I providing. We

1:06:12

have to say not on our watch. First

1:06:15

of all, there's more of us than there

1:06:17

is of them. But we just,

1:06:19

we're not organizing our voices. We're

1:06:22

not strategic, but there are more

1:06:24

people. Let me tell you, I don't take, I live

1:06:26

in Texas. There's some great people in

1:06:28

Texas. There's some justice people

1:06:30

in Texas and

1:06:32

there's enough people in Texas to

1:06:34

wield your power and, you know,

1:06:37

to say no to

1:06:39

the governor. Like, no, we're not gonna do this.

1:06:41

We're not going backwards in our institution. You

1:06:44

know, we're gonna create places of

1:06:46

belonging for all students, you

1:06:48

know? We're gonna, you know, like, I mean,

1:06:51

removing multicultural centers, like,

1:06:54

come on, like, y'all. It's terrible.

1:06:56

That's just so simple. And

1:06:59

I'm not waiting for certain pastors to speak

1:07:01

out. We are the church. We

1:07:05

are the capital C church. We

1:07:07

don't need a pool pit to

1:07:09

speak out against atrocities. And

1:07:11

so that's what this book is about. And I'm

1:07:13

fired up because I feel like

1:07:15

this is life or death. I feel

1:07:17

like the future of this

1:07:20

country is dependent. I think a part

1:07:22

of America's downfall that we are not

1:07:24

who we could be is

1:07:27

because of the

1:07:29

racism and because we live in a racial

1:07:31

life society. And so

1:07:34

I'm calling everybody like, hey,

1:07:37

let's equip ourselves. And a part of

1:07:39

the tools or resources, this book is

1:07:41

a part of that tools or resources

1:07:43

of equipping ourselves to speak truth to

1:07:46

power. Tasha,

1:07:48

I am a fan of yours forever for

1:07:50

a lot of reasons. Your humility, your

1:07:53

smartness, you're willing to stand up. You're willing

1:07:55

to alight arms with people. I've

1:07:58

always felt as though you were. cheerleader

1:08:00

for me. And I always come

1:08:02

at this conversation if I

1:08:05

were to speak to people who are white like me

1:08:07

and say that this matters

1:08:10

to us because we're raising children. And

1:08:12

if you think that this isn't still

1:08:14

a part of our history, just

1:08:16

three weeks ago on the cross field, my

1:08:18

son was called the N word. And I'm

1:08:20

just saying it's, you know,

1:08:22

February of 2024 and a 17

1:08:25

year old white boy called my 18 year

1:08:27

old black son, the N word. Yeah. That

1:08:30

is a problem. Yeah. You know? Yeah. And that

1:08:33

is not okay. And yet, so I, and your

1:08:35

son will never forget that. Right.

1:08:38

I can remember every time I've been called that

1:08:40

he, it will, it's marked in

1:08:42

him, his DNA, like, so

1:08:45

it's going to take what they

1:08:47

say, nine other affirmations because

1:08:49

he's not just getting it there. He's

1:08:51

getting it queued and TV and all

1:08:54

these other things. And we're

1:08:56

giving people a license to do this now

1:08:59

because although you're making it palatable, people

1:09:02

know what it's coded for.

1:09:04

It's saying you

1:09:06

don't belong here. You don't belong

1:09:09

here. And I want to say

1:09:11

like it, and without

1:09:13

the racial explicit language, that's

1:09:16

what it's saying. We don't

1:09:18

want you here at our universities. We

1:09:21

just want you to perform. We want you

1:09:23

to shut up and dribble or play football

1:09:26

or run to make our university great and

1:09:28

make us money, but we

1:09:30

don't want anything else to do with

1:09:32

your people or your culture or anything

1:09:35

like that. So I'm

1:09:38

not disagreeing with you, Tasha on that one. And

1:09:41

I'm sorry you said that happened to your

1:09:43

son. I'm so sorry. I'm sorry too. I heard

1:09:45

it in the stands. And I said, I think someone just

1:09:47

called my son the N word and

1:09:49

sure enough, a flag was flown and the

1:09:51

two refs on the field were also black

1:09:54

men. And I asked my son about it

1:09:56

later and he's like, yeah, I can't believe you said that right there

1:09:58

in front of the reps who were also black. just

1:10:00

kind of like, wait, what? I kind

1:10:02

of was like, wait, did that just

1:10:04

happen? Yeah. Because racism is taught. We're

1:10:06

not born racist. It's

1:10:09

a part of the system that you're born into, but

1:10:12

it's taught. It's learned behavior. And

1:10:16

that is the way we're curing our kids

1:10:18

now. And with

1:10:20

these other things, it's saying that

1:10:22

it's okay. It's justified that

1:10:25

I can do this and say this. And

1:10:27

so those of you who are, you know,

1:10:29

if you're white and you're raising black kids,

1:10:31

you need to lean into this

1:10:33

conversation, you know, because especially when

1:10:35

they go to college, like right now, they're

1:10:38

kind of protected and insulated a little

1:10:40

bit under you, under

1:10:42

that privilege. But when

1:10:44

they go to college, that's a black

1:10:46

kid. And are your

1:10:48

children going to be saved? And what happens

1:10:50

when that happens at school and

1:10:53

they're walking to their door and

1:10:55

that is done to them? Where do they

1:10:57

go? Where is their safe place?

1:11:00

Who are their safe people? If you're

1:11:02

erasing all of that from these institutions,

1:11:04

we ought to be a shame on ourselves. We

1:11:08

ought to be a shameless. I

1:11:10

wouldn't want that for any student,

1:11:13

you know, just like if you can have a

1:11:15

French club, why can't you have a

1:11:17

black club? I mean, who's to say like, you don't

1:11:19

come out there, you know,

1:11:21

gospel choirs and, you know, and,

1:11:25

you know, black fraternities and sororities

1:11:27

with the precedence that they're setting, those

1:11:30

things can be challenged, you

1:11:32

know. And it's hard for university professors having

1:11:34

to watch like, what do I know? What's

1:11:37

in my syllabus? What are we reading? Yeah.

1:11:39

And that becomes not, that doesn't become an

1:11:41

educational institution. It becomes fear. Fear.

1:11:44

And just here's what everyone is going

1:11:46

to line up. And I do think

1:11:48

if I'm sending a white student to

1:11:50

a university, you know, I want them

1:11:52

to also have access to multicultural things

1:11:54

and events. And I want

1:11:56

them to be able to function inside of

1:11:58

pluralized society. Yeah. Like. It's

1:12:01

not just for us, like African American history,

1:12:05

Latino, like black day history, that's

1:12:07

for all of us, Asian history. We

1:12:10

need to know the indigenous story here.

1:12:13

Like, you know what I'm saying? Like that's

1:12:15

important for me where I'm not, where I

1:12:17

don't miss out like saying, okay, I want

1:12:19

my 40 acres in the mule and

1:12:22

saying, what does that say and

1:12:24

mean to indigenous people? You

1:12:27

know what I'm saying? And so that's

1:12:29

important for us to know that story

1:12:31

so that they are not overlooked. It's

1:12:33

important for me to know how East

1:12:35

Asians are being overlooked in

1:12:37

positions because the caste system

1:12:40

has followed them into corporate

1:12:42

America here in Silicon

1:12:45

Valley. Like it's important for me

1:12:47

to know that and to be

1:12:49

able to understand that. So when I see it,

1:12:51

I can become an ally, you

1:12:54

know? And so it's important. It

1:12:56

makes us better. Diversity makes us

1:12:58

better. It does. Listen, Tasha,

1:13:01

we both got a heart rate. We both

1:13:03

got a little bit of sweaty armpits over

1:13:05

here. I know, I know. We're

1:13:08

ready. I always love conversation with you

1:13:10

because you make me think, you make me

1:13:12

dive into things that do feel uncomfortable. And

1:13:14

I always come out a better person on

1:13:16

the other side. And so I'm grateful for

1:13:18

you. Thank you for this book. You guys

1:13:21

is out everywhere. Brown faces, white spaces, confronting

1:13:23

systemic racism to bring healing and restoration.

1:13:26

Tasha, grateful for you. Thanks for coming on

1:13:28

Happy Hour. Thanks so much for having me,

1:13:30

Brad. The

1:13:36

Happy Hour is produced and hosted by

1:13:38

myself, Jamie Ivey, with assistance from

1:13:40

P. Ogden and Ashley Caldwell. It

1:13:43

is so dedicated to my face and family. Ready

1:13:54

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