0:02

Welcome to the Hello Someday

0:04

podcast, the podcast for busy women

0:06

who are ready to drink less

0:08

and live more. I'm Casey McGuire

0:10

Davidson, X -Red wine girl turned life

0:12

coach, helping women create lives they

0:15

love without alcohol. But it wasn't

0:17

that long ago that I was

0:19

anxious, overwhelmed and drinking a bottle

0:21

of wine a night to unwind.

0:23

I thought that wine was the

0:25

glue holding my life together, helping

0:28

me cope with my kids, my

0:30

stressful job and my busy life.

0:33

I didn't realize that my love

0:35

affair with drinking was making

0:37

me more anxious and less able

0:39

to manage my responsibilities. In

0:41

this podcast, my goal is to

0:43

teach you the tried and

0:45

true secrets of creating and living

0:47

a life you don't want

0:49

to escape from. Each week, I'll

0:51

bring you tools, lessons and

0:53

conversations to help you drink less

0:55

and live more. I'll teach

0:57

you how to navigate our drinking

0:59

obsessed culture without a buzz.

1:01

How to sit with your emotions

1:03

when you're lonely or angry,

1:05

frustrated or overwhelmed. How to self

1:07

soothe without a drink and

1:09

how to turn the decision to

1:11

stop drinking from your worst

1:13

case scenario to the best decision

1:15

of your life. I am so

1:17

glad you're here. Now let's get started. Hey

1:20

there, it's Casey. I have some

1:22

exciting news. Six months ago,

1:24

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1:26

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1:29

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1:59

And... By the way, it's not

2:01

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2:06

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2:14

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2:51

Hi there. Today we are talking

2:54

about how to not hate your

2:56

husband after you have kids and

2:58

I know for so many women

3:01

listening to this, it's a huge

3:03

issue. Having young kids is a

3:05

time when a lot of women's

3:08

drinking takes off because you get

3:10

rid of so many of your

3:12

self-care mechanisms and you are stuck

3:14

with going to work. driving to

3:17

daycare, coming home, starting the second

3:19

shift, and opening a bottle of

3:21

wine. I read this book and

3:24

loved it. My guest is Jancy

3:26

Dunn. She's the well columnist at

3:28

the New York Times. She is

3:30

also a New York Times best-selling

3:32

author. She has written nine books,

3:34

including How Not to Hate Your

3:36

Husband after Kids, which has been

3:38

published in 12 languages. She lives

3:40

in New Jersey with her husband,

3:42

the author Tom Vanderbilt, and their

3:44

daughter. So welcome, Jancy. I'm so

3:46

glad you're here. Oh, I am

3:48

too. Thank you for having me.

3:50

And I forgot to mention, but

3:52

you actually are sober as well.

3:54

You quit drinking 20 years

3:56

ago. I did. At the time, I

3:58

was working, you know, I've been a

4:00

writer for years and years and I

4:03

was working as an editor at Rolling

4:05

Stone magazine. And because I was out

4:07

and about and I had to go

4:09

to clubs as a part of my

4:11

job description, we could expense our bar

4:14

tab at that time. So as you

4:16

can imagine, I'm young, I'm in the

4:18

city, I'm having a great time, I'm

4:20

out every night, I'm seeing music, hearing

4:22

music rather, and so. So yes,

4:25

I took full advantage of that policy.

4:27

And I just, I'm not in a

4:29

program or anything, I just, and as

4:31

you've said many times, not that

4:33

there's anything wrong with being on

4:36

a program, I don't find any

4:38

stigma about it, but for me

4:40

personally, it's just that I started

4:42

really feeling horrible when I

4:44

woke up in the morning, my hangovers

4:46

increased, which often happens when you

4:49

get older, I know there's science

4:51

behind that. I just started kind

4:53

of weighing whether it was worth

4:55

it because I effectively started just

4:57

my next day was killed and

4:59

I had to work me, you

5:01

know, high functioning in the office

5:04

and so. I just stopped and I

5:06

realized when I stopped how much

5:08

I had relied on alcohol as

5:10

a way to get over my

5:12

shyness. I present as an extrovert

5:15

from many years of cause playing

5:17

being an extrovert, but I'm really

5:19

an introvert, which is I don't quite

5:21

know why I have a job where

5:24

I interview people all day. It's much

5:26

easier and cozier when it's on the

5:28

phone or if it's one-on-one. So, so

5:30

yes, I quit and it took... It

5:32

took a while, the most, the

5:34

greatest benefit was my sleep

5:37

started improving almost immediately, it

5:39

was shocking, and in which

5:41

case it had a cascade

5:43

effect, and then the rest

5:45

of my life, because my

5:47

sleep had improved, improved

5:49

dramatically my moods, my

5:51

relationships, my energy, my

5:54

ability to exercise, and,

5:56

and then from there, I just

5:58

had to get over using alcohol

6:00

is a crutch in social situations. And

6:02

I made myself walk into a party

6:05

alone, strike up conversations with people alone.

6:07

And it took a while, but now

6:09

it's second nature. And I really, I

6:11

don't, I don't, I don't miss it

6:13

at all. The, the, I'm, you address

6:16

this, I know, but they, now the

6:18

most, it's been so many years that

6:20

the most, the most difficult thing for

6:22

me is. reassuring everyone that I'm still

6:24

fun because it really gets people wigged

6:27

out when you tell me you don't

6:29

drink and in fact I still don't

6:31

have the right language for it. I'll

6:33

say like, oh I don't drink and

6:35

then everybody it's funny because you can

6:38

say, oh I don't eat because you

6:40

can say, oh I don't eat dairy

6:42

or whatever and everybody just sort of

6:44

nods. But when you say you don't

6:46

drink alcohol, it's, you know, and I

6:48

don't do it in a judgy way.

6:51

deal with that. But it's more about

6:53

the language that you use. And I'll

6:55

just say, oh, no, I don't drink.

6:57

But then that inevitably invites questions. It

6:59

never ends there. And so I've just

7:02

kind of learned to say, it just

7:04

made me feel like crap. So I

7:06

kind of quit. And that usually stops

7:08

the questions. I don't mind answering the

7:10

questions. But it's just very interesting to

7:13

be on the other side of that

7:15

and see how other people react. You

7:17

know. Well, I always say like I

7:19

used to be a huge red wine

7:21

girl and it was sort of part

7:24

of my identity I'd be like, oh,

7:26

I work in marketing live in Seattle

7:28

I'm a big red wine girl I

7:30

have two kids and now it's sort

7:32

of like the same thing except for

7:34

and I quit drinking, you know, and

7:37

so what I always tell people is

7:39

like, yeah, I used to be a

7:41

huge red wine girl, but I stopped

7:43

and I feel better without it and

7:45

I feel better without it and I

7:48

feel better without it. ends the conversation

7:50

or you know unless they're like oh

7:52

really was that hard you know yeah

7:54

that's that's a that's a nice way

7:56

to put it isn't it it's a

7:59

way that is and is the truth.

8:01

Yeah, yeah. Well, thank you for telling

8:03

us about that, and I am very

8:05

impressed that you stopped well. Were you

8:07

working at Rolling Stone at the time?

8:09

Yes, but as it turns out, it

8:12

was kind of the tail end, and

8:14

it was kind of, it was just

8:16

time for me to go anyway

8:18

and try something new, but yes,

8:21

then the temptation was pretty much

8:23

removed after about a year or so

8:25

when I missed. Yeah. Well, so I

8:27

told you I was reading your

8:29

book and had underlined and dog-eared

8:31

like so many pages throughout it

8:34

and I was sitting next to

8:36

my husband while I was doing

8:38

it and I was surprised with

8:40

your stories how much of my

8:42

rage and anger and resentment came

8:44

back at how much I remembered

8:46

all those little things that like

8:48

pissed me off so much. when

8:50

my first child was six months

8:52

older, a year old, because he

8:55

is 16 now and driving, and

8:57

you know, when they get older,

8:59

life gets a lot easier. You

9:01

kind of get your independence back,

9:03

but you were writing, one of

9:05

the first things you wrote in

9:07

the intro was, you know, when

9:09

people are, when you're pregnant, yada

9:11

yada, they tell you all this

9:13

stuff, and then the other one was,

9:15

oh, and get ready to hate

9:17

your husband. And I remember. after

9:19

I'd had my son, one of my

9:21

best friends had her son six months

9:23

later. And I remember telling her before

9:26

she had her son, I was like,

9:28

Oh yeah, and by the way, everyone

9:30

hates their husband when their kid is

9:33

six weeks old. And she was like,

9:35

that'll never happen with Maddie. We've been

9:37

together since high school. He's incredible, blah

9:39

blah blah. And I was like, okay,

9:42

that's awesome. And she called me right

9:44

around six weeks after her husband was

9:46

born. And she's like, I flew to

9:49

see my parents in Arizona if I

9:51

was gonna be a single mom. I

9:53

wish I'd just known that because he's

9:55

fucking a disaster and I hate him.

9:57

I had a similar.

10:00

And circumstance I had been together with

10:02

my husband for 10 years and he

10:04

was, you know, he was a progressive

10:06

guy and everything in our relationship had

10:09

when we had problems we sort of

10:11

we work them out and and I

10:13

just figured, okay, we've got a nice

10:15

set like your friend like we have

10:18

a nice solid foundation, we'll be fine.

10:20

It's just this is a, this is

10:22

a big change, but of course we

10:24

can handle it. And it just was.

10:27

Shocking to me, I mean, I know

10:29

that you were reading that next to

10:31

your husband, they don't love that title,

10:33

and I did try for other titles,

10:36

but let's face it, how to love

10:38

your husband after kids just doesn't have

10:40

the same residence, and everyone on our

10:42

marketing team said, no, no, that's the

10:45

title, because I tried for, you know,

10:47

a bunch of other titles, and then

10:49

I said, Is there room in the

10:52

budget for us to have some sort

10:54

of fake cover? Like, you know, introduction

10:56

to string theory or something that you

10:58

can just sort of, you know, slip

11:01

over the actual jacket, but they said

11:03

there wasn't a budget for it. So

11:05

I do get why it's, it, it

11:07

makes husbands or partners feel defensive. Yeah.

11:10

You know, it's funny on the marketing

11:12

team, it was all women and most

11:14

of them had kids and they said,

11:16

no, no, no. So anyway. It was

11:19

just an it was an utter shock

11:21

to me after I had the baby

11:23

my daughter she's now 15. Okay so

11:25

she I was going to ask how

11:28

old she is now. And and it

11:30

just was amazing how we slid back

11:32

into traditional roles and I was working

11:34

and he was working we were both

11:37

writers I was writing books he was

11:39

writing for magazines and newspapers so was

11:41

he we had about an equal workload

11:44

and he just I can remember things

11:46

that just set me off like he

11:48

would say, well, you're the expert, and

11:50

it would be about like changing diapers

11:53

where it doesn't actually require there's no

11:55

kind of like gendered skill set for

11:57

that. I'm not, I'm not the expert.

11:59

And he just started offloading

12:02

everything to me like the problem

12:04

I can with hindsight I can see

12:06

that his life actually didn't change that

12:09

much it his life kind of stayed

12:11

the same he went out on the

12:13

weekends he kept playing soccer he would

12:15

go he would just leave we lived

12:17

in Brooklyn at the time he would just

12:20

kind of leave at night and go out

12:22

with his friends and not like check in

12:24

or anything he just got you know and

12:26

I was still doing all a lot of.

12:28

the work and then the added workload

12:30

with even one kid and that's the

12:32

thing too I always feel funny because

12:35

sometimes when I do book events and

12:37

people will say well how many kids

12:39

do you have and I'll say one

12:41

and and I know that if you

12:43

have multiple kids it's just exponentially more

12:45

work potentially more friction and I only

12:47

had the one but I will say

12:49

that even if you just have one

12:51

it is an absolute it just turns

12:53

your world upside down. You just

12:55

cannot imagine until you're in it.

12:58

And yeah, I mean, I remember

13:00

like, I feel like men's life changes

13:02

20% and they resent that 80% and

13:05

women's life changes 80% and we resent

13:07

the 20. It's so unequal. It just

13:09

blows my mind and they don't realize

13:11

it but I remember on Saturdays I

13:13

would ask to go to the gym

13:16

and it took me an hour and

13:18

a half and he would take that

13:20

hour and half and his thing took

13:22

five hours and I was like that's

13:24

not equal you know what I mean. And

13:27

even there's been science I wrote

13:29

about in the book about like division

13:31

of labor that among the big five

13:33

tasks you know laundry and cooking and

13:35

all that that men that one of

13:37

the tasks they do the most is

13:40

food shopping and I can remember when

13:42

I started writing this book and really

13:44

researching it. I would go to my

13:46

supermarket and especially on the weekends, it

13:48

was all men because, you know, food trapping

13:50

is fun. It's more fun than scrubbing

13:52

toilets anyway, right? And cooking is more

13:54

fun than scrubbing toilets and that's one

13:56

of the things that women were doing

13:59

more often and so. Yeah it was just

14:01

I couldn't we weren't really big fighters

14:03

which I know is annoying when people

14:05

say that we had I'd met him

14:07

later in life I met him when

14:09

I was 35 I had dated a

14:11

series of wildly inappropriate men and when

14:13

I met him I knew within you

14:15

know I think we got married six

14:17

months after we met because we just

14:19

knew and I was just so happy

14:21

to meet him and we really had

14:23

just like a low key relationship with

14:26

these. you know kind of quiet living

14:28

writers we panicked and loud noises like

14:30

I thought okay this is going to

14:32

be fine and it wasn't and we

14:34

fought all the time we fought all

14:36

the time I can remember it really

14:38

came to a head one night when

14:40

I was I was kind of doing

14:42

all the stuff at once I was

14:44

cooking dinner I worked all day and

14:46

then I was cooking dinner. And I

14:48

was like banging pots and pans around

14:51

because I was annoyed which I this

14:53

that was on me because I didn't

14:55

say what I was annoyed about and

14:57

I was like simultaneously the kid was

14:59

a little older and I was like

15:01

getting her food together and then like

15:03

checking her something that she was doing

15:05

for school and preschool or something it

15:07

was just a I was like this

15:09

octopus and he kind of came in

15:11

and I thought oh he's gonna help

15:13

me out and he kind of helped

15:16

me out and he kind of And

15:18

you know, there were just things like

15:20

that that just, and then we got

15:22

in a fight and I, he's kind

15:24

of a stonewaller when we fight and

15:26

I'm more of like, I have more

15:28

of a temper and so what my

15:30

kids saw was me losing it and

15:32

him being defensive and me attacking. And

15:34

so it got to the point, you

15:36

know, where. she would jump in front

15:38

of him and say don't yell at

15:41

daddy and I thought okay and the

15:43

sad thing that I see now is

15:45

when I realize like I have to

15:47

do something about this we have to

15:49

go to counseling I wasn't thinking like

15:51

a book project but I thought like

15:53

you know I have to research this

15:55

I write about mental health I write

15:57

about relationships what I'm failing here what's

15:59

wrong with me. And the impetus for

16:01

doing it was I thought, oh, we're ruining

16:03

our kid, you know, and, and

16:06

that's, that's kind of sad, like,

16:08

it wasn't, oh, my relationship

16:10

is crumbling, because at that

16:12

point, I really was contemplating

16:14

divorce, you know, like, oh,

16:16

you're, this is not working

16:18

at all, and this hasn't

16:20

been working. And it was that

16:23

I was, I thought, oh, you know, now

16:25

my kid is absorbing this, this is

16:27

a problem. This is the thing about the

16:29

book too is that I really want to

16:31

get across is that this is me taking

16:34

a hard look at myself and my behavior

16:36

to my goisism of like oh I can

16:38

do it all then resenting him that I

16:40

wasn't asking for help you know not sitting

16:43

down and like divvying up household

16:45

chores which is so boring the

16:47

most boring conversation you could ever

16:49

have but like. One counselor told me something

16:51

I know I'm all over the place but

16:53

this is like opening it up for me

16:56

to like oh no no right it like

16:58

brings it all back. Oh my god right

17:00

and but one counselor told me

17:02

that I thought about it a lot that tension

17:05

arises when things are not clear

17:07

and that was that compelled me

17:09

to take a hard look at

17:11

what am I not making clear

17:13

I wasn't making my feelings clear

17:15

I wasn't making my feelings clear

17:18

I wasn't making my feelings clear.

17:20

and even like being clear about

17:22

what person has what duty. Also

17:24

me being a maternal gatekeeper, you know,

17:26

I would say like, oh, you don't,

17:28

you don't bathe the baby. And then

17:31

he would try to bathe the baby

17:33

and I would like hover behind him

17:35

like a buzzard and I'd be like,

17:37

okay, wait, no, you have to support

17:40

her head like what, no, she's gonna

17:42

slip, she's gonna drown, you know, you

17:44

know, that's annoying, and how is

17:46

he's supposed to learn if I'm if I'm,

17:48

if I'm, Like trying to control things

17:50

all the time and so it was

17:53

also about relinquishing control. But going back

17:55

to your original question, the way I'm

17:57

talking you may not be able to ask another.

18:00

question I'm sorry is there anything you

18:02

want to say is is that yeah

18:04

it was it was shocking and it

18:06

was upsetting and so I just I

18:09

mean I can remember also like going

18:11

back to thinking I was going to

18:13

ruin my kid one thing that when

18:16

we were fighting when she was really

18:18

little because again like six months really

18:20

is this time of reckoning I feel

18:23

like I don't know if there's research

18:25

on this but you're friend like there's

18:27

something about that time period When everything

18:30

really gels, when you're kind of in

18:32

the routine and you think, oh, these

18:34

routines are messed up. And so that's

18:37

what happened with us. And I can

18:39

remember thinking, oh, well, the baby doesn't

18:41

know what's going on. We can fight

18:44

in front of the baby. Who cares?

18:46

But there is research that babies as

18:48

young as six months. They do absorb

18:50

the stress, their heart rates go up

18:53

when you're fighting, when they hear angry

18:55

arguments. you know, from their parents that

18:57

they do have a physiological reaction. And

19:00

so I thought, ah, right, so it

19:02

doesn't bounce off of her. I'm actually

19:04

doing damage. So, so again, once I

19:07

sort of realized, okay, this is really

19:09

critical, I thought I have to do

19:11

something about it, but one thing I

19:14

didn't do that is kind of, I

19:16

think back on it like, wow, is,

19:18

is I didn't even talk to, I

19:21

have two sisters, I have two sisters.

19:23

I kind of talked a little bit

19:25

about it. I could have asked them

19:28

a little bit about it, but I

19:30

didn't really. I couldn't talk to my

19:32

mother because my mother has a long

19:34

memory. And if I said anything about

19:37

Tom, who she loves so much like

19:39

a son, but she would never forget

19:41

it. You just can't tell your parents

19:44

certain things. I just felt like I

19:46

couldn't tell anybody. I couldn't. even talk

19:48

to people on the playground about it.

19:51

I could sort of joke around lightly

19:53

about it. But I didn't really get

19:55

into it like, wait, I don't know

19:58

if we're gonna make it and. my

20:00

feelings of hostility for him are so deep

20:02

and I don't even know if I

20:04

know him because this behavior that

20:06

I'm seeing is not not what I

20:09

expected at all and is he some

20:11

sort of like is he like pining

20:13

for these for the retro days when

20:15

women did everything like I don't know

20:17

it was just it was I really

20:19

felt alone and on social media of

20:22

course oh my god there was so many

20:24

photos of people posting when they

20:26

had newborns and everybody looks well

20:28

rested. And everyone looks calm and

20:30

happy. And you know, hashtag blessed.

20:32

And I'm like, I can hate

20:34

that. Oh my God with that,

20:36

right? And you said that's like

20:38

the worst. Well, it isn't. It's

20:40

also sort of like, oh, does that

20:43

mean that you're signaled out to

20:45

be blessed? Like, there's something fake

20:47

humble about it that I can't

20:49

stand. Oh, God. It's totally fake humble.

20:52

Yeah, I mean, I just, it's so

20:54

hard. And this is why a lot

20:56

of women, when they have kids, get

20:58

together with each other and drink and

21:01

bitch about their husbands, which I think

21:03

the bitching is totally valid. And I

21:05

mean, not that we don't have our

21:07

part and not that we can't improve.

21:09

Like I love that your book had

21:12

a lot of really tangible strategies that

21:14

you can use and I want to

21:16

talk about them, but like, you either

21:18

like get together with your friends

21:20

and drink. or you know for

21:23

me I would I would open

21:25

a bottle of wine when I

21:27

came home with my kid because

21:29

I used to be able to

21:31

go do other things and you

21:33

can multitask when like you can

21:35

drink wine while playing candy land

21:37

you know it's really boring you

21:39

can drink wine while doing laundry

21:41

it sounds stupid but you can't

21:43

so it's really hard and and

21:45

yeah you're supposed to everybody tells

21:47

you like this is the best time

21:49

of your life but it It's so humbling.

21:52

I mean, I remember like pumping milk before

21:54

I went back to work at the dining

21:56

room table some morning and my husband comes

21:58

down and like you said. like my

22:00

hostility was just radiating off

22:02

me from like a million

22:05

small slights and he was

22:07

like I think you're depressed

22:09

maybe you have postpartum depression

22:11

and I was like maybe

22:13

you need a fucking step

22:15

up and do something useful.

22:17

Thanks Doc. You're like right?

22:19

Yeah that I mean I

22:22

had so many friends that

22:24

that drank a lot, drank

22:26

a bottle a night and

22:28

it was of wine because

22:30

they, they felt isolated, they

22:32

felt socially isolated, they felt

22:34

physically isolated, and this was

22:37

something that they could control,

22:39

you know, they could sort

22:41

of mitigate what they were

22:43

feeling or, you know, or

22:45

again, like you say, like,

22:47

making certain kind of mundane

22:49

tasks a little easier and...

22:51

I like to fuck you

22:54

to the other person, like,

22:56

I don't know. No, I

22:58

know there's this you're you're

23:00

absolutely right. There's so many

23:02

different factors that can go

23:04

into it can be it

23:06

can be defiance. Yes, rebellion

23:09

against adulting something. Yes, and

23:11

and so I had I

23:13

can't even really thinking back

23:15

so many friends doing that

23:17

and again, it was a

23:19

place where you could sort

23:21

of. if you're with other

23:23

friends to get loose. And

23:26

at that point, I had

23:28

quit, but I went to

23:30

many of those kind of

23:32

gatherings where, you know, we

23:34

would just sort of laugh

23:36

and stuff, but it didn't,

23:38

but it didn't solve, you

23:41

know, the core problem. It

23:43

just, yeah. It actually makes

23:45

it worse, like with depression

23:47

and anxiety and sleep and

23:49

all the anger comes out

23:51

when you're drinking or at

23:53

least it did for me,

23:55

but also I drank. while

23:58

my son was young. I

24:00

stopped for a bit when

24:02

he was five and then

24:04

I quit for good when

24:06

he was eight. So I

24:08

drank through most of his

24:10

baby toddler years. My daughter,

24:12

I drank for about 22

24:15

months and then I quit.

24:17

So her two years and

24:19

after I didn't drink it.

24:21

I have to say that

24:23

parenting without a hangover and

24:25

without adding alcohol to your

24:27

life is so much easier

24:30

than doing it when you're

24:32

drinking and hung over. So

24:34

I've just experienced both sides

24:36

of it. But yeah, it's

24:38

not easy. So I wanted

24:40

to ask you when I

24:42

was reading the book, one

24:44

of the stats blew my

24:47

mind, although I totally believed

24:49

it, was something about men

24:51

actually doing More housework before

24:53

they had kids than after

24:55

like they do less after

24:57

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and feel great. Correct.

27:08

Isn't that wild? That's insane.

27:10

Yes. I mean, you know, research

27:12

like that, when I started researching

27:14

the book, it really was comforting.

27:17

I put a lot of it

27:19

in the book because you think,

27:21

okay, I'm not insane. Like, this

27:24

is actually... a studied phenomenon,

27:26

you know, but yes, and the researchers

27:28

are trying to tease out why that

27:30

is, I mean, again, I can bring

27:33

it back to my own story that

27:35

I am used to, I've worked forever,

27:37

and I'm used to being like

27:39

capable, and this was just another

27:41

challenge it was thrown at me,

27:44

and so I was just like,

27:46

oh, okay, I've got this because that's

27:48

what I, even now when I do

27:50

self, when I do self talk, the

27:52

thing I say that most probably, And

27:55

so that was definitely,

27:58

I probably. seemed

28:00

more capable than I was again

28:02

on me, and or on us,

28:04

maybe, you know, but that was,

28:06

yeah, that was, that was an

28:08

eye opener, there are many, there

28:10

are many, there are many, I

28:12

openness, once you dig, it's, it's

28:15

kind of incredible, and, and also

28:17

that, you know, men who are

28:19

in their 20s, but they, they

28:21

really do in, you know, hetero

28:23

relationships, but they, they really have,

28:25

the best intentions, you know, they

28:27

say that they're going to help,

28:29

they're going to do 50-50, they're

28:31

going to help with this, help

28:33

with that, and then they just

28:35

don't. And so they can even

28:37

kind of mean well or have

28:39

good intentions, like my husband did,

28:41

although our problem was that I

28:44

think subsequent generations, they're talking about

28:46

it a little bit more, I

28:48

hope, but we didn't have one

28:50

conversation about the nuts and bolts.

28:52

of having a kid, not one.

28:54

We talked about, what color are

28:56

we going to paint the baby's

28:58

room? So many com- it's a

29:00

fun conversation to have, isn't it?

29:02

Oh yeah. You want to do

29:04

something that is intriguing. What kind

29:06

of glider do you want? Like

29:08

what should we name? Oh, names.

29:10

the most fun conversation ever, you

29:13

know, and, you know, hours and

29:15

hours we would take walks when

29:17

we lived in Brooklyn and, and,

29:19

you know, oh, what if it's

29:21

a boy, what if it's a

29:23

girl, you know, maybe we could

29:25

do a name that would apply

29:27

to either and, and, and, and

29:29

it was, I don't think we

29:31

had one conversation about the actual,

29:33

partly because you're clueless, like you

29:35

don't really know, even when people

29:37

tell you, it's sort of, you

29:39

know, Who's staying home when the

29:42

baby gets sick? We both work.

29:44

Oh my God. Like, what are

29:46

weekends going to look like? What,

29:48

you know, what if, who's getting

29:50

up in the middle of the

29:52

night? Like, who's, you know, all

29:54

that stuff and like baby laundry

29:56

it was bizarre to me and

29:58

I had been warned by many

30:00

people like you can't believe how

30:02

much laundry a baby or a

30:04

toddler generates it is it is

30:06

crazy like who's going to do

30:08

the laundry at the time we

30:11

lived in an apartment where there

30:13

was three laundry units for like

30:15

38 units and so there was

30:17

I was constantly like hauling laundry

30:19

downstairs and there was someone in

30:21

there and I would be in

30:23

a rage so you know having

30:25

really practical conversations Before while while

30:27

while someone is pregnant or if

30:29

you're adopting why you're waiting for

30:31

the adoption or anything like that

30:33

like it is crucial and it

30:35

isn't just division of labor where

30:37

I advise in the book like.

30:40

And it's not too late even

30:42

if it's years later Saturday get

30:44

ready to have the most boring

30:46

conversation in the world I I

30:48

have a sweet tooth I like

30:50

to have when we did it

30:52

I had lots of like sweets

30:54

around and we just had like

30:56

coffee and you know cake and

30:58

we just. debate up everything and

31:00

we did it by preference which

31:02

research shows gay couples are better

31:04

at they're not kind of you

31:06

know encumbered by traditional gender roles

31:09

and so I kind of followed

31:11

their lead like what do you

31:13

like I happen to love grocery

31:15

shopping so he doesn't like it

31:17

so I do that okay one

31:19

down like clarity helps a lot

31:21

and you know all these you

31:23

know I have a bunch of

31:25

I have a list in the

31:27

book of like things that you

31:29

can go over with your partner

31:31

just life stuff just like just

31:33

stuff and so it's not this

31:36

last minute scramble where you end

31:38

up either fighting about who has

31:40

the more vital work schedule if

31:42

you both work or always who

31:44

is the most well slept and

31:46

thus is more equipped to deal

31:48

with whatever you know is coming

31:50

up there was there's constant fights

31:52

about like who's in better you

31:54

know shape mentally to deal with

31:56

this and so so having those

31:58

conversations ahead of time and even,

32:00

even, even philosophizing. conversations would have

32:02

been a big help because, you

32:05

know, John and Julie Gottman, the

32:07

famous couples counselors, they advise asking

32:09

each other, sitting down and just

32:11

saying like, and you can do this

32:13

at any point, even now, like, you

32:16

know, with us having teenagers,

32:18

it could be name five ways

32:20

that you were parented that you would

32:22

like to replicate in your family

32:24

life now, and name five ways

32:27

that you were parented. that you

32:29

don't want replicated with you and

32:31

your kids. And that was, you

32:34

know, values is a word that

32:36

we kind of throw around, but

32:38

that was a way to kind

32:40

of get at what your values

32:42

are. And that's a great question,

32:44

right? Because it's not about you and

32:46

what you're doing. Right. Exactly.

32:48

They were there. Of course

32:50

they're so good at this. Right.

32:53

And and and and so that

32:55

really kind of drilled down to

32:57

how how We want our family

32:59

culture to be, you know, and

33:01

so that helped a lot too,

33:04

but just regular conversations where as

33:06

boring as it is, like a

33:08

family meeting that you have, we

33:10

still have them, I started

33:12

them when I was writing

33:14

the book, like just regular

33:17

check-in meetings, we do check-in

33:19

walks now, but it's really

33:21

to talk about all the

33:23

quotidian stuff in your life,

33:25

including... you know I mean of

33:28

course there's it does become

33:30

a lot easier as you

33:32

say with kids but you

33:34

know there's still logistical stuff

33:36

and just to make sure

33:38

that we're both okay which we

33:40

we were not doing either and

33:42

we another counselor had told me

33:45

I saw we saw several said

33:47

take 10 minutes and take a

33:49

walk and take a walk for you

33:51

know if you can Well I guess if

33:53

you're both there and you have a baby you can't.

33:55

This is when she was a little older. But just

33:58

take 10 minutes a day where you're not... talking

34:00

about your kid. It can be anything

34:02

except logistics like we need more paper

34:04

towels and your kid just talk about

34:07

anything you used to talk about before

34:09

you had kids and 10 minutes it

34:11

can be 10 minutes on a book

34:14

or a TV show that you like

34:16

just something that is connects you to

34:18

your partner. And so we really we

34:21

started that habit and we we never

34:23

stopped. So that was helpful also. Yeah.

34:25

No, totally. My husband and I do

34:28

that every Friday night now. We just

34:30

have a big yard, like an acre.

34:32

And so every Friday after dinner, it's

34:34

kind of how we kick off the

34:37

weekend. And my daughter is 10 now,

34:39

but for years, she'd be like, oh,

34:41

are you and dad going for your

34:44

walk? And I was like, yeah, we

34:46

are. So like, it's our way of

34:48

like transitioning, which really helps. I think

34:51

it's a lot harder when you're sucked

34:53

into that like resentment anger cycle. I

34:55

love in your book you are super

34:58

super open about your couples therapy and

35:00

about your anger and how mad you

35:02

were and like exactly the things that

35:05

were hard. You said you take an

35:07

honest look at yourself and I, I

35:09

really appreciate that. Of course, I'm like,

35:11

yeah, but he's done all the shit

35:14

that he shouldn't have like, there's the

35:16

story where he didn't pick up your

35:18

daughter on time and you were out

35:21

at a work event downtown. Like I

35:23

feel that rage. Right, like how could

35:25

you, I remember, there were sometimes when

35:28

I've never been as mad at anyone

35:30

as I was with him and by

35:32

the way. you saying that you have

35:35

this Friday night ritual. I mean, I

35:37

know you know this but it's really

35:39

lovely to model that kind of behavior

35:42

for your daughter to see that you

35:44

prioritize that time together and that she

35:46

knows this and she's internalized this whether

35:48

she knows it or not and it's

35:51

just it's just really nice and you

35:53

know, I mean that's what I also

35:55

say in the book is like. If

35:58

you like me are like, oh, I

36:00

don't want to ruin my kid or

36:02

oh, I need to behave better in

36:05

front of my kid, like if that's

36:07

your way in, if that's your gateway

36:09

to fix your relationship, whatever works, you

36:12

know, anyway, what you were saying is,

36:14

yes, the, the rage that I felt,

36:16

it was, it was disproportionate and I

36:18

can remember, also feeling shame like, like,

36:21

like, what's wrong with me, it's one

36:23

kid. And I've had a privileged background

36:25

and a privileged life compared to so

36:28

many other people like the shame component

36:30

of it too. It's hard to get

36:32

over because you think, oh my God,

36:35

why am I whining about this like

36:37

like everybody's like first world problems and

36:39

you're like, but they are problems like

36:42

they're legit and that's your, you know,

36:44

what Terry real one of the counselors

36:46

that we saw in the book. I

36:49

love him. I love his work so

36:51

much. He calls it a biosphere. He

36:53

calls it a biosphere a biosphere. when

36:55

you're fighting you're polluting your biosphere like

36:58

that's your family culture that you've established

37:00

and when you're fighting that all swirls

37:02

around in that biosphere it's not like

37:05

it leaves you know and he's he's

37:07

absolutely right so yes we would go

37:09

to we went to counselors we went

37:12

to Terry real and every lot of

37:14

people know who he is you know

37:16

and he's he's really pretty renowned in

37:19

the world of counseling so we went

37:21

for a week long I'm a weekend

37:23

long session with him where he does

37:26

these intentsives that are really kind of

37:28

terrifying because he does he pulls no

37:30

punches and so we went and this

37:32

is how this is what a mess

37:35

our relationship was we couldn't find a

37:37

babysitter my husband Tom and I because

37:39

we never went out with each other

37:42

and babysitters in New York City are

37:44

also expensive. And but we never even

37:46

thought to do things like, oh, you

37:49

know, take another person's kid and trade

37:51

off like trade off babysitting we knew

37:53

tons of families with young kids like

37:56

we just didn't think we just didn't

37:58

prioritize our relationship at all. We

38:00

couldn't find anybody, my parents were

38:02

too old, they felt weird about

38:04

taking her. We took our kid, I

38:07

think she was like, four at the time,

38:09

to our marriage counseling intensive

38:11

in Boston. We went from New

38:13

York to Boston, we spent a

38:15

weekend there, we got a hotel,

38:17

and we stuck her in the next

38:19

room, oh my God, we stuck her

38:21

in the next room with headphones on

38:24

and put her in front of, you

38:26

know, an iPad, and she watched, I

38:28

don't know. lose clues or whatever she

38:30

was watching at the time and and

38:32

then we had our marriage sessions it

38:34

would be like a couple of hours

38:36

and then a break and then a

38:38

night time we would go home to

38:40

the hotel and you know his sessions

38:43

are not cheap and it was worth every

38:45

penny because he I've never been

38:47

that vulnerable with anybody

38:49

in my life there's something about

38:51

him and so he drilled down

38:54

to our problems he had us

38:56

first separate I am such I am

38:58

such a proponent of counseling

39:00

and I know it can

39:02

be expensive but like having a

39:05

third party forensically examine

39:07

your relationship is so

39:10

important and you know you

39:12

can go to your friends or

39:14

your sisters or whomever and they're

39:16

gonna be like you go girl

39:19

you know what exactly you know

39:21

and like men there's research

39:23

they don't confide in their

39:25

friends as much about this sort

39:28

of stuff. And so to have somebody

39:30

really, you know, we went

39:32

to several counselors, but Terry

39:35

was the most impactful

39:37

because he takes sides,

39:39

he's unusual, and he also

39:41

tells you things, he is really

39:43

blunt. And so within an hour,

39:45

he said to Tom, why aren't

39:48

you helping her out? And I had

39:50

told him about that story that you

39:52

relayed earlier about him not picking up

39:54

the kid or like he he was

39:56

constantly doing chess he was doing social

39:58

chess on his phone. And he would

40:01

just lay on the couch and

40:03

do social tests why I was

40:05

doing everything. It would make me

40:07

so mad. But did I say

40:09

get up and help me know?

40:11

So Terry said, why aren't you

40:13

helping her? This is not the

40:15

19th century. Get off your ass

40:17

and help her out. She's drowning.

40:19

And he like, Tom's hair was

40:22

blowing back. Terry went on and

40:24

on and on and on. And

40:26

of course I was like, yeah,

40:28

this is great. I love counseling.

40:30

And By the end of it,

40:32

I could see Tom is very

40:34

gentle and kind and he's not

40:36

confrontational and he was turning, turning

40:38

gray and just like, retracting into

40:41

himself like like, like, like this

40:43

snail in a shell and by

40:45

the end of it, I felt

40:47

sorry for Tom, but then Terry

40:49

turned to me and said, and

40:51

you, and I thought, me, what

40:53

am I doing wrong? You know,

40:55

and he said, just talked about

40:57

all the reasons. Oh my God.

40:59

He said, you sure are comfortable

41:02

being a martyr. Time for you

41:04

to climb off the cross. And

41:06

I thought, oh, you know, he

41:08

said, you're grandiose, you love being

41:10

right, you love being, you know,

41:12

I'm trying to think of the

41:14

language he used, it was like,

41:16

because there is something sort of

41:18

empowering about like feeling justified and

41:21

like, and so, righteous indignation, that's

41:23

what I was looking for. Thank

41:25

you, Casey. And so they, he

41:27

said, That stops today. And sometimes

41:29

I did lapse, but. From then

41:31

on, maybe because I didn't relish

41:33

the idea of going back to

41:35

Terry for another weekend intensive. because

41:37

it almost killed me in a

41:39

good way. But I used all

41:42

my willpower and I really, I

41:44

stopped yelling after that intensive and

41:46

I, I, I still got my

41:48

point across, but he said that

41:50

there is nothing that yelling can

41:52

do that kind of loving firmness

41:54

can't do better. And so I

41:56

don't mean to sound like, aren't

41:58

I great? I stopped yelling like

42:01

I know how irritating that sounds.

42:03

I just mean. that A he

42:05

scared me and B he made

42:07

me look at myself and and

42:09

and C I realized that like

42:11

especially when I was watching Tom

42:13

get yell that and like how

42:15

how sad he looked I thought

42:17

oh you know I really I

42:19

really do love him and like

42:22

how did it come to this

42:24

and so so we put a

42:26

bunch of things in place kind

42:28

of behaviors in place that we

42:30

tried and you know because yelling

42:32

and name calling and swearing and

42:34

seething with resentment and rage cooking,

42:36

which I also did like banging

42:38

pots and pans around hoping he's

42:41

gonna eat. He never noticed, you

42:43

know, and, and, and what, what,

42:45

he probably was like, I don't

42:47

want to go in there, she's

42:49

all pissed, right? Right. So more

42:51

like the chest that enrages me

42:53

too just like playing on your

42:55

phone and while I'm like getting

42:57

the kids ready and running out

42:59

the door like my husband would

43:02

sit there scrolling on his phone

43:04

while I was running around getting

43:06

the kids ready and breakfast and

43:08

out the door and he would

43:10

then like an hour later roll

43:12

out of bed get ready and

43:14

leave before I left and I

43:16

was like a parallel reality. Like

43:18

just a single guy, right? Like

43:21

I was like, what the actual

43:23

fuck? You got up an hour

43:25

after me and you're out the

43:27

door before me and we're both

43:29

going to work. Right. And like,

43:31

Terry had said to him, I

43:33

want you to familiarize yourself with

43:35

this phrase, need a hand, not

43:37

tell me what to do, need

43:39

a hand. If she's doing something

43:42

and you're not, like, I remember

43:44

another rule that one of my

43:46

friends instituted when we all started

43:48

talking about this more, when the

43:50

book came out, I can't tell

43:52

you how many friends were like,

43:54

oh my God, this is my

43:56

life. And I said, why didn't

43:58

you tell me? Why weren't we

44:01

telling each other? This is so

44:03

silly. If we're all experiencing it,

44:05

why do we have this shame?

44:07

But she said that she, she

44:09

instituted a rule in her house,

44:11

like in the kitchen, if I'm

44:13

up and doing stuff, everyone's up

44:15

and doing stuff. Like, like I'm.

44:17

Because it was that thing right

44:20

where where you're preparing or you're

44:22

loading the dishwasher for the 75th

44:24

time that day and everyone else

44:26

is sitting down or they're on

44:28

their phones or they're just like

44:30

checked out and so so yeah

44:32

you have to be this squeaky

44:34

wheel and because you know in

44:36

traditional relationships right now of course

44:38

men don't want to change the

44:41

status quo especially in two working

44:43

relationships it's working for them right.

44:45

So we have to do it

44:47

I wish it weren't so, but

44:49

that's kind of the way that

44:51

it is now and so so

44:53

it was a little bit more

44:55

on me because I was desperate

44:57

for change he was not but

45:00

I kept saying to him like

45:02

look at all this research I

45:04

would print it out to show

45:06

him because again he's a reporter

45:08

as well and I would say

45:10

when. when I feel supported, you

45:12

will be happier. This will benefit

45:14

you directly when I'm not rage

45:16

cooking, when I'm not like angrily

45:18

folding laundry like, you know, it's

45:21

amazing how you can postally fold

45:23

laundry. Postily do anything. Yeah, and

45:25

he would pretend he didn't see

45:27

I knew he saw it was

45:29

like this, you know, poisonous cloud

45:31

around me. And in fact, it

45:33

was this kind of. Upward spiral

45:35

where the more he would say

45:37

things like need a hand which

45:40

is just like the best thing

45:42

you could ever say right need

45:44

a hand. Yes, why yes, you

45:46

know, and then you have to

45:48

be like a growing to and

45:50

be like, yes, could you please

45:52

do this, you know, relish being

45:54

the manager again, but like that's

45:56

the world we're living in right

45:58

now, but it. It just got

46:01

better and better and better to

46:03

the point where the times where

46:05

I did yell because of course

46:07

I wasn't perfect, it felt

46:10

weird, it felt like unnatural.

46:12

And that was definitely some

46:14

progress. So yeah. I love

46:16

some of the strategies you

46:18

had in here too, like

46:20

the hostage negotiation one I

46:23

thought was amazing when you

46:25

talked about like how I

46:27

think that was Terry. too,

46:29

like how he instituted like

46:32

the hostage negotiation strategies, like

46:34

minimal encouragement, mirroring, open-ended

46:36

questions, like all that good stuff.

46:39

Can you tell me a little bit

46:41

more about that? Yes, that was such

46:43

a fun one because I remember being

46:45

at the gym and I had seen

46:47

some sort of hostage situation on the

46:49

news or something. The news was always

46:51

running at my gym and I thought,

46:54

oh, those those guys get... In they

46:56

managed to like rest away a gun

46:58

from some guy in like three minutes

47:00

I thought wait what do they do

47:02

to calm people down so quickly you

47:05

know and so I called up the

47:07

former head of the S the FBI's

47:09

hostage negotiation unit his name is Gary

47:12

Nesner I'm still in touch with him

47:14

I had dinner with him not long

47:16

ago he's a delightful guy and. I

47:18

said, listen, could this, could your techniques

47:21

apply to relationships? And he said,

47:23

oh, yeah, you know, I mean,

47:25

my wife is on to it

47:27

when, when I do it with

47:29

her, but there's this kind of

47:31

eight part behavioral plan that he

47:33

helped develop. And so, yes, one

47:35

of the things is, so there's

47:37

a bunch of steps. And so

47:40

I know when Tom is doing

47:42

it now, but it's kind of

47:44

funny because I'll be like, you're

47:46

doing the FBI thing, right? So

47:48

here it is, it's, and I talked

47:50

to this other, I talked to

47:52

several experts who are former FBI

47:55

guys, but, so it's offering minimal

47:57

encouragement. Okay, so when the person

47:59

is starting. to vent, you just say

48:01

minimal encouragement is like, yeah, okay, I see.

48:03

And it's really, if somebody's going, mm-hmm, mm-hmm,

48:05

yep, it's hard to be mad at them,

48:07

okay? And then another one is mirroring. And

48:09

so that's just repeating the last few words

48:11

from the other person that when they're talking

48:13

to sort of build report. So if I'm

48:15

like going off and I'm like, and I'm

48:18

angry, Tom has, he'll say, and you're angry,

48:20

and you're angry. And immediately it takes the

48:22

wind out of my sails. Okay, so another

48:24

is asking open-ended questions. So, you know, even

48:26

though it can open up, you know, a

48:28

can of worms, you could say, okay, could

48:30

you tell me more about that? Just to,

48:32

just to let people know that you're tracking

48:34

them, that you're listening. I mean, people just

48:36

want to be heard, no matter what expert

48:39

I was talking to, whether it was, you

48:41

know, the former head of the FBI crisis

48:43

negotiation unit or a counselor. People want to

48:45

be heard and that's one of the problems

48:47

that we have. Okay, so another one is

48:49

using I messages. So as Gary said, it

48:51

was to drop the cop. So what you

48:53

do is you say, it's like instead of

48:55

saying don't yell at me, you say I'm

48:57

having trouble understanding you because you're yelling. So

49:00

it's just I, so that it's not you

49:02

because you can immediately put you on the

49:04

defensive. Another is allowing effective pauses. This was

49:06

a funny one because. Gary said that sometimes

49:08

they would just strategically keep it really they

49:10

would stop talking and the person would sort

49:12

of calm down because they didn't know whether

49:14

the agents were still listening or not and

49:16

it can be a way where you just

49:18

take a breath but paraphrasing was really my

49:20

favorite and I use it all the time

49:23

and I know this is psychology one on

49:25

one and a lot of people do this

49:27

but when you take a moment to Rephrase

49:29

what the person is saying or what the

49:31

message is. trying to get across in your

49:33

own words, it indicates that you have to

49:35

use a little mental process in order to

49:37

do that that you weren't just because I

49:39

can tell Tom uses his ghost voice which

49:41

I also wrote about like I can tell

49:44

he's not listening and he's playing social chess

49:46

on his phone because I'll say like do

49:48

you want like some you know sauce with

49:50

this or whatever I was making you be

49:52

like yes I want some sauce with this

49:54

and I would know he wasn't even listening

49:56

but if paraphrase you have to at least

49:58

grasp what the other person is saying and

50:00

there's something really gratifying when you know you

50:02

are being heard so paraphrasing I cannot stress

50:05

enough if you say okay so you know

50:07

what you're I think what you're trying to

50:09

say is and then try it if you

50:11

miss they'll correct you or you can laugh

50:13

if it's wildly off course which Tom has

50:15

been you know many times. It's so funny

50:17

that sometimes I can't help but laugh. And

50:19

so that helps a lot and it really

50:21

does calm you down quickly. So we use

50:23

that one all the time years later. Yeah,

50:26

you know what's funny is I read a

50:28

book that was all about parenting toddlers and

50:30

they had this comment like they were all

50:32

these different strategies and it was something about

50:34

when they're a toddler like treat them like

50:36

Neanderthals. But one of the things they said

50:38

is like you have to get like. to

50:40

their same level of being upset and again

50:42

repeat what they want. So it's like, you

50:44

know, you're like, you're mad. You don't want

50:46

to take enough like whatever it was, like,

50:49

you know, just like mirroring their emotions so

50:51

they feel hurt. And then I was at

50:53

work and I was really mad about like

50:55

something some decision that happened that like negated

50:57

the work I did and I thought was

50:59

going to be bad for customers. And someone

51:01

did it to me. They were like. You're

51:03

pissed. I was like, yeah, pissed. You think

51:05

it's unfair? Yes. Like, it's bad for the

51:07

customer. I was like, back for the customer.

51:10

And I was like, oh my God, they

51:12

did it to me. But it worked. Yes.

51:14

everyone wants to be heard. Toddlers, us, you

51:16

know, it's it's you're absolutely right. So yes,

51:18

how do you get your husband to like

51:20

buy into that? I mean, you know, it's

51:22

like almost like they won't read this because

51:24

they'll get maybe they will, but they'll get

51:26

totally like riled up and feel defensive in

51:28

the beginning. But like you, I mean, yes,

51:31

we need to do it to them. But

51:33

in the book you stated like, at least

51:35

with my husband, like his strategy was to

51:37

like, I don't know, ignore me or go

51:39

to the bathroom four times for 20 minutes

51:41

or like our lawn has never looked better

51:43

than when I have my second daughter hours,

51:45

like five hours a day on the lawn

51:47

on the weekends. Oh yeah, yes. And so

51:49

my way to get my husband to buy

51:52

into it is I just sat him down

51:54

and said, obviously what we're doing right now

51:56

isn't working. This is broken. It is absolutely

51:58

broken and we're both. miserable. I have these

52:00

strategies that I've been researching like, can you

52:02

give me a month where I we try

52:04

it my way? I think you will be

52:06

happier. I think we will both be happier

52:08

and I threw in the kid like and

52:10

and our daughter will be happier because she

52:13

was starting to pick up on our tension

52:15

and that was not good. And so it

52:17

was both a motivator for me like, oh,

52:19

I don't want to ruin our kid. And

52:21

it was also a motivator for him like,

52:23

like, like, like, You know, she's starting to

52:25

be upset and she's starting to be watchful.

52:27

I mean, I really, I sold it to

52:29

him two ways. One is, it's a trial.

52:31

This isn't working, let's try it is. It

52:33

may fail. I mean, that's the thing about

52:36

the book is that I wanted to be

52:38

honest and when I got that book deal,

52:40

I said, we might not make it and

52:42

you have to be prepared for that. Like

52:44

I want to be. honest and I want

52:46

to report in a real way and they

52:48

said no no no however it ends I

52:50

mean statistically a lot of them do these

52:52

marriages do end so of course when you

52:54

got the book deal, you

52:57

were like, my marriage

52:59

may not like I

53:01

might write this book

53:03

about how to not

53:05

hate my husband, but

53:07

we may not make

53:09

it. I absolutely did,

53:11

because I was in

53:13

the thick of it

53:15

then. And so I

53:18

was like, doing the

53:20

reporting and experiencing it

53:22

kind of in real

53:24

time as I was

53:26

writing it. And so,

53:28

yes, so that was

53:30

that was the two

53:32

ways were it? How

53:34

about a new way?

53:36

Give me a month?

53:39

What's a month? You

53:41

know, that's a great

53:43

way to present it.

53:45

It really is like,

53:47

what we're doing is

53:49

not working. I've done

53:51

all this research. Can

53:53

we try this for

53:55

a month? Right. And

53:57

then saying like, do

53:59

you notice that Sylvie,

54:02

our daughter, her personality

54:04

is changing a little

54:06

bit. She's getting a

54:08

little more subdued. And

54:10

that's classic behavior, you

54:12

know, in a volatile

54:14

household. It wasn't volatile

54:16

all the time, but

54:18

she was getting a

54:20

little watchful. And she

54:23

wasn't white as exuberant

54:25

as she once was.

54:27

This may have been

54:29

just develop developmentally, she

54:31

was she was growing

54:33

up. But at the

54:35

time, that's how I

54:37

read it. And so

54:39

again, because he loved

54:41

her so much, and

54:44

their relationship was pure,

54:46

unlike ours, you know,

54:48

that also was a

54:50

motivator for for him

54:52

for sure. Yeah, yeah.

54:54

And the other thing

54:56

that I noticed, which

54:58

is so true that

55:00

you said in the

55:02

book is that dads

55:05

always get the fun

55:07

jobs, right? Like, you're

55:09

the one doing all

55:11

the shit. And they're

55:13

like, I will take

55:15

the children to the

55:17

park on Saturday morning.

55:19

So you can ever

55:21

break. And you're like,

55:23

yeah, but that and

55:26

then they come home

55:28

and are like, Daddy's

55:30

the best. Totally.

55:32

And, you know, oh, I

55:34

made pancakes. I left the kitchen

55:36

a mess. But you know,

55:38

I'm the fun guy. And yeah,

55:40

no one's gonna pat you

55:42

on the head for doing all

55:45

the, all the, you know,

55:47

more quotidian things. And so are

55:49

like running around in the

55:51

morning. But so, okay, I love

55:53

the FBI strategy that I

55:55

can totally see how that works.

55:57

You also talked about the

55:59

Gottmans a lot. And I have

56:02

to say that one of

56:04

the best things that Mike and

56:06

I ever did in our marriage is we actually

56:08

somehow read the seven principles of making marriage work like within

56:10

our first year. So five years before we have kids and

56:12

we've been married 22 years now and we

56:14

still refer to the four

56:16

horsemen like when someone's being

56:18

like it's almost a joke to

56:21

break the tension like someone's being doing

56:23

one of them and like one of

56:25

us are like hey hey hey like

56:27

we make a horse out. And

56:29

one of the four horsemen

56:31

that can, you know, and

56:34

your relationship is contempt and

56:36

that goes back to yelling,

56:38

swearing, name calling, sarcasm, you

56:40

know, that whole playbook, which

56:42

does feel good in the

56:44

moment, that makes you feel bad

56:46

later. It's funny, my daughter recently,

56:49

she tried out for, she's in

56:51

marching band and she tried out

56:53

for to play piano and another

56:55

band and she. she got an

56:57

attack of nerves and she wanted

57:00

to leave and there was a coach

57:02

there and the coach said to her you

57:04

know if you run out now you're

57:06

going to feel great in the

57:08

moment and you're going to feel

57:10

really bad later for a longer

57:12

period of time if you stay you

57:14

may feel bad now if you don't make

57:16

band but you'll feel good later

57:19

for a long period of time. And

57:21

I wish I had heard that advice

57:23

a long time ago because it does

57:25

feel good to let loose in the

57:27

moment because it is so it's such

57:30

a powder cake right but then you

57:32

just feel crappy afterwards guilt. Yeah I

57:34

think one of the things I got

57:36

from the book was you are not

57:38

going crazy that this is unfair

57:41

meaning the amount of work you're

57:43

doing and the type of work

57:45

you're doing like the shit work

57:47

is is not what it was before

57:49

you have kids and is not

57:52

equal. Because I think we all

57:54

experienced that. And acknowledging that, there

57:56

are strategies that you need to

57:58

employ that probably. aren't bitching or

58:00

drinking or contempt that will help actually

58:03

change the situation versus you being righteously

58:05

indignant that he's not pulling his weight

58:07

and being a jerk. Which does feel

58:09

good. It kind of feels good. It

58:11

really does. But again, it doesn't change

58:13

what's happening, right? Or it doesn't, clearly

58:15

that doesn't work. If otherwise all men

58:17

would be super helpful when your kids

58:19

are young. And it does, it does,

58:22

you're so right that it makes you

58:24

feel a little bit better like, okay,

58:26

so this is happening to other people,

58:28

this is the, you know, things have

58:30

improved certainly since like our parents day

58:32

but it's still not where it should

58:34

be in terms of, you know, the,

58:36

an equal distribution of household labor and,

58:38

and, you know, it's funny because I,

58:41

I talked to, to a lot of

58:43

experts in the book that I didn't

58:45

use, you know, you just sort of.

58:47

sift through the ones that make sense.

58:49

And I had a couple tell me,

58:51

oh, you know, you should demand 50-50

58:53

in terms of household labor and kid

58:55

labor and all that stuff. And to

58:57

me, that seemed unrealistic. Like, it should

59:00

just be what feels equitable to you.

59:02

And that's different for every person, right?

59:04

Like maybe a different statistic feels equitable

59:06

to you, but it should just feel

59:08

fair. whatever that means to you. Yeah.

59:10

Yeah, and I think it's interesting because

59:12

a lot of people, and I've seen

59:14

this too, like my husband is just

59:16

more comfortable with the kids when they're

59:19

older, right? Once my son started playing

59:21

baseball and basketball and he was happy

59:23

to go do a bunch of that

59:25

stuff. But the problem was that I

59:27

was not comfortable with the kids when

59:29

they were young either. Like I was

59:31

not the finger painting mom. So the

59:33

assumption that he'll handle it. when they're

59:36

older and I'm better suited. Like I

59:38

wasn't better suited to that time. I

59:40

was just. kind of sucking it up

59:42

because I don't know I felt like

59:44

a bad mom if I didn't do

59:46

it. I mean that's that's a whole

59:48

other that could be a whole other

59:50

book actually you're giving me an idea

59:52

about how some people are suited temperamentally

59:55

for different stages my mother said that

59:57

too she said she was bored out

59:59

of her mind there was three of

1:00:01

us when we were little and and

1:00:03

and she feels like a much more

1:00:05

She feels much more comfortable in a

1:00:07

role now that we're adults and we're

1:00:09

closer to her now for sure and

1:00:11

like there are those distinct ages when

1:00:14

they're little right they really are so

1:00:16

very different and some you're more suited

1:00:18

for and some you aren't and and

1:00:20

yeah that would be an interesting book

1:00:22

I was thrilled to send my kids

1:00:24

to daycare I like I think I

1:00:26

and I've said this out loud and

1:00:28

wasn't even joking like I. Did not

1:00:30

stay home with my kids. I went

1:00:33

back to work when they were like

1:00:35

three months old Because I wanted a

1:00:37

break from the kids because I found

1:00:39

that really hard working was hard too

1:00:41

But having to have like an hour

1:00:43

and a half in the morning and

1:00:45

three hours in the evening was way

1:00:47

easier for me than doing 12 14

1:00:49

hours of child care at least at

1:00:52

work I got to have a coffee

1:00:54

sit at a desk talk to someone

1:00:56

Oh sure And I love how judgment

1:00:58

free you are about all this stuff

1:01:00

and how we can talk about it

1:01:02

in a real way, you know, and

1:01:04

it's just really nice. And yeah, and,

1:01:06

I mean, another thing that I should

1:01:08

point out that I was doing is,

1:01:11

and this goes back to communicating, is

1:01:13

that I would do this thing that,

1:01:15

you know, Britney Brown and other counselors

1:01:17

talk about it a lot, but the

1:01:19

story that you are making up. And

1:01:21

when I was fuming. and not talking

1:01:23

about it to him, you know, to

1:01:25

some of my friends, but not to

1:01:28

him. I was making up this full,

1:01:30

I was making up stories in my

1:01:32

head. all the time about him and

1:01:34

going back to going back to what

1:01:36

you were saying about like being being

1:01:38

on their phone like I would look

1:01:40

at Tom staring at his phone while

1:01:42

I was doing a thousand things and

1:01:44

I would I would truly put a

1:01:47

like a thought bubble above his head

1:01:49

saying like ha ha I'm pulling something

1:01:51

over on my wife she's doing all

1:01:53

the work and I'm relaxing feels good

1:01:55

you know that's not what he was

1:01:57

thinking and and that only made things

1:01:59

worse for me so I constantly had

1:02:01

to catch myself and say like is

1:02:03

this the story that I'm making up

1:02:06

because sometimes I would I would cast

1:02:08

him as in this kind of nefarious

1:02:10

light and he really wasn't like that

1:02:12

clueless yes 100% but not like you

1:02:14

know gloating that he's relaxing while I'm

1:02:16

working. slowless and not wanting to do

1:02:18

the work right but not not too

1:02:20

bothered by asking if anything needs done

1:02:22

for sure yeah one of the things

1:02:25

that was one of the most interesting

1:02:27

comments that a friend ever made to

1:02:29

me was we used to joke amongst

1:02:31

our friends about my husband like that

1:02:33

he had a really good life he

1:02:35

was sixth grade teacher he coached sports

1:02:37

he had all summer off to go

1:02:39

to baseball games and go fishing and

1:02:41

I was working and we were always

1:02:44

like must be nice to be like

1:02:46

d but then and I would resent

1:02:48

it right he had three annual fishing

1:02:50

trips when we had kids still does

1:02:52

but when they were little and I

1:02:54

was like what the hell the only

1:02:56

vacation I get is like when the

1:02:58

kids are sick or we go on

1:03:00

a family trip and finally I was

1:03:03

pitching for the 11th million time to

1:03:05

one of my friends and she was

1:03:07

like is it that you don't want

1:03:09

him to be happy or is it

1:03:11

that you aren't happy and I Holy

1:03:13

shit, I am really unhappy. You know,

1:03:15

like, that's a great question about everything.

1:03:17

And so I booked an annual vacation

1:03:20

with my best friend and I was

1:03:22

like, you know what, I'm going to.

1:03:24

Santa Barbara. I was like, okay. I

1:03:26

was like, okay. Love that you did

1:03:28

that. I didn't do that for years.

1:03:30

And it must have been the most

1:03:32

delicious time off for you. Was. And

1:03:34

he appreciated me so much more after

1:03:36

it. Because he was like, oh my

1:03:39

God, when I go on those 10

1:03:41

day fishing trips, that's really fucking hard.

1:03:43

Because you were gone for five days.

1:03:45

And I was like, yes. Are you

1:03:47

assual. No, just kidding. So anything else

1:03:49

that you think like people who are

1:03:51

deep in that like resentment, young kids,

1:03:53

overwhelm, all of that like all of

1:03:55

those emotions daily, if they were to

1:03:58

take the first step, what do you

1:04:00

think it should be? To have a

1:04:02

frank conversation where you're not yelling, you

1:04:04

can even write things down ahead of

1:04:06

time to make your points. when the

1:04:08

kid is asleep or when you're away

1:04:10

from the kid or kids and you

1:04:12

know establish some ground rules right away

1:04:14

that you'll wait for the person to

1:04:17

be done speaking and then you speak

1:04:19

and you take turns and you don't

1:04:21

yell one counselor told me that when

1:04:23

you're having a frank conversation it helps

1:04:25

to hold hands and maybe that's the

1:04:27

last thing you want to do because

1:04:29

you're mad but feeling their hand you

1:04:31

know like reminding Reminding yourself that they're,

1:04:33

they're someone that you love. It's their

1:04:36

handed, you know, it's their warm handed,

1:04:38

they're not the boogie man. There's someone

1:04:40

that you cared about or you once

1:04:42

cared about, maybe care a little bit

1:04:44

about less now. That really helps. So

1:04:46

it's about having a really honest conversation

1:04:48

and and also, I mean, okay, that

1:04:50

would be number one. Number two, divving

1:04:52

up your chores, it's never too late.

1:04:55

It, again, boring, but necessary. And then

1:04:57

number three, an exercise that I found

1:04:59

really... helpful that kind

1:05:01

of makes you

1:05:03

find your way back

1:05:05

to this person

1:05:07

that you care about

1:05:09

is Guy Winch,

1:05:12

another great counselor that

1:05:14

writes amazing books

1:05:16

that I highly recommend.

1:05:18

He had us

1:05:20

when we went to

1:05:22

him, again I

1:05:24

told you I went

1:05:26

to several therapists

1:05:28

with Tom and he

1:05:31

had us do

1:05:33

this exercise that I

1:05:35

really changed things

1:05:37

for us. Like there's

1:05:39

a couple turning

1:05:41

points that I wrote

1:05:43

about in the

1:05:45

book that really made

1:05:47

a lot of

1:05:50

impact on me and

1:05:52

it was to

1:05:54

take a piece of

1:05:56

paper and write

1:05:58

down, without showing your

1:06:00

partner, 10 actions

1:06:02

that they have done

1:06:04

for you that

1:06:06

you appreciate. Not characteristics,

1:06:09

not oh you

1:06:11

know he's funnier, she's

1:06:13

you know good

1:06:15

at this or that.

1:06:17

It's about things,

1:06:19

specific actions that you've

1:06:21

done that they've

1:06:23

done for you because

1:06:25

as Dr. Winch

1:06:28

put it like you

1:06:30

can talk about

1:06:32

stuff theoretically all you

1:06:34

want but actions

1:06:36

are where they've shown

1:06:38

you how they

1:06:40

love you and it

1:06:42

can be small

1:06:44

things. It can be

1:06:47

that they always

1:06:49

keep the gas tank

1:06:51

filled for you

1:06:53

which is what my

1:06:55

husband does for

1:06:57

me. He also does

1:06:59

this thing, he

1:07:01

has this this kind

1:07:04

of air, what

1:07:06

do you call the

1:07:08

things where you're

1:07:10

like air pressure? It's

1:07:13

a thing that you blow your your

1:07:15

computer with to get the oh okay

1:07:17

yeah it's like a keyboard cleaner with

1:07:19

the air blower thing. So he'll come

1:07:21

over and he'll kind of be like

1:07:23

it's so little but like I don't

1:07:25

like having a dusty keyboard and so

1:07:27

I wrote down 10 of those things

1:07:29

and he wrote down 10 things too

1:07:31

and then we said and then he

1:07:33

said okay don't show each other and

1:07:35

we'll wait for the next session. So

1:07:37

at the next session we got there

1:07:39

early you know like did our homework

1:07:41

we're already and he said okay now

1:07:44

turn to each other and read your

1:07:46

list to each other and we thought

1:07:48

we were going to read it to

1:07:50

Dr. Wynch and it was so funny

1:07:52

because I instantly felt shy. So I

1:07:54

turned to him and I read the

1:07:56

list and one of the things on

1:07:58

the list was You

1:08:00

painted my parents' house last

1:08:02

summer. The exterior of the

1:08:04

house, even though there was

1:08:06

a wasps nest. And I thought,

1:08:09

wow, that blew by me at the

1:08:11

time? Like, ah. Not his parents,

1:08:13

my parents. He would drive. We

1:08:15

were in Brooklyn at the time.

1:08:17

He would drive to New Jersey

1:08:20

where they live. Paint the exterior

1:08:22

on a ladder. No one

1:08:24

loves heights. There was a

1:08:26

wasps nest. And he did it

1:08:28

without complaining this is one reason

1:08:30

why they love him but like that's I'm

1:08:33

not quite sure how that blew by me

1:08:35

in kind of the rush of life but

1:08:37

like what a nice thing to do and then

1:08:39

I remember at the end of it I

1:08:41

was crying and then he read the list

1:08:43

to me and the last question I mean

1:08:46

the last thing he said was oh

1:08:48

my god I'm getting choked up now

1:08:50

years years ago he said you're my

1:08:52

best friend and I said I am

1:08:54

he he's never said that to me

1:08:57

before but he said it to me

1:08:59

in the list and I thought oh

1:09:01

my god really like just that

1:09:03

there was something about the

1:09:06

actions rather than

1:09:08

characteristics because it

1:09:10

that otherwise it feels

1:09:12

like like like obviously

1:09:14

you're sweet and loving

1:09:16

dad something about the the

1:09:18

specific actions and about reading them

1:09:21

to each other But that was

1:09:23

a breakthrough for us. It seems

1:09:25

so simple and it seems like

1:09:27

I'm making it like, oh, this

1:09:29

miracle thing that happened. But it

1:09:32

really did make things better for

1:09:34

us. It was a good reminder. Yeah. And

1:09:36

I love how at the end of

1:09:38

the book, you sort of summarize because

1:09:40

the book actually is a great read

1:09:42

and a quick read because there's so

1:09:44

many stories in there. Yeah, it's important

1:09:46

like who is time, right? There's so

1:09:48

many stories that. Yeah. That made me

1:09:51

be like, oh my God, yes. And

1:09:53

of course, every time you said something,

1:09:55

I was like, and then when Hank

1:09:57

was one year old, he did this,

1:09:59

like, whatever. But interspersed are all the

1:10:01

really good strategies. I remember you writing about

1:10:03

that list. I remember that story about him

1:10:05

painting your parents' house. And at the end,

1:10:08

you summarize exactly what the strategies are so

1:10:10

that you can kind of go back and

1:10:12

be like, okay, yes, here's one more thing

1:10:14

that I can do or I can try.

1:10:17

And I love the idea of proposing it

1:10:19

as an experiment to switch things up and

1:10:21

to try to make things better because yeah

1:10:23

it's really it's really obvious when things are

1:10:25

not good and not working when Hank was

1:10:28

five one of the reasons I stopped drinking

1:10:30

for the first time was because I was

1:10:32

like I was also being like this is

1:10:34

not going to work like I don't know

1:10:37

if this is going to work and I

1:10:39

was like I need to separate alcohol from

1:10:41

this to figure out if we're going to

1:10:43

be good together, you know, to get that

1:10:45

clarity, because it was fueling fights and anger

1:10:48

and resentment and it was so complicated. And

1:10:50

so I ended up stopping and going to

1:10:52

a therapist for like anxiety and addiction and

1:10:54

it really you know I went in there

1:10:57

and I was like oh my god my

1:10:59

boss my husband doesn't help me my kid

1:11:01

this that etc and I was like and

1:11:03

by the way I drink a bottle of

1:11:05

wine tonight and the guy was like let's

1:11:08

talk about your drinking it was like let's

1:11:10

talk about my husband but it did help

1:11:12

to like separate that and to have someone

1:11:14

external to vent to and to be heard

1:11:17

but also to be given strategies. Good for

1:11:19

you I'm sure that was not an easy

1:11:21

time and you We know how hard that

1:11:23

can be, right? And even giving up alcohol,

1:11:26

that is a process. Yes, it is. Yes,

1:11:28

it is. Well, thank you so much for

1:11:30

coming on. I really appreciate it. I know

1:11:32

how busy you are and I appreciate you

1:11:34

taking time out of your weekend. And I

1:11:37

love this book. I already posted about it.

1:11:39

in my my group that

1:11:41

I was to interview

1:11:43

you my God, the God, the

1:11:46

comments of everyone talking,

1:11:48

happened, that happened, happened, it

1:11:50

is good to get

1:11:52

it out. But I'm

1:11:54

gonna post again after

1:11:57

this interview to just

1:11:59

be like, like, some really

1:12:01

great strategies here that

1:12:03

you guys should try.

1:12:06

here that you was my

1:12:08

pleasure to come on

1:12:10

and you are so

1:12:12

easy to talk to are

1:12:14

so thank you for

1:12:17

having me. thank you thank

1:12:19

you. Oh, thank you. Thank you

1:12:21

for listening to this

1:12:23

episode of Hello Somday podcast. If

1:12:26

you're interested in learning

1:12:28

more about me, more the

1:12:30

work I do, I do,

1:12:32

and