0:07

Welcome to Inclusion Bites, your sanctuary

0:11

for bold conversations that spark change. I'm Joanne Lockwood,

0:15

your guide on this journey of exploration into the heart of

0:18

inclusion, belonging, and societal transformation.

0:23

Ever wondered what it truly takes to create a world where

0:26

everyone not only belongs but thrives? You're

0:30

not alone. Join me as we uncover the

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unseen, challenge the status quo, and share

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stories that resonate deep within. Ready to dive

0:41

in. Whether you're sipping your morning coffee or winding down

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after a long day, let's connect, reflect, and

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inspire action together. Don't forget, you

0:52

can be part of the conversation too. Reach out to

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jo.lockwood@seechangehappen.co.uk to share your insights or to join me on the show.

1:03

So adjust your earbuds and settle in. It's time to

1:07

ignite the spark of inclusion with Inclusion

1:13

Bites. Today is episode 141

1:18

with the title, no expected outcome.

1:23

And I have the absolute honor and privilege to welcome Steff

1:27

VanHaverbeker. And that's not easy to say a flourished name

1:30

as an English person. Steff is the cofounder of

1:34

the House of Coaching. She empowers professionals with

1:38

cognitive agility and inclusion driven strategies

1:42

to thrive in a rapidly changing world. And when I asked

1:46

Steff to describe her superbash, she said that it is her empathy

1:50

and self confidence enabling her to deeply

1:53

understand unique challenges and empower individuals

1:57

to uncover their strengths. Hello, Steff. Welcome

2:01

to the show. Hey, Jo. It's great to be here.

2:05

Absolutely fabulous. And how did I do on your name? Did I did I get

2:08

it close? It sounded perfect. Thank

2:12

you. And I know it's hard. It is.

2:16

It's, the Dutch language is a law unto itself,

2:20

isn't it? With lots of, guttural Yeah. Sort of throat noises, isn't it?

2:24

It's a It comes from deep within. Deep

2:28

within. Yeah. I've had many Dutch friends, and I've been to that part

2:31

of the world many times. And, yeah, we sit in bars and laugh

2:35

about pronunciations and things. And Yeah. I

2:39

know. So you you Steff. You were doing great. Yes. Thank you. Thank

2:43

you. So Steff, tell me more. No expected

2:46

outcomes. What's all the heard about? Yeah. Well, it's,

2:50

it's something that I I realized a few months ago.

2:54

Beginning of this year, we're we're now December of

2:58

2024. And, and past year, so in

3:01

2023, post COVID, my main business, my main

3:05

activity suffered from the COVID pandemic and went

3:09

bankrupt. So that meant that

3:12

I had to reinvent myself, reinvent

3:16

my business. In Dutch we have this beautiful word it's called

3:20

Dorstaat. So it's starting true. That's not starting here,

3:24

but you're making a true push something through through

3:27

through the troubles, through and at the same time, I was

3:31

going through my gender transition as well. So this

3:35

meant there was a whole lot of stuff going on at the

3:39

same time. And and,

3:43

and at one Friday morning, beginning this year, I had this

3:47

long, long, long, long list of things that I needed to do. And

3:50

I sat in front of my computer, like I'm sitting here now,

3:55

and watching its screen and just a whole

3:58

list of emails and all you know you know,

4:02

that feeling. Too much to, you know

4:06

and and you you want to get through it. And then my eye felt

4:09

on this, synthesizer that I got for my

4:13

birthday. And I was still wrapped. It's, it was

4:17

one of my old passions to make music. And I said,

4:21

come on. What? Hell, let's let's unwrap this thing.

4:24

And I hooked it up, and I played music the whole day.

4:29

And what I noticed is that by doing this,

4:33

by shifting my focus away from, you know,

4:36

the result oriented tasks that I needed to do,

4:40

I felt energized. I felt inspired.

4:44

I got back into flow. And I was able to do

4:48

that list of tasks, in just

4:51

maybe an hour or so afterwards. Just because

4:55

I I, yeah, resourced. I refined my

4:58

energy by having by

5:02

making a small decision, actually. And that's that's that's what

5:06

this neo or no expected outcome. That's what this

5:10

that's what this is about. So that's quite a challenging journey

5:13

you've had there. So a complete reboot.

5:17

Yeah. But so he had no expected outcome from

5:21

that, but you knew you knew what

5:25

wasn't working. You just weren't sure

5:29

what would work. Is it is that kind of fair? Yeah. Yeah.

5:33

No. It's it is it is. No. I reflected

5:37

a lot afterwards. After that particular Friday, I went

5:41

Friday evening, I went walking with my

5:45

dog in the park here and, just

5:48

right in front of my house. And, as I was

5:51

walking, I reflected on what what happened. And it doesn't seem like

5:55

a lot happened, but it was for me, it was very profound

5:59

because I was, you know, I'm a person who was always, you know,

6:03

out there putting the foot on the pedal and put

6:06

the foot on the pedal and plow through. And

6:10

just by making a small decision to take a step

6:13

back, to do something that I'm passionate about,

6:18

being creative a whole day and

6:22

having no expectation about this, not having not having this

6:26

sense of guilt. I need to do this or or this will get me in

6:29

trouble. So this there was no no guilt involved.

6:33

So it freed me. It set me free, actually. And

6:37

then as I was walking my dog, this this this word came to

6:40

me, no expected outcome. I had

6:44

no outcome that I was expecting from that day. I let it

6:47

go, and that meant that I was able to

6:52

reenergize myself. And yeah. And that's that's

6:55

something that I that I discussed with a lot of people since

6:59

and I found that But presumably. Yeah. Presumably. But when you when you were going

7:03

up to this period, you must have had a a lot of

7:07

apprehension, fear Mhmm. Nervousness, all these kind of

7:10

words of limiting beliefs, things holding you back.

7:14

Yeah. Was there a a particularly defining moment that

7:18

you remember that was the key to the lock that allowed

7:21

you to move forward? It was a conversation with a friend. And,

7:25

I was talking about this my experience. And we were sitting in this,

7:29

coffee shop drinking a cup of coffee and and having a sandwich. And,

7:33

and then I was discussing you know, just talking about my experience.

7:37

And then he said, you know, this is this is so recognizable because, you

7:41

know, I'm also somebody who, he said, who who's really, you

7:45

know, focused on, you know, results, results,

7:49

results. I have to do this. I have to do that. I need to do

7:52

this, and it needs to be perfect, and this and that.

7:56

And, and as he as he was

7:59

describing this, he burst into tears. He said, this is, this

8:03

is, you know, he said, this your story is also my story

8:07

because I have the same experience, but I'm not

8:10

not able myself to do this, to do what you did.

8:14

And it's such a simple thing. It's making a decision. But

8:18

they said, I know from myself I won't be able to do this because I

8:21

have this sense of, you know, if I would do this, first of

8:24

all, I don't know if it would work for me. And second of all, yeah,

8:28

would I be able to allow myself to do to make such a decision? And

8:31

I had thought, you know, WTF, what is going on here? How

8:35

how are we programmed that we have to

8:39

perform every day? We we are robots and we have

8:42

to be economically, you know, a piece of the

8:46

machinery. I mean, that we don't allow ourselves this

8:50

this small freedom to to be creative when we want.

8:53

Would you looking back on it, would you say

8:57

that COVID created the the the

9:01

challenge with your business, which created the bankruptcy, which

9:04

then empowered you to gender transition, or do you

9:08

think it was kind of a bit of everything? It was a bit of everything.

9:11

It's not I did not transition because of COVID. No. That that

9:15

that that has been part of me for a way longer time. But it is

9:19

it is it gave me the that that was

9:23

something maybe that was an element, that it gave me the time to reflect

9:27

on things. That's true. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

9:31

I I I reflect on some of my my own history and my own experience.

9:36

The once, momentum is in in progress, you know,

9:40

you've got some movement on change. I'd almost felt that the need to just

9:44

change everything rather than change a bit because you think you come back to it

9:48

and you just pick at the edges. You got to cut deep and cut really

9:51

efficiently into your life and say, hang on a minute. This isn't working in all

9:55

these different aspects. And if you're going to change something, you must have just

9:58

give it a go. Yeah. There's something there, of course.

10:03

This this kind of this this is a kind of change that is

10:06

profound because it's about your identity, and your identity

10:10

determines so much. You know, it's and

10:14

it's it's a very, very, very small things. It's not only the big things.

10:17

It's not only about how you present yourself or how you you

10:21

know, what what are you going to wear today. It's it's it's part of it,

10:25

but it is it is not that. It is it goes so much

10:28

deeper. And and, of course, COVID COVID played. It gave me the

10:32

opportunity, to do this

10:36

in kind of my own, my own tempo. You

10:39

know? My own pace. That's that's true. So in

10:43

that sense, yeah. So we'll talk a bit more

10:47

about your coaching and what you're doing now. But can I just ask you a

10:50

couple of kind of questions around you're living in

10:54

Belgium, you mentioned to me before we kicked off?

10:59

What's the, let's say, the climate for

11:03

you as a a transgender woman? You know, we see what's going on in the

11:07

US. We see what's going on in you probably see what's going on in the

11:09

UK. I have very little knowledge around what it's like to

11:13

be a transgender person in mainland

11:17

Europe. How does it feel to you? Well, I feel very

11:21

lucky because in Belgium, we have one of the most progressive

11:24

legislation around gender and gender equality and

11:28

gender. You know, that you can simply, as a Belgian

11:31

citizen, you can simply go to the how does it call it? The city hall,

11:35

to the administration, and just state, this is now my gender. And

11:39

that's it. And they have to change everything legally just because you are

11:43

making that statement. So it's very easy.

11:47

There's Belgium, they decided that there shouldn't be any

11:50

hurdles because that would be discriminatory

11:54

how to say that? Discriminatory. Yeah. That's a

11:58

difficult word for me as a Flemish.

12:01

Yeah. So, and in that sense, we are very lucky.

12:05

And in terms of society,

12:09

when I made public that I was transitioning, I got

12:12

nothing else than encouragement and people

12:16

who appreciated what I was doing and found it very courageous

12:20

and things like that. So that's, that's even in my, it starts in my own

12:23

family, of course. My wife, my daughter.

12:28

Okay. My wife is a little bit different story, of course, because

12:32

we were not married as a woman with a woman. We were married

12:36

as a man with a woman. So and that's some still something,

12:39

of course, we we have to work on every day,

12:43

you know, because it's it's rocks the core very

12:47

core of your foundation of your relationship. But

12:51

in a broader sense, you know, within my family, with my

12:54

coworkers, my, you know, my clients. Yeah.

12:58

It was very, they welcomed it almost.

13:02

And yeah, that's, that's I don't say that this is the experience

13:06

for everyone in Belgium, but I built my life

13:10

already in such a way that I surrounded

13:14

myself with people and also what

13:17

I do as a profession in a way that people would just, you know,

13:22

that there wouldn't be any resistance to the to the to that

13:25

change, to my transition. What was the biggest thing that surprised

13:29

you around your transition? Yeah, that's a good question. Well,

13:33

the person who had the most trouble with all this in my life

13:37

is me. Yeah. It took a long

13:41

time before I made before I decided,

13:45

you know, I have to do something about this. That took a long

13:49

time. Of course, you know, I'm 55 years old

13:53

now. Meaning 50 you know, about 50 years

13:56

ago, there wasn't much about gender.

14:00

You know, that wasn't something people thought about.

14:04

You know, it's just you're born in a certain way. You are,

14:08

therefore, a girl or a boy. You know?

14:12

And there was no awareness around it or on that topic.

14:17

At least not in my family. Yeah.

14:20

So, I could I can imagine when I if I would have been born

14:24

now, things my wife would be a whole lot different. But in

14:28

your coaching, you do

14:32

now with working with individuals and organizations,

14:37

what insights do you think that your your gender

14:40

transition has had in your, your

14:44

insights you help people with? It allows me

14:48

to be more empathic. As I said, you know, the first person I had to

14:52

deal with with how my whole transition was myself. I was the first

14:55

person who needed to accept this, that this was a reality. And so

14:59

now I'm I'm very more aware when

15:02

people come with whatever issues that they have.

15:06

I'm I'm much more able to put myself in the other

15:09

shoes. And, I have a

15:13

real sense of, you know, what what is going on. And, of course,

15:18

I'm not only able to be more empathic, but also

15:22

more authentic. And I can can truly speak from my heart

15:25

now. Whereas before the I I always had this

15:29

kind of a shield, you know, you project you project a

15:32

persona to the outside, which is inauthentic, and it it's it

15:36

felt also always felt wrong. So I'm

15:40

it may be expected outcome strategy or mantra, if you

15:43

like. We, as humans, we kind of we have

15:47

our biases, we have our preconceived ideas, and we bring all this baggage

15:51

with us, don't we, with these outcomes? How do you work with

15:55

people to get into, if you like, let go of the baggage

15:59

and and start to see possibilities. Yeah. There's there's difference

16:02

between baggage and luggage. So I like to have some luggage with me,

16:06

but not the baggage. And this is how I also you know,

16:10

this is my frame when when people come with me with with whatever

16:14

baggage they have and it's it's like, what is in there

16:18

that could be transformed into something

16:21

else that would be useful for you? But what I found

16:25

is that the greatest hurdles that people deal with in

16:28

those experiences lies

16:33

the the root of the solution. Like like we just

16:36

said, because of COVID, I had all these troubles. But also because of

16:40

COVID, it created this opportunity for me to

16:44

to look at the world in a different way and to experience something

16:48

that maybe otherwise I would have never experienced. So

16:52

there's always, you know, there's there's this coin that has two sides. So

16:55

what I what I do is when I have a coaching

16:59

client, and not only asking questions,

17:03

you know, what are your goals and what are your resources and blah blah

17:06

blah, but it's like a journey. I look at

17:10

it as a journey and an exploration where people

17:14

can discover parts within them that

17:17

maybe they would have rejected somehow in the past,

17:22

but now are able to give it a

17:25

place and see it as a resource.

17:30

And maybe I I'll give an example. Someone just

17:34

said, you know, I'm, I'm having trouble relaxing.

17:39

I'm I'm always, in my mind, busy, busy, busy, busy.

17:43

And I find it very hard to create the mental

17:47

space that I need to feel at ease, to, yeah,

17:50

be myself, actually. And so what I what we

17:54

did, we we did a little exercise, and it's kind of

17:57

an it's kind of a

18:01

imaginary journey that you make in your own landscape.

18:05

It's called mindscaping. And during that

18:09

exercise, which is a guided meditation slash

18:13

hypnosis. It's a bit of both, and it's very

18:18

metaphorical. It's kind of a guided dream

18:21

almost. And

18:25

and then there was this girl that came to her

18:30

and, she says, she's perfection.

18:34

This girl is perfection. And she

18:37

offers me a flower. And the moment she got that

18:41

flower, she burst into tears and she said, okay, I see the beauty

18:45

of it, but I also see that the flower is cut.

18:49

So even though the flower is perfect, it is not

18:53

perfect. So this is whole duality there. And that

18:56

changed the way she looks at the world now.

19:00

And now she's able to see that

19:03

perfection. You know, it

19:06

is elusive. It is something that you can

19:10

appreciate and you can strive for. But at the

19:14

same time, you know, perfection is also something

19:18

you can let go. And it is yeah. They often

19:21

say that perfection is the enemy of progress, because we're so busy

19:25

trying to get everything completely right, completely

19:29

okay. And sometimes good enough is good enough, isn't it? It

19:32

is. It is. And, just

19:36

last weekend, I, facilitated a

19:40

conference for visual practitioners, which

19:44

are people who are helping organizations to, you

19:47

know, solve problems, be more creative, brainstorm,

19:51

teach, and all these kind of things. So I was facilitating

19:55

this and, people had to draw on big, big, big sheets of

19:58

paper, you know, what their intention was for the day,

20:02

for themselves, for each other, and so on.

20:06

And so as we were as a group with about 40

20:10

people, drawing on a big sheet of paper about

20:13

10 meters wide with all kinds of colors and making

20:17

drawings and putting on some slogans and whatever.

20:21

And and one of the one of the participants came up to me and she

20:24

said, you know, this is so amazing and so beautiful. It

20:27

it is something to, wow, to to really hold on

20:31

to. And she said, you know, what else? What is going to happen with this

20:34

piece of this big sheet of paper after the conference?

20:40

And I said, you know, I I look at it as a as a

20:43

mandala. It only exists here and now

20:47

in this moment. And it exists for you, and

20:51

it will still exist afterwards in your hearts because

20:54

you have experienced it. But after this, the paper will be

20:58

gone. You know, we will tear it up and put it in a

21:02

bin. And she said, that's, you know,

21:05

she had some struggles with that idea, but it is beautiful. It

21:09

is beautiful. Yeah. Because You said just now

21:13

that you've it's different between luggage and

21:16

baggage. I I thought that was a really good analogy there, where we

21:20

often fill up with carrying around baggage. So what we need to do

21:24

is we need to unpack all of our baggage

21:28

and extract the valuable parts, the luggage.

21:31

Yeah. And jettison those baggage elements.

21:35

So we're traveling lighter with stuff we need,

21:39

not bogged down with everything we don't need.

21:43

Indeed. Indeed. And just to reflect for the listener also, just

21:47

just ask yourself this question, what is holding me back? What,

21:50

what do I keep dragging behind me? Like

21:54

every day that I maybe don't need? Or maybe

21:58

there's something in there that is of real value. Just when I look at

22:02

it in a different way and it becomes lighter and it becomes something that is

22:05

useful for you. And it's not holding you back. Most of the change we

22:09

actually need within ourselves, isn't it? It's, you said earlier, what

22:13

was the biggest surprise? What was the biggest barrier? Yourself holding yourself back. And what

22:17

we find is we become our own limiting belief, our own perfectionist,

22:20

or we could become constrained by our own

22:24

beliefs, don't we? And that's what we need to unlock sometimes. Because if we

22:28

don't take a step forward, we'll always stand still. And it's a ton of work

22:32

out to find that bravery or that or realize that we're more

22:35

uncomfortable by being where we are than we would be by moving forward.

22:39

Indeed. For instance, for me, I've always felt that,

22:44

when I was, when I was before my transition, I had to

22:47

prove myself. I always had the sense, you know, I have

22:51

to prove myself that I am a

22:55

man. I found that very hard, by the way.

22:58

It took a lot of energy from me because it was it didn't

23:02

feel natural for obvious reasons.

23:06

And, and once I let go of

23:10

that, it transformed me. And I now I

23:14

feel free. I feel a lot lighter. I feel a lot more

23:18

comfortable. And I couldn't really be myself in

23:22

front of a whole group. Whereas before, I

23:25

always felt like I had to put on an act. And that is, you know,

23:29

that, that what that part of me was, was the baggage.

23:32

But, but it also had the roots. Because, because

23:36

it's brought me on this journey to really explore

23:40

and investigate and find out what was going

23:43

on and to learn a whole lot about how the brain works,

23:47

about psychology, even though I'm not a psychologist.

23:51

But, you know, and I pushed myself, you know,

23:55

learning and teaching about this, you know, in front of

23:58

groups of people as a trainer and as a coach. And this

24:02

really enabled me to to let go of a lot of things, but

24:06

also to transform and reintegrate some parts of,

24:10

you know, not only the science and the knowledge that we have

24:14

about, you know, what it means to be human and, you know,

24:18

and about gender and all these things. But it also helped me to

24:22

to integrate on a on a deep, deep, deep

24:26

level the experience that I

24:30

had. I wouldn't be the person that I am today without that

24:33

experience. It is the foundation of my confidence today. So I

24:37

mean, I think it's fair to say that many people

24:41

don't understand about being trans, gender,

24:44

non binary, or having a gender identity that is not

24:48

as aligned that you were given at birth. So you said

24:52

just now that you spent many, many years of your life trying to

24:56

prove to the world you were a man, and you found that exhausting,

25:00

tiring, and something that was making you feel uncomfortable.

25:04

Do you now find the challenge is having to explain what

25:07

being trans for transgender means and having to maybe

25:11

justify yourself as a woman to certain people? You definitely

25:15

don't have the sense that I have to justify anything. No, no,

25:18

no. That's that's not the case. I had to

25:22

justify before my transition. I don't have to justify

25:25

anything now. So no. No. The it's it's

25:29

it's it set me free. And now I I am

25:33

able to really let me tell you with a concrete example. A

25:36

few days ago with with with somebody, he was, you know,

25:40

a good friend of mine. We were walking in the city. We had to pick

25:43

up some things. He had to go to the printer to pick up some, you

25:46

know, yeah, some orders that he made. And when

25:50

he was in the print shop, the owner of the print shop came in and

25:53

said, hi Karl, how are you doing? And blah, blah, blah. And then, you know,

25:56

they're making jokes and, you know, going in this typical

26:01

male bonding things that I never

26:04

understood. You know, I cannot grasp what that is.

26:07

But now that I that I've transitioned and I am truly

26:11

who I am, I can connect with people in such a better

26:15

way. It goes way easier. It goes

26:19

directly. There are no walls anymore. So

26:23

there's no need to justify anything. Whereas,

26:26

yeah, that's See, you just

26:30

are. There's no there's no kind of

26:34

discussion here. In the same way, I'm just a woman. You're just a woman. We

26:38

just are. We don't feel the need to prove that. To make it

26:41

very blunt, if somebody would come up to me and challenge

26:45

me on this, I would challenge the other person also on

26:49

their identity. You know, it's the same

26:53

thing. You don't challenge anybody on their you

26:56

know, on parts of their identity. You cannot have any judgment

27:00

about that. You mentioned some you're not a psychologist,

27:04

but you did some working on understanding the brain

27:08

and the, its

27:12

perception of the world. Do you wanna give me a little bit more background of

27:15

of what you uncovered when you were going through that? Well, what I found

27:19

particularly interesting is, of course, you know, what are the

27:22

differences between male female brains? Is there any

27:26

science to really back this up? And, yeah,

27:30

what I found is basically there isn't really.

27:34

Meaning that the brain changes as we grow

27:38

older. Of course, there's

27:42

different processes, you know, the brain only becomes adult

27:46

when we are about 25 and the brain doesn't

27:49

deteriorate, like, in a sense that

27:54

an older person could have a brain as

27:58

healthy as 25 year old.

28:02

If you do particular activities that keep your brain healthy.

28:06

But in a natural flow of things, of course, the brain

28:09

changes over time. Things become harder to

28:13

remember and all these things. So the difference between

28:17

a brain of a 4 year old and a 94

28:21

year old are far greater than, of course, the

28:25

brain between a man and a woman. And, you know,

28:29

and even saying that, of course, there are some differences that will be about

28:32

the size and about, you know, the but you

28:36

cannot generalize. I was during the conference, I'm from

28:39

Belgium and there were people there from Norway,

28:43

Sweden and Holland. I don't know if you ever

28:46

looked at those people, but they are my neck still

28:50

hurts because I had to look up the whole time. But they are

28:54

even the women are, you know, they are they have a lot more stature than

28:57

I have. So it's not about size. It's not about,

29:01

you know, particular parts of the brain. It is more how

29:05

we use our brain that makes the difference.

29:08

Yeah. And so there's there's

29:12

also some culture involved, nature and nurture.

29:15

But what I found was that the way I used,

29:19

I've used my brain my whole life is typical for

29:23

a woman. The things that I was interested in, the things that I

29:27

that caught my attention, the things that I you know, even though I

29:31

do like Star Wars. But I've also found that a lot of women like

29:34

Star Wars. So I'm not the exception here. So we have all

29:38

these preconceptions about, you know, male female,

29:42

about male female bodies, how they should look, how they should

29:46

be, about our brains, how they should work, how they shouldn't work, and so

29:50

on and so on. But basically, the

29:53

template is human and gender is a spectrum. You can

29:57

believe it or not, but it's science. And,

30:02

yeah, just, you know, where are you on the

30:05

gender spectrum? And for me, I found that being in the male

30:09

part of the gender spectrum didn't work for me. Yeah.

30:13

Yeah. The whole concept of gender

30:17

and roles and what you should like, what you shouldn't like is it's all a

30:20

social construct. We've we've made this stuff up. We made it up.

30:24

We've decided we've decided we we give

30:28

labels to things like that's a that's a man's thing, that's a woman's thing, that's

30:31

a men should like this, women should like that. That's a man's toilet, that's a

30:35

woman's toilet. We invented this stuff in the

30:38

20th 21st century. Most of the stuff before that was role based, based on

30:42

what you were trying to do. And society has kind of enforced these rules

30:46

without any, well, as a blanket approach, without any real

30:50

understanding about what, how people see themselves in the

30:53

world? Yeah, that's true. Actually, a lot

30:57

of the constructs that

31:01

we hold as self evident are

31:05

very recent. Victorian age was

31:09

an age where a lot of the social norms that

31:13

we adhere to today, you know, they

31:18

not originated, but they became like the norm.

31:22

And, you know, that's that's also something, you know, being a

31:26

transgender woman and having walked that journey,

31:29

I'm much actually, I consider myself in a

31:33

privileged place because I can see

31:38

certain frames that are just non

31:41

existent, that a lot of people believe about the

31:45

world that are simply not true. So, yeah,

31:49

I like to think outside the box. Yeah. No, I

31:53

agree. And I think, again, going back to your experience of doing

31:56

a diversion halfway through your

32:00

life or 3 quarters away through your life, wherever you want to look at it,

32:02

that you are able to put down the baggage, as you say, and and and

32:06

pick the path that works best for you. Going forward, what

32:10

do you believe is is kind of the future for you and

32:14

the world and the people you help? I

32:17

think we'll we'll we'll come into a time of

32:23

of particular challenges. We have the rise of AI.

32:27

I mean, if you're just, you know, seeing the first the first,

32:31

first emergence of that, even though AI is is much older than what

32:35

than many people realize. But it will change the way we

32:39

work profoundly. And it will put into

32:42

question what makes us human and what makes

32:46

us intelligent. You know, there will be a whole lot of

32:49

philosophical ideas floating around about that

32:53

one. But also for many people, they will also have

32:56

to transition, in

33:00

a certain way and and society as

33:04

well. So we we we face particular challenges. It's

33:08

not I who's saying that. It's everybody who's who's working in

33:11

that area sees that. And I think that

33:15

my contribution being here on this planet today is

33:19

to share some of my experiences and to also to teach people some

33:22

of the principles and techniques, how to

33:26

really leverage human intelligence and remind

33:30

that, you know, we are not robots. We are

33:33

different from the AI and the bots. And

33:37

if you have a tedious task to do today, go to

33:41

chatgptorclod and make use of AI and use it in

33:45

a smart way. But also when you are

33:49

with people together, the stupidest thing you

33:52

can do is to listen to one person and say,

33:56

okay, he should be he's right probably or she's right probably

34:00

or whatever, and not challenge that. We are here

34:04

today alive because we are

34:07

able to communicate, to invent,

34:11

to create, and also to think critically.

34:15

And that is something that is a skill

34:19

that should be taught from kindergarten upwards.

34:23

Think critically. When you hear a politician in Belgium, they had

34:27

elections together with European elections. So before the summer or that

34:30

beginning of the summer, we still don't have a

34:34

government. And what these people show is profound lack

34:38

of leadership. They are

34:41

bickering, they are discussing about topics

34:45

that really don't matter and they are not able to come to an

34:49

agreement. That is, that is, that is not leadership. That is stupidity.

34:54

And that's plain and simple. So we need to be

34:57

very careful about what we believe

35:01

about the world, what we do with our, you know, with our

35:05

lives and how we spend our days. And I'm

35:09

here as the advocate. Spend your days wisely and

35:13

do things that, you know, give you energy,

35:16

that set you free, make you look to the to the

35:20

world in a different way. But that's that helps you and

35:23

the people around you.

35:27

It's plain and simple. Should we be scared about AI? I mean, it's

35:31

we talk about masculine, feminine, non binary, and AI truly is

35:34

an is an it. It has no gender identity or

35:38

concept of self. It is it's making stuff up based on patterns of other

35:42

of old information. Yeah. Yeah. It has no identity.

35:45

We we give it identity, but it has no identity. It still is

35:49

a machine. Maybe someday, I don't know, but

35:53

definitely not for the foreseeable future. But

35:57

it it has all the it resembles someone

36:01

who has identity and personality and all these

36:04

things, but it's not. So will it change the

36:08

way we work? Most definitely. Will it take away jobs? Yes,

36:12

of course. Will it create new jobs? Definitely.

36:16

So the question is not, will I be without a job because of

36:20

AI? No. No. The question is, how can you use that new

36:23

tool to make your job better or to make your life better?

36:27

So start using it. That's but in a smart

36:30

way. And and don't forget, you you are not a robot. You are you are

36:34

not a machine. You're a human being. So be smart.

36:38

Yeah. I mean, that that's my view of AI. I'm a great believer in using

36:41

it as a an assistant, a tool, automation,

36:45

light for heavy lift. Fundamentally, at this current time, as

36:48

we say, December 2024, it doesn't have a soul. It doesn't

36:52

have a conscience. It doesn't have feelings or

36:56

empathy or love. Any parameters and patterns.

37:00

And you can often tell the difference between an AI generated

37:04

picture or content, unless it's been heavily

37:08

crafted by someone who gives it and injects it, a personality and

37:11

soul, it can appear very empty and heart without

37:15

without a center, without a heart. Yeah. So

37:19

but for so we face this, this

37:22

huge change as a society. It will be very

37:26

profound and we will start to feel the the thing is, a few

37:29

weeks ago, I, I was giving this

37:33

presentation about the impact of AI. Somebody from the audience asked, you

37:36

know, in our company, there's a discussion. Should we implement

37:40

start to implement AI? What is your take on that? And

37:44

and I said, well, you're asking the wrong the wrong

37:48

question. Oh, it's not about should we.

37:51

It's not even about about, you know,

37:56

how or when. It

38:00

is, you know, what can AI do for us

38:04

today? And when you look at AI, what it

38:08

can do? The answer is obvious. It can help you. It can

38:12

serve you in in in in amazing ways

38:15

to boost your productivity, to really set your people

38:19

free. And I will give you a small example. And

38:23

and one of the organizations that I that I, that

38:27

I'm working with, they started to implement AI to they have

38:30

offers coming in and documents in various formats,

38:34

PDF, you know, and they have to OCR it and and all that these

38:37

things. And it's still a quite a

38:41

manual job because because of the different formats. They started to

38:45

use AI for that and create a workflow. And now it goes

38:49

on automatically. And and the role of the people from

38:52

the from the department changed from processing

38:56

data to building clients' relationships,

39:00

which AI cannot do. Yeah.

39:05

So it's obvious. Will it change? In a sense, it will make it

39:08

more human. It's only if we choose to.

39:12

So If we look back at human history, you know, we we we go out,

39:16

I don't know, 30, 4000 years, about the time

39:19

where Homo sapiens became the dominant human species

39:23

beyond the the the andetholes and the other variants of human

39:27

evolution. We were living of the moment. We

39:30

didn't we we were we were hungry. We'd catch something. We'd eat it.

39:34

And then we mechanised. We created agriculture. We started

39:38

keeping animals as livestock, as

39:41

food for the future. We started planting

39:45

plants and cultivating. We took control over our

39:49

destiny by not having to live at the moment. And, of course, we

39:52

industrial revolution, mechanising boats, ships, airplanes,

39:56

tools, engines, petrol, etcetera. We've

40:00

we've we've created all these things over time. AI is just another

40:03

evolution of a tool along with computing and other other devices,

40:07

mobile phones, Internet, satellites, GPS, is

40:11

another tool that will displace existing

40:15

methods and technology and work and replace it with

40:18

different paradigms. It? Of course. You know, like, let's

40:22

make an analogy. Before we had washing machines,

40:25

women had to spend hours, you know, rubbing clothes

40:29

in fresh water with soap with their hands in order to clean

40:33

the clothes. Because of the washing machine,

40:37

women were set free. And it seems like

40:40

what? Yeah. But my mother, when she was

40:44

young, roads parts. You know? I still see people in many parts of the

41:01

world who have to walk for half a day to collect water and walk half

41:05

a day back again with the water. Yeah. Irrigation, sanitation.

41:09

So, yeah. So technology service, of course. Can

41:13

technology used to be used against us? Most definitely.

41:17

Yeah. Like everything. You know, a tool for

41:21

chopping wood can be used to kill somebody. So we have to be very

41:24

smart about this tool and really think about, you know,

41:28

how we will use it to benefit us and to reflect

41:32

also on, you know, what does that mean for us as

41:36

humans? The way we work, the way we earn money, it will

41:39

be it will be different. You can see that

41:43

already happening. So it's

41:46

exciting. I'm excited by it. It's one of the few things I think,

41:50

if only I was 20 again. The the technological

41:54

leaps and bounds that are occurring right now in the world, I wanna I

41:58

wanna another 50 years of this. I mean, I'm I'm a bit older than you,

42:01

not much. I'm thinking, hang on a bit. By the time this gets really exciting,

42:04

I'll be in my seventies. I wanna I wanna another go. I wanna go around

42:07

again. Yeah. Yeah. Well, it's

42:11

life is a mandala. We as a species,

42:15

as a society, as a family, we're we're growing and evolving all the time. And

42:19

I guess, you know, if I if I had my life again, I'd be wanting

42:22

the next thing and the next thing and the next thing. Like, you're you're a

42:26

podcaster. Could you have could you have

42:29

imagined, like, 5 years ago or maybe 10 years ago, it didn't

42:33

exist? No. And the the ease, you know, I I we're using a

42:37

platform now called Riverside, which has AI technology. It helps

42:41

produce show notes. It will clean the audio up, take the clicks and knocks out

42:44

of it. And when I first started this, I was going into tools and I

42:47

have to clean up the audio myself. I'd have to hire someone to read

42:51

through or listen listen to the episode,

42:54

transcribe it for me semi manually. And, yeah, I can

42:58

turn a show around now in 20 minutes, half an hour, whereas it would take

43:01

me half a day before. So huge leaps about.

43:06

Yeah. It's making the podcasting accessible. I can also generate

43:10

assets for YouTube and bouncing audiograms and other things.

43:14

When this episode goes out, you'll be able to access this on YouTube with a

43:17

bouncing audiogram as well. So, yeah, lots and lots of tools out there. Yeah. Yeah.

43:21

Yeah. I'm excited for the for that part of the future. I mean,

43:24

I'm less less excited about some of the other trouble we've got in

43:28

the world, you know, the the rise of the conflicts that are developing

43:32

between certain parts of east as

43:36

versus certain parts of the west. And there's some north south issues.

43:40

There's poverty, there's eco climate change,

43:44

extremist views dominating the world, fueled by social

43:48

media, by media bias. And you think, well, hang on a minute, we're

43:51

creating a more enlightened society, but with all these

43:55

flashpoints, all these triggers that are there. Yeah. Yeah.

43:58

Well, I like I like to see myself as someone who has a

44:02

positive impact on people. And

44:06

that's why that's why I teach, I coach, I talk.

44:12

And people you know, for me, it's all about a human connection. You

44:16

know? In essence, it's about, you know,

44:19

us and, you know, what you what we are doing here on this

44:23

planet. And my small contribution to that is every time I

44:27

see somebody struggling with something, to maybe open a

44:30

door in in their metaphorically in their minds where they

44:34

can see a new path, something else that they hadn't

44:38

seen before. And 1 by 1, person by person,

44:41

if I can see that's happening, that that

44:45

gives me a sense of purpose. For me, I'm 55 years old. I'm here

44:49

to prepare the next generation. So the people usually who come to

44:52

my training courses are late 20 until

44:57

early 40, usually. So these

45:00

people have to do it for the moment. They have to they have to pick

45:04

up those tools. They have to pick up those skills as well. They

45:08

have to be they do things differently

45:12

than their predecessors. And they have also to be able to

45:16

challenge their predecessors, even if they are their bosses.

45:20

And it's a bold statement, but it is necessary. We're

45:23

going to give our listener

45:27

some advice. What is the one top tip you'd like to leave them with

45:31

as a result of our conversation today? The top tip based on

45:35

what we discussed is think

45:38

again. When you hear something, when you

45:42

see something, really do the research, make sure

45:46

that you make wise decisions. Be

45:49

knowledgeable. You know, you hear sometimes people say, you know,

45:55

things are not what they seem to be. And then, you know, this is a

45:59

whole conspiracy. Well, there is a conspiracy,

46:03

and this conspiracy only lives inside your head. You

46:06

know, the conspiracy is we are the system, and we can

46:10

change it. And so you can change it. So the

46:14

so think again, be smart, be knowledgeable. Believe

46:18

everything you hear and see, because it's a deep fake

46:22

with media bias, with people's bias. Yeah. You're right. We've

46:25

got a challenge why people are trying to say something or what they're

46:29

really trying to tell us. Yeah. Excellent. News news is a product.

46:33

Yes. Or if it or you're the product, so I'm trying to sell to you.

46:36

Sometimes you are the product. Yes. Completely. Yeah. So

46:40

be How do people get a hold of you, Steff? If you want to track

46:42

you down, what's the best way to get a hold of you? Well, I've had

46:46

I have this very, very, very tiny, tiny, tiny website with only

46:50

one page on it, and it's coachsteff.life, and that's

46:54

Steff with double f. So coachsteff.life.

46:58

And there you find all the all the inroads to what I

47:02

do and where where you can see me or find me or reach me. I

47:06

just clicked on that link now. Let's have a quick look. Yep. It's

47:09

coachsteff.live. Blue background. There's a picture of you in the

47:13

middle. And, you got you got some

47:17

audio books on there. Is that, you got a free book of you? Yeah?

47:20

Yeah. Yeah. So I got some books there. And and also I would

47:24

like to offer, based on our discussion, I will create,

47:30

a small guided meditation like we

47:33

discussed. Yeah. Kind of a

47:37

a guided dream that will help your listeners, so you

47:41

as a listener, to open your minds and to,

47:45

to get smarter. So I I'll put that together, and, I will put it on

47:49

the link. So coachsteff.life/inclusionbites.

47:53

I'll put that in the show notes as well so that, we can signpost

47:57

it easily for people who have not quite got to the end of the

48:00

podcast. Maybe they've nipped off for coffee halfway through and forgot to

48:04

forgot to press play again. Who could do that? Yeah. Or

48:08

whatever. Or it's side tracked. It's been an

48:11

absolutely fascinating conversation, Steff. I've really enjoyed meeting you, getting to know you, and

48:15

hearing some of your thoughts about the world. And it's, a lot of

48:19

what you're saying resonates deeply with some of the things that I went through

48:23

when I gender transition coming up for 10 years ago, and

48:26

the the challenges I have with my wife, my children, and my work, and

48:30

my colleagues and things. Yeah. The world's

48:34

changed in the last 10 years. Some of it for the better. Some of

48:37

it, I'm not going to say for the worst. It's just different. Just

48:41

different. It's a different colour. That's what I'm going to say to

48:45

Near the brown, but it's the the sunny. But, yeah.

48:48

But, yeah, it's different. Thank you. That's that's it's been absolutely fascinating. So,

48:53

thank you for listening in this far.

48:56

As we bring this conversation to a close, I want to

49:00

express my deepest gratitude to you, our listener, for

49:04

lending your ear and heart to the cause of

49:07

inclusion. Today's discussion struck a chord.

49:11

Consider subscribing to Inclusion Bites, and become part of

49:15

our ever growing community, driving real change.

49:18

Share this journey with friends, family, and colleagues. Let's amplify

49:22

the voices that matter. Got thoughts,

49:26

stories, or a vision to share? I'm all ears.

49:29

Reach out to jo.lockwood@seechangehappen.co.uk, and let's make your voice heard. Until next time. This

49:38

is Joanne Lockwood signing off with a promise to return

49:42

with more enriching narratives that challenge, inspire,

49:46

and unite us all. Here's to fostering a more inclusive world,