0:00

Foreign welcome to Inclusion Bites, your

0:10

sanctuary for bold conversations that spark change. I'm

0:14

Joanne Lockwood, your guide on this journey of exploration into the

0:18

heart of inclusion, belonging and societal

0:21

transformation. Ever wondered what it truly takes to create

0:25

a world where everyone not only belongs but

0:28

thrives? You're not alone. Join me as we

0:32

uncover the unseen, challenge the status quo

0:36

and share stories that resonate deep within.

0:40

Ready to dive in? Whether you're sipping your morning coffee

0:43

or winding down after a long day, let's connect,

0:47

reflect and inspire action together.

0:51

Don't forget, you can be part of the conversation too. Reach out

0:54

to jo.lockwood@seechangehappen.co.uk

0:59

to share your insights or to join me on the show.

1:03

So adjust your earbuds and settle in. It's time to

1:07

ignite the spark of inclusion with Inclusion Bites.

1:14

Today is episode 148

1:18

with the title Allyship in Action

1:22

and I have the absolute honour and privilege to welcome Julie

1:26

Kratz. Julie is an allyship and

1:29

inclusion speaker, consultant and author

1:33

who helps leaders foster workplace environments.

1:38

She is a Forbes contributor and TEDx speaker and

1:41

draws on her corporate experience to our organisations

1:45

with actionable strategies for allyship and

1:49

belonging. When I asked Julie to describe her

1:52

superpower, she said it is her ability to

1:56

transform allyship into actionable strategies

2:00

that inspire inclusive leadership.

2:04

Hello. Hello Julie. Welcome to the show.

2:07

Thanks so much for having me, Joanne. Absolute pleasure. We just

2:11

chatted away for probably half an hour in the green room and burnt a lot

2:14

of time. A fascinating conversation. I can't wait to bring some of that into

2:18

the conversation for our listeners today. So thank you for joining us. So

2:22

Julie, you have been on a journey from

2:25

corporate and you've pivoted to become a leading voice

2:29

in allyship and inspiring others. So what sparked your

2:32

passion for creating more inclusive workplaces?

2:36

Great question. I So I spent 12 years in corporate before starting my

2:40

own business nearly 10 years ago. So big year this year,

2:43

10th anniversary. I never really dreamed of being an entrepreneur,

2:47

but it was out of the necessity of my

2:51

own difficult time surviving in corporate America. So I'm here in the

2:55

States and it's, you know, I'm sure similar in other parts

2:59

of the world, but that sense of belonging,

3:02

the sense of inclusion, having leaders I could trust and feel

3:06

psychologically safe with, just didn't exist.

3:10

And I continued to think it was me and I needed to

3:14

change or it was the industry or if I get my mba, then

3:17

things will be better. And no matter how

3:21

hard I worked, I kept finding the same problem

3:25

and Then it dawned on me when I had my daughter, I just

3:29

couldn't leave her to go to a workplace and

3:33

work that didn't. And this happens a lot to folks that

3:36

are caregivers, men and women and non binary folks like

3:40

it's you just realise your

3:44

purpose of life is much deeper than a paycheck. And

3:48

she was a year old. I'm the primary breadwinner and took

3:52

a leap of faith that other people were having a similar challenge. I did

3:56

and needed tools that I didn't have when I was a leader.

3:59

And that's when next pivot point was born. And

4:03

it became quite obvious to me in the first few years

4:07

as I spent time in the community and talked with folks especially of different

4:10

lived experience and identities from me that

4:14

we needed allies. You know, us talking women, talking to each other about

4:18

women's quote unquote issues which are societal issues

4:22

isn't helpful. Um, it's therapeutic. It feels

4:25

good, you know, to rant in the moment but it doesn't really

4:29

evoke change. And so how do we engage allies

4:33

in the conversation? It became quite clear to me that we

4:36

needed to broaden the conversation. And so that's really my

4:40

life's work. What I hope to leave the world with more allies in it

4:44

than I found. I like that, I really like that because that, that, that sort

4:47

of aligns with some of my ethos if you like. I, I get frustrated that

4:51

I can't change the world. But what I came to realise was I can't change

4:53

myself and I can change how I show up and I can

4:57

show change how I influence those around me. So

5:01

that's really the core of allyship really, isn't it? Isn't it just

5:05

showing up and being the best you, you can be.

5:08

Yeah, I think, I think that's the

5:12

basic premise of allyship. The

5:15

challenge is the works evolved and you know, we can look at the

5:19

year 2020, right, and all the allies that came out.

5:24

It was much more of a performance. What we would call performative

5:28

allyship is oh, I posted, I bought the

5:31

thing from the black owned business. I, you know, said me

5:35

too is wrong. You know, just. That's great.

5:39

We absolutely need that. However, we need

5:43

people to do more than that. And it's a big ask if you think about

5:47

it. I've been on my own journey for the last 10 years.

5:50

I regretfully have not always been the best ally

5:54

myself. I said and done things that were inappropriate. I

5:58

have said things that were not helpful and luckily

6:02

people have called me in on that. And instead of getting defensive,

6:05

which is kind of easy to do,

6:09

decided to use it as fuel to get better. And

6:13

you know, I think, Joanne, we've asked people, it's a big ask,

6:17

I think, for what it means to be an active ally.

6:20

And that's where we're at now as we head into 2025.

6:24

Right. Like thinking about the political polarisation, you know, especially

6:28

in my country, I'm deeply concerned about our

6:32

future. We need people in positions of power to

6:35

share their power. And that, that is like a real

6:39

conundrum. Right? Like, because if you have power, why do you want to share

6:43

it? And we're seeing examples of people that they have power and

6:46

they want more power. It's like, don't you have enough? Like at some

6:50

point, don't you want to share? Just for context. So you're,

6:54

you live right in the middle of middle America, Indiana, I think it says you,

6:57

you're in. Yes. And you mentioned 2020 and

7:01

looking back, I mean it seems like yesterday, but also so far,

7:05

so far back in time. It was pre Covid, at the beginning

7:09

we had George Floyd, which started the Black Lives Matter or

7:13

reignited the Black Lives Matter. We had Harvey Weinstein and all

7:16

those other cases around the MeToo which sparked that in the US

7:20

and some incidents in the UK as well.

7:23

And then we had a lockdown and that

7:27

created this huge wellbeing vacuum where people,

7:30

everybody was suffering in a, in a, in a different

7:34

way for common cause. Corporate America, corporate uk,

7:38

corporate Europe, corporate everywhere. We think, how are we going to look after our people?

7:41

And suddenly we saw all of this well being initiatives, people

7:45

caring about people suddenly because even the people with

7:49

privilege were being impacted by Covid. So suddenly they got

7:53

it. And here we are in 2025 and the

7:57

world's gone backwards again, hasn't it?

8:00

Yeah, it's like a step forward, two steps back. I just

8:04

detest that analogy, but I think that's very

8:07

keen to describe where we're at right now, that it

8:11

evoked generosity and a shared experience

8:15

and a humility and a vulnerability in all of us because all

8:19

of us were deeply affected. There wasn't a single human on the planet, like

8:23

an extreme isolationist that didn't feel it right.

8:27

But now it's led to us being more isolated and

8:30

xenophobic and wanting to control

8:34

things and it's almost like a whip effect.

8:38

And I don't know what's in the future, but I have

8:42

to think the reason we're getting the backlash is

8:45

because it's working. There wouldn't be a target on

8:48

DEI if it

8:52

wasn't achieving some success. You wouldn't bother with

8:55

it. So it's a long game and I struggle

8:59

with that because I am a very impatient person. Sometimes

9:03

I think I just wasn't born at the right time. That I would have much

9:06

more impact if we could be 20 years in the future where things would be

9:09

better. But maybe now is the right time. This

9:13

tumultuous turmoil that we're in, kind of getting used to

9:16

it, you know, I would have been alarmed 10 years ago to see news stories

9:20

we're seeing today. And now we're kind of desensitised,

9:24

like, okay, yep, that's happening, sure, why not?

9:28

But the silver lining to all of this is

9:32

change is happening demographically.

9:36

It's demographics in our country for younger

9:39

generations are. They are what they are. My

9:42

daughter's generation, my daughter's 10, it is majority non white.

9:46

That is a fact. And they will be entering the workforce much like Gen Z

9:50

did, with the expectation of a diverse and inclusive experience. So

9:54

you can legislate around it. You can try to de.

9:58

Knock. I don't even have indoctrin. The children were doing, they were not

10:02

doing whatever you can try. But it's happening and

10:05

it's going to continue to happen. And so we just have to keep. For

10:09

me it's like keep that long view. 10, 20 years

10:13

from now is probably the work that we're doing now will

10:16

manifest much later. Is that as you mentioned,

10:20

that I'm sort of pondering in my head, is that, is that what's going on?

10:23

Is it that the fact that the people in power, people have the privilege are

10:27

becoming the minority and they're almost like having to hack themselves in their

10:31

own little communes or I would in the UK world, I'd

10:35

say in their castle. I'm pretty sure in America you don't have so many castles.

10:38

But I'm thinking about their in their old Norman Roman castles and putting

10:41

the drawbridge up, hiding and saying, look, hang on a minute. If we stay in

10:45

our castle and fight everybody off, we'll keep our

10:48

power and privilege against the marauders and the unwashed.

10:52

And the difference is that what's going on? Are people scared that they're losing their

10:56

right to govern, if you like. Yeah, I think that's exactly

11:00

it. There's a few falsehoods at play on the

11:03

concept of the zero sum game. This is a big problem

11:07

we have in capitalist societies where they're very much I

11:11

win, you lose. I mean, we're taught that from a young age playing games. I

11:15

hate losing and someone else winning doesn't mean I

11:18

lose. Like generally speaking, when we make things better

11:22

for the most marginalised, we make them better for everyone. Right. There's the curb

11:25

cut effect for just disabled people like cut curbs.

11:29

It made it easier for me as a walker, a runner, a

11:32

stroller person, a bike rider. So it's,

11:36

it's this zero sum game that we really have to cheque people on. How is

11:39

making things better for someone else costing us? What is it costing us?

11:43

And if you're in a position of power, I think is a really good gut

11:47

cheque. I also think there is this last

11:50

stand kind of narrative and I honestly thought we

11:54

got that over with first Trump presidency, but apparently

11:58

there's more ammo ready to come out. Not to use a

12:01

violent analogy, but let's be honest, I mean it is,

12:06

it does feel like to be white,

12:10

for example. I think in, especially in America where we have not addressed

12:13

our racial past, it is barely taught in schools, it is very much

12:17

like slavery happened. We're good. Move on with your

12:21

life. When you don't acknowledge

12:25

our problematic history, you're much more likely to

12:29

repeat it. We know that's why we teach history.

12:32

And so this whole. I have to take the. I need

12:36

to hold on to the power as long as I can possibly hold

12:40

on to that. And if that, I think in our country is

12:44

whiteness, those are the people in power. 70

12:47

plus percent of C suite leaders, Congress, you know, you

12:51

just look at any body of power and this is really worldwide,

12:55

but especially in our country is white and

12:59

that doesn't reflect the diversity of the

13:02

population. And I think too one last

13:06

hypothesis is I think they're worried that there's going to be some

13:09

revenge when the people you've kept down start

13:13

to come up. Yeah, kind of like you think about

13:16

revolutions in Europe. I mean they're setting the conditions for that

13:20

to happen right now and I don't want to be a doomsday, but

13:24

you can't keep people down for so long

13:27

before they don't revolt or resist. It kind of happened in South Africa when

13:31

the white minority rule came to an end and the black

13:35

majority took over. The black population

13:38

repossessed the white farms, the white people became

13:42

marginalised or correctly marginalised.

13:46

The country was reset and there's that active purging of the white

13:49

population out of positions of power in organisations and

13:53

land seizures and everything. I guess there is a track record here of what

13:56

happens when the, the tide flips and so, yeah, I

14:00

mean there's. Was it.

14:04

Quoting US politics is probably not my strong point, but was it JFK said

14:08

a rising tide floats all boats the same or something? Yeah,

14:12

that was. But that analogy is so, so true.

14:15

That was a 1960s thing and I think we've, we've forgotten that. I,

14:19

Richard Nixon, if I remember correctly, was trying to. Before he was

14:25

taken out of power, he was trying to get universal basic income. And if he'd

14:28

have carried on with his presidency, it may well be that US implemented

14:32

UBI in some shape or form. And those were radical policies to create

14:35

inclusive environments and recognising the population, it's way ahead of its

14:39

time. And now we've got Roe versus Wade being

14:42

overturned and other things. In the us permanent action is

14:46

probably. Going to be gay marriage next. I'm not even going to be surprised.

14:49

Right. Tale though, isn't it,

14:53

where they suddenly you're in a, you're in a same sex relationship and the next

14:56

day you're not. Right. You're not married, not

15:00

married anymore. You lose all your benefits, lose your rights and everything. You can't,

15:04

can't fly on that passport. Trans people, they can't drive anymore in

15:08

Florida because their past, their driving licence has suddenly been revoked.

15:11

Yep. Yeah, got it right,

15:15

didn't she? Yeah. In the 1990s, I was like, wow, how did you see that?

15:19

Yeah, that's one of the disturbing shows that I

15:23

allow myself to watch because I have to be very mindful about doing

15:27

inclusion work day in, day out, 40,

15:30

50 hours a week is, as you know, it's a lot,

15:34

it's very taxing, mentally hard on our

15:38

health. And Handmaid's Tale is one of

15:41

my ones that I can get into for some reason because I think it's

15:45

like, are we headed in this direction? And that was my first thought

15:49

on November 6th when I woke up to the news.

15:53

I was one completely shocked. And

15:57

that just speaks to like the echo chambers we have here. I had no

16:00

idea 51% of our country felt that way. I

16:04

just didn't, I didn't think it was possible.

16:08

In my home state, we overwhelmingly voted for him.

16:11

In my county, luckily we went the other direction. So

16:15

we're just all in our own spaces talking to each other

16:19

and not talking to the other groups.

16:24

And this is how you get something like the Handmaid's Tale. This

16:28

is how you get a reversal of rights when you see each other. As the

16:31

enemy and dividing is finding those

16:34

probar and Those differences between you out. So suddenly you're

16:38

polarising women, you're polarising Hispanic and black

16:42

people, you polarising this. They go for him. Yeah,

16:45

hold your country's trash and you're rapists and you

16:49

voted for him. Like I, part of me wants to be like,

16:53

you deserve this, like, you voted for this. See what

16:57

happens. And that's spiteful and mean. But that was

17:01

my reaction for the first few weeks. And as

17:04

I've, you know, now two months later, kind of marinated on it,

17:08

it's, it's gonna be okay.

17:12

The conditions, what's, what's interesting here in the States and I know we have

17:16

a ripple effect across the world and luckily in the uk, where you're at, hopefully

17:19

you're on the other side of this. So hopeful for y'all, but where we're at,

17:23

we're still here wrestling with this

17:26

is he's setting up the conditions

17:30

for, at a minimum, a deep

17:33

resistance movement, if not a revolution.

17:37

And I don't use those words lightly. I don't think we're like civil war,

17:41

but we're really marching up to something that's going

17:45

to be a very deep conflict. And we know

17:49

from the first presidency MeToo happened his first year.

17:53

I don't think that's a coincidence when you have a known rapist and

17:57

sexual harasser in office. And like you said, Black Lives

18:00

Matter reignited. Granted, pandemic, George Floyd was

18:04

fuel. But would that still have happened if

18:08

Biden or somebody say, reasonable, but somebody

18:11

that's not, you know. Yeah, racist

18:15

was in office? Maybe, maybe, maybe not

18:18

so. And most of the people in my profession

18:22

are like, let's give it six months, let's see what

18:25

happens. I don't think people are going to take this. I just

18:29

don't. 49%, 50%

18:33

of us, whatever it is, like, we're not going to take it.

18:37

It's got Senate, it's got Congress, it's got everything, aren't they? I mean, there's no

18:40

legislative sort of boundaries now Supreme

18:44

Court, who's going to say no? Who's going to the military?

18:47

Right. Well, and that's another thing he wants to use. I mean, the slim margin

18:51

in the House. Right. And not all Republicans are Trumpers.

18:55

Right. So, like that the House has one

18:59

vote to lose. So I, I doubt. And that,

19:03

that's really a two year thing. So we'll have the two year elections, the

19:06

midterms in what, 20, 26.

19:10

So there's really two years to get things through. And even that's Going to be

19:14

slim slum margins. I don't want to be dismissive of what's at

19:18

stake here. I love my country and it's

19:21

disturbing. The one thing we did learn from separating

19:25

from English power is to not let change happen quickly.

19:29

So our founding fathers, as problematic as they were,

19:32

did bake into our systems that you can't change things

19:36

very swiftly. So change takes forever here.

19:40

So this might be the part that's like a good thing.

19:44

The Constitution is so difficult, isn't it? Apparently it's so difficult you

19:48

can't add an amendment. I mean, we can't even get the Equal Rights Amendment amendment

19:51

passed from the 70s for women. Like, that's just bonkers.

19:55

It's not going to happen. Like, it, it takes so much to get a

19:58

majority in the Senate or the House. So what can he do, though? Executive

20:02

orders. So I, I think if you're an immigrant in this country, especially

20:06

one that's not fully legalised, there's some deep. I'd be very

20:10

deeply concerned if I were you and I empathise

20:13

deeply. I love immigrants. Every immigrant I've ever interacted with

20:17

has been a very positive experience. So I have no idea. People are

20:21

fearful and we have a labour shortage. Like, what are we, what are we doing

20:23

here? Like, these are great workers for our economy.

20:27

I don't, I don't understand that narrative. But what he is very

20:31

good at doing is creating fear of the other. And the other

20:35

could be black people, brown people, women, trans people,

20:38

gay people. It's just you're the other. And if you're not,

20:42

you know, the fit in that bell curve, like you said,

20:45

the. And like, if you don't fit into this, like,

20:48

prototypical type of, like, who's in power, white,

20:52

straight, cis, able bodied man, then you're the other.

20:57

The problem with that is, is that's a very slim part of our population.

21:01

So you've got like, let's throw out numbers here, but I would guess

21:05

60, 70% of people that don't fall into that box

21:09

that aren't going to put up with this. So we'll

21:13

see. We'll see. What I do love about my country

21:16

is we love a good social movement and we will get

21:20

one going here. So I have faithfully chosen the

21:23

word resistance for this year. I can't wait. I will not

21:27

be starting a resistance movement, but if anyone wants

21:31

to, please email me. I'll do everything to support you. I just don't want to

21:35

be that person. Yeah, maybe. Rosa, the term resistance

21:38

implies a struggle, a Fight or something. Maybe

21:42

friction slow things down, create. Put

21:45

sand in the ointment to grit things up a bit, to create

21:49

noise and to create great thinking is. I think it's what we're about as

21:52

DEI practitioners, isn't it really? It's about stopping, pausing, thinking,

21:56

reflecting, considering the needs of all,

22:00

not just the needs of the one. It's a bit like Spock on Touch

22:04

the needs of the one. Many outrage the needs of the one, isn't it? It's

22:07

trying to go back to that kind of altruistic view of the world.

22:11

And I think it just an understanding of what. What

22:15

doesn't benefit me can benefit me,

22:18

if that makes sense. Like providing, like you said, like universal health

22:22

care. Like we know everyone was fighting Obamacare back at.

22:26

You know, I myself wasn't a huge fan of it initially. Now, as a small

22:29

business owner with a family to support, I am so thankful

22:33

I have that and that that's not going away.

22:38

He tried the first. It's not going to go away. So

22:41

when we provide for other people, we provide for ourselves. Like you don't

22:45

have to. I didn't have to even like individually benefit from

22:49

that to recognise it's helping other people, it's helping our

22:52

systems be better to provide care and have

22:56

support mechanisms for people because if they feel supported then they're

22:59

going to be able to contribute more to society and that

23:03

benefits all of us. Somehow that utilitarianism like

23:07

that has been lost that narrative and I

23:11

don't know how to change people's thinking or not even change to

23:14

shift people's thinking. Like you said, it's just like these little nudges. That's what

23:18

I'm personally struggling with in the work right now. The people that we need to

23:21

care. Don'T seem to care, like we said,

23:25

about providing things for others that don't

23:28

necessarily seem to benefit us. Right now

23:32

I'm a week away from being 60

23:35

and I benefit from

23:39

lifts and escalators and

23:42

eyesight. My hearing is not as good as it was, I'm not as able,

23:47

my hips don't work as they used to and all this kind of thing. So

23:50

I do like a good travelator from time to time. You know, I can't carry

23:54

my luggage all the stairs anymore. I'm not 25. So

23:58

I'm now benefiting from the infrastructure that society has put in

24:02

place for people who need it from a disability point of view,

24:05

because I'm getting to the point where I'm now less. Describe myself as less

24:09

able, less Capable due to age. So we'll go skiing and break

24:12

a leg. Suddenly you are in need of support and healthcare

24:16

and access. So it happens to us all.

24:20

On ageism is the biggest ism of them all. We're,

24:23

we're fearful of our own mortality because the likelihood

24:27

of you becoming disabled at some point in your

24:31

life is extremely high. Like it's almost inevitable.

24:35

And so you're pointing that out. We don't want to think about that because it's,

24:39

it's too scary to fathom, like our own vulnerability. And I

24:43

think that's the heart of all the isms. We're too afraid

24:47

of accepting that

24:51

it somehow challenges our own virtues or our

24:54

own self image. And

24:58

that's deep stuff, you know, I don't know, I reflect on my own

25:02

journey and I don't know how it shifted for me,

25:05

but I often think like once you have that epiphany or eye opening

25:09

moment, you can't unsee it. I'm also curious, you know the people that

25:13

watch the George Floyd video, right. Because we were stuck at home and

25:17

you see this video and it's. I never watched it so I, I

25:20

couldn't have. You watched that eight minute video.

25:24

Something moved inside you. Some of it obviously blurred

25:27

out sort of the actual foot on the neck face

25:31

bit. But yeah, yeah, the eye can't breathe. Already at that

25:35

point. And when my husband showed it to me, I was pregnant, he put it

25:38

in my face. I was like, I can't, I cannot watch that.

25:42

And I was like, this happens all the time. Why do people care now?

25:46

And that's, that's where we're at again. It's like what

25:49

catalytic moment do we need? Like what does it take to

25:53

get people's attention? I'm deeply curious

25:57

about that. I don't know if you can manufacture it or plan for it.

26:00

I think it's a spontaneous thing that happens just at the

26:04

right time. So that's why

26:08

I'm kind of thankful that he's around. I just hate saying

26:12

his name. Hopefully listeners, you know what I'm talking about. It

26:15

brings January 6th, Capitol Hill. @ the end of his

26:19

last term that turned into a kind of a

26:22

revolution, but nothing ever came of it. Locked a few people up

26:27

who are going to be released in a few weeks time. No doubt they could

26:30

be given pardons. And you're coming,

26:34

you're giving a licence for people to bear arms.

26:38

Yeah. And I mean you don't even have to look in our news cycle here

26:41

in the US very often see the New Orleans

26:45

terrorist attack or whatever we're calling it. You know,

26:49

the cyber truck exploding or the Tesla. Yeah,

26:52

yeah, yeah. Taking matters into their own hands, it's like

26:56

vigilanteism is just. I mean, hey, if you

27:00

want guns in people's hands, be prepared for the consequences,

27:04

which I don't love. But we're just so

27:08

desensitised to all of these things, it doesn't even faze me

27:11

anymore. The school shootings still get me. Because that's just

27:15

extremely unacceptable for young people. It's crazy. It's crazy.

27:19

As a Brit, you look at it and think

27:23

the zero sum game is that if people carry

27:27

guns, I have to carry a gun. What we need is more guns to

27:31

scare more people. So if I, if I don't have a gun, I'm more likely

27:33

to get shot. I just can't see that game winning.

27:38

The bigger the gun. Everyone has a bigger gun. And at what

27:41

point do you stop? Apparently semi automatic rifles or automatic

27:45

rifles, machine guns, rocket launchers are kind of American

27:49

rights to bear arms apparently. Yeah, I don't see that one

27:53

changing. There's just too much, too much angst and money.

27:57

Too much money. The NRA and all this sort of stuff has got

28:00

politicians. It's like the fossil fuel, petroleum oil, it's all

28:04

too ingrained. Which is why climate change is being poo pooed. Because there's

28:08

no money in climate change at the moment. Because the people making batteries are the

28:11

Chinese, not the Americans. Right, yeah, that's the

28:15

whole thing too. Yeah. You look at again what's happening in LA right now.

28:19

The city, I feel people. But a fire has

28:23

never approached the city in this way before. And if climate change not real,

28:26

then what the heck's happening? You know, it's, it's

28:30

interesting the to me what we choose to accept,

28:34

that's just like. Yeah, that's just the way it is. Kids getting shot up at

28:37

a school, cities being burned down. Okay, that's just,

28:41

that's desensitised. Don't you. It doesn't shock anymore. Is that the

28:44

issue? Yeah. Oh totally. And I think

28:48

you know, to our DEI work, that's a big problem we have right now. The

28:52

news cycle is these headlines. It's a clickbaity

28:56

negativity bias on amped

28:59

up human brain is wired to pay attention to

29:03

negative things more than positive things for our survival. Right. We had to scan

29:06

the environment. Sabre Tooth Tiger, you better be paying attention. Obviously

29:10

today that's not the same. But who are the predators? What is

29:14

the scare tactic? And these headlines, even

29:17

positive stories. So at the time we're recording,

29:21

McDonald's tracked on DEI, right?

29:25

And I have people telling me this, like, that's actually true. If you look at

29:28

what they did, they put things back in the franchise's hands, which.

29:32

That makes sense, that the franchises should be reflecting their local

29:36

communities that are probably very diverse and distinct. And they're still

29:39

supporting their employee resource groups or affinity groups. They're still supporting

29:44

a lot of the criteria. They just backing out of a couple things.

29:48

Everyone does that in any strategy, DEI or any

29:52

competitive advantage strategy. You don't keep it forever, you shift

29:55

it. And so what if we shift the language to inclusion, belonging,

29:59

culture, I don't care, call it whatever you want, just do

30:03

the work. And we're so busy defending

30:07

the work that we're not doing the work that's on

30:10

purpose. Like, that is an intentional strategy that's being

30:14

used against us. And I just, after two years of enduring this

30:17

perceived backlash, had my second

30:21

best year out of 10 last year as a DEI business owner,

30:25

just refused to play into this narrative. So one

30:29

of the things I'm personally doing is I have a lot of PR people that

30:31

contact me because they want to be on my podcast, my Forbes column,

30:35

which is great, it's interesting to me, but they like to pitch negative

30:39

stories. And I just started writing back, I'll take positive stories,

30:42

please. And you know what it's changed is they started saying, like, I'll work

30:46

on that, thank you for that feedback. Like, well, maybe they'll do that with other

30:49

people too, you know, like, I think we need to push back on

30:53

the pushback. I'm sick of playing defence, I want to play some

30:57

offence. I find myself doing that with my LinkedIn post. I did a

31:00

poll end of last year, it said, DEI must

31:04

die, yes or no. And it had the most engagement I've

31:07

had on a post in many, many years. Because people really polarised

31:11

around, yeah, dei's had its day. It's all this, it's all that, and everyone's going,

31:15

no, no, no. And some people thought I was just rearranging the words. I

31:19

was obviously d, I must die. But it is a play on words.

31:23

But, yeah, you got the most. And just there was this polarisation occurred

31:26

and it was. We used negative hooks. You say the headlines, people don't read the

31:30

article, they read the headline and use their confirmation bias and

31:34

their beliefs to extrapolate what that means without reading the

31:37

detail. And it's the tactic of the media to get the clicks to get

31:41

the shock, to get the awe. Totally. And it's working

31:45

and we're letting it work, all of us. You know, if I look through my

31:48

LinkedIn feed for a pulse, it's the only social media I allow myself to consume

31:52

anymore for my mental health. It's still quite toxic. You know,

31:56

people actively commenting, you know, it's like, why are you following me

31:59

if you don't want inclusion? Like, stop following

32:03

me. That's on you. That's, that's, that's actually my superpower

32:07

is because I'm, I'm not, I don't hide that I'm a

32:11

trans woman. I polarise people. Therefore the people who I polarise, they don't want to

32:14

talk to me, they just never contact me. I just don't get anyone phone me

32:17

up. So the people who phone me are the people who want to talk to

32:20

me and are interested. So I think it's a great marketing tactic. It's, it's

32:23

beautiful. I don't know if you have Marmite in the us. It's like a Vegemite

32:27

type, really, kind of yeast extract and it's quite a

32:31

sharp, strong taste. And Marmite is known for being, you love it or you hate

32:34

it. So we want to. In the same way

32:38

that the headlines you're saying are polarising negatively,

32:41

actually speaking up as a DEI practitioner, saying, this is my values, this is who

32:45

I am, and encouraging businesses to do the same. You

32:49

polarise and create your brand as inclusive. Your

32:52

brand is this. That way you, you attract the people. And

32:56

I. Was it Dylan Mulvaney and was it Bud Light and people like

33:00

that? Oh, right, there's all this campaign and these other,

33:04

the bra manufacturers that engaged Dylan Mulvaney as well. And, and all

33:08

this kind of all this shock horror about, oh, you can't do that. And

33:12

suddenly Budweiser sales went down and everyone's going, oh, look,

33:16

this is what happens if you support these woke causes. And it's like, these

33:19

headlines aren't true. You know, this, this is, it's just

33:23

myths. Exactly how they handled it so poorly that led to that

33:26

decline. That was the problem. Yeah. Nothing to do with Dylan. Had everything

33:30

to do with the poor management of it. Like, if they should have held the

33:33

rope, they should have stood. Stood their ground and should have said, we're positive about

33:37

this. Yeah. So what if you lose a few customers? Are those

33:40

customers you want? They can stay. They probably lost the customers because they threw

33:44

people under the bus. They, they, they banktracked. If they just stayed states,

33:48

everybody yeah, right. Yeah. So I think,

33:52

I think that's a great example and I also think some great case studies that

33:56

have come up as of late, again, more here in the States, but

33:59

globally, like Costco is one of our like warehouse brands, if you're

34:03

familiar with that. Joanne? Yeah, yeah, we have Costco over here.

34:06

Yeah. Okay, cool. No one's perfect, but they're pretty.

34:10

Inclusion is like a part of their strategy. And I was, it was so interesting.

34:14

I was reading a New York Times article on them in like mid

34:17

December about how they, they're all about

34:21

developing their talent from within. So you start as an hourly worker

34:24

and they pay a very competitive wage and the 20 something dollars, which is a

34:28

very good wage here for hourly workers. And then

34:32

they self promote through and they treat their people really well and

34:36

they have an intentional strategy around inclusion and diversity and their

34:39

hiring and promotion processes. Great. Nothing controversial.

34:43

There's. Well then their shareholders come up with

34:47

like, I don't want any more of this DEI hiring, which I don't even know

34:50

what DEI hiring is to be. I'm not familiar. I don't know what it is

34:53

either. No. So like setting goals. I don't know,

34:57

debiasing the process, like. Anyway, you're for a fair

35:01

chance, apparently. Warner unanimously said, no, thank you.

35:05

We will be moving forward as planned. This is a part of our strategy and

35:08

who we are. It's aligned with our mission, our vision and our values, full

35:12

stop. American Airlines just did the same thing.

35:15

So suddenly we start to see the tides

35:19

changing. Not to use like a metaphor, but like something's

35:23

shifting and is it coincidental that it's happening at the same time

35:27

in our political environment? Shifting. So,

35:30

you know, to kind of full circle on the silver lining

35:34

we were talking about at the beginning. I think, I think

35:38

dei, if I had a

35:41

crystal ball and some predictions, you're probably not going to call it

35:45

DEI anymore, especially here where it might be

35:49

illegal. I think you already pushed through an executive order. Not that you can't

35:53

do DEI training if you work with the government. So, okay,

35:57

we don't call it DEI anymore. It does not change the work.

36:00

And as practitioners, I think we really need.

36:04

I'm urging my clients and other practitioners, let's not

36:08

be so worried about the words we use. We've only been calling a DEI for

36:11

like the last five years. Is it that big of a deal to shift to

36:15

a. What does it really mean? As, as you said just now, what is diversity?

36:18

It's, it's a fact. You can't train People on diversity. It's just

36:22

happening. It's just a fact. It is, it just is. Yeah,

36:26

yeah. Inclusion, you can train people on. And I,

36:29

if I were to really think about what I do for a living, that's what

36:32

I do, is inclusive, train inclusive, more

36:36

leadership training. But inclusion training, culture, work,

36:39

belongingness, well. Being, psychological safety, all this kind

36:43

of stuff. Yeah, you're really never doing the E. And I know the E is

36:47

really important and the systems have to change along with individual behaviour. But let's be

36:50

honest, companies aren't doing a crappy job at equity.

36:54

We can't even get pay equity. So. No,

36:58

that's a lot is recognising someone who's

37:01

neurodiverse, autistic, has a disability, needs a little

37:05

bit extra help. And we do that for our kids in college and schools. This

37:08

person's got dyslexia. We need to give them special dispensation in exams or

37:12

give them something to help with screen readers, whatever. Our phones, our laptops, our

37:16

computers have little red squiggly lines under spelling mistakes now and they

37:20

can read stuff out. So equity is being built into our

37:24

infrastructure anyway, so we're a lot more equitable

37:28

in the systems we have. And that's what we're doing is making sure that

37:31

people can access fairly. That's equity. Not giving people

37:35

any special rights. It's just floating the

37:39

boats, I think. Where we lose people. And

37:42

let's be honest, I mean, we know this, there's research on this. This is

37:46

a fact that the more educated you are, the more likely you are to support

37:50

inclusion, at least in our country. So there's an education

37:53

gap. And when you use acronyms

37:57

and you use words like equity that people don't understand,

38:00

just it's not an obvious word word we use

38:04

very often when you use words that people don't understand in

38:07

acronyms, it creates fear. You're talking down to me, making me

38:11

feel like I don't know something and that's not a good starting

38:15

place. So ditching acronyms,

38:19

focusing on inclusion, I'm okay with it. Honestly,

38:22

Absolutely. Please don't mishear me on this. Like, it does not change the work I

38:26

do at all. But if the label, the packaging

38:30

needs to shift to make it more palatable and acceptable for folks and

38:33

legal, like country. Okay, let's just

38:37

do it and get it over with. I'm sick of talking about. I'm not a

38:40

fan of D I, D and I D I B D I J, whatever

38:44

acronym you like, because it's all about buzzwords and

38:47

input. I want to talk about the outcomes. What do we look? What's the outcome

38:51

we're trying to achieve fairness, a respect environments where people can

38:54

thrive, people feel safe, they got trust in the process.

38:58

They feel if they work hard and try hard and do the right things, they're

39:01

going to succeed. It's not overcoming this bullshit BS of

39:05

meritocracy and this belief that the dice and the bases are loaded. We got

39:09

to. That's where equity comes in, where we're offsetting privilege

39:12

and natural fairness. That's, that's a synonym to equity. I mean

39:16

there's more to equity, but fairness is a quintessential part of

39:20

equity. It's interesting that you brought that up, Joanne, because

39:23

there's a thought leader, probably the most prolific thought leader

39:27

I follow in the DE currently as we call it the DEI space. Lily

39:30

Zhang. Yeah, follow them

39:34

as well. They just posted about

39:38

their new book and it appears to be a fairness

39:42

title. So I was really intrigued by that because for two

39:45

reasons. One, personally I went through psychological safety

39:48

certification a year ago and they make you do

39:52

this values assessment. I don't make you, but you have to as part of the

39:55

certification. And off the charts, I am like off the

39:59

charts with fairness. Like fairness is something. If it is not

40:02

fair, I don't feel psychologically safe.

40:06

Wife didn't survive in corporate America. Right. Like makes sense

40:10

but they're underlying. Most humans are

40:14

wired for fairness. You give a kid, two kids, different slices of

40:17

pie, they're like, that's not fair. I didn't get the same amount. We

40:21

are wired to appreciate fairness

40:25

and to want to share and things to be fair. So what if we

40:29

pivoted to fairness? Come at me. Just like inclusion. What you want

40:32

exclusion, Come at me. I will defend that all day long.

40:36

The tricky spot I'm in with dei, it's a little harder to, it's much harder

40:40

to defend, to be honest because I have to first explain to you what it

40:43

means, which that's a huge problem. So now I have to explain to you what

40:46

it means. So now I've made you feel like you, I know something you don't

40:49

know and I'm somehow better than you because I know that, which

40:53

is not the way we want to approach this. And then you have to

40:56

get people to understand how to do it. This multi step

41:00

process, if we just said fairness, inclusion,

41:04

it really shortcuts all of that. And like either you want things that are fair

41:07

and inclusive or you don't. If you don't I can't help you.

41:10

Problem solved. I just want to believe that I can

41:14

succeed on my own merit. That's what I want to know. And

41:17

if I need some help, I can ask for it and I'll be given it.

41:21

That's, that's, that's what it's all about, really. And if I don't need the help,

41:24

I don't get upset because somebody else gets the help. That's, that's really what we're

41:28

trying to do here. And whether that's in the hiring process, the

41:32

employee experience, stakeholder, the customer, whatever, wherever you

41:36

are in the system and the queue, you just want to, you don't want to

41:39

have trust. Trust and fairness, it's gotta be there.

41:44

You can say you're fair, but if I don't trust your fairness. So it's

41:48

building trust. And that's about brand, it's about values. So all those good things

41:51

about that alignment, isn't it? Yeah. Well, I appreciate they use the

41:55

word help. Really interesting. This is

41:59

probably more of an American thing. We don't like to ask

42:03

for help. That's being weak. Right. But what's interesting

42:06

about human beings as a whole is we're a social

42:10

species. We don't survive on our own. We would have never gotten to this point

42:13

of evolution if we didn't have each other in groups or tribes or whatever you

42:16

want to call them. Only the last 10% of our human history have

42:20

we not been hunting and gathering. Right. So it's is this whole

42:24

idea of, like, we had to one, to survive, prove

42:28

that we were helpful to the group so the group would want to keep us,

42:31

so we stayed safe, and we had to be willing to accept help from others

42:34

so other people could feel helpful. This is a deeply primal human

42:38

need. That's what allyship is all

42:41

about, is being helpful. The research on it

42:45

shows just like mentorship, it's not the mentee that really

42:48

benefits, it's the mentor. It's the ally that

42:52

benefits, not the person that's being allied. Of course they benefit by, you know,

42:56

disrupting barriers or making introductions or whatever you're doing.

43:00

But the act of helping someone and feeling helpful is

43:03

deeply fulfilling. And so if we created

43:07

conditions where people could ask for help and people could

43:11

provide help, we would all be better. But we have all

43:14

these, like, weird barriers around it, like these

43:18

psychological triggers around it.

43:21

And I'll be honest with you, as someone that teaches allyship,

43:25

we usually teach what we don't, what we need, ourselves. I hate

43:28

asking for help. I Hate it. It's

43:32

very vulnerable. And so it's just an interesting space that we're in. We have

43:36

to, like you said, be willing to ask for help and accept it. Something I

43:39

learned, you know, I. I gender transitioned effectively 8, 9, 10 years

43:42

ago, and I spent most of my life being invincible.

43:46

Being privileged, not feeling I needed as a man.

43:50

Yeah. Not feeling I needed anything as a white man, as a perceived straight

43:53

white man. And what I learned very quickly as

43:57

a woman is that I am inherently more

44:01

vulnerable. As a trans woman, I'm even more vulnerable. And

44:05

so I decided to rather reject that. I lent into

44:08

it and I embraced that vulnerability and I

44:12

thought I'm more. I'm more open to share about what.

44:16

What. What makes me happy, what makes me sad when I'm feeling

44:19

worried. I'm more willing to reach out to people now

44:23

than I ever was before because

44:27

I haven't been. Having spent most of my life

44:30

invincible, now I'm not. I realise

44:34

actually I need help. I don't have that huge network of

44:37

protection anymore. So I have to ask people and lean

44:41

into people when it's there. Especially when you're in a place that's not

44:44

safe for you. Like, you need allies around you,

44:49

not that you don't. I think without trying to play

44:52

a stereotype here, I think that women are inherently more

44:56

collaborative than men. That's.

45:00

I've really embraced that side of it, where certainly in

45:04

DEI or diversity work, or the work we're both in,

45:08

it's not a competitive sport. We all want everybody to win and succeed.

45:12

So it's an inherently more collaborative network of people I'm part of.

45:16

So the collaboration, the helping, the working on each other

45:19

resonated with that more. So I'm more willing to, as I say,

45:23

open myself up, be vulnerable and ask for help than I ever have been in

45:26

my past life. That's really. It's a really interesting

45:30

window, right, that you can see

45:33

this. Different sides of gender expression and identity

45:37

and how that manifests and how people treat you differently. And

45:41

there is a piece of collaboration. I mean, I think when you're not in

45:45

power, you know, you have to collaborate. You know, you can't get things

45:49

the same way you could if you have the power. And so historically,

45:52

marginalised groups just learn to pair up and

45:56

collaborate. And that's funny. I was just reflecting on this with my peer group

46:00

this morning is being a woman. I'm so

46:03

thankful I was born a woman, I really am. And I don't mean

46:07

that, that I don't like men. I just personally love

46:11

collaborating and I love talking about my emotions and having

46:15

deep relationships without the scoffing of I'm whatever.

46:19

I am so thankful, so thankful for that. I hear

46:23

you, I hear you. I've discovered this, I've discovered this.

46:27

This, this is the authentic person inside me reaching out

46:30

and going, where's this been all my life? This is just my natural

46:34

way of being. It was never there before. It was just didn't see it. It

46:38

was all masks by the, the hormones, the testosterone and everything else that

46:41

was masking it up with maleness, if you like, covering all this

46:45

inner self that screaming to get out. Really.

46:49

Yeah. What an interesting perspective. When I think about

46:52

the most marginalised people and not that this is a

46:55

competition, but when you think about trans

46:59

people, just the rates of violence, the rates of oppression, the

47:03

rates of hate, it's extremely high for the trans

47:07

community and I really feel such deep empathy.

47:11

I also understand the fear that straight cisgender people

47:14

have about it because they don't understand it. And you and I were talking in

47:17

the green room about this. You're like, I don't understand it either. You don't have

47:21

to understand it fully to be supportive.

47:24

Lean in. It's okay as, as we were saying, as I said before,

47:28

just to contextualise it for people listening, it's. I don't

47:32

understand what it's like to be trans masculine. I don't understand what it's like to

47:34

be non binary. I don't understand, but I understand. In fact, I don't even understand

47:37

me why or how or what it is. I just know that who

47:41

I am makes sense to me and I can't explain it to you or anybody

47:45

else other than. It's like, it's like trying to imagine a four

47:48

dimensional object in three dimensional space. I

47:52

can't explain that fourth dimension, but I can explain the shadow. I can

47:56

explain how it is likely to manifest itself,

48:00

but not actually draw a picture of it. And it's, it's

48:03

that really, it's trying to explain something, a point of reference that

48:08

I don't have other than I am. And it's a

48:11

strange, it's a strange thing. Yeah, yeah. I think it's just like a human

48:15

condition to want to know why, like how did that happen? I mean, kids do

48:19

this. I learned so much from my kids about curiosity and the

48:23

thing about really all the dimensions of difference that you don't have a lived

48:26

experience or a personal identity connecting to. You don't have to fully understand it.

48:30

You're not going to. Right. Like, it's not your lived experience. So how. I can't

48:34

walk around in brown or black skin to understand how racism really

48:37

manifests. You can see it from my whiteness and know that it's wrong.

48:41

And that's, that's enough. That's. That's okay.

48:45

Pay attention. The one piece of advice I always give people that want to be

48:48

better allies is just keep your radar up. Pay attention. Like, look

48:52

for unfairness, look for injustice and say something when you see

48:55

it. And it doesn't have to be this bold proclamation of you're a racist or

48:59

a sexist. Say, hey, what you mean you said that? Like, I

49:03

don't understand why that's funny. Or hey, have you ever thought about it this

49:06

way? Or I used to think that too. Like, there's really

49:10

easy ways to call people in without shame and

49:13

blame. So just for anyone listening, calling it in is. Calling it out is very

49:17

much a big hands in the air, stop, shout, do not do that

49:21

shaming. Almost calling it out. Calling it in is. It's the

49:25

education side. It's the, the persuasiveness. It's the explaining

49:28

a better way. And people get defensive if they

49:32

called out because they feel shame, they feel confusion where we call in,

49:36

we invite people into the conversation and it's more productive.

49:39

Yep. Yeah. And a great thought leader in that space is Loretta Ross.

49:43

She has a TED Talk and a new book out on calling in comes out

49:47

in February. Listeners. So I'm, I'm excited about that. But major

49:50

difference and I think another course correction that's desperately needed in our

49:54

work. Yeah, I agree. Too many activists

49:58

getting angry and not enough people sitting around the table on the centre ground enlightening

50:02

and having productive conversations like we're having today, which is

50:05

fantastic. Julie. We've been yakking on now for nearly an

50:09

hour and a half. We burnt some of our allocated time up in the green

50:12

room before we started recording, which is a lesson to learn for next time. So

50:16

it's absolutely fascinating. How do people get hold of you for you? You've got some

50:19

inspiration here. Yeah. Yeah. Thank you for such a delightful,

50:23

refreshing conversation. This was really. I'm excited to share this one. So I

50:27

have a Forbes column I post a couple times a week if you're interested, have

50:30

ideas, people I should interview. Always happy to take suggestions there. I

50:34

love Hot Topics, so cheque me out on Forbes. You know Forbes and Julie Kratz

50:38

K-R-A-T-Z. You can find me easily and

50:40

nextpivotpoint.com so

50:43

nextpivotpoint.com tonnes of free resources. We

50:46

way too much content there. So dig in. You

50:50

can contact me through the website. Has all the info there. That's

50:54

it. And well, I'll be making a pitch to be on your podcast and we

50:58

can have have another conversation and you're invited. Already

51:01

invited. We'll just find the time. Can't wait. Can't wait. So thank

51:05

you so much and it's been an absolute pleasure and

51:09

I'm almost sad that the conversation's ending, but you have to rush to another

51:13

meeting. So, yeah, let's call it quits. Thank you, Julie. Part 2 Part

51:16

2 Be Continued Listeners. As we bring

51:20

this conversation to a close, I want to express my

51:24

deepest gratitude to you, our listener, for lending your

51:28

ear and heart to the cause of inclusion.

51:32

Today's discussion struck a chord. Consider subscribing to

51:35

Inclusion Bites and become part of our ever growing

51:39

community driving real change. Share this journey with

51:43

friends, family and colleagues. Let's amplify the voices

51:46

that matter. Got thoughts, stories or a

51:50

vision to share? I'm all ears. Reach out to

51:53

jo.lockwood@seechangehappen.co.uk

51:57

and let's make your voice heard. Until next time,

52:01

this is Joanne Lockwood signing off with a promise to return

52:05

with more enriching narratives that challenge,

52:08

inspire and unite us all. Here's to fostering a more

52:12

inclusive world one episode at a time. Catch you on the next bite.