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where prohibited by law, 18 plus terms

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and conditions apply. Hello, I'm Brian Cox.

2:07

I'm Robin Yates and this is the

2:09

infinite monkey cadaver from the Royal Society

2:12

in London because we are doing the

2:14

great work of of course historical scientific

2:16

institutions. We will be reenacting the illegal

2:18

discussion of a human being from a

2:21

graveyard that we visited. But because this

2:23

is radio you won't see any of

2:25

it. But you can imagine the scene.

2:28

No, today we will be discussing the

2:30

human body in all its baffling complexity.

2:32

Perhaps the most beautiful example of the

2:34

maxim that natural selection doesn't come up

2:37

with the best solution, but the least

2:39

worst. Robin. Why didn't that work? Right,

2:41

actually I do accept it. I am

2:44

very much in terms of like, you

2:46

know, I'm the grey gobbling in a

2:48

cardigan right between the two of us,

2:50

and I can say that I do

2:53

accept as many readers from the radio

2:55

times do, that Brian is almost perfect.

2:57

Except he doesn't have a belly button.

3:00

Make of that what you wish, Adam,

3:02

the angel, Jimmy Carr and you. Yeah,

3:04

I was going to explain that joke

3:06

to the listeners, but I can't now.

3:09

It's not really a joke, it's just,

3:11

I don't know why Jimmy Carr's in

3:13

it. Yeah. Because I think you wouldn't

3:16

believe that he was like a normal

3:18

boy, like you. You don't think him

3:20

as a human boy. You think of

3:22

him as an AI experiment gone wild

3:25

on Channel 4. But the background you

3:27

need to understand that joke is that

3:29

Adam and Eve shouldn't have had... Well

3:32

it's one of the most important questions.

3:34

So that's mainly what we're going to

3:36

be dealing with. Didn't they have navels

3:38

because God poked them to see if

3:41

they were done? I'll tell you what,

3:43

those numbers... taught you

3:45

well and don't you well.

3:48

taught you Is that

3:50

genuinely what you're taught?

3:52

what you're taught? I heard

3:54

that one before, but

3:57

it's just, you

3:59

know, I not as a

4:01

a fact, I don't think we've

4:04

ever had so much I

4:06

don't think we've ever

4:08

had so much

4:10

science in the first

4:13

three minutes of

4:15

the show, let's go.

4:17

get going. Today we're we're discussing

4:19

some of the more peculiar beliefs

4:21

concerning the human body over

4:23

the last 500 years last documented

4:26

in the archives of the Royal

4:28

Society. of Joining us today are

4:30

two eminent professors, an eminent

4:32

librarian, and a winner of All

4:34

librarian, and a winner of all-star family they are.

4:36

I'm multiple-put. Mark physician by I'm a

4:38

physician by background, and I'm and joint

4:40

and joint foreign secretary of

4:42

the Royal Society. One of the One

4:44

of the most ridiculous things that

4:46

humans believed about the body was

4:48

that and udeal peptic ulcers were largely caused

4:50

by stress, that was until that was until

4:52

the mid which time I was by which

4:54

a I was already a consultant, wrong

4:56

and how wrong they were. I'm at

4:58

the Open I'm Helen King, I'm at the Open

5:00

University, and I'm a historian of medicine and

5:03

the body, particularly the female body, body, but hey, we've

5:05

all got bodies. bodies. And I I suppose one of

5:07

the weirdest things people have believed about bodies have

5:09

that if you want to give birth to

5:11

a boy, if you the man has to tie up

5:13

his left testicle, tie and the woman has to

5:15

lie on her right side. So it goes

5:17

right to right. goes If you want to have

5:20

a girl, but who would ever want to do

5:22

that, would you do it the other way to do

5:24

that, you the other way the other way

5:26

ties up mean the woman ties up her

5:28

left? You don't know. You don't know how know!

5:30

you don't know how close you

5:32

are. had was believed that

5:35

women had testicles. seed for women long

5:37

time. Men seed, very long time.

5:39

have a little bit of seed, mix, have a

5:41

little bit of a battle. the wins,

5:43

that's the bit that you get. your

5:45

father's nose. If nose, if your father's

5:47

nose seed was having a particularly good

5:49

day and your mother's nose seed

5:51

wasn't. Four minutes in minutes in and

5:54

we've never had this much

5:56

great science on the show. something. My

5:58

name is Ed Barnes, a a comedian who dropped

6:00

out of a of a BSC and sometime

6:02

in the mid in from Strathclyde University.

6:04

Strathclyde of the things And one of the

6:06

that people used to believe about the human

6:08

body is that to believe but the human body,

6:10

is the they used to believe there was

6:12

forensic value in preserving the eyes

6:14

of murder victims the eyes of you could

6:16

actually, And that you could remove the

6:18

eye and put it the eye and it

6:20

would give you and image of

6:22

the last thing they saw. they saw. It

6:24

did I did actually lead to a

6:26

conviction once because they told because they told

6:29

a German murderer that done it and that

6:31

they saw the image of image of his

6:33

confessed. His name was Fritz His name which

6:35

if you were to make up

6:37

a name you were to make up a name a

6:39

German murderer, you couldn't do better than

6:42

Fritz Angerstein, could you? could you? My name

6:44

name is Keith I'm I'm the librarian of

6:46

the the Royal Society The the weirdest

6:48

thing we all believe about human bodies

6:50

is that they're never gonna wear never

6:52

they'll last forever. out, and they'll last forever. as evidenced

6:55

by Robin. And this is our panel.

6:57

Just before we start, I

6:59

just wanted to, one thing

7:01

that you just, David, just

7:03

talking about before we is we had

7:05

the guy thing that you just David

7:08

just talking about there Which is we

7:10

had the guy proved, this was basically proved

7:12

of this was years ago Wasn't

7:14

it who had proved that the altars weren't

7:16

there? So this was Barry Marshall and

7:18

Robin Warren And Robin Warren was a

7:20

pathologist who saw when he was looking

7:22

down a microscope at at samples, biopsies

7:24

that were taken from people with dyspepsia

7:27

had what what looked like bacteria on

7:29

the surface And they were were and easy to easy

7:31

to see But no one had

7:33

noticed them before And Robin Marshall was a a

7:35

young gastroenterologist in training who became his

7:37

graduate student and basically associated with bacteria. But he then

7:39

then came on to something that

7:41

we may come back to, which is

7:43

he did a self experiment. So

7:45

people wouldn't believe him. They were

7:47

convinced that this was all

7:49

to do with excess acid secretion.

7:51

and there was a nasty operation

7:53

done, which was called vagotomy in palloroplasty, where

7:55

where they cut the nerve

7:57

that was related to the secretion of...

8:00

acid by the stomach and then

8:02

cut open the exit of the

8:04

stomach into the gym so that

8:06

food could get out. And it

8:08

was a horrid operation and of

8:10

course, so he swallowed a culture.

8:12

of helical back to pylorae, which

8:14

was the bacterium, from two culture

8:16

plates. And lo and behold, nine

8:18

days later, he felt really grotty.

8:20

He had summer cake. He started

8:22

vomiting in the morning. And he

8:24

had taken the precaution of checking

8:26

that the bacteria was sensitive to

8:28

an antibiotic called metronidazole. And his

8:30

wife told him he bloody well

8:32

better take some metronidazole. And the

8:34

biopsis did show that he'd got

8:36

gastric inflammation inflammation. Nobel Prize, that's

8:38

absolutely right. So there's advice to

8:40

anyone who's, no it isn't. Keith,

8:42

you've been scouring the archive for

8:44

us. So if we go back

8:46

right to the start of the

8:48

Royal Society, what are the earliest

8:50

records here that we have that

8:52

document the human body? Well, a

8:54

lot of the early fellows of

8:56

the Royal Society were physicians, so

8:58

they were quite interested in medical

9:00

matters. but they also collected earlier

9:02

books on medicine. And we have

9:04

a flap book over there, which

9:06

is one from 1638, by Johan

9:08

Remelin. And this is where you

9:10

lift up the flaps, paper flaps,

9:12

and explore the human body as

9:14

if you were dissecting it. bit

9:16

by bit and we have here

9:18

a man and a woman together

9:20

so you can compare the differences.

9:22

Helen you've got that right in

9:24

front of you so do you

9:26

want to is Helen allowed to

9:28

look under the flaps? Yeah well

9:30

there's a hazard warning in that

9:32

you may be ambushed by the

9:34

devil while you do. Yeah. Thanks

9:36

for that. So this is the

9:38

most beautiful object. It's quite a

9:40

large page. It's got black and

9:42

white printing on it. And it's

9:44

got a man's body and a

9:46

woman's body facing each other. Various

9:48

organs sort of scattered around the

9:50

place. And at the bottom.

9:52

There's a lower

9:54

torso of a

9:56

woman and you

9:58

can lift up

10:00

all these different

10:02

flats. This book

10:04

is so flappy. Sometimes

10:07

you've got nine levels of flaps. Just keep

10:09

going, woo. And it's that thing about

10:11

what's happening inside the body. It's all very

10:13

secret. Before MRIs and X -rays and things,

10:15

how do you know what's going on

10:17

inside? You get a flap book. It's

10:20

basically like where's spot

10:22

where's spleen You've got it.

10:24

So, So, yes, we've

10:26

got here the devil

10:28

posed, can you guess,

10:30

I think you can, over the

10:33

female genitalia? I heard

10:35

he spends a lot of time there. so when

10:37

you lift that up, then you have a

10:39

little look and you've got a little clothing.

10:41

and then, ooh, naughty bits. Oh,

10:44

more naughty bits, Worms, ooh. innards,

10:46

and and you just keep

10:48

going. so many exciting layers.

10:50

But it's covered initially

10:52

by the devil. In

10:55

terms of anatomical accuracy, but

10:57

in the devil aside. how

10:59

accurate or otherwise is this?

11:01

It's not bad because it's the

11:03

previous century, the 16th century, where

11:05

they really get into dissection

11:08

as a medical technique, and by

11:10

this stage there have been

11:12

some amazing anatomists. who've

11:14

come up with all sorts of things.

11:16

So, I mean, 1559. Rialdo

11:19

Colombo, or I've just discovered the clitoris.

11:21

For example, yeah. Yeah, You're right, that

11:23

wasn't anything to do with his research.

11:25

And was about 65 years old and

11:27

his wife was furious it had taken

11:29

that long. Just because someone had to

11:31

do that joke, can I do apologise? Oh,

11:34

thank you, you shared it beautifully. So he

11:36

discovered the clitoris and he went, there's this

11:38

funny little rectangle and if you touch it,

11:40

even with your little finger, it's a bit

11:42

personal, isn't it? The woman goes wild. and

11:45

seed flows in all directions. It's back

11:47

to that female seed that comes out, the

11:49

female testicles that we don't believe in

11:51

anymore. So big moment, but it's not just

11:53

the clitoris, it's everything else. So In

11:56

1543, Andreas Basilius, one of

11:58

the most famous anatomists... in the

12:00

of anatomy, of published a huge book

12:02

in which he went through the whole

12:04

human body, the found all sorts body, found

12:06

little bits of finger that

12:08

only very few people have of

12:10

finger that existed just saying have,

12:12

looked everywhere couldn't find it,

12:14

but, just know, and looked everywhere, not

12:16

an find it, but, it?

12:19

Historically. problem, is it?

12:21

Historically. And what he did was he did

12:23

a a different way of exposing the

12:25

body so the having flaps rather than having had

12:28

a corpse. a corpse. Sort

12:30

of walking through the omburons of his

12:32

town in Italy, the town in

12:34

Italy, all the Italian countryside, all very

12:36

beautiful. And as the corpse walks, each

12:38

picture has a bit more falling off. So

12:41

fall off and of fall off and his skin

12:43

falls off. And is is just a load

12:45

of bones walking through the countryside. So

12:47

it's So of another way of doing,

12:49

let's go inside the body. go This way,

12:51

body. the way, the flat book you're actually looking

12:54

in and you're doing it. You, the

12:56

reader. reader, are are lifting the flaps. It's exciting.

12:58

exciting. So at at this point when that

13:00

was done, wasn't there this theory that women would

13:02

just, because as well as the seed theory, I read as well

13:04

as the they theory, just I read somewhere that

13:06

they were basically just considered to be

13:08

the equivalent of a barn, would go that it

13:10

was the man's sperm would go inside

13:12

the lady and then it would grow into

13:14

a baby it at all. had nothing to do

13:16

with it at all. No, that's one of

13:18

the theories of There are lots of

13:20

theories around, one no one really knew. that's

13:23

one that's one theory. Women contribute absolutely

13:25

nothing. nothing. And of course, wounds always being

13:27

weird. So the wombs wander around the

13:29

body. Most of of have thought

13:31

they did. thought they did. If they wander the

13:33

body, but then you find out there

13:35

are ligaments anchoring them to the pelvis,

13:37

you go, to the but they're special go, oh

13:39

ligaments. special, stretchy can still go So up, but

13:41

they get pulled back again. So up,

13:43

of myths about the female body that

13:45

lasted from the ancient Greeks into the

13:48

17th and the centuries. did that

13:50

come from though? Why do people think the 17th

13:52

was moving around the body? centuries. Because women

13:54

were of of seen as unstable

13:56

so so many ways, mentally unstable,

13:58

but also physically unstable. even their wounds

14:01

wouldn't stay in position. Was it to

14:03

do with the menstrual cycle and not

14:05

understanding of that, or was it something

14:07

else? It's partly the menstrual cycle. I

14:10

mean, actually, the menstrual cycle has been

14:12

seen as a really valuable thing in

14:14

women's history, in the history of women's

14:17

medicine, because it's supposed to give women

14:19

actually a health advantage, because you've got

14:21

an extra orifice, which is letting stuff,

14:23

or getting stuck somewhere. having an extra

14:26

hole to let it out was actually

14:28

a great thing. So women with a

14:30

serious fever were considered possibly more likely

14:33

to get better than men were. Well,

14:35

moving on, I think we should move

14:37

on to an account. Like a womb

14:40

and move on. I think we should

14:42

move on to an account of a

14:44

fork, put up the anus. Oh, I

14:46

think so. Which was by Robert Payne.

14:49

Case study. From 1725. Can I ask

14:51

Pete, why do you choose this particular

14:53

case study? It's the original I slipped

14:56

in the shower and found something of

14:58

their story. Every emergency room has one,

15:00

you know, but this is an 18th

15:02

century version, which I just think is

15:05

fantastic. An account, I love it, goes

15:07

straight to the point with the heading,

15:09

an account of a fork, put up

15:12

the anus. That was afterwards drawn out

15:14

through the buttock. James Bishop, an apprentice

15:16

to a ship carpenter in great Yarmouth,

15:18

about 19 years of age, had violent

15:21

pains in the lower part of the

15:23

abdomen for six or seven months. It

15:25

did not appear to be any species

15:28

of the colic. He sometimes made bloody

15:30

urine, which induced me to believe it

15:32

might be a stone in the bladder.

15:35

He was very little, really. At no

15:37

point, when he's got all these things

15:39

wrong with him, has he said, well,

15:41

I did once put a fork of

15:44

my bono. apprentice to a ship carpenter

15:46

would still know there might be a

15:48

connection between his severe... I don't know

15:51

with the ship stuff. I'm thinking... a

15:53

a bunch sailors locking

15:55

about, that he didn't realize he

15:57

didn't when he he

16:00

was asleep when he

16:02

was drunk one

16:04

night, someone up a

16:07

fork up there. even

16:09

he didn't even, he was totally unaware of

16:11

the foot but only at the beginning of

16:13

the story, so this may the story have a

16:15

revelation. well may appeared in the left buttock

16:17

on or near the gluteus maximus, two or

16:19

three inches from the verge of the

16:21

anus. the verge of the my band at

16:23

college, band at college a little sloping upwards A

16:25

A short time after after he voided

16:27

by way of the by day

16:29

for some time. day for some time, very

16:32

scientific at some time. The tumor

16:34

broke, I suspect, of the fistula a

16:36

could not get the probe

16:38

not the of the the the

16:40

rectum shortly after. prongs of

16:42

a fork appeared through the

16:44

orifice of the sore. So

16:47

it just poked out through

16:49

his poked out through his his buttock. And basically,

16:51

they made an incision and pulled

16:53

it out. But he said

16:55

he didn't feel any pain pain

16:57

at the 19-year-old it started to

16:59

come out again. again. But you've

17:01

why he did it, is, he was

17:03

was in other In other words, he

17:05

was constipated. So So this was a

17:07

bit of self -therapy, allegedly. And

17:10

why is this account in

17:12

the philosophical of the to the Royal

17:14

Society? Was this scientific value? So I

17:16

mean, I I think in the

17:18

early days, a a lot of

17:20

the reports in the philosophical transaction

17:22

to the Royal Society Royal case

17:25

studies of things that were

17:27

interesting and odd. odd. And in fact, you

17:29

know, know, not not particularly... interesting these

17:31

days, but you still you

17:33

enormous amount from single rare

17:35

things happening. things happening. to be

17:37

submitted as letters, which, if

17:39

they were interesting, which were then

17:41

published in philosophical transactions. published

17:43

And the idea that progress was

17:45

made idea that progress was made by chance things

17:48

that happened, happened, that's quite quite central

17:50

to the early history of medicine. Well,

17:52

and to this this day, actually. So

17:55

I'll give you a specific example. This

17:57

book and oops the the come away in

17:59

my hand. but actually, you know,

18:01

just to describe the, what is

18:03

that? What is that book?

18:05

Honestly, he wrote it like that

18:07

before. What is it? What

18:09

was it? So the cover was

18:11

already off -marked. You're okay there.

18:14

So this is and Observations

18:16

on the Gastric Juice by William

18:18

Beaumont. It's an American book

18:20

from 1834 and has a very

18:22

curious story about a fur

18:24

trapper Absolutely. So I'll tell you

18:26

all about him. this chap,

18:28

William Beaumont, who's a surgeon. encountered

18:30

a guy called Alexis St. Martin and

18:32

he was a voyageur and the

18:34

Aegean in the middle he wasn't a

18:36

voyageur and they were the people

18:38

who worked for licensed fur traders in

18:40

Canada. Anyway he had the misfortune

18:42

to be shot with a musket in

18:44

1822 and was extraordinarily lucky to

18:47

survive because it basically made a bloody

18:49

great hole in his stomach. Initially

18:51

whenever he ate he had a very

18:53

stormy recovery. The food will all

18:55

come out through this between the skin

18:57

and the stomach but after a

18:59

while the food started to be.

19:01

just disappear normally and digested And

19:03

so this gave William Beaumont the

19:05

perfect number of one experiment

19:07

where he could have access to

19:09

this guy's stomach. And he

19:11

did an incredible series of experiments.

19:13

The ethics of all of

19:16

this doesn't really bear a consideration,

19:18

but what he would do

19:20

is he would put food on

19:22

silk and put it in

19:24

the stomach and then investigate what

19:26

happened to it. And he

19:28

he every experimental tool imaginable. so

19:31

On August 1st, 1825, introduced through

19:33

the perforation into the stomach

19:35

the following articles of diet suspended

19:37

by a silk string. this

19:39

a piece of high seasoned ala

19:41

-mode beef, a piece of raw

19:44

salted fat pork, a piece

19:46

of raw salted lean beef, a

19:48

piece of stale bread, and

19:50

a bunch of raw cabbage. And

19:52

then he now. pulled

19:55

all this stuff out to see what had happened

19:57

to it. and so at 1 o 'clock an

19:59

hour later. The cabbage and the bread

20:01

were about half digested, but the meat

20:03

was unchanged. He put it back in the

20:05

stomach. At two o 'clock, he pulled them

20:07

out again. He found the cabbage, bread,

20:09

pork, and boiled beef was all clean and

20:11

digested and had gone from the string.

20:13

At two o 'clock, the alamode beef was

20:15

partly digested and I could go on. But

20:17

the smell and taste of the fluids

20:19

of the stomach was slightly rancid and the

20:22

boy complained of some pain and uneasiness

20:24

at the breast and he returned them again.

20:26

And the next day he said, well,

20:28

I'll give him some Calamel That was mercurous

20:30

chloride, mercury is terribly poison,

20:32

uses a purgative. But I

20:34

mean, he did some extraordinary

20:37

things because he basically licked

20:39

the stomach. So he sampled

20:41

the stomach with his tongue

20:43

and found that before he'd

20:45

had any food, it was

20:48

all right. But the second

20:50

he put any food in

20:52

the stomach, it became

20:54

acid. mean, he really was an extraordinary

20:56

experimenter. He sent a pint of this

20:58

chat fluid across the Atlantic to Baselius

21:00

in Sweden, the great chemist. And I

21:02

don't think I got a reply, actually.

21:06

But was an astonishing

21:08

example of what you

21:10

can learn. from an extraordinary adverse

21:12

event. The ability to sew the guy

21:14

up was, we had it, right? It

21:16

could have been sewn up. He could

21:19

have been sewn up. That's certainly true,

21:21

but I mean. Did he decide, was

21:23

he? I mean, I know you didn't

21:25

know the guy, but I think that,

21:27

think that, but is there any record

21:29

of how voluntarily he, you know, decided

21:31

to knot himself up? think he was,

21:33

I think there were economic grounds, which

21:35

basically meant that the chap, you know,

21:37

didn't have any income. And so basically,

21:39

he took him into service. It It

21:42

sounds like the old magician thing, doesn't

21:44

it? It's all that silk thread. now,

21:46

flags of the world, oh, and an

21:48

old sausage as well. know, it's just.

21:50

That's true about brain injury as well,

21:52

isn't it? lot of psychiatric study has

21:54

been done just because of what part

21:56

of the brain has been damaged in

21:58

an accident or something. Or stroke. I mean, that's

22:00

exactly right in the the 19th century how the nervous

22:02

nervous system mapped to different functions

22:04

in the body could be mapped by

22:06

either an injury or a tumor sometimes a

22:09

stroke because you knew exactly where it

22:11

was in the brain where it then

22:13

you knew brain, part of the body

22:15

didn't work. I remember reading about, think

22:17

it was work. I remember his name? Galen.

22:19

thing. Is it it was only when he

22:22

was his name? gladiators when been injured treating gladiators

22:24

had always thought the heart was

22:26

the thinking area, is that Yeah, that

22:28

And then he found out. he thought

22:30

hang on the minute not so

22:32

sure because it seems that anyone

22:34

who's had half of their brain

22:36

eaten by a lion then behaving really

22:39

erratically a minute, I'm not so sure that again

22:41

it's this kind of quite grotesque

22:43

but at the same time going

22:45

on I'm just gonna make a

22:47

couple of notes. moving through a the

22:49

history of medicine So we move

22:51

through we've got a series of of

22:53

medicine so we are detailing inoculations initially

22:55

to which are detailing inoculations initially to the smallpox in what

22:58

right Well idea of inoculating against

23:00

which is a major

23:02

killer. and was brought

23:04

to England by Lady

23:06

Mary Mary Wortley it comes

23:08

from the the Ottoman. That's right.

23:10

from Constantinople. yeah. So

23:12

the women there would would have

23:14

effectively smallpox parties where they

23:16

would have smallpox matter

23:19

taken from survivors. put it in a

23:21

put it in cut your

23:23

your arm, bind nutshell to that,

23:25

that. They'd introduce smallpox matter

23:27

to the arm. the arm. and

23:29

this this began to take off

23:31

in England. Lady Mary promoted the

23:33

idea, including to the aristocracy,

23:36

we and we have some

23:38

of the records here. She

23:40

inoculated her own daughter, first

23:42

of all, a a brave thing

23:44

to do. And after after a

23:46

few prisoners began on the English

23:48

royal family, which is rather

23:50

amazing, know, the children raw family.

23:52

I love casual casual prisoners.

23:54

Newgate prisoners. It was Only

23:57

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Please. And was there

26:34

any there any understanding of the

26:36

by which this was which this was

26:38

offering protection against the disease at

26:40

that time? I really, the I

26:42

mean studies, so I mean they knew it was mean

26:44

they knew it was specific challenge

26:46

did challenge people with smallpox

26:48

afterwards and found that it wasn't,

26:50

they were protected. But I mean Durian

26:52

was astounding because he really

26:54

was the first rigorous quantitative

26:57

scientist and so and so he answered

26:59

questions. Firstly, thing you quite like

27:01

to know is is, the

27:03

risk of dying? of dying had

27:05

been inoculated. Because this was

27:07

not completely safe. not And so

27:09

in 845 inoculations, 17 people died, that

27:11

2%. This This would not pass the

27:13

test for a modern vaccine. then he

27:15

wanted to know what was the risk of an to

27:17

know what was the risk of

27:20

an dying person dying of natural smallpox,

27:22

which is a really critical question.

27:24

And actually, and they used they use of of

27:26

mortality for that, they found that

27:28

just over 8%. So so one in

27:30

12 of all deaths at the

27:32

time were to the smallpox. So this important

27:34

cause of death. cause of death. he asked

27:37

the question, what's the risk of someone

27:39

who contracts smallpox of as a result?

27:41

And that was over 16%. dying as

27:43

a result? mean this really did reduce

27:45

your risk of dying did reduce your nevertheless if

27:47

you were one of the unfortunate ones that

27:49

did one of much consolation to you or

27:51

your family It's interesting that the royal royal

27:53

family to you or your family. It's those kind

27:55

of odds, because we have

27:57

a predisposition as humans, don't we?

27:59

we? to not really understand statistics in that

28:01

sense. The The reduction of risk, it feels

28:03

like the best thing to do is just try

28:06

and... It's a risky a risky thing to be

28:08

inoculated at the time. You're absolutely right. But

28:10

mean, at the time, they were inoculated. They

28:12

had no idea that it was it was 2%.

28:14

You know, they are on about the

28:16

first two pages of that volume.

28:18

You find You find Princess Princess Caroline,

28:20

who were two of the daughters

28:23

of the daughters II, I think. I think. I

28:25

think also we kind of of underestimate the

28:27

fear of smallpox. I

28:29

mean, mean, Mary Walter

28:31

lost to brother

28:33

to smallpox. She

28:35

was a society beauty. Her

28:37

complexion was completely ruined by

28:39

it. thing, It was a

28:42

dangerous, dangerous thing, big killer. if

28:44

they thought it would to take difference

28:46

they thought it was were make

28:48

the difference about their especially concerned

28:50

about their children. And

28:52

that individual has to to be important

28:54

because as Keith Keith says, you know, Lady brother

28:56

died of it. died of it, that

28:59

thing. thing. is is enough to make

29:01

you think, okay, I'll I'll take this risk. Is there something

29:03

there something as well, looking at these, know,

29:05

it it feels to me that sometimes

29:07

there's a very short memory that we

29:09

can go can there are people alive today

29:11

alive today saw their friends sometimes die of

29:13

diseases that have either been eradicated or

29:16

almost eradicated. And now in the 21st

29:18

century, during during cetera, we've seen a

29:20

lot of kind of an a lot of movement.

29:23

It feels to me there is

29:25

a real pragmatic thing behind knowing

29:27

these stories, of knowing what life

29:29

was like. I think that's absolutely

29:31

right. I mean, Fever was something that have

29:33

thought have gone away. This was a

29:36

major killer killer until the middle of

29:38

the of the 19th century when was

29:40

discovered. But Scotland Fever is is beginning

29:42

to come back back as resistance

29:44

rises. seeing seeing infections that

29:46

people had forgotten about. Now, Now

29:48

you then you mentioned -rays. We've got

29:51

quite a few a few... remarkable

29:53

So of records of early

29:55

x -rays. I should say it

29:58

was discovered say, 1895. 1895 is... We

30:00

had a discussion about how to

30:02

pronounce, I'd say, say, Röntgen, I would

30:04

say, but you... Röntgen? Röntgen, yeah.

30:06

So 1895, one of the seminal

30:08

discoveries in the history of particle

30:10

physics actually, it led to the

30:12

revolution in atomic physics, not long.

30:14

But actually, there's a wonderful photograph

30:17

here, which was taken, I think,

30:19

at a party here, at the

30:21

Rolls -Sitie, a Rolls -Sitie soiree, not

30:23

long after the discovery, 1896, where

30:25

there's this beautiful x -ray of

30:27

a hand, which, again, is the

30:29

cavalier sort of know x -rays now are

30:31

rather carefully controlled things as we understand them

30:33

but this is only a few months

30:36

after the discovery of these things and they're

30:38

at a party taking x -rays of each

30:40

other. Yeah, so that why a lot

30:42

of the paintings around here from that period

30:44

everyone seems to have a hook? So

30:47

could you describe some of the

30:49

the history of x -rays which is

30:51

relatively recent. We're coming into the turn

30:53

of the 20th century now. These

30:55

photographs were taken by Alan Archibald Campbell

30:57

Swinton who's a very interesting electrical

30:59

engineer. he pretty much predicted how

31:01

television was going to work

31:03

before anybody had invented a television.

31:06

He'd been a photographer since

31:08

he was a schoolboy, He was

31:10

interested in new photographic techniques.

31:12

So when X -ray photography came

31:14

along, he was the first in

31:16

England to make X -ray photographs.

31:20

and at a Royal Society

31:22

soiree, he took photographs of great

31:24

figures, the great scientists of the day.

31:26

And they also took pictures of

31:28

hidden items. So for example, they'd take

31:30

an x -ray photograph of a purse.

31:32

So you could see the coins

31:34

inside without opening the purse. So So

31:36

they... It was a party trick

31:38

at time. It's a party trick. yeah,

31:41

yeah. Haven't you brought Mark a

31:43

particularly personal... have, yes. I have. I'll

31:45

pass it round. and If you

31:47

hold it up to light, you might

31:49

be able to guess what it

31:51

is. But for the audience, it's...

31:53

So is an x -ray of me,

31:55

and as a medical student I

31:58

was sort of desperate, Gets... involved

32:00

in research and publications. and And

32:02

in fact, in volunteered for this

32:04

study, which was a study done

32:06

at Central Middlesex Hospital, Central measuring gut

32:08

transit time. In other words, the

32:10

length of time that food took

32:12

to get from your mouth food

32:15

the other end. from I can see

32:17

that there's no fork up see that

32:19

there's no fork up here. But what you see

32:21

see got got lots of little radiopaque

32:23

plastic markers. And so what they

32:25

gave us was you would would swallow

32:27

with your breakfast a little packet of

32:29

plastic markers. markers and basically everything that

32:31

came out the other end the days

32:33

afterwards. afterwards. And then they would would -ray

32:36

the stools, so these So those are

32:38

my stools. stools. And it was it was

32:40

actually a rather hairy time because

32:42

this was in 1976 when the IRA the

32:44

IRA were bombing London had to you

32:46

had to sort of take these

32:48

things to Central Middlesex Hospital on

32:50

the tube in a bloody the tube

32:52

in flask full of dry ice

32:55

which looked extremely sinister. sinister.

32:57

It smell too bad because it

32:59

was frozen. it was frozen. And I found the paper when

33:01

the paper and I was looking at

33:03

it and I got my name on

33:05

the paper. So what did you find out?

33:07

Because now we've looked at your looked at

33:09

it's the first time that's really happened It

33:11

is the this show. So with all the

33:13

plastic markers, on was it always breakfast,

33:15

first of all? Yes, it was breakfast. it

33:17

always you should worry about recovery. all? Yes, it

33:19

they didn't tell me at the time

33:21

is they didn't get them quite all

33:23

back. So I suspect there may still

33:25

be one hiding in my appendix. tell me

33:27

at the time is they just worrying about, them a

33:29

all back. was thinking suspect they may I tried

33:31

some of your soup yesterday. was appendix. I'm just...

33:33

Well, I've never said this before, but some

33:36

of them ended up in my mother's

33:38

freezer for a while. She was pretty

33:40

She was pretty unkeen. like, was like, I'm having some of

33:42

this black pudding with me me breakfast. Helen, if you

33:44

ever if you ever found yourself in in

33:46

an experiment, then think, then do you

33:49

know what, you know sometimes what? look at me

33:51

as look at I'm at parties, but I'm

33:53

just doing research. I'm just doing but have to

33:55

say, I did break the say I did break in

33:57

bow transit time. time.

34:00

at a clinic so I'm just gonna say

34:02

going say, may think you've got it you've got a

34:04

record. broke a record. So, um, bowel

34:06

transit time. Yes. Yeah. OK, so so

34:08

this was with barium meal. Yeah. So it's very

34:10

specific. It's the a point at which your

34:12

barium meal goes from your tummy tummy, the

34:14

point where it's where into your gut. gut. I

34:16

wouldn't like to say how wouldn't like to say

34:18

how fast it was, the but they did

34:20

say what are we talking I've broken the record. many Do you

34:22

what I mean? It was pretty a rough idea, where a minute, meals

34:24

and barium are we talking Sorry, it's such was you know, one lot goes in

34:26

many minutes the bottom, and then they It was pretty quick. that

34:28

they can't get you have this thing they can't get the barium too. So

34:31

they can't get and barium they can't get the barium, so a great

34:33

topic. so they can't get the barium, so they know, one goes in

34:35

the top, one the goes in the bottom, can't get the barium

34:37

too. in the middle that they can't get the get

34:39

the barium too. So they can't get the busy too. So they can't out

34:41

at what point they have to do that. to

34:43

do only record I've ever broken, I'm not a...

34:45

ever America, when someone would say on

34:47

a show, say on a got the fastest the fastest

34:50

bow People would have gone crazy for

34:52

that. I know. But They've know. here I we are

34:54

in London going, yeah, whatever. whatever. I'm very

34:56

London I'm very impressed. I I mean, I

34:58

have a small certificate for swimming, which

35:00

is sort for swimming, that at the same

35:02

time? Just so you know, your bowel

35:05

transit while you were swimming was slightly

35:07

slower, know, we've had to close the

35:09

pool down. you were swimming, was given that you

35:11

brought up animals, and I don't know

35:13

if that's the right thing to the pool

35:15

down. Given that you brought up... Do

35:17

you about about tobacco enamels?

35:20

Yes, tobacco it's a thing. it's a thing.

35:22

So in tobacco was only discovered

35:24

to be a poison a I

35:26

think in, I think, something like that.

35:28

It's late. It's late. so so then,

35:30

tobacco had an exciting session in the

35:32

in the where it was considered to be the answer it

35:35

was considered to be the answer to

35:37

pretty So So actually that guy with the

35:39

fork and the constipation could have been

35:41

done with done with a. tobacco enema. It

35:43

It was used for gynecological conditions,

35:45

was used for headaches. The

35:47

idea was that tobacco, up your bum,

35:49

would warm your insides and sort of

35:51

make everything feel a lot better. Well,

35:54

and sort of make everything feel

35:56

a lot better. Was this It

35:58

was was blown. and just

36:00

be very careful with that.

36:03

Once they just be very careful

36:05

with that. Once they

36:07

got into this in the 18th century,

36:09

they then actually to actually get it

36:11

up there. So you didn't have

36:13

to do it yourself, do it which obviously

36:15

is a lot obviously is a

36:17

lot less risky but the

36:20

royal humane The Royal Humane

36:22

Society, which was very keen on

36:24

the risks of people drowning,

36:26

The Royal Humane Society really supported

36:28

the tobacco enema in the case of

36:30

people who who to have drowned to

36:32

bring them back to life. back

36:34

It's all that warming thing. So

36:37

they even put up along the

36:39

up along the Thames little -to -do -if -you -find someone drowning

36:41

which included tobacco tobacco enemas. to

36:43

mouth is a considerable improvement,

36:45

I think, I many for many lifeguards. Yeah,

36:47

I I think you're right,

36:49

there's progress progress of the other artifacts

36:51

we've got, we haven't talked about,

36:53

is talks slides of goat of

36:55

goat tissue. from 1905. That's right, I'll

36:57

right, I'll have them here. So

36:59

this is, is... This is an goat

37:01

tissue, not goat of all

37:04

time. No, this is

37:06

a goat is a these tissue, so

37:08

these slides. slides,

37:10

with... He says, go to them. These

37:13

are part of the experiments run

37:15

by John Scott Haldane, who's a

37:17

fellow of the Royal Society. And

37:20

he was very interested in atmospheric

37:22

gases and the effect on the human

37:24

body. He did some

37:26

very interesting work on

37:28

miners' diseases and how gases

37:30

affect miners. He

37:33

did some work on

37:35

bad smells in Parliament, make

37:37

own own jokes about that.

37:39

why I like him is I

37:41

like him is because

37:44

he applied this kind

37:46

of scientific research on

37:48

behalf of the Royal

37:50

Navy. he did have

37:52

a he did have a

37:54

knack of experimenting on goats,

37:56

hence the slide of bits of

37:59

to see. So he put... and chambers chambers

38:01

and to different pressures.

38:03

to different he also did this

38:05

with his son, this with his son, JBS

38:07

If the scientist wants to run

38:09

an experiment, he usually just reaches

38:11

he the nearest small child in

38:13

those days. small child in .B .S. Haldane

38:15

was was at 13 old, put into

38:17

a Royal Navy diving suit

38:19

and suit and amongst other things, in

38:22

order to research the effects

38:24

of different pressures and different

38:26

depths on the human body.

38:28

And didn't he end up

38:30

with a perforated perforated air drum? Or JBS

38:32

did later, He continued the researchers the

38:34

the World War, War, again behalf

38:36

of the Royal Navy, Royal Navy,

38:38

father's research, research. And yeah, he managed

38:40

to perforate and all kinds of

38:42

things in pressure chambers, and

38:45

he could blow smoke out of

38:47

his eardrums, apparently. This is of

38:50

You couldn't combine that with the...

38:52

enema, could he? this is party trick. He

38:54

couldn't would be quite quite need with

38:56

the enema, could he? son just pretend

38:58

not to hear him when he

39:00

called him? Perforate Son, come here.

39:02

I need you. That's the just

39:04

pretend not to a word him when he

39:06

think it's worth, you know, Son,

39:08

the end, but it's worth to

39:10

be flexing. We've heard some

39:12

remarkable stories, but this is this

39:14

how we acquired knowledge, about knowledge

39:16

about physiology, knowledge about medicine. Should we

39:18

we we feel guilty about it

39:20

then? So it's uncovering the the secrets

39:22

of nature looking at looking at really

39:24

informative individuals in the case

39:26

of medicine who can tell you

39:28

something that you wouldn't discover

39:30

by any other And frankly, that happens

39:32

to this day and one of

39:35

the powers of modern genetics

39:37

is that is that often very

39:39

unfortunate people who've got mutations

39:41

in particular genes. genes. Studying them tells

39:43

you, and them only you, them, not only good

39:45

for them because what's wrong, but it wrong, but

39:47

it tells you what the of the

39:49

genes are. is still is still an absolutely

39:51

fundamental principle of medical research. we You

39:54

know, when we look back, so we've

39:56

heard some very unusual stuff and it's

39:58

easy, isn't it, to it in historical context. and

40:00

say all these people didn't

40:02

know anything it was know

40:04

of barbaric kind now we And now

40:06

we know everything But you said Mark,

40:08

there were 1980s. We're doing rather doing rather

40:11

strange things and and getting

40:13

it completely wrong So the question would

40:15

be I suppose do you think

40:17

it's still possible that we're

40:19

looking at some medical conditions

40:21

and doing things now which

40:24

in in... 50 years time people will be, we'll probably

40:26

still be here on radio for having this discussion. You

40:28

will, you don't grow old. No belly buttons. And were

40:30

they doing that for in 2024? 2024?

40:32

I I think it's pretty certain certain

40:34

to be the case. going mean there's

40:36

so much we still don't know much we

40:38

still don't know. And when it actually comes

40:40

to the mind. comes to the

40:43

treating people who have quite severe mental

40:45

illness without any really good understanding of

40:47

how cognition works. So works. think there's gonna

40:49

be lots of examples like that where

40:51

people will look back and say, what

40:53

did they think they were doing? and say,

40:55

what did they think me, doing? people say now, that

40:57

get a lot of, me, on my

41:00

day, we didn't have food allergies of, intolerances.

41:02

we No, have you just had sickly children

41:04

you just had sickly never put on ways and

41:06

never made it past the age of

41:08

15. know what I and mean? But

41:10

it was of 15, you know because mean? identify just because

41:12

we didn't doesn't mean we've just invented them

41:15

or made them up now. now. It's

41:17

great. my day, we never had

41:19

these things because we were all

41:21

dead, we were all dead. Yeah. But it's also the it's

41:23

also the case that over change

41:25

over time as well particularly infectious

41:27

diseases know, each so lives You know,

41:29

each generation lives in the context of the

41:31

I of their time. mean, we haven't talked

41:34

much about the environment course in disease. disease.

41:36

And so the pattern of disease does

41:38

actually change over time. change over time. I suppose

41:40

in my experience, I'm that generation where

41:42

we all where we and tonsils not because you

41:44

did. out because you did. We all

41:46

did and now we don't you know

41:48

so there's a simple change. I change a

41:50

I think there's a whole area that

41:52

we haven't discovered at all much about

41:54

which is menstruation I mean it's kind

41:56

of of everyone here a woman a

41:59

done it. done it. But we don't really don't

42:01

really know much about. can do with what

42:03

you can do with menstrual blood. So

42:05

there's only recently there's been some work

42:07

on testing menstrual blood for diabetes. So rather

42:09

than having than having to have a

42:11

blood test, you can just test woman's menstrual

42:13

blood. Wow. Wow. That's suggesting That's suggesting

42:15

something. completely different from the history of

42:17

menstrual blood. which blood, which as

42:19

some it some weird weird, phenomenal

42:22

stuff was just was just disgusting and

42:24

had all sorts of impurities in

42:26

it. Actually, it could be the

42:28

future of medicine for many people.

42:30

many for you, what do you

42:32

think is the thing do look back

42:34

is the years time and go, look

42:36

goodness, we believe that? I think

42:38

the idea that a male body

42:40

with a large degree of muscle

42:42

mass and low amount of body

42:44

fat was, amount aesthetically pleasing. was somehow aesthetically pleasing.

42:46

I think we should should return to the

42:48

idea of the pale, slight person

42:50

with just a little bit of

42:52

a pot. of a being the ideal. ideal.

42:54

And apparently, if you tie up

42:56

your left testicle, that doesn't

42:58

prove score, that does all the chance of that with

43:00

that And with that advice. Thank you to our

43:02

you to our Mark Mark Professor King,

43:05

Ed Byrne and Keith Keith Moore. All

43:17

right, we always ask the audience a

43:19

question a question and today's we ask them what

43:21

is the most unexpected thing you found

43:24

out about your body? thing you got

43:26

there, Brian? out about your body? What have

43:28

you got there by I at

43:30

university. piece by And it

43:32

might still be there. and it

43:34

might still be there. are the chances

43:36

chances of? Could it it still be

43:38

there? Should it not have come

43:40

out? out? It largely corroded away. um...

43:43

Maybe human metallage not one of

43:45

my topics. my topics. help. might help. I've

43:47

got, I visit the of langerands.

43:49

of of langer hands. Langer hands.

43:51

Yeah, in the brain. No,

43:53

they're, Well, they're in the

43:55

pancreas. Oh, sorry. sorry. Oh, no, but

43:58

Bryan's, Brian's wonder a lot like. his

44:00

wound. He's all over the shot. It's

44:02

where you're entering. Any of the ones

44:04

that there's some weird names like that

44:06

in the brain aren't there? Yes there

44:09

is something I'm not sure it's gonna

44:11

come to me but anyway yeah no

44:13

lying hands is where the incident comes

44:15

from. Ed. Somebody called David Hastings has

44:18

simply said in answer the question what

44:20

is the most unexpected thing you found

44:22

out about your body they've just answered

44:24

Prince Andrew's sweat glands. This is lovely.

44:26

This is from Callum who says, despite

44:29

my worst efforts, it can still work.

44:31

And that is, and Callum says, it'll

44:33

be 80 next July. It's very literal.

44:35

Also says the bowel transit, oh sorry,

44:38

yeah. Worse you got? Very literal from

44:40

Paul. What's the most unexpected thing you

44:42

found about your body? My keys and

44:44

my wallet. Somebody has said that they

44:46

found out that they were a clone

44:49

of Brian Cox. And then they literally

44:51

put a dot, dot, dot, and then

44:53

the Scottish actor! Exclamation. Things, oh yes,

44:55

right, I'm not going to read that

44:58

one because that is anywhere, ends wetter.

45:00

Anyway, so that's the end of this

45:02

series and we always like to give

45:04

you a bit of homework for everyone

45:06

listening and everyone in the room here.

45:09

So because we're away for a couple

45:11

of months, we would like you to

45:13

go away and see if you can

45:15

discover a new star. Or, if you

45:18

can effectively use a smoke enema. And

45:20

if you do both at the same

45:22

time, there'll be a special treat. You'll

45:24

win dinner with Brian Cox. Just to

45:26

cover ourselves legally, the BBC takes no

45:29

responsibility for any damaging curtors' result of

45:31

not understanding that's a joke. In fact,

45:33

it then even continues, it just says

45:35

the BBC takes no responsibility. Full stop.

45:38

So, there we are. So, we will

45:40

be back in the new year. So

45:42

you'll be listening to this very close

45:44

to Christmas, so we should say, happy

45:46

Christmas. But if you listen to this

45:49

when they all go out and one

45:51

fell swoop rather than on radio for,

45:53

remember there's only 90

45:55

more shopping days

45:57

till Christmas. So we've

46:00

covered both areas

46:02

there. Bye bye. APPLAUSE

46:29

Now, nice again. I'm

46:31

Hannah Fry. and I'm Dara O 'Breen. And

46:33

in the all -new series of curious

46:35

cases, things are getting curiouser. and curiouser.

46:37

be looking at the universe squarely

46:39

in the eye and demanding an answer

46:41

to your everyday mysteries, including Including...

46:43

you actually die of boredom? Why do

46:46

some people taste music? And how

46:48

many lemons would it take to power

46:50

a spaceship? We will shine

46:52

a light on the world's most captivating

46:54

oddities. Brought to us by you, you delightful

46:56

bunch of weirdos. I don't think you're allowed

46:58

to call them that. But them really. Curious

47:01

Cases. On 4. And

47:04

available now on BBC Sounds.

47:15

Yoga is more than

47:17

just exercise, it's the spiritual

47:19

practice that millions swear by. And

47:22

in 2017, Miranda, a

47:24

university tutor from London, joins

47:26

a yoga school that

47:28

promises profound transformation. It felt

47:31

a really safe and

47:33

welcoming space. After the yoga

47:35

classes, I felt amazing.

47:37

But soon, that calm, welcoming

47:39

atmosphere leads to something

47:41

far darker, a journey that

47:43

leads to allegations of

47:45

grooming, trafficking and exploitation across

47:48

international borders. I don't

47:50

have my passport. don't have...

47:52

my phone, don't have my bank

47:54

cards. I have nothing. The

47:56

passport being taken, the in a

47:58

house not feeling like they...

48:00

they can leave. World of Secrets is where

48:03

where untold stories are unveiled and

48:05

hidden realities are exposed. In

48:07

this new series, we're confronting the

48:09

dark side of the wellness

48:12

industry, with the hope of a

48:14

spiritual breakthrough a gives way to

48:16

disturbing accusations. way to You just

48:18

get sucked in You gradually in so it's

48:21

done so so skillfully that

48:23

you don't realize. And it's

48:25

like this the secret that's

48:28

there. there. I wanted to believe

48:30

that, you know, that whatever they

48:32

know, that... even if it

48:34

seemed they were doing, even

48:36

if it seemed gross

48:39

to me, was for

48:41

some spiritual reason that I

48:43

couldn't the hidden the hidden secrets

48:45

of a global yoga network.

48:47

I feel that I have

48:49

no other choice. The only

48:51

thing I can do I

48:54

to speak about this and to

48:56

put my reputation and everything

48:58

else on the line. line.

49:00

I want truth and justice. and

49:02

further people to not be

49:05

hurt for things to not

49:07

be hurt in the things to be different

49:09

in the future. To bring

49:11

it into the light and

49:13

almost alchemise some of that

49:15

evil that went on. went on

49:17

and take back the power. power. World

49:21

of Secrets. Season six the The

49:24

Bad Guru. Listen wherever

49:26

you get your your podcasts