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1:17

Welcome to HARDtalk

1:20

on the BBC World Service with me, Stephen

1:22

Saker. Today's program is

1:24

from our archives, and it examines

1:27

the idea of freedom,

1:29

how it's achieved and how it is

1:31

taken away. Speaking to me in

1:33

twenty four teen on a visit to

1:35

London, my guest had

1:38

a special insight into the ultimate

1:40

denial of freedom that is

1:42

state sanctioned execution. Allen

1:46

Old was during the nineteen nineties,

1:48

the head of corrections in the American

1:50

State of Georgia. He was responsible

1:53

for running the machinery of death.

1:55

Mister Alt didn't just order others

1:57

to carry out executions he felt

1:59

it

1:59

was his duty to be present as

2:02

those executions were carried

2:04

out. But after watching a

2:06

handful of the state's most serious criminals

2:09

being strapped into the electric chair,

2:11

he decided he could stomach it

2:13

no more. He left his post and

2:15

became a campaigner against

2:18

the use of capital punishment in

2:20

the United States. What prompted

2:22

that momentous change of heart

2:24

and it is the death penalty itself

2:27

doomed

2:27

to extinction. It's

2:29

back in the nineteen nineties

2:31

that you were the commissioner of corrections

2:34

in the US State of Georgia. And

2:36

you were responsible for running the machinery

2:40

of capital punishment.

2:41

Is

2:42

that experience still

2:44

with you today? It is still here,

2:47

and I still have

2:49

nightmares not every night, but on

2:51

occasion, I still had nightmares about

2:53

it. It's still a it's

2:55

a very hard pill to swallow,

2:58

and it's

2:59

stays in your psyche for, I

3:01

guess, forever. It's

3:03

the most premeditated murder possible,

3:06

but the the

3:07

manual is about that

3:09

thick and the preparation that

3:11

you go through to

3:12

execute someone? Well, I can

3:14

tell from your words already that this is

3:16

sear into your soul, this whole experience.

3:18

So let us start at the beginning

3:21

and figure out how on earth you

3:23

got yourself involved in this

3:25

element of the corrections business

3:27

because as I understand it, you were a trained

3:30

psychologist and you went to the world

3:32

of corrections, the prison

3:34

system,

3:35

believing that you were there to to help

3:38

and to rehabilitate. Yes. So so

3:40

how on Earth did you end up running

3:42

death row and an execution chamber?

3:44

in the seventies, of course, I'd never been

3:47

in a prison or jail, but in

3:49

Georgia, they had a brand new Maxim Security

3:51

Prison, which was called the Georgia diagnostic

3:54

and classification center. The

3:57

only problem was that they didn't have a program,

3:59

and so they hired me to develop

4:02

a diagnostic and classification system

4:04

as a psychologist. And they made

4:06

me superintendent and warden of

4:08

this institution. So

4:10

and that was ultimately the institution

4:13

and the facility

4:14

that became the chamber of death.

4:17

Yes. Many years later. So

4:20

listen, how did you get sucked

4:22

into a system to the point where

4:24

having been a psychologist having

4:26

ended the system as somebody

4:28

committed to rehabilitation. You

4:30

ended up as the chief who was

4:32

signing off on and running a

4:34

system of

4:36

death in the

4:38

early seventies when I started

4:40

in corrections, the

4:43

death penalty was unconstitutional, and

4:45

then it was later in

4:47

seventy four that Georgia wrote

4:50

a new law that was determined to

4:52

be constitutional by the U. S. Supreme

4:54

Court. But the

4:57

actual executions didn't take place

4:59

to many years later because of

5:01

appeals. And the first

5:03

two that I executed had

5:05

been on death row seventeen years.

5:07

In fact, they were seventeen when they came in,

5:10

and they were thirty four when they were executed.

5:13

Actually, they were different individuals.

5:16

Let's talk about that case because I think

5:18

it's important to get very specific here.

5:20

Mhmm. The seventeen year old that you

5:22

mentioned, I believe he was called Christopher Right?

5:25

he was of limited

5:28

IQ. I think he scored something

5:30

like eighty or so on on the tests suggesting

5:32

he was close to being mentally impaired.

5:34

Right. He also had been abused as a

5:36

child. Right. He ended up being

5:38

involved in the kidnapped rape

5:40

and murder of a young

5:42

man. As you say, he was on death row

5:44

for seventeen years. You got to know him.

5:46

Yes. Outvisited when

5:49

I was commissioner I visited death

5:51

row on several occasions

5:53

and got to know them. And before, this

5:55

was the first warrant that I had to

5:57

execute someone.

5:59

I went

5:59

down to Jackson,

6:02

which is about forty miles from Atlanta

6:04

where the central headquarters are.

6:07

So I talked to him and other people

6:09

on their throat. So it

6:11

wasn't just a matter of executing

6:13

somebody that was you didn't

6:15

know or You

6:18

said, I think, that that you

6:20

saw the change in him --

6:22

Yes. -- from a very disturbed young man

6:24

to a man who by the time he

6:26

was approaching his end.

6:29

You describe as being thoughtful

6:32

and actually contrite Yes.

6:34

Very very contrite. And, you

6:37

know, to put it in psychological

6:40

terms, when he committed the act, he didn't even

6:42

have fully developed frontal lobes which

6:44

allowed you to make decent decisions. He

6:46

was a juvenile? Yes. He was.

6:48

And and the other individual

6:50

involved in the crime was also a juvenile.

6:52

So They were

6:55

now adults. They had

6:57

been on death row for seventeen years.

7:01

And and

7:02

they had educated

7:03

themselves while on death

7:05

row, and they had received a lot

7:07

of counseling and other services while

7:09

they were on death row. So they were different

7:11

human beings actually. Christopher

7:13

Berger's last words to you

7:16

just

7:16

before you

7:17

gave the order. for

7:19

the switch to be pressed were,

7:22

please forgive me. Yes. I

7:25

found out as I executed others,

7:27

some of them even went

7:29

on to filibuster, you had to cut them

7:31

off. I probably would have done that

7:33

too, but

7:35

his was very simple. Please forgive me. And

7:38

how did you feel at that moment?

7:40

Was your responsibility to

7:42

give the order? Yes. I

7:44

was standing behind in

7:47

another room with a glass looking

7:50

at the back of the electric

7:52

chair. I was there

7:54

with the attorney general for the state of

7:56

George and we had phones hooked

7:58

up to the US supreme

8:00

court, the governor's office,

8:02

the Georgia pardons, and parole

8:04

office. And so

8:06

then when he checked

8:08

with each of those entities, which

8:10

might grant a stay or a

8:12

parole, or

8:15

or commute to sentence. But when he

8:17

checked with each of those entities and

8:19

there was no stay, he

8:22

indicated that to me. And

8:25

there was an individual standing behind

8:27

me who had been

8:29

my electrician when I was the warden

8:31

of this institution. I knew

8:33

him very well. And

8:35

so when the attorney general indicated

8:38

there was no stay. Then

8:41

I asked the individual for

8:43

his last if he'd like to give his last

8:45

words, which he said Please

8:49

forgive me. And then

8:51

I turned to Brad

8:54

and said Brad, it's it's

8:56

now time. and

9:01

rad flipped a

9:04

switch and we

9:06

could see the jolt of

9:10

electricity running through this

9:12

individual's body. And snapped

9:16

his head back.

9:19

And

9:21

then there was just a total

9:24

silence.

9:28

And I knew

9:30

I had killed another human being.

9:34

very beginning of this interview,

9:36

you used the word murder?

9:39

Yes. Do you

9:41

believe in your heart that you

9:43

murdered or were involved, complicity

9:46

in the murder of Christopher

9:48

Murder. Although it's

9:50

state sanctioned,

9:55

it is by every definition.

9:58

It's premeditated murder,

9:59

probably the most premeditated of any

10:02

murders. In fact,

10:04

in most states, ex cusions on

10:06

the carnage report is

10:08

listed as a homicide.

10:11

So, yes, I I feel like

10:14

was very much involved

10:19

in premeditating a man's

10:21

killing and giving the order for

10:23

him to be murdered. How

10:26

much damage has that

10:28

done to you? Well,

10:31

we provided psychiatric, psychological

10:34

help for everybody

10:36

involved, the officers involved, and

10:38

the warden that was involved.

10:40

But then I realized that the

10:43

attorney general and I were not

10:45

receiving any treatment, and

10:48

it just it got harder and harder

10:50

for me. The

10:53

attorney general, he handled

10:55

it by running for governor and talking

10:57

about being tough on crime,

11:00

but I don't

11:02

think he handled it very well. And

11:04

I did

11:07

I finally

11:09

went

11:10

and asked for

11:12

treatment and received some treatment to

11:14

to help me through it. help

11:16

you through what? I mean, did you

11:18

feel a sense of guilt?

11:21

A large sense of guilt

11:23

at first I tried

11:26

to rationalize the whole

11:28

process that, well, if I could

11:30

save one human being by

11:32

this process and

11:34

then that'll be worth it. You

11:36

you mean the idea of of the

11:39

deterrent effect deterrent effect, but I

11:41

already knew. I mean, I had already

11:43

read the research on

11:45

current effect, and I

11:47

talked to so many inmates.

11:49

even before we had the death

11:51

penalty. And rarely

11:53

do any of the

11:55

inmates ever think through to the

11:57

consequences of their action. So

11:59

to say that it detours

12:01

and, you know, there have been

12:03

some pieces of research that

12:06

indicated it was a deterrent

12:08

but I don't think any reputable

12:10

research would say

12:13

that it has been a deterrent. Even

12:16

the family of the victims, they

12:18

were in the institution. I didn't

12:21

allow them to go into

12:23

the room where

12:25

the witnesses were

12:27

at an execution. Why didn't you

12:29

allow them? Because I know I mean, I used

12:31

to work in the United States. I've covered executions

12:33

myself, and I know that in many

12:35

states in many situations, the

12:37

family of the victims, those

12:40

who were murdered, and it's always almost always

12:42

a murder. They are

12:45

invited if they want to

12:47

witness the death, the

12:49

execution. They invited

12:51

them to the institution but not

12:53

to witness their execution.

12:55

But there are families who want to be

12:57

there. Yeah. They they say it adds to

12:59

their sense of justice being done, their

13:01

sense of this word that gets you

13:03

so often closure. Well,

13:06

that is, I've talked too

13:08

many, and they did not receive the

13:10

closure that they thought they would.

13:13

and I I didn't want an

13:15

execution to be revenge

13:18

or seen as revenge. But

13:21

after That's truly

13:23

what it retribution

13:25

is what it's all about. And was it for you

13:27

to decide? it was for me to

13:29

decide. We I was responsible,

13:32

so I decided

13:34

that the

13:36

victims

13:36

would not attend the execution. And

13:39

we had other

13:41

witnesses in a witness pool, but not the

13:43

victims' family. here

13:46

is what I find most

13:48

perhaps puzzling about

13:50

the real honesty with which you

13:52

describe your feelings in this First,

13:55

execution. You say you didn't actually

13:57

even then really believe in the

13:59

deterrent effect. And you clearly

14:01

had grave doubts about what you were doing

14:03

here. but you went on -- Yes. I

14:05

did. -- to supervise the killing

14:08

of

14:08

more prisoners. Four after that.

14:10

How could you do that? How could you live with

14:12

your conscience? I

14:14

didn't do it well. I didn't it

14:16

was

14:16

a a small part of

14:18

that job. I

14:20

had fifteen thousand employees, a

14:22

billion dollar budget you

14:24

you were a top official in the prison

14:26

system. Right. I had the States, but we all do respect.

14:28

Yeah. It was not a small part of your

14:30

job because it was the moment in which

14:33

you in a certain sense

14:35

were playing God. You

14:37

were playing with people's

14:39

lives and that is no small matter. it

14:41

certainly is not. And

14:43

I've spent a

14:46

lifetime since then regretting every

14:51

moment and every

14:53

killing five

14:55

in total. it

14:57

it is perhaps too easy for me to

14:59

sit here with you and go through

15:01

cases and ask you difficult

15:03

questions, but there is one other case that

15:05

I really must ask you about.

15:08

That is the black

15:09

man who was

15:12

convicted of murdering

15:14

three women. Now he

15:15

was sentenced

15:16

to die. Yes. It became

15:19

plain in that period between

15:21

conviction and death.

15:24

that, first of all, there had

15:26

been a significant

15:27

racial element within

15:30

the jury. one

15:31

juror described an

15:34

atmosphere of intimidation where the n word

15:36

was repeatedly used for that minority

15:38

of jurors who were black. who

15:40

were ultimately to decide his fate.

15:42

There was also evidence

15:44

that this man was

15:46

mentally impaired to the point where

15:49

Frankly, many experts didn't believe he was

15:51

competent to make a

15:53

plea. You

15:54

still, despite all of

15:56

that, I had

15:57

him killed. Yes.

15:59

bam

16:02

I was without

16:04

trying to excuse myself at all.

16:06

I I was the vehicle for

16:09

the execution, and I

16:12

have no defense for that. Why

16:14

didn't you walk away?

16:17

I

16:18

did, but not then. That

16:20

was too late. Yes. For him,

16:22

it was too late. It was too late.

16:24

Yes. When you're

16:28

doing the executions, you don't

16:30

get all the history of

16:32

what went on the jury and you

16:34

know, looking back over it.

16:36

all that information came out,

16:39

but you certainly didn't have that

16:41

type of information. But

16:43

when you look at the research,

16:46

black people

16:47

who kill

16:50

whites are about three times

16:52

more likely to be receive the

16:54

death penalty. than the other way

16:56

around. Certainly, it's a racial

16:58

thing. I've found that in

17:00

talking to many, many citizens They

17:02

usually have a stereotype in the back

17:04

of their mind that they're frightened of.

17:07

In the south, that might be a large

17:09

black rapist or, you know, but there's

17:11

always a racial stereotype involved

17:14

usually. And so when

17:16

you talk about next cution, they're

17:18

killing that stereotype, not

17:20

the human being that actually is there.

17:23

And

17:26

I have many

17:28

compatriots who were directors who

17:30

have gone through this execution.

17:34

I don't

17:36

know any of them that haven't shed a

17:38

lot of tears over it.

17:42

You talk

17:42

about shedding tears. Is

17:45

that as far as it goes for you?

17:47

Or have you taken from your

17:49

experience a determination to

17:52

do something about it. There's

17:54

a group of five

17:56

of us on three

17:59

who were former

17:59

directors, the other two former

18:02

wardens. One of

18:04

them was the

18:07

director in California, one of the

18:09

director in Ohio. but we

18:11

have

18:11

an organization that we work

18:13

trying to stop executions and

18:17

I appeared before

18:19

several legislative groups trying

18:23

to

18:23

abolish the death penalty in

18:26

several states. So

18:27

it's been an ongoing type

18:29

of thing. We've worked on

18:31

individual cases. Most of them

18:35

not too successful, but I did have

18:38

success last year with one case of getting

18:40

it stayed

18:41

and then be metered the next day.

18:44

And those

18:46

are very personal experiences. This

18:49

individual was a

18:51

black man who was six foot

18:54

nine. He had a good record

18:56

until he was

18:59

around nineteen. and somebody

19:02

said, I wonder what Daniel would do if he took

19:04

this blue pill, and they gave him the

19:06

blue pill. And

19:09

he just went absolutely besert

19:11

for about four hours, killed his stabbed and

19:13

killed his best friend. and

19:15

stabbed one other individual who survived.

19:18

The prosecutor

19:20

went all out to try him and

19:22

and and he what the death row when he

19:24

was there in nineteen years. As

19:27

big as he was, he could have been

19:29

the bully of death row, but he

19:31

spent the whole nineteen years trying to

19:33

help other pool. So

19:36

I was asked to try to intervene

19:39

in this case, and I I did

19:41

talk with the pro board and We

19:43

took we gathered

19:45

at the

19:46

Davids from many of the staff who

19:48

told how Goody was and, I mean,

19:50

how Ready was on Dithro.

19:52

And at the very last moment,

19:55

about two hours before he's been executed, they

19:57

stayed the execution. Did in

19:59

that sense, did

19:59

that particular

20:01

campaign for

20:02

that particular individual. Did that

20:04

seem like some sort of,

20:08

I don't know, giving back some sort

20:10

of payback for what

20:13

you had done yourself in the

20:15

past. I think all the

20:17

things that I do now is tried

20:19

to alleviate the sense

20:21

of guilt and I've

20:23

made two movies, one for

20:25

discovery channel, which was produced and

20:27

directed by a British firm. because they wanted to

20:29

do a non political film.

20:31

Well, I'm sorry, but death

20:33

penalty is totally political. III

20:36

wanna just talk briefly about politics. You said this

20:38

of politicians that you've had experience of

20:40

as a director of good corrections in

20:42

the United States. In

20:44

the field of corrections, you say

20:47

politicians play to the base instincts

20:49

of the electorate. There is an

20:51

awful lot of grandstanding. Yes.

20:53

You sound very cynical about politics. I

20:57

understand.

20:57

One North Georgia chicken farmer

21:00

told me about politics. He

21:02

said, Alan, I'll do whatever you asked me to do. You want

21:04

some more money in your budget or you wanna change

21:06

the law unless it becomes between me

21:08

and one of my constituents.

21:11

and he said the name of the game is

21:14

reelection. And certainly, that's

21:16

our US Congress and

21:18

that's in most legislation. And

21:21

so many of them will tell me, we've

21:23

got to just

21:25

be

21:25

tough on crime to our constituents.

21:27

But that that in a way is the point,

21:29

you know, in this extraordinary

21:33

change of heart you've had

21:35

and journey that you've made,

21:37

you're missing out one element, are

21:39

you not? That is The United States is

21:41

very proud of its democracy. And every

21:43

poll in the US, to this day, even though

21:45

the numbers have changed somewhat, shows that

21:48

a majority, a clear majority of

21:50

Americans believe in

21:52

the death penalty as the ultimate deterrent.

21:54

And as long as that is true,

21:57

don't politicians have a duty to reflect

22:00

that?

22:00

Well, I don't know. They also have a

22:02

duty to inform their voters, set

22:04

their constituents at example,

22:08

Connecticut. They had a research that

22:10

was done over four

22:12

decades by Donna Hughes

22:14

from Stanford University, a law professor.

22:17

And they had

22:19

every capital case judged

22:21

by independent judges. And the forty

22:24

because people thought the most egregious

22:26

cases were in death row.

22:28

Turned out to somewhere

22:30

around forty seven or forty nine of the most egregious

22:33

cases, you know, where they'd cause

22:35

pain or rape or whatever. only

22:39

one of those cases were

22:41

actually on death row. And

22:43

when

22:44

that and some other things,

22:46

expensive, it is tremendous. The

22:49

Connecticut legislature last

22:51

year did away

22:51

at the death penalty. To end,

22:53

let's bring it back. to you. You

22:56

wrote not so long ago

22:58

some very powerful words. You said no one

23:00

has the right to ask a public

23:03

servant to take on a lifelong sentence

23:06

of nagging doubt, shame,

23:09

and guilt. Yes. Isn't

23:11

that what you have been sentenced

23:14

to? Absolutely. Every

23:17

time I think it's behind

23:20

me, then something happens

23:22

and it all comes back with a rush.

23:25

And I was out at the Lexington

23:27

Airport, the morning I

23:29

had A605 flight and the six o'clock

23:31

flight left. And by all

23:33

rights, I'd always been on Delta Airlines.

23:35

This morning, I was going someplace else

23:37

that was on another airline,

23:40

and I checked in with

23:41

all these people. And

23:44

the plane crashed and killed

23:46

everyone

23:48

And I had

23:50

to go again all that

23:54

all those feelings came back. All

23:56

those faces came back. All

23:58

those nightmares came

23:59

back.

24:02

And this

24:05

is set to keep redoing with it, redoing

24:07

with it. Well, Allen,

24:09

I thank you for sharing your experience with

24:11

us. Thanks for being on HARDtalk

24:14

you. Whatever you're looking

24:16

for in a podcast, the BBC World

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Service has something for you

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from untold legends or

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tracing the story of a gifted black sports

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investigating the rise of the QAnon conspiracy

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threatening American democracy, a

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