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conditions apply. Welcome to Hard

0:40

Talk from the BBC World Service.

0:42

With me Stephen Sackett. In early

0:44

adulthood, my guest today made a

0:47

life-changing choice which cut him off

0:49

from his family and homeland. for

0:51

the foreseeable future. He's known as

0:53

Badigutsao. It's not his real name,

0:56

but that is something he chooses

0:58

not to use. He was born

1:00

in Shanghai to a family tainted

1:02

in the eyes of the Communist

1:05

Party by a dissident past. In

1:07

particular, a grandfather who was

1:09

a screenwriter condemned to hard

1:12

labour under Chairman Mao. In

1:14

the 1990s, Badiyuzao saw a

1:16

clandestine copy of a documentary

1:19

film detailing the massacre of

1:21

student protesters in Tiananmen Square

1:24

in 1989. 2009, he got

1:26

permission to study in Australia.

1:29

He left. and never came

1:31

back. He began drawing political

1:33

cartoons, lampooning Chinese Communist Party

1:36

propaganda, and he built an

1:38

audience and a reputation both in

1:41

Australia and far beyond. In 2018,

1:43

he learned that the Chinese authorities

1:45

knew his real identity. Family members

1:48

in China were being threatened, and

1:50

Badiyu Zao faced a choice. Stop

1:52

his creative career in order to

1:55

protect his family or continue. Ultimately,

1:57

he chose the latter. He cut.

1:59

all contact with family to protect

2:01

them. And a year later revealed

2:04

his identity in an Australian TV

2:06

documentary. Since then his international reputation

2:08

has grown. He's had exhibitions in

2:10

Australia and a host of European

2:12

cities. But he feels that too

2:15

many major galleries and museums, especially

2:17

in Australia, choose not to feature

2:19

his work. for fear of upsetting

2:21

the Chinese government. He's also catalogued

2:23

a series of incidents which he

2:25

says suggest the Chinese authorities are

2:28

out to intimidate him, if not

2:30

worse. His latest work is a

2:32

graphic novel depicting a future conflict

2:34

between the US and China over

2:36

Taiwan. He says he will never

2:38

trade being truthful to himself and

2:41

his art for security. But how

2:43

does insecurity impact his creativity? Well,

2:45

he joins me now on the

2:47

line from Taipei. Badiyud-sau, welcome to

2:49

Hardtalk. Thank you. It's a pleasure

2:51

to be here. It's a pleasure

2:54

to talk to you. Now, you

2:56

are an internationally renowned illustrator and

2:58

artist today, but your subject matter,

3:00

by and large, is deeply political.

3:02

So to what extent does politics

3:05

fuel all of your art? Well,

3:07

I think you cannot really separate

3:09

art from politics. For me, I

3:11

grow up in a country which

3:13

is heavily polluted by politics all

3:15

the time. I believe that artists'

3:18

expression need to be truthful to

3:20

our lives. And as a China-born...

3:22

artists that my family history, what

3:24

my experience is loaded by the

3:26

shadow of Beijing's political persecution and

3:28

other threats. So for me naturally,

3:31

I want to engage my expression

3:33

in art with the politics. It

3:35

is only a very natural product.

3:37

Is it to the exclusion of

3:39

all else? I mean, if you

3:41

just felt a sort of desire

3:44

to paint or draw something intensely

3:46

beautiful, it didn't really have a

3:48

political message, would you actually... in

3:50

a sense, sensor yourself, because what

3:52

you are after is always a

3:54

political content, a political message. Does

3:57

it go that far? Well, I

3:59

think we have to see slightly

4:01

separately, because one thing is about

4:03

the subject to choosing, the other

4:05

thing is the process of making

4:08

art. As an artist, we have

4:10

to pay very attention to our

4:12

life and be truthful to our

4:14

experience. That is why I would

4:16

always focusing on those political events.

4:18

or human rights record from China,

4:21

because that's the thing that I

4:23

care the most. But while the

4:25

process of creating art to create

4:27

an image to grasp the essence

4:29

of basic human emotion within those

4:31

very different time or occasion, that's

4:34

a pure artistic process for creation.

4:36

Right now you're sitting in Taipei

4:38

and you have a new graphic

4:40

novel coming out a collaboration with

4:42

a writer in which you illustrate

4:44

what is a sort of dystopian

4:47

near future where an authoritarian United

4:49

States is at war with an

4:51

authoritarian China over Taiwan and you

4:53

know it plays out with young

4:55

people having to make very difficult

4:58

choices about what they do in

5:00

this context. Have you done your

5:02

work on that particular graphic novel?

5:04

with an international audience in mind

5:06

or do you hope that somehow

5:08

or other the content of this

5:11

work reaches particularly young people inside

5:13

China? I do hope it can

5:15

reach as meeting as different groups

5:17

in the world as possible. Of

5:19

course, this work has a lot

5:21

to referencing what happened in China,

5:24

in Hong Kong, in Taiwan. It

5:26

is a dedication for those people

5:28

in those countries who are bravely

5:30

fighting for their rights. But more

5:32

importantly, I think visual art is

5:34

always something that trying to build

5:37

a bridge between different culture and

5:39

language, because visual language does not

5:41

have this difficulty. But I really

5:43

want to achieve through this very

5:45

particular form of great... novel or

5:47

comics you may call it is

5:50

to approach to the younger generation

5:52

especially for Gen Z and teenagers

5:54

that talking about human rights sometimes

5:56

can be too serious and not

5:58

appealing to the younger generation but

6:01

comics or manga or graphic novel

6:03

has this magic has this language

6:05

is talking to our younger generation

6:07

and that is why I want

6:09

to use this media to talking

6:11

about those difficulty issues but also

6:14

make it cool. Make it cool.

6:16

I mean far from regarding it

6:18

as cool what the Chinese authorities

6:20

clearly see in your work is

6:22

something treasonous. You know, they portray

6:24

you as a guy who has

6:27

sold out China to... foreign interests.

6:29

You're anti-China, according to Beijing. And

6:31

I just wonder when you take

6:33

on topics like the future of

6:35

Taiwan, just as you take on

6:37

topics like the corrupt authoritarian rule

6:40

of the Chinese Communist Party led

6:42

by Xi Jinping. Whether you actually

6:44

believe a lot of Chinese people

6:46

might buy the official line, that

6:48

you are selling out China. I

6:51

always want to make it very

6:53

clear. There's a difference between the

6:55

China's commerce party. and China and

6:57

Chinese people on Chinese population. I

6:59

am a China-born artist. My root

7:01

is there. All my growing up

7:04

time is from China. I have

7:06

very deep connection and love to

7:08

this land, to its people who

7:10

are living on this land. So

7:12

to me, to telling the true

7:14

side of China, to pointing out

7:17

the problem of the Chinese government,

7:19

is my way to express my

7:21

love to China, to the Chinese

7:23

people on this land. in a

7:25

contrast that I always being putting

7:27

into a position as if I'm

7:30

anti-China. That is only because the

7:32

China's Communist Party is good at

7:34

mixing or misleading the very different

7:36

notion between people, land, and the

7:38

regime. Just a thought about the

7:40

style you use. Some of the

7:43

images you create a little reminiscent

7:45

to me of... work done by

7:47

the UK street artist Banksy in

7:49

that you are subvertive in a

7:51

way. You subvert almost cliched images

7:54

and change their meaning and you

7:56

also poke fun and use humor

7:58

when you're challenging, for example, President

8:00

Xi Jinping and there's one very

8:02

well-known piece of yours where you

8:04

characterize Xi Jinping with a shotgun

8:07

having it seems, according to the

8:09

image, just shot dead, Winnie the

8:11

Pooh. And Winnie the Pooh of

8:13

course in recent times in China.

8:15

has sort of become a sort

8:17

of symbolic meme associated with Xi

8:20

Jin Ping. Was that your sort

8:22

of humorous way of saying, it's

8:24

easy to get under Xi Jin

8:26

Ping's skin, you know, this idea

8:28

that he has to shoot Winnie

8:30

the Pooh? Well I think it's

8:33

very important to making work fun

8:35

but also using this satire to

8:37

pointing out a dictator is not

8:39

a guard just a mortal just

8:41

an individual person that can be

8:44

criticized like anyone of us in

8:46

the society but also the use

8:48

of being for me particularly is

8:50

very important and to actually using

8:52

a weapon to defeat a censorship

8:54

in China and here's how it

8:57

works when you kind of successfully

8:59

making a very political taboo the

9:01

image, braged or connecting with a

9:03

very popular image, like online mean,

9:05

like winning the booze, then you're

9:07

certainly creating a huge difficulty with

9:10

China's censorship. Because if they've forbidden

9:12

the image, then public asks questions.

9:14

Why our beloved Yellow Bear is

9:16

no longer online? And then if

9:18

they choose not to doing it,

9:20

then my message embedded in those

9:23

means popular images get its life

9:25

longer in China and rich to

9:27

more people. perhaps more than any

9:29

other government in the world is

9:31

extremely adept at information control, at

9:33

surveillance, at ensuring that the Chinese

9:36

population does not see things that

9:38

the Chinese government doesn't want it

9:40

to see. So what's your knowledge

9:42

of whether or not people inside

9:44

your... Homeland are able to see

9:47

your work. I do have great

9:49

confidence that there are a large

9:51

amount of people from China. can

9:53

find their way whether they're using

9:55

VPN or other methodology to going

9:57

around the censorship system the so-called

10:00

the great fire war on internet

10:02

of China there are a lot

10:04

of people are using social media

10:06

like Twitter or Instagram or Facebook

10:08

maybe some of them were just

10:10

there to checking the Hollywood stars

10:13

or kpop. But in the same

10:15

time, they're also opening the door

10:17

to the free world to letting

10:19

information like my artworks to be

10:21

finding the window to reach them.

10:23

It works with multiple layers of

10:26

audience as well, because the methodology

10:28

that I use is I always

10:30

try to make my art accessible

10:32

without any copyright issues. Yeah, but

10:34

it's a risk, isn't it? I

10:37

mean, you mustn't be very aware

10:39

that if people inside China... download

10:41

your images, even look at your

10:43

images, they run the risk of

10:45

arrest and imprisonment. So I just

10:47

wonder how you feel about that.

10:50

It is difficult, it is never

10:52

easy to see people that getting

10:54

into trouble with my images. But

10:56

it's also very necessary that getting

10:58

those information spread it because we

11:00

have to understand to knowing there

11:03

are people outside of China have

11:05

the capacity to criticize changing ping.

11:07

It is also a very powerful

11:09

moment for the people inside of

11:11

China. When people living in China,

11:13

they don't really have a voice.

11:16

When they see there are... artists

11:18

or journalists or storytellers try to

11:20

tell their stories that they cannot

11:22

speak up inside of China. It

11:24

is also an important experience for

11:26

them. How did you find your

11:29

way to become an artist dissident?

11:31

You were a child of the

11:33

post- Tiananmen era. You were brought

11:35

up in a China... where it

11:37

was forbidden to even reference what

11:40

happened in 1989 and yet you

11:42

clearly developed a consciousness that was

11:44

deeply rebellious toward the Communist Party

11:46

and its way of running your

11:48

country. Where did that come from?

11:50

I would say it's half of

11:53

the family history because my great

11:55

parents they were actually the first

11:57

group of filmmakers in China being

11:59

active in 1930s until they get

12:01

into trouble in the 1957 with

12:03

a hundred blossom movements. My grandpa

12:06

died in the movement and this

12:08

family trauma has been passing on

12:10

me and telling me that there's

12:12

something wrong with this regime that

12:14

I cannot buy 100% of its

12:16

propaganda. The lesson of your grandfather

12:19

was that it was extraordinarily dangerous

12:21

to use creativity in a way

12:23

that challenged the authority of the

12:25

party and the state. I mean,

12:27

didn't your own parents warn you

12:29

off rebellion, certainly artistic rebellion? Oh,

12:32

they did. And they did it

12:34

when I was a teenage. And

12:36

naturally, I think regardless, the Chinese

12:38

teenage or British teenage, we rebel

12:40

when we're on that age. I

12:43

think it's only human nature for

12:45

young people to seeking freedom. Did

12:47

your dad tell you that, you

12:49

know, you absolutely should not pursue

12:51

a career in art? He actually

12:53

did. In his own quote, he

12:56

would rather me to be a

12:58

barber or a sheriff instead of

13:00

being an artist because if I

13:02

do that I will never lose

13:04

my job. But being an artist

13:06

is a dangerous choice. The bottom

13:09

line is you got the opportunity

13:11

to study in Australia, you took

13:13

it and you decided to stay.

13:15

And I guess that decision was

13:17

tied to your decision to go

13:19

into creativity. You began drawing, cartooning,

13:22

and very soon you had success.

13:24

But I just wonder whether as

13:26

you had that success, there was

13:28

a part of you that also

13:30

felt a deep sense of loss,

13:33

because you were burning your bridges

13:35

very quickly with your homeland and

13:37

with your family. Indeed, because I

13:39

become a poison to my family,

13:41

because what I did for my

13:43

art, that... a lot of the

13:46

prizes actually paid by my family

13:48

back in China when they got

13:50

visited and interrogated by the Chinese

13:52

National Security Police. But I think

13:54

what I'm doing is something that

13:56

I truly believing in. And if

13:59

there's no one is... trying to

14:01

make the truth outside of China,

14:03

letting more people to know the

14:05

situation will never change and the

14:07

suffer will not just remaining to

14:09

my family but more family and

14:12

for generations in the future. But

14:14

there must have been an incredible

14:16

crunch moment because of course you

14:18

know I've introduced you as Badu

14:20

Zao and that's not your real

14:22

name it's it's a sort of

14:25

artistic name you use you're now

14:27

showing me your face of course

14:29

and that was a decision you

14:31

took about what five or six

14:33

years ago but there was that

14:36

crunch moment when the Chinese authorities

14:38

authorities authorities authorities For the first

14:40

time, realized exactly who you were,

14:42

I think there was an exhibition

14:44

planned in Hong Kong at the

14:46

time, and they made it plain

14:49

that if you went ahead with

14:51

that exhibition, your family would suffer.

14:53

You've had to wrestle with the

14:55

most difficult dilemmas, both personal and

14:57

artistic. Indeed, it is a hard

14:59

choice. It is hard decision because

15:02

clearly the police said that you

15:04

either giving up your art or

15:06

you will get into trouble and

15:08

your family will be in the

15:10

trouble too. But I always believe

15:12

that you cannot exchange your freedom.

15:15

for safety or the other way

15:17

around. Because once you do, you

15:19

actually lose both. You don't mind

15:21

me asking a very personal question.

15:23

Did you get messages from inside

15:26

China, from your family in Shanghai

15:28

and beyond, saying, please stop? Because

15:30

if you carry on, we are

15:32

in big trouble. Well they're happening

15:34

in 2018 via the police threat

15:36

as well. So what I do

15:39

now is actually cutting my connection

15:41

with anyone that I loved or

15:43

cared in China because that's the

15:45

only way that I can show

15:47

the Chinese police that we're no

15:49

longer really connected. If you want

15:52

get to me, get to me

15:54

directly. Literally, do you mean you've

15:56

sort of become a stranger? to

15:58

your own family. Indeed, indeed. That's

16:00

just the hard choice that I

16:02

have to make. I mean that

16:05

is one heck of a price

16:07

to pay. You're absolutely right, but

16:09

in the same time that I

16:11

also waning support from the people.

16:13

who loved my arts from the

16:15

people who are inside of China,

16:18

who sees my art as inspiration.

16:20

And only through that, I can

16:22

see the hope that China maybe

16:24

one day can be changed. Let's

16:26

talk now about the impact of

16:29

your art, because you've made all

16:31

these sacrifices for it, and as

16:33

I've said, you've won international acclaim,

16:35

not just in Australia, but around

16:37

the world. But what you haven't

16:39

done, if I may say so,

16:42

is quite emulate a guy that

16:44

you've worked with, and I know

16:46

you know well, I-way-way-way, who has

16:48

become the kind of artist. who

16:50

commands the biggest stages, that is

16:52

the greatest galleries and museums in

16:55

the world, put on his shows.

16:57

You have always struggled to get

16:59

that kind of recognition and access,

17:01

not least in the country that

17:03

you've adopted Australia. Why is it,

17:05

do you believe, that some museums

17:08

and galleries are so cautious about

17:10

giving you a platform? Well, it

17:12

definitely because the long reach of

17:14

the Chinese government and what it

17:16

has been doing is if I

17:19

do any exhibition around the world

17:21

in Europe or in Australia in

17:23

America, I'm certainly the Chinese government

17:25

while sending diplomats or emailing or

17:27

calling the museum and saying it's

17:29

not in their interest to having

17:32

the show and it must be

17:34

canceled. It is their tactic in

17:36

order to terror those institutions to

17:38

not showing the work. that they

17:40

don't like. Do you think there's

17:42

an element of cowardice in this?

17:45

I mean I know a few

17:47

years ago you were very upset

17:49

by the National Gallery of Victoria

17:51

which took away from you a

17:53

platform that you hope to have

17:55

for a particular event and and

17:58

afterward you expressed your discontent about

18:00

that. How would you characterize the

18:02

decision-making that you've seen? I think

18:04

incidents like that is always absolutely

18:06

shame for those... institutions because our

18:08

institutions supposed to be the fortress

18:11

that defending the right for expression.

18:13

or artists, but because of some

18:15

political or financial pressures, they just

18:17

caved the end and not giving

18:19

artists their way to speak, is

18:22

something a deep betray to its

18:24

essence as a role for supporting

18:26

artists in the first place? I

18:28

mean, the gallery at the time

18:30

just looked into it a little

18:32

bit. The gallery at the time

18:35

said it was, quote, unable to

18:37

accommodate the security and logistics that

18:39

would have been required. And I

18:41

guess, you know... When China is

18:43

putting pressure on, but also there

18:45

is this sense that there could

18:48

be some public protest, it might

18:50

become controversial. Maybe it's easier for

18:52

creatives running these galleries and museums

18:54

just to say, you know what,

18:56

thanks, but no thanks. But they

18:58

are the art facility. Arts need

19:01

to be controversial. Where are the

19:03

pioneers to exploring the limitation of

19:05

expression? Controversy should be some kind

19:07

of goal for the artists as

19:09

well as those artistic institutions. But

19:12

to me, I don't think they

19:14

really fulfill their duty. Isn't there

19:16

another reality here, Budget Sauer, which

19:18

is that, you know, if we're

19:20

talking about Australia, where you currently

19:22

live, China is the country's biggest

19:25

trading partner, China buys an enormous

19:27

amount of Australian resources and goods

19:29

and services? It's a hugely important

19:31

ongoing relationship, and you're going to

19:33

have to accept that. In your

19:35

life outside of China, maybe you

19:38

have to accept that China is

19:40

becoming more and more powerful. not

19:42

just in economic terms, but maybe

19:44

in cultural terms as well. Well,

19:46

I would doubt that. Firstly, if

19:48

we see what's happening in China's

19:51

economy, there are so many signs

19:53

that the situation is not getting

19:55

good. We see the realist market

19:57

is almost crumbling. We see the

19:59

overcapacity of production. I think it's

20:01

actually pretty unwise for Australia to...

20:04

continue on this old road that

20:06

thinking China is still this golden

20:08

goose while pumping money to Australia.

20:10

Actually China is struggling with its

20:12

economy right now, but also culturally

20:15

without freedom of speech, without this

20:17

activity that allowing people to express

20:19

themselves freely, I don't think it's

20:21

really the soil that well having

20:23

a fruitful artistic creation growing from

20:25

this country. At least it's not

20:28

sustainable. Yeah, I mean, but money

20:30

does talk and I think by

20:32

many measures China is now the

20:34

second biggest art market in the

20:36

world outside of the United States.

20:38

That again is going to impact

20:41

people like you. It is indeed,

20:43

but what it does is not

20:45

elevated taste or making or producing

20:47

or promoting more good art. What

20:49

it do is rotten the entire

20:51

art industry and bringing down to

20:54

the level of pure propaganda or

20:56

nonsense. Just a personal thought, we

20:58

talked about the difficulties your family

21:00

has faced inside China. I mean,

21:02

you've lived in Australia now for

21:05

what, 15 years or more, but

21:07

I know that there are indications

21:09

that still you're under surveillance, you've

21:11

talked about intimidating incidents that you've

21:13

experienced in Australia, do you feel

21:15

that you are truly free from

21:18

the reach of the Chinese state?

21:20

No, I don't think so at

21:22

all, because I did experiencing so

21:24

many incidents like being followed or

21:26

a possible home invasion and I

21:28

have to talk to the Australian

21:31

police time to time just for

21:33

the basic security. And then don't

21:35

mention all those death threats from

21:37

online and a daily base. This

21:39

is actually the reality that I've

21:41

living as a dissident artist. You

21:44

know, I hesitate to say it,

21:46

but it's my job. It would

21:48

go away if you stop creating

21:50

the kind of art you create.

21:52

Well then my dream bothers how

21:54

as the artist's identity also goes

21:57

away. We all need to sacrifice

21:59

to pursuing our dream and being

22:01

an artist. about those important issues

22:03

is my dream. I can't betray

22:05

it. I want to end with

22:08

a thought that is derived from

22:10

a book that came out a

22:12

short time ago. It's a really

22:14

interesting book about China's Underground historians

22:16

and the Battle for the Future.

22:18

That's its subtitle. It's written by

22:21

a guy called Ian Johnson and

22:23

his contention is that actually writers,

22:25

filmmakers, historians, artists working sort of

22:27

in secret outside of the reach

22:29

of the Chinese Communist Party may

22:31

still be able to create a

22:34

sort of a fire a very...

22:36

a small fire of creativity of

22:38

truth-telling, which in the end can

22:40

ignite something which will challenge the

22:42

narrative of the Chinese Communist Party.

22:44

Do you believe that? I do

22:47

believe that. Well, a lot of

22:49

people are saying that maybe after

22:51

the 1989 Tiananmen movement, there's no

22:53

real protest. But what we have

22:55

witnessed that happened during the white

22:58

paper protests, which ending the COVID-19

23:00

kind of zero policy, is a

23:02

really inspiring moment for the world

23:04

to witness. It means the younger

23:06

generation are more... theories are more

23:08

brave than we ever imagined and

23:11

they have their language and they

23:13

have their voices and they know

23:15

that taking the streets and protests

23:17

would make China a different place

23:19

at least they ended the COVID

23:21

policy in China. So those things

23:24

does give me a lot of

23:26

hope and inspiration as well. We

23:28

have to end there but Bajutsao

23:30

in Taipei. I thank you very

23:32

much for joining me on hard

23:34

talk. Thank you. Thank you. Hey,

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