0:00

Welcome to Hard Talk from Washington

0:02

with me, Stephen Sacker. My guest

0:04

today in an exclusive interview recorded

0:06

on the 12th of February has

0:09

had less than a month to

0:11

get used to normal life after

0:13

four years in one of the

0:16

most stressful and consequential jobs in

0:18

the world, serving as national security

0:20

advisor to President Joe Biden. And

0:22

Jake Sullivan's tenure... was certainly not

0:25

the best of times. It began

0:27

with the messy American troop withdrawal

0:29

from Afghanistan. Then in 2022, the

0:32

focus turned to the eastern flank

0:34

of Europe and Vladimir Putin's full-scale

0:36

invasion of Ukraine. While that grim

0:38

conflict continued, another took center stage.

0:41

In October 2023, Hamas's assault on

0:43

southern Israel from Gaza heralded a

0:45

spiral of conflict which brought devastating

0:48

humanitarian consequences and threatened a multi-front

0:50

war in the Middle East. How

0:52

well did the Biden team handle

0:54

these rolling crises? Donald Trump claimed

0:57

the Biden years left America weakened

0:59

and vulnerable. Did team Biden's failings?

1:01

Prepare the ground for Trump 2.0.

1:04

Well, Jake Sullivan joins me now.

1:06

Thanks for having me. It's great

1:08

pleasure. Donald Trump is back in

1:10

the White House and it's already

1:13

clear there is going to be

1:15

a radical reset of US foreign

1:17

and national security policy. How much

1:20

of a watershed moment? Does this

1:22

feel to be to you? I

1:24

think it's too soon to tell.

1:26

It feels like it's already been

1:29

a lifetime, but it's been just

1:31

over three weeks since Donald Trump

1:33

took office. And obviously there's been

1:36

a flurry of activity. But the

1:38

real question is, how much discontinuity

1:40

will there be on the major

1:42

files? Take China, for example. We

1:45

could end up in a circumstance

1:47

where Donald Trump strikes some grand

1:49

bargain with Xi Jinping. Or we

1:52

could end up with him continuing

1:54

down the road of intense competition

1:56

with China. So I think we

1:58

have to wait and see what

2:01

he actually does and not just

2:03

look at what he tweets and

2:05

says. I want to unpick the

2:08

various specific foreign policy areas in

2:10

a little while, but before I

2:12

do that, do you just have

2:14

an overwhelming sense of failure? after

2:17

what happened in November? Well, that

2:19

was a genuine defeat. We lost

2:21

at the ballot box the presidency

2:24

for the years 2025 to 2029.

2:26

But on the question of whether

2:28

we succeeded or failed, a big

2:30

part of the answer to that is

2:32

what hand did we pass on to

2:34

the Trump administration? Were our alliances stronger

2:37

than we found them? Yes. Were our

2:39

enemies weaker and under more pressure? Yes.

2:41

Did we keep America out of war?

2:43

Yes. Are we in a better position

2:45

in the strategic competition with China? Yes.

2:47

Did we arrest and reverse the slide

2:49

in our manufacturing base, our defense industrial

2:51

base, our supply chains? in all those

2:53

areas we did. So I think we've

2:55

handed a good hand to the next

2:57

president, even though there was a political

2:59

defeat at the ballot box. And the

3:02

other thing I would point out is

3:04

the main things driving the outcome in

3:06

this election based on everything that we've

3:08

seen so far. We're not foreign policy

3:10

issues. There are issues related to things

3:12

like post-covet inflation. So yeah, no question.

3:15

Domestic policy played a huge role in

3:17

the election result. But in your list

3:19

of self-justifications there, surely you're missing out

3:21

one key. And that is America's projection

3:23

of power around the world. Donald Trump's

3:25

message to the US public when it

3:28

came to foreign policy was that under

3:30

Joe Biden, and it has to

3:32

be said under your role in

3:34

the White House, what we had

3:36

seen was the world regarding America

3:39

as a week. American deterrence, according

3:41

to Trump, failed. It failed in

3:43

regard to Putin. It failed in

3:45

regard to Hamas. How do you respond to

3:47

that? Let's start with China. When we came

3:50

into office, the standard prediction was that the

3:52

Chinese economy would surpass the American economy by

3:54

the end of this decade. At the end

3:57

of our four years, it doesn't look like

3:59

China will surpass America. economically anytime soon,

4:01

if at all. The US is leading

4:03

in the AI race. The US has

4:05

the strongest allies in the Indo-Pacific in

4:07

half a century. And in the strategic

4:10

competition with China, the United States is

4:12

in a much stronger position than we

4:14

were before. Sure, but Donald Trump is

4:16

clearly going to be tougher on China

4:18

than you ever were. Donald Trump's already

4:20

imposed tariffs on China. He imposed tariffs

4:22

on China before and over the four

4:25

years of his tenure. China gained on

4:27

the United States in many dramatic ways,

4:29

gains that were arrested under the Biden

4:31

administration. Second, it's not at all clear

4:33

whether he's going to be tough on

4:35

China. In fact, he's made multiple public

4:38

comments with respect to Taiwan and other

4:40

issues that suggest he may take a

4:42

different track with China. We don't know

4:44

yet. We'll have to watch and see.

4:46

And let's address those other issues. His

4:48

message is quite plain. Vladimir Putin would

4:51

never have invaded, as he did in

4:53

February 2022, invaded Ukraine if he'd been

4:55

in office. He also suggested that Hamas

4:57

would never have launched that murderous assault

4:59

on southern Israel in October, 2023, if

5:01

he'd been in office. And many American

5:03

voters do appear to believe that Joe

5:06

Biden represented a weak America. Well, let's

5:08

start with Ukraine. Of course we can't

5:10

do counterfactuals. Who knows what would have

5:12

happened if Trump had been president. But

5:14

what did Trump say when Putin invaded?

5:16

He said he thought it was a

5:19

good thing. He said that it was

5:21

beautiful to see what Russia was doing.

5:23

So I think it's equally plausible that

5:25

if Putin had decided he was going

5:27

to take Ukraine, he'd be sitting in

5:29

Kiev today. He is not sitting in

5:32

keep today because Joe Biden rallied 50

5:34

nations to supply Ukraine with what they

5:36

needed to stop Putin from taking over

5:38

that country and wiping it off the

5:40

map. Everyone predicted, including people probably on

5:42

your show, that Russia was going to

5:45

take Ukraine in a week or two

5:47

weeks. It didn't happen. Before we go

5:49

deeper into the detail of what you

5:51

did and what you didn't do, one

5:53

difficult question. As one of the people

5:55

closest to Joe Biden over four long

5:57

years, why did you not confront the

6:00

fact much? earlier that he was aging

6:02

in a way which meant he was

6:04

not a credible effective candidate to run

6:06

again. So the first thing that I

6:08

would say is I saw Joe Biden

6:10

in the situation room and in the

6:13

Oval Office on a regular basis and

6:15

I saw that. in April of 2024

6:17

when Iran rained missiles down on Israel.

6:19

I saw it in October of 2024

6:21

when they did so again. And I

6:23

saw President Biden not only manage the

6:26

American response, where we directly defended Israel,

6:28

but also organize a coalition of countries

6:30

and coordinate closely with the Israeli defenders

6:32

themselves. I got to see that in

6:34

action, on a regular basis, throughout my

6:36

time. Right. Now. Other people are able

6:38

to make their judgments about Joe Biden

6:41

as a candidate. He did interviews. This

6:43

is pretty simple stuff. I mean, we

6:45

all switched our TVs on in June

6:47

of 2024 and watched him in debate

6:49

with Donald Trump when frankly it was

6:51

difficult to watch. It was deeply embarrassing

6:54

from the point of view of Joe

6:56

Biden and his team. Are you telling

6:58

me that that just came out of

7:00

nowhere? What I'm telling you is that

7:02

was an extremely surprising moment for you,

7:04

just as it was for me. And

7:07

for everybody else, it was a seismic

7:09

moment. I had not seen that before.

7:11

But also, the world hadn't seen that

7:13

before. He had just done an interview

7:15

on a major American broadcast network, ABC,

7:17

shortly before that. He had just done

7:19

a press conference with Vladimir Zelenski. So

7:22

this was an unusual night, but that

7:24

night... was ultimately what led to the

7:26

decision for him not to choose to

7:28

seek re-election. So no regrets from you

7:30

about not confronting that issue. Look, my

7:32

job as national security buzzer was to

7:35

advise the President of the United States

7:37

to coordinate the interagency and to do

7:39

everything I could to keep the United

7:41

States safe. I did my job every

7:43

day without fear or favor over my

7:45

four years and I'm proud of the

7:48

job that I did. And when it

7:50

comes to regrets, what about Afghanistan? Because

7:52

I talked a little earlier about the

7:54

image, the perception at least... Trump and

7:56

his supporters had of the Joe Biden

7:58

administration being weak. And if there's one

8:00

key moment... when that message stuck. It

8:03

was right at the beginning of the

8:05

administration when you had to supervise what

8:07

looked at the outside like a deeply

8:09

humiliating chaotic withdrawal from Afghanistan which cost

8:11

American lives and which in essence send

8:13

a signal to the world that the

8:16

United States was defeated. Well, the first

8:18

thing that I would say is we

8:20

had to play the hand that we

8:22

were dealt. And the hand we were

8:24

dealt was the Taliban was in the

8:26

strongest position. It had been in since

8:29

2001. And there were the fewest American

8:31

troops in Afghanistan since 2001. And under

8:33

a deal that Donald Trump cut, we

8:35

had to be out of Afghanistan by

8:37

May 1st. So when you didn't have

8:39

to stick to that deal. That was

8:41

the deal that the United States had

8:44

set out and the alternative. You could

8:46

have changed it. It's a very fair

8:48

point. It's a very fair point. The

8:50

alternative to that deal was adding more

8:52

troops and restarting a war with more

8:54

Americans, fighting and dying in Afghanistan for

8:57

years on end, and President Biden was

8:59

determined not to do that. Now, of

9:01

course there was challenge, and of course

9:03

there was tragedy with the loss of

9:05

13 Americans. Two thousand four hundred and

9:07

sixty plus Americans lost their lives in

9:10

Afghanistan over 20 years. President Biden was

9:12

not going to send more Americans to

9:14

fight neither, and I would argue that

9:16

the United States is better off not

9:18

still fighting a war in Afghanistan today.

9:20

on Ukraine, do you regret that you

9:22

didn't supply a whole host of potent

9:25

weapon systems to Ukraine earlier in order

9:27

for them to be more effective in

9:29

pushing back against Putin's invasion force? I'm

9:31

thinking for example about the long long

9:33

protracted decision-making over providing F-16s, providing Abrams

9:35

tanks, providing the Attacham's missile systems, even

9:38

sufficient artillery shells to allow Ukraine to

9:40

launch a massive ground offensive, do you

9:42

regret... that you didn't give the Ukrainians

9:44

what they wanted when they wanted it.

9:46

First I think it's important just to

9:48

set a baseline here which is that

9:51

the United States mobilized a coalition of

9:53

countries around the world to supply a

9:55

remarkable eye-popping amount of military material so

9:57

that Ukraine could defend its territory and

9:59

stop the Russians. and the urgency. I

10:01

can wait for saying, but... But Stephen,

10:03

I think we just have to start

10:06

from the right baseline, which is a

10:08

baseline beyond anyone's expectations at the start

10:10

of the war, of the scope and

10:12

scale of support to supply to Ukraine.

10:14

But I just, let's take one example

10:16

of the various systems you just... identified.

10:19

F-16s. Joe Biden authorized F-16s to be

10:21

transferred to Ukraine in May of 2023.

10:23

You and I are sitting here today

10:25

in February of 2025. Ukraine has 18

10:27

F-16s and 16 pilots and they're being

10:29

used for defensive purposes. So the suggestion

10:32

that and F16 cents six months earlier

10:34

or five or ten would have changed

10:36

the course of this war I don't

10:38

think is borne out by the evidence.

10:40

So from my perspective I think you

10:42

can go back and say what about

10:44

this weapon system or that? I think

10:47

there are reasonable debates about those things.

10:49

What I don't think is reasonable is

10:51

to draw from that some notion that

10:53

the war would have taken a fundamentally

10:55

different course. And I believe that what

10:57

the Biden administration did in supporting Ukraine

11:00

while not sending American troops to fight

11:02

and keeping this war from spilling over

11:04

to other places was a moment of

11:06

American leadership and strength that has stopped

11:08

Putin from being able to succeed in

11:10

his mission in Ukraine. You know many

11:13

Ukrainiansians, and I've spoken to senior officials

11:15

who said this to me, believe that

11:17

essentially... what you did was provide just

11:19

enough equipment to make sure Ukraine didn't

11:21

lose, but not enough to ensure that

11:23

Ukraine could win. And they are deeply

11:25

resentful about that. I don't accept that

11:28

characterization. I believe that we took every

11:30

dollar that was appropriated by the US

11:32

Congress, and we spent every dollar in

11:34

service of giving Ukraine what it needed

11:36

to be able to fight in this

11:38

war. Let me talk about NATO membership,

11:41

because in a moment we'll talk about

11:43

what Donald Trump is saying, but let's

11:45

just begin with what Joe Biden said.

11:47

Biden in June 2024 said, peace looks

11:49

like making sure Russia never, never occupies

11:51

Ukraine. That is what peace looks like.

11:54

It doesn't mean NATO for Ukraine, that

11:56

they are going to be part of

11:58

NATO. So Joe Biden basically told the

12:00

Ukrainian. they are not going to have

12:02

a future in NATO. Do you regret

12:04

that? Well, what President Biden said, he

12:06

said, alongside the other 31 leaders in

12:09

NATO at the Washington summit in June

12:11

here, and it was that Ukraine's future

12:13

is in NATO, and we need to

12:15

build a bridge from here to there

12:17

by providing them with sufficient security commitments.

12:19

I think that was the right policy.

12:22

That is the statement that NATO put

12:24

out that summer led by President Biden

12:26

who negotiated that statement. And I think

12:28

that's the right place to be. I

12:30

just like your take on what's happening

12:32

now, because as we speak to each

12:35

other, Donald Trump has just declared that

12:37

he's had a long telephone chat with

12:39

Vladimir Putin. He's looking forward to a

12:41

meeting with Vladimir Putin very soon. He

12:43

says he has informed Zilenski about very

12:45

positive developments that he Trump has made

12:47

with Putin with regard to talking peace.

12:50

And the new defense secretary. Pete Hexaf

12:52

has said that the putative plan looks

12:54

like this. The line of conflict will

12:56

be frozen. It seems the United States

12:58

has no intention of providing any security

13:01

guarantees itself to Ukraine, but we'll

13:03

expect the Europeans to do that.

13:05

There'll be no NATO membership. And

13:07

in essence, there's no way Ukraine

13:10

can expect to get back the

13:12

territory that held before 2014. What's

13:14

your take on the Trump message? You

13:16

know in the US we have a

13:18

phrase called armchair quarterbacks. It's somebody who

13:20

sits on the couch and questions what

13:22

the quarterback is doing and you know

13:24

I've obviously had to deal with a

13:26

lot of armchair quarterbacks from my four

13:28

years in office. A lot of your

13:30

questions have been kind of armchair quarterback

13:32

questions. I'm going to refrain for the

13:35

moment from being an armchair quarterback, because

13:37

I know how hard it is to

13:39

try to negotiate with Russia over this

13:41

issue, and I know what Russia's demands

13:43

are, and they are extreme. But this

13:45

looks like asking Ukraine to accept defeat,

13:47

and again, it's this idea of whether

13:49

you have a sense of failure right

13:52

now. You didn't want to get to

13:54

this position, did you? Well, first of

13:56

all, what Trump chooses to do as

13:58

we go forward, have handed Trump the

14:01

opportunity should he choose to take

14:03

it to have a lot of

14:05

leverage to press on Russia to

14:07

end up with a fair negotiated

14:09

outcome in this war. Zilenski himself

14:11

has said the war has to

14:13

end through diplomacy and the question

14:15

now is whether Trump will use

14:18

that leverage to produce a good

14:20

deal or will pull the rug

14:22

out from under Ukraine. I hope

14:24

he chooses to use the leverage

14:26

and show his staying power on

14:28

behalf of Ukraine. Let's switch to

14:30

Gaza and the... terrible loss of

14:32

life that ensued after Hamas's murderous

14:34

attack on October 7, 2023 and

14:36

Israel's massive military response. In January,

14:38

2024, the Secretary of State, Anthony

14:41

Blinkin, told Israel that the civilian

14:43

death toll in Gaza was, quote,

14:45

far too high. He demanded that

14:47

Israel also allow aid to be

14:49

delivered much more effectively. President Biden,

14:51

the following month, delivered pretty much

14:53

the exact same message. Israel completely

14:55

ignored this notion that they had

14:57

to change tack when it came

14:59

to the assault on Gaza. That

15:01

was a failure of America, wasn't

15:04

it? To influence Israel. Well, let's

15:06

start with your mention of humanitarian

15:08

assistance because you said that we

15:10

were unable to get Israel to

15:12

do anything I think was I

15:14

didn't say anything You didn't get

15:16

Israel to deliver aid in the

15:18

way that you said was required

15:20

when we started in October after

15:22

this murderous savage massacre of Jews

15:24

the largest massacre of the Jewish

15:27

people since the Holocaust. Let's not

15:29

forget how this all began and

15:31

what Israel was contending trying to

15:33

deal with Hamas hiding among a

15:35

civilian population in Gaza. They had

15:37

an unprecedented military challenge and an

15:39

added burden to try to fight

15:41

this war against determined terrorist enemies.

15:43

So I think it's important to

15:45

lay that down for your viewers.

15:47

But on the question of humanitarian

15:50

assistance, in the early weeks, the

15:52

answer from Israel was none. We

15:54

will not provide humanitarian assistance. We

15:56

will open no cross. And over

15:58

the course of many months, there

16:00

was the question of whether a

16:02

massive famine would break out in

16:04

Gaza. It was because of the

16:06

Biden administration, the United States, individuals

16:08

banging away at this issue that

16:10

led to a flow of humanitarian

16:13

assistance, which was never enough. As

16:15

it isn't enough in many conflict

16:17

zones around the world, but which

16:19

did fundamentally alter. what got into

16:21

Gaza in the way of life-saving,

16:23

sustaining food, water, medicine, and the

16:25

like. And I think that that

16:27

is something that is a result

16:29

of determined American diplomacy. On your

16:31

watch, do you believe Israel in

16:33

the way it prosecuted its war

16:36

violated international humanitarian law? What I

16:38

believe is that Israel was up

16:40

against an unbelievable challenge, fighting against

16:42

Hamas. A simple answer. So we

16:44

put this question to American lawyers

16:46

who had to look at the

16:48

question and they did not draw

16:50

conclusions with respect to war crimes.

16:52

Did too many civilians die in

16:54

Gaza? Yes, absolutely. Did the Palestinian

16:56

people go through hell? Did the

16:59

Israeli people also go through hell?

17:01

Yes, and there's a tremendous tragedy

17:03

here, but at the end of

17:05

the day, our goal is... to

17:07

stand up for Israel's security and

17:09

right to defend itself and to

17:11

speak out on behalf of... a

17:13

better future for the Palestinian people

17:15

as well as the Israeli people.

17:17

That is what we did. Did

17:19

it make any difference to you

17:22

as national security advisor when senior

17:24

officials in your government like Harrison

17:26

Mann, a former U.S. Army major

17:28

who was in the Defense Intelligence

17:30

Agency, resigned saying the nearly unqualified

17:32

support for the government of Israel

17:34

which has enabled and empowered the

17:36

killing and starvation of tens of

17:38

thousands of innocent Palestinians has... both

17:40

been unacceptable and also encourages reckless

17:42

escalation. Did that make any difference

17:45

to you? Look, a lot of

17:47

people of good faith had views

17:49

on this policy. Some of them

17:51

were in government, some of them

17:53

were out of government. Many of

17:55

them are people I respect deeply.

17:57

One of the arguments that's one

17:59

of the arguments some of these

18:01

folks made was you just cut

18:03

off weapons to Israel She cut

18:05

him off because they're doing things

18:08

that we don't like My answer

18:10

to that question and the reason

18:12

president Biden did not do so

18:14

is Israel wasn't just fighting a

18:16

war in Gaza It was being

18:18

attacked by his Bala It was

18:20

being attacked by the Houthis. It

18:22

was being attacked by militia groups

18:24

in Iraq and Syria and it

18:26

was being attacked by Iran itself

18:28

all at once So no, President

18:31

Biden was not prepared to follow

18:33

the advice of people like the

18:35

gentleman you just referred to and

18:37

cut off weapons. A final point

18:39

on this, and again as national

18:41

security advisor with, you know, a

18:43

global sort of policy remit, were

18:45

you aware and are you aware

18:47

of the problem the United States

18:49

now has as seen from the

18:51

outside as being... Essentially, a practitioner

18:54

of hypocrisy and double standards when

18:56

it comes to international law. For

18:58

example, the International Criminal Court indicted

19:00

Vladimir Putin. You welcome that. You

19:02

said that that was the right

19:04

thing to do and Putin should

19:06

be answerable for his crimes. When

19:08

the same court indicted Mr. Netanyahu

19:10

and defense minister Galand, your administration

19:12

described that as outrageous. I believe

19:14

that there is no comparison between

19:17

Russia's brutal invasion. of Ukraine in

19:19

flavor and contravention. Well, you're talking

19:21

about double standards. These are totally

19:23

different things, and therefore we should

19:25

treat them differently. And I would

19:27

not treat. Putin's invasion of Russia

19:29

and Israel's response to a brutal

19:31

and savage massacre by Hamas and

19:33

Hamas's continued desire to wipe Israel

19:35

off the face of the earth

19:37

as like. I treat them as

19:40

differently. We did treat them as

19:42

differently. Nobody's saying they can't be

19:44

different. It's just a question of

19:46

respecting international law and respecting international

19:48

institutions like the ICC. If international

19:50

institutions take actions that I think

19:52

are not... justified by the circumstances

19:54

we're going to speak out on

19:56

it. And let's get to Donald

19:58

Trump and the Middle East. It's

20:00

plain with his vision of two

20:03

minutes. Palestinian Palestinians being moved out

20:05

of Gaza, the creation of some

20:07

sort of real estate fantasy, a

20:09

Riviera of the Middle East, it's

20:11

clear that he has abandoned the

20:13

policies that you pursued with regard

20:15

to Gaza and a future. You've

20:17

always peddled the two-state solution as

20:19

the only solution. What do you believe it

20:22

will mean for the region if Trump goes

20:24

ahead with this plan? To be honest with

20:26

you, I just think it's too early to

20:28

speculate. Obviously I believe in the two-state solution

20:31

and I don't believe in evicting two million

20:33

people from their homes. But what actually is

20:35

going to happen in Gaza, just in the

20:37

coming days, let alone in the coming weeks

20:40

and months, there's too much uncertainty for me

20:42

to speculate on the future. So I will

20:44

watch and see what happens. You make a

20:47

fair point, but what you do know very

20:49

well is the government of Egypt, the

20:51

government of Jordan, you've worked with them

20:53

for the last four years. any world

20:56

in which they would accept participation in

20:58

this kind of plan? I mean, I

21:00

don't have to imagine, not imagine, they

21:02

both spoken to it. King Abdullah and

21:05

President Cicea both said that they do

21:07

not accept the notion of moving two

21:09

million Palestinians out of Gaza. Before

21:11

we end, just a big thought

21:13

about... the vision you brought to

21:15

foreign policy and national security policy

21:18

in the United States. You said

21:20

you wanted to pursue a policy

21:22

for the middle class, to persuade

21:24

Americans that your kind of foreign

21:26

policy approach was actually going to

21:28

be of real benefit to them.

21:30

Again, coming back to the election

21:32

result, do you believe in that sense you

21:34

failed? I think there was a leap in

21:37

your question which I just don't quite accept.

21:39

You said, you know, I wanted to pursue

21:41

a foreign policy for the middle class. True.

21:43

You said I wanted to do it basically

21:45

for political reasons, i.e. to get a political

21:47

benefit. Not true. I wanted to do it because

21:49

I think it's the right thing. American foreign policy

21:52

at the end of the day, what is it

21:54

for? It should be for making the lives of

21:56

working people in America better, easier and safer. Do

21:58

I believe that over four? did that. I actually do

22:00

believe believe that, and I think we've given

22:02

Donald Trump a good hand to play when

22:05

it it comes to the core strength of

22:07

the American manufacturing base, innovation when it comes supply

22:09

chains, of when it comes to the strength

22:11

of our alliances, to and when it comes

22:13

to the fundamental of of our adversaries and

22:15

competitors. I think these are good things. I

22:17

also think it's good that we hand

22:19

off a situation where Donald Trump is not

22:21

picking up a war that America is

22:23

fighting in as every previous president in the

22:26

century has had to do, including Joe

22:28

Biden. do, including Joe my perspective, my this is about

22:30

substance. It's not about politics. I also

22:32

think foreign policy for the middle class will

22:34

be measured over a decade, over a not

22:36

over a single election cycle. And I think

22:38

I we continue down the track of the

22:40

investments we've made we've made the core sources

22:42

of American strength, the things we have set

22:44

in motion, if those keep going for

22:47

the next decade, America will be better off.

22:49

And I would submit submit. the world will

22:51

be better off to have a strong America

22:53

in that regard. Jake Sullivan, we we have to

22:55

end you Thank you very much for joining me.

22:57

Thanks for having me. me.