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I will come back to Russia, I

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will participate in the

1:00

elections. There's an increase in violence

1:02

according to the coca crop. There

1:04

is no place in the world

1:06

where women are equal. I will

1:08

give away the vast majority of

1:11

my money and my full-time focus

1:13

for the rest of my life. In

1:15

this episode I speak to the

1:17

former Archbishop of Canterbury, the leader

1:19

of the Church of England, and

1:22

symbolic head of the

1:24

Anglican community, a worldwide body.

1:26

with more than 85 million

1:28

worshippers. Justin Welby presided

1:30

not just over the church, but

1:33

over some of the biggest events

1:35

in the commonwealth of the

1:37

last decade, including the funeral of

1:40

her late majesty, Queen Elizabeth II.

1:42

It was a beautiful sunny day.

1:44

I was standing at the door

1:46

of Westminster Hall, waiting for the

1:48

coffin, and you heard from the

1:50

distance, the cheers, and then, as

1:52

it got closer of the size,

1:54

the groans almost. But his tenure

1:56

was clouded and eventually brought to

1:59

an end. by an abuse scandal

2:01

that shook the church. Barrister

2:03

John Smyth, who died in

2:06

South Africa in 2018, abused

2:08

more than a hundred children

2:10

and young men in the

2:12

UK and Africa in the

2:15

1970s and 1980s. He met

2:17

many of the young men

2:19

he abused at Christian summer

2:21

camps. By 2013, the Church

2:24

of England knew at the

2:26

highest level about Smyth's abuse,

2:28

including Mr. Welby, who'd become

2:31

Archbishop that year. An independent

2:33

report suggested if the church

2:35

had pursued Smythe more vigorously

2:37

early on, he could have

2:40

been brought to justice years

2:42

before. Days after the damning

2:44

report was published in November

2:46

2024, Justin Welby quit. So,

2:49

welcome to the interview from

2:51

the BBC World Service with

2:53

Justin Welby, the former Archbishop

2:56

of Canterbury, who made history

2:58

for all the wrong reasons.

3:00

It's the first time that

3:02

you've spoken like this since

3:05

you made the decision to

3:07

resign. Why did you go?

3:09

I went, as I said

3:11

at the time, out of

3:14

a sense of both personal

3:16

responsibility for shortcomings during my

3:18

time and my own shortcomings,

3:20

and out of a sense

3:23

of institutional responsibility for the

3:25

long term revelations of... cover

3:27

up and failure over a

3:30

long period. But when an

3:32

official report said that you

3:34

could and should have done

3:36

more to take action against

3:39

the abuser in the church,

3:41

John Smyth, who abused more

3:43

than a hundred young people,

3:45

at first you tried to

3:48

stay on, and it was

3:50

later that you resigned. So

3:52

what changed your mind? What

3:54

changed my mind was having

3:57

been caught by the report

3:59

being leaked, being leaked being

4:01

leaked, being leaked being leaked,

4:04

being leaked being leaked, being

4:06

leaked, being leaked being leaked,

4:08

being leaked being leaked, being

4:10

leaked. and not really thought

4:13

it through. enough to be

4:15

honest. Over that weekend as

4:17

I reread it and reread

4:19

it and as I reflected

4:22

on the horrible suffering of

4:24

the survivors which had been

4:26

as many of them said

4:28

more than doubled by the

4:31

institutional church's failure to respond

4:33

adequately it increasingly became clear

4:35

to that I needed to

4:38

resign. What exactly do you

4:40

think you did wrong? I

4:42

think I was not sufficiently

4:44

pushy in a way that

4:47

I would have been a

4:49

few years later. I have

4:51

first heard about smith's offences

4:53

in August of 2013. I'd

4:56

been in post-11 weeks. And

4:59

safeguarding had been the

5:01

crisis I hadn't foreseen.

5:03

I didn't realize how

5:05

bad it was. And

5:07

we didn't see all

5:09

the details till 2017.

5:11

I should have pushed

5:13

harder because I knew

5:15

enough to know that

5:17

people very rarely, almost

5:19

never, abused once. I

5:21

should have said, are

5:23

we absolutely sure there's

5:25

no one else involved?

5:27

But why didn't you,

5:29

I mean this was

5:31

2013, the police had

5:33

got involved, the previously

5:35

been high-profile prosecutions even

5:37

of clergy in the

5:39

2000s? We're not talking

5:41

about the 1950s, the

5:43

1960s, the kind of

5:46

era in this country

5:48

when people just didn't

5:50

talk about this kind

5:52

of thing. Why didn't

5:54

you care enough? I

5:56

wasn't curious enough. Well,

5:58

you said previously, I

6:00

didn't. care sufficiently. You

6:02

didn't care sufficiently about

6:04

young people paying their

6:06

views. On that first

6:08

report, that's a very

6:10

fair comeback. On that

6:12

report, you're right. One

6:14

thing was the rules

6:16

of the time said

6:18

that cases are investigated

6:20

by the dialysis where

6:22

they're reported. The second

6:24

thing was the police

6:26

said, don't interfere. A

6:28

few years later, I

6:30

would have pushed harder.

6:32

That's the technical reason.

6:34

The other reason was

6:36

actually I was finding

6:38

that every day more

6:40

cases were coming across

6:42

the desk that had

6:44

been in the past,

6:46

hadn't been dealt with

6:48

adequately, and this was

6:50

just, it was another

6:52

case. And yes, I

6:54

knew Smyth, but you

6:56

can't. It

7:00

was an absolutely overwhelming few

7:02

weeks. Now, that's not an

7:04

excuse. It's a reason. It's

7:07

not an excuse. But the

7:09

police had been called. And

7:12

their allegations of abuse being

7:14

carried out by someone, you

7:16

knew. You'd been warned years

7:19

before in a different context

7:21

that he wasn't a nice

7:23

man. It was overwhelming when

7:26

was trying to prioritize, and

7:28

we knew with Peter Ball.

7:30

that there were numerous victims

7:33

and survivors, one of whom,

7:35

one of the victims had

7:37

committed suicide. That was so

7:40

horrific and it seemed so

7:42

much bigger. But I think

7:45

it's easy to sound defensive

7:47

over this. The reality is

7:49

I got it wrong. I

7:52

did not do, as Archbishop,

7:54

there are no excuses. Being

7:56

overwhelmed is a reason it

7:59

doesn't an excuse. Some of

8:01

the victims of John Smyth

8:03

think that you were tone

8:06

deaf, you took years to

8:08

meet them, you didn't follow

8:10

up that allegation even though

8:13

you knew the police were

8:15

involved. I certainly since then

8:18

with the victims of Smyth

8:20

that I'd met and I'd

8:22

met them before back in

8:25

2020 or 2021 on an

8:27

online thing because it was

8:29

COVID, I said sorry and

8:32

certainly as I've met the

8:34

ones who wanted to meet

8:36

me. I have said sorry

8:39

very much and I just

8:41

for the avoidance of doubt

8:43

I am utterly sorry and

8:46

feel a deep sense of

8:48

personal failure both for the

8:51

victims of Smyth not being

8:53

picked up sufficiently after 2017

8:55

when we knew the extent

8:58

of it. and for my

9:00

own personal failures. The victims

9:02

of Smyth and indeed other

9:05

abusers in the church feel

9:07

that the culture was significantly

9:09

to blame for the fact

9:12

that they weren't taken seriously.

9:14

And the fact that when

9:16

you made your speech in

9:19

Parliament, you cracked some jokes,

9:21

you talked about being technically

9:24

in charge, when you were

9:26

in charge, You talked about

9:28

ahead having to roll. That

9:31

caused profound upset. It did

9:33

cause profound upset and I

9:35

am profoundly ashamed of that

9:38

and I apologize within 24

9:40

hours and I remain deeply

9:42

ashamed. It's one of those

9:45

moments where when I think

9:47

of it I just wince.

9:49

It was entirely wrong and

9:52

entirely inexcusable. What were you

9:54

thinking? What were you thinking?

9:58

I wasn't in a good

10:00

space. at the time I

10:02

shouldn't have done a valedictory

10:04

speech at all. Because some

10:06

victims believe actually the fact

10:08

that for whatever reason you

10:11

saw fit to joke about

10:13

what had happened in public

10:15

is revealing of the problem

10:17

all along, is that senior

10:19

people in the church, for

10:21

many years, just haven't got

10:23

it. And the church tactic

10:26

is deny, delay, sometimes even

10:28

denounce. The victims? I absolutely

10:30

understand why they should think

10:32

that. It's not the case.

10:34

A lot has changed. I

10:36

mean, just, when I first

10:38

heard about Smyth, what I

10:41

did do, and the other

10:43

cases, was to say we

10:45

must have a system that

10:47

puts a stop to this.

10:49

There's still no mandatory reporting.

10:51

In the church, there's still

10:53

not a fully independent safeguarding

10:56

system which you know many

10:58

people believe. The only way

11:00

to put this in order

11:02

is to say, the church

11:04

can't handle this, you need

11:06

to get an outside organization.

11:08

And you would know from

11:11

looking back over what I've

11:13

said, that I am entirely

11:15

in favour of independent safeguarding.

11:17

And you were the boss

11:19

for more than 10 years

11:21

and it didn't happen. It

11:23

didn't happen because you have

11:26

to get it through the

11:28

general syned. So why don't

11:30

they want it? Why they're

11:32

resistant? And I think a

11:34

lot of people will be

11:36

wondering not just about what

11:38

happened in your time in

11:41

church, but what is it

11:43

more generally about religious organizations

11:45

that find problems of abuse

11:47

when they emerge so hard

11:49

to deal with? It's a

11:51

very fair question. I think

11:53

first of all... The Archbishop

11:55

of Canterbury is not the

11:58

Chief Executive of the Church

12:00

of England PLC. You can't

12:02

make things change by saying

12:04

this will now happen. Otherwise,

12:06

we'd have had independence. safeguarding

12:08

when I first raised it

12:10

in 2016. Most vicar are

12:13

doing a wonderful job, the

12:15

overwhelming majority. 35,000 social projects,

12:17

which the vicar will be

12:19

involved in, working every hour

12:21

that there is, that in

12:23

a growing church, the church

12:25

has grown over the last

12:28

few years. And it is

12:30

very, very hard and you'd

12:32

know this from within. organizations

12:34

where you've worked, including your

12:36

own. You hear something, you

12:38

think that him? It's always

12:40

a him, almost. That can't

12:43

be true. And is that

12:45

what you thought when you

12:47

heard about John Smith? Oh,

12:49

absolutely not. No. I totally

12:51

believed that this was, I

12:53

mean, as is quite well

12:55

known, I had a fairly...

12:58

difficult upbringing. I'm well experienced

13:00

personally on the issues of

13:02

abuse and I always start

13:04

that when someone declares abuse,

13:06

divulges abuse, my rule did

13:08

you always take it seriously.

13:10

And yet you've just said

13:13

you believed it and you

13:15

knew the police were involved

13:17

and then yet you still

13:19

didn't follow it up. That's

13:21

what makes this so extraordinary.

13:24

If you have a message

13:27

from the police saying under

13:29

no circumstances are you to

13:32

get involved because you will

13:34

contaminate our inquiry. Checking up

13:36

on what happened next. As

13:39

I said I should have

13:41

done that. I should have

13:44

pestered them to be honest.

13:46

And I see that now.

13:49

I mean you're quite right

13:51

to raise the point. people

13:54

shaping our world from all

13:56

over the world. With me,

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Laura Kunsberg. Hello,

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it is Ryan, and we could

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of the turn of history.

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Let us commend to the

15:29

mercy of God, our Maker

15:32

and Redeemer, the soul of

15:34

Elizabeth, our late queen, and

15:37

particularly the service and the

15:39

service of St. George's and

15:42

the arrival of the coffin

15:44

for the lying in state,

15:46

and hearing the crowd's sighing.

15:49

as the coffin went past

15:51

them. It was a beautiful

15:54

sunny day. I was standing

15:56

at the door of Westminster

15:59

Hall. for the coffin and

16:01

you heard from the distance

16:03

the cheers and then as

16:06

it got closer the size

16:08

the groans almost. Coronation I

16:11

mean the greatest privilege one

16:13

could ever ask for was

16:16

to be involved in that.

16:18

God save the king! The

16:21

most significant moment of that

16:23

service for me was the

16:25

anointing which of course was

16:28

behind the screen. and

16:33

what went through your

16:36

mind at that moment.

16:38

An overwhelming sense of

16:40

the presence of God

16:42

by the Holy Spirit

16:44

and of the weight

16:46

that we were laying

16:48

as a nation on

16:51

the King's shoulders, the

16:53

weight of responsibility, and

16:55

the need for God

16:57

to anoint him, to

16:59

hold him, to strengthen

17:01

him. You were

17:04

in charge of the church

17:06

for more than 10 years.

17:08

There were vigorous conversations during

17:10

that time about same-sex relationships

17:13

and about women. As we

17:15

talk today, women can still

17:17

be refused by some parishes

17:19

and gay people still can't

17:21

have the same kind of

17:24

celebration in a church as

17:26

straight people. They can't have

17:28

a legal marriage in the

17:30

church of England. blessing in

17:33

every church. Yeah. In what

17:35

way then can people look

17:37

at that and think the

17:39

church reflects the modern UK

17:41

where both women and gay

17:44

people are treated as second-class

17:46

citizens? The Church of England

17:48

is one part of 85

17:50

million people in 165 countries

17:53

with over 2,000. cultures and

17:55

languages. The average Anglican is

17:57

a woman in her 30s

17:59

in Sub-Saharan Africa are on

18:02

less than four dollars a

18:04

day, a woman. The changes

18:06

have been enormous. So coming

18:08

back to the UK, I'm

18:10

not trying to avoid your

18:13

question, I'm trying to put

18:15

it in context, coming back

18:17

to the UK, if I

18:19

were say to you, do

18:22

you agree on everything with

18:24

all of your extended family?

18:26

I suspect you'd say... No,

18:28

because I don't know anyone

18:31

who'd say yes, and be

18:33

honest. The church is not

18:35

a self-selecting club. It is

18:37

the family of Christ. It

18:39

is God's family. And we

18:42

disagree amongst each other, but

18:44

that doesn't stop us being

18:46

family. And the role of

18:48

the Archbishop and of the

18:51

bishops is to allow people

18:53

to remain... in the family

18:55

without totally dismissing standards that

18:57

are essential. But in that

19:00

family, as it stands, gay

19:02

people and women might be

19:04

entitled to think they're not

19:06

as welcome, they're not equal

19:08

members of the family, and

19:11

some people also in the

19:13

church might feel that it

19:15

was more of the Archbishop's

19:17

role to lead this rather

19:20

than... to fudge it in

19:22

order to try to keep

19:24

that family together? What do

19:26

you say to that? I

19:29

would say there's a practical

19:31

political reason. You have to

19:33

get it through the general

19:35

synod of the Church of

19:37

England. So are they out

19:40

of date? I'm not saying

19:42

that. I'm saying they have

19:44

very different views. And there

19:46

isn't a big enough majority

19:49

to get it through. You

19:51

need a two-thirds majority under

19:53

the rules parliament set. and

19:55

we wouldn't have got women

19:58

bishops through if we hadn't

20:00

made provision. for those who

20:02

on theological grounds have a different

20:05

view. Is it disappointing

20:07

to you though as

20:09

somebody who wanted that

20:11

to happen? Yes. So you

20:13

left the job

20:16

disappointed at the... Yes. Yes.

20:18

So what does Justin

20:20

well be do next? Move

20:22

house as soon as we

20:24

get through the process. Downsize

20:27

as we throw away... 45

20:29

years of married clutter.

20:31

And I suppose in my

20:34

ideal world, I would like

20:36

to focus very much

20:38

on mediation and reconciliation

20:40

in this country and

20:42

abroad, which I've done

20:45

for over 20 years.

20:47

I would love to

20:49

be more involved in

20:51

that and never after

20:54

today to be on

20:56

telly again. That's

20:59

interesting. We're looking for

21:01

obscurity. I'm looking for

21:03

total obscurity. And let's just

21:05

end then where we began. Your career

21:07

as Archbishop of Canterbury, the

21:10

most senior job anybody in

21:12

your position could have dreamt of

21:14

ended in a very public and

21:16

a very painful way. But you've

21:18

mentioned today and you've written

21:20

and talked before a lot about

21:23

forgiveness. Would you like the victims of

21:25

John Smyth to forgive you? Obviously,

21:28

but it's not about

21:30

me. When we talk about

21:33

safeguarding, the centre

21:35

of it is

21:37

the other victims

21:39

and survivors. I have

21:41

never ever said to

21:44

a survivor, you must

21:46

forgive, because that

21:49

is their sovereign,

21:51

absolute individual choice.

21:54

Everyone wants to

21:56

be forgiven, but

21:58

to demand forgiveness

22:01

is to abuse again.

22:03

And I am so

22:05

ashamed of my own

22:08

failure, and I am

22:10

so sorry, that I

22:12

did not serve the

22:14

victims and survivors, nor

22:16

did the judge, as

22:19

they should have done,

22:21

and I should have

22:23

done. And that's why

22:25

I resigned. The making

22:27

report, though, the official

22:29

report into this does

22:32

suggest it says it's

22:34

really unlikely that you

22:36

didn't know anything before

22:38

2013. You can believe

22:40

it or not. I

22:43

did not have a

22:45

clue. You wrote, to

22:47

forgive is not to

22:49

pretend that nothing's happened.

22:51

It's the opposite. It

22:53

accepts the full weight

22:56

of the wrong. Do

22:58

you forgive John Smyth?

23:00

Yes. I think... if

23:02

he was alive and

23:04

I saw him, but

23:07

it's not me he's

23:09

abused. He's abused the

23:11

victims and survivors. So

23:13

whether I forgive or

23:15

not is, to a

23:17

large extent, irrelevant. What

23:20

matters is are the

23:22

survivors and everyone responds

23:24

differently to abuse. But

23:27

are the survivors sufficiently loved by

23:29

the church and cared for and

23:31

are enabled, liberated to rebuild their

23:34

lives? After that, you can start

23:36

talking about forgiveness. Thank you for

23:38

listening to the interview from the

23:41

BBC World Service, the first conversation

23:43

of its kind, this time with

23:45

the former Archbishop of Canterbury, Justin

23:48

Welby. If you enjoyed today's episode,

23:50

do listen to the interview twice

23:52

a week, wherever you get your

23:55

BBC podcasts. Until the

23:57

next time, bye

23:59

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24:38

now at Chompa casino.com. of

24:40

the family. apply.