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This BBC podcast is supported

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I'm Zing Singh and I'm Simon Jack and

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together we host Good Bad billionaire the

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podcast exploring the lies of some of

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the world's richest people in the new season

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We're setting our sights on some big names.

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Yep LeBron James and Martha Stewart to name

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just a few and as always Simon and

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that's good bad billionaire from the

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BBC world service Listen now wherever you

0:31

get your BBC podcasts Hello,

0:38

I'm Mark Savage, the

0:40

BBC's music correspondent, and

0:42

this is the interview

0:44

from the BBC World

0:46

Service, the best conversations

0:48

coming out of the BBC.

0:50

People shaping our world from all

0:52

over the world. I will come

0:54

back to Russia. I will... participate

0:56

in the elections. There's an increase

0:58

in violence according to the coca

1:00

crop. There's no place in the

1:03

world where women are equal. I

1:05

will give away the vast majority

1:07

of my money and my full-time

1:09

focus for the rest of my life.

1:12

For this interview I met Lady

1:14

Gagga as she launched her new

1:17

album Mayhem in New York You're

1:19

going to hear about art and

1:21

identity being a super fan of

1:23

Elton John and the lack of

1:25

female role models in the

1:27

music industry Born Stephanie Joanne

1:29

Germanata in 1986. She's been

1:31

in the music industry for

1:33

almost two decades and sold

1:35

over 170 million records She's

1:37

an actress as well as

1:39

a vegan cosmetic brand In

1:41

2019, Time magazine named her

1:43

as one of the 100

1:46

most influential people in the

1:48

world. She's constantly been in the

1:50

media spotlight for her extravagant outfits

1:52

and her struggle with celebrity is

1:54

something that she addresses in her

1:56

new work. The most complicated

1:59

thing that was... happening was something

2:01

I was going through with myself

2:03

which is that I had created

2:06

this public persona that I was

2:08

like truly becoming in every way

2:10

and holding the duality of that

2:12

and knowing where you know I

2:15

begin and Lady Gaga ends was

2:17

really like a challenge and and

2:19

and I think that it kind

2:21

of took me down. She's now

2:24

finding audiences with new younger

2:26

fans. Welcome to the interview.

2:28

from the BBC World Service

2:30

with Lady Gaga. Hi Mark. Nice

2:32

to meet you. Nice to meet you too.

2:35

Go for a cup of tea. You love

2:37

a cup of tea with slippery elm I

2:39

believe. I used to but this is

2:41

English breakfast tea. Ah, the classic.

2:43

But listen we're talking to you

2:45

at a moment when things are

2:47

going incredibly well like 123 million

2:49

monthly listeners on Spotify more than

2:52

any female artist ever. Die with

2:54

a smile, a massive hit, a

2:56

massive hit. bringing in new audiences

2:58

as well. Gen Z, Gen Alpha,

3:00

how does all of that feel?

3:02

Was it expected? No, no, no, it's

3:05

never expected. I feel really, really grateful

3:07

and so excited and it's an amazing

3:09

feeling to reach so many people with

3:11

your music and you know when when

3:14

I'm writing in the studio and when

3:16

I'm producing my records and putting it

3:18

all together, the... the joy of it

3:20

is hoping that you will make people

3:23

feel happy. It's not just about them

3:25

liking it, you know, like we'll give

3:27

something to them in their lives. So

3:30

when I see that with Die with

3:32

the Smile and Albuquerque Dabber, like

3:34

I just feel so happy that

3:36

I'm making people feel good. And

3:38

we knew that you had something special

3:40

coming because in Paris last summer,

3:42

you got out of your hotel room

3:45

in a car, stuck your head up

3:47

through the sunroof and played music off

3:49

a laptop. take me through the decision

3:51

to do that. You know, I

3:53

was so, so moved to see

3:55

my fans outside. I mean, there

3:57

was hundreds and hundreds of fans.

4:00

just waiting outside the hotel and

4:02

hadn't seen them in so long.

4:04

And I had all this music

4:06

on my iPad and I just,

4:08

I don't know, I felt like,

4:10

you know, this has been something

4:12

I've done for like almost 20

4:14

years where I played my fans,

4:16

my music way before it came

4:18

out. I used to after. my

4:20

shows like invite fans backstage and

4:22

we would like hang out and

4:24

then play them demos and see

4:26

what they thought of the music

4:28

and it's always been like this

4:31

conversation so I mean you you

4:33

I'm sure you can imagine that

4:35

after 20 years you don't expect

4:37

that people are still going to

4:39

show up to hear your music

4:41

and be excited to see you

4:43

so I just wanted to share

4:45

it with them because I was

4:47

excited they were there. Were you

4:49

ever a fan like that? Did

4:51

you ever wait for someone's autograph

4:53

or stand outside their hotel room?

4:55

Yeah, I mean, Elton John, Billy

4:57

Joel, I was huge fans of

4:59

them growing up and they were

5:01

playing at the garden and I

5:04

waited as long as I could.

5:06

But I got too nervous to

5:08

go over and say hello. I

5:10

actually don't even know if Elton

5:12

knows that story for as long

5:14

as we've known each other. I

5:16

don't know if I've ever told

5:18

him that. What would you have

5:20

said if you had approached them?

5:22

Age 13, age 13? I think

5:24

I probably just would have said

5:26

I like you your music like

5:28

heals the world that I think

5:30

I don't want to bother him

5:32

because he had a show and

5:34

I thought he might be focusing.

5:36

Yes but do you then understand

5:39

the bravery that it takes? for

5:41

someone to come up to you?

5:43

Absolutely. I think like people get,

5:45

I'm sure if they feel nervous,

5:47

but it always warms my heart

5:49

to hear from fans and yeah,

5:51

I mean, but you know, like

5:53

Elton's a real person, I'm a

5:55

real person, and we love making

5:57

people happy, you know, he's a

5:59

legend and you know, I just,

6:01

I'm always trying to work in

6:03

the spirit though of like, like

6:05

I've always viewed him as like

6:07

someone I really look up too

6:09

because when I think of him,

6:12

I don't just think of his

6:14

music, I think of his heart.

6:16

So I hope that I'm always

6:18

also putting my heart into my

6:20

music. I think you definitely do.

6:22

That's what comes across. And we've

6:24

heard, well I've heard today the

6:26

whole album, when this interview goes

6:28

out, it will be the day

6:30

the album comes out. So people

6:32

will be hearing it for the

6:34

first time. You said... When you

6:36

were putting it together, you were

6:38

a little bit nervous about revisiting

6:40

some of the signs from the

6:42

fame, the fame monster from Born

6:44

this way. Why did that make

6:47

you nervous? I think, you know,

6:49

like, as a female artist, I'm

6:51

usually the only woman in the

6:53

room all the time, and that

6:55

was always a huge challenge. over

6:57

like all the years that I've

6:59

been making music. And I think

7:01

I felt when I was younger

7:03

that people try to like to

7:05

kind of take credit for my

7:07

sound or my image or my

7:09

art. And I really wanted to

7:11

kind of revisit my earlier inspiration

7:13

and my career and like sort

7:15

of once and for all own

7:17

it as my invention. Like all

7:20

of my references, all of you

7:22

know, my my imagination of what

7:24

pop music could be that came

7:26

from me. And I was hoping

7:28

that if I could make a

7:30

record like that, I could maybe

7:32

help also inspire people that love

7:34

art and are making their own

7:36

inventions to know that it came

7:38

from them and that like, you

7:40

are the conductor of your own

7:42

symphony. And it's something that you

7:44

can feel proud of, you know,

7:46

no matter kind of what adversity

7:48

comes your way. And you've spoken

7:50

in the past, I heard you

7:52

tell Oprah Winfrey once, that at

7:55

that start of your career, you

7:57

hadn't been able to find a

7:59

female mentor who could advise you

8:01

on how to navigate the industry.

8:03

Is that something that you're now

8:05

trying to give back to the

8:07

younger artists? You know what? I

8:09

don't know that they need that.

8:11

I think that they're doing great

8:13

and they're amazing and if anything

8:15

I'm just like so... happy watching

8:17

them all shine so much. I

8:19

had the best time at the

8:21

Grammys. I thought it was one

8:23

of the best Grammys that had

8:25

ever happened. But of course if

8:28

they ever wanted to talk to

8:30

me about what they might be

8:32

going through I'd be so honored

8:34

and happy to do that of

8:36

course like absolutely. Because there's a

8:38

song on the album Perfect Celebrity

8:40

which talks about what you went

8:42

through at the beginning of your

8:44

career and there's some lyrics I

8:46

wrote them down you hit You

8:48

love to hit me, I'm the

8:50

perfect celebrity, I became a notorious

8:52

being. And that phrase really struck

8:54

me because it's removing the humanity.

8:56

You're not a person, you're a

8:58

being. Is that how it felt?

9:01

2009, 2010. You know, I think

9:03

that song, what you're talking about,

9:05

is probably the most angry song

9:07

about fame that I've ever written

9:09

in my whole career, and I

9:11

feel like it was inside of

9:13

me and ready for me to

9:15

write for this album. I think

9:17

that it was a complicated time.

9:19

I think that for everything that

9:21

I could say about that time

9:23

in my life, the most complicated

9:25

thing that was happening was something

9:27

I was going through with myself,

9:29

which is that I had created

9:31

this. this public persona that I

9:33

was like truly becoming in every

9:36

way and holding the duality of

9:38

that and knowing where you know

9:40

I begin and Lady Gaga ends

9:42

was really like a challenge and

9:44

and and I think that it

9:46

kind of took me down. And

9:48

in that song, I say I've

9:50

become a notorious being find my

9:52

clone, she's asleep on the ceilings.

9:54

Like this idea that there was

9:56

the real me and then the

9:58

public facing me. But I think

10:00

part of mayhem and this whole

10:02

album, the point of it was

10:04

to like address these things. And

10:06

my videos, I'm playing multiple versions

10:09

of myself, I'm battling myself, I'm

10:11

testing myself. I'm showing myself resilience.

10:13

But it's not only about me,

10:15

like I think everybody in some

10:17

way deals with their own sense

10:19

of like a clone of themselves

10:21

now in public, especially with social

10:23

media nowadays. And everybody has a

10:25

stage now. It's very different than

10:27

it was when. when I started

10:29

out. So I know that was

10:31

a long answer. I'm so sorry,

10:33

but it was a deep question.

10:35

And you're right, people do put

10:37

on masks for different situations. At

10:39

what point were you able to

10:41

work out where the dividing line

10:44

became, where the dividing line was

10:46

between Stephanie and Lady Gagga? I

10:48

think what I actually realized is

10:50

that it was healthier to not

10:52

have a dividing line and to

10:54

like integrate those two things into

10:56

one whole human being and the

10:58

healthiest thing for me was just

11:00

like owning that I'm a female

11:02

artist and that living an artistic

11:04

life was my choice that I

11:06

am a lover of songwriting I'm

11:08

a lover of making music, you

11:10

know, playing instruments, rehearsing, choreography, stage

11:12

production, costumes, lighting, putting on a

11:14

show, that is what it means

11:17

to be Lady Gaga. It's the

11:19

artist behind it all. And so

11:21

I think once I stepped away

11:23

from it being like this, like

11:25

the icon of it all, and

11:27

thinking of it more as the

11:29

artist, that was what felt the

11:31

most true to me. And I

11:33

think that there was also me

11:35

growing up, you know, I kind

11:37

of grew up in front of

11:39

my fans, so that's where I've

11:41

grown to, a place of like

11:43

artistry, and also living a full

11:45

life. like being there from my

11:47

friends, being there from my family,

11:49

meeting my amazing fiancé Michael, like

11:52

all of these things made me

11:54

a whole person instead of the

11:56

most important thing to me being

11:58

only my stage persona. You're

12:01

listening to the interview from

12:03

the BBC World Service, people

12:06

shaping our world from all

12:08

over the world. I'm

12:13

Zing Singh and I'm Simon Jack and together

12:15

we host Good Bad billionaire the podcast

12:17

exploring the lies of some of the

12:19

world's richest people in the new season We're

12:21

setting our sights on some big names. Yep

12:23

LeBron James and Martha Stewart to name just

12:26

a few and as always Simon and I

12:28

are trying to decide whether we think they're

12:30

good bad or just another billionaire that's

12:32

good bad billionaire from the BBC

12:35

world service Listen now wherever you get

12:37

your BBC podcasts For

12:43

this episode of the interview I'm

12:45

speaking to Lady Gaga who I

12:47

met in New York for the

12:50

launch of her new album Mayhem.

12:52

I've spoken to her a number

12:54

of times over the years starting

12:56

back in 2008 when she was

12:58

just on the cusp of fame.

13:00

That time she was speaking over

13:02

a scratchy phone line from a

13:04

hotel room in Canada and she

13:06

was interrupted when her room service

13:08

arrived. That led to a five-minute

13:10

discussion of her love of English

13:12

breakfast tea. I must have tea

13:14

time five times a day, just

13:16

like sit down and have tea

13:18

time. I'm like, four men are

13:20

just like, oh, we gotta go.

13:22

I'm like, I need to have

13:24

my tea. But she also said

13:26

something about making music that stuck

13:29

with me ever since. If I

13:31

could say what art is in

13:33

one sentence, it would be, it's

13:35

being private and public. What I've

13:37

learned over the course of our

13:39

conversations is that despite the outrageous

13:41

outfits and the shocking videos, Lady

13:43

Gagga is actually a very quiet,

13:45

thoughtful person who discovered herself through

13:47

the music of people like Elton

13:49

John and John Lennon. She's a

13:51

classically trained pianist who started playing

13:53

at the age of four and

13:55

at heart I think she's a

13:57

bit of a music nerd. That's

13:59

why her songs continue to make

14:01

a... impact. Okay, let's return to

14:03

my conversation with Lady Gagga. So

14:05

you just mentioned your fiancé, is

14:07

that the ring? Yes. Let me

14:10

see. Well, that is a big

14:12

diamond. Thank you. And the musicians

14:14

I know who've got married, there

14:16

are always two questions. What's going

14:18

to be the first song at

14:20

the wedding and will you sing

14:22

at your own wedding? You know

14:24

what? I couldn't possibly give anything

14:26

away about that day because I

14:28

want that to be just for

14:30

me and Michael, but it means

14:32

a lot to me that you

14:34

would ask me that. And I

14:36

will tell you that I can

14:38

promise you it will be the

14:40

most special day of my life.

14:42

Absolutely. And that brings me to

14:44

another thing. You wouldn't remember this,

14:46

but I interviewed you in 2009,

14:48

just as Just Dance was about

14:51

to hit number one in the

14:53

UK. And you told me then

14:55

that you didn't write many love

14:57

songs because you'd never been in

14:59

love. How has that changed with

15:01

this album? Well, it's definitely changed.

15:03

I mean, I don't know that

15:05

Die with a Smile would have

15:07

happened and felt real for me

15:09

in this way without Michael in

15:11

my life. And I also, I

15:13

wrote a song on Mayhem called

15:15

Blade of Grass. He actually proposed

15:17

to me also with these Blades

15:19

of Grass. He asked me. long

15:21

time ago we were in the

15:23

backyard and he said if I

15:25

ever proposed to you what like

15:27

how do I do that and

15:30

I just said just get a

15:32

blade of grass when the back

15:34

backyard and wrap it around my

15:36

finger and that that will make

15:38

me so happy so I wrote

15:40

a song called Blade of Grass

15:42

about that moment and it was

15:44

interesting because in my backyard one

15:46

of my best friends got married

15:48

but she passed away from cancer

15:50

and she was in her early

15:52

40s. There was like so much

15:54

loss. I had lost so many

15:56

friends in a way. My life

15:58

had changed so much. But this

16:00

happy thing was happening for me,

16:02

this amazing thing that I was

16:04

going to have a partner. But

16:06

it was interesting. getting engaged at

16:08

38. I was like also thinking

16:11

like what it took to get

16:13

to this moment. So Michael's very

16:15

present on the record. We wrote

16:17

a lot of songs together for

16:19

the album as well because we're

16:21

with each other all the time

16:23

and you know we we make

16:25

a lot of things together so.

16:27

It was a special experience. Love

16:29

is a big part of mayhem.

16:31

In a way, it's the end

16:33

of mayhem, too. I wanted mayhem

16:35

to have an ending. I wanted

16:37

the chaos to stop. So it

16:39

ends with love. It does end

16:41

with love. Although, it ends with

16:43

love in the apocalypse. You know,

16:45

I think that that's like, that's

16:47

my way, isn't it? Like, I

16:49

always find the tension in the

16:52

moment. But it's meant to be

16:54

like a beautiful sentiment. I think

16:56

sometimes it's reality. that the world

16:58

feels chaotic. It's reality that there

17:00

are real challenges and I'm a

17:02

very, very blessed and lucky person.

17:04

There are so many people that

17:06

are facing so much right now

17:08

in the world. And I just

17:10

like wish for them to have

17:12

love. Yes, and it is a

17:14

theme on this album, but I

17:16

think throughout your discography where when

17:18

you do talk about love, you

17:20

embrace the whole of it, you

17:22

talk about disease or about the

17:24

apocalypse. the fact that you have

17:26

to take the rough with the

17:28

smooth. That feels like that's your

17:31

philosophy. I think so. And also

17:33

that like love is what heals

17:35

us. You know, like love, kindness,

17:37

community, having strong relationships is what

17:39

helps us get through the chaos.

17:41

And I think we experience love

17:43

when we're dancing too. You know,

17:45

like, to me, there are moments

17:47

of mayhem that are like about

17:49

being out with your friends and

17:51

just like completely going numb from

17:53

it all. That's part of it

17:55

too. But there's also some moments

17:57

of reflection of reality. There's one

17:59

lyric where I say, saw your

18:01

face and mind in a picture

18:03

by our bedside. It was cold

18:05

in the summer time. We were

18:07

happy just to be alive. And

18:09

it's this like fun. happy dance

18:12

song, but it has the sadness

18:14

in it. I think that tension

18:16

is real. I think that's part

18:18

of the mayhem. I know that

18:20

is real for me. I'm a

18:22

soft person, but I make hard,

18:24

intense art. You know, that tension,

18:26

that feels like reality to me.

18:28

Yes, we live in a world

18:30

where you have good days, bad

18:32

days, where there are things going

18:34

on that are out of your

18:36

control, but home is where everything

18:38

comes together. That's right. I want

18:40

to ask a question about the

18:42

title mayhem because I'm not stalking

18:44

you on Instagram. I find this

18:46

post, this is from 11 years

18:48

ago, you and your sister. If

18:50

you just read the caption, you

18:53

call yourselves the mistresses of mayhem.

18:55

Yes. Is that something that's been

18:57

perculating in your mind for a

18:59

long time? I think so. And

19:01

on that... post, you're talking about

19:03

your favorite drive from Manchester to

19:05

London. I think a lot of

19:07

our fans would be surprised to

19:09

hear. I love that drive. Yeah?

19:11

I do. I love Manchester. I

19:13

mean, I love the UK. I'm

19:15

like, there's so much like art

19:17

and love and celebration of like,

19:19

people that are different too, you

19:21

know, and I really, really love

19:23

that. I think, you know, I

19:25

was always like... I was always

19:27

different growing up and they just

19:29

kind of stayed with me in

19:32

my whole life. It never really

19:34

changed. I think of that drive

19:36

though and I think of tailbacks.

19:38

And terrible service station means. No,

19:40

I only think of happy things.

19:42

I only think of like seeing

19:44

fans. What would be on the

19:46

car stereo? I'd probably be listening

19:48

to the UK radio, honestly, and

19:50

just like enjoying whatever was like

19:52

happening. Because UK Radio is very

19:54

different, isn't it? We don't stick

19:56

to one genre. Yeah, and it's

19:58

so cool just to like listen

20:00

to what I feel connected to

20:02

people through the radio because it's

20:04

like whatever it's listening to. I

20:06

wanted to ask a little bit

20:08

about films because we've seen you

20:10

recently in, you know, Joker and

20:13

House of Gucci and Star is

20:15

born, of course. You mix that

20:17

up with the music now. Which

20:19

do you think of as your

20:21

main career, your main job? You

20:23

know, I think it's all my

20:25

main job. You know, I think

20:27

that's kind of like what mayhem

20:29

was pushing against as well as

20:31

an album is this idea that

20:33

I was always asked like, could

20:35

you explain your style to me

20:37

or could you explain to me

20:39

like, you know, what your, your

20:41

music, sonically what you're going after

20:43

or like your personal style or

20:45

are you, you know, are you

20:47

an actor or are you a

20:49

singer? And the truth is I'm

20:51

all, I'm all of these things

20:54

and I always have been and

20:56

and it I had to like

20:58

navigate my way through people wanting

21:00

to define me so I'm just

21:02

just just being a gal in

21:04

the art world I just like

21:06

creative in every aspect I like

21:08

to I like to be creative

21:10

so it's a real it's a

21:12

real blessing it's a real honor

21:14

right we're running out of time

21:16

so can I ask you some

21:18

quickfire questions just the first thing

21:20

that comes to your head nothing

21:22

controversial okay have you got a

21:24

tattoo for the new album? meditation

21:26

or treadmill? Oh meditation. What would

21:28

it take for you to headline

21:30

Glastonbury? Not much. Just a fun

21:33

call. Maybe. What's the highest note

21:35

you can sing? Oh I don't

21:37

know. I mean I'd like to

21:39

think I can always sing higher

21:41

if I practice so I don't

21:43

I've never actually I've never actually

21:45

figured that out. Could you go

21:47

full mini-minny represent? I don't know.

21:49

I mean, I could sometimes sing

21:51

flute. I think I have before

21:53

hit like that high e-natural. I

21:55

think it's an e-natural and phantom

21:57

of the opera Andrew Lloyd Weber.

21:59

Whoa. The end. I have done

22:01

that before. That's high. But I

22:03

have to be ready for it.

22:05

It's like a kettle. It is

22:07

certainly a kettle. You're named after

22:09

the Queen's song, Radio Gaga, but

22:11

what is the best Queen's song?

22:14

I mean, for me, it's Bohemian

22:16

Rhapsody. For everybody it is, I

22:18

think. What's your biggest fear? My

22:20

biggest fear. I think my biggest

22:22

fear was doing this by myself.

22:24

This album. Just, you know. Just

22:26

doing life on my own and

22:28

I think that the greatest gift

22:30

has been meeting my partner Michael

22:32

and being in the mayhem with

22:34

him. That's beautiful. Thank you. Two

22:36

more. What's the perfect length for

22:38

a pop song? The perfect length

22:40

for a pop song? Yeah. I

22:42

think whatever length the artist wants

22:44

is the perfect length. Correct answer.

22:46

And what do you want to

22:48

be remembered for? I would like

22:50

to be remembered for how much

22:52

I love the world and making

22:55

people happy. I think Born This

22:57

Way in particular is a song

22:59

that people still after more than

23:01

10 years clasp on to for

23:03

meaning and for a sense of

23:05

self and that's something you've given.

23:07

Thank you. I have Carl Bean

23:09

to thank for inspiring that record

23:11

and you know for me that

23:13

is easily my favorite. song I've

23:15

ever put into the world and

23:17

it's like the most important thing

23:19

I've ever done maybe in my

23:21

whole life and it always will

23:23

be I think. Thank you so

23:25

much for your time. Thank you.

23:27

I really enjoyed the album by

23:29

the way. Thank you. Thank you

23:31

so much. Thank you for listening

23:34

to the interview from the BBC

23:36

World Service. If you enjoyed today's

23:38

programme, you can listen to the

23:40

interview wherever you get your BBC

23:42

podcasts. And to watch my interview

23:44

with Lady Gagga in full technicaler,

23:46

you can find it on the

23:48

interview strand on BBC Eye Player.

23:50

It's called Lady Gagga Inside the

23:52

Chaos. And you'll also find interviews

23:54

with Dio Lippa, Bruce Springsteen and

23:56

Saline Dion there too. Until the

23:58

the next time,

24:00

goodbye for now.

24:14

I'm Zing Singh and I'm Simon Jack and

24:16

together we host Good Bad billionaire the

24:19

podcast exploring the lies of some of

24:21

the world's richest people in the new season

24:23

We're setting our sights on some big names.

24:25

Yep LeBron James and Martha Stewart to name

24:27

just a few and as always Simon and

24:30

I are trying to decide whether we think

24:32

they're good bad or just another billionaire

24:34

that's good bad billionaire from the

24:36

BBC world service Listen now wherever you

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