0:00

to Hard Talk from the

0:02

BBC World Service with me

0:04

Stephen Sacker. My guest in

0:06

this interview recorded on the

0:08

24th of February is a

0:10

Republican member of the US

0:13

House of Representatives with very

0:15

personal reasons to care deeply

0:17

about America's rapidly changing strategy

0:19

in Ukraine. Victoria Sparts

0:21

was born and raised in northern

0:23

Ukraine. She emigrated to the

0:25

United States after falling in love

0:28

with an American midwesterner. 25 years

0:30

ago. She forged a business

0:32

career in her adopted state

0:34

of Indiana and then got

0:36

into politics, espousing a brand

0:38

of conservatism focused on small

0:40

government and low taxes. She's

0:42

now in her third term

0:44

as a Republican congresswoman with

0:46

a reputation for fierce loyalty

0:48

to Donald Trump and his

0:50

MAGA movement. That loyalty

0:52

now faces a big test.

0:54

In his first month in

0:56

office, the president has turned

0:58

U .S. in Ukraine on its

1:00

head. In his pursuit of

1:02

a rapid end to the war,

1:04

begun by Putin's all -out invasion

1:06

of Ukraine three years ago,

1:08

Trump has branded Ukraine's President Zelensky

1:10

a dictator. He's begun

1:12

direct talks with the

1:14

Kremlin without any Ukrainian or

1:16

European representation and handed

1:18

Putin a number of unprompted

1:20

diplomatic gifts. How does

1:23

a Ukrainian -American Republican feel

1:25

about that? And despite her

1:27

sympathy for Donald Trump's desire

1:29

to slash the size and

1:31

cost of the federal government

1:33

is Elon Musk's Department of

1:35

Government Efficiency the right and

1:37

best way to do it.

1:39

Is Congresswoman Spartz all in

1:41

with the Trump agenda wherever

1:44

it's taking America? Well, she

1:46

joins me now on the line

1:48

from Indiana. Welcome to Hard Talk. Thank

1:50

you for having me, Stephen. It's great

1:52

to have you on the show. Let

1:54

me ask you a very simple question.

1:56

Have you been surprised by the speed

1:58

with which President Trump has turned

2:01

U .S.-Ukraine strategy

2:03

upside down? Well,

2:05

I think at least President Trump has

2:07

a strategy. We haven't had a

2:09

strategy how to bring peace and stop

2:11

the war. And it's an inherited

2:13

difficult situation. But President Trump ran on

2:15

being able to deliver results. And

2:17

he understands. We have a lot of

2:19

troubles. He understands that he has

2:21

four years to fix them. And he

2:23

needs to move fast. Because if

2:25

we don't move these titanic situations in

2:27

on a better course quickly, we'll

2:29

have even worse situation in a lot

2:31

of areas, in a lot of

2:33

fronts. Right, but he actually

2:36

does seem to have switched sides

2:38

within the first few weeks

2:40

of his presidency. He now describes

2:42

Volodymyr Zelensky as a dictator, and

2:45

he in essence is saying that Ukraine

2:47

started this war, not Russia. I

2:49

don't think he switched side. I

2:52

mean, President Trump was very clear,

2:54

even before even he got elected.

2:56

He was very transparent with American

2:58

people. He felt the other administration

3:00

was mingling too much, wasn't really

3:02

dealing correctly with Russia. And he

3:05

was very clear, under

3:07

his watch, the war didn't

3:09

start and wouldn't have

3:11

started. So he also understands

3:13

that the difficulty, what

3:15

he inherited right now, and

3:17

probably understands, He talks a

3:19

little bit more about what's really happening with

3:21

Ukraine and Zelensky. A lot of other

3:23

leaders are afraid to tell the truth. You

3:26

know, what is really he's doing within his

3:28

country and how he didn't get country ready

3:30

for the war. And he's really the leader

3:32

that is almost impossible. Hang on. I

3:34

mean, Zelensky is not a dictator,

3:36

is he? And Ukraine didn't stop

3:39

war. But then his country, he

3:41

centralized a lot of power.

3:43

He's put his military in jail.

3:45

He's not a dictator. He has a

3:47

mandate. He was elected in wants to

3:49

be a dictator. As much power

3:51

as he did, it's sad.

3:53

I mean, listen, there is

3:55

no argument what dictatorship Putin

3:57

created. But sadly enough, Zelensky

4:00

using the war to actually

4:02

create dictatorship with his friends in

4:05

Kiev, centralize a lot of

4:07

power. If I may just stop you for

4:09

a second. I think a lot of our

4:11

viewers and listeners are not going to believe

4:13

their ears when they hear you say this

4:15

sort of thing. You were born, hang on,

4:17

you were born, hang on, let me finish.

4:19

You were born in Ukraine and this is

4:21

what you said the month after the all

4:23

out Russian invasion of Ukraine in February 2022

4:25

in March. You said, this is a genocide

4:27

of the Ukrainian people by a crazy man.

4:29

I mean, you meant Putin at that time,

4:31

a crazy man who cannot get over the

4:33

fact that the Ukrainian people do not want

4:35

socialism, the Soviet Union and communism. That's

4:37

what you said after the

4:39

Russians invaded Ukraine. I had

4:41

a person agree to stay behind this

4:44

word. Sadly enough, Ukrainian people elect a

4:46

terrible leader who is corrupt, didn't protect

4:48

the country. He did look at what

4:50

he did before when they went to

4:52

Ukraine. A week before war started, maybe

4:54

two weeks. Zelensky was telling, we are

4:56

going to be cooking shish kebabs on

4:58

May. I'm like, what are you talking

5:00

about? You need to get country ready.

5:03

You have an invasion coming up. Get

5:05

your people ready. Then you already have

5:07

war going on since 2014. And you're

5:09

talking about shish kebabs? You clearly,

5:11

because I know you know Ukraine

5:13

well. You were born there. You

5:15

have family there. You know what

5:17

the Ukrainians have been through over

5:19

the last three years. You know

5:21

what a defense the Ukrainians military

5:24

has put up to resist Russian

5:26

aggression you know how many thousands

5:28

of lives have been lost and

5:30

you know how successful the Ukrainian

5:32

military has been in blocking Putin's

5:34

ambitions to essentially install go to

5:36

Kiev and install a puppet government

5:38

you know what Ukraine has achieved

5:40

so why will you not acknowledge

5:42

that and acknowledge also that

5:45

you disagree with your own President

5:47

Trump who now characterizes Zelensky

5:49

as a dictator and says they

5:51

started the war, both of

5:53

which are plainly untrue. Well,

5:55

I want to explain to you, Zelensky is not Ukraine,

5:57

and he is not in represent the value of the...

6:00

fight as a dynamic freedom. He's a terrible

6:02

president and I feel sorry for the

6:04

Ukrainian people. But I just want

6:06

to differentiate my support of the people

6:08

and brave, courageous military that stood

6:10

up in spite of their government not

6:12

getting ready, not helping them, not

6:14

providing equipment and support, not actually creating

6:17

corruption that we don't even know

6:19

where the money been going. I separated.

6:21

Ukrainian people were able to survive

6:23

and held aggression in spite of their

6:25

government. And sadly enough, every president

6:27

they have was getting worse and worse.

6:29

And I feel bad for them.

6:32

But unfortunately, you cannot win wars with

6:34

bad leaders. So I do

6:36

have understanding what's happening. And I do

6:38

have full support. And I actually,

6:40

in my statement, I said, I have

6:42

full support with the Ukrainian people

6:44

we're doing. And I understand what the

6:46

sacrifices they've done. But I separate

6:48

people from their leaders in government. And

6:50

certainly not, they have a terrible

6:52

government. When you constantly accuse Zelensky

6:54

and his government of corruption, you're just

6:56

peddling talking points that come direct from the

6:58

Kremlin, aren't you? And it just seems

7:00

to me very, hang on. the groups. I

7:02

am telling the groups that you are afraid

7:04

to say. Because all of you, your

7:06

government knows it. Ask your government how much

7:09

corruption. Everyone is afraid even to give

7:11

money. Even Biden was afraid to give

7:13

money because of the corruption. Because the war is

7:15

at war. Hang on. This

7:17

is a reality. a

7:19

sad reality. I want to keep this conversation under some

7:21

sort of control. If we're talking

7:23

corruption, Elon Musk is essentially accusing

7:25

the U .S. government of running

7:27

a deeply corrupt... system. So if

7:30

we're to judge corruption and judge

7:32

countries by corruption, according to Musk,

7:34

the United States has the biggest

7:36

problem of all. But the bottom

7:38

line on corruption is that Zelensky

7:41

and his government are auditing and

7:43

tackling corruption in a way that

7:45

according to the European Union is

7:47

more effective than they've ever done

7:49

before. So let's leave aside

7:51

corruption and ask you why

7:53

Donald Trump has given a

7:55

whole series of diplomatic gifts

7:57

to Vladimir Putin before any

7:59

substantive negotiation has even begun.

8:01

He's ruled out NATO membership

8:04

for Ukraine, he's ruled

8:06

out American boots ever being put

8:08

on the ground in Ukraine as

8:10

part of a peacekeeping force and

8:12

in essence he has given Vladimir Putin

8:14

much of what he wanted

8:16

including recognition that Russia will stay

8:19

in control of parts of occupied

8:21

Ukraine. Just like briefly say

8:23

about the corruption you already in propaganda

8:25

that the Ukrainian government is spreading and buying

8:27

in our government in Europe to tell

8:29

lies because it's a valid concern and it's

8:31

hard to win the war when you

8:33

have huge corruption It's a sad reality. You

8:35

always have some some level of misoperation

8:37

and corruption But the magnitude of it is

8:39

becoming it reached the point that I

8:41

was shocked I'll be honest with you when

8:44

I went to Ukraine but going back

8:46

to what you're saying about President Trump President

8:48

Trump in here is very difficult situation.

8:50

You know Ukrainian military It was not prepared.

8:52

No one was producing weapons. No one

8:54

was getting ready to fight 20 -year war,

8:57

which is usually not very good. You

8:59

know, we need to win wars as

9:01

fast as we can. Democracy has speed

9:03

and agility on a long term. Dictatorship,

9:05

you know, have advantages. So no one

9:07

got ready. People are dying. Nothing was

9:09

prepared. You know, Zelensky didn't prepare the

9:11

country. Europeans only do grandiose statements and

9:14

nauseated what they do. You go there

9:16

and they don't help barely at all,

9:18

you know, except, you know, television. and

9:20

all these different things and then going

9:22

and taking, you know, picture -ups. And this

9:24

is not about picture -ups. You haven't

9:26

answered my question at all. Let

9:28

me ask you, I'm trying to

9:30

try a different tack with you,

9:32

a more personal question. You told

9:34

me back in the spring of

9:36

2022 when we last saw each

9:39

other, you told me a story

9:41

about your grandmother in Chernihiv, in

9:43

northern Ukraine, where your family is

9:45

from. You said she has spent

9:47

four months enduring bombing from Russia.

9:49

What do you think your grandmother thinks

9:51

of the position you take today? All

9:54

people that know the landscape understanding Ukraine,

9:56

most people, that's why he has low

9:58

approval rating, that he failed the Ukraine with

10:00

corruption, with his comedy presentation, not getting

10:03

the country in on top of it,

10:05

harassing his own military. And there is

10:07

no doubt that Putin is a true

10:09

evil. There is no doubt. And I

10:11

will never say anything else about him.

10:13

It's terrible what he did. But when

10:15

you have your own leader betraying your

10:18

own people, when you have an old

10:20

leader sabotaging the country and playing politics

10:22

with the people that died in front

10:24

line, this is betrayal too. So that's

10:26

a sad reality. I truly believe in

10:28

the long run, Ukraine is going to

10:30

prevail. But in the short run,

10:32

the situation is tough. And we need

10:35

to figure out how at least we can

10:37

stop killing of so many people and

10:39

figure out, and it will all depends, what's

10:41

happened in Ukraine, Russia, and everywhere else. Do

10:43

you think that a meaningful

10:45

and lasting peace can be done

10:48

without Ukraine and the Europeans

10:50

even being at the negotiating table?

10:52

Because right now, Trump's approach

10:54

is only to engage in a

10:56

bilateral process with Putin and

10:58

his team from Moscow. From

11:00

my perspective, meaningful lasting peace cannot be

11:03

done at this point at all,

11:05

no matter who sits at the table.

11:07

I think the only thing can

11:09

be done right now, at least for

11:11

the presidency of President Trump, Putin

11:13

will not move further. and stop this

11:15

war from escalating further. And

11:17

then it will depend. What Ukrainians are

11:19

going to do, they're going to have elections.

11:21

It will depend what leader they elect,

11:23

what's happening in Russia. A lot of things

11:25

can change in four years. But I

11:27

don't believe you can reconcile sides right now.

11:30

Ukrainian people did significant sacrifice. Russia

11:32

cannot be punished right now because they're not

11:34

losing the war. It should have been done a

11:36

few years ago. Put them in a position. And

11:39

right now, Ukrainian is not ready.

11:41

Or anyone to fight that war. a

11:43

Trump loyalist and if I can

11:45

put it this way a MAGA

11:47

Republican do you care that in

11:49

Europe right now there are many

11:51

political leaders who believe that NATO

11:54

is in grave danger and

11:56

is probably doomed and the

11:58

new incoming German Chancellor Friedrich Merz

12:00

has just said my absolute

12:02

priority is to strengthen Europe

12:05

and European defence to achieve

12:07

independence from the United States

12:09

because we see that the

12:11

Americans at least this administration

12:13

are indifferent to the fate

12:15

of Europe. I don't accept

12:17

your characterization, what you have, like

12:19

loyalists. I'm actually have a very strong

12:21

support for a variety groups in

12:23

my district, you know, including Trump supporter

12:25

and MAGA supporters, and the very

12:27

diverse, you know, I have very tough

12:29

races, so, and I'm very independent

12:31

thinking, and I'm willing to have productive

12:33

conversation with my own party, but

12:35

not just go and stalk people on

12:38

Twitter, like Zelensky just did with

12:40

the president the country. If you

12:42

wouldn't mind if I may just politely

12:44

ask you to answer the question, it

12:46

would be much appreciated. Do you understand

12:48

that in Europe there is a feeling

12:50

that with Donald Trump in the White

12:52

House, NATO does not have a future?

12:54

And do you, as a Republican politician,

12:56

but also as a Ukrainian American, care

12:59

about NATO having a

13:01

future? Well, if NATO

13:03

wants to have a future, these countries need

13:05

to step up. They've been playing politics a

13:07

lot, and they expect, you know, they need

13:09

to grow their defenses, they need to become

13:12

stronger, you know. And then let's just be

13:14

honest, and people accuse of, you know, Trump

13:16

and other people saying that, oh, you know,

13:18

about NATO, let's just be honest with some

13:20

of their lies. Ukraine membership in

13:22

NATO was never on the table.

13:24

Let's just be like very realistic,

13:26

because until Russia is mingled and

13:28

dead, it was impossible. So let's

13:30

have a honest conversation. What is

13:32

on the table and what is

13:34

not? And how Europeans, not dependent on

13:37

Russian gas or Russian oil, how

13:39

Europeans strengthen their own country and

13:41

own borders, and how Europeans are

13:43

going to be our true allies, not

13:45

wait for us to send our

13:47

money, our weapons. How much money

13:49

we send to replenish NATO supplies

13:51

and equipment? They send garbage to Ukraine.

13:54

you've got talking points, but facts do

13:56

matter. And the fact is, as measured

13:58

by a number of independent analysts, including

14:00

the Kiel Institute, the Europeans have

14:02

given more financial and military

14:05

assistance, if you add it all

14:07

up, have given more than

14:09

the Americans to Ukraine since the

14:11

Russian invasion of 2022. So

14:13

let us stick with money and

14:15

economics, because it seems to

14:17

me Donald Trump is doing something

14:19

interesting in Ukraine. He is

14:21

focused on a transactional set of

14:23

relations. He clearly sees a

14:26

future for an economic partnership with

14:28

Russia. Marco Rubio's talked about the

14:30

opportunities that lie ahead for the United

14:32

States and Russia. But also when it

14:34

comes to Ukraine, Trump has

14:36

zeroed in on the rare

14:38

earth mineral resources of Ukraine. And

14:40

he put to Zelensky a

14:42

deal which would give a guaranteed

14:44

American right to 50 % of

14:47

those rare earth minerals. Are

14:49

you telling the outside world? that

14:51

that is a reasonable thing for the

14:53

Americans to do. Well, let

14:55

me tell you, if Ukrainians would be

14:57

smart, they would have been smart, they

15:00

wouldn't have made deals in an economic

15:02

partnership with Russia or China before, because

15:04

if Taiwan is smart, they have an

15:06

economic partnership with the United States. That's

15:08

why we're going to be defending them.

15:10

Okay, let's just be realistic. Economic partnerships

15:12

create strengths in the political partnership. Not,

15:14

but when you have Ukrainians taking our

15:17

money and buying weapons from China and

15:19

still putting in sanctions on Russia and

15:21

doing all the trade, then you start

15:23

wondering. economic partnership

15:25

actually would be a national security

15:27

issue that Ukrainians should be really

15:29

serious about that because if we

15:32

have American companies involved in Ukraine,

15:34

if things are happening, you will

15:36

have much more stability for Ukraine

15:38

and protection for Ukraine. If, as

15:40

seems is the case, the United

15:42

States message to Ukrainians, you're going

15:44

to have to live with the

15:46

fact that you've lost a huge

15:48

chunk of your sovereign territory to

15:50

Russia, something like 18

15:53

to 20 % of your land is

15:55

going to be kept by Vladimir Putin.

15:57

You're not going to have NATO

15:59

guarantees. You're not going to have a

16:01

U .S. security guarantee. If that is the

16:03

outcome, Historian

16:05

Niall Ferguson, who actually is in

16:07

many ways a sympathetic voice to

16:09

Donald Trump, says this, that it

16:12

would represent a policy of unalloyed

16:14

appeasement. And he says, what we've

16:16

seen in the last few weeks

16:18

have bitterly disappointed those of us

16:20

who conveyed to the new administration

16:22

the seriousness of the threat posed

16:25

to the West by an axis

16:27

of China, Russia, Iran and

16:29

North Korea. Do you not see

16:31

the message that Trump is sending

16:33

to the wider world including China,

16:35

could be very dangerous. Well, listen,

16:37

I'll tell you what the

16:39

appeasement was. When Obama did

16:42

nothing, when Russia entered Ukraine

16:44

in Crimea and advanced into

16:46

Eastern Ukraine, when Biden

16:48

was saying a little incursion, it's OK,

16:50

and was slow working aid and

16:52

didn't even help them at the beginning

16:54

or before the war, that's an

16:56

appeasement, Putin didn't move on the Trump.

16:59

Trump inherited all the situations, so

17:01

I think he is going to try

17:03

to stop at least them moving

17:05

further. We have to deal. in

17:07

Russia we need to figure out but

17:09

at least we need to stop them of

17:11

advancing further because if we don't do

17:13

something very soon they might start advancing further

17:16

that's a reality because Europe be the

17:18

peace in Russia by depending on their gas

17:20

and oils by having business relationship with

17:22

Russia they're putting real sanctions you know and

17:24

doing a lot of loopholes so let's

17:26

just be honest and talk about that a

17:28

lot of people are dying but ballistic

17:31

missiles are not landing in capitals in Europe

17:33

they don't see what destruction is happening

17:35

they don't see what's happening on the front

17:37

line. So it is going to be on the

17:39

temporary, you know, resolution, I think, of this issue,

17:41

but at least you can stop Russia from moving

17:43

further. Yeah, let's move from from foreign

17:45

policy if we may before we end

17:48

the interview to what's happening inside the

17:50

United States of America. You as a

17:52

politician have always been a very loud

17:54

advocate of cutting government. So I'm guessing

17:56

that you are delighted to see what

17:58

Elon Musk and his Department of Government

18:00

Efficiency are doing to the federal

18:02

government. But are you also delighted

18:04

that in the course of trying

18:06

to slash jobs across the federal

18:08

government, he appears to be compromising

18:10

safety at the National Nuclear Security

18:12

Administration? He appears to have fired

18:15

people at the US Center for

18:17

Disease Control and Prevention who've had

18:19

to be rehired because of the

18:21

dangers that has posed. This

18:23

looks like chaos rather than

18:25

efficiency. No, it's actually,

18:27

you know, I grew up in the

18:29

Soviet Union, and if you remember, Hayek

18:31

said the biggest danger, actually, a communist

18:33

definition, is centralized power of centralized government.

18:35

And that's what happened. We centralized an

18:37

enormous amount of power that we cannot

18:39

do things that we should be doing

18:41

well. We're doing too many things and

18:43

nothing is good. And we have a

18:45

lot of problems everywhere. And we need

18:47

to do better. We need to make

18:49

sure that we have strong military, national

18:51

defense. We protect our border, have good

18:53

interstate commerce, good economy, and protect our

18:55

constitution. right. That's what the federal government has

18:57

created. And we need to do a

18:59

significant reset, because as I said, it's like

19:02

a Titanic. Some of my colleagues thinks we

19:04

are, you know, submarine, but unfortunately we are

19:06

not. We are like a Titanic on the

19:08

collision course. And if we want to avoid

19:10

it, we need to have some big serious

19:12

moves. And Ilan is trying to push some

19:14

government, at least in some efficiency, but is

19:16

ultimately for the Congress to put it

19:18

in the law. And that's what I'm working

19:21

on. It's interesting that right now

19:23

the Congress isn't really able to

19:25

effectively... push back against what Elon

19:27

Musk and Doge is doing, but

19:29

certainly federal judges and courts are

19:31

pushing back. They blocked him, for

19:33

example, from having access to the

19:35

vast treasury payment system, saying that

19:37

they're operating in Doge in such

19:39

a flawed and haphazard way that

19:41

to give them control of treasury

19:43

payments or in access to treasury

19:45

payments would likely be illegal. Now,

19:48

Donald Trump and Elon Musk seem to be

19:50

saying that if the courts continue to rule

19:52

against them, they are going to

19:54

take on the judges. Is America

19:56

going to be a democracy if

19:58

the executive branch starts to intimidate the

20:00

courts and the judges? We're

20:02

a republic, actually, not a democracy. A

20:04

judicial system. Unfortunately, it's been broken and

20:06

really stuck against people with no money.

20:08

That's about the quality of rights. That

20:11

was the strength of the republic, and

20:13

we don't have it. So the judicial

20:15

system needs some work. But ultimately, Congress

20:17

is broken. Roughly 85 % of

20:19

our spending, the money, we never even

20:21

looked at. Think about it. It's automatic.

20:23

Steroids. We don't even look at it.

20:25

And we barely look at the rest.

20:27

Until Congress start doing this job, we

20:29

cannot save this republic. But that job

20:32

now, party. We have control of the House

20:34

and the Senate. That's why I need to

20:36

work on making Republicans great again. I need

20:38

to make sure that my party is

20:40

going to deliver in the law great policies

20:42

that President Trump tried to accomplish for the

20:44

country. I've got bad news for you on

20:46

that front. On the delivery front, Jessica

20:48

Riedel, who is a budget expert

20:50

based at the conservative, stressed conservative Manhattan

20:52

Institute think tank, has looked at

20:55

what Doge is doing and compared the

20:57

rhetoric with the reality and says

20:59

that the likely savings from what Doge

21:01

is engaged in right now are

21:03

about four billion dollars. And Elon Musk

21:05

promised that he'd be able to

21:07

save two trillion. It's simply not going

21:09

to happen. That's why he's working

21:11

with Congress and will put some stuff

21:13

that Congress has been looking on. You know,

21:15

he's a great help for us to

21:17

go and see what in this branch is.

21:19

But ultimately, all things needs to happen

21:21

in Congress. And I agree that this is

21:23

the branch that has responsibility. But we

21:25

have so much fraud and abuse, especially in

21:28

health care. And I think that is

21:30

my goal, working with the House, Republicans, and

21:32

Senate Republicans to deliver on this policy. You

21:34

say that is your role, isn't

21:36

it? Your number one role to defend

21:38

democracy. You are in the... Legislative

21:40

branch, you're an elected politician and I

21:42

just wonder whether you are worried

21:45

that one of America's leading political scientists

21:47

says that what he sees in

21:49

these early weeks of Donald Trump's second

21:51

term is a slide into a

21:53

new model of autocracy. He calls it

21:55

competitive authoritarianism. There are still gonna

21:57

be elections, he says, but incumbent abuse

21:59

of power systematically tilts the playing

22:01

field against the opposition in

22:04

this new America. You should be

22:06

fighting against that, shouldn't you? Well,

22:08

listen, actually, we need to see who these think

22:10

tanks are getting paid for. A lot of them

22:13

from the same government programs that we try to

22:15

see where corruption is. So I would take everything

22:17

with a grain of salt. But my main role

22:19

to sell this republic, and Elon Musk

22:21

and President Trump are strong allies. They

22:23

understand that we're in deep trouble. But I

22:25

need to make sure that the things

22:27

that they try to find, the bad things

22:29

that happen in government will put it

22:31

in the law, because I agree. We are

22:33

article one branch. We have to have

22:35

this law so it has more lasting effect.

22:37

just for one administration. And

22:40

Congress needs to start exercising its

22:42

power and responsibility. So that is

22:44

my job, and I'll do my best to

22:46

convince my Republicans and work with them that

22:48

we have to have some courage to do

22:50

the right thing for the country. Congresswoman

22:52

Victoria Sparts, I thank you very much

22:54

for joining me on Hard Talk. Thanks. Thank

22:57

you. Thank you for having me.