0:00

You describe how your inner

0:02

voice has had faded. You

0:04

say, in the decade or

0:06

so before my marriage fell

0:08

apart, therapy made it possible

0:10

for you to respond to

0:13

betrayals in your marriage without

0:15

betraying yourself in return. It

0:17

is hard, right? Really

0:19

hard. And it's hard

0:22

for everyone involved, including

0:24

the kids. I felt

0:26

like we had agreed on our values as

0:28

a couple going into the marriage. But I got

0:30

to a point where I didn't feel like I

0:32

could be fully integrated and

0:34

live those values in the marriage

0:36

because there comes a point at which

0:38

to be true to yourself,

0:40

you have to do what's

0:43

right, even though you may

0:45

not want to. Thank

1:00

you. Of course. They've been to Denny's many

1:02

times kids. Have you been to Denny's? Yes, no

1:04

long time, but when they were little,

1:06

they loved Denny's. Did they really? Oh yeah,

1:08

the pancakes. The pancakes. Coming

1:10

up in this incredible

1:12

part two episode with Melinda

1:14

French Gates, she's

1:16

opening up like... before you

1:19

started having dreams of

1:21

a crumbling foundation. I had this

1:23

dream that I was on a

1:25

cliff and my ex -husband Bill and the kids

1:27

were also on the edge of the cliff

1:29

but my part of the cliff crumbled

1:31

away and I was dropping down into

1:33

a pit and they were still on

1:35

the edge of this cliff together and

1:37

I knew oh this means I need

1:39

to separate and do something else I

1:42

need to figure this out and I'm gonna

1:44

be alone in figuring this out. and

1:47

sharing life -changing lessons

1:49

on igniting your courage.

1:52

panic attacks. So many of us have

1:54

them and a lot of us think

1:56

we're alone in them or we don't

1:58

share them. I think more people have

2:00

than we realize. I had

2:02

read about them and I remember

2:04

being skeptical like, is that a

2:06

real thing? Like, what is that?

2:08

You know, I've been anxious before,

2:11

but when you have one, it

2:13

is, it's so terrifying, just terrifying.

2:15

At least for me, the whole

2:17

world falls away and you are

2:19

just by yourself. and just literally

2:21

that like deer in the headlights,

2:23

like you can't sweaty palms, can't

2:25

think, your heart is racing. And

2:28

so I think they're really important

2:30

to talk about because we can also

2:32

help one another and coach one

2:34

another through them. Finally, your body just

2:36

stops you dead in your tracks

2:38

and says, this is not right and

2:40

you know it. Yeah, do you

2:42

have them now? Trusting

2:44

your faith. There

2:46

were times I sort of moved

2:49

away from faith. There's a

2:51

beautiful at the end of the

2:53

musical Les Miserables. They

2:55

say to love another person

2:57

is to see the face

2:59

of God. How do

3:01

you reconcile that and practice faith

3:03

and also be so passionate about

3:05

some of the things you believe

3:08

so strongly in that maybe some

3:10

people in a particular religion don't?

3:13

And so talk about it in congruency,

3:15

right? And I have to really

3:17

then reckon with my faith. And I

3:19

just realized, wow, I need to

3:21

actually unlearn some of these things because

3:24

I can't square the circle. Do

3:26

you know for sure God exists? Hearing

3:29

your intuition. You

3:32

have to trust. have

3:34

to trust that something's moving through

3:36

you. And taking your power

3:38

back. I certainly

3:40

have had times in my life where

3:42

I didn't think I was worthy. I

3:44

would sit at the front of the

3:46

table and think, am I worthy to

3:48

be here and worthy to be the

3:50

one at the head of the table

3:52

asking the questions, making

3:54

the decisions about resources?

3:57

I know there were times where people were rolling

3:59

their eyes, like, you know, okay, that question

4:01

she asked, that one wasn't a very good one,

4:04

right? And I had to

4:06

learn that no, my voice mattered. And

4:08

sometimes the question I asked turned

4:10

out to be exactly the right question.

4:13

I am so excited for

4:15

you, for me, for women

4:17

everywhere right now, because this

4:19

conversation is just that incredible

4:22

and literally jumping out of

4:24

my chair right now. Melinda

4:29

French Gates is a philanthropist,

4:31

businesswoman and global advocate for women

4:33

and girls. She's

4:35

the founder of Pivotal Ventures,

4:37

focused on accelerating social progress

4:39

by removing barriers that hold

4:41

people back. She also

4:43

co -founded the Gates Foundation, alongside

4:45

her former husband Bill Gates.

4:50

Melinda's brand -new book, The

4:52

Next Day. Transitions, change, and

4:54

moving forward is out now. Make

4:56

sure you pick up your copy

4:58

right now. It is so good.

5:01

And whether today you're listening for yourself

5:03

or because someone that you love shared

5:05

this episode with you, I want to

5:07

welcome you to the Jamie Kernley Michelle

5:09

podcast family. Thank you so much for

5:12

being here. And can you take two

5:14

seconds and do me a favor? Please

5:16

hit the subscribe or follow button on

5:18

the app that you're listening listening or

5:20

watching on thank you so much it

5:22

truly means so much to me and

5:25

the team that works so hard to

5:27

bring you this show also this episode

5:29

it's not just for you and me

5:31

please share this with every single person

5:33

that you know because what you're about

5:35

to hear can truly impact and change

5:37

your life and theirs. Jamie

5:48

you're so inspiring Jamie Kern Lima

5:50

One of my favorite parts of

5:53

the next day was I felt

5:55

like I and I felt like

5:57

I was right by your side

5:59

in some ways in in your

6:01

childhood, even seeing how you were

6:03

raised. I used to type on

6:05

a typewriter, and you talk about

6:08

the 15 -pound typewriter that you

6:10

were gifted. You talk about your

6:12

parents. You talk about being raised

6:14

Catholic. And so I'm curious, now

6:17

today, how would

6:19

you say the role

6:21

of faith? What's

6:23

that role of faith in your life right

6:25

now? And how has it

6:28

evolved? It's fundamental in my

6:30

life still. and I will

6:32

certainly say there were times I sort

6:34

of moved away from faith, but then

6:36

I always think goodness came back to

6:38

it. Like one of them was in

6:40

college, right? I actually tried several different

6:42

faith traditions. I remember calling my mom

6:44

and she was just like, oh, you're

6:46

doing what, you know? But then I

6:48

came back to my roots. I'm

6:51

less now about a structured

6:53

religion because I realize that

6:55

religions all have man -made

6:57

rules that are part of

6:59

them, right? but they're

7:01

all pointing to the same thing

7:03

which is a belief in spirituality

7:05

or a goodness in the universe

7:07

or maybe a god in some

7:09

cases and so for me the

7:11

spiritual piece is just absolutely grounding

7:13

in my life and I still

7:15

I go to church some I'm

7:18

still Catholic I go to church

7:20

some not not nearly as often

7:22

as when I was growing up

7:24

But I'm also maybe even more

7:26

importantly in these two spiritual groups

7:28

that are both non -denominational. One I've

7:30

been with for 20 years. Another

7:32

one's kind of the last five

7:34

years. And we are

7:36

reading the same things

7:39

by spiritual teachers over who

7:41

taught for centuries sometimes. or

7:45

somebody who's more current, and then

7:47

we're sharing ideas about what we're learning

7:49

through our faith and spirituality. I

7:51

still go on a silent retreat

7:54

once a year. In fact, I'll go

7:56

in May with my group that

7:58

I've been with for 20 years. We'll

8:00

go on silent retreat. We met

8:02

yesterday to prepare for that, because it's

8:04

a journey to go on silent

8:06

retreat. I would say it's

8:08

fundamental. And then the other

8:10

thing I would say, and you alluded to

8:13

this in your own life, which is Again,

8:15

when you have doubt in those times you

8:17

need to lean in or lean forward, just

8:20

remembering there's something much bigger than you. And

8:22

there must be some reason you're here. You have

8:24

no idea how you got placed in this

8:26

position, right? I have no idea how I, you

8:28

know, the sequence of events that led up

8:30

to other things in my life. It's just, it's

8:32

hard to put it together, but when you

8:34

can remember there's something much bigger and you can

8:36

trust that, at least for me, I know

8:39

I just, I sink into it and I just,

8:41

I calm down. Yeah. Do

8:43

you ever, do you know for

8:45

sure God exists? Yes. Absolutely.

8:49

Absolutely. And there's

8:51

a beautiful, at the

8:53

end of the musical Les

8:56

Miserables, they say to

8:58

love another person is to

9:00

see the face of

9:02

God. And so I've

9:04

also come to learn that

9:06

God is also amongst us

9:08

and in our relations and

9:11

in our relationships too and

9:13

that I can look for

9:15

that and you see where

9:17

you make some of those

9:19

connections. But what I

9:21

encourage people to do who've grown up, if you're

9:23

lucky enough to have grown up in a

9:25

faith tradition, because I do think that's lucky, it

9:27

means you had some values and moral structure.

9:29

It may not have all been right. It may

9:31

have put some things on you you wish

9:33

you didn't have, but I really encourage people to

9:35

go back and look at that faith and

9:37

learn about it. Where did it come from? What

9:39

are the origins? How

9:41

did it come into being? Where did

9:44

it change over time? Like I grew up

9:46

in the Roman Catholic Church, but There's

9:48

a Celtic version of the Catholic Church that

9:50

is actually even closer to what I

9:52

believe it turns out. And

9:54

so just learning your own history

9:56

so you can decide what you

9:58

believe now, but practicing your faith

10:00

is also really important. And so

10:02

this is why I have these

10:04

two groups there, almost like accountability

10:06

measures we are for one another. And

10:10

then I also believe in faith in

10:12

action. So part of the work I do

10:14

in the world is putting what I

10:16

believe to be true in my faith and

10:18

all the things that I've learned through

10:20

this unusual path I've had in life that,

10:22

you know, I couldn't have added it

10:24

all up. I put that faith into action

10:26

and hopefully I'm creating positive change in

10:28

the world. When

10:30

you talk about organized religion. You

10:33

know, for me, like my

10:35

journey, I'm curious your thoughts on

10:37

this is, you know, because

10:39

you're very, you're very active with

10:41

women's rights and politically, all

10:44

the things, all the things. I

10:46

think some people are scared to even

10:48

consider faith because they feel they might

10:50

be judged or they feel like, oh,

10:53

well. You know, I believe

10:55

these things, but then I don't know

10:57

if I can practice a faith

10:59

because I've always, as you

11:01

said, the man made rules. How

11:03

do you sort of in your own

11:05

spirit and soul go, okay, I

11:07

feel this about my faith and there

11:09

might be parts of it, whether

11:12

they're in writing or not, that doesn't

11:14

feel true to me. How do

11:16

you navigate that? Because I think a

11:18

lot of people don't have faith

11:20

in their life anymore, or they feel

11:22

like there's so many rules that

11:25

maybe feel incongruent at their soul. How

11:27

do you reconcile that and practice

11:29

faith and also be so passionate about

11:31

some of the things you believe

11:33

so strongly in that maybe some people

11:35

in a particular religion don't? Yeah,

11:38

I love your word incongruent because We

11:40

know certain things. Yes. We

11:42

just, there's an inner knowing

11:44

about things. And for me,

11:46

I'll say as I was traveling the world more

11:48

and more, I was so lucky on behalf of

11:50

the foundation I got to travel. But

11:52

you know, I was out in low

11:54

income countries three, sometimes four times

11:56

a year all over the world. And

11:58

I was learning from these men

12:01

and women in villages about their lives

12:03

and they would talk about children.

12:05

And both the men and the women

12:07

knew. that when they could

12:09

space the births of those children, they

12:11

were better off. Or if they could limit, let's

12:13

say they could limit and decide they were only

12:15

gonna have three or four instead of six or seven.

12:18

They knew they could then feed their kids,

12:20

their kids could go to school, they

12:22

had a chance those kids of maybe growing

12:24

up and, you know, living

12:26

their dreams. And so... But

12:28

but if you I would go in these villages

12:30

and I would ask people I literally was

12:32

in a village I remember one time and we

12:35

all gathered under the tree There are about

12:37

150 people and I said how many of you

12:39

know? Somebody that a woman

12:41

that has died in childbirth and the

12:43

number of hands that went up

12:45

was astounding and then I said

12:47

how many of you know of a

12:49

baby that's been lost in childbirth

12:52

and like even more hands went up

12:54

and was a group where they

12:56

knew about contraceptives, but didn't have access.

12:58

The world had backed away after

13:00

the 1970s. We used to make

13:02

sure that people had access to contraceptives,

13:04

not for all the right reasons. But

13:07

the world had backed away. And

13:09

as I learned the difference, and that

13:12

child was lost because... mom had

13:14

them too close together. She didn't mean

13:16

to, but all of a sudden

13:18

the next one came and boom, she

13:20

lost that baby prematurely because the

13:22

birth was too quick and her body

13:24

wasn't ready. I started

13:26

to realize, I believe in

13:28

life. I believe in these children's

13:31

lives, the worthiness of them,

13:33

the inherent beauty on the day

13:35

they're born. But because of

13:37

a man -made rule in the

13:39

church that I'm in, the Catholic

13:41

church, We're not

13:43

allowing women to have access

13:45

to contraceptives. And so talk

13:47

about it in congruency, right? And I

13:49

had to really then reckon with my

13:51

faith. I brought in some

13:53

Notre Dame scholars to teach me. I

13:56

learned the history, how the Catholic

13:58

Church had gotten there, why they'd

14:00

gotten there. I started to learn

14:02

from a very liberal Jesuit priest

14:04

listening to his lectures and his

14:06

teachings and his books, Richard Rohr.

14:09

And I just realized, wow, I

14:11

need to actually unlearn some of

14:13

these things because I can't square

14:15

the circle. I believe in the

14:17

dignity of life. And yet

14:19

we're losing more children because of

14:21

this. We won't allow this tool to

14:23

be given to women. And

14:26

it really was almost a crisis of faith,

14:28

but I was able to eventually reconcile them and

14:30

say, no, no, no, this is what I

14:32

believe and I know to be true. And I

14:34

am going to speak the truth in the

14:36

world. And that took, again, a lot of courage

14:38

and a lot of leaning forward. But

14:41

boy, did it feel right to give

14:43

voice to what these families and these

14:46

women were telling me. Like if they,

14:48

if I had the privilege of being

14:50

there and them sharing their lives with

14:52

me, I felt

14:54

given my position at the foundation, I

14:56

had a responsibility to go voice

14:58

that and do something about it on

15:00

the world stage. And it

15:02

became, it animated my life. I

15:05

love something you just said

15:07

that we all have a knowing,

15:09

like we all have a

15:11

knowing and know the truth. And,

15:13

you know, I believe in

15:15

God. I pray almost every day,

15:17

all the things. In

15:20

my knowing, I just,

15:22

Melinda, how I feel like how I live

15:24

my life and I want to share this

15:26

because I think something you shared is so

15:28

powerful. And just for anybody listening or watching

15:30

us right now who is maybe in that

15:32

incongruent place or like, well, I kind of

15:34

feel like I'm want, you know, to explore

15:36

faith in my life, but I just can't

15:38

get over that, that rule or that judgment

15:40

or whatever. it's that knowing it's

15:43

asking yourself what feels true like what

15:45

feels true to me and everyone can do

15:47

that it's free once we get good

15:49

at it right and and I remember um

15:51

you know I've gotten you know pushback

15:53

on my show for having people that have

15:55

you know that maybe love differently or

15:57

vote differently or identify differently and I just

16:00

every time I how I feel is

16:02

when I ask my knowing my soul I

16:04

feel like if Jesus were here right

16:06

now he would love you no matter what

16:08

no matter how you identify how you

16:10

vote or how you and that's what I

16:12

believe that's what I feel is true

16:14

so that's how I try to then live

16:17

my life and it's just I

16:19

want to share that because when you

16:21

shared that so beautifully, I think for me,

16:23

I think that's the powerful thing for

16:25

people to do. And a lot of people

16:27

actually haven't considered that. Well, maybe I

16:29

can approach faith in a way that I

16:31

take the parts that feel true and

16:33

feel right and feel like they're true for

16:35

me and every person can do that.

16:37

Okay, I want to talk about lessons and

16:39

trusting yourself and your inner voice, which,

16:42

you know, I could talk about,

16:45

I could talk to you for 24 hours

16:47

about... the next day, which is why

16:49

everyone needs to go pick it up right

16:52

now. It is so good. And I

16:54

love what you shared earlier that in your

16:56

life, you've been inspired by other people

16:58

sharing their stories or saying, this is how

17:00

I got through this or this is

17:02

what I did there. And you have friends

17:04

that have shown up for you that

17:07

way. In the next day, you describe how

17:09

your inner voice has had faded. And

17:11

you say, in the decade or so before

17:13

my marriage fell apart, you write that

17:15

therapy made it possible for you to respond

17:18

betrayals in your marriage

17:20

without betraying yourself

17:22

in return. First of

17:24

all... only reason I even include a

17:26

chapter about that time in my life

17:28

in the book is because We need

17:30

to pause for a super brief break

17:33

and while we do take a moment

17:35

and share this episode with every single

17:37

person that you know Maybe they're going

17:39

through a transition in their life in

17:41

some way who this episode could inspire

17:43

because this conversation Can truly not just

17:45

impact our lives, but theirs too In

17:48

life, you don't sort the level

17:51

of your hopes and dreams. You

17:53

stay stuck at the level of

17:55

your self -worth. When you

17:57

build your self -worth, you change

17:59

your entire life. And that's exactly

18:01

why I wrote my new

18:04

book, Worthy. How to believe you

18:06

are enough and transform your

18:08

life for you. If you

18:10

have some self -doubt to destroy

18:12

and a destiny to fulfill, Worthy

18:14

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18:16

Worthy, you'll learn proven tools

18:19

and simple steps that

18:21

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18:23

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18:25

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18:27

unshakable self -love, unlearn

18:30

the lies that lead to

18:32

self -doubt and embrace the

18:34

truths that wake up worthiness, overcome

18:37

limiting beliefs and imposter

18:39

syndrome, Achieve your hopes and

18:41

dreams by believing you are

18:43

worthy of them and so much

18:46

more. Are you ready

18:48

to unleash your greatness and step

18:50

into the person you were

18:52

born to be? Imagine

18:54

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18:56

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18:59

self -worth. Get your copy

19:01

of Worthy plus some amazing

19:03

thank you bonus gifts for you

19:05

at worthybook .com or the link

19:07

in the show notes below. Imagine

19:10

what you do

19:12

if you fully believed

19:14

in you. It's

19:16

time to find out

19:18

with Worthy. Imagine,

19:21

what would you do

19:23

if you fully believed

19:25

in you? My weekly

19:27

free inspirational newsletter is packed with

19:29

tips and tools to help you

19:31

find out. It's called One on

19:34

One with Jamie and it's delivered

19:36

right to your inbox each Tuesday

19:38

morning. It's a love letter

19:40

from me to you, from

19:42

my soul to yours, and I

19:44

hope it brings you the

19:46

words and messages you need at

19:48

just the right moment. Plus,

19:50

when you're part of my free

19:53

inspirational newsletter community, you'll be the first

19:55

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19:57

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20:00

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20:02

It's the place to be, and

20:04

I sure hope you'll join me

20:06

there. So if you're not

20:08

on the list yet, you can

20:10

sign up for free at jamiecurrentlima

20:12

.com or click the link in

20:14

the show notes below. And here's

20:17

to becoming unstoppable together. And

20:19

now more of this

20:21

incredible conversation together. You

20:23

say in the decade or

20:25

so before my marriage fell

20:27

apart, you write that therapy

20:29

made it possible for you

20:32

to respond to betrayals in

20:34

your marriage without betraying yourself

20:36

in return. First

20:38

of all, the only reason

20:40

I even include a chapter about that time

20:42

in my life in the book is

20:44

because people know I went through a divorce

20:46

and it would be incongruous

20:48

if I didn't put it

20:50

in and it would be disingenuous

20:52

and as you said so

20:54

many people unfortunately go through it

20:57

and it is hard right

20:59

really hard and it's hard for

21:01

everyone involved including the kids

21:03

including and for sure the kids

21:05

so I included it for

21:07

that reason I again to use

21:09

your word dis or to

21:11

use a different word I got

21:13

to a point in my

21:15

marriage where I felt like I

21:18

absolutely knew what my values

21:20

were. I felt like we had

21:22

agreed on our values as a

21:24

couple going into the marriage. But I

21:26

got to a point where I

21:28

didn't feel like I could be fully

21:30

integrated and live those values in

21:32

the marriage because of some things going

21:34

on around me that I had

21:36

previously not been aware of. And

21:38

there comes a point

21:40

at which to be

21:42

true to yourself, you

21:45

have to do what's right, even though you

21:47

may not want to, right? Like, can I talk

21:49

in the book that I was afraid to

21:51

call my parents? Like, you know, what are they

21:53

gonna think? I feel terrible. You

21:57

know, it's not what I had dreamt of

21:59

on the day I got married. But in

22:01

the end of the day, like,

22:03

I do think often about, and

22:05

I have for a long time, I write

22:07

about, in the book, my friend John Nielsen, who

22:09

died in his 30s. It's got me from

22:11

a young age in my 30s, because that's how

22:13

old I was when he passed away too,

22:15

to think about what do you want the last

22:17

day to look like and work backwards in

22:19

your life from there. And for

22:21

me, the last day is, was I loved

22:24

by my family and friends? Did they know I

22:26

love them? Do I know that they loved

22:28

me? Did I do meaningful

22:30

work in the world? And was

22:32

I true to myself? Right?

22:34

I mean, only we're going to answer

22:36

for ourselves on the last day. Not

22:38

your children, not your spouse, not your

22:40

mother, not your father. We are

22:43

responsible for ourselves. And so

22:45

if I couldn't be true to

22:47

myself and be an integrated

22:49

whole person, then I need to

22:51

look at that relationship I

22:53

was in and say, it's not

22:55

working anymore. I've done my

22:57

best. I've given everything. I've done

22:59

a lot of work. I've

23:01

done a lot of forgiveness, but at

23:03

some point only I answer for myself.

23:06

With transitions that happen in our

23:08

lives and especially the ones we

23:10

weren't planning on, a lot of

23:13

times we, you know, sometimes

23:15

our default will go to like, is

23:17

something wrong with me or, you

23:19

know, maybe someone just lost their job

23:21

or the friendship group didn't invite

23:23

them to the thing or just like

23:25

things are changing, right? that

23:27

over half of us will experience divorce.

23:29

There's so many transitions. And I love the

23:31

book where you talk about, you know,

23:33

how many different transitions you've gone through. I'm

23:35

going through one right now where my

23:38

kids are now in school. And

23:40

so, like, that's challenge. Like, wait, I haven't

23:42

had a schedule. I haven't had to answer

23:44

to anyone else. And I'm like, just things

23:46

like that, right? So we all go through

23:48

these different transitions. And sometimes when there are

23:50

ones that we didn't foresee, we

23:52

can feel like, Is something wrong

23:54

with us or are we unworthy

23:56

or you know, did you ever

23:58

experience that I certainly have had

24:01

times in my life where I

24:03

didn't think I was worthy when

24:05

I Transitioned into being a co -founder

24:07

of the foundation and But then

24:09

I talked about in the book,

24:11

you know, all of a sudden

24:13

it was Unbelievable that Warren Buffett

24:16

was going to take the assets

24:18

from Berkshire Hathaway and put them

24:20

into our foundation like what an

24:22

amazing gift What an amazing gift.

24:25

But it catapulted the foundation where we

24:27

were growing it like this, but

24:29

all of a sudden the growth in

24:31

the foundation and the public exposure

24:33

was exponential. And

24:36

so to sit then at the

24:38

head of the table at

24:40

the foundation where you're having a

24:42

meeting with 30 people around

24:44

the table and there's some of

24:46

the top scientists in tuberculosis

24:48

and the top scientist in malaria

24:50

and the top scientist in

24:52

maternal mortality. I don't

24:54

have a background in medicine. I

24:56

don't have a background in global

24:58

health. My background is in computer science.

25:01

And so I would sit at the front

25:03

of the table and think, am I

25:05

worthy to be here and worthy to be

25:07

the one at the head of the

25:10

table asking the questions. making

25:12

the decisions about

25:14

resources. And I had

25:16

to really grow into that role.

25:19

And I feel like there were times, I

25:21

don't feel, I know there were times where

25:23

people were rolling their eyes, like, okay, that

25:25

question she asked, that one wasn't a very

25:27

good one, right? And I

25:29

had to learn that, no, my voice

25:31

mattered. And sometimes the question I

25:33

asked turned out to be exactly the

25:36

right question. And...

25:40

And that would give me courage then

25:43

the next time. I'll give you

25:45

an example. We were out in Southeast

25:47

Asia. My ex -husband and I were

25:49

traveling with a group of scientists.

25:51

We were going around and learning about

25:53

tuberculosis in a village, in

25:55

several villages. And we'd done these site

25:57

visits. They'd lasted more than half the

25:59

day. We're kind of all about ready

26:02

to go. But the woman, one of

26:04

the women we talked to earlier was

26:06

there. But no one was talking to

26:08

her. And so I just went over and talked to her.

26:10

The scientists were still talking. And then they kind of

26:12

started to come in. And then I said to her, everybody's

26:15

kind of ready to go. And I said to her, well,

26:17

could you show me? We've talked to

26:19

you about your experience with tuberculosis in your

26:21

family and what's happened. But could you

26:23

show me the actual pill packet? And

26:26

you could see all the scientists just

26:28

kind of rolling their eyes. Why would you

26:30

ask that question? Who cares what the

26:32

pill packet looks like? She brought it out.

26:35

everybody was shocked, including me, the number

26:37

of pills in this pill packet.

26:39

And we started looking at it and

26:41

realizing that the manufacturer was putting

26:44

all these placebo pills in the packaging

26:46

in this particular country. And there

26:48

really was only one pill in there

26:50

per day that made a difference,

26:52

not the other eight in the packet

26:54

for that day, too. So here's

26:57

this poor woman and her family. These

26:59

are hard pills to take. You need

27:01

food. And it literally got us advocating to

27:03

the government. saying, you've got the wrong

27:05

manufacturer for this thing. Like, do you know

27:08

what they're doing with your government money? So

27:11

even while all the scientists sort of

27:13

thought it was a not very great question,

27:15

and I felt unworthy actually in the

27:17

moment, it turned out to be exactly the

27:19

right question. So you have to trust.

27:21

You have to trust that something's moving through

27:23

you. Yeah. Yeah, which

27:25

I think for so many people,

27:27

maybe they're at the infancy of

27:29

that journey, or it'll be, you

27:31

know, a lifelong journey, but that's beautiful.

27:34

And that's why say to people, you

27:36

actually have to practice these transitions,

27:39

right? Like when you're in them, I

27:41

talk about in the book, don't

27:43

rush from one thing if you

27:45

can help it to the next.

27:47

Like, stop and learn the lessons

27:49

in between because... where the beauty

27:51

happens and the growth and eventually

27:53

the resilience. And the more you

27:55

go through one transition, the easier

27:57

the next one will be and

27:59

the next one and the next

28:01

one. And you just, you

28:04

have to trust. There's a

28:06

parable called the parable of the trapeze,

28:08

where a trapeze artist is swinging on

28:10

a piece and they've got both hands,

28:12

but then they're gonna go and get

28:14

the next bar. Well, as that other

28:16

bar is coming towards them and they're

28:18

let going of this one, They have

28:20

to trust that they've got the timing

28:22

right to grab the next bar, right?

28:25

There's a huge piece of trust there as they're

28:27

flying through the air. It could be terrifying. It

28:30

could be exhilarating. But the more they

28:32

practice that, the more they're going to land

28:34

that move and the better off they're

28:36

going to be at it. I

28:38

love that. I love that in the book. That

28:40

was actually a big takeaway for me because

28:43

I will rush through things. And sometimes,

28:45

you know, when something doesn't go our

28:47

way, we do not want to feel

28:49

that for long. You know what I

28:51

mean? And so we're like, ought to

28:53

the next thing. And you talk about

28:55

that, the power of making sure you

28:57

create enough space to learn the lesson

28:59

or to heal or to process all

29:01

of it. In the

29:03

book, one thing that you share in

29:05

the next day. I just have to

29:07

say this Melinda I've written two books

29:10

and anytime I am on someone's show

29:12

and they actually read the book and

29:14

they actually like I'm so grateful and

29:16

I just want to say this because

29:18

it's so important um you know that

29:20

the book is out right now.

29:22

And everyone can go and get their

29:24

copy. Thank you. And on both audio

29:27

and also, I love doing both at

29:29

the same time, reading the physical copy.

29:31

Me too. And listening. I love

29:33

both, because I feel like I'm

29:35

able to just take everything in. One

29:37

of the things that you share

29:39

in the book, so... of vulnerability is

29:42

about panic attacks and so many

29:44

of us have them and a lot

29:46

of us think we're alone in

29:48

them or we don't share them. You

29:50

talk about I think first in

29:52

2006 with the hot air balloon ride

29:54

and then I think it was

29:56

your 20th wedding anniversary. I think more

29:59

people have them than we realize. I

30:01

had read about them and I

30:03

remember being skeptical like is that a

30:05

real thing? Like what is that?

30:07

You know I've been anxious before but

30:09

But when you have one, it

30:12

is at least for me. the

30:14

whole world falls away and you

30:16

are just by yourself and just

30:18

literally that like deer in the

30:20

headlights like you can't sweaty palms

30:22

can't think your heart is racing

30:25

and so I think they're really

30:27

important to talk about because we

30:29

can also help one another and

30:31

coach one another through them so

30:33

one of my my youngest daughter

30:35

one of her friends had one

30:37

we were going to get on

30:40

a plane situation and I

30:42

was able to coach her through it and

30:44

it felt good for her and for me

30:46

at the time. and

30:49

then I had an adult female friend

30:51

who had one in the last six months

30:53

and called me and thank God she

30:55

called me like I could hear it in

30:57

her voice and she didn't even quite

30:59

know what was happening but I could ask

31:01

her what are the circumstances what was

31:04

being asked of you what were you thinking

31:06

you were gonna do and I could

31:08

see that the person that was calling her

31:10

to pull her to do something was

31:12

doing something for their own interests not hers

31:14

and every single thing in her body

31:16

was telling her not to do it but

31:18

she felt guilt she felt reasons that

31:21

she should go like that person was quite

31:23

good at manipulating her right and so

31:25

I was able to talk her down enough

31:27

that she could calm herself we could

31:29

talk later she didn't end up going and

31:31

doing the thing the person asked her

31:33

to do and thank god she did not.

31:36

Do you think that when we have a

31:38

panic attack is our body telling us

31:40

like something's not right or something's incongruent. And

31:42

I think it's been giving you a

31:44

lot more signals before it gets to the

31:46

attack and we just keep not listening

31:49

to them. We just keep pushing them down

31:51

and acting like they're not there or

31:53

not tuning to them. And finally your body

31:55

just stops you dead in your tracks

31:57

and says this is not right and you

31:59

know it. Yeah, do you have them

32:01

now? When's the last one? I have not

32:03

had one recently, not in the last

32:05

four years. Yeah, so

32:07

I had my first one actually

32:10

on my honeymoon. And I'm like,

32:12

what is this trying to tell me? Although

32:14

what's funny is we wrote the business

32:16

plan for our company on our honeymoon. So

32:19

I'm like... I was like about to

32:21

enter a hole. I don't know

32:23

what it was, but that was my first time

32:25

ever. And I couldn't even, I was similar

32:27

to you where I'd heard, of course I knew

32:29

what they were, but I didn't understand. And

32:31

then when you have, when you have one, oh

32:33

my gosh, for me, I felt like I

32:35

was going to die. Yes. Like it's so scary.

32:37

It's so terrifying. Yeah. Just terrifying.

32:39

And I think that's why we need to

32:41

not only talk about them and give

32:43

people tools, but we need to say when

32:45

it's happened to us, because I think

32:47

people look out and say, oh, well, it

32:49

couldn't have happened to her or him.

32:51

You know, they're so confident. No, they can

32:53

happen to anybody. And again, it has

32:55

to do with, are you living that, you

32:57

know, are you being in touch with

32:59

your body and the messages it's giving you?

33:01

Are you living a fully integrated life? when

33:04

you talk about, too, that

33:06

we can have signs coming from

33:08

us from all different areas.

33:10

And page 77 of the next

33:12

day, page 77, I told

33:14

you, oh my gosh, I studied every word.

33:16

It's so good. It's so good. Congratulations. You

33:19

can probably sense my excitement because when

33:21

I get excited, it's when I know something's

33:24

gonna really matter and when it's gonna

33:26

impact so many people, but especially women. So

33:28

page 77 of the next day, you

33:30

share. You talk

33:32

about the dreams you started having.

33:34

You say an article had come

33:36

out suggesting your ex -husband not

33:39

only went against the marriage, but

33:41

also your values. And you started

33:43

having dreams of a crumbling foundation.

33:45

Can you share about those dreams?

33:47

Because a lot of people wonder,

33:49

are they seeing a sign or

33:51

is it just a coincidence or? for

33:55

me not for everybody because I

33:57

know some people say they don't dream

33:59

or they dream very little but

34:01

for me I have a very rich

34:03

dream life and have for a

34:05

long time and have tried to understand

34:07

my dreams some dreams will take

34:10

me years to understand but if they're

34:12

recurring I know I need to

34:14

pay attention to them anyway this dream

34:16

as I say in the book doesn't

34:19

really take Freud to figure

34:21

it out, which was, you

34:23

know, after those articles, things

34:25

had come out publicly. I had this dream

34:27

that I was on a cliff and my

34:29

ex -husband Bill and the kids were also

34:31

on the edge of the cliff, but my

34:34

part of the cliff crumbled away and I

34:36

was dropping down into a pit and they

34:38

were still on the edge of this cliff

34:40

together and they were safe, so I wasn't

34:42

worried about my children. But I knew when

34:44

I woke up, oh, this means I need

34:46

to separate. and do something else.

34:48

I need to figure this out and

34:50

I'm going to be alone in figuring this

34:52

out. This conversation is

34:55

so incredible. We made it into

34:57

more than one part and if you

34:59

are ready to hear your intuition

35:01

and inner voice and learn how to

35:03

finally trust it, you are not

35:05

going to want to miss this incredible

35:07

final part three of this conversation

35:09

with Melinda French Gates coming up in

35:11

the next episode of the Jamie

35:13

Kern Lima show. Remember,

35:16

this episode, not just for you

35:18

and me, please share this with every

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today by sharing this episode. And thank

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share some words with you that

36:07

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36:09

exactly as you are, are enough

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and fully worthy. You're worthy

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Heal where you need. Blossom

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I cannot wait to join you

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advice of a physician, professional coach,

40:46

psychotherapist or other qualified professional.