0:01

Joe Rogan podcast, check it

0:04

out! The Joe Rogan

0:06

experience! Train by day! Joe

0:08

Rogan podcast by night! All

0:10

day! Whenever someone is like

0:12

an interesting person and then I

0:15

find out they do Jiu-Jitsu too,

0:17

I could talk to that guy,

0:19

for sure. Yeah. You know? You

0:22

know, like I get excited when

0:24

interesting people do Jiu-Jitsu because I

0:27

think for the outsider to a

0:29

lot of people that are, you

0:31

know, they haven't been exposed to

0:34

what it's like to train and

0:36

what it's like to be around

0:38

high-level Jiu-Jitsu people. They don't know

0:41

that vibe. They don't know what

0:43

it's like. They don't know the

0:45

beauty of Jiu-Jitsu. I

0:48

feel like... Jujitsu is beautiful for

0:50

people who practice it. You know,

0:52

like you see, like, Marcel's a great

0:54

example, your coach. you know Marcello is

0:56

probably one of the most beautiful guys

0:59

to watch because he just takes advantage

1:01

of these scrambles in this like really

1:03

beautiful way like fast and and slippery

1:06

and when the opponents react he reacts

1:08

in the other way it's all just

1:10

technique and flow it's like ah like

1:13

the first time I ever saw him

1:15

I saw him live in 2003 in

1:17

Abu Dhabi and it's when he fought

1:20

Chaulin that was the first time I'd

1:22

ever seen him ever seen him in the

1:24

flash. I think he shook him out in

1:26

like eight seconds. Oh my god, this is

1:28

crazy. But no one even knew him. No

1:30

one knew of him other than, you know,

1:32

he was obviously, I think he was a brown

1:34

belt at the time. I don't even think

1:36

he was a black belt. I think Marcel

1:38

might have been a brown belt. I

1:40

think Marcel might have been a brown belt.

1:43

I think Marcel might have, Eddie Bravo was

1:45

a brown belt when he may have, Eddie

1:47

Bravo was a brown belt, Eddie Bravo was

1:49

a brown belt, when he may have was

1:51

a brown belt. So he went into that fight.

1:53

It looks incredible. Just that arm drag, take

1:55

the back, choked him out in his seconds.

1:57

Yeah, his like grips from the fight before.

1:59

were like, oh wow. Yeah, when

2:02

Eddie beat Hoeiler, he was a

2:04

brown belt? Yep. Wow. Yeah, John

2:06

Jock took his black belt

2:08

off of his own waist

2:10

and put it on Eddie.

2:12

Amazing, amazing. Dude. That's epic.

2:14

So it's funny. My background,

2:17

we have a lot of

2:19

overlap in our early Jiu-Jitsu

2:21

education, because my first teacher

2:23

was John Machado. Oh, OK.

2:25

Yeah. And I spent years

2:27

training with John in LA. Yeah.

2:29

And then when did you, when did you

2:32

move to New York? So I moved to

2:34

New York. I think I started training with

2:36

John. So I was doing Chinese martial arts

2:38

for a bunch of years before that computing

2:41

everywhere. Then I started training, cross training with

2:43

John in I think 2001, 2002. And then

2:45

early 2005, moved back to New York,

2:47

started training with Marco Santos in

2:49

his school in New York. And I

2:51

was training with Jukau and Alison Brites.

2:54

Jukau is an amazing old school, Bracobresi

2:56

Bresi Bresi Bresi Bresi, like, like, like,

2:58

like, you know. amazing fighter and I

3:00

was also cross-training with Lucas Lepery at the

3:02

time and I was I needed I was

3:05

just ready to and then I met Marcelo

3:07

and I was and he had moved from

3:09

New York to Florida and I was traveling

3:11

to Florida to train with Marcelo a bunch

3:13

and I wanted to be pushed all in

3:15

and Marcelo and I gotten really close and

3:17

then I I just said to him hey

3:19

man you know you want to you want to

3:22

come back to New York and open school together

3:24

and open to school together and he

3:26

really loved New York. And we got

3:28

in Florida at the time. He was

3:30

in Florida. He was in New York

3:32

before. He loved New York, but then

3:35

he had to move to Florida. There's

3:37

just a lot of Jitsu politics flowing

3:39

everywhere as it does. Jitsu

3:41

politics. The worst. And yeah,

3:43

anyway, long story short, we

3:45

opened school together and after that.

3:47

And it was amazing. And I spent

3:49

so many years all in training with

3:52

him. Most such a beautiful martial artist.

3:54

So in 2002 he's promoted to black

3:56

belt. So he was already a black

3:58

belt because this is. 2003. Okay. So

4:01

he had only been a blackbell for

4:03

a year and won Abu Dhabi, which

4:05

is pretty crazy. Pretty crazy.

4:07

Just that. I mean, didn't just

4:09

be child Lynn, won the entire

4:11

division and just looked like no

4:14

one anybody had ever seen. Just

4:16

the scrambles and his ability to

4:18

arm drag and take the back

4:20

and then once he gets to

4:22

your side, the ability to transition

4:25

to the back. It's just phenomenal.

4:27

And he spends his his his his whole

4:29

jitsu life he spent in the scramble

4:31

in transition And that was really a

4:34

philosophy of his You have you seen

4:36

that old old school artesuave clip remember

4:38

the old documentaries artesuave from back there

4:40

around him at as a young teenager

4:42

training Faber Guzelles School in Sao Paulo,

4:44

and it was so interesting because even

4:46

then you could see him He never

4:49

held position. He always let opponents move

4:51

be fun to pull that up maybe

4:53

in at one point interesting like he

4:55

he He never is a core principle

4:57

of his was to allow the

4:59

opponent to move and spend as

5:01

much training time as possible in

5:03

transition and While most you two

5:05

guys as you know is there

5:07

book come up. He goes controlling.

5:10

They're holding guys Yeah

5:12

And this is this him yeah, this

5:14

is already a black belt here. Yeah,

5:16

this is after he moved to

5:18

start training with Fabio in Sao

5:20

Paulo and this is such a beautiful

5:23

thing as if you watch his his

5:25

style He's

5:27

not in this moment, actually. Now he's

5:29

fully controlling. But most of the

5:32

time he's scrambling. Yeah, he's scrambling.

5:34

Did you explain why? Well, you're

5:36

maximizing time spent in the in-between.

5:38

I mean, I think in the

5:40

martial arts, people are so focused

5:42

on position when they're learning, position,

5:44

position, position, position, but the in-between

5:46

is where the real virtuosity happens,

5:48

don't you? Interesting. And so he

5:50

spent, he maximized his time in

5:52

the in the in- stand-up fighting

5:54

that would be like footwork and

5:57

angles be similar to that

5:59

because the most important thing

6:01

about any kind of combat sport

6:03

in terms of striking sports is

6:05

to be in a better position

6:07

to land a shot. and be

6:09

in a better position to defend.

6:12

So if you're fighting Southpaw to

6:14

orthodox, you always want to make

6:16

sure that if your Southpaw, your

6:18

foot is on the outside of

6:20

your opponent's leg. That way, your

6:22

opponent has to kind of cross

6:24

over and try to hit you,

6:26

but you're in a position to

6:29

hit them on the blind side.

6:31

And the best ever at that

6:33

is Vasili Lometchenko. Because Lometchenko, when

6:35

he was young, his father made

6:37

him stop boxing for two years

6:39

and just study Ukrainian dance. Really?

6:41

So for two years he just

6:44

did Ukrainian dance and his foot,

6:46

have you ever seen him pox?

6:48

No. Oh my god, pull up

6:50

a Lometchenko highlight. It's all about

6:52

movement and position with this guy.

6:54

It's all about when you punch

6:56

he's going to make you react

6:59

this way and then he's going

7:01

to go that way and then

7:03

he's going to spin sideways and

7:05

he'll be behind you. So this

7:07

is Lometchenko. Like the way he

7:09

moves is so different. It's almost

7:11

like... It's almost like his, he's

7:14

got just a radar for like

7:16

where their, where their punches are

7:18

coming from and knows exactly where

7:20

to put his feet at all

7:22

times. No matter what they do,

7:24

he knows what they're going to

7:26

do. But when you watch his

7:29

like footwork, it's the most extraordinary

7:31

thing because his ability to give

7:33

you all sorts of different reads,

7:35

like incredible. I mean, you want

7:37

a world title, I think it

7:39

is fourth pro fight. Unbelievable amateur

7:41

record. But it's just the movement,

7:44

like he's never right in front

7:46

of you. He's always off to

7:48

the side, he's always moving around,

7:50

he jumps in and out, and

7:52

it's with perfect precision. Like a

7:54

lot of times when guys do

7:56

a lot of footwork and movement,

7:59

there's points in that transition where

8:01

they're off balance, where they can't

8:03

really throw a punch, or their

8:05

foot... is out of position or

8:07

they're leaning too far over on

8:09

this side. He's never off balance.

8:11

He's never out of position. He's

8:13

always sliding aside, pop out, slide

8:16

aside, pop up. And you never

8:18

know where the fuck he is.

8:20

He's a magician. It's fascinating to

8:22

watch him fight. And very few

8:24

people have tried to incorporate that.

8:26

Like you see some of his

8:28

movement. It's just the way he's

8:31

able to fool the best fighters

8:33

in the world and just have

8:35

a level of movement that they

8:37

just don't really understand what to

8:39

do with. They just they get

8:41

baffled by it because everything is

8:43

coming from different angles. It's never

8:46

I'm charging straightforward at you trying

8:48

to destroy you. Everything is angles

8:50

and movement. Virtuality

8:52

is so beautiful to watch. Oh, it's

8:54

incredible in anything. In anything. In anything.

8:57

When you watch someone who's just unbelievably

8:59

extraordinary and unique in their, whatever their

9:01

discipline is, it's always fascinating to watch.

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at turbotax.com. One way I relate to

9:56

the transitional training is through frames. It's

9:58

like a process of building more frames.

10:00

We have position, we have position, and

10:02

for some people there'll be no space

10:05

in between, but if you spend your

10:07

time playing in the transitional space between,

10:09

you build up frames like an illusionist.

10:12

I know you, like, remember you spoke

10:14

to Darren Brown back in the day.

10:16

Yes. Like, you know, great illusionist magicians,

10:18

magicians, mine control guys, mine control guys.

10:21

they have the ability to see in

10:23

frames that we don't have the ability

10:25

to see and so it seems like

10:27

magic it seems like illusion yeah when

10:30

martial artists are called mystical right it's

10:32

because people don't understand what they're doing

10:34

for the most part technically and they

10:37

have frames where others don't have frames

10:39

mmm so they have more options more

10:41

it's like having a language and you

10:43

have an access to a larger vocabulary

10:46

yeah yeah I think yeah I think

10:48

that that's right yeah that's right and

10:50

people It's like if you think about

10:52

you're engaging with an illusionist who has

10:55

done something has spent hundreds of hours

10:57

in a certain specific routine and you're

10:59

seeing it for the first time Mm-hmm.

11:01

They just have immense knowledge where you

11:04

have known they have more frames and

11:06

they can play in frames that you

11:08

don't have and it seems like Something's

11:11

coming from the from the from the

11:13

sky. Well, that's where Eddie Bravo had

11:15

a pretty significant contribution to Jjitsu because

11:17

he was so creative in some of

11:20

his attacks that he developed particularly off

11:22

his back like if you don't have

11:24

a person that you train with if

11:26

you train at a traditional school you

11:29

don't understand these positions you don't know

11:31

how good someone can be at it,

11:33

there's times where you don't think you're

11:36

vulnerable, where you're incredibly vulnerable. Like, the

11:38

difference between a really good guard player

11:40

in MMA and like Paul Craig, for

11:42

example, he submitted some of the best

11:45

two world champions off of his back

11:47

in the light heavyweight division. Jamal Hill

11:49

and the current champion, Uncle Live. Uncle

11:51

Live's only defeat. is to Paul Craig.

11:54

Because he's just wicked off of his

11:56

back. So everybody feels comfortable. In MMA,

11:58

there's only a couple guys like Olivera.

12:00

You gotta really watch your peas and

12:03

cues. There's a few guys that are

12:05

just wicked off of their back, but

12:07

no one's like Paul Craig. And so

12:10

if you're just used to fighting regular

12:12

guys off of their back, and so

12:14

if you're just used to fighting around

12:16

your fucking... It's just so tightened up,

12:19

just, it just locks it up so

12:21

fast. It's fascinating to watch the difference

12:23

between like a really good guard player

12:25

and someone is just a regular MMA

12:28

fighter who knows how to do a

12:30

triangle, but really doesn't have like the

12:32

elaborate setups. Many ways that's in the

12:35

elaborate setups. Many ways that's in a

12:37

large scale what Hoist was doing back

12:39

in the day. Sure. No one had

12:41

any ideas when they're grabbing his guy.

12:44

Think they had a huge advantage. They

12:46

had a huge advantage. They had a

12:48

huge advantage. They had a huge advantage.

12:50

They had a huge advantage. They had

12:53

a huge advantage. They had a huge

12:55

advantage. They had a huge advantage. So

12:57

the Leglock game was outside of the

12:59

conceptual scheme to so many Jiu-Jitsu guys.

13:02

It was forbidden. It was forbidden. So

13:04

they'd get caught. It's like that dogma.

13:06

Like it's so interesting competitively finding where

13:09

someone's dogma is, where their constructs are,

13:11

their false constructs. Well there's a good

13:13

argument for it with the ghee, with

13:15

young guys. Oh for sure. Yeah, because...

13:18

Not shredding each other's ankles all the

13:20

time. Yeah, ripping these apart, where they're

13:22

not going to be able to be

13:24

able to be prepared. You know, I

13:27

mean how many people have ruined their

13:29

knees forever from a heel hook? A

13:31

large number. I would imagine if there's

13:34

any technique that sort of ruined an

13:36

athlete's career, the heel hook would probably

13:38

be number one. I started training Jiu-jitsu.

13:40

Really? Yeah, because I was doing stand-up

13:43

stuff and I was competing everywhere in

13:45

my, I was doing Chinese martial arts

13:47

and my teacher's son Max Chen, he

13:49

was a Sancho fighter and on the

13:52

U.S. national team, really good stand-up fighter

13:54

and he was... studying UFC before I

13:56

had even looked at it. And then

13:58

he was studying, I think it was

14:01

Frank Shamrock's, double heel hook, shit, from

14:03

way early days. And he was just

14:05

like, let's just continue to the ground.

14:08

And I had never ground fought before.

14:10

And I ended up in the ground.

14:12

And I ended up in the ground.

14:14

And he just put me in the

14:17

heel hooks and double heel hooks. My

14:19

knees were exploding. He had no idea

14:21

what the fuck he was doing. Oh

14:23

no. You didn't even know how to

14:26

grab it with you with a heel

14:28

hook. That's so awful. The first submission

14:30

I felt my life was like the

14:33

heel hook 20 times. Somehow my ACL

14:35

didn't shred. And I was like, I

14:37

have to fucking train this Jiu-Jitsu, because

14:39

Max is kicking my ass. And I

14:42

like it. So then that's how it

14:44

all began. Well, Hoise was brilliant in

14:46

wearing the ghee, because it made people

14:48

grab it. Yeah. They thought they had

14:51

an advantage that he had something to

14:53

grab. And next, you know, he's like,

14:55

he clenched around you. He dragged you

14:57

to the ground. It's an amazing idea,

15:00

right. They had no idea that they

15:02

were entering. You know, he spent his

15:04

life people grabbing him. He's spent his

15:07

life, he's injured his, that changed the

15:09

whole world, didn't it? Oh my God,

15:11

changed the whole world, changed what street

15:13

fights look like, changed everything. Those first,

15:16

um, those first UFCs were just wild.

15:18

Nuts. Wow. Just the bizarre. The first

15:20

UFC I worked was UFC12. Yeah. In

15:22

Dothan, Alabama. Yeah. I didn't take a

15:25

propeller plane. I had to fly into,

15:27

I think we flew into Birmingham or

15:29

somewhere. And then we had to take

15:32

a propeller plane to Dothan. I was

15:34

like, what am I doing? This is

15:36

so ridiculous. But I wanted to just

15:38

see it live because I'd only seen

15:41

it on television. I'd only see it.

15:43

it. I'd never seen a live cage

15:45

fight before. I'm like, this has got

15:47

to be crazy. So you have seen

15:50

12. How long after the first was

15:52

that? Wells 97, so it was four

15:54

years later. Four years later. Yeah. Wow.

15:57

Man, you've been on that journey from

15:59

the beginning. Yeah. Everybody was like, what

16:01

are you doing? Don't be associated with

16:03

this. So many people were telling me

16:06

not to be associated with it. It

16:08

was like I was doing snuff films

16:10

or something. You know, it's like, why

16:12

are you doing this? You're an actor.

16:15

Like, okay. I don't know what to

16:17

tell you. Yeah, I like it. I

16:19

want to go watch. I needed to

16:21

see it. And you were training at

16:24

that point? Oh yeah. Yeah, I'd already

16:26

started doing Jiu-Jitsu. I started Jiu-Jitsu at

16:28

96. You were training at Hicksons then,

16:31

right? Started Hicksons, and then I went

16:33

from Hicksons to Carlson Gracies. I didn't

16:35

know. I thought all Gracies were the

16:37

same. Like this Gracey is closer. I'll

16:40

go this Gracey. They all love each

16:42

other. And I didn't understand. They were

16:44

all tooth and claw at each other

16:46

back then. Each other back then. I

16:49

knew Carlson's from I think the show

16:51

is extreme fighting, the John Paretti show.

16:53

So John Paretti who worked for the

16:56

UFC then branched off and had another

16:58

thing called extreme fighting. And that's where

17:00

Conan Silvera came from and a bunch

17:02

of like elite UFC fighters. Mario Sperry

17:05

fought his first fights over there. So

17:07

it was like a really good competitive

17:09

organization. that was like right up there

17:11

with the UFC back in the day.

17:14

And so I had Carlson Gracie's name

17:16

was on that all the time and

17:18

they showed some training footage of them

17:20

training. So I found out about that

17:23

place and that was right when Vitor

17:25

Belfort was emerging. So Vitor was 19.

17:27

So I was training at the same

17:30

gym as Vitor. It was incredible. Just

17:32

watching him train, you know, he was

17:34

a freak. Like just an athletic freak.

17:36

and so and with his hand And

17:39

everybody knew he was a black belt

17:41

under Carlson Gracie, so everybody expected just

17:43

Chichitsu and this guy comes out with

17:45

little MMA gloves on and just starts

17:48

tuning people up on the feet. You're

17:50

like, whoa, a black belt who can

17:52

do that? Like, where's this coming from?

17:55

Like, this is a totally new thing.

17:57

So that was the first fight that

17:59

I attended. And that was the first

18:01

fight I worked. USC 12. Wow. Those

18:04

nuts. of transitions and developing frames where

18:06

other people don't have them, like it's

18:08

so interesting how it's manifest in every

18:10

art. In everything. Like I remember when

18:13

I was playing chess, because I was

18:15

a chess player from age six to

18:17

23, that was my first, my first

18:19

art. And you weren't just chess player,

18:22

you're a chess player that made a

18:24

movie about, dude. Yeah. I didn't have

18:26

that much to do with me, man.

18:29

They did that. Searching for Bobby Fishers

18:31

about you, bro. Yeah. You know, which

18:33

has got to be weird. Many moons

18:35

ago, that was fucking weird. Was it

18:38

weird? The dramatic representation of your life?

18:40

Like, what is that juxtaposition like? Is

18:42

it bizarre watching a fake version of

18:44

you on television or on a screen

18:47

rather? And did you have like a

18:49

feeling like, am I that person? I'm

18:51

not that person. Like, I am me.

18:54

This is not really me, but it's

18:56

about me. Yeah. This episode is brought

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20:58

came out when I was 11 years

21:01

old. My dad actually wrote the book.

21:03

He was a writer and he ended

21:05

up just writing about the journey from

21:07

me starting to play chess to winning

21:10

my first national championship. And when the

21:12

book came out it felt like I

21:14

read it and it felt like I

21:16

read it and it felt true. I

21:19

was a little pissed off because they

21:21

didn't want people to know when I

21:23

cried. I didn't want to be vulnerable.

21:26

Right. But like that felt like and

21:28

that was my first real thrust real

21:30

thrust into the... into like some degree

21:32

of spotlight and then and I was

21:35

the national champion at that point I

21:37

was each year for those years so

21:39

I was at the top of the

21:41

chess world the youth chess world and

21:44

then I had the movie come out

21:46

the book come out and then when

21:48

the movie came out it was a

21:51

shit show I hated the movie when

21:53

it first came out why did you

21:55

hate it because I thought it had

21:57

nothing to do with my life years

22:00

later I was able to see it

22:02

as a work of art separate from

22:04

my life and see it that way

22:06

and I was able to See how

22:09

it was thematically true in many ways

22:11

to themes like themes in my life

22:13

But like my first teacher Bruce Pendelfini

22:15

who's still a very dear friend of

22:18

mine Ben Kingsley played him as this

22:20

mean guy And I've had terrible coaches

22:22

in my life. I've had coaches who

22:25

were super destructive, but Bruce wasn't he

22:27

was beautiful and and loving and helped

22:29

me discover my love for chess my

22:31

first coaches were the Hustlers in Washington

22:34

Square Park and Bruce panel Feeney together.

22:36

And the way that was represented, I

22:38

didn't like it. They also combined a

22:40

bunch of characters in Washington Square Park,

22:43

the hustle that combined them into one

22:45

in a way that, you know, was

22:47

thematically true, but didn't feel... So like

22:50

when you're a kid, you're a teenager,

22:52

you see all the difference, a movie

22:54

comes out about your life, you see

22:56

all the differences, as opposed to the

22:59

similarities. That was a big part of

23:01

it because I love Bruce. Did you

23:03

talk to him about it? Oh yeah.

23:05

What was his take on it? I

23:08

mean, was he named Bruce in the

23:10

movie? Yeah, he was named Bruce in

23:12

the movie and he, I mean, he,

23:14

honestly he loved it. I mean, he

23:17

put him in the spotlight as like

23:19

the, the chess teacher in, you know,

23:21

in the country, in the world. So

23:24

he rolled with it really well. I

23:26

was just sensitive to all of... Like

23:28

all these mean-spirited things that happened between

23:30

us in the film that never happened

23:33

in life. And years later, like those

23:35

things did happen to me. And actually

23:37

during those years, when it came out,

23:39

they were happening to me then. What

23:42

was interesting is I had some really

23:44

destructive coaches during that time. And I

23:46

didn't put that on Bruce. But also

23:49

what happened with the movie is that

23:51

I love chess. so deeply. It was

23:53

my first form of self-expression. And up

23:55

until the film came out, it was

23:58

just sort of this pre-conscious, innocent form

24:00

of play, of battle, of, of, like

24:02

it was my, it was my juicip

24:04

mats. It was, I fucking loved it.

24:07

And, and then the movie is what

24:09

pulled me into self-consciousness for the first

24:11

time. I started thinking about, how I

24:13

looked to groupies, to cameras, to. So

24:16

like I moved from self-expression to self-consciousness

24:18

to being locked up and then, you

24:20

know, and I didn't ask for, I

24:23

didn't decide I wouldn't have a movie.

24:25

This thing was done. It was ultimately,

24:27

I mean, I'm grateful for it. From

24:29

my perspective now, the existential crisis that

24:32

happened was awesome for me. It forced

24:34

me to become more complicated as a

24:36

human and integrate a sense of consciousness

24:38

into my relationship to something. So my

24:41

perspective on it now is that it

24:43

was a beautiful journey. It made me

24:45

grapple with a lot of shit. I

24:48

didn't become reliant on a flower garden

24:50

in order to have a deep relationship

24:52

to an art. But at the time,

24:54

I was very conflicted about it. And

24:57

then when I graduated high school, I

24:59

took off and left the US for...

25:01

a couple years, lived in Slovenia with

25:03

my girlfriend at the time, to get

25:06

away from the spotlight, to get away

25:08

from the media, get away from all

25:10

the shit that was connected to the

25:12

movie. And that was when I started

25:15

studying East Asian philosophy and meditating and

25:17

started reading Jack Kerouac and existentialist literature

25:19

and trying to figure myself out, figure

25:22

out how I related to these things

25:24

in some empty space. What's a tremendous

25:26

burden to place upon a young person

25:28

to take their life which is essentially

25:31

anonymous? You know? to the general public,

25:33

you know, known in the chess world,

25:35

obviously, but in the general public, anonymous,

25:37

and then all of a movie star,

25:40

and not a movie star in the

25:42

sense that you're on the screen, but

25:44

it's about you, which is probably even

25:47

weirder. So you have these false expectations

25:49

or false... false narratives of how your

25:51

life played out and who the people

25:53

and who the piece and so everywhere

25:56

you run into people they have a

25:58

version of you that they've seen that's

26:00

not real and they think they know

26:02

you very intimately which is weird but

26:05

they don't same I mean with you

26:07

where you're so public right everyone probably

26:09

most people think they know who you

26:12

are and what at least they know

26:14

me from me talking yeah it's a

26:16

really they don't know me imagine if

26:18

like Mario Lopez played me in a

26:21

movie less handsome than Mario Lopez. But

26:23

and then you would have this thing

26:25

where like, oh, you're the guy that

26:27

that guy played in the movie. And

26:30

I'd be like, yeah, but it's not

26:32

really, I don't, that's not really me.

26:34

I didn't have that problem. This is

26:36

not real. That's not real. I didn't

26:39

have that problem. This is not real.

26:41

That's fake. And also when you're a

26:43

teenager, you're susceptible to all of the

26:46

temptations with sitting. for six hours at

26:48

a time in competition playing chess. No,

26:50

it was probably destructive too, right? Quite

26:52

destructive. Yeah, which is interesting and you

26:55

have to integrate all of that. How

26:57

old were you when the film came

26:59

out? 15. Yeah, that is a crazy

27:01

time to get any kind of attention.

27:04

Because you're you're just getting testosterone for

27:06

the first time. You're like, what is

27:08

all this? Right. And your body is

27:11

growing. It was flowing hard. Yeah. And

27:13

you're becoming a man? Now also and

27:15

girls like you like you like you,

27:17

like you like you like you, like

27:20

you, like you, like you like, like.

27:22

What is this about? This is craziness.

27:24

I already had a very strange life

27:26

because, and I think like a foundational

27:29

part of my psychology came from, so

27:31

I started playing chess when I was

27:33

six years old. By the time I

27:35

was seven I was the top rated

27:38

player for my age in the country.

27:40

My first national championship I got my

27:42

ass kicked, which was tremendous. It was

27:45

great. Last round I lost, last round

27:47

of my first nationals I lost. To

27:49

the guy who later became my... best

27:51

friend for many many years David Arnett.

27:54

And you say tremendous because was that

27:56

like a jumping point for improvement for

27:58

you? Because I didn't learn that I

28:00

could win without getting my ass kicked

28:03

first. I had to grapple with my

28:05

demons and I relate, the year from

28:07

then to winning my nationals, my first

28:10

nationals the next year was when I

28:12

really developed a love for chess and

28:14

I had to work very hard and

28:16

I didn't associate winning the nationals with

28:19

talent or a smooth trip or all

28:21

the bullshit that people can connect when

28:23

they have, when they're... call the prodigy

28:25

from the outside. It's not a term

28:28

I ever related to myself at all,

28:30

but like when these labels are put

28:32

on from the outside and if you

28:34

win too fast, too young, you can

28:37

just develop this relationship to, this brittle

28:39

relationship to success and to training and

28:41

to everything, right? You don't realize that

28:44

getting your ass kicked is a huge

28:46

part of the journey. That's a problem

28:48

with very talented fighters as well. a

28:50

lot of very talented martial artists, they

28:53

never developed the discipline to truly become

28:55

great because like from the very beginning

28:57

they had and whatever the advantage was,

28:59

whether it's a speed advantage, a strength

29:02

advantage. I mean genetics plays such a

29:04

large part in martial arts success. You

29:06

know if you have someone who's an

29:09

elite mind who is incredibly disciplined and

29:11

also has great genetics, you get a

29:13

Mike Tyson. Well, that's amazing. Yeah, you

29:15

have that combination. That's what you're looking

29:18

for. That's what you're looking for. But

29:20

if you don't have that, and Mike

29:22

Tyson is competing, you're a division, you're

29:24

fucked. Like, you can be really disciplined,

29:27

but like, so genetics do have, they

29:29

do play a factor. circumstances, coaching, there's

29:31

a lot of different factors. But if

29:33

you're a real prodigy and there are

29:36

people out there that are just extraordinary

29:38

from the beginning, I find that if

29:40

success comes too quickly, you don't develop

29:43

the metal to really push through boundaries

29:45

and reach new levels because the only

29:47

way you get there is through, you

29:49

have to, I think oftentimes training becomes,

29:52

it becomes regimented, becomes some you do,

29:54

you see incremental growth and improvement, you

29:56

get confidence, you're, but then when you

29:58

compete, if you get your ass kicked,

30:01

then you have to kind of reassess

30:03

everything. Like, okay, was I working at

30:05

10 or was I working at 8?

30:08

Was I studying tape or was I

30:10

studying tape or was I fucking tape

30:12

or was I fucking off and calling

30:14

girls? You know, was I paying attention

30:17

to my training routine and my recovery

30:19

or was I just training and partying

30:21

and partying? Like, what was I just

30:23

training and partyinging to beat me? Yeah.

30:26

And if you don't have those moments

30:28

where you lose, I don't think you

30:30

ever really achieve your true potential, because

30:32

you have to be challenged. And the

30:35

best expression of challenge is total humiliating

30:37

defeat. Absolutely. And so consistently, the biggest

30:39

losses, the most crushing losses, or would

30:42

lead to the biggest wins later. Sometimes

30:44

many years later, but it like that.

30:46

And people often, I remember, I was

30:48

giving a simultaneous chess exhibition for a

30:51

charity when, you know, in my 20s

30:53

somewhere and this guy introduced his son

30:55

and he said his son hadn't lost

30:57

a chess game in two years and

31:00

he was so proud and it's just

31:02

like I knew it was a fucking

31:04

train wreck. I mean the kid obviously

31:07

just was only choosing people to play

31:09

who he could beat wouldn't compete up

31:11

in tournaments would only play down and

31:13

he was just and he was the

31:16

only kid who didn't want to play

31:18

against me in the simul. And so

31:20

his life was protecting this perfect perfect

31:22

thing right. The interesting thing that happened

31:25

to my psychology is that I was

31:27

the top rated player from my age

31:29

and the country from a young age,

31:31

but I always played up. I always

31:34

played against adults, except for nationals and

31:36

worlds I played up. And so, and

31:38

all of my rivals were targeting me

31:41

because I was the top seed in

31:43

youth events, but their coaches were much

31:45

stronger players than me. They were adult

31:47

international masters grandmasters, and they could see

31:50

all my weaknesses. Psychological, psychological, technical, everything.

31:52

And so if I ever made a

31:54

mistake, the weakness was exploited. until I

31:56

took it on. And so I developed

31:59

from really young ages relationship to training,

32:01

which was if I didn't take on

32:03

my weakness, I got my ass kicked

32:06

and I felt pain. And so not

32:08

taking on my weakness became outside of

32:10

my conceptual scheme. So from age eight,

32:12

I just, and it can be a

32:15

blind spot like today in life, like

32:17

a criticism of me that something loved

32:19

ones would have is that I'm just,

32:21

I love training. I love pushing my

32:24

limit as a way of life in

32:26

whatever I'm doing. If it was chess,

32:28

if it was fighting, now it's foiling,

32:30

surfing, and then foiling in the biggest

32:33

waves I can find. And like just

32:35

if I'm playing at my edge, I

32:37

feel, it feels beautiful. It feels like

32:40

where I want to be. But the

32:42

comfort zone doesn't feel beautiful. And to

32:44

me, that works really well. But it's

32:46

a big part of like my foundation

32:49

in that was being eight years old

32:51

and being eight years old and being

32:53

targeted. And I

32:55

wasn't until recently that I realized that

32:57

it was actually outside of my conceptual

33:00

scheme not to take on the weakness

33:02

because it was just connected to pain

33:04

from such a young age as a

33:06

competitor. There's no luck in chess. There's

33:08

no fucking luck in chess. If you

33:10

have, like if you're playing chess, if

33:12

you have an opening repertoire that's massive.

33:14

And you go into a game and

33:16

there's one little place that there's a

33:18

weakness and you don't want your opponent

33:21

to go, he always fucking finds it.

33:23

You don't know why. You never like

33:25

make a move and hope he doesn't

33:27

see it. Or let's hit this trap

33:29

and it's not the best move, but

33:31

maybe he'll fall into it. No, that

33:33

never works at a high level. So

33:35

you just, you have to take your

33:37

shit on. So you associate it with

33:40

anything, I just don't do it. Right.

33:42

Yeah. And that's a try. That's a

33:44

better way to handle it. To recognize

33:46

there's a real process. There's the right

33:48

way to do this. It's the only

33:50

way to do this. So don't even

33:52

think about the other way. Right. But

33:54

if it's kind of driving you, for

33:56

me, I think it's healthier for me

33:58

to recognize that pattern of myself and

34:01

then roll with it as opposed to

34:03

just not even see. like that it's

34:05

there that it's there right yeah well

34:07

yeah acknowledge well you have to have

34:09

acknowledgement of it because you have memories

34:11

like if I'm cooking a turkey I

34:13

have to cook a world-class turkey I

34:15

have a friend Jim Detmer who says

34:17

to me Joshua you have to do

34:20

is cook a terrible turkey just cook

34:22

a cook an average turkey you know

34:24

don't crush it in other words like

34:26

don't it's an interesting thing when you

34:28

become present to the fact that you

34:30

have this like youthful story running through

34:32

everything you do live that way, but

34:34

it's good for it to be a

34:36

choice as opposed to just driving you.

34:39

It's definitely good for it to be

34:41

a choice. It's always good for it

34:43

to be choice because sometimes life will...

34:45

you know there's a curve that you

34:47

have to take and you have to

34:49

put something aside for a bit or

34:51

maybe forever and you have to be

34:53

able to transition to something else and

34:55

if you can't do that then you'll

34:57

be stuck yeah and you see a

35:00

lot of that with martial arts people

35:02

you know most of us at a

35:04

certain point in time realize that injuries

35:06

are not just inevitable but at a

35:08

certain point in time you go maybe

35:10

I should stop doing this because training

35:12

no matter what you do training is

35:14

all about you using your body as

35:16

a weapon and someone using their body

35:19

as a weapon whether it's martial arts

35:21

like stand-up fighting or whether it's jitsu

35:23

it's the same thing you're you're trying

35:25

to you're trying to isolate joints you're

35:27

trying to cut off blood and you're

35:29

resisting all these things and all the

35:31

weak points get exposed shoulders knees ankles

35:33

back neck all those things get exposed

35:35

and if you're a meathead like I've

35:37

been in the past you train through

35:40

injuries and they get chronic and then

35:42

you get to a certain point we're

35:44

like what am I doing and if

35:46

you can't transition to something else if

35:48

you can't find something else to do

35:50

with your time then you're a cripple

35:52

then you're getting your tenth surgery on

35:54

your back and you're still trying to

35:56

train and everybody's like look at Bob

35:59

he's crazy he's got all his disc

36:01

fused but he's still training Like, maybe

36:03

Bob shouldn't be training. Like, maybe Bob's

36:05

gonna break something else now. Like, maybe

36:07

it's time to move on to something

36:09

else. And if you don't have this

36:11

ability to constantly take on new projects

36:13

and be excited by different things, you're

36:15

gonna have a shallow life. Like, life

36:17

has so many challenges and so many

36:20

fascinating things to dive into. For you,

36:22

now, it's foiling. For a while, Jiu-jitsu,

36:24

chess, like anything like that. You'll find

36:26

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37:50

Just who was the art

37:52

I had to move on from not

37:55

on my own terms because I ruptured

37:57

my L-405 disc. There it is. Train.

37:59

Train. on it like a crazy person

38:01

for like a couple years and then

38:04

the doctors looked at that and they

38:06

just like if you keep on doing

38:08

this you're not gonna walk you're not

38:10

gonna be able to play ball with

38:13

it like now it's great now yeah

38:15

yeah I mean it's a little bit

38:17

of the foiling probably makes your core

38:20

like incredibly strong yeah I mean I

38:22

I've done a lot of stuff I

38:24

mean I spent you I never had

38:26

surgery. They all told me to, but

38:29

I didn't have surgery. And I did

38:31

tons of, I mean, I've been doing

38:33

total immersion swimming and foundation training and

38:35

everything I could do for the back.

38:38

And the foiling feels, I'm training, like

38:40

I'm all in on this art, and

38:42

I'm doing it in a way that

38:45

feels healthy in the back. I trained

38:47

Jitsu now, but light. I can't train

38:49

all out, like I'd love to, like

38:51

I'd love to. It was hard breaking,

38:54

madly in love and all in with

38:56

Marcello and having that like I was

38:58

at that part of the learning process

39:00

which is where I get good at

39:03

the learning process which is like toward

39:05

the higher levels of something that's where

39:07

I'm best. At learning? Did you have

39:10

a small injury that got worse over

39:12

time or did you have a significant

39:14

moment where you realized you heard it?

39:16

I was so stupid. No, it was

39:19

a significant moment. I was position sparring.

39:21

Marcello was at our school in New

39:23

York. It was a week before my

39:26

eldest son Jack was born. So it

39:28

was bit over 13 years ago. Marcello

39:30

was gone. I was at the school.

39:32

Paul Shriner was running. class that day

39:35

I think and there was this 240

39:37

pound blue belt visiting just just like

39:39

ripped dude and Paul had everyone doing

39:41

position sparring half guard position sparring and

39:44

this guy was matched up against one

39:46

of our guys I've had that heuristic

39:48

invincible feeling about me in that moment

39:51

I was just when you're feeling at

39:53

your very best in martial flow and

39:55

I was like and it ended up

39:57

where we were doing half guard position

40:00

sparring where I was holding half guard

40:02

and he was doing this past twisting

40:04

the spine and it was so fucking

40:07

stupid to do it. I mean, I

40:09

was just holding half guard in a...

40:11

in like in position sparring and I

40:13

just felt it go and then like

40:16

you know it was I couldn't move

40:18

it was fucking terrible did it hernia

40:20

yeah and all the fluid gone oh

40:22

yeah and all the fluid gone oh

40:25

yeah it was brutal you know it

40:27

was and I remember so how was

40:29

the disc now couldn't list I couldn't

40:32

lift up my child for the first

40:34

three or four months of his life.

40:36

Then I had this strange period where

40:38

I couldn't, I could standing and walking

40:41

was the toughest. But then I had

40:43

this period, like if I had going

40:45

to the corner store to get milk,

40:48

like three or four months later, I'd

40:50

have to bike to the corner store

40:52

and come back. And I can't explain

40:54

this, but I had a period where

40:57

I couldn't walk, but I could ski.

40:59

Because of the angles. So Marcel and

41:01

I were going to the mountains around

41:03

New York just bombing down. I was

41:06

just trying to get my fix my

41:08

fix in. Just skiing without turning was

41:10

my goal. He was snowboarding, I was

41:13

skiing. You couldn't walk, but you could

41:15

ski. Yeah, it was a very strange

41:17

period. Don't, don't, don't, don't, fucking ski.

41:19

Yeah, it would have been a smart

41:22

thing to tell me. Yeah, I was

41:24

a dumbass for the first two years

41:26

after the injury. And then I, um,

41:29

and then I realized I had to,

41:31

yeah. They replaced them now. Eddie Bravo

41:33

got a fake disc in his lower

41:35

back a titanium disc and He's able

41:38

to train again. I know quite a

41:40

few guys have got them Al Jazeera

41:42

got one in his neck and then

41:44

went on to defend the U.S.C. Band

41:47

and weight championship several times. Yeah, they

41:49

replaced them all together. Mm-hmm. Yeah, they

41:51

put our artificial disks now Yeah, you

41:54

know your point about I remember I

41:56

was studying back in the early 2000

41:58

studying Eddie's game, suddenly rubber guard studying

42:00

all the twister stuff, just trying to

42:03

wrap my head around it. Yeah, he's

42:05

got some wild stuff. And if you're

42:07

not used to it, it's really interesting

42:09

to watch people. that just have never

42:12

encountered it before. When I would go

42:14

to train in other places, like I

42:16

lived in Colorado for a bit, and

42:19

I trained at Amal Eastons, and when

42:21

I'd go up there, there's so many

42:23

positions that guys just didn't understand. They

42:25

didn't know what was going on. They

42:28

figured it out after a while, like,

42:30

oh, if he goes this way, he's

42:32

gonna try to set this up. But

42:35

there's certain things that people do all

42:37

the time, like especially like put your

42:39

hands on your hands. This is like

42:41

one of Eddie's best black belts with

42:44

rubber guard. And the way he does

42:46

it is phenomenal. He has incredible leg

42:48

dexterity and his technique is so sharp.

42:50

And he catches people and stuff and

42:53

they're like, how am I even stuck

42:55

here? Do you find that that's... Yeah,

42:57

here it is. Yeah. So watch how

43:00

quick he sets things up. It's like

43:02

right away. You're in your fuxville like

43:04

like who does this who sets up

43:06

a go-go plot to right off the

43:09

bat and then triangles it look how

43:11

he sets this up. I mean this

43:13

is insane and just massive crank on

43:16

your fucking neck. Yeah And switches it

43:18

to oma-plata re-rolls Yeah, oma-plata crucifix finish.

43:20

Yeah And everything

43:22

he does involves this incredible dexterity and

43:24

flexibility. There's like a whole series of

43:27

highlights. That's not even some of his

43:29

best stuff, but he's able to do

43:31

this to people that just don't know

43:33

what he's doing. Like, they don't understand

43:35

some of these transitions. And this is

43:37

just like one of the best expressions

43:39

of the techniques that Eddie's developed. So

43:42

like, Jeremiah's fantastic at that. this this

43:44

particular technique of being able to isolate

43:46

the alma plata and then secure a

43:48

choke in the transition he does this

43:50

to everybody look at how this transition

43:52

right here is so nasty. Yeah. It's

43:55

so nasty and you just you don't

43:57

know what the fuck you're doing. How

43:59

am I getting out of this? I

44:01

mean he just hits this over and

44:03

over and over on people and so

44:05

many times and people go for an

44:07

oma plota people say okay I worst-case

44:10

scenario I might roll out of this

44:12

and wind up on my back and

44:14

side control but not with him. You're

44:16

like this is like you're really close

44:18

to checkmate from the moment the the

44:20

oma plota plota set up from a

44:23

position where you're defending you're defending. So

44:25

you're defending correctly from the alma plata

44:27

and that winds up setting up this

44:29

choke. What was your... How do you

44:31

feel about Ryan Hall's game in MMA?

44:33

Because he also is entering the MMA

44:35

game. Oh, he's been in the MMA

44:38

game for quite a while. Yeah. No,

44:40

but I mean, when he entered the

44:42

game, he came into it with a

44:44

repertoire that was so unusual for. Very

44:46

unusual. Well, he's really, really smart, obviously.

44:48

And when you see his style, the

44:51

problem with his style, in my opinion,

44:53

is it's so jujitsu heavy. that he's

44:55

vulnerable when he's fighting world-class strikers. Like

44:57

Iliad Toporia smashed him. And it was

44:59

a horrible, horrible knockout. It's because Ilias

45:01

is a legit Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu black belt,

45:03

but also like way more technical on

45:06

the feet. And when you're fighting a

45:08

guy who's just any one mistake you

45:10

make... in striking is a concussion. Any

45:12

one mistake, boom, a big hand's coming,

45:14

a knee's coming, a kick's coming, it's

45:16

like something's coming if you make mistakes.

45:19

It's just like being a blue belt

45:21

rolling with a high level black belt.

45:23

It's the same thing. It's like you're

45:25

just way too vulnerable. So his Jiu-jitsu

45:27

is off the charts, but his stand-up

45:29

is not at the level of his

45:31

Jiu-jitsu. And that's just a real problem

45:34

today. It's very hard. You can kind

45:36

of be a specialist if you're a

45:38

specialist if you're a specialist if you're

45:40

a striker if you're a striker if

45:42

you're a striker if you're a striker.

45:44

Striker like there's a few guys that

45:47

can pull it off if they're really

45:49

strong and they have good takedown defense

45:51

like Pereira is the best example right

45:53

two division world champion kickboxer comes over

45:55

dominates becomes a two division UFC champion

45:57

as a striker because every fight starts

45:59

standing up. But if you don't know

46:02

how to strike, every fight starts standing

46:04

up. So the beginning of the fight

46:06

is always something you're not good at.

46:08

And if you're getting tagged at the

46:10

very beginning of the fight and now

46:12

you're in desperation mode, and all this

46:15

person has to do, it's an enormous

46:17

space they're fighting in. The octagon and

46:19

the cage of the octagon. Actually makes

46:21

it easier to get up if someone

46:23

takes you down. So there's a lot

46:25

of elements that wouldn't even exist if

46:27

you had a flat surface with no

46:30

walls So it's easier to defend. It's

46:32

it's easier to move around because it's

46:34

an enormous surface So you're now chasing

46:36

this person and you might have already

46:38

gotten a concussion You might have already

46:40

been rocked so you're already like a

46:43

little out of it and now you're

46:45

like desperado mode. It's just a bad

46:47

place to be that you have world-class

46:49

striking to compete at a world-class level

46:51

in MMA at this point. Yeah You

46:53

have to have something, at the very

46:55

least, you have to be really good

46:58

defensively, really good, but then you're just

47:00

going to get picked apart on the

47:02

feet. Your legs are going to get

47:04

kicked, you're going to get brutalized. Yeah,

47:06

you have to be a really good

47:08

striker. And Ryan is one of those

47:11

guys that's a specialist and, you know,

47:13

he tapped a lot. I mean, tapped

47:15

B.J. Penn in like 10 seconds. He's

47:17

tapped a lot of guys. When he

47:19

gets a hold of you, you're in

47:21

this complex web of transitions and techniques

47:23

that if you're just a regular MMA

47:26

fighter who trains you just two three

47:28

times a week, you're not gonna know

47:30

what he's doing. Yeah. He's a brilliant

47:32

guy. He's a brilliant guy. in New

47:34

York, I think, from 2010, 2012, that

47:36

range. And it was so interesting watching

47:39

him and Marcello. Because Ryan had a

47:41

huge amount of humility relative to Marcello.

47:43

And he wanted to train with him.

47:45

And Marcello was so curious about Ryan's

47:47

game. And he was so curious about

47:49

Ryan's game. But Marcello was so curious

47:51

about Ryan's game. But Marcello was so

47:54

curious about Ryan's game. And so in

47:56

competition, he would be better at my

47:58

game than me. the fight before they

48:00

went against him. And he'd pick up

48:02

on some kind of elemental read. He

48:04

has this, he's what I call a

48:07

low rep learner. His ability to learn

48:09

from a single repetition is just unbelievable.

48:11

And it was really interesting watching him

48:13

and Ryan, because Ryan, and Ryan just

48:15

came and visited me in my home

48:17

a month ago. And we were talking

48:19

about how formative those training experiences with

48:22

Marcello were. And it was like. One

48:24

way that Ryan described it is that

48:26

he had this layers of traps seven

48:28

steps in. But Marcello had this deep

48:30

understanding upstream of that. And it was

48:32

like watching Marcello put himself like right

48:35

next to the fire, like right next

48:37

to Ryan's game, he wanted to learn

48:39

the edges of Ryan's game, but never

48:41

enter it. And his ability to play

48:43

right at the threshold of all of

48:45

Ryan's traps, which he could pull almost

48:48

everyone else into, in just pure grappling,

48:50

right? And, but not just... His ability

48:52

to learn from a single rep is

48:54

like a cat putting its paw right

48:56

up against the edge of a fire.

48:58

And just like learning about what heat

49:00

was and deconstructing it, but then not

49:03

ever getting into the heat. You know,

49:05

and I, and you watch Ryan roll

49:07

anyone else, he could just pull them

49:09

into the fire, into the spider web.

49:11

That's fascinating. Marcella has a really incredibly

49:13

deep, almost simian physical intelligence. And his

49:16

ability to learn from a single rep

49:18

is unique in my observation in my

49:20

observation. That's amazing. Ryan has had a

49:22

ton of surgeries, hasn't he? Oh yeah,

49:24

man, that dude has had such bad

49:26

look. What is wrong with him? What's

49:28

going on? Some shit with, I mean,

49:31

tons of stuff with his knee, with

49:33

his hip, with, I think he's starting

49:35

to come back, I think his shoulder's

49:37

up something now. He's still, you know,

49:39

he's said like nine. Twenty-three, I think

49:41

he said 23 surgeries. Dude. Oh God.

49:44

Yeah, I don't know exactly. I haven't

49:46

seen any of it. What did he

49:48

get done to his hip? Ask him.

49:50

I don't know. Yeah, he's had a

49:52

lot of surgery. someone just fell on

49:54

him so was he training with someone

49:56

else and someone else no he was

49:59

he was training with somebody and he

50:01

was taking it easy on them in

50:03

a transition trying to not hurt them

50:05

and then they just collapsed on him

50:07

on his hip in a certain way

50:09

as he described it yeah brutal when

50:12

you were training did you do any

50:14

weightlifting just to sort of supplement it

50:16

to keep your joint strong and you're

50:18

yeah yeah I did a lot of

50:20

I tended to do weightlifting that was

50:22

consistent with the movement patterns of the

50:24

arts that I was training in. So

50:27

I would do a lot of biking,

50:29

lower body strength, and then I would

50:31

do, I wasn't, didn't have, I think

50:33

if I did it now, I would

50:35

do much more weightlifting. But when I

50:37

was rolling usually twice a week, six

50:40

days a week, and I was, I

50:42

would do cardio work in addition, and

50:44

then some like, some resistance work, but

50:46

I didn't. I wasn't, like I'm doing

50:48

a lot of work with the Boston

50:50

Celtics now and I'm seeing how they're,

50:52

for the last few years and I

50:55

see how they're up brilliant, their sports

50:57

science team and their physical trainers are

50:59

and like I don't think that I

51:01

was, when I was training Jitsu, I

51:03

was at the level of, for example,

51:05

the Boston Celtics in, in the resistance

51:08

training that I was doing and supplemented.

51:10

And Marcella didn't weight training, and that

51:12

was part of it, when I was

51:14

training with him, like I was training

51:16

with him, like, like I was training

51:18

with him, like, like, like, like, like,

51:20

like, like, like, like, like, like, like,

51:23

like, like, like, like, like, like, like,

51:25

like, like, like, like, like, like, like,

51:27

like, like, like, like, like, like, like,

51:29

like, like, like, like, like, like, like,

51:31

like, like, like, like, like, like, like,

51:33

He just rolls, man. And he was

51:36

biking, he was sitting to bike into

51:38

those bikes without breaks. We were biking

51:40

all over New York. Bikes without brakes?

51:42

Yeah. What do you mean? What are

51:44

they called? Yeah. What is that? Fix

51:46

wheel? Yeah, fixed wheel. What does that

51:48

mean? Just got no brakes. How do

51:51

you slow down? You got to slow

51:53

your foot on the edge of the

51:55

wheel? What? Yeah, fixed wheel biking. Biking.

51:57

I mean, he loved. fixed wheel around

51:59

New York and I was biking then

52:01

I switched over... Why would you ever

52:04

get on a bike with no brakes?

52:06

It's a... You control it. You're breaking.

52:08

I'll show you videos. Show me. People

52:10

love it but man in New York

52:12

it's quite something. I mean in New

52:14

York when you're going... down a hill

52:16

in New York City in traffic, there's

52:19

some adventures. You're going down a hill.

52:21

How are you fucking slowing down? Don't

52:23

go fast. Oh, what? We're going fast.

52:25

No, I mean, that's, you just got,

52:27

you're, you gotta see a high, this

52:29

isn't gonna be a good video. This

52:32

isn't gonna be a good video. This

52:34

is the dumbest thing I've ever heard

52:36

of in my life. This is something

52:38

I've ever heard of in New York.

52:40

Oh, five ways to stop on a

52:42

fixie. How about don't get a fixie?

52:44

Get breaks, you fucking idiot. This is

52:47

the dumbest shit I've ever seen in

52:49

my life. Why wouldn't you have breaks?

52:51

Why wouldn't you have an option to

52:53

control the bike better? This episode is

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like Simply Save. So the people that

54:17

ride these, they'd argue they control it

54:19

probably better. Yeah, look at all the

54:21

white people. All white people that'd be

54:24

doing backflips with skateboards. This is a

54:26

big New York thing though. I've been

54:28

really... Of course it is. They like

54:30

suffering over there. That's why they all

54:32

live jammed on top of each other.

54:34

That's so stupid. There's no good videos

54:36

on that. That's a stupid thing. There's

54:39

a movie I've seen. That's why I

54:41

saw it. Breaks. You fucking freaks. My

54:43

last two years living in New York,

54:45

I had fallen so in love with

54:47

surfing. And I was... I knew Ocean

54:49

Art's or my next chapter, and I

54:52

was so heartbroken not to be able

54:54

to do it every day. So I

54:56

got a one-wheel. It was like the

54:58

first generation, you know, the one-wheel electronic

55:00

skateboards, the one- Yeah, we had one

55:02

of those. It just came out, first

55:04

generation, and I was just like, thousands

55:07

of miles biking, one-wheeling, all- Yeah, we

55:09

like one of those. It just came

55:11

out, first generation, and I was just

55:13

like, like, thousands of, like, thousands of

55:15

miles, thousands of miles, like, like, like,

55:17

like, like, like, like, like, like, like,

55:20

like, like, like, like, like, like, like,

55:22

like, like, like, like, like, like, like,

55:24

like, like, like, like, like, like, like,

55:26

like, like, like, like, like, like, like,

55:28

like, like, like, like, like, like, like,

55:30

like, like, like, like, He's went like

55:32

23, 24 miles. It's a flack, right?

55:35

Over taxi cabs, under taxi cabs, through

55:37

taxi cabs, everything. The one wheel is

55:39

like when you're a kid, or sorry,

55:41

the fix, it's like, you just skid.

55:43

Oh, there is brakes. Like, yeah, you

55:45

slam on. Yeah, I guess that's a

55:48

better way to describe. Oh, okay. So

55:50

you can break. You can also reverse,

55:52

which you can do on most bikes.

55:54

You can ride backwards. Oh. Oh. It's

55:56

really beautiful. This wasn't, this, I never

55:58

did it, but it's really beautiful to

56:00

watch when it's done well. Okay, well

56:03

that makes me feel better than you

56:05

could just skid. Yeah, you could skid.

56:07

But you can stop. There's lots of

56:09

things that can go wrong. Yeah, it

56:11

seems like you, there are lots of

56:13

things that go wrong. Foiling, there's a

56:16

lot of fucking things that can go

56:18

wrong. You're 35, 40 miles an hour

56:20

on top of the guillotine. It took

56:22

me like three hours to get on

56:24

that fucking thing for the first time,

56:26

because I've never served. You're on an

56:28

Efoil? Yeah, Efoil? Yeah, it took me

56:31

forever. Just kept falling down, getting back

56:33

up, falling down. Meanwhile, my kids, my

56:35

youngest at the time, she was 12,

56:37

humiliated me. She just hopped on it

56:39

instantly, just scooting around and... Look, she

56:41

knew how to do it immediately. But

56:44

she wake boards, she does a lot

56:46

of that shit, she's really athletic, but

56:48

she was just humiliating me and I

56:50

was just like, I'm gonna put this

56:52

out. So for hours, I kept falling

56:54

down, getting back up, falling down, and

56:56

eventually I got it. And then once

56:59

I got it, it was like easy.

57:01

Once I got it, I was like,

57:03

oh, I see. Ef-oiling is the best,

57:05

it's like. it's the best way to

57:07

learn how to foil because they weigh

57:09

90 pounds the e-foils do like a

57:12

high performance big way for a high

57:14

performance foil the whole setup away four

57:16

or five pounds really yeah I mean

57:18

a e-foil you have a battery it's

57:20

heavy and you've got electricity to learn

57:22

how to you learn foil dynamics foiling

57:25

when you're high performance foiling in in

57:27

in big surf you're on a three

57:29

and a half footboard No, no batter

57:31

is it's not powered. It's just okay.

57:33

Just riding hydrodynamics. Are you getting towed

57:35

in these? You can paddle in or

57:37

But if you're towing in to bigger

57:40

waves, you're on a small board You're

57:42

getting towed in behind a jet ski

57:44

whipped in and then you're just riding.

57:46

It's epic. It's frictionless so beautiful. And

57:48

what's the benefit of that above surfing?

57:50

Is that you're above the water above

57:53

the water? You're not feet like the

57:55

ultimate if you think about the the

57:57

the the the the glassiest surfday surf

57:59

day surf day possible the frictionless feeling,

58:01

it's more frictionless than that because you're

58:03

above the water. Yeah, I get that

58:05

on the e-foil. When you get cooking

58:08

on the e-foil, you're above the water

58:10

and it's wild. I always feel like

58:12

I'm gonna fall. I'm gonna fall. I'm

58:14

gonna fall. As soon as I get

58:16

above the water, I'm like, okay, we're

58:18

going to wipe out. It's like the

58:21

ultimate receptivity because the foil picks up

58:23

on underwater wave circulation. So it's picking

58:25

up on lift when you're going. very

58:27

fast and also when you're in a

58:29

wave the waves have have upward circulation

58:31

at the face of the wave and

58:33

you get to the top of the

58:36

wave it accelerates and so your your

58:38

foil is riding the underwater currents and

58:40

you're receiving it so amplified so like

58:42

tiny little movements have big effect on

58:44

the thing so like the surf movement

58:46

will be very big and the foil

58:49

movement is very subtle the body mechanic

58:51

and then you learn to really crank

58:53

into it and it's limitless you can

58:55

do open water foiling, crossing oceans on

58:57

long high aspect wings riding open ocean

58:59

swells and you can you can push

59:01

like high performance foiling is just like

59:04

high performance surfing that the lines you

59:06

can draw the turns are epic the

59:08

G's are crazy so you're just all

59:10

in on this oh yeah I'm all

59:12

on this is an everyday thing for

59:14

you yes every day Say sandwich jitsu,

59:17

six days a week, twice a day

59:19

if possible. Really? Wow. Yeah. Wow. Do

59:21

you have goals? Virtuosity. Yeah, I competed

59:23

my whole life. And so now I

59:25

live, like, I train the way I

59:27

would if I was in a world

59:29

championship training camp. That's hilarious. With foiling

59:32

crazy. Who else is doing that? Just

59:34

a couple lunatics. How many other people

59:36

are foiling like they're training for a

59:38

world championship activity? Yeah. But the interesting

59:40

thing is, like I, yeah, I love

59:42

it. It's, um, but all these arts

59:45

to me are connected. That's the strange

59:47

thing about my art, like chess, Chinese

59:49

martial arts, Jitsu, surfing, foiling. To me,

59:51

the fascinating thing when you get toward

59:53

the pinnacle of an art is that

59:55

you start to experience, at least in

59:57

my, from my perspective, that the apexes

1:00:00

of these arts are much closer to

1:00:02

one another than... lower down in the

1:00:04

mountain of the same art. So people

1:00:06

who are virtuoso's in various fields are

1:00:08

often speaking a much more similar language

1:00:10

than people who are at lower levels

1:00:13

of the same art than their training.

1:00:15

And like when I think about about

1:00:17

chess I... related to chess through core

1:00:19

principles, and those principles manifest in the

1:00:21

martial arts. I remember that I had

1:00:23

this, this, um, when I wrote my

1:00:25

first book, the art of, or my

1:00:28

second book, The Art of Learning, it

1:00:30

was about my experience of crossing over

1:00:32

my level from chess into the Chinese

1:00:34

martial arts. And I had this really

1:00:36

interesting experience where I was giving a

1:00:38

simultaneous chess exhibition, playing 40 games at

1:00:41

once in a charity for Dushan Mosk

1:00:43

Law Dystrophy. But I was, at that

1:00:45

point I've been training. martial arts for

1:00:47

two years and I had not been

1:00:49

I'd kind of moved to I was

1:00:51

in the transition away from chess during

1:00:53

that period and I had this realization

1:00:56

that I was winning these chess games

1:00:58

playing 40 games at once but I

1:01:00

was not playing chess I was feeling

1:01:02

flow riding space left behind I was

1:01:04

riding the energetic wave of the game

1:01:06

like I would if we were flowing

1:01:09

on the mats but I was making

1:01:11

chess moves and I realized that these

1:01:13

arts had become fundamentally connected and then

1:01:15

That became like an area of interest

1:01:17

and of exploration. I started making what

1:01:19

I was doing unconsciously more and more

1:01:21

conscious and now when I relate to

1:01:24

The chess I don't move chess pieces

1:01:26

anymore, but chess is manifest in everything

1:01:28

that I do as is Jiu-jitsu And

1:01:30

as is like in the ocean arts.

1:01:32

I'm manifesting these other arts the core

1:01:34

principles I've experienced through them all the

1:01:37

time and that's one of the things

1:01:39

that I've been puzzled by for many

1:01:41

years is why chess is so fucking

1:01:43

hard. Like chess has no luck, the

1:01:45

best chess players in the world are

1:01:47

so brilliant at what they do. I

1:01:49

listen to your episode with Magnus Carlson.

1:01:52

He was great. Yeah, that was cool.

1:01:54

Like someone like Magnus, he's so fucking

1:01:56

good at what he does, such a

1:01:58

virtuoso. But if you look at the

1:02:00

top 100 or top thousand chess players,

1:02:02

they're tremendously strong. But when they try

1:02:05

to translate their ability to other fields,

1:02:07

they often can't. And it's surprising. And

1:02:09

it's surprising. And I've tried to figure

1:02:11

out why for a lot of years,

1:02:13

because you'd think like if you're able

1:02:15

to just be so excellent at something

1:02:17

that's super hard, you could take us

1:02:20

something that's relatively easier. become very good

1:02:22

at it. And I think that the

1:02:24

reason that people often can't cross level

1:02:26

over from one thing to the other

1:02:28

is that they learn it in a

1:02:30

localized language. So you can learn chess

1:02:33

in a way which is very specific

1:02:35

to chess, like principles that are just

1:02:37

chess principles. Or you can learn chess

1:02:39

in a language which connects to all

1:02:41

of life. And that won't slow down.

1:02:43

It might accelerate your chess learning. But

1:02:45

you can. But like, and if children

1:02:48

are taught games like chess or gymnastics

1:02:50

or music or whatever else, so they're

1:02:52

learning about that art very deeply, they're

1:02:54

touching quality, they're pushing their limits, they're

1:02:56

living a life of training as an

1:02:58

OU value very much, but they're doing

1:03:01

so in a language which connects to

1:03:03

the rest of life, then they're studying

1:03:05

thematic interconnectedness while they're studying chess or

1:03:07

chitsu or anything else. And then they're

1:03:09

just learning the language of excellence. Yeah,

1:03:11

and it's interesting because if you watch

1:03:13

chess player chess teachers teaching students Many

1:03:16

of them don't do this they teach

1:03:18

it within like the confines of the

1:03:20

chess board like a prison And if

1:03:22

you learn chess that way, then it's

1:03:24

like you're living on an island and

1:03:26

the ocean around you is Like prison

1:03:29

walls right, but if you study chess

1:03:31

in a way that You're learning how

1:03:33

each chess principle connects to every other

1:03:35

art you could ever study then just

1:03:37

this web of interconnectedness is forming in

1:03:39

your mind and then you take on

1:03:41

something else you're able to cross the

1:03:44

level over really really naturally and in

1:03:46

many ways that's my that's a big

1:03:48

part of my life's work is the

1:03:50

study of that interconnectedness. Do you think

1:03:52

that a huge well it had to

1:03:54

be a huge factor for you that

1:03:57

you were sort of forced to reevaluate

1:03:59

the way you interfaced with life when

1:04:01

you became famous because of the film

1:04:03

at 15 so childhood chess player, become

1:04:05

very well recognized, then all of a

1:04:07

sudden this movie, and now you have

1:04:09

to kind of like grapple with things,

1:04:12

and as you said, these challenges make

1:04:14

you more complex person. and then your

1:04:16

ability to sort of push chess aside

1:04:18

and try other things, do you think

1:04:20

that's because of, it has to be

1:04:22

a factor in your, this desire to

1:04:25

explore other things? Because you're kind of

1:04:27

thrust into this thing where your thing

1:04:29

is now changed. Your thing is now

1:04:31

not just flowing and learning and getting

1:04:33

better and doing battle with chess. Now

1:04:35

it's image and groupies and this bizarre

1:04:37

thing that you're living up to and

1:04:40

you don't like it and you want

1:04:42

to escape it. And so you have

1:04:44

to reevaluate. And so this forced reevaluation

1:04:46

from a young age at 15 years

1:04:48

old, this key developmental period as a

1:04:50

young man. It sort of opens you

1:04:53

up to the possibilities of all sorts

1:04:55

of different ways of living life and

1:04:57

all sorts of different things to do

1:04:59

with life. Yeah, a language I use

1:05:01

for this is the passage from the

1:05:03

pre-conscious to the post-conscious competitor or artist.

1:05:05

And like when I, up until 15,

1:05:08

I would relate to myself as the

1:05:10

pre-conscious competitor. I love chess, it was

1:05:12

free-flowing, I love the battle, I love

1:05:14

the competition, I love the ass kicking

1:05:16

and the kicking battle of the thing.

1:05:18

And then... And then I fell in

1:05:21

love for the first time when I

1:05:23

was 15. The movie came out after

1:05:25

that. And I started studying existentialist literature.

1:05:27

I started reflecting on the absurdity of

1:05:29

it all. I started to become present

1:05:31

to the fact that these were just

1:05:33

64 squares. And 32 pieces, like I

1:05:36

was spending my life studying this fucking

1:05:38

box, wooden box, like the construct, the

1:05:40

absurdity of being stuck in that construct,

1:05:42

became clear to me. And then I

1:05:44

was... becoming more and more self-conscious about

1:05:46

how what I was doing was perceived

1:05:49

by others and I got lost in

1:05:51

all of that. And in many ways,

1:05:53

like the journey, like most people, like

1:05:55

some people don't run into that for

1:05:57

a long time. Like there are some

1:05:59

chess players that just become insanely strong

1:06:02

without ever reflecting on the absurdity of

1:06:04

the fact that they're just playing chess.

1:06:06

And that's a great liberation, like that

1:06:08

the moment you become aware of the

1:06:10

fact... that you're mortal, that you can

1:06:12

get your ass kick, that your arm

1:06:14

can break, that you can die, that

1:06:17

what you're doing is absurd, like you

1:06:19

get locked up by that knowledge. And

1:06:21

there's so many different forms that can

1:06:23

take, or the moment you, like for

1:06:25

example, Boston Celtics, like they, like you're

1:06:27

hungering to win a world championship and

1:06:30

then you win the NBA finals. Suddenly

1:06:32

everything changes, your relationship, your motivation changes,

1:06:34

all the reasons you're doing it. are

1:06:36

no longer valid in some ways because

1:06:38

now you've accomplished the thing you always

1:06:40

dreamed of and you have to discover.

1:06:42

It's true in any form of competition

1:06:45

or art in my experience is that

1:06:47

there comes a moment where someone's consciousness

1:06:49

becomes more complicated and they can't just

1:06:51

return to the innocence they had before

1:06:53

because you can't do that. You can't

1:06:55

put it back in the box. It's

1:06:58

out. So then you have to work

1:07:00

through that journey which is a lot

1:07:02

of what I did from my late

1:07:04

teenage years, in a way that was

1:07:06

integrating that self-awareness, integrating that sense of

1:07:08

mortality. It's like when I, a very

1:07:10

powerful example of this was I, I

1:07:13

drowned in a pool, I guess like

1:07:15

nine, ten years ago, I was doing

1:07:17

hypoxic breath work, whim-hoff training in a

1:07:19

pool. And never do whim-hoff training, everybody,

1:07:21

please, in a pool. you're flushing the

1:07:23

CO2 from your body, but CO2 is

1:07:26

what gives you the urge to breathe.

1:07:28

And so without carbon dioxide and you're

1:07:30

being in your, you don't feel the

1:07:32

urge to breathe. And so, and I've

1:07:34

been a lifetime free-diverse, beer-fishing, from when

1:07:36

I was five, six years old, but

1:07:38

I was never doing hypoxic breath work

1:07:41

before free-fishing from when I was five,

1:07:43

six years old, but I was never

1:07:45

doing hypoxicic breath work before when you

1:07:47

need to breathe to breathe, and then

1:07:49

doing this. this hypoxic worth breathwork in

1:07:51

between and then I my last recollection

1:07:54

is being stretched out in bliss that

1:07:56

those tingles through your body you get

1:07:58

from have you done whim-off training mhm

1:08:00

yeah those you know those tingles I

1:08:02

had those fucking tingles and then I

1:08:04

woke up 30 minutes later, what happened

1:08:06

was that I blacked out. I was

1:08:09

in the bottom of the pool for

1:08:11

over four minutes after blacking out from

1:08:13

shallow water blackout. Oh my God. It

1:08:15

should be 45 seconds to a minute

1:08:17

and it should be 45 seconds to

1:08:19

a minute and you should be brain

1:08:22

dead or dead because you're post shallow

1:08:24

water blackout. I know that time it

1:08:26

was because there's an old man at

1:08:28

the pool who saw me in the

1:08:30

bottom of the pool and swam. He

1:08:32

thought I was holding my breath, but

1:08:34

I was only holding my breath while

1:08:37

swimming. So if I was still, I

1:08:39

was fucking out. His fourth lap, after

1:08:41

his fourth lap, he pulled me up.

1:08:43

I was blue. My whole body was

1:08:45

blue. My head was red. My body

1:08:47

saved me. My body saved me. My

1:08:50

training saved me and killed me. Sent

1:08:52

all the blood to my brain. My

1:08:54

eyes were blown out, red, like bloodshot

1:08:56

for three weeks that followed. And I

1:08:58

remember waking up. What's the drama? I

1:09:00

was the fucking drama. Wow. And I

1:09:02

spent that night in the hospital going

1:09:05

through old chest variations trying to test

1:09:07

my brain. Is my brain ruined? Do

1:09:09

I remember things? Somehow my brain, maybe

1:09:11

it's fucked up, but it seems like

1:09:13

it'd be working pretty well. And I

1:09:15

can't, and that was also a big

1:09:18

part of me realizing I had to

1:09:20

spend my life in the ocean. Because

1:09:22

I could feel the potential for some

1:09:24

PTSD response. Like I could actually feel

1:09:26

the potential trauma response like a cloud

1:09:28

that was washing over me. Like I

1:09:30

could see the cloud coming and I

1:09:33

just fucking decided not to let it

1:09:35

in. And I got back in the

1:09:37

water the next day. And I just

1:09:39

fucking, and I think that's a big

1:09:41

part of my relationship with the ocean

1:09:43

is having died in water. I need

1:09:46

to spend my life in the water.

1:09:48

Did you have any sort of out-of-body

1:09:50

experience or anything where you're gone? What's

1:09:52

really fucked up about it is no.

1:09:54

That's what's really wild. It went just

1:09:56

black. That's what's crazy is that I

1:09:58

went my last memory is of just

1:10:01

tingles and bliss and then

1:10:03

waking up. And so if I

1:10:05

hadn't been pulled out, there would

1:10:07

have been no flash, no seeing

1:10:09

my life passed before my eyes,

1:10:12

no tunnel on the other side,

1:10:14

nothing. You know what's really

1:10:16

fucking wild though, is that

1:10:18

many years later, I was

1:10:20

doing this, this guy Brandon

1:10:23

Powell, is a brilliant guy

1:10:25

who's... a train, a top whim-off

1:10:27

trainer and a trainer of trainers

1:10:30

of his guys. And I was

1:10:32

doing some retreats with teams of

1:10:34

mine and we're doing some whim-off

1:10:36

work and he had this

1:10:38

methodology of kind of accelerated hypoxic

1:10:41

work where that he said, I'm

1:10:43

not sure if it's true, but

1:10:45

he said release DMT in your

1:10:47

body and I did these journeys

1:10:49

with him twice through pure breath

1:10:51

work, no psychedelics. And

1:10:53

I experienced... These two

1:10:55

times months apart I experienced

1:10:58

one time I experienced the center

1:11:00

of my consciousness as where

1:11:02

I as my busted disc and

1:11:04

I experienced the world through like

1:11:06

the electrical connections emerging from my

1:11:08

from my L-4005 it's very strange

1:11:10

and the other one was the

1:11:12

only memory I have of that

1:11:14

and I'm not sure if this

1:11:16

is accurate or some kind of

1:11:18

illusion but I saw the drowning

1:11:20

experience from above the whole thing I

1:11:22

watched the 20 minutes that I was on

1:11:24

the, that I was on the bottom of the

1:11:26

pool and then up in 25 minutes and

1:11:29

then on the pool deck and I saw

1:11:31

the whole thing from above. But that was

1:11:33

like years after it happened. So I

1:11:35

can't explain that. Were all the people

1:11:38

there, the same people? I don't know.

1:11:40

My memory of it consciously from what

1:11:42

actually happened is so fuzzy, right? Because

1:11:44

I just died and came back, but,

1:11:46

and then I saw, I saw it

1:11:48

from above. I think I was mostly

1:11:51

focused on the memory of the memory

1:11:53

of myself. Yeah, so I relate

1:11:55

to myself now like I've I've

1:11:57

died and I'm living and I have

1:11:59

I live with a sense of

1:12:01

gratitude and commitment. That's a big

1:12:04

part of why we moved to

1:12:06

the jungle with my family. I

1:12:08

emerged from that with a commitment

1:12:10

to living life as beautifully and

1:12:12

deeply and truly as I possibly

1:12:14

could and to not let anything

1:12:16

slip. Just all in. Isn't that

1:12:18

fascinating that sometimes it takes, again,

1:12:21

it's the same thing as like

1:12:23

loss propels you to a next

1:12:25

level? Even. The moment

1:12:27

in life where you realize it all could

1:12:29

just go away Like that so fucking

1:12:31

fast instantly no warning. No

1:12:33

warning I've done so many

1:12:35

stupid fucking things like in

1:12:37

these extreme sports. I've done you

1:12:40

know like so many times I almost

1:12:42

died free diving or But that one

1:12:44

was different man. Yeah, there was like

1:12:46

I didn't it was just a it

1:12:49

was just a technical blind spot. I

1:12:51

just didn't know this thing about carbon-axis

1:12:53

I didn't know I was taking a

1:12:55

risk in that moment. I thought I

1:12:58

was just taking a swim. Did you

1:13:00

learn from other people who do

1:13:02

whim-off breathing when they swim? After? Or

1:13:04

before? Or before? No, before. Oh yeah,

1:13:07

no. Who taught you to do this?

1:13:09

Nobody. I did want to whim-off breathing

1:13:11

on land and I was like, you

1:13:13

know, I'll do it, I'll do it,

1:13:16

I'll do it on the swim right

1:13:18

now. Sounds like a great idea. Maybe

1:13:21

seals because they're very good at

1:13:23

inhibiting the urge to breathe, but

1:13:25

you can get too good at it

1:13:28

Or you can just not feel it at

1:13:30

all The ocean is such a

1:13:32

fascinating thing. It's so alive It's a

1:13:34

it's just a strange thing when you

1:13:36

get in the ocean if you haven't

1:13:38

been for a while you climb

1:13:40

in and you feel it moving

1:13:42

around you and pulling and and

1:13:45

and the water just feels different

1:13:47

it feels like it's a living

1:13:49

thing like you're in a dunk

1:13:51

your head under and you look

1:13:53

at this world that's three quarters

1:13:55

of the surface of the earth and

1:13:57

it's so it's so vibrant and you

1:13:59

see people that are surfers that just

1:14:01

get drawn into its spell and it

1:14:04

just becomes a part of their life

1:14:06

is to ride that energy and to

1:14:08

feel it and and the addiction that

1:14:10

they get from it guys like Laird

1:14:12

now guys like you I know so

1:14:15

many people that they like jocco he

1:14:17

won't leave San Diego he doesn't even

1:14:19

want to be in California yes but

1:14:21

San Diego is the ocean for him

1:14:23

he has to be by the ocean

1:14:26

yeah Yeah, and you can't dominate the

1:14:28

ocean. You have to receive her. Yeah.

1:14:30

You just, and if you have any

1:14:32

brittleness in your ego, she will kick

1:14:34

your ass until you just blend. I

1:14:37

know you're a favor, you're in favor

1:14:39

of optimizing training and finding ways to

1:14:41

learn things quicker. Would wave surf pools,

1:14:43

like way more reps, right? If you're

1:14:45

surfing for sure, wave pools of revolutionized

1:14:48

surf training, because for foiling you have

1:14:50

the ocean. And foiling is much more

1:14:52

abundant. Like the surf community is quite

1:14:54

scarce in some ways because you have

1:14:56

to, you can only surf in specific

1:14:59

kinds of waves. And like if you're

1:15:01

trying to make one turn, you might

1:15:03

not see that section again for two

1:15:05

years. You can't replicate conditions in the

1:15:07

ocean. Foiling you can, because you can

1:15:10

pump a foil, you can drive it

1:15:12

down, let it flow back up, and

1:15:14

drive it down, or you can whip

1:15:16

yourself behind a jet ski into a

1:15:18

certain kind of wave. So if I

1:15:21

want to work on like a certain

1:15:23

turn, I can get 40, 50 reps

1:15:25

in a given day while surfing pre-wave

1:15:27

pool, you couldn't at all. So most

1:15:29

great surfers, I would. are brilliant low

1:15:32

rep learners. Because by necessity in the

1:15:34

ocean, you don't get tons of reps.

1:15:36

So in my observation, the greatest competitive

1:15:38

surfers in the world are excellent at

1:15:40

learning from one or two reps. Like

1:15:43

Marcel Garcia is on the mats. I'm

1:15:45

not naturally a great low rep learner.

1:15:47

I'm a higher rep learner. Foiling is,

1:15:49

one could say it's more technically complex

1:15:51

than. surfing because it's everything that surfing

1:15:54

is but also you have a foil

1:15:56

which has lift dynamics in a tail

1:15:58

and you can change the foil shape

1:16:00

the If you change the angle of

1:16:02

attack on your tail by a quarter

1:16:05

degree it changes the whole feel of

1:16:07

everything it's super technical And so many

1:16:09

ways one could argue that it's harder

1:16:11

I wouldn't say not that it's hard

1:16:13

these any of these arts are infinitely

1:16:16

deep as you can refine anything for

1:16:18

forever, but it's more technical shit to

1:16:20

deal with but It's more trainable because

1:16:22

you can replicate conditions. Like you now

1:16:24

can in wavepools. Wavepools for surfers now,

1:16:27

you can hit the same section 30,

1:16:29

40 times. So I do think it's

1:16:31

an incredible. But the interesting thing is

1:16:33

that most surfers of this generation aren't,

1:16:35

they don't train in the same way

1:16:38

that chess players do or judice fighters

1:16:40

do because it's a low rap art

1:16:42

that you can't replicate conditions. And so

1:16:44

surfers aren't, most surfers aren't constructed psychologically

1:16:46

psychologically. in a way that they will

1:16:49

take advantage of wavepools the way a

1:16:51

jjitsu guy would. That's interesting. Like drilling,

1:16:53

like you drill. That's interesting, because they're

1:16:55

accustomed to just taking what the ocean

1:16:57

gives you. You can't just take a

1:17:00

lower up learner and tell them to

1:17:02

live like a high rep learner. It's

1:17:04

a different fucking thing. Right. Right. And

1:17:06

it's very interesting to me that, um,

1:17:09

so surfers crossing over to foiling is

1:17:11

very interesting because they, a lot of

1:17:13

surfers, some surfers do it and they

1:17:15

just, they're all in and they want

1:17:17

to take it on. A lot of

1:17:20

the best surfers in the world are

1:17:22

crossing over. But it's a different lifestyle.

1:17:24

The ones who cross over the ones

1:17:26

who can embrace the high rep training

1:17:28

life. Hmm. The one who can adapt.

1:17:31

Yeah. That's the low rep training thing

1:17:33

with surfing. I'd never really consider, but

1:17:35

that doesn't make sense You have to

1:17:37

be able to optimize you have to

1:17:39

be able to take advantage of each

1:17:42

one of those things and pick it

1:17:44

up pretty quickly You have to especially

1:17:46

in the early think about like learning

1:17:48

as a kid and then like Everything

1:17:50

you're exposed to that the oceans always

1:17:53

moving or was changing, but if you

1:17:55

can like learn from one rep and

1:17:57

burn it in then that just Well,

1:18:00

in Jiu-Jitsu, for example, you can say,

1:18:02

I'm going to drill this arm bar

1:18:04

40 times today, 40 times like this

1:18:07

afternoon, hundreds of times, thousands of times

1:18:09

over the next two weeks, right? So

1:18:11

you can get as many reps as

1:18:14

you need. It's not true in the

1:18:16

ocean. Right. Yeah, it totally makes sense.

1:18:18

Why do you think that children learn

1:18:21

quicker than adults? Yeah, beautiful question. I

1:18:23

think a lot about... on learning because

1:18:25

so much of what high level learning

1:18:27

is is being unblocked which is getting

1:18:30

rid of the blocks the egoic blocks

1:18:32

the false constructs we have the fucking

1:18:34

bullshit we put on everything we do

1:18:37

trying to control the situation we should

1:18:39

just embrace the lack of control. Children

1:18:41

don't have to unlearn that. They haven't

1:18:44

learned it in the first place. So

1:18:46

they're unblocked. My little boy Charlie learning

1:18:48

how to surf was so beautiful to

1:18:50

watch. He just, like, he grew up

1:18:53

in the ocean. He grew up in

1:18:55

the jungle and ocean and he just

1:18:57

from a young age was swimming and

1:19:00

tumbling and we made a game of

1:19:02

tumbling. And then when he first got

1:19:04

on a surfboard, it was like, like,

1:19:07

we didn't, we didn't make a technical.

1:19:09

We didn't make a technical. It wasn't

1:19:11

like he should, telling him what to

1:19:13

do. It was like he could be

1:19:16

right foot forward or left foot forward.

1:19:18

It wasn't, we didn't impose things on

1:19:20

him. He just like danced on the

1:19:23

board and would find his way. And

1:19:25

he started doing things that were very

1:19:27

technical, that he would just create. It

1:19:29

was pure playfulness. Well, if you watch

1:19:32

people come to a surf, like a

1:19:34

surf break who are like New Yorkers

1:19:36

who travel down for five days and

1:19:39

they've got all this. booties and knee

1:19:41

guards and like everything is covered white

1:19:43

faces everything is just like not a

1:19:46

part of their body is designed to

1:19:48

touch the ocean they're trying to keep

1:19:50

the ocean away and they're like they

1:19:52

want to be super controlling about everything

1:19:55

they learn they're like everything is so

1:19:57

regimented in their minds but they're trying

1:19:59

to control their relationship with the ocean

1:20:02

but the way to learn on the

1:20:04

ocean is to not control it to

1:20:06

embrace it to observe to it to

1:20:09

observe it to feel it to like

1:20:11

let it envelop it enveloped you right

1:20:13

They'll just like the moment a kid

1:20:15

becomes afraid of looking bad like you

1:20:18

see that washover kids when they're like

1:20:20

9 10 11 12 different ages and

1:20:22

they become oh they don't want to

1:20:25

fall They don't want to look bad

1:20:27

and then then that's when they get

1:20:29

locked up Yeah, the freedom of I

1:20:32

mean to me a lot of what

1:20:34

like the beacon is is as adults

1:20:36

is being the post conscious discovering the

1:20:38

post conscious freedom as a learner Like

1:20:41

how can we learn without the ego

1:20:43

blocks, right? Without having to look good.

1:20:45

So if you're crossing over, like if

1:20:48

you're a world-class striker and you're getting

1:20:50

on the jitsu match and you're getting

1:20:52

your ass kicked. Or if you're a

1:20:55

great jitsu fighter and you get onto

1:20:57

an MMA gym and suddenly the guys

1:20:59

can just beat the shit out of

1:21:01

you. And suddenly the guys can just

1:21:04

beat the shit out of you. Like

1:21:06

having, or a great surferts, switching, moving

1:21:08

into the martial arts. So you're a

1:21:11

fucking, or if you're like training in

1:21:13

some esoteric, or if you're like training

1:21:15

in some esoteric, you're like, you're like,

1:21:18

you're like, you're like, like, you're like,

1:21:20

you're like, you're like, you're like, you're

1:21:22

like, you're like, you're like, you're like,

1:21:24

you're like, you're like, you're like, you're

1:21:27

like, you're like, you're like, you're like,

1:21:29

you're like, you're like, Right and like

1:21:31

having the freedom to learn without egoic

1:21:34

blocks is and I actually think that

1:21:36

culturally This is one of the most

1:21:38

important things that we need to cultivate

1:21:41

because we're living in a world now

1:21:43

where the pace of technological disruption is

1:21:45

accelerating so fast I know you've done

1:21:47

a bunch of explorations on this with

1:21:50

with um With just in Harris and

1:21:52

others in terms of what AI is

1:21:54

bringing into society and it's a big

1:21:57

focus of mine for many many many

1:21:59

years and it's an area where I'm

1:22:01

working. I think that we are going

1:22:04

to be living in a world where

1:22:06

AI is better at everything than we

1:22:08

are, right? So if you think about

1:22:10

it in the context of chess, I

1:22:13

grew up in the world of where

1:22:15

chess was crossing over into the computer

1:22:17

realm. So computers are first, like I

1:22:20

began playing chess in the pre-computer era,

1:22:22

computer chess era. Then computers entered, and

1:22:24

I initially was very resistant romantic to

1:22:27

it. And I remember at 19, I

1:22:29

started developing chess master, this computer chess

1:22:31

program, and I developed this... of mine

1:22:33

for the next 10 years that followed

1:22:36

teaching the human side of chess through

1:22:38

computers. But when they first approached me,

1:22:40

I didn't want to do it because

1:22:43

I felt like it was going to

1:22:45

disrupt. It was going to kill the

1:22:47

beauty of human chess, the art of

1:22:50

chess, which is so much about imperfection.

1:22:52

But like chess players when I grew

1:22:54

up had to sit in the unknowing,

1:22:56

in tolerance, they had to have a

1:22:59

tolerance of cognitive distance. You might, and

1:23:01

I might study a chess position and

1:23:03

go three months without knowing what the

1:23:06

solution is. Right. constructed so that we

1:23:08

could sit in cognitive and emotional distance

1:23:10

for long, long periods of time, days,

1:23:13

weeks, months, sometimes years. Now chess players

1:23:15

can click on a button and they've

1:23:17

got a supercomputer right by their side.

1:23:19

We'll tell them the answer instantly. It's

1:23:22

interesting to think about how different that

1:23:24

is psychologically and the different kinds of

1:23:26

people that draws in. But what happened

1:23:29

then is that you had Deep Blue

1:23:31

entered the game like supercomputers and then

1:23:33

you had the movement of AI entering

1:23:36

into chess. And we had Alpha Go

1:23:38

and then Alpha Go and then Alpha

1:23:40

Zero. which came out of Deep Mind.

1:23:42

So Demis Hasipis was the developer of

1:23:45

Deep Mind. He was a childhood chess

1:23:47

friend of mine. So Demis and I

1:23:49

from age 11 on were good friends

1:23:52

and we had dialogue about the birth

1:23:54

of Deep Mind, which was this AI

1:23:56

company he began. And then he developed

1:23:58

AlphaGo and Alpha Zero. And to give

1:24:01

a feel for what Alpha Zero did

1:24:03

in chess. Alpha Zero was able to,

1:24:05

without being taught anything about humans, playing

1:24:08

chess. No education of like the history

1:24:10

of the history. So imagine your life's

1:24:12

work, like, you know, I was a

1:24:15

pretty good chess player, right? Like someone

1:24:17

like Magnus Carlson is a much, much

1:24:19

stronger chess, he's the world champion, Gary

1:24:21

Kasparov, Anna's really karpov, Bobby Fisher, like,

1:24:24

think about people who are world champions.

1:24:26

Alpha Zero within three hours of experimentation,

1:24:28

without being taught anything, was stronger than

1:24:31

them. Right? So like we really need

1:24:33

to, said the strongest AI engine in

1:24:35

the world today, is rated 37. So

1:24:38

to give a sense for what that

1:24:40

means, when I was nine years old,

1:24:42

my rating was like 1900 or so.

1:24:44

Right. Magnes Carlson, like the strongest, you

1:24:47

know, the strongest human players in the

1:24:49

world now are rated somewhere about 28,

1:24:51

20, 50-50-ish-y-low. The strongest AI is 3,700-e-low.

1:24:54

So just like the absurdity of the

1:24:56

fact, the gap between like a strong

1:24:58

nine-year-old and the human world champion is

1:25:01

the same elo wrap, gap as between

1:25:03

the world champion and the strongest AI.

1:25:05

Wow. It gets so hard for us

1:25:07

to really wrap our heads around what

1:25:10

that means that... everything, like chess players

1:25:12

had a front row seat to that

1:25:14

happening early. When I listened to some

1:25:17

of your dialogues with these guys, and

1:25:19

I could feel you and them trying

1:25:21

to grab a look, how to communicate

1:25:24

what it means to have these these

1:25:26

insanely powerful intelligences in the world. And

1:25:28

I think like... If you can imagine

1:25:30

like an art like chess having millennia

1:25:33

of development, people studying it like you

1:25:35

train Jiu-Jitsu, right? So imagine people's training

1:25:37

10 hours a day for 30, 40

1:25:40

years being the greatest human in the

1:25:42

world at it. And then something can

1:25:44

come in and within three hours of

1:25:47

experimentation, be much stronger than them. And

1:25:49

imagine that's going to be in fucking

1:25:51

everything, right? So like we have to

1:25:53

be like children, in how we learn.

1:25:56

We're going to have to like release

1:25:58

the egoic relationship that we have to

1:26:00

that we have to our level to

1:26:03

our knowledge, to everything. You know the

1:26:05

great, you know Thomas Coons, structure of

1:26:07

scientific revolutions? Yes. Right, so like you

1:26:10

think about what happens, what the human

1:26:12

has to do to the internal resistance

1:26:14

we have to overcome to embrace the

1:26:16

new paradigm. So let's say you're a

1:26:19

Newtonian physicist, right? You've been studying physics

1:26:21

your whole life, you've got tenure, you've

1:26:23

got 40, 50 years of knowledge built

1:26:26

up, everyone reverears you, and now there's

1:26:28

this new thing, is to admit to

1:26:30

oneself and everybody else that your life's

1:26:33

work is kind of, you have to

1:26:35

release it, it's wrong, it's old, right?

1:26:37

This new paradigm is, but we resist

1:26:39

it. Ego and societyally, right? Because we

1:26:42

will fight tooth and nail to maintain

1:26:44

our conceptual schemes. That's one of our

1:26:46

strongest drivers of all humans, right? And

1:26:49

so I think we're moving into a

1:26:51

world now where you're going to have

1:26:53

37, 3,800 elo rated everything. Kicking our

1:26:56

ass at everything. So we have to

1:26:58

become like children to go back to

1:27:00

your question, in my opinion, and how

1:27:02

we relate to learning. Right, we can't,

1:27:05

a decision making, right? Like when, you

1:27:07

know, we think about, like social media,

1:27:09

imagine a 3,800 elo-rated networked, imagine a

1:27:12

million networked, 3,800 elo-rated super intelligences, utilizing

1:27:14

everything that they can gather about you

1:27:16

on social media to manipulate you to

1:27:19

do whatever it wants or whoever is

1:27:21

controlling it wants. It can have you

1:27:23

do anything. Right. But we have to

1:27:25

like, it's so hard for us to

1:27:28

admit that we are the ant relative

1:27:30

to the human, right? Like we are

1:27:32

the ant. We have to have that

1:27:35

humility. And one of the things that,

1:27:37

um, I think that that's the most

1:27:39

important question today as that we face

1:27:42

as a species is like, what do

1:27:44

we do? Well, we won't know until

1:27:46

it happens and we will become a

1:27:48

different thing. We will have to admit

1:27:51

that we are no longer the apex

1:27:53

intelligence on the planet We will have

1:27:55

something that's akin to an artificial life

1:27:58

form That's far superior to us in

1:28:00

reasoning Access to resources logic. It'll be

1:28:02

far more technically proficient. It'll make far

1:28:04

better versions of itself probably pretty quickly

1:28:07

They've already seen AIs duplicating itself It's

1:28:09

not being prompted to do this But

1:28:11

when you say we don't, I mean

1:28:14

I would argue we should operate as

1:28:16

if it's already happening. It's an inability.

1:28:18

It is happening, but it hasn't completely

1:28:21

transformed life yet. It's emerging right now.

1:28:23

It's about to. It's a, yeah, it's

1:28:25

a god. It's a god that's emerging.

1:28:27

And if it's not a god yet,

1:28:30

it'll be a god in 50 years.

1:28:32

It's just, it's going to be attached

1:28:34

to quantum computing. It's going to figure

1:28:37

out ways to implement better strategies for

1:28:39

utilization of energy resources. It'll be much

1:28:41

better at everything than we are. Yeah.

1:28:44

And then the question is, will it

1:28:46

be used to manipulate us? Will it

1:28:48

be used to control populations? Will it

1:28:50

be, Elon says, his estimation says there's

1:28:53

an 80 to 90% chance. It'll have

1:28:55

a radically positive impact on society at

1:28:57

large. That 90% likelihood that it'll radically

1:29:00

improve the quality of everyone's life. But

1:29:02

then there's 20 or 10% that it

1:29:04

will not and that will be imprisoned.

1:29:07

This is like 10% possibility of the

1:29:09

matrix, you know, 90% possibility of a

1:29:11

technologically inspired utopia. My feeling about it

1:29:13

is that, I mean, there are places

1:29:16

where it's going to be incredibly, it's

1:29:18

going to be beautiful, like just how

1:29:20

computer chess raised the level of human

1:29:23

chess game, chess players, right? And now

1:29:25

AI chess has made chess players. much,

1:29:27

much stronger. And part of it is

1:29:30

because great chess players are partially great

1:29:32

because they have had, they're excellent at

1:29:34

knowing where not to look. Great chess

1:29:36

players don't actually look at more, they

1:29:39

look at less, but they look in

1:29:41

the most potent directions. And what's fascinating

1:29:43

is that AI entering the picture has

1:29:46

forced really strong chess players to unlearn

1:29:48

where they've been correct to learn not

1:29:50

to look. So in

1:29:52

other words areas where they were

1:29:54

well trained not to look Because

1:29:56

humans couldn't play those positions AI

1:29:59

can now play those positions And

1:30:01

actually those are the right positions

1:30:03

to play. They're the objectively correct

1:30:05

positions to play. But now human

1:30:07

studying with an AI can be

1:30:09

much better playing those positions. Right?

1:30:11

And so, like for example, I'm

1:30:13

working on this fascinating project called

1:30:15

Lila Science, which is focused on

1:30:17

combining cutting-edge science, the best scientists

1:30:19

in the world, and cutting-edge AI,

1:30:21

to try to have huge breakthroughs

1:30:24

in material science and life sciences.

1:30:26

And now that can only be

1:30:28

done in my opinion with just...

1:30:30

best best best in class safety

1:30:32

practices and in my view that

1:30:34

involves having a higher level AI

1:30:36

running safety than you have running

1:30:38

the actual science when you say

1:30:40

safety like what are you what

1:30:42

are you referring to making sure

1:30:44

that we don't do that doesn't

1:30:47

go wild that you create that

1:30:49

you don't create things that get

1:30:51

out there that could be terribly

1:30:53

destructive I think that that the

1:30:55

part of the AI race that's

1:30:57

happening is that people are driven

1:30:59

by ego and there's a game

1:31:01

theory of a race going on.

1:31:03

And when you have a race,

1:31:05

everyone's just running as fast as

1:31:07

they can, but if they slow

1:31:09

down to think about what's safe,

1:31:12

they might fall behind in the

1:31:14

race. And I believe ethically if

1:31:16

we're in the AI scene at

1:31:18

all, then we must be developing

1:31:20

safety practices that are making it

1:31:22

responsible. That's a very logical perspective.

1:31:24

Unfortunately, we are in a race

1:31:26

and that's where it gets weird,

1:31:28

right? And because we're not just

1:31:30

in a race in America. We're

1:31:32

in a race internationally. And the

1:31:34

consequences of losing the race are

1:31:37

grave. It's akin to the consequences

1:31:39

of losing the Manhattan Project, of

1:31:41

not coming to the bomb, not

1:31:43

being the first to implement a

1:31:45

bomb, which is really crazy to

1:31:47

think. But I think it's that

1:31:49

on steroids. I think it's the

1:31:51

Manhattan Project on steroids, because I

1:31:53

think it has the... If used

1:31:55

in the wrong way, it has

1:31:57

the possibility of completely imprisoning society.

1:31:59

All you have to do is

1:32:02

lockdown resources, food, power, electricity, everything.

1:32:04

And you put society at a

1:32:06

complete halt. If you can figure

1:32:08

out a way to completely disable

1:32:10

grids, and every car has a

1:32:12

computer in it now, most cars

1:32:14

are connected to Wi-Fi. It's most

1:32:16

new ones, at least an option

1:32:18

to connect. There's a way that

1:32:20

someone can connect to your car.

1:32:22

And this is crazy. In phones,

1:32:24

everyone's reliant completely on your phone.

1:32:27

There's AI in your phone now.

1:32:29

Who knows what could happen if

1:32:31

that could hijack. You know, there's

1:32:33

a guy named Robert Epstein who

1:32:35

spent a lot of time analyzing

1:32:37

what the impact of core... curated

1:32:39

searches can do to presidential elections,

1:32:41

to public opinion on things, and

1:32:43

that when you're getting a search

1:32:45

where you're using Google or some

1:32:47

of these search engines, you're getting

1:32:49

curated search results. If you look

1:32:52

for specific political opinions, political positions,

1:32:54

you will get a curated result

1:32:56

that is oftentimes skewed in whatever

1:32:58

ideology, towards whatever ideology the people

1:33:00

that programed it. are aligned with.

1:33:02

So if you Google something about

1:33:04

Donald Trump, you will have as

1:33:06

many negative responses they can possibly

1:33:08

throw to the front of the

1:33:10

line, it will take you page

1:33:12

after page after page to find

1:33:14

what you're looking for, but you'll

1:33:17

be confronted immediately with negative stuff.

1:33:19

Now if you're a person that's

1:33:21

in the middle and maybe a

1:33:23

person that's undecided... in an electoral

1:33:25

process, an electoral race, you can

1:33:27

be swayed in a significant manner

1:33:29

and he estimates it's as high

1:33:31

as 30 to 50 percent of

1:33:33

the people that are on the

1:33:35

fence, that are sort of undecided

1:33:37

voters, can be swayed by search

1:33:40

result engines, which is kind of

1:33:42

crazy. And that's just, you know,

1:33:44

an algorithm. That's just something that

1:33:46

they've devised. This is not like

1:33:48