0:00

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0:02

this episode of the Jordan Harbinger Show. Maybe

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yeah, this actually seems pretty doable. Maybe my place

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0:21

Welcome to Feedback Friday. I'm your host,

0:23

Jordan Harbinger. As always, I'm here with Feedback

0:26

Friday producer, the capers and the

0:28

hollandaise on this eggs benedict of

0:30

life advice, Gabriel Mizrahi.

0:33

Okay. So like salty?

0:35

Is that what you're getting at? Smooth and salty. Salty

0:38

AF, bro. Now you got to live up to that

0:40

nickname today. No dulcet tones Gabe

0:42

today. I need petty agro Gabe

0:44

only, please. I'm bringing the salt. Okay.

0:47

I will do my best. On the Jordan Harbinger

0:49

Show, we decode the stories, secrets, and skills of the

0:51

world's

0:51

most fascinating people and turn their wisdom

0:54

into practical advice that you can use to impact

0:56

your own life and those around you. And

0:58

our mission is to help you become a better informed,

1:00

more critical thinker. During the week, we have long

1:02

form conversations with a variety of

1:04

incredible people like former jihadis, drug

1:06

traffickers, astronauts, four star generals,

1:09

rocket scientists.

1:10

This week, we had a skeptical Sunday episode on

1:13

astrology, debunking astrology. A

1:15

lot of you reacting to that one. Not a big surprise there.

1:17

Really good episode if I do say so myself. We

1:19

also had Rory Stewart, really

1:22

incredible guy. This guy walked across Afghanistan

1:25

and Iran alone, essentially with

1:27

a dog. And, well, he didn't die, which

1:29

I thought would probably happen. And

1:32

we also announced our fundraiser in that for GiveDirectly

1:34

where we are going to help lift an entire

1:37

village in Kenya out of poverty

1:39

with your help. So definitely check out that episode.

1:42

Really sharp dude. I mean, that's an understatement. We

1:44

also had my friend Remy Adelieke. He is in

1:46

Transformers. He's a former Navy SEAL. Really

1:48

incredible story, incredible guy. Lots

1:50

of good stuff this week.

1:52

On Fridays, though, we share stories, take listener

1:54

letters, offer advice, play obnoxious sound

1:56

bites, mercilessly roast Gabe for

1:58

his appearance.

1:59

or seemingly endless selection

2:02

of off-gray spiritual gangster tank

2:04

tops. Mm-hmm. There's not a single

2:06

non-V-neck in that house, is there? Ha ha ha.

2:09

Uh, yeah, that's so true. I do prefer

2:12

a V-neck, but I have a few crew necks, and I can

2:14

wear them if you'd like.

2:15

You know, this reminds me, I took a class called

2:17

blood feuds in law school, and it was about

2:19

Viking blood feuds. Okay. Really

2:22

cool class, just one of the coolest classes,

2:24

of course, that you could take in law school.

2:26

And we learned all about Viking law

2:28

and how they settled disputes back in the day. And

2:31

one of the ways in which you were allowed to

2:33

get a divorce is, I

2:35

might butcher this a little bit, but it's,

2:37

if a man wears a shirt with

2:39

the neck collar so low that

2:41

his nipples are exposed, a woman can

2:43

divorce him. So, there was a time

2:45

in one of these sagas or whatever where

2:48

the wife sews her husband a shirt, and

2:50

it's deliberately super low

2:52

cut so that his nipple is exposed, and then

2:55

she divorces him. And it's like, why would that be a thing?

2:57

And the prevailing theory was, you don't want to date

2:59

a guy or be married to a guy

3:01

who's wearing V-necks that are so deep that

3:03

his nipples are exposed. So, just word to the wise. What

3:06

are you trying to say, that you

3:07

want to break up as co-hosts? No,

3:09

this is completely unrelated, Gabe. Just

3:11

for the record, because I don't know what people are thinking just listening

3:14

to this, but my V-necks don't go that far

3:16

down. No, but you are playing

3:18

with fire. You are playing with fire. Like normal

3:21

V-necks, dude. Normal? If I wore that,

3:23

my belly button would be dangling out

3:25

through the neck hole. Come on. It's the conventional

3:27

V-neck, dude. You're making it sound like I'm one of those

3:29

guys. You remember in the early 2000s, men

3:31

would wear those V-necks that went all the way down to

3:33

their sternum. But they kind of liked their belly

3:36

button and back up. Oh, yeah. This is not

3:38

one of those V-necks. This is a normal

3:40

V-neck. Fair. All

3:41

right, whatever. I don't know if I believe that. I don't like

3:43

the direction we're heading. It's making me very

3:46

uncomfortable. You don't

3:48

like the direction this is going? No,

3:50

that's fair. All right, before we jump in, and

3:52

now that we've gotten that V-neck thing out of the way, we

3:54

have relaunched our newsletter for the show. It's been

3:56

on hiatus, if you could even call it that, for half

3:59

a decade or more.

3:59

It's called We Bit Wiser, and it's

4:02

a bite-sized gem or two from a past episode

4:04

from me to you, delivered to your inbox once a

4:06

week. So if you want to keep up with the wisdom from

4:08

our 800 plus episodes and apply it to your

4:10

life, we dig into the back catalog, reanalyze

4:12

the stuff. It's really interesting so far. A

4:14

lot of good feedback. JordanHarbinger.com

4:17

slash news is where you can sign

4:19

up. Let me know if there's any issues with that because it

4:21

is new. I want to make sure the squeeze works

4:23

and you're getting delivery and it's not in your spam

4:25

folder, all that stuff.

4:27

A few weeks ago in the Bradley Sherman episode

4:29

about demographic collapse, I said

4:31

something about legal versus illegal

4:33

immigration along the lines of

4:35

a lot of white people don't like illegal

4:37

immigration because it's brown people immigrating. Now, while

4:40

that's true for some people who are racist, not

4:42

everybody who doesn't like illegal

4:45

immigration holds that opinion because

4:47

they are racist. Of course, for me and many others,

4:50

legal immigration is about showing respect

4:52

to the system that you want to join.

4:54

I also understand that desperation also

4:56

makes good people do things they otherwise would

4:59

not. So I just didn't want to paint with too

5:01

broad a brush. I did get some emails about that and

5:03

I'm very thankful for people who engage with

5:05

the content like that. It's a lot better to get

5:08

an email from somebody who says, hey,

5:10

I think you misspoke or hey,

5:12

do you really think this way or hey, there's a different

5:14

reason for this versus just having

5:17

somebody explode in a review

5:19

or in my inbox in a completely

5:22

unhinged way. I got those too, of course,

5:25

as I always do, but I appreciate everybody who

5:27

engaged on that and the opportunity

5:29

to one, clarify and two, clarify my

5:31

own thinking. Always a great benefit

5:33

here of the show and the show's fans, which

5:35

is you. So thanks to everybody who wrote in with compliments

5:38

and or actual real constructive criticism

5:40

that wasn't totally unhinged.

5:42

By the way, if you use the Stitcher app

5:44

to listen to this show, they are getting

5:47

rid of that app. August 29th, it will

5:49

no longer be useful. So switch to a different

5:51

app if you use the Stitcher app to

5:54

listen to this podcast. If you're on Android,

5:56

I suggest Podcast Addict. It

5:58

might not be as pretty, but it works. It works really well if you're

6:01

on iOS, Apple. You should use

6:03

Overcast, in my humble opinion, or Apple

6:05

Podcasts, but definitely no longer

6:08

Stitcher. It will not update anymore in

6:10

the next couple of months. So if you're using the Stitcher

6:12

app, now's a good time to switch to a new podcast app.

6:14

And if you have any problems with this, you're kind of boomer

6:17

in terms of your tech, you don't know what to do, you can always

6:19

email me, Jordan, at jordanharbinger.com. I

6:21

will try to point you in the right direction, but

6:23

the Stitcher app will no longer work for this show.

6:25

All right, Gabe, what's the first thing out

6:28

of the mailbag? Hi, Jordan and Gabe.

6:30

About two months ago, my boyfriend and I were going to

6:32

spend a night together at my home. When

6:34

he arrived, he realized he forgot his laptop

6:37

for school and went back home to pick it up. He

6:39

went totally dark for the rest of

6:42

the night

6:42

and never came back. The

6:44

next afternoon, he called me and explained

6:47

what happened. When he got home, he heard

6:49

some weird noises from his mother's room.

6:51

He peeked through the door and saw her sitting on the ground,

6:54

bleeding. He barged in to find

6:56

a shirtless man with a belt towering

6:58

over her. This man was his mother's

7:00

date

7:01

and turned out to be an abuser.

7:04

My boyfriend jumped the man and knocked him unconscious.

7:06

He broke four fingers on one hand and

7:08

the man was put into a coma because of the severe

7:10

head trauma my boyfriend inflicted on

7:13

him. Now, my boyfriend

7:15

has never been a violent person. He never even raised

7:17

his voice to me and I've never seen

7:19

him take any violent action outside of Muay

7:21

Thai,

7:22

which he's been doing for four years. He's

7:24

not a giant, muscular, intimidating

7:26

guy. Overall, he's a pretty chill

7:29

dude. The next few days

7:31

were hell. The abuser's family got involved

7:34

and this whole thing turned into a legal case.

7:36

I went to see him the following weekend and he seemed

7:38

so apathetic. He hadn't gone to university

7:41

or done any sports that week and I felt

7:43

he barely noticed I was there. The

7:46

following week, the abuser died due

7:48

to the traumas. So, man,

7:51

this got very real. So, this otherwise

7:54

nice, normal guy inadvertently killed

7:56

the guy trying to protect

7:58

his mom.

7:59

I feel really bad for this dude. And I know I should feel

8:02

bad for the dead guy, but I don't because

8:04

he was an abuser and I kind

8:06

of feel like this guy had it coming. But you know,

8:09

whatever, I'm sure we'll get to that. All

8:11

right, carry on. Now he barely leaves

8:13

his home, doesn't talk to most of his friends,

8:15

and doesn't feel like the same person. He

8:18

started blocking people who ask too many details

8:20

or call him a murderer. He's calmly

8:22

told me that he understands these people and

8:25

that quote, most people won't feel comfortable

8:27

next to a killer, unquote.

8:29

But he also told me he doesn't regret

8:31

doing it and that that man probably

8:33

deserved worse. Bingo. It's

8:35

been two months now. We don't talk about the event anymore.

8:38

He's gone on academic leave. He's a

8:40

bit more accessible now and has been

8:42

working out a lot at home as his fight academy

8:44

asked him not to come back until everything was

8:47

sorted out. He doesn't want to talk about

8:49

the legal case but said he's not worried about

8:51

it anymore as it was self-defense

8:53

and we have a good lawyer, in his words.

8:55

His friends too say hanging out with him is weird.

8:58

Like they felt he wasn't there. I

9:01

want to help him, but this person I was

9:03

once so close to now feels like a stranger to me,

9:06

to the point where I get a bit scared around him. I

9:09

tried everything to make him better, but I

9:11

feel like I've exhausted my options. And

9:13

at this point, I'm not sure he even really

9:15

appreciates my company anymore.

9:18

What should I do?

9:19

Should I keep being treated like a nobody while

9:21

helping him recover from this? Or should

9:24

I just accept that he's been permanently changed

9:26

by this event?

9:28

Signed, Stuck in a Thriller, with

9:30

this unnatural born killer. Oh

9:33

man, what an insane story.

9:36

Wow, your boyfriend. He's been through

9:38

something truly extraordinary. I

9:40

mean, this is like something from a movie.

9:42

It's one of those insane life defining

9:45

events that just completely changed the

9:47

way you view the world

9:48

and the way that you view yourself. And part

9:50

of me is really sorry that he went

9:52

back home that night to get his laptop. But of course

9:55

the other part of me is so glad that he did so

9:57

he could save his mother from this monster. It

9:59

sounds like Gabe. The guy was whipping mom

10:01

with the belt? It sounds like it. Unclear

10:03

if that was part of the ritual or

10:05

if he was just like a monster, it was just like

10:08

beating her at the house. I don't know,

10:10

I'm a little confused about that actually. Cause his shirt

10:12

was off, which is weird, and then he has the belt. So

10:14

it's like maybe they were hooking up and then he just, but

10:16

then he's like beating her up. I'm so confused by

10:18

that. I thought that letter was going somewhere else. I thought he was

10:21

like, ah, don't wait, unsee this. Either way, it sounds like you crossed

10:23

a line. Yeah, for sure. I mean, I

10:25

doubt he walked in there and was like, I'm gonna kill this guy

10:27

for no reason. Like he probably saw more

10:29

than that and just we're not getting all the details.

10:32

I'm sure the mother's story corroborated that or he'd be

10:34

super worried about going to jail slash already be there.

10:37

So the fallout from that evening is

10:39

obviously huge. And even if he's

10:42

not being prosecuted criminally, which I

10:44

hope he isn't, if it really was self-defense,

10:46

it's unclear from your letter if he is or if the guy's family

10:48

getting involved means it's a civil case. It sounds

10:51

like maybe this isn't even in the United States.

10:53

So I have no legal experience

10:55

here to offer either way.

10:57

But he has to live with this very

10:59

heavy burden of having killed someone,

11:02

even if it was accidental and

11:04

for what sounds like a damn good reason. And

11:07

that is,

11:08

well, I don't know if I have the words for the psychological

11:11

toll of that. I can't even

11:13

imagine how I would be coping

11:15

with something like this. I'd like to think I'd

11:17

be strong and feel secure that I did the

11:19

right thing. But if I'm being honest,

11:21

the whole experience would probably rock me as

11:23

well. Sure, sure. Your boyfriend's

11:26

not a violent guy. Like you said, quite the opposite.

11:28

Although it sounds like the Muay Thai, the kickboxing

11:30

made him really powerful. And taking

11:33

someone's life like this, it might just

11:35

eat away at a normal, gentle

11:37

person. And I'm sorry that

11:39

he's going through that, really. That's what it comes down to in

11:41

that it's affected you and your relationship too.

11:43

It's very sad and your feelings make a lot

11:46

of sense. Unfortunately, I don't

11:48

know how much you can do to change things in

11:50

the short term. I can hear how badly

11:52

you wanna help your boyfriend, how painful

11:55

it is to feel like he's a

11:57

stranger or estranged from you.

11:59

And it speaks. to how much you care for him, how

12:01

badly he probably needs your support. But

12:03

right now, I think you need to listen

12:06

to what your boyfriend is communicating to you and

12:08

accept him for where he is right

12:10

now, even if that is massively

12:12

hurtful and disappointing to you.

12:14

Now, I'm not saying you should leave him or stop talking,

12:16

you know, don't block him on social media or whatever that kind

12:19

of stuff is. We don't know what's

12:21

going through your boyfriend's head. It sounds like

12:24

you don't either,

12:25

and that's also making all of this a little more

12:27

muddy and difficult. And I wish, of course,

12:30

that he could be a little more open with you about what

12:32

he's feeling and what he wants from you right now,

12:34

but he might not be that guy and he might not

12:36

even know. And part of this whole crisis

12:38

might be discovering that he's not that guy, which is

12:41

another interesting layer to all this. Right,

12:43

this might be new information she

12:45

didn't know, and maybe he was always

12:47

kind of guarded or shut down. She just didn't know

12:49

how much that was the case until there was

12:51

this huge experience that he couldn't let her

12:53

in on. But look, for all we know,

12:56

he might appreciate that you're sticking around and

12:58

continuing to try to support him, and he just

13:00

can't express that very well either.

13:03

So what I am saying is your

13:05

task right now is to make peace with the

13:07

fact that your boyfriend is working his way through

13:09

an objective trauma and

13:12

that his method and timeline, it's

13:14

not necessarily going to align with yours,

13:17

and that what he's going through right now says

13:19

a lot more about him than it does

13:21

about you. It's not like you're not doing enough or whatever.

13:24

Right, like he said, even though he thinks the guy

13:26

deserved it, he also thinks of himself as

13:28

a killer. Just imagine what

13:31

that would do to a person, especially somebody who's not

13:33

violent. Yeah, I kind of disagree

13:35

with it. A killer to me is somebody who breaks

13:37

into somebody else's house and kills them, not somebody

13:39

who goes in and finds his mom getting beaten

13:41

by some guy and then kicks the guy and he happens

13:44

to die.

13:44

But that tells you how he's thinking about this

13:47

evening. It does, yeah. The label, of course,

13:49

is going to come with a lot of pain. He is going

13:51

through it right now.

13:53

And also, people's ability to handle

13:55

stuff like this, it often comes with age. I

13:58

vaguely remember.

13:59

I remember reading that younger veterans

14:02

suffer from PTSD at far

14:04

higher rates than older ones. And if I recall

14:06

correctly, it's because they have some pre-existing

14:08

vulnerability. Because I think

14:11

the idea is when they're younger, you generally

14:13

have fewer inner resources

14:15

to cope with difficult life events. Your identity

14:18

really as a human is still kind of being formed.

14:20

Was right now, if I kill someone,

14:22

I'm not like, I'm that person, I have 43

14:25

years of not being that person. And

14:27

if you're 23, you're like, I just became an adult and

14:30

this is this thing that I did, and this is the biggest thing I've done

14:32

as an adult, and oh my God, this is who I am

14:34

as an adult. This is me as a person. So

14:36

maybe that explains some of his

14:38

response. Could be, and I think he's even younger

14:40

than that because she said he's in university. So this

14:43

guy could be 19, he could be 20 years old.

14:45

It's, yeah, it's a defining event. Now,

14:47

I don't know how much you guys have explicitly talked

14:49

about what he needs

14:50

from you right now, where you guys stand. I'm

14:53

getting the sense that you haven't maybe done that because

14:55

you're kind of in the dark here trying to guess how he really

14:57

feels. So it might be a good idea to approach

15:00

this more directly with him. It has been

15:02

two months, you guys are still talking. When

15:05

the moment feels right, I think it's perfectly okay

15:07

to say, listen, you know I love you, my

15:09

heart goes out to you right now. I'm so sorry

15:11

that you're going through this.

15:13

And look, I'm honestly happy to make it all about

15:15

you right now, but I just have to say, all

15:17

of this has left me pretty confused

15:19

about how I can be most helpful to you

15:21

and what you want from me, whether you want me in

15:24

your life. You know, none of this is your fault.

15:26

But I feel like you're a bit of a stranger these

15:29

days. That makes me a little scared sometimes. And

15:31

it would mean a lot to me if you could tell me where you are

15:33

right now and what you want so I can know how to show

15:35

up for you. You know, so do

15:37

you want me close? Do you want me around? Do you want

15:39

a little space? Like, what do you

15:41

feel you need from me right now? Just talk

15:44

to me about this. My hope is that your boyfriend

15:46

can take you up on that invitation to talk rather than

15:48

just shutting down. And then hopefully

15:51

based on what he says, you can take that data and make

15:53

a decision that feels fair to both of you. And if he says,

15:55

hey, honestly, I just think I need some time alone,

15:58

then I would take him out as well.

15:59

word. Even if he actually needs her

16:02

support right now and doesn't realize it, you know, he

16:04

might push her away and be like, damn, that was my only

16:06

place I was getting support. I don't know. It's this is tough.

16:08

This might be a dance between respecting

16:11

his wishes and gently pushing to give

16:13

him what she feels he needs, but can't really ask

16:15

for. But ultimately, yes, if

16:17

he says, look, I cannot be close right now

16:19

and I need some space to work through this in my own

16:21

way, I think she does need to accept that. I

16:23

don't know, Gabe, maybe she just needs to sit him down and burst

16:26

out crying about how she doesn't even know him anymore.

16:28

Just make it all about her. There

16:30

we go. Perfect. I don't see how that could backfire. Yeah.

16:32

Okay. At a certain point, she just needs to

16:35

accept her boyfriend for wherever he

16:37

is. I think so. Yes. Okay.

16:38

And that could be really hard because deep down, she's

16:41

like, you killed a guy. You need someone like me looking

16:43

out for you. I still love you. And he's like, nah,

16:45

I'm just gonna like zone out. Well, it's

16:47

like we talk about a lot. Acceptance often

16:49

feels like failing. It feels

16:52

like giving up and that's painful. And

16:54

in her case, it might mean giving up

16:56

the idea that she can save him or

16:59

that she occupies a certain position in his

17:02

life or that their love is more

17:04

powerful than this terrible thing that

17:06

he just went through or that he's going to come back

17:08

and be the guy

17:08

he was before all of this, which it might

17:11

not be at this moment in time

17:13

anyway possible. So she

17:15

keeps trying and pushing and

17:17

showing up because the pain of trying feels

17:20

easier than the pain of accepting him

17:22

where he is and letting him go.

17:23

Right. So she's confronting the limit of her power

17:26

in an extreme situation. And that's, I

17:28

mean, it's brutal for anybody to go through that and do that,

17:30

to have that level of introspection.

17:32

So do you keep being treated

17:35

like a nobody as you put it, while you help your

17:37

boyfriend recover? I would say if

17:39

you feel like a nobody, that's something

17:41

I would pay attention to. And I know things

17:43

are kind of all about him right now, but there are two of you

17:45

in this relationship. So either

17:47

he acknowledges how his response

17:49

to all of this is affecting you, or

17:52

if he can't really do that right now, or he doesn't

17:54

want to change to accommodate you, then

17:56

you get to decide whether you want to stay in a situation

17:58

that leaves you feeling. like a nobody.

18:01

And the answer to that might very well

18:03

be, no, I do not. It might

18:05

be, and who knows, maybe they're meant to part ways here for

18:08

reasons that are being laid bare by

18:10

this event. Or maybe they find their way back to each

18:12

other in a few months or in a year or whatever

18:14

when he's worked through some of this some more.

18:16

With a therapist, I would hope, I just want to get that

18:18

in there. Or somebody else who's

18:21

gone through this experience and is willing to open

18:23

up about it and share their process, there might

18:25

be a lot of value if he talks to somebody who

18:27

killed somebody by accident in self-defense and

18:29

they're like, hey, it gets better. My life

18:32

isn't ruined because of this. And the

18:34

idea that you're a killer is not true. I mean, hearing

18:36

that from a credible source might

18:38

do something for him. I just, I don't

18:40

think he's gonna ultimately process all of this

18:42

that well without some help,

18:45

especially if he's young. Again, it's his work

18:47

to do. She can't do that for him, but it might be

18:49

something else she can encourage him to do.

18:52

I completely agree. And should

18:54

you just accept that he's been permanently changed by

18:56

this event? Well, you don't know if he's

18:58

been permanently changed. My guess is that this

19:00

tragedy will probably stick with

19:02

him.

19:03

It'll definitely shape who he is, but he

19:05

has a lot of control in the long-term

19:08

over the meaning that he makes out of this event,

19:10

but that takes time.

19:11

So I would encourage you to just accept

19:14

that your boyfriend is different right now.

19:16

You don't know what the future him will look like.

19:19

And that's not really under your control,

19:21

not entirely your business.

19:23

Your business is deciding what kind of relationship

19:25

you're willing to be in with him

19:27

at this very confusing, difficult point in

19:29

time now.

19:30

I agree with that. I think it's just one more thing

19:32

she has to admit she's powerless over, which

19:35

is knowing how he is

19:37

gonna turn out as a result of this. Which is

19:39

so painful and so maddening.

19:43

In the meantime, I hope you and your boyfriend find

19:45

a way to help each other understand how you're both dealing

19:47

with this so you can make a decision together.

19:50

And we're sending you a big hug, wishing your boyfriend

19:52

the best with this legal case. And of course, that's

19:54

the last thing he needs to deal with right now, is wondering if he's

19:56

gonna go to jail.

19:57

Personally, the dude saved his mom. took

20:00

out an abuser, and while I'm all

20:02

like, let's have empathy for everybody, if somebody's beating

20:04

your mom up with a belt, like, put him underground.

20:07

Look, I've gotta believe in a world where he doesn't get punished

20:10

for doing that.

20:11

But what a world this is, where something like that can

20:13

happen to a kind and normal

20:15

person. But thankfully he was there. Who knows

20:17

what would have happened to his mother? And

20:19

then does he blame himself for not going back

20:22

to get his laptop, because if I had been home,

20:24

she wouldn't have, you know, this could have been so

20:27

much worse than an abuser

20:29

getting taken out of the ecosystem.

20:32

I'm trying to put this politely without being gross. But

20:35

folks, God forbid you ever have to act in self-defense,

20:38

but if you do, then yes,

20:40

they hit you first, and you never hit them after

20:43

they went onto the ground. Not legal advice,

20:45

I'm a lawyer, but not your lawyer, but I

20:47

just happen to notice that people who get

20:50

hit first and don't hit somebody after they are

20:52

on the ground tend to fare better in court, so

20:55

there's that.

20:56

You know who won't try to mask his

20:58

crass capitalistic impulses after a story

21:00

like that? Alright, yeah, we'll be right back.

21:04

This episode is sponsored in part by Grammarly.

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23:42

Friday.

23:46

Okay, what's next? Dear

23:48

Jordan and Gabe, a while back I started

23:50

dating somebody who wanted a kid. I don't

23:52

want kids, so we were just enjoying each

23:54

other's company. She planned to pay for a

23:56

sperm donor in the near future, at which

23:58

point our relationship would end.

24:00

and we would move forward as friends. She

24:03

also told me that if she ever got

24:05

pregnant, she would keep the child, but

24:08

wouldn't require anything from me.

24:10

Because of the bad relationship she had with her

24:12

father, she believes that if a woman

24:14

can have an abortion, a man should be able

24:16

to opt out and not be forced to be a father.

24:19

Still, I was excited to play an uncle

24:21

role to her child someday. Unfortunately,

24:24

birth control failed, and now

24:27

she's pregnant. I'm positive

24:29

that it wasn't intentional. She maintains the

24:31

opinion that I have a choice about being involved.

24:33

She wants me to be there and figure it out later,

24:35

but I can't shake the feeling that

24:38

it'll ruin the child someday. But

24:40

then my heart breaks when I think about not

24:42

seeing her anymore.

24:44

My girlfriend proposed one other arrangement, which

24:46

is if my parents respected our decision, they

24:49

could have a relationship with the child. But

24:51

then I worry that the child will wonder where

24:54

the father is. My mom is not

24:56

happy with the decision and says I

24:58

need to be there to take responsibility for the child

25:01

despite my girlfriend's wishes.

25:03

Do I maintain an uncle relationship with this kid

25:06

knowing the child will inevitably realize who

25:08

I am and potentially feel abandoned

25:10

and wonder why we never told them? Or

25:13

do I cut ties when the child is born and

25:15

let my girlfriend tell the story that she used a sperm

25:17

donor? And is it possible

25:19

to have legal documents created that would

25:21

allow us to treat this as a sperm donation?

25:25

Signed, looking for an exception

25:27

after this ill-fated conception.

25:29

Oh boy, yeah, this is messy.

25:32

I don't know if there's an easy answer to this question, frankly.

25:34

This is one of those situations that are just kind of inherently

25:37

problematic and there's no way

25:39

around it. I mean, either

25:42

you stick around and remain a father to

25:44

a child that you don't, or I should say

25:46

didn't want,

25:47

or you abandon a child that you helped

25:49

create,

25:50

or you play uncle to this kid and create

25:52

a huge secret, which is, I'm stressed out just

25:54

even thinking about that. You're gonna pay a

25:56

price in any of these

25:59

scenarios. And the question is, which

26:01

things are you willing to give up?

26:04

In what ways are you willing to

26:06

pay the price?

26:07

The reality is, the best

26:10

answer here for everyone except

26:12

you is to come around to the

26:14

idea of being a father. And I'm putting a

26:16

little asterisk next to that because I got something to say about that

26:18

later. But I know this is not what you

26:20

wanted. I respect that. Here's where the

26:22

asterisk comes in. I'm going to take my one shot

26:25

and say that becoming a father is the absolute

26:27

best thing that has ever happened to me. In my entire life,

26:29

bar none. When

26:32

I think about how much I love my kids, my heart

26:34

opens up, it melts. I'm a totally

26:37

different person in all ways that I think are good. Although

26:40

the vulnerability is a little scary. I'll give you that. So

26:42

while you seem to have made your decision,

26:44

I

26:45

implore you to just

26:48

think about it some more. Don't convince yourself

26:50

if you don't want to, right? But if you can stand the

26:53

thought,

26:53

just maybe see if you would reconsider.

26:57

I'm going to get off my soap box and straight onto

26:59

another soap box. Gabe, I got to say,

27:01

I am very frustrated

27:03

with her for saying she

27:05

would keep a child if she ever got pregnant with him,

27:08

which is exactly what happened knowing

27:10

that he didn't want children. I know he says it's unintentional,

27:13

but I'm also like, you know, hand on

27:15

chin emoji over here

27:17

with that one. Well, especially because

27:19

she had a bad relationship with her father, right? I

27:22

mean, she's taking the stance that she believes is

27:24

kind of evolved, which is,

27:26

well, if a woman can terminate a pregnancy, a man should

27:28

be able to leave. Fair is fair. But then it's like,

27:31

isn't having a child with a guy who explicitly

27:33

said he doesn't want children also setting up

27:35

that kid to have a complicated relationship

27:38

with their father? So she's helping

27:40

create a situation that is, I don't

27:42

know, similarly, if not equally problematic

27:45

just because she really wanted to have

27:47

a baby. Yeah, you're right. Or

27:49

because she doesn't believe in abortion, which,

27:51

you know, totally her choice. Well, her

27:54

and his choice theoretically, or

27:56

at least mostly her choice, whatever. I don't want to go down that road. But

27:59

I'm a little worked up.

27:59

mostly on the baby's behalf. Because

28:02

the baby has zero say in any

28:04

of this, and now that kid's gonna have

28:07

to inherit a conflicted father, well,

28:09

maybe, and a potentially kind of weird

28:11

story.

28:12

So I think you need to decide

28:14

one way or the other if you're gonna be involved in this child's

28:17

life. And I'm not sure that pretending you're an

28:19

uncle is the way to go.

28:21

Either you guys need to separate and you

28:23

need to not be involved at all and make

28:25

a clean break, keep things neat, let

28:28

your girlfriend pretend it was a sperm donor,

28:30

which of course would deprive your child

28:32

of a father and probably eat away

28:34

at you for the rest of your life. And I'm not

28:36

trying to guilt trip you into doing what I suggested, I'm

28:38

just saying what I think might happen.

28:41

Or you need to stay involved

28:43

in your child's life

28:44

and maybe you're not married or parenting

28:46

full-time, you're co-parenting in some way, but

28:48

you're around. The child knows who their

28:51

father is. And yes, it's unconventional,

28:53

but you're present, the kid doesn't feel unwanted.

28:56

Man, I just think that's the correct thing to

28:58

do. And it sucks because it's not what you wanted,

29:01

but we gotta think about the kid here and

29:03

not the fact that Jordan would

29:05

love to go to Spain. Because I'm with you, man, trust

29:07

me. I'm ashamed to admit this, but

29:10

I shouldn't be.

29:11

There's not a week that goes by

29:13

where I'm not like, oh man, if I hadn't had kids,

29:15

I'd be able to do this other thing. But

29:17

then I love my kids and I don't regret it.

29:20

So it's just a really tough choice.

29:22

I wonder how old this guy is, Gabriel. Because if

29:24

you're in your 20s or early 30s, man,

29:26

you just saw all your fun travel

29:28

plans and living abroad kind of go down the drain. Not

29:31

necessarily, it can be done, but this

29:33

is a torpedo in the hull of all

29:35

your life plans at any age.

29:38

The uncle option seems very risky as

29:40

well. We talked about this on the show a few months back.

29:42

These secrets, they got a way of coming

29:44

to light eventually. First of all, DNA

29:47

testing aside, who knows what everyone

29:49

might do at some point. Kids often sense that

29:51

the guy who always hangs around and looks a lot like them

29:53

is maybe their dad.

29:54

My friend's going through this right now. He

29:56

looks exactly like his uncle who

29:59

happened to live. with them while he

30:01

was born and before that.

30:03

Wow. He's asked his parents and

30:06

they never go, what are you talking about? That's ridiculous.

30:08

They just explode in rage and refuse

30:10

to talk about the situation. So he's like, yeah,

30:12

my uncle's my dad. And also he's got a

30:14

cousin who really

30:17

looks a hell of a lot like somebody

30:19

who would be a sister. I mean, it's basically a female

30:21

version of him. Wow. Now granted,

30:23

if it's his cousin, that's totally possible. But

30:25

it's also very possible that she is his sister. Yeah,

30:28

it's been a whole messy thing. And now he doesn't talk to his

30:30

parents. And it's like just one of many things

30:33

that went wrong.

30:34

So this gets messy and it gets messy in a whole other

30:36

way that is avoidable. Yeah,

30:39

then you're stacking lies on lies at that

30:41

point. And you're creating confusing

30:44

relationships. I think that's gonna

30:46

take a toll on you and the child. You're

30:48

looking at this kid that you can't acknowledge for years.

30:51

And then what if you change your mind as you get older and you're

30:53

like, hey, we should tell Timmy that I'm his dad. And she's

30:55

like, no, he's gonna hate me. And it's like, well, OK,

30:57

great. How do we undo that knot? Right. It's

31:00

gonna take a toll on the kid, feeling close to this

31:02

uncle, not knowing that the dad they

31:04

probably wish for every night before they

31:06

go to sleep and cry about is living right

31:08

there. Yeah, and is already in your

31:10

life. You just can't acknowledge it.

31:12

I mean, that's so screwed up somehow.

31:14

And then when it all does come out eventually, which

31:17

it probably will, then it's like, well, why did you

31:19

lie? Why did you hide this from me? Do you really love

31:21

me? I mean, it's so much more painful. It

31:23

is. And I just don't see that going

31:25

well at all. As for whether it's

31:28

possible to have legal documents created that

31:30

would make this a sperm donation. And by the way, that's

31:32

how the secret's gonna come out, right? Because those

31:34

are gonna end up somewhere while they're cleaning

31:36

the basement.

31:37

We're not experts in this field by any means, but

31:39

we did some homework. It turns out that these sperm

31:42

donor contracts, they're very important.

31:45

And they're also surprisingly complex. California

31:48

makes it a little easier. I don't know where this guy is because

31:50

we have so many same sex couples that it's often like,

31:52

OK, my brother's baby's with

31:55

a sperm, but it's our kid because

31:57

we're two lesbians or whatever. It's way

31:59

easier. But other states, not so much. Basically,

32:02

if you guys drew up paperwork that classifies you

32:04

as a sperm donor,

32:05

you'd also be establishing other crucial

32:08

things. Clarifying legal rights

32:10

and responsibilities of all the parties involved,

32:12

creating a basis for legal

32:15

parentage,

32:16

providing evidence of the party's intent in

32:18

the event of a legal dispute, stuff

32:20

like that. These agreements, they define

32:22

child support, visitation rights,

32:25

how future contact between you and the child

32:27

will be handled, all of which can

32:29

and probably will get very messy

32:32

down the line if you and or

32:34

your girlfriend ever change your minds

32:36

about what you want this relationship or arrangement

32:39

to look like. Like if she ever wants to move to

32:41

another state or she changes her mind and

32:43

she's like, actually, I could use some child support. Or

32:45

you're like,

32:46

actually, I kind of like, this is

32:48

great, maybe I should spend more time with this child even

32:50

if I'm lying about being an uncle. Or, you

32:52

know what, let's do the dad thing. And she's like, great, I want 20

32:54

years of back child support now. And you're like, well,

32:56

oh, crap, I can't do that. Cool, I'm gonna

32:59

hold this against you. You don't know how things

33:01

are going to change and progress in the next decade

33:03

or two. And that's dangerous, in

33:06

my opinion. Now, what we couldn't figure

33:08

out from our research

33:09

is whether you can draw up one of these contracts

33:12

after conception. At that

33:15

point, this might just be an unplanned

33:17

pregnancy, which makes you a

33:19

parent, not a sperm donor.

33:21

But we can't be sure, if any lawyer's listening

33:23

right now, know the answer to that. And it's very specific

33:26

and maybe easier than we thought. Please write us,

33:28

we can pass that information along to our friend here.

33:31

I'm gonna go out in a limb and say it's state dependent, like

33:33

literally everything that

33:35

has to do with stuff like this. So your

33:37

best bet is to contact an attorney

33:39

in your state, a family lawyer, or

33:41

somebody who specializes in assisted reproduction

33:44

law. And do that yesterday,

33:47

because I don't know how far along your girlfriend

33:49

is, but things might change

33:51

dramatically after the actual

33:54

birth of the child. Especially because these laws,

33:56

they always change state to state. We're gonna link

33:58

to a few good websites we found

33:59

show notes, those might help, but again,

34:01

if you find a way to be classified as a donor,

34:04

be aware that you are probably also

34:07

narrowly defining your rights, which

34:09

might suit you just fine for now, but

34:11

be prepared for that.

34:13

This is incredibly tricky stuff.

34:14

I'm actually sorry this happened. I'm

34:17

not gonna lie, I'm a little frustrated. I find this whole

34:19

situation very avoidable and sad,

34:21

but here we are, time to adapt, man. Big

34:23

boy pants,

34:24

big everybody pants.

34:26

And look, maybe you'll learn to be a great dad,

34:28

and you'll have a blast being in the kid's life. I

34:31

personally, sincerely hope that's the case, because

34:33

that's the best outcome for everybody, is

34:35

if you enjoy it, and the kid loves having

34:38

you as his dad, and there's not all this drama after

34:40

he's born, and who knows, maybe you even get

34:42

married to this woman, and it's a happily ever after situation,

34:44

but regardless of how you feel,

34:47

I'm afraid you really do owe it to

34:49

the child to be as present,

34:51

and frankly, as honest, as you possibly

34:53

can, so good luck.

34:55

You can reach us Friday at jordanharbinger.com.

34:58

Please keep your emails concise. Try to use

35:00

descriptive subject lines. That makes our job

35:02

a whole lot easier. If you're finding dead squirrels

35:04

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35:06

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35:09

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35:11

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35:13

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35:15

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35:17

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35:20

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up at jordanharbinger.com slash

35:40

news. Okay, next up.

35:42

Hey, Jordan and Gabe. My wife

35:45

takes a prescription sleep medication.

35:47

When it starts to take effect, there are

35:49

about 10 minutes before she falls asleep where

35:52

she gets really talkative and

35:54

has no filter.

35:56

She has zero memory of what she says, but

35:58

will agree that it's true if asked about it.

35:59

later. Good news is, she's

36:02

apparently still in love with me after 25 years

36:05

and has never said anything hurtful.

36:07

Frequently though, she'll talk about sex.

36:10

Let's just say, kind and gentle

36:12

isn't how she wants me to act.

36:14

These requests are not completely out of

36:16

character for her but dialed up to 10.

36:19

If I try to talk to her about it, I can tell she's

36:21

initially eager, but then she gets

36:23

nervous to the point where it affects her mood

36:25

before anything can happen.

36:27

I'm usually the one less comfortable talking about sex,

36:29

so this is not what I'm used to.

36:32

How can I discuss what I should or shouldn't

36:34

do while making her feel more at ease talking

36:36

about it? Signed, Getting

36:38

Blocked When My Wife Balks at

36:40

this edgy pillow talk. Gabe, this reminds me

36:43

of that song from the 80s by

36:45

The Romantics. You know, I hear the

36:47

secrets that you keep. I don't know the song.

36:49

When you're talking in your sleep.

36:51

It's a very, very 80s track. 1983, man. The

36:53

album is called In Heat. By

36:59

The Romantics.

37:00

But yeah, man, wow. Interesting. So,

37:03

when your wife is disinhibited by the medication

37:05

when she's all drugged up, she's honest about

37:07

what she wants in bed.

37:09

But when you talk to her when she's not impaired,

37:11

she gets embarrassed. She shuts down, which

37:14

I mean, look, this totally makes sense. In a way, it's

37:16

very sweet. She's still in love with you after 25

37:18

years. She still wants

37:20

you. That's awesome. But I can see how this

37:22

puts you at a tough spot, right? I mean, she probably grew

37:24

up not raised to talk about this kind

37:27

of stuff at all or even think about it.

37:29

And also, kudos to you for finding a freak in the sheets.

37:31

I mean, that sounds fun or potentially

37:34

fun.

37:34

So this, again, is interesting. My

37:37

impulse is to say you guys need to talk

37:39

openly about this, work through her conflict

37:41

around the type of sex she wants to have and just

37:43

start just go for it, start exploring. But

37:46

talking openly about what your wife wants

37:48

in bed, that's what triggers her

37:50

nerves and tanks her mood. And that's the obstacle.

37:53

So I think you have two angles

37:55

here. Both are compatible. Option

37:58

one, a shitload of booze.

37:59

No, I'm kidding. The real option

38:02

one is you take charge a little more. You don't

38:04

talk as directly about these fantasies.

38:06

You just start experimenting. Try

38:08

out some of the things she wants.

38:10

See how she responds. Be respectful,

38:13

move slowly, but take a chance.

38:15

You guys have been married for two and a half decades.

38:18

There's a lot of love and trust here. So I think you have

38:20

a strong foundation to work with. I think

38:22

there's a good chance your wife doesn't actually want

38:24

to talk about this.

38:26

She just wants to do it. And I

38:28

understand that. And part of the fantasy might be

38:30

you doing it without fricking turning

38:32

it into a clinical case study in

38:34

the psychodynamics of BDSM or whatever.

38:37

This is not a discussion session led by a TA

38:40

in a medical school. To be clear, I'm

38:42

not saying do anything without her consent. Even

38:45

if that is part of the fantasy, I know that stuff gets

38:47

complicated. You can check in with her a bunch

38:49

to make sure it's all welcome. I just mean

38:52

maybe the better approach isn't to intellectualize

38:55

this, but explore it in action. Maybe

38:57

just experiencing it

38:59

will be the thing that removes the self-consciousness,

39:02

not the over-planning. And

39:04

then you ease into this more and more and more and

39:07

probably have a lot of fun. Like I don't think you need to be like, what

39:09

kind of plastic sheeting do we need to lay down

39:11

on the floor before? And that's not romantic. Option

39:15

two,

39:15

your wife does some work on her own to

39:17

work through what sounds like shame attached

39:20

to some of this. If she has her own conflicts

39:22

around what she likes, which is very common,

39:25

she might have to resolve that first. I assume you

39:27

can do that on a Zoom session with a therapist who

39:29

probably does this stuff specifically.

39:31

My hope is that she can learn to resolve

39:34

that with you, either in

39:36

the talking or in the doing, but

39:38

you might have to be patient while she comes to terms with

39:40

some stuff on her own. I would also keep

39:42

inviting her to explore this when she

39:45

wants to and to make it as safe

39:47

as possible for her to open up about. Because I could imagine

39:49

a situation where, Jordan, I'm just

39:51

picturing like,

39:52

she says this thing, he gets intrigued, she

39:54

gets kind of excited when they talk about it the next day,

39:57

but then she hits this wall and she shuts down.

40:00

And then maybe he retreats and doesn't

40:02

want to go near any of that because it seems kind of

40:04

overwhelming or off-putting or just like confusing.

40:07

And then they don't talk about it anymore until

40:09

the next time she pops a Lunesta or whatever.

40:13

And then that might be reinforcing the cycle of I

40:15

want to talk about it, I can't talk about it. Where

40:18

are we? Yeah, Lunesta. I might need

40:20

some of those myself. Jen has a lot of trouble sleeping these days.

40:22

You know what I'm saying? Anyway,

40:25

if you guys can stay connected even

40:27

when she has this response, that

40:29

might be the bridge that gets you across the gap.

40:32

And I think the gap widens every time you try and

40:34

fail and then you each retreat. Does

40:36

that make sense, Gabe?

40:38

That's exactly what I meant, yes. And

40:40

then all that said, I would also listen to any

40:42

potential signals that your wife doesn't actually

40:45

want this. Who knows? Maybe she's got

40:47

Lunesta brain, maybe she's saying

40:49

stuff she maybe kind of wants, but when it comes down

40:51

to it, it's just like it's a little bit turnoff-y. It

40:53

only exists in her mind, she doesn't really want it. Again, stuff

40:55

can get complicated. Didn't Roseanne Barr

40:58

pop an Ambien and then just go full KKK

41:00

on Twitter? It's hard to

41:02

know when the sleep medication brings

41:05

out a false you and when it brings out the

41:07

true you. But I think she also did something else

41:09

that was super racist recently. Yeah, a bit dicey

41:11

with Roseanne Barr as in the case study, but I

41:13

take your point. Yeah, she might be a bad case study.

41:15

She might just be somebody who is actually racist

41:18

and doesn't need the medication, just uses it

41:20

as an excuse. So I know I'm contradicting

41:22

myself a little bit here, but talking is

41:24

still important just to check in and help

41:26

your

41:26

wife get clear on whether she does or

41:29

does not want this type of intimacy.

41:31

But again, you guys won't really know until you

41:33

try it. And look, this isn't like some random girl you're going

41:36

on five dates with, it's your wife of 25 years. So

41:38

I feel like you can

41:40

roll the dice a little bit and she's not going to be

41:42

like, I feel violated because of you and

41:44

I didn't, I'm not comfortable saying anything. I mean, it's

41:46

your wife of decades. So

41:48

give it a shot as long as everybody's

41:51

sort of kosher with it. I have a feeling it's going to

41:53

go well and good luck. And you know,

41:55

keep a tube of icy hot by the bedside. Make

41:57

sure to stretch and warm up, man. You don't want to pull a hand.

42:00

while you're getting your Discovery Channel going. You

42:03

know what you won't need highly potent prescription

42:06

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46:41

Okay, what's next?

46:43

Hey Jordan and Gabe, I'm 37 years old, I

46:45

live in central Mexico, and I work for a

46:47

Japanese supplier in the automotive industry.

46:50

I'm a salesman, a customer service person, and

46:52

a project developer. My

46:55

work is to get new business, make things

46:57

happen, and get yelled

46:59

at when everything goes wrong.

47:01

I always go the extra mile. I'm

47:03

the kind of guy who stays one or two hours extra

47:06

in the office, comes in on weekends, solves

47:08

all kinds of problems, and worries way

47:11

too much about things that are not my job.

47:13

I get lemons and make lemonade.

47:16

In the past, this has awarded me promotions

47:19

and the respect of my peers, but lately

47:21

I've realized that this model doesn't

47:23

work anymore.

47:24

I've been promised a promotion for three years

47:27

by two different bosses. The last

47:29

one, before returning to Japan, told me he

47:31

was gonna promote me to sub-manager, but

47:33

it never happened.

47:35

He went back to Japan months ago and left me

47:37

with a ton of work undone.

47:39

Now I have the work of an acting manager

47:41

without any of the compensation. I

47:43

know I'm not getting the promotion. I already asked,

47:46

and I just got silence. So

47:49

I'm rejecting all the new work and setting

47:51

boundaries with my bosses. If I'm not

47:54

a manager, I shouldn't do managers'

47:56

work.

47:57

But that's not a solution. I know my

47:59

time here is over.

47:59

and it's time for a new job. I just want to

48:02

learn something from this experience.

48:04

How do you balance going the extra mile

48:06

with protecting and valuing your time? How

48:09

much is too much? Signed,

48:11

el ques alquila en

48:13

la maquila. Oh, snap. So we're doing sign-offs

48:16

in different languages now? That was actually

48:18

from the guy who wrote it, and kudos to you for that one,

48:20

Ehrmano. I like that one. That reminds

48:22

me of Arrested Development. Ehrmano.

48:25

Ehrmano. Yeah. So

48:28

I think that means the guy who rents

48:30

himself out in a foreign-owned factory

48:32

in Mexico. It's nice. I mean, that is a good one.

48:35

That is a great one. Very good, well

48:37

done in Spanish as well. Although is

48:39

it easier to rhyme in Spanish? It seems like it might

48:41

be. I actually

48:42

think it is a little bit sometimes. Maybe we

48:44

should outsource the sign-offs to this guy. There

48:46

you go. Kind of like how this Japanese company is outsourcing

48:48

automotive parts to his factory. He clearly

48:50

does not have enough work to do. Right. You're

48:53

only doing one or two unpaid jobs. Let's

48:55

give him another one.

48:56

He needs more lemons to make uncompensated

48:58

lemonade out of. Exactly. Let's

49:00

dive into this, because he's actually asking a really good

49:02

question. So if you listen

49:05

to the show regularly, you know Gabe and

49:07

I are big fans of going the extra mile.

49:09

Whenever people write to us saying, hey, I want

49:11

to get promoted. I want a better title. I want more responsibility.

49:15

Our response is always, great. Stop

49:17

waiting for permission. Show your bosses what

49:20

you can do just by doing it. And

49:22

act as if you already have

49:24

that promotion.

49:25

Not doing other people's work, but going

49:27

the extra mile. Do that for three, four, six

49:30

months, however long it takes to generate

49:32

real results that you can then go to

49:34

your company and say, hey, look, this is

49:36

what I've accomplished. This is how much I

49:38

care.

49:39

I'd love to be compensated for this value that

49:41

I'm creating for you.

49:42

And that conversation usually

49:45

goes very differently from the

49:47

typical, hey, I want to rise up.

49:49

Please give me a chance. It's

49:51

a totally different paradigm for

49:54

rising up. I remember a long time ago,

49:56

I hired a guy. He wasn't really performing

49:58

well. And he said something like that.

49:59

like, well, if you guys make me a partner, an equity partner

50:02

in the business, I'll do more work. And we were like, when

50:04

can we fire this kid? Because he does not

50:06

get it.

50:07

Now,

50:08

I've seen firsthand how this works, but

50:10

it doesn't always work because sometimes

50:12

a company just can't or will not

50:15

reward you. And that sucks, obviously.

50:18

So that's where you need to make a call about

50:20

the limit in terms of going above

50:22

and beyond. Every company's different. Sometimes

50:25

it takes a few months to know whether you're gonna get what you want.

50:28

Sometimes it takes a year or more, but he

50:30

said it's been three years of this now. That

50:32

is more than enough time to know

50:34

that these people are not valuing you correctly.

50:37

And maybe I'm talking out of school here, but

50:40

I feel like I've heard this about Japanese companies before,

50:42

it's like, oh, you're not Japanese? You are not

50:44

going to ever get into a leadership

50:46

role because that's not how we roll,

50:48

period. Interesting. I don't

50:50

know if that's the case here. I mean, they are in Mexico.

50:53

Maybe there's other Mexican managers at

50:55

the level he wants to get to, but I mean,

50:57

how much of a beating do you need to take? At this point,

51:00

since you know this promotion ain't coming,

51:03

my advice is

51:04

you start looking for another job and

51:06

you use this awesome experience you've carved

51:08

out for yourself to tell a great story.

51:11

And by the way, this is why you

51:13

can't lose by going the extra

51:15

mile before you get promoted. People

51:18

ask us that a lot too. So I'm just supposed to do

51:20

more work for the same pay? Won't I be undervaluing

51:23

myself? When I'd be taken advantage of?

51:25

And the answer is, yeah, at a certain point, maybe,

51:28

but it's never a total loss because

51:30

if your company refuses to reward

51:32

your hard work, you now have a ton

51:34

of experience to speak to in

51:37

interviews.

51:38

And that is an amazing pitch to a

51:40

prospective hiring manager. Yeah, I was a

51:42

salesman and project developer. My job

51:44

was to drum up new business, but I actually did

51:46

the work of a sub manager without anyone

51:49

asking me.

51:50

I handled this and this and that, and I

51:52

managed a team of N people. I

51:54

constantly look for problems to solve. That's

51:57

the experience that I wanna bring

51:59

to your company.

51:59

Now, your boss might

52:02

not have formalized the promotion and

52:04

the pay, but it doesn't matter because

52:06

you gave that promotion to yourself. And

52:09

now you're taking all of those accomplishments

52:11

into your interviews for the next position. Could

52:14

not agree more. And that's what you're

52:16

learning from this experience, that you did so much

52:18

right. You just probably did it for longer

52:20

than you should have, which is totally fine and honestly

52:23

speaks to your great character. So next time

52:25

this happens,

52:26

if it happens, I hope it doesn't. But if it does, you'll know

52:28

sooner whether a company is willing to reward

52:30

you and you'll make a move a lot

52:32

sooner if you have to.

52:34

The way to balance going the extra mile with

52:36

still valuing your effort is, I

52:38

think, to do great work

52:40

while also paying attention to the signals

52:42

that you're receiving. The way your colleagues

52:44

treat you,

52:45

the feedback you get, the degree

52:47

of responsibility you have, of the influence you

52:49

have. Yes, of course, the money you make, the

52:52

title, the quality of your relationships

52:54

with everybody else in the office. They'll tell you

52:56

what you need to know.

52:57

We can't sit here and tell you something like,

53:00

only work hard for five and a half months

53:02

and not a day longer or whatever. Or

53:05

just stay until 645 after that, you're

53:07

a sucker. It doesn't really work like that. Every

53:10

situation is different.

53:11

But you know in your bones when people

53:13

take you seriously and when they value you. And

53:16

after a while, you kind of know when they're going

53:18

to reward you with the external stuff.

53:20

So generally speaking, I would say, what, Jordan,

53:23

after

53:24

nine months, maybe a year of chasing

53:26

a promotion, if you're not getting any closer

53:28

to what you want, then it's

53:31

probably time to reevaluate. But

53:33

I wouldn't let this negative experience here with this

53:35

promotion kill this incredible mindset

53:37

of yours because you have so much

53:39

to offer, dude, and you're a real leader. And

53:42

employees like that are a gift.

53:44

Yeah, I couldn't agree more. I would say one caveat

53:47

is if your bosses are telling you you're biting off

53:49

more than you can chew and you should focus on your own job,

53:52

then it's a problem because what they're saying is

53:54

you're not getting your own job done. Stop trying to

53:56

do other people's jobs. But if that's not

53:58

happening and they're like, yeah, you're.

53:59

You're doing a great job, we love all the extra work you're doing,

54:02

can I have a potion? I, uh, well,

54:04

I don't know. Then they're taking advantage of you.

54:06

So don't give up on being generous. Don't

54:09

stop looking for ways to be useful. Just

54:11

be a little savvier and more responsive

54:14

to these signals. And now that you're here,

54:16

go find a company that values you.

54:18

When you find it, this whole chapter is going to make

54:20

a lot more sense and you're going to feel so

54:23

much better about your killer

54:25

work. And good luck, man. What's

54:27

interesting is now he has three years of experience,

54:29

but he's going to go into this position new and they're going to be like, man,

54:31

this guy is really cut out for management. Look

54:33

at him. He's just sailing because you've already done

54:36

the work, that job for three

54:38

years, which is long. You probably should already

54:40

be promoted to the next level already.

54:42

Plus this guy really knows how to rhyme. So

54:45

yeah, that's true. You get them all over the office puns.

54:47

That's how this guy's step. That's true. Now,

54:50

whether the Japanese people will appreciate his Spanish pun

54:52

game is up in the air also.

54:54

Before we wrap up here, we got a really

54:56

fascinating letter from a listener who managed to escape

54:59

not one, but two multi-level

55:02

marketing organizations after going

55:04

through some pretty wild experiences. Gabe, you want

55:06

to read that for us?

55:07

Sure thing. So the

55:09

letter goes, hi, guys. For many years, I was involved

55:11

in a multi-level marketing company called Monat

55:14

and was also part of an MLM coaching group called

55:16

Rank Makers.

55:18

Long story short, I was caught up in this for

55:20

five years. Through the coaching

55:22

group, I kept purchasing additional coaching

55:25

and eventually purchased the 100K

55:27

inner circle coaching, which involved being part

55:30

of yet another Facebook group watching

55:32

more videos with the promise that I would achieve

55:34

the holy grail of the six-figure

55:37

income through my quote unquote network

55:39

marketing business.

55:41

Many of us involved in MLMs get sucked into

55:43

purchasing additional coaching because our quote

55:46

unquote businesses don't grow.

55:48

We believe there's something wrong with our mindset,

55:51

that we have limiting beliefs, that we're

55:53

sabotaging ourselves. I was a very

55:55

good cult member and did at least one

55:57

Facebook live every single day for three

55:59

a half years.

56:01

I would do these videos on all kinds of content

56:03

that often had nothing to do with MONAT and use

56:05

them as a lure for people to comment on.

56:08

I would then send them a DM and strike up a conversation

56:10

to see if they'd be open to taking a look at a video

56:13

for making passive income. Then

56:15

one day I was out hiking

56:17

and this guy partway up the trail

56:20

flashed me. Dude was full

56:22

on buck naked. My

56:25

instincts to run kicked in,

56:28

but simultaneously I was scolding

56:30

myself. Don't be rude. Don't make him

56:32

feel bad by taking off.

56:34

I had two voices raging inside of me

56:36

and as I took off running I became angrier

56:38

and angrier at myself than I fought against my instincts

56:41

in this disturbing toxic positivity

56:44

kind of way.

56:45

But still, like a good cult member, I

56:47

made a Facebook Live at the top of the mountain

56:49

about this douchebag guy. Because

56:51

of that video, one of my non-MLM

56:54

friends sent me a link to your Gavin De Becker interview

56:56

on the gift of fear. I felt so

56:58

validated listening to that conversation. I

57:01

don't know how much you know about being in an

57:03

MLM, but for me, my brain could

57:06

not process anything that was against the MLM.

57:08

It was like a brick wall would come down and all

57:11

I could perceive was hate. In these groups

57:13

I was a part of, fear was always described as

57:15

false evidence appearing real. Listening

57:18

to the interview, I was like, no, fear can also

57:20

be our instinct. Nothing false about that dick

57:23

on the trail. Exactly.

57:25

Can't argue with that.

57:26

Slowly, I began waking up more and more.

57:29

When I watched Lula Rich, the documentary

57:31

about the famous MLM,

57:34

I remember not being able to hear Robert Fitzpatrick,

57:36

the guy who wrote Ponzi-nomics, talk about

57:38

how pyramid schemes work. It scared me.

57:41

But I wanted to hear, and

57:43

that brick wall in my brain just

57:45

came down.

57:46

Finally, a year and a half ago, I left the

57:49

MLM and the group

57:50

and began speaking out against them on social media.

57:53

I got into therapy with a psychologist who had experience

57:55

working with people involved in cults and

57:57

was also against multilevel marketing.

57:59

I had one goal, to see my MLM

58:02

coach get out, and she did.

58:04

She's joined me in whistleblowing against the

58:06

coaching group.

58:07

I continue to speak out and have helped others

58:09

exit their MLMs and rank makers too.

58:12

A number of things stand out to me as I heal

58:14

and move on from the shit show I was a part of. Your

58:16

interview with Gavin De Becker and that Facebook

58:18

post you wrote about MLMs both encouraged

58:21

me to begin thinking critically when people

58:23

within the MLM told me to avoid people like

58:25

you.

58:26

I eventually sent you a message thanking you and

58:28

you were kind to me.

58:29

Even though I knew you were against multilevel marketing.

58:32

Thanks again for the content you create and the people

58:34

you're helping by created. This time

58:37

the thanks is coming from me being free.

58:40

Signed, Julie. So

58:42

of course I love this email. It's

58:44

one of the more fascinating ones we've gotten from

58:46

folks in the MLM world or who

58:48

get out of the MLM world. We get a decent amount.

58:51

As you guys know, I am kind of

58:53

on a mission to expose multilevel marketing

58:55

scams wherever I can. I

58:58

just find them to be one of the most absurd

59:00

destructive models out there.

59:03

But it's really what they do to people's lives.

59:05

Their world views, their relationships,

59:08

their sense of self that gets

59:10

me fired up. The way they operate like cults

59:12

in a lot of ways, how they make it very difficult

59:15

if not impossible to see outside

59:17

of the oppressive bubble that

59:19

they create. So what moved me

59:21

about this letter,

59:23

so many things, right? But what really stands

59:25

out to me is the courage it

59:27

must have taken our friend here to step outside

59:29

of this programming and start questioning

59:32

what she was being sold. Totally.

59:34

This is one of the hardest things

59:36

to do in life.

59:38

This very basic form of

59:40

independent critical thinking because it means

59:43

having to potentially give up many sources

59:45

of support, right?

59:46

The prosperity, connection, safety,

59:49

financial, as well as emotional and intellectual

59:52

support.

59:53

I'm not just talking about Facebook groups, but a lot of times

59:55

your only friends are people from

59:58

these MLMs, they'll cut you off. It's like being a real cult.

59:59

It's like being in a culty church where you

1:00:02

get excommunicated, right? You're a hater

1:00:04

now. And a person who can do what Julie

1:00:06

just did and listen, not even

1:00:08

agree with everything she hears, but just listen,

1:00:12

that is brilliant. But to me, this

1:00:14

is about being willing to be in contact

1:00:16

with reality, to reassert

1:00:18

your own needs over the control of

1:00:21

organizations that only want to profit

1:00:23

from their members' extreme vulnerability. That's

1:00:25

all this is.

1:00:26

One of the themes we hear again and again on this

1:00:28

show

1:00:29

is the mental prisons that

1:00:31

people construct around themselves. And

1:00:33

we all do this to some degree, whether it's with our

1:00:36

beliefs or our conditioning or our stories, it

1:00:38

could be political, could not be. I know how

1:00:40

hard it is to walk out of those

1:00:42

prisons, especially after years

1:00:45

of being inside.

1:00:47

So when Julie talked about being scared during

1:00:49

Lula Rich, but still wanting to hear some difficult

1:00:51

truths and also being ready to hear them,

1:00:53

I mean, that's an important factor too. And that brick

1:00:55

wall in her brain came down. I mean,

1:00:58

standing ovation, because that willingness

1:01:00

to tolerate the discomfort,

1:01:02

that healthy tension of

1:01:04

being confused and uncertain, which the

1:01:07

human brain hates, by the way, that

1:01:08

is so important.

1:01:10

It's table stakes for finding the

1:01:12

people and ideas you need to help

1:01:14

you, enrich you, make you better.

1:01:17

But again, it takes genuine courage

1:01:19

and humility. And for some people, including

1:01:22

a lot of people caught up in predatory organizations,

1:01:24

it's

1:01:25

just too threatening. But you did

1:01:27

that. And look where it got you. I'm

1:01:29

insanely proud of you, really I am. And I'm very

1:01:31

happy that you got out.

1:01:33

Man, I am too. It's an extraordinary

1:01:35

story. I'm also fascinated by that story about

1:01:37

the hike. I mean, this guy who flashed

1:01:40

her and inadvertently let her out of an MLM.

1:01:42

She was questioning her reaction to him. It's interesting

1:01:45

that it took something so bizarre and

1:01:47

I don't know, like

1:01:48

dangerous and primal, I guess is the word

1:01:50

that I'm looking for, to shock her back into

1:01:53

her natural instinct. Yeah. I mean, the

1:01:55

whole false evidence appearing real. It's like, well, okay, how

1:01:57

do I square this? That's pretty real.

1:01:59

That was real AF. And it actually makes

1:02:02

sense, right? A lot of times people caught up in coercive

1:02:04

organizations or dangerous relationships.

1:02:07

They need an experience like that to

1:02:09

come back to themselves. Because

1:02:12

when you're threatened in a more primal way,

1:02:14

it kind of cuts through the BS and right

1:02:17

to the core of who you are. You know, you're back in

1:02:19

touch with your organic responses,

1:02:21

your healthy fear,

1:02:23

your protective anger, whatever

1:02:25

it is. And then when you're like, someone so guru

1:02:27

would say, this is false evidence appearing real, your amygdala

1:02:30

is like, I don't care what Karen

1:02:32

said at the last circle up meeting on

1:02:34

Facebook, whatever. There's a wiener

1:02:37

in your face, man. You know, you're hiking

1:02:39

for God's sake. So you're like, okay, creep,

1:02:41

freaking flash me in public. And I'm here worried

1:02:44

about his

1:02:44

feelings. What the hell is wrong with me? It

1:02:47

really just, it brings the programming into

1:02:49

stark relief. Yeah, good term. So you

1:02:51

see how this conditioning and propaganda in

1:02:53

her case, it's this toxic positivity,

1:02:56

how that stuff sits on top of your very

1:02:58

intelligent, indwelling instincts.

1:03:01

And that's a moment where you go, okay, crap,

1:03:04

I can't even trust my legitimate need to

1:03:06

be physically safe. Where did that message

1:03:08

come from? This also reminds me of our episode

1:03:11

with Sarah Nippey about Nexium.

1:03:13

You know, there were a few of those, oh shit moments,

1:03:15

like the brick wall is slowly coming down moments.

1:03:17

And they had to stack up before they finally

1:03:20

decided to leave and blow the whistle because the

1:03:22

branding they did in that cult,

1:03:25

I mean, much more dramatic and very

1:03:27

weird, but it's kind of a similar thing, right? It's

1:03:29

like, wait, I'm letting them physically hurt me now?

1:03:31

Like I'm letting people freaking mark me? Something

1:03:34

isn't right. Yeah, she got branded

1:03:36

on her VJJ. If you haven't heard that episode

1:03:38

yet, that was a wake up call and also

1:03:41

very primal, right? The pain involved with that. That's

1:03:43

another primal experience that can shock you into taking

1:03:45

a huge step back and questioning what you are

1:03:48

a part of. And it's crazy that it takes

1:03:50

something that enormous to do it,

1:03:52

but that just speaks to how powerful these structures

1:03:55

in your mind can be. That was episode 770 and 771,

1:03:57

by the way.

1:03:59

if you want to hear what it's like to be inside a sex cult,

1:04:02

one of many sex cult episodes we've done, I guess. It's

1:04:04

funny, this also reminds me, I mean, it's not funny

1:04:07

at all, but it's interesting. This also reminds me of the letter

1:04:09

we took a couple months back from the

1:04:11

woman who, do you remember the woman who grew up in that religious

1:04:13

cult and then she got a traumatic brain injury

1:04:15

in a car accident? Yeah, Amanda Katarzi,

1:04:17

yeah. Oh yeah, Amanda, but I was actually talking about

1:04:19

the woman who wrote into Feedback Friday. Oh, oh, oh.

1:04:22

It was like similar to Amanda. Yes, good point. This

1:04:24

was like six weeks ago or two months ago and suddenly

1:04:26

her brain was different, her personality

1:04:28

was different, her needs were different and suddenly she saw

1:04:31

how toxic the community she grew

1:04:33

up in was because nobody took her seriously and

1:04:35

nobody really wanted to help her after she had helped them for

1:04:37

decades. In a very different way,

1:04:40

she also had to come back to her basic needs

1:04:42

too through the serious accident, which ultimately

1:04:45

led her to wake up. And that was

1:04:47

fascinating. That was episode 842, by the way. Right,

1:04:49

also, and Amanda Katarzi also grew up in

1:04:51

a cult and was being trafficked and she got in an accident.

1:04:54

And that was her wake up call. There's really a theme

1:04:56

going here.

1:04:57

So there it is again, man, this is so fascinating.

1:04:59

All these stories have this element

1:05:01

of physical danger or physical vulnerability.

1:05:04

That's not a coincidence, I think.

1:05:06

But here's the good news. We don't

1:05:08

need to get branded or flashed

1:05:11

on a hike or hit by a car

1:05:13

before we can start thinking critically.

1:05:15

We can start now by keeping an eye

1:05:17

on our biases, staying connected

1:05:19

to our healthy skepticism, choosing

1:05:22

to remain open to the facts. But

1:05:24

it's good to know that life has a weird way of serving

1:05:26

up the experiences we need to wake up, sometimes,

1:05:29

anyway.

1:05:30

So Julie, it's hard to express

1:05:32

how much this email means to us. We're thrilled

1:05:34

our show could play even a small role in

1:05:36

you waking up, so to speak.

1:05:39

I thank you for sharing your story with us

1:05:41

and using your real name, which you actually encouraged

1:05:43

us to do, because you said the best way to deal

1:05:46

with the shame that these groups created is

1:05:48

to own your story. And I really admire that.

1:05:50

You're an amazing model for tons of people caught

1:05:52

up in questionable groups. I'm not exaggerating.

1:05:55

When I say you're a friggin' champ and a hero, and I

1:05:57

wish only good things for

1:05:59

you.

1:06:00

from here on out, and deviant

1:06:02

free hikes, too, because you deserve at least that.

1:06:05

Imagine, Gabe, all it took was

1:06:07

one hairy swingin' schlong to

1:06:09

break the paradigm and turn things around.

1:06:12

And Julie, that man on your path,

1:06:15

that was me. You're welcome. Hope

1:06:17

y'all enjoyed that. I wanna thank everyone who wrote

1:06:19

in this week and everyone who listened. Thank you so much.

1:06:22

Go back and check out the episodes with Rory Stewart,

1:06:24

including our fundraiser with GiveDirectly to help lift

1:06:26

a village in Kenya out of poverty. GiveDirectly.com

1:06:30

slash Jordan is where you can find it, Remy

1:06:32

Adeleke, and our Skeptical Sunday on

1:06:35

astrology. Make sure to check out those episodes

1:06:37

if you haven't done so yet. And once again, the fundraiser

1:06:39

is GiveDirectly.com slash Jordan.

1:06:42

Once again, a reminder that the Stitcher app will no

1:06:44

longer work for any podcasts as

1:06:46

of August 29th, 2023. So

1:06:48

if you're using the Stitcher app, time to switch. If

1:06:51

you're on Android, Podcast Addict is

1:06:53

a good one, CastBox, and if you're on iOS,

1:06:55

I suggest Overcast or Apple Podcasts.

1:06:58

The Stitcher app is going away, folks.

1:07:00

The best things that have happened in my life and business have come

1:07:02

through my network, the circle of people

1:07:04

that I know, like, and trust, and I'm

1:07:07

teaching you how to do the same thing for yourself in our

1:07:09

six-minute networking course. It's free, it's

1:07:11

not gross, it's not schmoozy,

1:07:12

it's not culty, and it's totally

1:07:14

schlong free, and you can find it on the Thinkific

1:07:16

platform at JordanHarbinger.com

1:07:18

slash course.

1:07:20

Dig that well before you're thirsty, build relationships

1:07:22

before you need them. Again, at JordanHarbinger.com

1:07:24

slash course. Show notes and transcripts at JordanHarbinger.com.

1:07:28

Advertisers, deals, discounts, and ways to support this

1:07:31

show,

1:07:31

all at JordanHarbinger.com slash

1:07:34

deals, or ask our AI chat bot right

1:07:36

there on the website.

1:07:37

I'm at JordanHarbinger on Twitter and

1:07:39

Instagram. You can also connect with me on LinkedIn, and

1:07:41

you can find Gabe on Instagram at Gabriel

1:07:43

Mizrahi, or on Twitter at Gabe Mizrahi.

1:07:46

This show is created in association with Podcast

1:07:49

One. My team is Jen Harbinger, Jace Sanderson,

1:07:51

Robert Fogerty, Ian Baird, Millie

1:07:53

Ocampo, and of course, Gabriel Mizrahi.

1:07:56

Our advice and opinions are our own, and I'm

1:07:58

a lawyer, but not your lawyer.

1:07:59

own research before implementing anything you

1:08:02

hear on the show. Remember, we rise

1:08:04

by lifting others, share the show with those you love, and

1:08:06

if you found the episode useful, please share it with

1:08:08

somebody else who can use the advice we gave

1:08:10

here today. In the meantime, I hope you apply

1:08:12

what you hear on the show so you can live what

1:08:14

you learn, and we'll see you next time.

1:08:18

Now I've got some thoughts on this episode, but before

1:08:20

we get into that, here's what you should check out next

1:08:23

on The Jordan Harbinger Show. If you're

1:08:25

not honest with yourself, then how do you

1:08:27

ever move your life in a positive direction?

1:08:30

Because

1:08:30

you're starting from a point of fantasy. Nobody

1:08:34

can succeed if you're not honest with themselves.

1:08:37

Revenue cures all. You know, when I talk

1:08:39

to people in business seminars and they say, you know,

1:08:41

John, my labor cost is high, my marketing cost

1:08:43

is high, my promotion cost is high, my

1:08:45

tech cost is high. But if I could

1:08:48

raise your revenue by 30%, you

1:08:50

wouldn't have tech costs, but you wouldn't have

1:08:52

labor costs, don't you? So it's the ultimate

1:08:55

pacifier of every problem that

1:08:57

exists in our lives. If we focus

1:09:00

on top line, which means I wake up in the morning

1:09:02

and the first thing I do is how do I monetize myself

1:09:04

right now? How do I drive revenue?

1:09:07

That is the first thing I have to do today. Then

1:09:09

I can deal with all of the other things that I have to,

1:09:11

but there's nothing more important to

1:09:14

an entrepreneur than revenue. And

1:09:17

if they don't wake up every morning and think

1:09:19

about revenue first thing, probably

1:09:21

you should be an entrepreneur. And

1:09:23

I'm going to say something that's going to upset some people. Sometimes

1:09:27

when I go to these businesses and I see a bartender,

1:09:29

people say he's been a bartender for 10 years. He

1:09:32

should be the manager. No.

1:09:34

If he's been a bartender for 10 years and he hasn't

1:09:36

bubbled up, then he's the last guy who should be

1:09:39

the manager. Some people are comfortable

1:09:41

where they are and you promote them right out of the company.

1:09:44

That guy who's been a bartender for 10 years, leave

1:09:46

him alone. The person who's not comfortable,

1:09:49

who's bubbling up on their own, that's the one who should

1:09:51

be promoted, even if they've only been leading for a couple

1:09:53

of months. I don't believe that you can make

1:09:55

a leader. I don't believe you can train a leader. I

1:09:58

don't believe you can make a leader.

1:09:59

You would have followed him off a cliff. We

1:10:03

leadership is boring. It's not kidding.

1:10:16

I

1:10:30

love telling stories with unbelievable twists

1:10:32

and turns. And this season

1:10:34

of Cold Case Files has all of that and

1:10:36

more. Her cause of death was

1:10:39

strangulation. Flying

1:10:40

face down on the bed. She was in a pretty

1:10:42

advanced state of decomposition. He

1:10:44

panicked and decided he was getting rid of the body.

1:10:46

I saw danger in everything. So

1:10:49

get ready. You don't want to miss what this

1:10:51

season has in store. New episodes of

1:10:53

Cold Case Files drop every Tuesday. Subscribe

1:10:55

to Cold Case Files wherever you listen to podcasts.