0:00

We have to give ourselves the

0:02

permission and the freedom to fail.

0:04

The permission and the freedom to

0:06

explore those limits and be okay.

0:09

First off, I think it's really

0:11

important is we need to diversify

0:13

what I call our sense of

0:16

self. It's not I failed at

0:18

running or I failed at this

0:20

test, it's I am a failure.

0:22

because we've intertwined our sense of

0:25

self with our success or our

0:27

failure in that activity. And when

0:29

we're so intertwined that we're defined

0:31

by it, that pushes us more

0:33

to that fear in that avoidance.

0:36

This episode is brought to

0:38

you by the great people

0:40

at Insight Global. Insight Global

0:42

is a staffing and professional

0:44

services company that builds world-class

0:46

teams for clients around the

0:49

globe. If you need to

0:51

build a new team with

0:53

a strong culture and improved

0:55

productivity, Insight Global's team of

0:57

talent advisors can help find

0:59

the people, bring them together,

1:01

and deliver the work needed.

1:03

Building a team

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can be tough,

1:07

but building teams

1:09

with strong culture

1:11

can be magic.

1:13

Visit insight global.com/learning

1:16

leader. That's insight

1:18

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1:20

learn more. Welcome to the

1:22

Learning Leader Show! I am your

1:24

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to six six eight

1:55

six six now on

1:57

to tonight's featured leader

1:59

Steve Agnes is world renowned

2:02

for his work on high

2:04

performance. He's the best-selling author

2:06

of many books, including The

2:08

Passion Paradox. Do hard things,

2:11

and most recently, win the

2:13

inside game. During our conversation,

2:15

we discuss the four things

2:18

we need to live a

2:20

meaningful life. Then how to

2:22

clearly define what success means

2:25

to you. not what society

2:27

tells you success is. And

2:29

then near the end, we

2:32

discussed how to work through

2:34

imposter syndrome and a specific

2:36

story on what Steve did

2:39

to get through this earlier

2:41

and his career. Ladies gentlemen,

2:43

this one is so good.

2:45

Please enjoy my conversation with

2:48

Steve Magnus. So

2:52

to start, I was reading your

2:54

acknowledgment section of your most recent

2:57

book and you wrote, this book

2:59

is for those who stood up

3:01

found courage and stuck to their

3:04

values and ethics. And you open

3:06

the book with a very personal

3:09

story about how you struggled but

3:11

then found the courage to stand

3:13

up. Can you? share more about

3:16

that personal story and how you

3:18

found the courage to stand up.

3:20

Yeah, absolutely. So my first job

3:23

actually my first job out at

3:25

a grad school, I worked for

3:28

Nike and I was working with

3:30

their world class distance runners, those

3:32

assistant coach, exercise physiologists for them

3:35

and You know at first I

3:37

thought this is my dream job

3:39

I'm what I don't know 24

3:42

and I said I hit it

3:44

big this is what I want

3:46

to do for the rest of

3:49

my life. But then I started

3:51

to see things that didn't quite

3:54

make sense and what I mean

3:56

by quite make sense is they

3:58

kind of pushed the bounds of

4:01

the rules of sports, of the

4:03

ethics of sport. And at first,

4:05

when I saw those, I kind

4:08

of rationalized and justified and said,

4:10

oh, you know, this isn't a

4:13

big deal or there's got to

4:15

be an explanation for it. And

4:17

that's what I did. I didn't

4:20

stand up. I, you know, took

4:22

supplements that were sketchy sounding or,

4:24

you know, I had. you know,

4:27

the team doctors do experiments where

4:29

I was the guinea bag to

4:31

test things out where I didn't

4:34

quite feel uncomfortable or feel comfortable,

4:36

but I went along with it

4:39

and rationalized the whole whole way

4:41

through. And it was only after

4:43

I made the decision about a

4:46

year and a half to leave

4:48

and then go do something else

4:50

where I said, you know what?

4:53

At first I was like, I

4:55

just need to move on. This

4:58

experience sucked. It wasn't what I

5:00

thought. High level sports sucks. I

5:02

don't want to be a part

5:05

of this. And I tried to

5:07

just kind of push it away.

5:09

But it just ate at me

5:12

and ate at me. And as

5:14

I took on a new job

5:16

and months went by, eventually I

5:19

said, you know what? I got

5:21

to do something. And I wrote

5:24

a very short email to US

5:26

Anti-Doping, who's in charge of, you

5:28

know, sport rules in track and

5:31

field. And I said, hey, this

5:33

is, I don't know, but this

5:35

is what I experienced. This is

5:38

everything I went through and things

5:40

that didn't seem right for me.

5:43

Look into it. And that started

5:45

a, gosh, nearly 10 year journey.

5:47

where I was a whistleblower and

5:50

it went all the way to,

5:52

you know, arbitration and you sought

5:54

a ruled against them and it

5:57

involved the FBI showing up at

5:59

my door and all this. and

6:01

me handing over my computer and

6:04

phone, and so they had everything

6:06

on me. And it was wild.

6:09

So the reason that's in the

6:11

acknowledgments as simple is because I

6:13

realized that I had this idea

6:16

of doing the right thing, of

6:18

what it took to stand up,

6:20

and then I faced the reality,

6:23

which was 100 times,

6:25

maybe more engrossing. then

6:27

I thought, so I have

6:29

a lot of respect for

6:31

people who face similar situations

6:33

and are put in that

6:35

that spot where they have

6:38

to choose, you know, which

6:40

way do I go on

6:42

doing the right thing or,

6:44

you know, keeping my job

6:47

and in navigating that

6:49

space. If you could go

6:51

back in time, how would you

6:53

have done it differently?

6:56

Because deep down, I knew, right,

6:58

I remember this one time, I was

7:01

at Nike, I was in one of

7:03

the buildings, and I came across this

7:05

chart that was put together by

7:08

the essential lead exercise physiologist

7:10

of the Nike lab, and

7:12

it had some information on

7:14

there. I think it said,

7:16

if I remember correctly, like

7:18

for an athlete presently on

7:21

testosterone medication. And

7:23

for anybody knows, if you're

7:25

in a Olympic competitive sport,

7:27

you can't take testosterone. You

7:29

know, this isn't general life.

7:32

This is competitive sports. So

7:34

there's rules. And I remember

7:36

seeing that be like, okay, this is

7:38

the first like, really red flag that I

7:40

saw. And instead, you know, or what

7:42

I did is I first called my

7:45

parents and said, what I

7:47

do. And they said, take it to

7:49

your boss. Ask for explanation. And They

7:51

gave me some explanation, but it was

7:53

kind of like brushed off and then

7:56

I never heard or saw those documents

7:58

again. And I kind of just you know,

8:00

rationalized in my mind and said,

8:02

oh, well, you know, what have

8:05

you? It could have been this,

8:07

could have been that. But deep

8:09

down, I knew something was off.

8:12

Like, this is Nike Head exercise

8:14

physiologists. They're not, you know, lax

8:16

with their words, right? This is

8:19

a trained scientist. They're gonna write

8:21

things to document things accurately. In

8:23

my gut, I knew. But I

8:25

ignored that sensation. And I ignored

8:28

that sensation because I was, I

8:30

think, because I was thinking of,

8:32

no, no, you have a good

8:35

job. You're gonna go to the

8:37

Olympics with athletes and watch and

8:39

coach them there. This is what

8:41

you wanted. Like, ignore all of

8:44

that. Just get through this so

8:46

that you can have this experience

8:48

and have it on your resume

8:51

and blah, blah, blah, etc, etc,

8:53

etc. Where deep down, I should

8:55

have listened to that non feeling

8:58

and said like, like, no. Like

9:00

there's a reason this is gnawing

9:02

at you. You need to listen

9:04

to it. We've all probably been

9:07

through not necessarily that situation, but

9:09

times where it was just easier

9:11

to let it go. It was

9:14

just easier to go about our

9:16

day, whether you see your boss

9:18

cheating or something along those lines.

9:21

And so we rationalize like you

9:23

did and justify it. And we

9:25

just let it go. You talk

9:27

about winning the inner game. One,

9:30

why do we do this? I

9:32

have my hunches, you know, it's

9:34

easier, but why do we do

9:37

this and there's science behind this

9:39

and how could we be better

9:41

or have more courage the next

9:44

time we're faced with a moment

9:46

where our gut intuition is telling

9:48

us this is not right. This

9:50

is not right. I should do

9:53

something about it. How would you

9:55

help us proceed? Yeah, so we

9:57

have an in-built... essentially self-preservation system,

10:00

a kind of psychological immune system

10:02

that wants to convince us that

10:04

we are good decent people who

10:07

are going to act in accordingly

10:09

to those values. And what happens

10:11

is when we face a discord

10:13

where we see something that threatens

10:16

our worldview or threatens our sense

10:18

itself, we have an option here.

10:20

We either do something about it.

10:23

Or we avoid shy away in

10:25

what I call like kind of

10:27

minimize and compartmentalize it to justify

10:30

it. And what happens is more

10:32

often than not, we choose the

10:34

avoid thing because it minimizes the

10:36

negative feeling in the short run.

10:39

Because often when we're in that

10:41

space, it feels uncomfortable. Our brain

10:43

goes, you know what? Forget it.

10:46

Protect us now. Don't protect us.

10:48

six months down the line, two

10:50

years down the line, protect us

10:53

now. And this anxiety, this angst

10:55

around it, feels really bad. And

10:57

the bigger the thing is, the

10:59

more powerful that urges to just

11:02

fix that anxiety now. So what

11:04

happens is we use these systems,

11:06

the rationalization, the justification, the changing

11:09

of the story to kind of

11:11

deal with the anxiety. And then

11:13

protect ourselves so that we don't

11:15

have to like deal with that

11:18

anxiety right right now. And that's

11:20

what it is. And we do

11:22

this on the big stage. We

11:25

do this on the small stage.

11:27

You know, you can see this

11:29

in sport all the time. Right.

11:32

What do we do after a

11:34

tough loss? We blame the ref.

11:36

You know, we blame other people.

11:38

Why? Because we don't it's it's

11:41

uncomfortable to deal with the situation

11:43

or the reality that maybe we

11:45

tried hard. And we came up

11:48

a little bit short and we

11:50

might need to figure out a

11:52

new path. We did this in

11:55

school, right? Or at least I

11:57

did. You have this big test

11:59

coming up and you. procrastinate and

12:01

don't study. One of the reasons

12:04

we do that is so that

12:06

afterwards, when we maybe get that B

12:08

or C instead of the A, we can

12:10

say, you know what, if I would have

12:12

studied, I would have got

12:15

that A, but it doesn't really

12:17

matter that much. It's all kind

12:19

of this protection. And I think

12:21

to deal with it, to put us

12:23

on the right path, it's that

12:25

external versus internal game. is

12:27

often we do it to deal

12:30

with the external, our projected

12:32

sense of self, to get

12:34

the outcome, to get that

12:36

so-called defined success. But if

12:38

we redefine that and look

12:40

at success internally, if we look

12:42

at who we want to be,

12:44

the values we hold up, if

12:47

we can come back to that

12:49

just to touch more than external,

12:51

then that's going to kind of allow

12:53

us to listen to our gut. Listen

12:55

to that sensation because now it's no

12:58

longer about, hey, I'm going to ignore

13:00

this sensation because I want to go

13:02

to the Olympic Games, or I'm going

13:04

to ignore this anxiety, or deal with

13:07

this anxiety to, you know, temporary get

13:09

the goal that I want. Now it's,

13:11

what are the values, what is the

13:13

internal success I'm defining as, who do

13:15

I want to be as a person?

13:18

And that is more important.

13:20

You're right about the fact that

13:22

we end up playing prevent defense.

13:24

And one of the examples you

13:27

use is think of the middle

13:29

school kid who doesn't really

13:31

try because they want to

13:33

look cool. And I think this

13:35

goes even beyond middle school. This

13:37

goes to as you age and

13:39

get get even older is if

13:41

you try really hard and fail,

13:43

then you're embarrassed. But if

13:45

you don't try, then it's like,

13:48

ah, whatever. We're just play prevent

13:50

defense. And so how can we

13:52

be better at not fearing the

13:54

embarrassment of trying really hard at

13:57

something and then falling on our

13:59

face. And with the idea of,

14:01

well, I just need to look

14:04

cool, or I just don't want

14:06

it to appear to others that

14:08

I was giving everything for. Like

14:10

some people say, they want to

14:13

admit like, oh, I didn't really

14:15

practice for that, or I didn't

14:17

do that. So like, maybe it's

14:20

bragging to be a natural, or

14:22

if you fail, and that's the

14:24

reason why. What should we do

14:26

instead if we care about sustainable

14:29

excellence? how should we get away

14:31

from playing prevent defense and go

14:33

more on offense? Yeah, so a

14:35

lot of this is, again, it

14:38

comes down to that protection. We

14:40

play prevent defense to protect ourselves

14:42

because if we try hard and

14:44

we fall short, it kind of

14:47

exposes us. It shows us that

14:49

maybe we're not prepared enough, maybe

14:51

we're not talented enough, maybe we're

14:54

not good enough, and then we

14:56

have to face, come face to

14:58

face to face with that realization.

15:00

So it's easier to just default

15:03

towards protection. What do we do

15:05

about it? We have to give

15:07

ourselves the permission and the freedom

15:09

to fail, the permission and the

15:12

freedom to explore those limits and

15:14

be okay. And that can occur

15:16

through a number of different mechanisms.

15:19

First off, I think it's really

15:21

important is we need to diversify

15:23

what I call our sense of

15:25

self. Often we protect because it

15:28

becomes, you know, it's not I

15:30

failed at running or I failed

15:32

at this test, it's I am

15:34

a failure because we've intertwined our

15:37

sense of self with our success

15:39

or our failure in that activity.

15:41

And when we're so intertwined that

15:44

we're defined by it, that pushes

15:46

us more to that fear in

15:48

that avoidance. The way out of

15:50

that. is to diversify yourself, to

15:53

say this is important. It's not

15:55

to. downplay it is to say,

15:57

I really care about my running.

15:59

I really care about writing. I

16:02

really care about, you know, being

16:04

a scientist. Like, it's part of

16:06

who I am. But it's not

16:08

the entire me. Meaning, if I

16:11

fail at running, I'm still a

16:13

husband, a father. I still have

16:15

these other aspects of my intellectual

16:18

pursuits or like work life that

16:20

I'm succeeding at. And there's research

16:22

behind us, the themed neuroscientist Robert

16:24

Sapolsky in the book I quote

16:27

it, but he essentially found research

16:29

that showed that if we fail

16:31

at our nine to five job

16:33

or if we're not doing well,

16:36

that hits on our status and

16:38

makes our stress hormones go up.

16:40

But if at the same time

16:43

we help our company win the

16:45

company softball tournament, we don't have

16:47

that as big of an increase

16:49

of those stress hormones. It sounds

16:52

silly, but helping our company in

16:54

this other way gives us a

16:56

little boost of status where it's

16:58

like, hey, I might have struggled

17:01

over here, but. like I still

17:03

have this significance over here. So

17:05

I think diversifying your sense of

17:08

self is one of the keys

17:10

to allow you to freedom to

17:12

fail. And then the other part

17:14

of it is I think reframing

17:17

things is a lot of times

17:19

and you've written about this as

17:21

well, right? And it's like outcomes

17:23

are important, but when we make

17:26

them the only thing, it becomes

17:28

this constraint or this crutch in

17:30

my own career. I was a

17:32

very good runner. I ran a

17:35

401 mile. At first trying to

17:37

run a four minute mile was

17:39

motivating, but at some point it

17:42

became a constraint because I saw

17:44

I'm trying to run a four

17:46

minute mile and every race was

17:48

defined by that. So if I

17:51

fell off pace just to touch,

17:53

even though I was still there,

17:55

it was still in the ballpark,

17:57

I still had a chance. That

18:00

signal went, ah, my brain goes,

18:02

ah, you're not going to make it.

18:04

Like you might as well give up. And even

18:06

though I cared, that outcome focus got

18:09

in my way. So when we're looking at

18:11

going from prevent deference to more

18:13

approach or offense, sometimes we have

18:15

to ask, is our focus on

18:17

the outcome getting in the way? And if

18:20

it is, then we need to just kind

18:22

of let it go and focus on,

18:24

okay, what's the process that I need

18:26

to take care of in this situation

18:28

in this situation? I'm 100%

18:30

with you. You know that Steve,

18:33

but I know that is far

18:35

easier said than done. How

18:37

do we get better at

18:39

marrying the process and

18:41

divorcing the result? I've

18:44

been told that by

18:46

mentors. I know that to be

18:48

true and I still. battle at all

18:50

the time. I wrote a book about

18:53

it. I mean, and I still battle

18:55

it all the time, man. What do

18:57

we do to get better at being

19:00

just committed to the process and the

19:02

outcome will be what the outcome

19:04

is. Yeah, so as you know, I

19:06

think the key here is to understand

19:09

that it's not an all or nothing

19:11

game. It's not a zero sum game.

19:13

And I think often people hear process

19:16

and they said, you know, here coaches

19:18

say focus on the process and they

19:20

think that means ignore outcomes at all

19:23

costs. That's not the case. You're

19:25

human, you care, you're striving,

19:27

outcomes matter. So start with

19:29

that is they're going to be

19:31

there. You want to win the

19:33

game. Our goal is simply to

19:36

go from outcomes are all consuming

19:38

to nudge and remind ourselves over

19:40

and over and over again that.

19:42

we need to pull towards the process

19:44

because we're just trying to keep those

19:46

outcomes from overtaking and constraining us.

19:48

So this is why again, when

19:50

you look at coaches, they say

19:52

always focus on the process, the

19:54

not outlining that process. It's not

19:56

that we expect everyone to be

19:58

100% process oriented. but we need

20:01

those reminders. So when your life,

20:03

you know, you might not have

20:05

an athletic coach, but what you

20:07

can do is set your environment

20:09

up to remind you what is

20:11

important to define what that process

20:13

is, to define what success means,

20:15

and have those things that, again,

20:17

they're not going to pull you

20:19

all the way, but they nudged

20:22

us back to maybe a middle

20:24

ground. where outcomes aren't all consuming.

20:26

So I do this in my

20:28

writing life, right? Because as you

20:30

know, you write the book and

20:32

then you want to sell as

20:34

many copies as possible and you

20:36

want to get on all these

20:38

lists that tell you you're great

20:41

and blah blah, and they are

20:43

nice. And they do better to

20:45

agree, right? It helps your credibility

20:47

if you say I'm a best-selling

20:49

author and all that stuff. But

20:51

what I try and do is

20:53

I know my mind's going to

20:55

go there. So I write down.

20:57

What is my purpose in writing

21:00

this book? How would I define

21:02

success in getting this book out

21:04

there? What are the steps, the

21:06

process I'm going to take on

21:08

the week to week, on the

21:10

day to day, to give myself

21:12

the best shot? And for me,

21:14

it's pretty simple. I write the

21:16

books to help people. So the

21:19

number one thing is I want

21:21

them to be read. And then

21:23

I want them to be shared

21:25

because people say, oh, they read

21:27

it. They say, that's pretty valuable.

21:29

I'm going to share this with

21:31

someone who needs it. How do

21:33

I get the most books read?

21:35

I go through my process, which

21:37

is, you know, nowadays, it's talking

21:40

to folks like you, Ryan. who

21:42

are smart, intelligent, and have a

21:44

podcast where we can go deep

21:46

on this stuff. It's maybe writing

21:48

articles so that I can get

21:50

other people in. It's doing things

21:52

like, hey, I need some good

21:54

social media content to share to

21:56

entice people to read. It's going

21:59

through those process things where it's

22:01

like, I might get, you know,

22:03

five people to read from it

22:05

or a thousand. But, like, these

22:07

steps are going to help more

22:09

people get to the goal of

22:11

reading the book and then hopefully

22:13

sharing it if it's good. Let's

22:15

zoom out for a second with

22:18

that exact thing though, Steve. So,

22:20

not many people write books. How

22:22

about just for your life? Do

22:24

you have a defined purpose? How

22:26

do you define success? Let's get

22:28

personal for a second. And so

22:30

for you in your life, I

22:32

know you're a new dad, you're

22:34

a husband, and so I would

22:36

imagine that, I know that changes

22:39

things from that shift from not

22:41

being a dad to being one,

22:43

but I don't want to answer

22:45

for you. So if you think

22:47

about your overall purpose in life.

22:49

how you define success and then

22:51

maybe what's some of the process

22:53

that you have put in place

22:55

to ensure that you're living within

22:58

your purpose and your living life

23:00

in accordance to your definition of

23:02

success not societies. Yeah so I

23:04

think here and this is where

23:06

it's really important is and I

23:08

talk about this in the book

23:10

a little bit is success can

23:12

be multi definitional and multi-dimensional. I

23:14

think too often we narrow it

23:17

and when we narrow we constrain.

23:19

So when I look at my

23:21

own life, I have multiple kind

23:23

of definitions of success and there's

23:25

different seasons of life where I'm

23:27

more focused on one or the

23:29

other. So for example, in my

23:31

own life you mentioned, you know,

23:33

your dad married. is to be

23:35

there for my family. I have

23:38

this idea of the father I

23:40

want to be, the husband I

23:42

want to be, and what that

23:44

entails. And a lot of that

23:46

is like, you know, quality time.

23:48

It's, you know, it's doing interesting

23:50

things with with my family. It's

23:52

being a good role model for

23:54

my kids and allowing them to

23:57

kind of explore their interests and

23:59

giving them the life where they

24:01

get to explore their interests as

24:03

well and supporting them in them.

24:05

So I want to make sure

24:07

that I have that space. And

24:09

what that means, and that sometimes

24:11

contrasts with my workspace, is that

24:13

I need to set aside the

24:16

time, you know, each week, each

24:18

day to be able to do

24:20

that, right? I can't, as I

24:22

maybe did 10 years ago, be

24:24

like, you know what, if I

24:26

feel good and I want to

24:28

work from, you know, 9 a.m.

24:30

to 10 p.m. I can't. It

24:32

butts up against my goal. And

24:35

then we look at my kind

24:37

of what I call work or

24:39

intellectual pursuits. My goal and how

24:41

I define success is this is

24:43

my goal is to explore interesting

24:45

ideas that I think will help

24:47

people. Those often start with interesting

24:49

ideas that have or will help

24:51

me because I think every book

24:53

we write, every big project we

24:56

do has to have a personal

24:58

kind of tent to it. because

25:00

that's kind of sustained me because

25:02

that's the curiosity allows me to

25:04

figure it out. So that's my

25:06

goal in my work life. That's

25:08

the the factor I use to

25:10

decide what project to explore next

25:12

because I say, hey, is this

25:15

going to help people? Is this

25:17

interesting? Often I go down this

25:19

rabbit hole and I talk about

25:21

this in the book where I

25:23

go on a deep exploration where

25:25

I'm reading research, talking to people,

25:27

doing things, trying things out, coaching

25:29

people on things, deep exploration, before

25:31

I get to, okay, I'm gonna

25:34

turn this into something, because we

25:36

need that exploration to fuel things.

25:38

And that's really important. So I

25:40

set my, we go from, okay,

25:42

that's my work stuff. How do

25:44

I set my life around that?

25:46

Well, different seasons of the time.

25:48

But I have processes where in

25:50

my day-to-day life where I'm saying,

25:52

okay, here's some time set aside

25:55

for deep work, where I'm going

25:57

to take that exploration and turn

25:59

it into, you know, something meaningful.

26:01

But I also have periods where I say,

26:03

hey, this is, I call it down the

26:05

rabbit hole days, but essentially

26:07

it's my play, it's my exploration.

26:10

I say, hey, I still want to be surprised,

26:12

I want to go down the rabbit

26:14

hole on these different ideas and see

26:16

where it takes me, and I may

26:19

never use it for anything. So I

26:21

just go explore an idea and

26:23

having these different periods where I'm

26:25

like, this is the process. And

26:27

eventually that process often leads to

26:30

a book or something else because

26:32

I spent enough time doing it.

26:34

But I don't set up saying,

26:36

hey, you know, this topic is

26:39

popular nowadays. I'm going to

26:41

write a book on this

26:43

topic because it's popular and

26:45

we'll probably sell. No, I go through

26:47

the exploration first with my process

26:49

until it gets to a point

26:51

where it's like, oh yeah, I

26:53

need to write this book. Yeah,

26:55

you know, it's funny. Let's say you

26:57

hit a list when you write a

26:59

book I remember I was With my

27:01

family skiing in Colorado on

27:04

spring break last year and

27:06

our book hit USA Today

27:08

national best-seller list and I

27:10

remember just being surprised I was

27:12

more excited about just going

27:14

on the next Run with my

27:16

family. I mean I was temporarily like

27:18

oh, this is cool, but I thought

27:20

it would be way cooler I thought

27:23

it would be like this amazing celebratory

27:25

thing. I showed it to my wife.

27:27

She's like, oh, that's awesome. Congrats. And,

27:29

you know, we talked about it for

27:31

like 15 seconds. And then we

27:33

went back to skiing and never talked

27:36

about it again. And it, I don't

27:38

know, man, it's just funny how sometimes

27:40

the external things you think are going

27:43

to be this amazing feeling until

27:45

you realize. They're not it

27:47

didn't really matter at all. I guess it's

27:49

good for credibility and maybe it helps out

27:51

more and maybe it will help with speaking

27:53

gig I don't know maybe not But they

27:56

don't necessarily give you the feeling at

27:58

least in my experience that may you

28:00

thought they would prior to achieving

28:02

them? I'd agree completely. And this

28:04

is something you hear often in

28:07

high performers and athletes and whoever

28:09

have you is they think winning

28:11

the big game, making the Olympics,

28:13

whatever is going to be this

28:16

huge life-changing thing and it has

28:18

an impact, but it never feels

28:20

like you think it is like

28:22

you think it is. Right? You

28:25

build it up in your mind

28:27

and you're thinking, this is it.

28:29

And then there's, that's why there's

28:31

in the Olympics in the research,

28:34

they call it like the post

28:36

Olympic depression. Yeah. Because you realize

28:38

you spent four years going to

28:40

this thing and you expected this

28:43

feeling a sensation and don't get

28:45

me wrong, it's great. But you're

28:47

kind of left wondering like, okay,

28:50

that that wasn't quite what I

28:52

thought. What do I, what do

28:54

I do? What do I do

28:56

now? And I think this is

28:59

where it's that external versus internal,

29:01

where it's also like, you know,

29:03

your example is great because if

29:05

you have the internal there, where

29:08

you realize, you know what, I'm

29:10

just, I'm skiing with my family.

29:12

Yeah. That kind of grounds you

29:14

back to it, right? It's like,

29:17

I'm exploring interesting ideas. Like, I'm

29:19

gonna go read, read a good

29:21

book. I'm gonna go. play with

29:23

my kid because like this is

29:26

that time and it keeps you

29:28

from kind of losing your mind

29:30

on this chase because I'll tell

29:33

you what if you keep expecting

29:35

that external to fill that void

29:37

eventually it's gonna make you lose

29:39

your mind on the chase. Yeah

29:42

you you write about and I

29:44

believe you you cited a scientist

29:46

you could name them but you

29:48

said to have a meaningful life

29:51

we need to feel four things.

29:53

coherent, significant, directed, and belonging. And

29:55

so coherent is like life adds

29:57

up. you have this cohesive story,

30:00

significant is you matter and can

30:02

make a difference. Directed, there's a

30:04

purpose to your life in pursuits

30:07

and belonging is we're part of

30:09

something bigger than you. Can you

30:11

go deeper on to these four

30:13

things that we need to have

30:16

to have a meaningful life and

30:18

perhaps some of the science behind

30:20

it? Yeah, absolutely. So this was

30:22

a paradigm put together by Tatiana

30:25

Schnell, I believe, and What she

30:27

found and what subsequent research finds

30:29

is that, you know, these things

30:31

are kind of our basic psychological

30:34

needs. And when we don't have

30:36

them, our brain kind of goes

30:38

into like alarm or freak out

30:40

or threat mode because we don't

30:43

have these these pillars. So we

30:45

go on this, this almost journey.

30:47

I call it like you get

30:50

hungry, right? And if you're super

30:52

hungry. What do you do? You

30:54

often look for the like cheap

30:56

candy to fill that void, but

30:59

it's never fulfilling, right? It's the

31:01

same thing with their psychological needs

31:03

and whether we like, you know,

31:05

Schnell's or others, there's litany of

31:08

research that tells us, but these

31:10

four things I love this paradigm,

31:12

so that's why I included is,

31:14

is coherence is this. Is we

31:17

all tell ourselves a story, right?

31:19

We have this inner narrative. to

31:21

make sense of ourselves. And it

31:23

integrates what happened in the past,

31:26

where we are right now, and

31:28

maybe even where we're going. And

31:30

it integrates the good things, the

31:33

bad things, the things we did

31:35

wrong, things we did right. And

31:37

if we're coherent, it makes sense.

31:39

Our story kind of flows. If

31:42

we're discombobulated and not coherent, then

31:44

our sense of self feels disjointed.

31:46

And when we feel disjointed, our

31:48

resilience drops, our productivity drops, and

31:51

our sense that the world is

31:53

threatening goes up. So we need

31:55

to make sense of ourselves. Significance,

31:57

as you said, is, you know,

32:00

I like to tie it into

32:02

the research on status, which a

32:04

lot of times people think of

32:06

status as like, oh, I'm king

32:09

of the mountain. But what research

32:11

tells us is that we can

32:13

obtain status through multiple dimensions. One

32:16

is the old school, you know,

32:18

king of the mountain dominance, right?

32:20

I'm better than you at things.

32:22

It's, you know, hierarchy in our.

32:25

chimpanzee or ape cousins, right? Who's

32:27

on top? But we also get

32:29

status through prestige and virtue. And

32:31

those are basically, you know, are

32:33

you showing you're a good person, a

32:36

decent person, someone that they can

32:38

rely on? Are you doing things

32:40

that are meaningful and helpful in

32:43

the world? And wherever we get

32:45

that status, it gives us

32:47

this degree of significance, meaning

32:49

you know, I matter and

32:51

I think this is important

32:53

because nowadays our world is

32:55

increasingly makes us feel like

32:57

we don't matter. And part of

33:00

that is that we live in

33:02

a global world where it's really

33:04

hard to feel significant because, you

33:06

know, you or I can go

33:08

online. and we can find dozens of

33:10

people probably who do the same thing

33:12

and in our mind we could say

33:15

oh they do it better than us

33:17

like we're not that good at at

33:19

the thing that we're trying to do

33:21

where a hundred years ago you know

33:24

if you were the best writer in

33:26

your you know city or neighborhood or

33:28

what have you you felt pretty good

33:31

because you couldn't compare yourself to everybody

33:33

in the freaking world so So I

33:35

think like the significance is harder to

33:37

get, but it's important. And then

33:39

that direction is, it's having a

33:42

purpose, it's seeing a future, it's

33:44

having hope. And we need, we need

33:46

paths. And if we have multiple paths

33:48

or different paths for direction, then

33:51

we tend to live a happier,

33:53

healthier life. And I think too

33:55

often, again, modern world has kind

33:57

of narrowed our paths and said,

34:00

this is the only definition of

34:02

success, this is the only way

34:04

forward, when we know there's multiple

34:06

and then the last, but I

34:08

think probably the most important, especially

34:10

in our modern world is that

34:12

belonging, that sense that it's, you

34:15

know, there's something bigger in the

34:17

world that you're connected to more

34:19

than, you know, just yourself that

34:21

we have community and connection. And

34:23

again, I'd argue that the modern

34:25

world. often makes us feel

34:27

even though we're hyper connected,

34:29

we can connect or follow

34:32

whoever, we kind of miss out.

34:34

We don't have that deep sense

34:36

of genuine belonging. And what research

34:38

tells us, and it makes sense,

34:40

is that, you know, think back

34:42

to when we were on the

34:44

savanna or in a tribe, if

34:46

we had or others around us,

34:48

then we had the security to

34:50

go explore. to hunt, to gather,

34:52

to do things because we know

34:55

we had the community behind us.

34:57

If we were caught on the

34:59

Savannah alone, it often meant

35:01

danger and possibly death. We

35:03

are built to belong and being

35:06

part of a community sends the

35:08

safety signal that allows us to

35:10

get more out of ourselves. And

35:13

I think we've kind of, you

35:15

know, eliminated or downplayed that and

35:18

it's hurt us, you know, societally.

35:20

It's definitely the

35:23

commonality of sustainable

35:25

excellence is Those people

35:27

are really good about

35:29

surrounding themselves with Anthony

35:31

Palmpliano might call

35:34

them compounders or people

35:36

that will be there for you

35:38

support you lift you up push

35:40

you nudge you right make you

35:42

want to strive for something bigger.

35:45

Those are the friends of my

35:47

life that Man, I love them. You

35:49

know, they're there when it's tough, they got

35:51

your back, but they're also there

35:53

next to you celebrating when it goes

35:55

well, and they're there to say, hey

35:57

dude, I think you got a little bit more.

36:00

a little bit more. They should be

36:02

aiming a little higher, then you

36:04

go bigger and those people are

36:06

goal. I try to be the

36:08

same for them, but this idea

36:11

that we can do it alone

36:13

or that like it's its weakness

36:15

to need others is lame. It

36:17

makes no sense. It's not a

36:19

commonality among excellent leaders. In fact,

36:22

it's the opposite. The excellent leaders

36:24

are really good about surrounding themselves

36:26

with other excellent people. Yeah, there's

36:28

some fascinating research. I love this

36:30

topic and you're you're spoke on

36:33

there's fascinating research that has found

36:35

in psychology that we share the

36:37

load. So part of our emotional

36:39

regulation system is dependent on those

36:41

others meaning when we lose we

36:44

bounce back better when we have

36:46

friends and colleagues around us literally

36:48

our biology will change our testosterone

36:50

and cortisol will differ. If we

36:52

suffer defeat alone and keep isolated,

36:55

versus if we are around others,

36:57

whether we bounce back after that

36:59

loss, you mentioned sometimes you need

37:01

that person to tell you you're

37:03

capable of more. Research tells us

37:06

that if a friend tells us,

37:08

hey, you sucked at that game,

37:10

you should have done X, Y,

37:12

and Z better, if a stranger

37:14

does it, our cortisol goes through

37:16

the roof. If a friend does

37:19

it, guess what? We don't have

37:21

an increase in cortisol. We have

37:23

an increase in testosterone because our

37:25

body is priming us saying, this

37:27

is someone who cares about us,

37:30

telling us we can do better.

37:32

I'm going to be engaged. That's

37:34

why testosterone fuels some of that

37:36

motivation internally. You can get back

37:38

on the horse and do it

37:41

again. And the other thing I'd

37:43

say about belonging and I outlined

37:45

this in the book because there's

37:47

crazy stuff is that. When we

37:49

have others around us that support

37:52

us, it literally changes our perception

37:54

of how difficult things are. Researchers

37:56

took a bunch of athletes, stuck

37:58

them at the. bottom of a

38:00

really steep hill. And when you're

38:03

alone, you judge the hill to be

38:05

super steep and you say, no man,

38:07

I don't want to run up that

38:09

thing, that would hurt. When you're with

38:11

others, you literally judged the

38:13

hill to be 10 degrees or

38:16

about that shallower. And people say, let's

38:18

go up it. I know it'll be

38:20

hard, but let's take on the

38:22

challenge. They've run similar studies with

38:25

lifting heavy boxes and weights and

38:27

you know running a far distance

38:29

we always when we're with others

38:32

who support us we always judge

38:34

the task to be a little

38:36

bit easier it changes our perception

38:38

and that shifted perception changes our

38:41

performance for the better. Wow I

38:43

love having the research back that

38:45

up but just another reminder of

38:48

how important it is for us

38:50

to surround ourselves with people that

38:52

high character a high get after

38:55

it attitude or at least people

38:57

that we think will help nudge

38:59

us forward and then we do

39:02

the same for them. You've written

39:04

that this may sound obvious but

39:07

I want to go deeper on

39:09

it is is that it's a

39:11

mistake to make success

39:14

and failure a virtue. Yeah,

39:16

so what it does is

39:18

it puts us in that

39:20

protective mode. So when we

39:22

make success or failure

39:25

of virtue, it becomes

39:27

self defining. There is

39:30

a fascinating historical research

39:32

that found that essentially

39:35

up until the 17, 1800s,

39:38

saying, I am a

39:40

failure, was relatively rare.

39:42

We generally said, I failed

39:44

at this thing. Right? If

39:46

you go all the way back to

39:48

ancient Romans, ancient Greeks, what did they

39:50

do? They didn't say like, I failed

39:52

at, you know, growing these crops. They

39:55

said, oh, you know, the god of

39:57

crops or whatever, you know, caused this

39:59

to go. awry. And the reason

40:01

we did that for a long

40:03

time is yes, it is a

40:06

little justifying, but it protects us

40:08

so that we could go then

40:10

try and grow crops again. This

40:12

researcher found that that all changed

40:15

in the 1800s with the bank

40:17

credit system is banks essentially had

40:19

to define who to lend money

40:22

to. So they started saying this

40:24

person is a good for nothing.

40:26

They were not going to be

40:28

able to pay back that loan.

40:31

And since then, we started to

40:33

define our pursuits of success, failure

40:35

in different avenues and jobs as

40:38

self-defining. And when we did that,

40:40

what happens is now our job.

40:42

becomes if we succeed, it's not

40:45

just, you know, we did good

40:47

or bad at this thing, it

40:49

becomes a representation of us. And

40:51

what all sorts of psychology literature

40:54

tells us is that when it

40:56

is us on the line, not

40:58

surprisingly, it often puts us in

41:01

this fear or threat mode, the

41:03

survival mode where it's like, oh

41:05

my God, if I lose this

41:08

game, I'm a failure. people are

41:10

going to think less of me.

41:12

I'm not good at what I,

41:14

you know, I'm not a good

41:17

person or a productive person or

41:19

what have you. And your body

41:21

complies. It says, you know what?

41:24

If my sense of self is

41:26

on the line, I'm going to

41:28

make you feel stress, anxiety, more

41:31

cortisol, less testosterone, less adrenaline, we're

41:33

going to feel that stress. Now

41:35

there are exceptions, but those exceptions

41:37

are way rare. then anybody thinks,

41:40

you know, most of us are

41:42

not Michael Jordan, even the best

41:44

of the best athletes. And the

41:47

representation I give to demonstrate this

41:49

is, this is at the heart

41:51

of choking and sport. So when

41:53

you see people get the yips

41:56

or just melt down on the

41:58

highest stage, you gotta remember, these.

42:00

are athletes who are professional who

42:03

have trained at the highest level

42:05

who have a degree of resilience

42:07

and toughness that is often, you

42:09

know, insane. They've made it,

42:11

but they still choke. And the

42:14

reason is their brain defaults

42:16

because defaults to the survival

42:18

of threat mode because it

42:20

says for whatever reason that

42:22

it determines, oh my gosh, I am

42:24

on the line here. And it's almost

42:27

like the the animal playing dead.

42:29

right? It says, I can't take

42:31

on the lion, so I'm just

42:33

gonna faint. That's what our brain

42:35

does where when our sense of self

42:37

on is on the line. It treats

42:40

us as if our life is on

42:42

the line. So what's the best thing

42:44

to do? It's not to run towards

42:46

the thing. It's to faint, play dead

42:48

or, you know, scurry up the tree

42:51

to try and survive. Is that

42:53

what happened to Simone Biles

42:55

years ago? Absolutely. So what

42:57

you find and again the

43:00

research is young on this

43:02

but it's fascinating is that

43:04

for whatever reason something

43:07

clicks and the athlete

43:09

internalizes that

43:11

this pressure means that like I

43:14

am on the line if I

43:16

don't make this like my sense

43:19

of self is destroyed and the

43:21

body literally disconnects. We call it

43:23

in psychology, we call it a

43:26

perception action, uncoupling. So generally, think

43:28

of it like this. So Mobile's,

43:30

she goes and does her twirls

43:33

and twists and all that stuff,

43:35

and she's an expert. Her body

43:37

knows what to do. She feels when she's

43:40

doing all those twists, believe it or

43:42

not, she knows where she is in

43:44

the air, right, because she's a pro

43:46

at it. When this choking occurs, the

43:48

threat takes over, your body disconnects

43:50

perception and action. So when she

43:53

experienced those twisties, the reason it

43:55

was so dangerous, she went up and

43:57

did those twirls and twists. And

44:00

she didn't know where the ground

44:02

was or where her body is

44:04

because her body kind of checked

44:06

out and played dead. It's the

44:08

same reason that if you see,

44:10

you know, baseball players like Rick

44:12

and Kiel who lost the ability

44:14

to throw, you know, to hold

44:16

plate or Chuck Noblock who could

44:18

no longer throw from second base

44:20

to first base, even though he's

44:23

been doing that for decades at

44:25

a high level. It's almost like

44:27

we transport back to. when we

44:29

first learned how to throw a

44:31

ball where we didn't have that

44:33

alignment with perception and action. And

44:35

the reason that occurs is because

44:37

that threat feels so real that

44:39

your brain essentially goes, forget it

44:41

man, protect means faint, disconnect perception

44:43

and action. How do we overcome

44:45

that if that happens to us

44:47

on? in different levels. Like maybe

44:49

you could use real life examples

44:52

instead of a pro baseball player

44:54

or the greatest gymnast maybe ever

44:56

or one of them at least.

44:58

What about for the everyday person

45:00

who faces their version of the

45:02

yips, whatever that might be, and

45:04

what do we do to overcome

45:06

that? Yeah, so first off, I

45:08

think it comes down to what

45:10

we're talking about is the external

45:12

versus internal on how we define

45:14

success is generally when that happens

45:16

we swayed all the way to

45:18

the external and our definition of

45:21

success has essentially become impossible. So

45:23

of course our brains gonna shut

45:25

down. So what it means and

45:27

Simone Biles actually talked about this

45:29

during this Olympics, not to use

45:31

their example, but she talked about

45:33

how she had to get back

45:35

to how she defined success when

45:37

she started when she started success

45:39

when she started. which was more

45:41

of play, exploration, I want to

45:43

compete, but I'm, you know, I'm

45:45

just trying to see what I

45:47

can do versus make others happy,

45:50

satisfy others, right? Same applies to

45:52

us in our life. We've got

45:54

to do the work to redefine

45:56

what it matters, reorientate instead of

45:58

letting this outcome take over everything.

46:00

part of it is I kind

46:02

of simplify it and I call

46:04

it like do something that

46:07

shifts your or changes your

46:09

perspective or simpler like do

46:11

something crazy which means this is

46:13

often you know that we get

46:16

stuck in this rut so our

46:18

brain is predictive so when

46:20

we get stuck in the rut And

46:23

let's say we're going to work

46:25

and we're trying to nail this

46:27

presentation, but we just every time

46:29

we get up to give it, like

46:31

anxiety takes over and we just

46:34

forget everything, right? What happens is

46:36

our brain learns, okay, when we

46:38

go up and give a presentation,

46:40

it's time to be in threat mode,

46:43

forget everything. It becomes a

46:45

self-fulfilling prophecy. So what we

46:48

have to do is. get out of that

46:50

rut and nudge us out of that

46:52

rut, which often means doing something

46:54

to like intentionally shift our

46:57

perspective. So example, if I'm

46:59

giving a speech and I

47:02

always struggle at it, instead

47:04

of like memorizing the speech

47:06

and saying, this is what I'm

47:08

doing, you start off your speech

47:10

by saying, hey, I really struggle

47:12

at this. I've choked the

47:14

last time I've given this, you

47:16

know, this this top. It's just

47:19

how it's going. I'm gonna try

47:21

my best. If you see me

47:23

sweating up here and choking, that's

47:25

what's going on. You'd say that

47:27

to an audience? Absolutely.

47:29

Have you done that before? I

47:31

haven't done that, but I'll tell

47:33

you this. I've done something

47:35

similar. The first time I went

47:38

and talked to NBA team. This is

47:40

early on in my career. a runner

47:42

and a running coach at that time

47:44

and hadn't done anything outside of this.

47:47

And for some reason, the NBA team

47:49

comes and says, hey, Stephen, why don't

47:51

you talk to all of our coaches

47:53

and stuff? And I said, are you sure?

47:56

And they're like, yeah, let's do it. So

47:58

I walk into the, you know, whatever. I'm

48:00

not going to tell you anything

48:02

worthwhile about basketball. If I tried,

48:05

you'd see that I was shit.

48:07

And I stood up and I

48:09

told them, I said, I know

48:12

nothing about basketball. I'm not going

48:14

to tell you anything worthwhile about

48:16

basketball. If I tried, you'd see

48:19

that I was faking it. I

48:21

probably don't even know about elite

48:23

performance as much as you. You

48:26

guys all know more than me.

48:28

I'm just up here because, you

48:30

know, at that time, the GM

48:33

invited me and I'm not gonna

48:35

turn down this spot. And then

48:37

I went into, but here's like

48:40

what I do know. And what

48:42

I'm doing there for me is,

48:44

in that case is, I felt

48:47

the pressure, I felt the anxiety.

48:49

I didn't quite feel like I

48:51

belonged up there. I was imposter

48:54

syndrome. So I reframed it and

48:56

changed the stage or set the

48:59

stage in a different manner where

49:01

my brain goes like, all right,

49:03

like, you know, I guess we'll

49:06

lower the bar here a little

49:08

bit and take a different tactic.

49:10

And that allowed me to, I

49:13

think, have a pretty good presentation.

49:15

Do you think though that could

49:17

hurt because the audience may... Be

49:20

wondering why is this guy up here

49:22

then like what are we doing? Should

49:25

I even pay attention to this guy?

49:27

Like do you think that could hurt

49:29

you? Starting like that. Absolutely, but I

49:31

think what it is and this is

49:34

where the nuances is it's got to

49:36

be genuine to it. There was another

49:38

time again early on my career for

49:40

some God unknown reason the the entire

49:43

governance strength and conditioning governing body for

49:45

the United Kingdom invited me to talk

49:47

and me to talk and If you

49:49

look at me, you're looking at me,

49:51

right? I'm 5, 10, 140 pounds, like,

49:54

and I'm standing in front of all

49:56

these dudes who are just, and ladies

49:58

who can. lift a hell of a

50:00

lot more than I ever could in

50:03

that environment, you know, I

50:05

remember standing up there and be like,

50:07

everybody in this room can lift

50:09

more than me. I'm not, I'm not here

50:12

to tell you about that, you know,

50:14

you're not going to learn anything about

50:16

me about that, but here's what I

50:18

am going to and it was genuine.

50:20

And I think that is the key.

50:23

You're not going to use that in

50:25

situations where people bring you in and

50:27

they're like, you know, on you know,

50:29

striving, like we're going to come bring

50:31

them in for striving. If I say,

50:33

hey, I don't know anything about striving,

50:35

that's kind of backfire because that's their

50:37

expectation is they're going to learn from

50:40

me about it. So I think you

50:42

have to be, again, intentional on how

50:44

you're using these tactics, but sometimes like

50:46

doing things to shift that perspective are

50:48

really important. I'll give you one more

50:50

example before we move on from this

50:52

that I think is important as when

50:54

I was coaching an athlete a runner

50:56

who was struggling for this. Right,

50:58

they'd get through halfway in the

51:01

race and they'd look great and

51:03

then just, just, it would just,

51:05

you could tell in their eyes, they

51:07

had more, but their brain was

51:10

going to doom loop, right? So what

51:12

we did is I said, you know what?

51:14

Forget it. Right, your goal is

51:16

this. I want you to be with

51:18

the lead pack at halfway. If

51:20

you blow up, great. I want you

51:22

to blow up and fall apart.

51:25

And what you're doing there is giving

51:27

them permission to, it's okay if I

51:29

blow up. But as long as I put

51:31

myself in position, that's what mattered. And

51:33

guess what? They put themselves in position

51:36

and held on pretty good because they

51:38

weren't worried about blowing up anymore. So

51:40

I think there's all sorts of these

51:42

kind of like reframing or shifting techniques

51:45

where if you're in that right, we

51:47

need to find some way to shift

51:49

you out of that perspective to give

51:51

you their permission to to see what

51:54

you're capable of. It's funny to see what

51:56

happens. I coach the girls like football

51:58

team and an all boys. league this

52:00

year and our girls were tough they were

52:02

awesome and we ended up winning the whole

52:04

thing but we had one one girl on

52:07

our team who was scared to carry the

52:09

ball but we wanted everybody to get a

52:11

chance carry the ball the boys are kind

52:13

of big and strong and fast but we

52:15

were too and I said listen you're getting

52:17

the ball this play no matter what and

52:20

I don't care what happens I don't care

52:22

if they grab your flag in the back

52:24

field I don't care whatever happens I just

52:26

want you the second you get the second

52:29

you get the and do whatever you can. Do

52:31

they get your flag? They get your flag? Maybe

52:33

you'll run in the end zone. Who knows what

52:35

happens? And this girl got the ball and absolutely

52:38

took off as fast as she could. And all

52:40

of her teammates knew she did not want to

52:42

get the ball. Like they all knew. And she

52:44

takes it and goes and scores you know, like

52:47

40 yard touchdown run. And her team goes bananas.

52:49

And the look on her face was like. It

52:51

was like a life-changing moment, man, because

52:53

someone who goes from, I don't

52:55

want to do this, I'm scared

52:57

to death, it's easier to not carry the

53:00

ball, I don't want to be embarrassed to

53:02

then this belief, this self-belief of

53:04

like, I can do it. And

53:06

sometimes you need others, sometimes you

53:08

need teammates, and sometimes your self-talk

53:11

is just... not accurate. It's not right

53:13

and I think those stories are useful

53:15

because like we all can draw from

53:17

moments like that whether it happens to

53:19

us or happens to other people and

53:21

that's why I think it's useful that

53:23

you you talk about this stuff so

53:25

much and how you could implement it

53:28

whether you're learning from somebody else or

53:30

for yourself into your own life. Yeah

53:32

you know your story I love that coaching

53:34

I'm gonna hire you as a coach because

53:36

that's brilliant but it reminds me of you

53:39

know some of the research and practice of

53:41

what I've seen with elite field goal kickers

53:43

in NFL so if you look at the

53:45

research and you talk to them if someone's

53:47

struggling you know what they tell you to do

53:50

is the exact same thing that you just did

53:52

there which is you simplified and gave like

53:54

one specific direction literally the

53:56

research tells you struggling NFL kicker

53:58

what do you do or starting

54:00

kicker, what do you do? You

54:02

tell them, pick a point between

54:04

the upright, focus on that, kick

54:06

the ball there. And what happens

54:08

in the reason this works is

54:10

because stress, pressure, anxiety, feeling over

54:12

threat, it tends, it tells our

54:14

brain to go haywire. We start

54:16

ruminating, catastrophizing, thinking if this goes

54:19

wrong, if that goes wrong, what

54:21

do I do if I do

54:23

this? You know, the crowds doing,

54:25

making me go nuts, all this

54:27

stuff. when we narrow in on

54:29

one precise thing and say, this

54:31

is it, just for a moment,

54:33

our brain says, okay, I'll tune

54:35

the rest out and just focus

54:37

on this. And it's almost like

54:39

we get tunnel vision and it

54:41

allows us to perform in situations

54:43

where often, you know, it feels

54:45

overwhelming. One of the phrase I

54:47

used Steve when I would be

54:49

scared as a quarterback, especially in

54:51

my like freshman sophomore year when

54:53

I'm young and their older guys,

54:55

and I felt like intimidated by

54:57

them, this simple phrase, execute my

54:59

job. Execute, there's, you know, there's

55:01

22 guys on the field, I'm

55:03

like, oh, all this crazy stuff,

55:05

execute my. job and I know

55:07

what my job is I know

55:09

what I'm supposed to do and

55:11

so it's just execute my job

55:13

and that had this like calming

55:16

feeling to myself of this self-talk

55:18

of like I can execute my

55:20

job I can do that like

55:22

I know I know my read

55:24

I know what I know I'm

55:26

supposed to do here and then

55:28

I've just this that that little

55:30

focus on narrowing I love how

55:32

you put it narrowing the focus

55:34

almost just frees you up to

55:36

then let it rip versus thinking

55:38

about 22 people and all the

55:40

craziness and the chaos is like

55:42

execute my job. I know what

55:44

I'm supposed to do and then

55:46

just let it rip. And I

55:48

feel like that could be applied

55:50

in all areas of life. It

55:52

does because again, stress causes go

55:54

crazy. You know, one of the

55:56

tools that I learned early on,

55:58

I used this in speaking, but

56:00

I learned it from running as,

56:02

as you can see with the

56:04

audience who can't, I wear glasses.

56:06

I can still see kind of,

56:08

but not very well. When I

56:10

started to feel the pressure, when

56:13

I started getting good at running,

56:15

I decided, you know what, for

56:17

certain raises, I'm gonna run without

56:19

my glasses. Why? I could see

56:21

my competitor ahead of me, but

56:23

I couldn't see jack shit around

56:25

me, right? And that forced me

56:27

to do what? Narrow my focus.

56:29

I'm gonna stare at the guys

56:31

I'm competing against in front of

56:33

me. forget the crowds, forget anything

56:35

else, forget everything else going on,

56:37

like this is all I can

56:39

literally see. And that's why, you

56:41

know, again, speaking, sometimes I do

56:43

that as well, but this is

56:45

why when you, you know, they

56:47

tell you public speaking. Go focus

56:49

on a couple of individuals who

56:51

seem engaged. Because you narrow your

56:53

focus and you're like, I'm just

56:55

going to talk to this guy

56:57

who's smiling. Go find the head

56:59

nods, right? You know what Steve?

57:01

You find the head nods and

57:03

you look for those eyes. And

57:05

I'm with you, like I'm always

57:07

looking for the head nods and

57:10

find those eyes and find those

57:12

eyes and those are my people.

57:14

It's so funny how that works.

57:16

That's it. But it's the same

57:18

as when you're a quarterback when

57:20

you're a quarterback. What it narrows

57:22

when you're a quarterback. What it

57:24

narrows you're a. I'm going to

57:26

do this, forget all the noise.

57:28

And that's how we perform best.

57:30

I can't believe it's almost been

57:32

an hour. Okay, one more thing

57:34

I want to hit before we

57:36

have to run, man, and that

57:38

is your three-part, you know, I

57:40

love sustainable excellence. You love sustainable

57:42

excellence. We both study it for

57:44

a living. I'm fascinated by people

57:46

who have sustained excellence and you

57:48

have a three-part framework for sustainable

57:50

excellence. B. do and belong. Can

57:52

you go deeper on what it

57:54

means to be, do, and belong?

57:56

Yeah, absolutely. So here's what you

57:58

said. We've talked a lot about

58:00

threat and pressure and survival mode

58:02

and what it takes to perform

58:04

at a high level over the

58:07

long term is essentially what I

58:09

call clarity on yourself, clarity on

58:11

your pursuits, and clarity on where

58:13

you are or how you're connected

58:15

or your belonging. And if we

58:17

can get those things, we were

58:19

a more resilient performer over the

58:21

long haul. So if we look

58:23

at B, what does that mean?

58:25

It means clarity on yourself, meaning

58:27

that again, we talked about intertwining

58:29

yourself in the success and all

58:31

that stuff. We want to be

58:33

a diversified. person who acknowledges that,

58:35

yes, I care about these things,

58:37

but I'm also like complex. Meaning,

58:39

as I said, I'm a father,

58:41

I'm a dad, I'm a writer,

58:43

I'm a runner, I'm all these

58:45

things. And when you have that

58:47

diversity, what it does is it

58:49

gives you the ability to bounce

58:51

back and handle the test spots

58:53

spots. And the other part on

58:55

on being, I think as well,

58:57

is it also centers you on

58:59

What actually matters? Again, too often

59:01

when we get pulled to the

59:04

external, the things we're chasing start

59:06

to, we start to believe that

59:08

they are the thing that matter.

59:10

But you ask anybody in sustainable

59:12

excellence, they'll come back to, you

59:14

know, some insights on how they

59:16

define success. They'll come back to

59:18

values that they have, the things

59:20

that they hold deeply and stand

59:22

for. We've got to know those.

59:24

If we do those. going to

59:26

perform well. And then when we

59:28

look at our pursuits, that doing

59:30

part of it, I think it

59:32

comes down to a lot of

59:34

how we take on the challenges

59:36

that we pursue. We've talked about

59:38

this a lot is that if

59:40

we get stuck in pre-defense, we're

59:42

never going to be able to

59:44

explore our potential. So how do

59:46

we get out of that? We

59:48

give ourselves the freedom to try

59:50

explore, to fail. potentially, because it's

59:52

only in that exploration do we

59:54

learn, A, what we're capable of,

59:56

where we went wrong, how we

59:58

could get better, and again, whether

1:00:01

we want to keep going down

1:00:03

this path. So I think it's

1:00:05

again that complexity of understanding that

1:00:07

our pursuits can have multiple definitions

1:00:09

of success. And the last one

1:00:11

we've touched on a lot is

1:00:13

that belonging and, you know, you just

1:00:15

can't go places without a great

1:00:17

support network, without feeling

1:00:19

that we're connected, without feeling

1:00:22

part of a community. And what

1:00:24

I try to outline in the

1:00:26

book is that A that's essential.

1:00:28

But B, sometimes we fall

1:00:30

for the candy version where we

1:00:32

just try and fit in. And

1:00:34

the difference is this, is

1:00:37

when we belong, we're bringing

1:00:39

our whole selves to the

1:00:41

activity and we're essentially expanding

1:00:44

ourselves or leading to growth of

1:00:46

the group. When we choose fit

1:00:48

in, we're just looking for a

1:00:51

place temporarily to, it's like

1:00:53

middle school. I'm just looking

1:00:55

for a table to sit at. Right?

1:00:57

And that might satisfy you for

1:01:00

a couple days, but we know

1:01:02

from middle school, it feels a

1:01:04

hell of a lot better when

1:01:06

we feel when we find that,

1:01:08

you know, football team or track

1:01:10

team or chess team or math

1:01:13

club, that it's like, these are

1:01:15

my people, man. And that's what

1:01:17

we're looking for is don't,

1:01:19

don't try and just find a

1:01:22

table to sit on. Find your

1:01:24

people who support and challenge you

1:01:26

and that's where your true growth

1:01:28

is going to happen. The new

1:01:30

books called Win. the inside game how

1:01:33

to move from surviving to thriving and

1:01:35

free yourself up to perform Steve you

1:01:37

killed it with this one it is

1:01:40

so good not surprised considering i've read

1:01:42

i read all your stuff with brat

1:01:44

on the growth equation and your previous

1:01:47

books grateful for your friendship and how

1:01:49

generous you've been with sharing all of

1:01:51

your book proposals and notes you probably

1:01:54

don't even remember that you've shared all

1:01:56

that stuff with me but it's been

1:01:58

a massive hell for me as a

1:02:01

writer because I really look up to

1:02:03

how generous you are but then just

1:02:05

how excellent you are as a thinker

1:02:07

and an explorer and a writer so

1:02:10

thank you so much man and I

1:02:12

highly highly encourage people to read win

1:02:14

the inside game it's it's so good

1:02:16

but thanks again man and as always

1:02:19

I'd love to continue our dialogue as

1:02:21

we progress man you got it man

1:02:23

thanks so much for this I appreciate

1:02:25

all your work here you're doing a

1:02:28

great job so keep it going It

1:02:33

is the end of the podcast club. Thank

1:02:35

you for being a member of the end

1:02:37

of the podcast club If you are send

1:02:40

me a note Ryan at learning leader.com Let

1:02:42

me know what you learned from this great

1:02:44

conversation with Steve Magnus a few takeaways from

1:02:46

my notes to live a meaningful life. We

1:02:48

need to feel four things. That's coherent, significant,

1:02:50

directed, and belonging. Coherent means life adds up.

1:02:52

You have a cohesive story. Significant means you

1:02:54

matter and you can make a difference. Directed

1:02:57

mean there's a purpose to your life and

1:02:59

pursuits. And belonging means part of something that

1:03:01

is bigger than you. You're a part of

1:03:03

something that is bigger than you. Then we

1:03:05

talked about clearly defining. Your purpose and what

1:03:07

you want to do for Stevie said it's

1:03:09

quote explore interesting ideas That will help people

1:03:11

and those things will help him too because

1:03:14

he's curious about them And I think that's

1:03:16

useful for all of us defining that one

1:03:18

sentence Will free you up to say no

1:03:20

to things outside of your purpose and then

1:03:22

to narrowly focus on actions that align with

1:03:24

your purpose. Clearly define that and it's freeing.

1:03:26

And then Steve's framework for sustainable excellence. B.

1:03:29

Do belong. Be. Clarity on who you are.

1:03:31

Do. clarity in your

1:03:33

pursuits and belong, clarity

1:03:35

on where and how

1:03:37

you fit in. fit in. So

1:03:39

good. again, I would

1:03:41

say thank you so

1:03:43

much for continuing to

1:03:46

spread the message and

1:03:48

telling the friend or two,

1:03:50

hey, you should listen

1:03:52

to this episode of

1:03:54

The Learning this episode of the

1:03:56

Steve Magnus. I think

1:03:58

he'll help you become

1:04:00

a more effective leader

1:04:03

and because you continue

1:04:05

to do that and

1:04:07

you also go to

1:04:09

Apple also go to and

1:04:11

Spotify and you subscribe

1:04:13

to the show. Very

1:04:15

important. And you write

1:04:17

a thoughtful review and

1:04:20

rate the show, and five

1:04:22

stars by doing all

1:04:24

of that. You give

1:04:26

me the opportunity to

1:04:28

do what I love

1:04:30

on a daily basis

1:04:32

basis that, I will

1:04:34

forever be grateful. Thank

1:04:37

you so, so so much.

1:04:39

to you soon. soon. Can't

1:04:41

wait. wait.