0:00

We executed really well and it

0:03

started to help make a name

0:05

for ourselves. There was definitely some

0:07

risk taking there and I think

0:09

the fear of failure just drove

0:11

that hell out of us to

0:13

make sure that they went right. This

0:18

episode is brought to you

0:21

by Insight Global. Hiring

0:23

the perfect culture, skill and

0:25

team fit isn't magic.

0:27

It's expertise. As a true

0:29

talent and professional services

0:31

partner, Insight Global offers customized

0:33

solutions to help you

0:35

build teams, improve retention and

0:37

drive better business results.

0:40

Go beyond staffing with Insight

0:42

Global. If you'd like

0:44

to learn more, go to

0:46

InsightGlobal .com/Learning Leader. That's InsightGlobal

0:48

.com /Learning Leader.

0:54

Welcome to the Learning Leader Show.

0:56

I am your host, Ryan Hawke.

0:59

Thank you so much for being

1:01

here. Text Hawke to 66866 to

1:03

become part of Mindful Monday. You

1:05

along with tens of thousands of

1:07

other Learning Leaders from all over

1:09

the world will receive a carefully

1:11

curated email from me each Monday

1:14

morning to help you start your

1:16

recall. You'll also receive details about

1:18

how our book The Score That

1:20

Matters will help you become a

1:22

more effective leader. Text Hawke to

1:24

66866. Now on to

1:26

tonight's featured leader, Anthony Consigli

1:29

is a CEO of

1:31

Consigli Construction. Consigli is a

1:33

fourth generation family -led construction

1:35

company founded in 1905

1:37

when Anthony became the CEO

1:40

in 1997. The company

1:42

had 25 employees and did

1:44

about 3 million bucks

1:46

in revenue. As of today,

1:49

they have 2 ,400 employees

1:51

and will do $3 .5

1:53

billion in revenue. It's

1:55

an amazing story of growth,

1:57

innovation, craftsmanship, and the power

1:59

of surrounding yourself with great people. I

2:02

originally met Anthony when he hired

2:04

me to give a keynote speech

2:06

to his leadership team in Boston

2:08

a few months ago. We hit

2:10

it all from there and then

2:12

I asked him if he would

2:14

come on the podcast so we

2:16

could learn more about his story.

2:18

Man, I'm glad we did. A

2:20

few things we talked about what

2:22

you could learn from being a

2:24

gravedigger. Interesting part of this life

2:26

growing up. How has life changed

2:28

from playing football at Harvard? What

2:30

those of us outside of the

2:32

construction world can learn from a

2:34

project manager on a job site.

2:36

There are so many portable leadership

2:38

lessons. Why Anthony has set his

2:40

company up to be employee owned.

2:42

The importance of pushing her edges.

2:44

And then at the end, Anthony

2:46

tells a great story about what

2:48

he learned from a hiking guide

2:50

in Colorado a decade ago. So,

2:52

so good. Ladies and gentlemen, please

2:54

enjoy my conversation with Anthony Kinsigli.

2:59

All right Anthony man, it's so good to

3:01

see you and it's great to have you

3:04

here on the learning leader show welcome man

3:06

Great to see you Ryan. Thank you and

3:08

thank you for having me Of course, of

3:10

course. One of the rare times I got

3:13

to come hang out with you in Boston

3:15

or in outskirts of Boston, talk with your

3:17

team and then now I'll get a chance

3:19

to record because I was fascinated during my

3:22

preparation for that keynote of learning more about

3:24

you and learning more about your company. I

3:26

was really just honored to get a chance

3:28

to be in the room with you guys.

3:31

So, so thank you for that. Well, we

3:33

were honored to have you. It was a

3:35

treat for us. I'm such a big fan

3:37

of the show. And so it was great

3:40

to see you in person. Love it, man.

3:42

Okay, I'm gonna go back in time. You're

3:44

14. You've done something that I've never done

3:46

and I don't know if I've ever spoken

3:49

to somebody who's done and that you were

3:51

a grave digger. You've dug a lot of

3:53

ditches and cemeteries. One, why was that a

3:55

big part of your upbringing and what have

3:58

you learned from your years digging graves? Sure.

4:00

So as a small construction

4:02

business, a big part of our work

4:05

was digging graves for all of

4:07

the local cemeteries. And at the

4:09

time, most of them were by

4:11

hand. And my grandfather always said,

4:13

my father was said, hey, this

4:15

is a recession-proof business. People are

4:17

always going to die. And so

4:20

he did things like that and

4:22

snow plowing, another recession-proof business.

4:24

Those were sort of

4:26

core. things that the company did.

4:28

It was seven and a half feet

4:31

long, four feet deep, about five and

4:33

a half, I'm sorry, four feet wide,

4:35

five and a half feet deep. When

4:37

you would fill 22 wheelbarrows, wheel them

4:39

up a plank onto a truck. That

4:41

was the displacement from the coffin in

4:44

the box that would go on the

4:46

ground. And so, you know, we would

4:48

dig, I don't know, I'm on average.

4:50

three, four, five hundred grades a

4:52

year. When I would do it

4:54

after school, I would do it

4:56

on weekends, summer vacations, and such.

4:58

And it was, I'm not gonna

5:00

lie, it was hard. I mean,

5:02

you know, winter time you're out

5:05

there with a jackhammer to get

5:07

through the frost. It's cold in

5:09

New England. When it's raining and

5:11

whatever, you had to get the

5:13

whole dug. But I would say, as

5:15

miserable as it was at the time,

5:17

I mean, the stories coming out of

5:20

it. Catholic priest at a rectory or

5:22

something. You go down and you map

5:24

it out and at the time, it seems like,

5:26

oh my God, this is a huge feat.

5:28

How am I going to do this

5:30

by myself or with another person?

5:32

But it's just one shovel at

5:34

a time, one wheelbarrel at a

5:37

time, and you just sort of

5:39

keep going. And there's one story. At

5:41

one time, we dug a grave, and

5:43

we dug a grave, and we dug

5:45

a grave, and we dug a grave,

5:47

and the wrong place. that they had

5:49

the funeral today and it's in the

5:51

wrong lot and there might have been

5:53

some yelling and some some F bombs

5:55

dropped in there but the next day

5:57

he brought me down the cemetery we

5:59

marked the grave out in the right

6:01

place and I had to redig

6:03

move the box over and fill the

6:06

hole back in and do this

6:08

all while the family was watching which

6:10

was really embarrassing and I wanted to

6:12

blame the priest for giving me the

6:15

wrong coordinates Catholic Church at the

6:17

time wasn't known for great record keeping

6:19

but that was that's sort of a

6:21

lost cause but in any case grave

6:24

digging taught you to When something

6:26

looks daunting when something looks like oh

6:28

my god, this is a big

6:30

job to just have a process one

6:32

wheelbarrel at a time a foot at

6:35

a time of shovel at a time,

6:37

however you want to break it

6:39

down, and to just follow that process

6:41

and have discipline to it. And it's

6:44

much the same as like we're going

6:46

out and building a really large

6:48

project now. It might look too daunting

6:50

or too challenging. It's just like, hey,

6:53

break this down into little pieces and

6:55

follow a process. I would say

6:57

the other thing that it really taught

6:59

me is that when you make a

7:02

mistake to own it. Screwin' up. I

7:04

needed to own it and that's

7:06

why my father had me go down

7:08

by myself and fix it. Clean

7:10

up your own messes. Grave digging taught

7:13

me a lot of sort of things

7:15

like that. Again, as miserable as it

7:17

was at the time, there was

7:19

great stories that came from it and

7:22

a lot that I learned. And I

7:24

am sure you feel this way as

7:26

a dad, putting your children in

7:28

positions to where they have to do

7:31

things that are both mentally and physically

7:33

taxing. helps better prepare you for the

7:35

future adversity that you're going to

7:37

face. And I'm curious to learn more

7:40

about that, of like how intentional

7:42

was your dad about that, or was

7:44

he just like, hey, this is the

7:46

work that needs to get done. Anthony,

7:49

go do it, you know, go

7:51

dig the grave. Like, how intentional are

7:53

you as a dad of trying to

7:55

put your children in positions to stress

7:58

them physically and mentally to better

8:00

prepare them for what's going to happen?

8:02

in the real world. Yeah, it's interesting.

8:04

I, like, I don't think my dad

8:07

was intentional at all. I think

8:09

it was like, hey, this is the

8:11

way I was brought up and

8:13

you're gonna do it too. And it's

8:15

just, this is, this is what you

8:18

bought in new. And no, I've told

8:20

him over time, my dad to

8:22

me and my brothers is, is, is

8:24

like God. He's the greatest human being

8:27

ever taught us so much. He put

8:29

us in some positions that I

8:31

don't know, you know, you'd get arrested

8:33

today. And so, no, I mean, in

8:36

terms of some of the work that

8:38

we did and some of the

8:40

sacrifices, even when you get into like,

8:42

saying, playing high school sports, it

8:44

was like, it was still work first

8:47

and sports second. It was a, it

8:49

was a bit of a sacrifice when

8:51

you're up. a freshman of sophomore

8:53

in high school and you're playing on

8:56

the varsity for the first time and

8:58

you're running on the field for double

9:00

sessions and you're late and the

9:02

coach is screaming at you and you

9:05

have to explain in front of him

9:07

and the team the funeral was late

9:09

coming in and you had to

9:11

bury a body and that's why you're

9:14

late. It's a bit humbling. So

9:16

there were lots of moments like that

9:18

where again it's not intentional but it

9:20

sort of taught you that sacrifice is

9:23

important. In terms of my own

9:25

kids, like I did, I was much

9:27

more intentional. I didn't have to make

9:29

my kids do that stuff, but I

9:32

did because I wanted them to

9:34

have the same benefit of learning work

9:36

ethic, of sacrifice and what it means,

9:38

and also to be put in challenging

9:41

positions. And so My daughter who

9:43

works for the company now was working

9:45

on construction sites when she was

9:47

in high school, for instance. My son

9:50

joined my daughter on a project we

9:52

were building in Harlem. A renovation of

9:54

a building in Harlem, New York

9:56

City, tough area. When he was in

9:59

high school, he stayed, he lived with

10:01

her down in the city for a

10:03

month, he learned the whole subway

10:05

system for a high school kid to

10:08

be working on a job like that

10:10

and seeing. things in New York City

10:12

that you see is sort of

10:14

a big learning experience. Oh, yeah. Those

10:17

things are so important. You mentioned

10:19

football. And we share that and we've

10:21

had conversations about how impactful that was

10:23

in our lives. And then you get

10:26

to the opportunity because of your

10:28

football skill and your intelligence level, which

10:30

is high enough in college to go

10:32

to Harvard to play. What were some

10:35

of the key learnings you learned

10:37

from both being a student and a

10:39

football player at Harvard? Let me start

10:41

on the student side first. I would

10:44

say going into Harvard, I was

10:46

scary. I come out of a small

10:48

sort of town. I had this

10:50

image of my head in my head

10:52

of either like flame throwing progressives protesting

10:55

every cause on the planet Earth or

10:57

monicle wearing blue blood type. people

10:59

that I just wouldn't fit in with.

11:01

And really what I found was really

11:04

the most diverse student mix I've ever

11:06

seen in my life. I mean,

11:08

it was a kid I played with

11:10

who had been in an L.A. street

11:13

gang. There was another kid who would

11:15

work in a limestone mill in

11:17

western Pennsylvania. At the same time, there

11:19

was a kid who was fifth

11:21

generation Harvard, who was just a nice

11:24

kid. And that surprised me. I sort

11:26

of morphed from a small town meathead

11:28

where my conversation was limited to

11:30

how tough Chuck Norris was or Hal

11:33

Kogan to being able to be a

11:35

lot more open-minded, a lot more curious,

11:37

a lot more conversant on a

11:39

number of things. And I would say

11:42

Harvard gets knocked around a bit, especially

11:44

lately. Liberal arts education gets knocked around

11:46

a bit lately. Liberal arts education

11:48

gets knocked around a bit lately. I'm

11:51

a big believer in it. I took

11:53

a lot of business courses, a lot

11:55

of them I may not have

11:57

gotten a lot from, but then I

12:00

took a course in Nordic mythology

12:02

and What did I learn from that?

12:04

I mean, I, you know, I might

12:06

have taken it because I needed an

12:09

uneasy grade during football season, but

12:11

I came out of there being able

12:13

to tell better stories and understanding rituals

12:15

and culture and symbols and tribalism and

12:18

like I use that stuff to

12:20

this day in my own business. And

12:22

so anyway, it just, it sort of

12:24

changed me a bit. And I met

12:27

the best friends I ever, I

12:29

still have the best friends in my

12:31

life from my days at Harvard.

12:33

So, Anyway, it really changed me into

12:35

a, the person I sort of needed

12:38

to be versus what I went in

12:40

with. How about adding on to

12:42

the fact that you played football there?

12:44

I mean, that was just an awesome

12:47

experience. And, you know, the one thing

12:49

I'll say about football in the

12:51

Ivy League in general is, yes, kids

12:53

are, they might be gifted academically, but

12:56

they play hard. They train hard. Football

12:58

is... real to them. I'm reading

13:00

the John Feinstein book about the ancient

13:02

eight right now and he captures

13:04

it really well. But look, everybody, everybody,

13:07

I say everybody puts their fingers on

13:09

the ground and you go through the

13:11

same hard work, the same preparation,

13:13

the same process. It teaches your resilience,

13:16

it teaches your teamwork, it teaches your

13:18

discipline to a process. You learn how

13:20

to lose. My junior year there,

13:22

we were eight and two when the

13:25

Av League and it was just a

13:27

great experience. And next year we returned

13:29

almost everybody and we went two

13:31

and eight. To this day we still

13:34

talk about, hey how does that

13:36

happen and what happened? And it teaches

13:38

you a lot about life. Eight

13:41

and two to two and eight

13:43

usually the story goes the other

13:45

way We're two and eight our

13:47

guys came together and we work

13:49

hard the next year We won

13:51

the Ivy League and we were

13:53

eight and two so it's for

13:55

have it go the reverse is

13:57

Completely backwards. What happened? How did

13:59

how did this team of obviously

14:01

talented enough to win the conference

14:03

when the league? then completely goes

14:05

the other direction the next year.

14:07

I don't know. We talk about

14:09

it to this day, like the

14:11

talent was there, but we, I

14:13

don't know, you know, look, the

14:15

easy thing to say would be

14:18

that our heads got bloated and

14:20

our egos got in the way,

14:22

but I don't think that was

14:24

it. I think that we had

14:26

a couple games where just things

14:28

didn't go the right way and

14:30

all of a sudden people started

14:32

doubting themselves and we lost confidence.

14:34

And then I think. when things

14:36

started going the wrong way, we

14:38

didn't do anything to correct it.

14:40

We didn't do anything enough, I

14:42

should say, to correct it. But

14:44

to this day, we sort of

14:46

talk about it, me and my

14:48

friends. And what it's helped me

14:50

with is understand, like my own

14:52

company is really just a collection

14:54

of teams. Like we have about

14:56

150 projects at one time. And

14:58

that's really 150 teams. And so

15:00

I think constantly about. How is

15:02

this team made up? Do they

15:04

have the right players? Do they

15:06

have the right leadership? Do they

15:08

have the right team dynamics? Because

15:10

the success of that team is

15:12

going to judge how well or

15:14

how poorly that job goes. And

15:16

that year of going to 2008

15:18

taught me a lot more about

15:20

teamwork than the eight and two

15:22

team did in a lot of

15:24

ways. Well, that leads me to

15:26

the construction world. And as I

15:28

was preparing for our time and

15:30

preparing for my keynote with your

15:32

company, I was trying to learn

15:34

more not only about your company,

15:36

but about your industry, so I

15:38

could try to be somewhat relatable

15:41

because that's not an industry that

15:43

I'm familiar with. And as I

15:45

was digging in talking with you,

15:47

a leader in the construction world

15:49

has an insane job. And you'll

15:51

be better at telling this to

15:53

me, but just the number of

15:55

people and different incentives and different

15:57

priorities that person or those people

15:59

need to gather to build this.

16:01

giant thing is crazy. Can you

16:03

walk through just the sheer responsibility

16:05

of somebody who is a leader

16:07

while trying to build a giant

16:09

apartment complex or a giant building

16:11

in Boston or New York City

16:13

or all over the place where

16:15

you guys build? I just love

16:17

for you to detail the sheer

16:19

amount of responsibility that person has.

16:21

Sure. It's funny to ask that

16:23

because just last week I was

16:25

at some conference and somebody asked

16:27

a question, hey name... the three

16:29

greatest leaders that you know. And

16:31

of course everybody started naming out

16:33

CEOs or military people, politicians, whatever.

16:35

And I started thinking about just

16:37

the people that I worked with.

16:39

And if you take a superintendent

16:41

project manager that might be building

16:43

a building as you said like

16:45

in South Boston or like we

16:47

were building a hospital down in

16:49

US Virgin Islands or say rural

16:51

Maine. That person has to commute

16:53

probably over an hour of the

16:55

job site early morning before most

16:57

people have even gotten up. They're

16:59

overseeing a hundred or three hundred

17:02

five hundred workers coming on the

17:04

job. Most of them, you know,

17:06

probably 30 or 40% will be

17:08

immigrants or maybe even non-English speaking,

17:10

all of them coming from different

17:12

walks of life, socio-economic backgrounds, and

17:14

that person has to align all

17:16

of them on a daily basis

17:18

to to build something that has

17:20

never been built before. It might

17:22

be some unbelievable design by a

17:24

world leading architect or it could

17:26

be a hospital that is going

17:28

to help treat and treat people

17:30

and save lives. But they're doing

17:32

it in the midst of organizing

17:34

thousands of different materials coming from

17:36

all corners of the planet. They're

17:38

doing it without knowing what the

17:40

weather is going to be. what

17:42

the traffic or logistics concerns are

17:44

going to be they'll be doing

17:46

it with some guy with a

17:48

tie on telling him that they're

17:50

over budget and some other person

17:52

telling him that they're behind schedule

17:54

and someone else telling him that

17:56

they need to work safer and

17:58

it's just you got all of

18:00

these voices in your ear telling

18:02

you you need to do better

18:04

better better better better and all

18:06

these different areas and you know

18:08

you gotta you gotta make certainty

18:10

and predictability out of all this

18:12

stuff on a daily basis and

18:14

then you gotta do it all

18:16

over again the next day. Until

18:18

that project is complete. It's a

18:20

really hard job. And that's why

18:22

I think that these guys I

18:25

work with men and women there's

18:27

some of the best leaders I've

18:29

I've ever come across What are

18:31

some of the core? Themes the

18:33

core qualities and actions of those

18:35

project managers superintendents the ones leading

18:37

on job sites leading a bunch

18:39

hundreds and hundreds of different workers

18:41

for them some of them who

18:43

don't speak English Like what are

18:45

some of the commonalities among the

18:47

ones who are the best of

18:49

the best? Obviously we look to

18:51

hire for these things, but the

18:53

best of the best are going

18:55

to, I call it have Godrails,

18:57

right? They have high standards. but

18:59

they know that they have to

19:01

move the Godrails out a bit

19:03

because they're like leading an orchestra

19:05

and not every person is going

19:07

guardrails. Hold on, what's that you

19:09

said? I thought you said Godrails.

19:11

I was like, wait, God? Okay,

19:13

guard, Boston, accent, guardrails, Boston accent.

19:15

I love it. Guardrails? High standards.

19:17

Okay, proceed, sorry. I feel like

19:19

Ben Affleck in the Duncan Donitz

19:21

commercial, but yeah. But look, you're

19:23

leading an orchestra. Not every person

19:25

is going to play exactly the

19:27

way you want to play. You

19:29

have to have some tolerance levels.

19:31

But you've got to hold high

19:33

standards. You've got to have attention

19:35

to detail. You've got to have

19:37

a sense of urgency because everybody's

19:39

trying to create an excuse why

19:41

not to do something. And you

19:43

have to fight your way through.

19:45

You have to have great leadership

19:48

abilities in terms of, you know,

19:50

fighting through problems and keeping people

19:52

aligned. So it's, it's, look, it's

19:54

not that different from the skills

19:56

I learned on the football field.

19:58

A lot of these people have

20:00

them. They have an ability to

20:02

take criticism and not let it

20:04

bother them. is an awesome story.

20:06

It's one of the main reasons

20:08

I wanted to do this. You

20:10

became the CEO in 1997. Is

20:12

that right? Yes. Can you tell

20:14

the history before 1997? What was

20:16

Consigli? What was the business? What

20:18

did you primarily do? How many

20:20

people worked there? What were the

20:22

yearly revenues leading up to 1997

20:24

when you took over? Sure. So

20:26

business was started in 1905 by

20:28

my great-grandfather. He was a stonemason

20:30

who had immigrated from Italy. He

20:32

had six sons. They all had

20:34

a trade. They were all mason

20:36

trades, concrete, bricks, plaster, etc. But

20:38

four of them went to World

20:40

War II, fought in the war.

20:42

My grandfather stayed back here and

20:44

ran the business. at that point.

20:46

But the business stayed small for

20:48

three generations. The average around 20,

20:50

30 people, you know, most we

20:52

did was probably a million dollars

20:54

a year. My father was a

20:56

heavy equipment operator at the same

20:58

time he was running the business.

21:00

And so, you know, I got

21:02

out of Harvard, we was still

21:04

digging graves and plowing snow and

21:06

doing small commercial projects, but, you

21:09

know, it was about, it was

21:11

still about 20, 30 employees. You

21:13

know, and that was the size

21:15

my... you know my grandfather and

21:17

my father wanted to keep it.

21:19

So one you become the CEO

21:21

I'm curious why they chose you

21:23

and why you wanted it and

21:25

then how you you wanted to

21:27

change the business or at minimum

21:29

you wanted to grow the business

21:31

I imagine. So can you talk

21:33

a little bit about that process

21:35

of how you got chosen, why

21:37

you wanted to be the CEO,

21:39

and then what happened next? Some

21:41

of your priorities, how you were

21:43

able to start hypercharging the growth

21:45

into Insigli? Sure. You know, my

21:47

father, I think, always figured that

21:49

I would run the company at

21:51

some point. I had grown up

21:53

in the business and he really

21:55

liked running heavy equipment, but I

21:57

would say that, you know, when

21:59

I came into the business was

22:01

like 1990. And we went through

22:03

a really bad recession and they

22:05

say everybody has their crucible in

22:07

life. This was really my crucible.

22:09

We were in tough shape, like

22:11

we couldn't make payroll, couldn't pay

22:13

our bills. I was 22 years

22:15

old and had just gotten my

22:17

now wife pregnant and there's just

22:19

a lot of stuff going on

22:21

in our extended family that was

22:23

problematic. It was a tough few

22:25

years. And it's, you know, when

22:27

we got through it, you know,

22:29

working hard and scrapping and such,

22:32

but we got to around 1995,

22:34

96, and we sort of stabilized

22:36

and, you know, my father said,

22:38

all right, this is a good

22:40

time to transition. And at the

22:42

same time, my brother, my younger

22:44

brother Matthew had just joined us.

22:46

And I don't think I'll ever

22:48

forget we were, I think it

22:50

was winter time and people were

22:52

out snow plowing, but we had

22:54

to cover a grave. And so

22:56

I think we were down in

22:58

the cemetery and here I am,

23:00

I got a Harvard economics degree,

23:02

I have all these visions of

23:04

what I want to do with

23:06

my life and I'm covering a

23:08

grave and I think the two

23:10

of us looked at each other

23:12

and said, what are we doing?

23:14

And so, I think it was

23:16

about that moment that like, you

23:18

know, we had a conversation with

23:20

my father, At that moment, I

23:22

think, you know, my brother and

23:24

I decided to give up grave

23:26

digging and snow plowing and a

23:28

bunch of the different things. that

23:30

they might have made money, but

23:32

it wasn't what we wanted to

23:34

spend our life doing. And we

23:36

decided to focus on where do

23:38

we want this company to go?

23:40

And so that was sort of

23:42

a real big moment. It was

23:44

big moment for me, big moment

23:46

for the company, I think. So

23:48

what happened next? Because it's one

23:50

thing to say, I don't want

23:52

to be digging graves, I don't

23:55

want to be plowing snow. I

23:57

mean, the recession proof. businesses. I

23:59

understand why you do it because

24:01

in the short term, you're going

24:03

to be able to make payroll,

24:05

you're going to be able to

24:07

make a little bit of money,

24:09

you're going to be able to

24:11

run your business. So I could

24:13

see how it would be hard

24:15

to give up kind of guaranteed

24:17

moneymakers, but That's what you decided

24:19

to do. So how were you

24:21

able to have the confidence and

24:23

the guts to say, we're going

24:25

to go big here? We're not

24:27

going to just do these little

24:29

jobs that basically anybody could do.

24:31

But we're going to do something

24:33

more special. What was it? We're

24:35

going to do something more special.

24:37

What was it in you that

24:39

said that's what I want to

24:41

do? And then the harder part

24:43

is actually doing it. So how

24:45

were you able to make that

24:47

happen? It was just. We knew

24:49

what we didn't want to be.

24:51

And so, but we, the first

24:53

thing we did was we said,

24:55

okay, we know what we don't

24:57

want to do. So we gave

24:59

those things up. Second is, like,

25:01

we started focusing on larger jobs,

25:03

like jobs that could span a

25:05

year or two years, you know,

25:07

help us get through a recession

25:09

if we were to have another

25:11

recession. And so we took some

25:13

shots on doing some projects that

25:16

were a little bit out of

25:18

our wheelhouse and a little bit.

25:20

bigger than and it was challenges.

25:22

I'll tell you what, we planned

25:24

them real well, we executed really

25:26

well, and it started that helped

25:28

make a name for ourselves. And

25:30

there was definitely some risk taking

25:32

there. And I think the fair

25:34

of failure just drove that hell

25:36

out of us to make sure

25:38

that they went right. And at

25:40

the same time, we, you know,

25:42

we focused on a brand, we

25:44

focused on the history of the

25:46

company, came up with a new

25:48

logo, when really branding ourselves around

25:50

this craftsmanship and masonry that my

25:52

grandfather and father and uncles were

25:54

sort of known for, you know,

25:56

and then I would say lastly

25:58

we we sort of built our

26:00

team, like we didn't know what

26:02

we were doing. And, but we

26:04

went out and we hired some

26:06

people who did. And and sort

26:08

of convinced them, and we're able

26:10

to convince them to take a

26:12

chance on us, that we were

26:14

going to bring this company to

26:16

a great place, and sort of

26:18

built out our core leadership team

26:20

in about five years that they're

26:22

all still here today. It's 30

26:24

years later, and they're still with

26:26

me. I mean, it's a great

26:28

story of consistency. But those are

26:30

the four or five things we

26:32

did at that time that helped

26:34

us give us a launching pad

26:36

to start growing the business. It's

26:39

funny, I've... Had this conversation recently

26:41

with some others who have sustained

26:43

excellence over time like you have

26:45

and one of the commonalities is

26:47

You acted and you took action

26:49

before you were ready You didn't

26:51

fully know what you were even

26:53

doing but you had the willingness

26:55

to get after it the willingness

26:57

to act the willingness to do

26:59

the work and the willingness to

27:01

figure it out as you went

27:03

as well as You're willing to

27:05

make the investment in other people

27:07

that maybe did know a little

27:09

bit more than you that could

27:11

help you get there and it

27:13

seems like that combination of things

27:15

of being able to lean into

27:17

some of the uncertainty being able

27:19

to take on a big job

27:21

where Deep down you're probably thinking

27:23

I'm not even sure if we

27:25

can do this job. I don't

27:27

know if we can build this

27:29

big thing and so I'm curious

27:31

about maybe one of those first

27:33

big jobs. What was it? Can

27:35

you take us in the moment

27:37

of an example of a time

27:39

where you said yes, you bid

27:41

on a project, and you got

27:43

it, and maybe even after you

27:45

got it. you looked around maybe

27:47

talk to your brother and say,

27:49

wait, maybe I almost wish we

27:51

didn't get it because this is

27:53

too big of a job. I'm

27:55

not sure if we can do

27:57

it. I wonder if there are

27:59

any of those moments or an

28:02

example you could share that could

28:04

illuminate that process. Sure. You know,

28:06

it's funny. At the time, like

28:08

our confidence level and self-esteem was

28:10

sort of at an all-time low

28:12

coming out of this recession. We

28:14

started taking some bigger jobs. There

28:16

was a school renovation. And it

28:18

was a really nasty job in

28:20

terms of just all these structural

28:22

sort of things that had to

28:24

go into the school to stabilize

28:26

it and renovate it. And so

28:28

it was a lot of it

28:30

was a job that a lot

28:32

of people sort of walked away

28:34

from like, hey this is too

28:36

hard or it's too nasty, whatever.

28:38

And we bid it and we

28:40

were low bidder. At that time,

28:42

a lot of the jobs that

28:44

we had gotten were based on

28:46

a low bid. And we were

28:48

very worried like hated. We leave

28:50

too much money on the table.

28:52

Are we too cheap? Is this

28:54

going to bankrupt us? And but

28:56

we had started taking a few

28:58

smarter people on board the team

29:00

and just really helped us plan

29:02

it really well. And I'll tell

29:04

you what, we killed a job,

29:06

absolutely killed it, made enough money

29:08

to really help give us the

29:10

confidence and really help give us

29:12

the confidence and do it again.

29:14

and to build a bigger job,

29:16

go up to one slightly larger.

29:18

And we made so many friends

29:20

on that job who were so

29:23

impressed with us that they started

29:25

referring us to other people. And

29:27

it's the Ken Blanchard concept of

29:29

raving fans. It's like if you

29:31

have net promoters out there that

29:33

are gonna promote you, that's better

29:35

than anything. And in terms of

29:37

building a business. And so we

29:39

relied on that. What was different?

29:41

or what is different because you're

29:43

still actively building this thing like

29:45

i got to sit in and

29:47

see all of the financial meetings

29:49

to and your sales leaders and

29:51

it was fascinating to learn all

29:53

that what's different about you versus

29:55

others who are bidding on these

29:57

jobs or others who are doing

29:59

similar work in the construction industry?

30:01

What makes you guys different? You

30:03

know, it's a great question. Our

30:05

competitors, like any industry, they all

30:07

get paid to, they're all very

30:09

good at what they do. I

30:11

think our business, we really love

30:13

the building process, like we love

30:15

building, we love figuring out. better

30:17

ways of doing things, more innovative

30:19

ways of doing things, but we

30:21

really focus on the craft. Like

30:23

sometimes construction can become too much

30:25

of a business and you forget

30:27

like why you're in the business.

30:29

And because we grew up around

30:31

a lot of trades people, we

30:33

have such a respect for what

30:35

they do that when we get

30:37

into a project, we really want

30:39

to figure out, okay, we call

30:41

it the art of craftsmanship. How

30:43

can we do things better, more

30:46

differently? But I think the thing

30:48

that we do better and continue

30:50

to really work on is that

30:52

to be a builder first and

30:54

a construction business second, and I

30:56

would say secondly is we really

30:58

focus on the client service aspect

31:00

of it. You can go to

31:02

a restaurant and have a great

31:04

meal at a great price and

31:06

all that kind of stuff, but

31:08

if the service isn't what you

31:10

expect. It's not a great experience.

31:12

And for someone building a building,

31:14

you can be safe, you can

31:16

have high quality, you can have

31:18

the right price, you can be

31:20

on schedule. But if the experience

31:22

stinks, you're not going to want

31:24

to use that person again. And

31:26

so we do focus on the

31:28

experience side of things. You know,

31:30

and lastly, I think we just

31:32

want to hire great people. I

31:34

want to work around people that

31:36

I know like and trust. And

31:38

so a lot of work goes

31:40

into how do you find those

31:42

good people. I think those are

31:44

some of the things we do

31:46

maybe a little bit better or

31:48

a little bit differently. So when

31:50

you take over 97 a CEO,

31:52

I believe fix these numbers. if

31:54

they're wrong. There are roughly 25

31:56

employees and you guys made around

31:58

3 million bucks a year. Where

32:00

are you at now? Employees as

32:02

well as revenue. So we get

32:04

about about 2,400 employees who are

32:06

about three and a half billion

32:09

revenue where we go from the

32:11

Virgin Islands. We skip over. We're

32:13

in North Carolina up through New

32:15

York and New England. That's insane.

32:17

But I feel like though, the

32:19

reason that your story is also

32:21

inspiring is because you mentioned, you

32:23

could easily go back and fix

32:25

the story and say, well, I

32:27

had this vision to be a

32:29

$5 billion company and we're close.

32:31

But instead, I feel like part

32:33

of what's inspiring to me at

32:35

least is you've put one foot

32:37

in front of the other, you've

32:39

taken risk, you've. hired really well,

32:41

you focused on craftsmanship, you surround

32:43

yourself with great people, you have

32:45

great service for the people you

32:47

work with, your work is so

32:49

excellent that then it leads to

32:51

raving fans which then fills your

32:53

pipeline full of work almost more

32:55

than you can even fulfill. Is

32:57

that an accurate summation of what

32:59

you've tried to do over the

33:01

years? That's what we're trying to

33:03

do. And in most cases we

33:05

succeed in some places we fall

33:07

down or we call them dropping

33:09

the eggs, don't drop any eggs.

33:11

But yeah, that is the intention.

33:13

But it does all start with

33:15

people. You know, I mentioned the

33:17

leadership team. that had been with

33:19

me a long time. And at

33:21

the time that I was struggling

33:23

with the business, I looked for

33:25

people who, a lot of them

33:27

were athletes, because I knew they

33:30

understood teamwork, they understood discipline, they

33:32

could take coaching, they were resilient.

33:34

And so we ended up hiring

33:36

a lot of athletes or former

33:38

athletes. And it was just, it

33:40

was what I knew. And that

33:42

was sort of working out for

33:44

us. And we continued to do

33:46

that. to this day, like a

33:48

lot of athletes, a lot of

33:50

former military, but it's people who

33:52

are high initiative and can understand

33:54

all those concepts that I sort

33:56

of grew up with. I mean,

33:58

I'm very biased, Anthony, so you

34:00

may be talking the wrong guy,

34:02

but I've had very good experiences

34:04

hiring people from that background, not

34:06

exclusively, but And to get criticized

34:08

by HR departments from time to

34:10

time because they're like, that's you,

34:12

so you're just hiring people like

34:14

you. But there is an element

34:16

to people who either served our

34:18

country in the military, which I

34:20

met a number of them after

34:22

I spoke at your company and

34:24

including guys who were super high

34:26

up and impressive, as well as

34:28

people who played quarterback or who

34:30

were college athletes. I just feel

34:32

like there's something not. across the

34:34

board, but there's something special with

34:36

a lot of those people, the

34:38

men and women who have played

34:40

sports at a really high level

34:42

when it comes to resilience, preparation,

34:44

coachability so big, and working with

34:46

others, which in the construction world

34:48

you gotta do. So it just

34:50

seems like it makes a lot

34:53

of sense as to why they

34:55

would do well at your company.

34:57

I just read a recent Harvard

34:59

Business Review article that came out,

35:01

a business professor had done a

35:03

study there that showed that showed

35:05

that if... that former athletes over

35:07

the course of their career will

35:09

make more money and go further

35:11

in their businesses than people who

35:13

hadn't played sports. Now that's not

35:15

to say that sports is the

35:17

end-all be-all, it's just that on

35:19

average they do better and it's

35:21

for the exact same things that

35:23

you just talked about. Now can

35:25

you get that in the military?

35:27

Sure, can you get that in

35:29

the performing arts? Sure, but you've

35:31

got to be able to show

35:33

those same qualities and as we

35:35

talked about different personalities and people

35:37

of different education levels and cultural

35:39

backgrounds, you need somebody that sort

35:41

of understands that teamwork and how

35:43

to work in a large team.

35:45

And that's why former athletes do

35:47

work well in construction. Especially that

35:49

part about working with people from

35:51

all different walks of life. That's

35:53

why I think college athletics is

35:55

really key. Because in high school

35:57

sometimes you don't get that, but

35:59

in college I remember my first

36:01

locker I'm around guys from all

36:03

over the country that have different

36:05

accents that have their own almost

36:07

different language. that they've used that

36:09

I become super acclimated to and

36:11

now I can hang out and

36:13

become really good lifelong friends which

36:16

I am with a number of

36:18

them that we would have never

36:20

ever ever met if it weren't

36:22

be the fact that we both

36:24

played football and college and I

36:26

think that is a great thing

36:28

I realize not everybody has the

36:30

ability to do that but I'm

36:32

with you that I think there's

36:34

something there's a couple more things

36:36

I wanted to hit Anthony that

36:38

I think are really big. You

36:40

mentioned your logo and I don't

36:42

always talk about logos I'm not

36:44

sure it's important But in this

36:46

case I feel like it is

36:48

because there's a lot of meaning

36:50

in the arch What does the

36:52

arch mean to you and why

36:54

is that a part of your

36:56

logo? So When we decided to

36:58

rebrand the company what we based

37:00

it on was the oldest picture

37:02

we could find of my great

37:04

grandfather was building this massive stone

37:06

arch and he was on the

37:08

scaffolding and you know I think

37:10

it dates back to like the

37:12

20s and so for us the

37:14

arch was part of our legacy

37:16

but it also denotes teamwork right

37:18

you can't the two so like

37:20

the famous St. Louis arch picture

37:22

it's like you can't make an

37:24

arch work without teamwork but it

37:26

also denotes forward-thinking strength, stability, and

37:28

those are all qualities that we

37:30

sort of wanted to be known

37:32

for. And so the arch was

37:34

sort of the perfect logo for

37:37

what we were looking for. You

37:39

know, at that time, I was

37:41

reading a ton of like, like

37:43

the only the only place I

37:45

could go was reading like Jim

37:47

Collins books and in Harvard Business

37:49

Review. Like my wife would drive

37:51

and I would read. I mean,

37:53

that's. This was pre-podcast days and

37:55

that was sort of my business

37:57

school experience. It was just reading

37:59

everything I could pick out. And

38:01

so a lot of the Jim

38:03

Collins stuff, which is awesome, you

38:05

know, was based on building a

38:07

great lasting company. And so the

38:09

arch was sort of the perfect

38:11

representative of that. You mentioned building

38:13

a great lasting company and you

38:15

and your brother and your family

38:17

have intentionally set it up in

38:19

a way that You're a very

38:21

wealthy guy, but you could be

38:23

a much much wealthier person. I

38:25

don't fully understand what an ESOP

38:27

is. I know some people do.

38:29

Can you describe what an ESOP

38:31

is and why you decided to

38:33

set your company up that way?

38:35

Sure. So an ESOP is basically

38:37

an employee stock ownership program. We

38:39

transitioned the company about six years

38:41

ago into an ESOP. Over the

38:43

course of my career, I have

38:45

seen... a lot of construction companies

38:47

closed their doors and a lot

38:49

of these construction companies I admired

38:51

and I sort of wanted to

38:53

model our own company after and

38:55

I was watching them all closed

38:57

because they had a hard time

39:00

either doing the leadership transition or

39:02

they would take two or three

39:04

bad jobs that ultimately sank them.

39:06

Construction has the second highest failure

39:08

rate of any business after restaurants

39:10

in the United States. going back

39:12

to that recession of 1990, fear

39:14

or failure is a real thing

39:16

for me. And so I don't

39:18

want to take a fourth or

39:20

fifth generation company and not have

39:22

it last, not be a lasting

39:24

legacy type company. My brother feels

39:26

the same way. So we started

39:28

talking about what are the things

39:30

that we can do to make

39:32

sure that this is a long-term

39:34

sustainable. legacy type company and we

39:36

made the decision after studying. bunch

39:38

of different models that the ESOP

39:40

was really the best model for

39:42

achieving that. And for us, you

39:44

know, it wasn't about the money.

39:46

Like if we died and had

39:48

two extra bags of cash, but

39:50

the company had failed, that would

39:52

be a failure, right? I'd rather

39:54

die with no money, but still

39:56

can singly construction be around and

39:58

in a great place. And so

40:00

for us, the ESOP became an

40:02

easy decision. And it's it's it

40:04

took a few years to start

40:06

making an impact, but I will

40:08

say neither of us have any

40:10

regret. We look back and think

40:12

it was absolutely the right thing

40:14

to do. And for an owner,

40:16

like myself and my brother, we

40:18

feel like we're part of much

40:20

more part of a team now.

40:23

Like I'm an employee. I get

40:25

a check. My name's on the

40:27

door. Okay, but I still feel

40:29

like I'm more of a team

40:31

and part of a team and

40:33

that's a good feeling to have.

40:35

So the company just structurally is

40:37

owned by all of your employees?

40:39

That's correct. How does that work?

40:41

I mean basically it's almost like

40:43

it's really they own stock in

40:45

the company and there's a vesting

40:47

program you get to be here

40:49

for so long and you know

40:51

provided the company does well which

40:53

it has, they can make a

40:55

lot of money. And you know

40:57

what? Construction's hard. It's damn hard.

40:59

So they should make a lot

41:01

of money during COVID. And COVID

41:03

was a tough period for construction

41:05

because everybody else is at home

41:07

on their couch and we're out

41:09

working because you can't build a

41:11

building from your living room. And

41:13

so I remember my daughter calling

41:15

me, you know, it's early in

41:17

the morning, she's in Maine and

41:19

she's driving to, you know, it's

41:21

like 20 below zero, she's driving.

41:23

do a job, it's dark out.

41:25

And she's like, dad, why am

41:27

I doing this? And, you know,

41:29

her husband's at home. And I

41:31

said, I said, Hun, I don't

41:33

know, I was trying to come

41:35

up with something. I'm trying to

41:37

be a father and a boss

41:39

at the same time. I said,

41:41

it's sort of like, why would

41:43

a farmer follow their dad's foot?

41:46

steps into farming. But I said,

41:48

look, I know there are hard

41:50

days, but there's also a lot

41:52

of days that are really rewarding.

41:54

The day you open a project

41:56

and people are seeing it for

41:58

the first time or the day

42:00

you raise that last piece of

42:02

steel or just the ability to

42:04

do something with a good bunch

42:06

of people that's really hard, really

42:08

challenging, but you do it together

42:10

and you succeed. Like you can't

42:12

get that in other businesses. And

42:14

we talked about that. a lot

42:16

because construction does have its hard

42:18

days. And so I think one

42:20

of the benefits of being an

42:22

employee owned company is it just

42:24

binds everybody together a bit better

42:26

than a normal corporate structure would,

42:28

whether it be a publicly owned

42:30

company, privately owned company, whatever. So

42:32

anyway, I think it's a real

42:34

asset for us. We talk about

42:36

ownership. They legitimately own it. I

42:38

mean, it's not just like a

42:40

saying, it's real. I think that's

42:42

a big deal. And I love

42:44

that you guys have structured that

42:46

way to close. Anthony, I have

42:48

one more question that I think

42:50

a story that actually ties everything

42:52

we've talked about together because it's

42:54

the, again, I think the way

42:56

you've approached it's inspiring to me.

42:58

That's why we're having this conversation.

43:00

It's why I love being with

43:02

your team in Boston. It's you're

43:04

out in Colorado. big hike, a

43:07

tough one. Can you take me

43:09

to that story to that moment

43:11

when you're in Colorado about to

43:13

go on a big hike together

43:15

and what you learned from it?

43:17

Sure, I'm a big hiker, as

43:19

I know you are, and we

43:21

decided to go out to Colorado

43:23

to try and do a 10,000-footer.

43:25

And hiking for me is sort

43:27

of a release. It helps me

43:29

think. We went out and we're

43:31

at the base of this mountain.

43:33

We had a guy. He was

43:35

a little old guy. I think

43:37

he smoked a lot of pot

43:39

of pot. But that. That's just

43:41

me and you know we're getting

43:43

ready to go and I said

43:45

well where's the trail and where's

43:47

the map? Like I'm used to

43:49

hiking in the White Mountains, pretty

43:51

dense, and you can get lost

43:53

very easily. And he said, well,

43:55

we don't need a trail, we

43:57

don't need a map. I'm like,

43:59

well, how do we know what

44:01

we're going? And he says, well,

44:03

he just pointed at the top

44:05

of the mountain. He says, well,

44:07

we're going there, we're going up.

44:09

And I don't know why I

44:11

had this like moment where I

44:13

says, oh my God, that just

44:15

makes so much sense. It's like

44:17

every year, you're just going up.

44:19

You just get better every year.

44:21

And so I don't need this

44:23

big mapped out strategic plan sitting

44:25

on the shelf of how every

44:27

step is going to go all

44:30

the way up the mountain. I

44:32

just need to put one foot

44:34

in front of the other and

44:36

know that we're getting a little

44:38

bit better every hour, every day,

44:40

every year. you know where we

44:42

go we go I mean obviously

44:44

we're planning out a few years

44:46

and thinking about where the markets

44:48

are going and all that kind

44:50

of stuff but you know for

44:52

me that that hiking trip and

44:54

that guide was sort of revelational

44:56

and so anyway that that's that

44:58

was my strategic plan I guess

45:00

that's what I'm saying I think

45:02

as inspirational as that Planning is,

45:04

it certainly has a place, it's

45:06

important to think about it, it's

45:08

important to be reflective, it's important

45:10

to have some sort of a

45:12

vision in a place where you

45:14

want to go. I do think

45:16

goals, all that stuff. It all

45:18

has its place, it's all useful.

45:20

With that said, the willingness, the

45:22

ability, the endurance to get up,

45:24

get to the job site, take

45:26

the next step, take the next

45:28

step. go up get to the

45:30

top and then go up to

45:32

the next one and the next

45:34

one and take the next step

45:36

there is a lot to be

45:38

said from a guy who takes

45:40

over a very small business that

45:42

have been small for multiple generations

45:44

that's the best to keep part

45:46

here, when I learned Big Doug

45:48

deeper, I'm like, wait, it was

45:50

a small business for multiple generations

45:53

of humans. Then you get in

45:55

there and you have a mentality

45:57

of, I'm gonna take some risk,

45:59

but I'm gonna take the next

46:01

step, and the next step, and

46:03

the next up, and that stuff

46:05

compounds so much over time that

46:07

you can go from a three,

46:09

four, five million dollar business to

46:11

a four billion dollar business serving

46:13

24 hundred employees who are doing

46:15

great work who now actually own.

46:17

the business. Dude, I love it.

46:19

And I think it's very inspirational.

46:21

I really appreciate you being here.

46:23

I appreciate your friendship. I appreciate

46:25

your trust in me to come

46:27

spend time with your team. And

46:29

I, you know, I know that

46:31

this won't be the last conversation

46:33

we have. I'd love to continue

46:35

our dialogue as we both progress,

46:37

man. Awesome. This has been a

46:39

lot of fun for me to

46:41

talk with you. Like you said,

46:43

your podcast has been a great

46:45

learning tool for me as I

46:47

continue. All right, good to see

46:49

you Ryan. It is the end

46:51

of the podcast club. Thank you

46:53

for being a member of the

46:55

end of the podcast club. If

46:57

you are, send me a note.

46:59

Ryan at Learning Leader.com. Let me

47:01

know what you learned from this

47:03

great conversation with Anthony Kinsigli. A

47:05

few takeaways from my notes. I

47:07

felt like the through line for

47:09

the whole conversation is that Anthony

47:11

has been willing to take the

47:14

next step. each day didn't necessarily

47:16

have a grand vision just like

47:18

their guide who told them in

47:20

Colorado when Anthony asked about a

47:22

map or a trail up the

47:24

mountain the guy pointed to the

47:26

top and said it's right up

47:28

there we just need to keep

47:30

going you got to take the

47:32

next step and then the next

47:34

and then the next and then

47:36

you surround yourself with great people

47:38

you focus on craftsmanship you do

47:40

excellent work you push your edges

47:42

and you do it consistently for

47:44

decades and you've got a chance

47:46

for great things to happen. I

47:48

also really appreciated his grave digging.

47:50

It's a really hard job. It's

47:52

manual labor. Most people don't want

47:54

to do it. And all the

47:56

things that he learned from it.

47:58

When you mess up, you got

48:00

to take responsibility. You own up

48:02

to it. You fix it. You

48:04

learn from your mistakes and you

48:06

get better. And I enjoy learning

48:08

from him that him and his

48:10

brother had a bigger ambition. They

48:12

could have kept going with their

48:14

steady income from snow plowing and

48:16

ditch digging, but instead they pushed

48:18

the boundaries of what they were

48:20

capable of. They took on bigger

48:22

projects. They hired people to help

48:24

them. They did excellent work and

48:26

word spread. that they had an

48:28

appreciation for the craft. I love

48:30

all that. And that's how you

48:32

go from a $3 million business

48:34

to a $3 billion business in

48:37

just a few decades. What an

48:39

inspiring story. I want to say

48:41

to you, thank you once again

48:43

for continuing to spread the message

48:45

and telling your friend or two,

48:47

hey, you should listen to this

48:49

episode of the Learning Leader Show

48:51

with Anthony Kinsigli. I think. He'll

48:53

help you become a more effective

48:55

leader and because you continue to

48:57

do that and you also go

48:59

to Spotify an Apple podcast and

49:01

you subscribe to the show really

49:03

important then you rate it hopefully

49:05

five stars and you write a

49:07

thoughtful review and by doing all

49:09

of that you keep giving me

49:11

the opportunity to do what I

49:13

love on a daily basis and

49:15

for that I will forever be

49:17

grateful. Thank you so so much.

49:19

Talk to you soon. Can wait.