0:00

What do you think that the wellness

0:02

world is paying too much attention to

0:04

and what do you think they're not

0:06

paying enough attention to? Just an additional

0:08

10 grams of fibre can reduce your

0:10

risk of dying by 11%. The best

0:13

thing you can do in your kitchen

0:15

is swap your plastic Tupperware to glass.

0:17

You cook with olive oil. Yes. What

0:19

does the science say? Gosh, I feel

0:21

like there's so much myth around this.

0:24

The nervous system and our brain and

0:26

what we tell our bodies is actually

0:28

the conductor of the orchestra that's our

0:30

body. Hello, friends, and welcome back

0:32

to the Liz Moody podcast. Today we're

0:35

going to dive into what the real

0:37

science actually says about some of the

0:39

most controversial wellness topics that you see

0:41

on the internet. This is the type

0:44

of nuanced conversation that makes me so

0:46

glad that I have a podcast. because

0:48

the answers often aren't as simple or

0:50

as inflammatory as a 30-second social media

0:53

post would lead you to believe. You're

0:55

going to come away from this episode

0:57

with tons of questions answered and easy

1:00

action steps that you can take to

1:02

feel better in your body today. Our

1:04

guest today is Dr. Vivian Chen. Vivian

1:07

is a medical doctor with over 14

1:09

years of experience in the UK. She

1:11

is an absolute expert at combing through

1:13

the research to help people reduce their

1:16

toxic load, improve their mitochondrial health, and

1:18

get to the root cause of chronic

1:20

health challenges. She is the founder of

1:23

Plateful Health and the writer of an

1:25

incredible sub stack that I will link

1:27

in the show notes. There is a

1:29

lot of info in the episode, so

1:32

if you want some key takeaways when

1:34

you're done listening, head over to Lizmoudi.substack.com

1:36

and sign up for our brand new

1:38

newsletter. We've also got challenges. Our new

1:41

attention restoration challenge is 10 out of

1:43

10. We have a five-day gut reset

1:45

that really works. We've got bonus interviews.

1:47

So much good stuff over there. Dr.

1:50

Vivian Chen, welcome to the podcast. Thank

1:52

you so much for having me. I'm

1:54

a big fan of yours. So let's

1:56

just dive right in. We're going to get

1:58

into so much stuff today. Let's start with

2:01

what do you think that the wellness

2:03

world is paying too much attention to

2:05

and what do you think they're not

2:07

paying enough attention to? Oh, I love

2:10

this. I think we're paying too much

2:12

attention to protein and not enough

2:14

attention to fiber. Protein is definitely

2:16

important. We need to be getting

2:18

enough of it, especially as we

2:21

get older. And it definitely does

2:23

make us more satiated. So protein

2:25

is important. But what I see

2:27

is people are... kind of sacrificing the amount

2:30

of the plate that's given too much

2:32

to protein and not enough to fiber.

2:34

And fiber I would say is just as

2:36

important for satiety and also for

2:38

longevity for our gut health for

2:40

so many different things. The protein

2:42

conversation is interesting because I feel

2:44

like it's almost the modern iteration

2:46

of the weight loss conversation. I

2:48

think a lot of people feel

2:50

like they're upping their protein and

2:52

they think it's... for an amorphous health

2:55

reason, but really it's because they

2:57

think that's going to help them

2:59

lose weight. Exactly. Do you think

3:01

that high amounts of protein, if

3:03

your only goal were weight loss,

3:05

do you think high amounts of

3:07

protein is the best way to get

3:09

there? I think it could work for sure,

3:11

because you get fuller and you stay

3:13

fuller for longer, and so naturally you

3:15

end up eating less, and you snack

3:18

less. But is that good for

3:20

long-term health? I think that's a

3:22

different conversation, right? Because both of

3:24

us know that the number of

3:26

on scale does not equate to health.

3:28

So if that's your only goal, sure.

3:30

But I think for both of us,

3:32

the goal is to thrive and to

3:34

feel great, and not just the number

3:37

on the scale. Do you have concerns

3:39

that protein unto itself is causing harm,

3:41

or is it just about the... space

3:43

that it takes up that could be

3:45

other stuff. I think there's two things.

3:47

One is that it's taking up the

3:49

space for fiber, right? Because if you're

3:51

just cramming lots and lots of,

3:53

let's say, animal protein onto the

3:55

plate, naturally the space for fiber

3:57

goes down. And if you're full...

4:00

from just eating that protein first,

4:02

you're not going to eat as

4:04

much fiber. So that's number one.

4:06

And number two, for certain populations,

4:08

I do think that there is

4:10

such thing as too much protein

4:12

because it's not something we can

4:14

store in our bodies, right? So

4:16

when you get too much, now

4:18

your body has to excrete it's

4:20

through the kidneys. So if your

4:22

kidney function is compromised, you may

4:24

have issues. It's just an extra

4:26

strain on the kidneys to excrete

4:28

that amount of protein. where that

4:30

you're not using. Talk to us

4:32

about the benefits of fiber. This

4:34

is really quite shocking, but just

4:36

an additional 10 grams of fiber

4:38

in your diet can reduce your

4:40

risk of dying by 11%. That

4:42

statistic is mind-blowing to me, and

4:44

I feel like more people should

4:46

know this. And if they knew

4:48

this, they would be adding a

4:50

lot more plants to their plates.

4:52

Can you peg 10 grams for

4:55

me? Is that like... five carrots?

4:57

That's like probably one avocado. Okay.

4:59

It's not hard, right? Maybe half

5:01

a cup of beans. Oh, okay.

5:03

You'll get that in your morning

5:05

oatmeal. Every meal I actually aim

5:07

to try and get at least

5:09

10 grams of fiber. So people

5:11

want to get that 30 grams

5:13

of protein. I would challenge everybody

5:15

to also think about 10 grams

5:17

of fiber into that ball as

5:19

well. And what are, so we

5:21

have that's going to reduce... all

5:23

cause mortality is that correct? Yes,

5:25

that's a risk of dying from

5:27

anything. Risk of dying from anything.

5:29

And then you've talked about some

5:31

really interesting benefits that I've heard

5:33

from fiber like it can actually

5:35

help our body get rid of

5:37

microplastics? Yeah, so fiber, think of

5:39

it as a binder as well.

5:41

So in our gut actually combined

5:43

onto contaminants we don't want to

5:45

absorb. So you know now we're

5:47

overwhelmed right from studies showing there's...

5:49

Heavy metals in our seafood, there's

5:51

microplastic in all kinds of foods,

5:54

there's pee fast everywhere. Well, one

5:56

of the ways that we can

5:58

kind of prevent absorption from that

6:00

is through ingestion of more fiber.

6:02

Because, yes, we may be eating

6:04

these contaminants, but if we don't

6:06

absorb them, then they don't impact

6:08

us as much. There was this

6:10

really interesting study on 700 healthy

6:12

adults, and they show that the

6:14

more plants in the diet, the

6:16

lower their overall body... burden of

6:18

toxins. So we're talking about things

6:20

like heavy metals, cadmium. It's a

6:22

really interesting study because they looked

6:24

at plants, not just fiber, and

6:26

of course, fiber does come with

6:28

plants, but plants also come with

6:30

binders, like phytates, which people like

6:32

to call anti-nutrients, but they are

6:34

anti-nutrients in that they bind onto

6:36

things like iron minerals, but they

6:38

also bind onto things we don't

6:40

want to absorb, like heavy metals.

6:42

So interesting. when the carnivore community

6:44

is like you should avoid beans

6:46

because of the phytates, the lectins,

6:48

all those types of things, those

6:51

qualities actually have a beneficial component?

6:53

Yes, absolutely. And there are studies

6:55

showing that phytates can have anti-cancer

6:57

effects in small amounts. So there's

6:59

new ones here, right? We don't

7:01

want to get too much of

7:03

these anti-nutrians because then, let's say,

7:05

you already have a compromised gut.

7:07

and you're kind of bordering iron

7:09

deficiency. Now if you introduce a

7:11

lot of fightates into your diet,

7:13

then that could prevent the absorption

7:15

of iron and make that deficiency

7:17

worse. But for most people with

7:19

healthy gut, not iron deficient, a

7:21

little bit of fightates and anti-nutrients,

7:23

I'm putting that in air quotes,

7:25

can actually be good for us.

7:27

I love this. This is... What

7:29

I love so much about podcasting

7:31

is because I feel like most

7:33

of these things have nuance. Most

7:35

things in life have nuance and

7:37

social media by default because you

7:39

have to get some of these

7:41

attention on that. like five seconds

7:43

it has this flattening effect and

7:45

so and you also need to

7:48

get people riled up and so

7:50

of course we were like this

7:52

is ruining your gut health and

7:54

it's like well actually it has

7:56

benefits but if you have too

7:58

much it also is negative and

8:00

there's there's a middle ground 100%

8:02

yeah and I feel like We're

8:04

doing people who deserve us if

8:06

we're not painting that nuance for

8:08

them because everybody deserves to know

8:10

the full picture and they can

8:12

decide for themselves what to eat.

8:14

I also love this because I

8:16

was talking to my girlfriend the

8:18

other day and it just microplastics

8:20

keep coming up over and over

8:22

microplastics, nanoplastics on the podcast and

8:24

she was like look I know

8:26

they're bad for me. There's a

8:28

number of doctors who are like

8:30

this is one of the reasons

8:32

young people are getting cancer at

8:34

such a higher rate. She's like,

8:36

I know they're bad for me,

8:38

but like, how am I supposed

8:40

to avoid them? They're quite literally

8:42

everywhere. And so I like the

8:45

idea, and we'll talk about maybe

8:47

strategies to avoid them, but I

8:49

like the idea that you can

8:51

also support your body getting rid

8:53

of them. That feels really empowering

8:55

to me. Right. It almost feels

8:57

protective in a way, right? Yes,

8:59

I know I'm being exposed, but

9:01

let me eat more plants to

9:03

reduce that absorption. has been shown

9:05

to reduce your risk of color

9:07

rectal cancel by 10%. Which is

9:09

one of the types that's going

9:11

up in young people. Exactly. It's

9:13

one of the types that's extremely

9:15

alarming because the rate has doubled

9:17

in young people. And now I

9:19

think 20% of color rectal cancer

9:21

is diagnosed in those under the

9:23

age of 55. 20% Yeah, that's

9:25

not ideal. What are your favorite

9:27

forms of fiber? I love raspberries

9:29

because it has both soluble and

9:31

insoluble. I mean, most plants do,

9:33

but the soluble ones, they have

9:35

the more kind of heart-healthy cholesterol-lowering

9:37

benefit, whereas the insoluble that's, you

9:39

know, think of it as bulking,

9:42

helping you go to bathroom. By

9:44

the way, talking about excreting microplastic,

9:46

one of the main ways we

9:48

get rid of micro... plastic is

9:50

through our poop. Pooping is really

9:52

important if you want to load

9:54

your overall toxic load. Are you

9:56

like we should be pooping once

9:58

a day? Are you one of

10:00

those? At least once a day?

10:02

At least once a day. Yes.

10:04

Okay. I interviewed a doctor once

10:06

like 10 years ago who's like

10:08

I poop after every single thing

10:10

I put in my body. Like

10:12

if I put it in my

10:14

body, it goes out of my

10:16

body. And that shows that my

10:18

system is optimized. And I'm like,

10:20

is that the... I'm not there.

10:22

Right. I feel like that's what

10:24

babies do. Maybe we kind of

10:26

started life that way and then

10:28

we kind of trained ourselves not

10:30

to do that. But once a

10:32

day. Okay. And if you're not

10:34

pooping once a day, then you're

10:36

missing a valuable opportunity to a

10:39

valuable opportunity to a street. the

10:41

more you're reabsorbing these toxins. So

10:43

you'll see people say, oh yeah,

10:45

I'm taking a clans, liver clans,

10:47

and they're popping these supplements that

10:49

push liver detoxification, but they're not

10:51

pooping. So if they're not pooping,

10:53

the liver's flushing out these toxins

10:55

into the gut, and all they're

10:57

doing is just reabsorbing, and it's

10:59

doing nothing. Oh, no. Yeah, that's

11:01

not ideal. I love berries. I've

11:03

been doing blackberries that I toss

11:05

with cardamom and it's like one

11:07

of my favorite snacks. It's delightful.

11:09

And then I'll do raspberries where

11:11

like, speaking of poop, it feels

11:13

very but whole core, but like

11:15

I'll stick a little chocolate chip

11:17

in the raspberry and it's so

11:19

delicious. Oh yeah, that sounds amazing.

11:21

I also love oatmeal. Oatmeal is

11:23

one of the ones that's been

11:25

very controversial in like the carnivore

11:27

community. People are like, you're eating,

11:29

it's bad. So what I've heard

11:31

about oatmeal, bad for your blood

11:33

sugar, you're going to get a

11:35

huge blood sugar, a spike and

11:38

crash. And then we've kind of

11:40

debunked the FITA selected like whatever,

11:42

the anti nutrient conversation. But what

11:44

do you think about the negative

11:46

stuff people say about oatmeal? Again,

11:48

there's nuance here, right. So if

11:50

you look at the large population

11:52

studies. Eating whole grains is actually

11:54

correlated with a lower risk of

11:56

diabetes. So if you have two

11:58

or more servings of whole grains

12:00

like... rolled oats every day, you

12:02

have a 20% lower risk of

12:04

getting diabetes. So how can it

12:06

be pushing up your blood sugar?

12:08

Well, I think it could be

12:10

in certain individuals, and it comes

12:12

down to bio-individuality. So let's say

12:14

you have an intolerance to oats.

12:16

Yes, maybe it's causing inflammation, maybe

12:18

that's causing the blood sugar. What

12:20

types of oats are you eating?

12:22

Are you eating instant oats? Those

12:24

packaged oats? those are heavily processed.

12:26

Oats are not all made equal.

12:28

So if you have steel cut

12:30

oats, those are not likely to

12:32

spike your blood sugar nearly as

12:35

much as the instant oats which

12:37

are ground up a lot more

12:39

finely. So what about the in-between?

12:41

I do like a rolled-out because

12:43

I don't have the patience for

12:45

a steel. I know. Yeah, me

12:47

too. I think roll those are

12:49

great. Okay. Yeah, this nuance. And

12:51

also, what are you adding to

12:53

your oatmeal? Are you adding a

12:55

ton of sugar? So what, you

12:57

know, a lot of those packaged

12:59

oatmeal are full of sugar. Of

13:01

course it's going to spike your

13:03

blood sugar. So there's so much

13:05

nuance here. Are you adding enough

13:07

fat, healthy fat and protein to

13:09

that? So you're dressing. That oatmeal

13:11

now with healthy fat healthy protein

13:13

to kind of stem that blood

13:15

sugar spike wait So what's the

13:17

doctor Vivian 10 oatmeal recipe? Oh,

13:19

so I love in the summer

13:21

I love overnight oats Because I

13:23

like just grabbing it and going

13:25

so I love adding Cheer seeds

13:27

to my oats. So that's added

13:29

fiber added healthy fat And then

13:32

I would do ground flax seeds

13:34

as well. So again, more fiber.

13:36

And then I do berries on

13:38

top and then a tablespoon of

13:40

some kind of nut butter. So

13:42

almond on peanut. Let's talk about

13:44

microplastics. The thing that I find

13:46

sometimes most frustrating about the microplastic

13:48

conversation is we have the news

13:50

headlines that are like, they're in

13:52

our brain, they're in our body,

13:54

it's so scary. And then we're

13:56

like, well, what should we do?

13:58

And they're like, stop drinking from

14:00

plastic water bottle water bottles. And

14:02

I'm like, we all kind of

14:04

do that. Most of us know

14:06

that plastic water bottles are a

14:08

microplastic risk at this point. And

14:10

to my friend's point that I

14:12

talked about earlier, it feels like

14:14

they're still unavoidable because you're like,

14:16

it's in the air, it's in

14:18

the water, it's in our furniture.

14:20

What? Other steps can we take

14:22

that we might not be thinking

14:24

of that would actually make like

14:26

a real difference in our microplastic

14:29

consumption? The first step is you

14:31

just mentioned bottled water. I feel

14:33

like a lot of people are

14:35

still drinking from plastic bottle water

14:37

at home. So I see a

14:39

lot of home. Yes. I see

14:41

at least so my kids for

14:43

example, when I take them to

14:45

their friends houses, they come home

14:47

with bottles of plastic. So that's

14:49

what they drink. Okay, maybe I'm

14:51

in a bubble. I feel like

14:53

we are. Do you shop at

14:55

Costco? I don't. I'm in a

14:57

two-person household, so I can't go

14:59

through that much peanut butter. Right,

15:01

yeah. But I would love to.

15:03

The sample section is like, the

15:05

sample situation is amazing. Exactly. Whenever

15:07

I go to Costco, I just

15:09

see crates and crates of plastic

15:11

bottled water being purchased. I feel

15:13

like people are doing that. Okay.

15:15

I mean, what choice do you

15:17

have, right? Well, this is always

15:19

my question. Is it better to

15:21

be thirsty or is it better

15:23

to consume? Like, is dehydration worse

15:26

or better for your health than

15:28

consuming microplastics? Okay. Well, considering that

15:30

kidneys are one of your key

15:32

detox organs, I would stay hydrated.

15:34

Okay. Even if there's some microplastic,

15:36

you would grab like a plastic

15:38

water bottle if you didn't have

15:40

your own water bottle. Yeah. And

15:42

then just eat, just eat a

15:44

lot of fiber. It happens acutely,

15:46

so it's not overtime. So like

15:48

if you feel like you are

15:50

traveling, say, or you have high

15:52

microplastic exposure at that moment, you

15:54

can up your fiber at that

15:56

moment and excrete it. Okay, you're

15:58

nodding. Yes, yes. So when you

16:00

drink water, okay, the water, small

16:02

molecules, are getting through your gut

16:04

barrier, right? that's how it's being

16:06

absorbed. But the microplastic particles are

16:08

bigger. So if you have a

16:10

healthy gut barrier, those should not

16:12

be getting through. I mean, of

16:14

course, the nanoplastic and all of

16:16

that can be getting through, but

16:18

you can still trap a lot

16:20

in your gut. Eat your berries

16:22

while you're drinking your plastic bottled

16:25

water. That's one way. There's also

16:27

mechanistic studies, very interesting, that certain

16:29

strains of bacteria can break down.

16:31

harmful compounds from plastic before it

16:33

gets absorbed into our bodies. So

16:35

not human studies, peachy-dish studies, but

16:37

things like kimchi. Eating that, that

16:39

could be helping to break down

16:41

some of the harmful stuff from

16:43

plastic before it gets absorbed. So

16:45

we're going back to gut health

16:47

again. So I feel like optimizing

16:49

your gut health, making sure you're

16:51

pooping every day. Those are great

16:53

things to do to mitigate the

16:55

exposures we cannot. avoid. Are there

16:57

any other things that you do

16:59

in your house or you would

17:01

recommend that people do as sort

17:03

of like a bare minimum in

17:05

terms of trying to mitigate risk

17:07

or avoid exposure? Yeah, so I

17:09

think about exposure, right? What are

17:11

we exposed to the most in

17:13

our environment? We talked about water

17:15

and the next thing is air.

17:17

We breathe around 11,000 litres of

17:19

air per day and there is...

17:22

bits of microplastic nanoplastic floating around

17:24

in the air and a lot

17:26

of it is riding around on

17:28

dust particles and so dusting is

17:30

actually a key way to reduce

17:32

your exposure in your home and

17:34

if you can afford it investing

17:36

in a good quality hepper filter

17:38

because those will trap your microplastic

17:40

particles. Wait and I've heard you

17:42

say before that if we're dusting

17:44

we shouldn't like get a swiffer

17:46

thing because then we're just spreading

17:48

it all around so what should

17:50

we do instead? Yeah you should

17:52

wet a cloth rag and then

17:54

wipe your surfaces because then that

17:56

traps the dust and you would

17:58

wash it away. rather than swiffing

18:00

and just moving around and if

18:02

you're not wearing a mask you're

18:04

actually breathing potentially more in. So

18:06

either don't clean, which... or do

18:08

the wet rag trick. Yes. How

18:10

bad are plastic cutting boards? I

18:12

definitely think that could be a

18:14

kind of source of exposure, but

18:16

is it super high? I don't

18:19

think so. There was a study

18:21

from last year that showed that

18:23

we could be ingesting something like

18:25

up to 12 criticots worth of...

18:27

microplastic from our cutting board. But

18:29

you know in that study they

18:31

were cutting carrots on those to

18:33

get to that level. So it's

18:35

up to that amount but most

18:37

cutting boards are not generating that

18:39

much. I think it's important to

18:41

when you get headlines like that

18:43

to step back and actually look

18:45

at the study, look at what

18:47

they did and kind of stay

18:49

calm right and and put your

18:51

thinking brain logical brain on and

18:53

focus on the things that are

18:55

easy for you and that actually

18:57

make a difference instead of like,

18:59

oh my goodness, I now have

19:01

to throw away everything in my

19:03

house. And of course, you know,

19:05

the next time, if you do

19:07

have a plastic cutting board and

19:09

you are in the market for

19:11

one, please do make the change

19:13

to nonplastic. But I'm not, you

19:16

know, one for like, let's just...

19:18

change everything overnight and throw everything

19:20

out of your house right now.

19:22

What's the alternative if we are

19:24

in the market for our cutting

19:26

board? Are we getting like glass?

19:28

I hate the noise the glass

19:30

makes, but would I feel like

19:32

there's like glues and there's issues

19:34

with it molding? Yeah, so believe

19:36

it or not studies have shown

19:38

that wood actually is naturally antimicrobial.

19:40

The problem comes when they crack.

19:42

So when they crack them bacteria

19:44

can get inside and now that

19:46

can be a breeding ground. So

19:48

what you want to look for

19:50

is a solid piece of wood.

19:52

So solid not glue together, that

19:54

kind of mitigates the glue issue.

19:56

And you want to look after

19:58

it. So make sure you dry

20:00

it thoroughly after you use it,

20:02

if you wet it, before you

20:04

store it away. So that prevents

20:06

the cracking. And a lot of

20:08

people, they buy plastic because they

20:10

can throw it in the dishwasher.

20:13

But the problem is that at

20:15

high temperatures in that dishwasher, you're

20:17

now increasing the breakdown of that

20:19

plastic. So the next time you

20:21

cut on it, you actually could

20:23

be getting more microplastic. and endocrine

20:25

disruptors like BPA valates on your

20:27

food. So that's actually one of

20:29

the things not to do if

20:31

you have a plastic cutting board

20:33

it. Just hand wash it. Yeah,

20:35

hand wash it. Don't put it

20:37

in the dishwasher. Do you have

20:39

wooden cutting board brands that you

20:41

like? Yeah, several. So there's tree

20:43

board is a good brand. They

20:45

do solid. Mama mangia is another

20:47

one. I feel like there's so

20:49

many more now. If somebody is

20:51

nervous about cutting like meat, even

20:53

with the anti-icrobial thing. Would you

20:55

say like it's okay to keep

20:57

a plastic cutting board for like

20:59

your meat, your fish, or stuff

21:01

like that? Yeah, if you're really

21:03

worried, but you know, the ideal

21:05

situation is get two solid wood

21:07

cutting board, right? One for your

21:10

meat and one for your vegetables.

21:12

Let's talk about water because I'm

21:14

a big big big fan of

21:16

water filtration in the shower and

21:18

on the faucet and I get

21:20

dams from people all the time

21:22

where they're like my water tastes

21:24

great you haven't like tried my

21:26

municipal water I don't need to

21:28

filter it. So what is the

21:30

research show about the quality of

21:32

our water and how it impacts

21:34

our health? So I'm not a

21:36

fear mongera but I do think

21:38

statistics are statistics and we should

21:40

be talking about them. And two

21:42

years ago, the National Geological Survey

21:44

showed that around 45% of drinking

21:46

water as a tap water in

21:48

the US contained Pefas, the forever

21:50

chemicals that we're all trying to

21:52

avoid now, right, from the Teflon

21:54

non-stick cookware because it's been shown

21:56

to increase our risks of certain

21:58

cancers, fertility issues. gain type 2

22:00

diabetes so much more? Well it's

22:02

in our water and you can't

22:05

taste it. So even if your

22:07

water tastes great it still may

22:09

have peafas, it still may have,

22:11

I think the Environmental Working

22:13

Group showed recently that

22:16

there's more than 340 different

22:18

contaminants in our tap water

22:20

and that's through the municipal

22:23

water supplier because the factors

22:25

those suppliers only are required

22:28

to test for 93. different

22:30

contaminants by the EPA. Well,

22:32

there's a lot more than that.

22:35

Do you know when those 93

22:37

were decided on? Years ago, like

22:39

more than 20 years ago, and

22:41

they haven't changed. And they should

22:43

have been changing every year. So

22:45

I think Peafast just got added

22:47

recently, but that's not

22:49

been enacted though, right? So it's

22:51

added, but what does that mean?

22:53

Like, when will the suppliers actually

22:56

start to test? And I think there

22:58

was a study or a report by the New

23:00

York Times that found that a lot

23:02

of the time those standards are breached

23:04

by the municipal water providers anyway.

23:06

I mean it's so interesting because there's

23:09

the chemicals in our water, there's the

23:11

pifa is all that type of stuff,

23:13

but from a bare minimum perspective I'm

23:15

just worried about the chlorine because we

23:18

know now the importance of our microbiome,

23:20

we know how much our microbes impact

23:22

our whole body health, not just our

23:24

gut health. And chlorine is designed to

23:27

kill bacteria. Like that is what we,

23:29

it's not designed for it, but like

23:31

that's what we put it in the

23:34

water to do. So we don't get,

23:36

you know, cholera, which is 10 out

23:38

of 10. I love that. I'm super

23:40

into not getting cholera, but that chlorine

23:42

is, I would imagine, having a really

23:44

negative impact on my gut microbes. Right,

23:46

right. They haven't done studies on that,

23:49

but that would be, that would make

23:51

sense to me. It makes sense to

23:53

me. Anyone who makes out a home

23:55

knows not to use tap water. Why?

23:57

Because of the chlorine. It kills the

23:59

bacteria. that life culture. So that, what

24:01

does that tell you? That's so interesting.

24:04

Okay, so what do you recommend people

24:06

do in terms of filtration? First of

24:08

all, there's no one water filter that

24:10

would suit everybody. So I can't say

24:13

yes, everybody now go out and buy

24:15

this particular water filter because filtration is

24:17

very nuanced. It depends a lot on

24:20

pH of your tap water and also

24:22

what's in your tap water. So certain

24:24

contaminants are harder to remove. and you

24:26

may need systems like reverse osmosis, which

24:29

is kind of like the gold standard

24:31

of filtration. It removes pretty much everything,

24:33

but it will also remove the healthy,

24:35

desirable things like minerals that you do

24:38

want. Plus, it wastes a lot of

24:40

water. So for every litre of drinking

24:42

water, you get out of the RO

24:44

system, you're wasting four to five liters.

24:47

And I live in California where water

24:49

is precious. So for me, that just

24:51

didn't sit right. I did have an

24:54

arrow but I switched. I looked up

24:56

my local tap water. I actually tested

24:58

my tap water. That's like 300 bucks.

25:00

If you don't want to do that

25:03

you can just look it up. So

25:05

go to EWS tap water database. So

25:07

you can type that into Google and

25:09

then you just type in your zip

25:12

code and it will pull up all

25:14

the contaminants that's in your tap water.

25:16

Now you want to look for a

25:18

unit that's been NSF certified to remove

25:21

those contaminants. Okay. That's like, that's very

25:23

straightforward. And then what about shower filter?

25:25

I love shower filters. I love shower

25:27

filters. I love them too. I, so

25:30

I got one, the first time I

25:32

got one was for vanity completely. It

25:34

was when we were living in England

25:37

and the water was so hard and

25:39

my hair was quite literally chunky. Yes.

25:41

got a shower filter and it was

25:43

so nice for my skin and my

25:46

hair and all this but then I

25:48

started thinking about oh you're breathing in

25:50

this steam you're covering your skin with

25:52

all of again the chlorine, the dry

25:55

skin, all of that type of stuff.

25:57

And so now I'm into it for

25:59

the health, but also, like the vanity

26:01

is a good impetus. Absolutely. Yeah, so

26:04

I mean, if we're talking about gut

26:06

microbiome, well, the skin has a microbiome

26:08

too. So chlorine can be affecting that.

26:10

And definitely unfiltered water make certain people's

26:13

skin more dry and hair more dry

26:15

and brittle. For some people have to

26:17

fall out. So I think for vanity

26:20

point of view. There was a study

26:22

that looked at people who took very

26:24

long showers and baths in highly chlorinated

26:26

water. And by the way, it's not

26:29

just chlorine. So when you add chlorine

26:31

or chlorine kind of related products to

26:33

your tap water, it starts to interact

26:35

with the organic matter in the water

26:38

and create byproducts like trihalo methane things.

26:40

These have been linked to increased risks

26:42

of cancer. There was this study that

26:44

looked at people who showered and took

26:47

very long baths, so in excess of

26:49

15 minutes a day, in highly chlorinated

26:51

water or water that contained high trihalomethanes,

26:54

and they had an 80% increased risk

26:56

of bladder cancer compared to those who

26:58

showed and bathed in clean water, non-chlorinated.

27:00

So what should we look for in

27:03

a shower filter? Definitely look for testing

27:05

that it removes chlorine. That would be

27:07

kind of like main concern with shower.

27:09

So it's less like tracking the individual

27:12

things like we're doing for a tap

27:14

water. It's really just get the chlorine

27:16

out. Yeah, because you're not drinking it.

27:18

If you were drinking it, that's different

27:21

like you really want very high standards.

27:23

You don't want heavy metals. Well, heavy

27:25

metals are very kind of large molecules

27:27

where I'm not super concerned about thermal

27:30

absorption because you know the water is

27:32

kind of flowing through whereas with chlorine

27:34

you actually could be breathing it in

27:37

it vaporizes a lot of the root

27:39

of entries actually through inhalation and not

27:41

through the skin. Interesting are there any

27:43

shower filter brands that you like? I

27:46

love aesthetics, so I like, I'm a

27:48

sucker for assessor, so I like Jolie,

27:50

but honestly, but that meets your standards

27:52

for function in addition to having a

27:55

cute form. But there are so many

27:57

great ones that are not like, you

27:59

know, Jolie's expensive. We have the Aquasana

28:01

one, which is not aesthetic, but it

28:04

works well. Exactly. I feel like there's

28:06

so many brands that do meet great

28:08

standards. And if you don't care about

28:11

the aesthetic. that they all can function

28:13

really well. And I will say you

28:15

only, we change our like whatever six

28:17

months, it's like a sort of one

28:20

and done thing pretty much. Like you

28:22

don't have to think about it that

28:24

often, which are my favorite health hacks

28:26

or ones that you like do it.

28:29

And you don't think about it anymore.

28:31

We change our undersink filter. which we

28:33

traveled with one too. We would install

28:35

it in Airbnb's. It's really quick. I

28:38

think people think of water filtration as

28:40

like unless you have the pictures. It's

28:42

really hard and complicated, but it took

28:44

us maybe 10 minutes to just pop

28:47

it in under the thing. What did

28:49

you have? We had a water drop

28:51

that we traveled with. Okay. Yeah. And

28:54

then we have an aquasano one now

28:56

that we're here, which is a little

28:58

bit more intense. And they're not arrow,

29:00

right, right. They are narrow. Okay, yeah,

29:03

so those are easier to install. Otherwise,

29:05

yeah, it's like the whole thing. Yeah,

29:07

right, right. The water wasting of the

29:09

RO systems is also frustrating for me.

29:12

And I also don't like the idea

29:14

of like, if you have an RO

29:16

system, should you be adding minerals back

29:18

in? Yes, ideally. Yeah, that feels like

29:21

I'm just like, why are we taking

29:23

some out to like add it in?

29:25

Right. And also now you've got to

29:27

think about the purity of the purity

29:30

of those rob. What are you adding

29:32

back? You've just filtered your water. What

29:34

are you adding it? What do you

29:37

think of mineral supplementation? I know that's

29:39

kind of like trendy right now and

29:41

a lot of people are saying it.

29:43

It's the cure for everything. We're all

29:46

mineral to fish. Right? Because if you

29:48

eat more plants, I feel like that's

29:50

part of the equation is like if

29:52

you're not eating plants, where are your

29:55

minerals coming from? So plants, I mean,

29:57

just for somebody, they're really rich in

29:59

minerals. Very rich. I guess yeah yeah

30:01

so that's where it's getting from. Because

30:04

when I think of minerals I think

30:06

of like eating dirt. Like the plants

30:08

are grown in the dirt. So that

30:11

makes sense. Exactly. Yeah, that's where the

30:13

roots are taking it all up from.

30:15

I do think people can be deficient

30:17

in minerals, but that's probably because of

30:20

the standard American diet. And if you

30:22

weren't eating that and you're eating a

30:24

lot of plants, I don't really know

30:26

about mineral supplements. It is interesting how

30:29

we're like willing to do almost anything

30:31

to not change our diet. Right. Let's

30:33

go back to the kitchen. There's a

30:35

lot of concern around microwaves. People to

30:38

this day, people will message me and

30:40

be like, is the microwave safe to

30:42

use? I can't believe you're using the

30:44

microwave lids. And I tried to do

30:47

an expose on microwaves years ago, and

30:49

I reached out to all these doctors.

30:51

I reached out to all these engineers,

30:54

these experts in like radio waves and

30:56

all these things. And I tried to

30:58

get anybody to confirm my bias, which

31:00

is not, it was not good journalism,

31:03

because I went in with a very

31:05

strong bias that microwaves were bad. At

31:07

that point, I hadn't been using a

31:09

microwave for years and years and years

31:12

and I cannot get a single person,

31:14

even the most conservative people, to say

31:16

like, using a microwave is bad for

31:18

your health. I'm curious what you think

31:21

about microwaves, both in terms of being

31:23

near them, and then also what they're

31:25

doing to our food. microwaves are harmful

31:28

for our health and I think again

31:30

that comes down to the nuance because

31:32

how many minutes are we really using

31:34

that microwave every day versus let's say

31:37

our phones I'm actually more concerned about

31:39

the health effects of phone addiction Oh,

31:41

then like waves. Oh, that's interesting. So

31:43

like you're more concerned with the health

31:46

effects of phone addiction versus like the

31:48

EMFs that you're getting from your phone.

31:50

For me. Yeah, I mean, for our

31:52

mental health, which impacts our physical health.

31:55

Yeah. There was this really interesting study.

31:57

Now, I don't think it's the best

31:59

study in the world, but they looked

32:01

at women who used phones near bedtime

32:04

and women who had phone addictions and

32:06

those who scrolled for more than five

32:08

minutes before right before bed had a

32:11

five times increased risk of breast cancer.

32:13

Now I don't because do you think

32:15

that was because the sleep quality was

32:17

worse? I think it's more the sleep

32:20

quality I also think as a kind

32:22

of confounding like if you're scrolling that

32:24

close to bed you know maybe you

32:26

don't like interact you know maybe don't

32:29

have like a community and that's kind

32:31

of your communities online and There's so

32:33

many confounding, right? But that's really interesting

32:35

to me, that such an increased risk

32:38

there with phone usage and addiction. So

32:40

it was a three-time increased risk of

32:42

breast cancer if you're addicted to the

32:44

phone. Interesting. Okay, we'll get into EMFs

32:47

in a second, but to linger on

32:49

microwaves. So standing near it. This is

32:51

the thing I think people don't realize,

32:54

right? It's not like a plastic thing

32:56

that just like emits radiation, and the

32:58

radiation is just all leaking out everywhere.

33:00

it's actually designed to contain the microwaves

33:03

inside, right? So there's a metal casing

33:05

and every single microwave has to be

33:07

tested against certain leakage limits. So you

33:09

have to test below that in order

33:12

to be certified to save to be

33:14

sold. This amount is tested at I

33:16

think something like 5 centimeter away from

33:18

the surface of the outside of the

33:21

microwave. And if you ever tested an

33:23

EMF near a microwave, you'll know that

33:25

from a distance away that radiation drops

33:28

down significantly. So let's say 20 inches

33:30

away, that amount is dropped to like

33:32

a hundred of what it is. So

33:34

if you want to use a microwave,

33:37

just walk away, put your food in

33:39

and walk away and make sure your

33:41

microwave is not broken. So that's the

33:43

only time when the radiation could be

33:46

leaking out, because now it's not a

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39:00

Moody for 30% off plus

39:02

a free $60 gift. What

39:05

about what it's doing to your food?

39:07

There's a lot of people are like,

39:10

I'm going to heat my food up

39:12

on the stove because I feel like

39:14

it is preserving the integrity of the

39:16

food more. There is no evidence for

39:18

that. In fact, it's actually quite unscientific

39:20

because all that the microwave is

39:22

doing is just irritating and exciting

39:24

the water particles in your food.

39:26

And some people actually say that

39:28

that's a better way to heat

39:31

your food because it can preserve

39:33

nutrients more. I don't think that

39:35

traditional ways of heating is necessarily

39:37

better. I do find sometimes though

39:39

when I put food in a

39:41

microwave the heating is not even

39:43

so I do have to stir

39:45

through and like do it maybe another

39:47

time. Now one really important thing

39:49

I do want to emphasize is

39:51

if you do use a microwave

39:54

please do not microwave your food

39:56

in plastic so that I do

39:58

feel can be harmful. Microplastic conversation

40:01

is interesting because I think people

40:03

can make the connection very strongly,

40:05

plastic, cutting boards, etc. Like you're

40:07

chopping tiny bits of plastic, you're eating

40:09

them. I think when you're talking about

40:12

wool, but I'm never kind of chipping

40:14

away at the plastic in the container

40:16

that I microwaving it in, why would

40:18

that impact my health negatively? There's over

40:20

10,000 different chemicals that are used in

40:22

the manufacturing of plastic. And these are

40:25

not permanently bound to that

40:27

structure of plastic. So heat,

40:29

acidic food, that can encourage

40:31

leechings of these things like

40:33

thallates, BPA, these are endocrine

40:35

disruptors. They can now start

40:38

to seep into your food.

40:40

But not only that study

40:42

last year showed that just

40:44

three minutes of microwaving

40:46

can release billions of

40:49

nanoparticles into your food. And

40:51

that's from... what's labelled as

40:53

microwave safe plastics. The acidic

40:56

food is interesting. Am I like, is

40:58

that when you get like that tomato

41:00

ring and like your pasta leftovers,

41:02

is that from some sort of

41:04

chemical breakdown? Well, it's because plastic

41:06

is porous and it's the structure

41:08

is not permanent. There's interaction at

41:10

that interface between plastic and your

41:12

food all the time. So yeah,

41:14

if you have curry or tomato

41:17

in your plastic containers, you'll see

41:19

what's happening. The food, the coloring

41:21

is going into the plastic, what's

41:23

coming from the other side, the

41:25

plastic into your food. All right,

41:27

so microwaves, great. Don't do it with

41:29

the plastic. And perhaps also reconsider plastic,

41:31

like if you're not going to get

41:33

rid of all plastic in your storage,

41:35

or whatever, maybe do it first, acidic.

41:38

Food specific right like don't

41:40

keep your salad dressing or

41:42

immediately thinking like we want

41:44

glass bottle ketchup because that's

41:46

quite a certain one hundred

41:48

percent. Yeah, that's interesting

41:50

anything acidic like your

41:52

kombucha The best thing you can do

41:55

in your kitchen is to swap your

41:57

plastic tap aware to glass I did

41:59

that maybe a year ago and it's not

42:01

that expensive there's like some pretty good

42:04

and it's also plastic lid and I

42:06

just don't feel people always like well

42:08

how do you find some and I'm

42:10

like you don't there everything I've seen

42:12

has a plastic lid but I just

42:14

don't fill the food up till the

42:16

top tops I just don't let a

42:18

touch but actually Costco just

42:20

started doing glass with glass lids

42:22

really yes yeah and it's not expensive

42:25

it's something like $70 for a set

42:27

of 20 Okay, the last thing I

42:29

want to touch on in the kitchen

42:31

is sort of another health myth out

42:33

there is that you shouldn't cook with

42:35

olive oil. You cook with olive oil.

42:38

Yes. What does the science say? Gosh,

42:40

I feel like there's so much

42:42

myth around this, right? People say you

42:44

shouldn't cook with olive oil because

42:46

it has a low smoke point.

42:48

There's two problems with that.

42:50

Number one, smoke point is not

42:52

the best way to assess whether

42:55

an oil is safe for cooking.

42:57

What's a better way is

42:59

looking at the oxidative stability.

43:01

What that means is how

43:03

stable that oil is under

43:05

heat to breaking down into

43:07

what's known as harmful polar

43:09

compounds, so things like aldehydes,

43:12

peroxides, things you don't want

43:14

to be eating. And when they put it

43:16

to the test, olive oil actually

43:18

generated the least amount of

43:21

polar compounds compared to oils with

43:23

much higher smoke points. So that

43:25

would be number one and I

43:28

think it probably is because olive

43:30

oil, a good quality olive oil,

43:32

usually very high in polyphenols. So

43:35

those are kind of counteracting the

43:37

polar climate like cancelling them

43:39

out. So I actually like cooking

43:42

with olive oil for that reason.

43:44

And number two, olive oil doesn't

43:46

actually have that low a smoke

43:48

point. So it's low compared to

43:50

something like canola. But it's still

43:52

400 degrees Fahrenheit. Who's cooking on

43:55

the stove at that temperature? Maybe

43:57

a deep frying or baking, but

43:59

salt gets up to what, 250?

44:02

That's it. You're nowhere near

44:04

that smoke point. So those are

44:06

the two myths that I just

44:08

really can't stand seeing. Olive Oil

44:10

is the only oil I really use

44:12

in my kitchen. I'll do like a

44:14

sesame oil for finishing or things like

44:16

that, but for cooking. I'm almost exclusively

44:19

using olive oil. Same. That's what I

44:21

use. Sometimes I'll use avocado oil if

44:23

I'm cooking food that needs a more

44:25

of like a neutral taste because sometimes

44:27

you can really taste that olive oil.

44:30

I just feel like it's always good.

44:32

I love the flavor so much. But

44:34

some people like, oh, all of taste

44:36

in the curry, not quite sure about

44:38

that. What does the data show right now

44:40

about alternative sweeteners? I like to ask this

44:42

periodically on the podcast because I do think

44:45

it's evolving and we're studying it more and

44:47

more so I like to just kind of

44:49

check in. I feel like people have a

44:51

general sense that like aspertam sucralose are maybe

44:53

not as ideal. I am talking about the

44:55

ones that have the health halo around them

44:57

right now like arithritol, stevia, alulose, monk fruit.

44:59

What do we know about them? That's really

45:01

interesting so I like them. So I like

45:03

them. because I do feel like they can

45:06

be helpful in small amounts in a diet

45:08

where you're trying to reduce that blood sugar

45:10

spike from sugar. Now, Aristotle

45:12

had bad press. I don't know if you're

45:14

familiar with it. Maybe a couple of years

45:17

ago there was this study done at

45:19

the Cleveland Clinic, right? Very reputable

45:21

center. And what they kind of

45:23

released to the world was that.

45:25

Eberithritol was associated with

45:28

an increased risk of heart

45:30

attacks. Yeah, I stopped drinking

45:32

beverages that had Eberithritol in

45:34

it after that study. Right, okay. You're

45:37

going to tell me I was wrong.

45:39

So this is why I say don't

45:41

panic and go straight to the sauce

45:43

and look at the study. Well, look

45:45

at what they did. And what they did

45:47

was they did not even ask these participants

45:50

what they ate. So the

45:52

Eberithritol wasn't necessarily eating it.

45:55

A rithotose is actually made in our

45:57

bodies. And if you have metabolic

45:59

syndrome... you actually make more

46:01

irritable. And we all know

46:03

that if you have metabolic

46:06

syndrome, you're more likely to

46:08

have a heart attack. Right. So

46:10

they measured blood levels of

46:12

irritable in those who had

46:14

heart attacks. So of course,

46:16

you would see that correlation.

46:18

It's a little bit of a

46:20

no-brainer, right? But why did they

46:22

not take a survey of the

46:24

diet? That feels like poor science for

46:27

a reputable institution. I know, I was

46:29

actually really shocked, so shocked that I

46:31

had to write a subject about it

46:33

because I just felt like it was

46:36

doing irritable a disservice and I have

46:38

no shares in original products, but I

46:40

felt like it was a good alternative

46:42

for people that was being pushed to

46:44

the side and now people are scared

46:46

to use it. And another thing that they

46:48

did was they gave irritatol a lot

46:51

of irritol. to people something like

46:53

30 grams, which is, what's

46:55

that, like seven teaspoons

46:58

of rutital. And then

47:00

they took blood samples from

47:02

these people and dropped

47:04

it into a pea dish and saw

47:06

that the blood increased clotting,

47:09

had increased clotting and

47:11

said, irritable cause these

47:13

increased heart disease risk

47:16

because it made, yeah, a

47:18

major blood clot. Okay. Well, number

47:20

one, I don't think anyone ever

47:22

eats that much Irithritole in one

47:24

go, like seven teaspoons of it.

47:27

That's super sweet. And I feel like

47:29

they should have measured clotting markers in

47:31

the person, like the human, and

47:34

not, like taking it out of context,

47:36

and then just kind of. So

47:38

I, yeah, there's so many criticisms

47:40

of that study. I'm not a

47:42

fan of that study, and I

47:44

still continue to use Irithritole. Do

47:46

you? I feel like there's like there's like.

47:49

Sometimes I have this general sense of like

47:51

the stuff's too good to be true though

47:53

like it feels Right unfair that I get

47:55

to like have my little soda and yes

47:57

that something is going to come out at

47:59

some point down the line. Yeah, I

48:01

feel like too much is probably not

48:04

good. Okay. So we don't really know

48:06

the long-term effects of these on our

48:08

gut microbiome yet. And I feel like

48:10

that's my biggest question, Mark. So

48:13

we do know a lot of

48:15

them give G.I. side effects. So

48:17

some people actually feel bloated from

48:19

them, especially, you know, with sugar

48:21

alcohols, like Zylatol can do that

48:23

more than irritotol. The new kid

48:25

on the block is allulose. I actually

48:27

like the data I've seen so

48:29

far. There was actually this study

48:31

that showed that if you

48:34

consume allulose with a carb-heavy

48:36

meal, it can reduce that

48:38

blood sugar spike. And they

48:40

hypothesized because it worked on

48:42

GLP1. So you know, I'm not saying

48:44

go out there and eat allulose

48:47

every day. I think in moderation,

48:49

these things can be part of

48:51

a healthy diet. Now, where the

48:53

problem is, though, is that people

48:55

think it's healthy. And then it

48:57

just now starts to feed that

48:59

reward system and they eat more

49:01

and more and more. Now the

49:04

overall consumption of that food increases.

49:06

I'm sorry, but like, you know,

49:08

eating 10 cookies a day is

49:10

never going to be healthy, no

49:12

matter whether you use irritable

49:14

or allulos, right? Because there's other things,

49:16

it's a packaged food. So for me,

49:18

it's the healthy soda is my like

49:20

Achilles heel. Like would you say one

49:23

a day of like a poppy or

49:25

an olive pop type situation would be

49:27

okay or would you be wanting it

49:29

to actually be like special treat

49:31

territory for me? In an ideal

49:33

world special treat but I think

49:35

that if you're making that choice

49:37

every day one poppy instead of

49:39

one coke definitely make that swap

49:42

so I think we've got to meet

49:44

you where you're at right like what

49:46

are you swapping it for and if

49:48

it's more beneficial? I think that's still a

49:50

good thing. Is there a hierarchy at all?

49:52

Like, do you think monk fruit is better

49:55

than tibia or ruthedral is better? Like, allulose

49:57

is better. If we're choosing, are they all kind

49:59

of the same? difficult and I like a

50:01

combination of all of them if I had

50:03

to say like if I had to choose

50:05

so this is what I have in my

50:07

home right I have all of them and

50:09

I just rotate through them okay so then

50:12

you don't have too much exposure to one

50:14

oh that's smart that's very smart

50:16

okay let's go in to red light

50:18

therapy red light therapy is another one

50:20

of those things that I feel like is

50:22

this too good to be true because

50:24

right now everybody on the internet says

50:27

it's gonna help with your skin, it's

50:29

going to help with your hair, it's going

50:31

to help with your pain, it's going to

50:33

help with your energy, it's going to help

50:35

with your sleep, it's going to help with

50:37

everything, and I just worry that it's going

50:39

to come out later, that not only does

50:42

it not help with these things, but it

50:44

maybe harms these things, there's famously, I read

50:46

this thing that in the 1920s, we were

50:48

using x-rays for beauty treatments, and people were

50:51

like, oh, it's the new greatest thing, just

50:53

get x-rays, just get x-rays, Is there

50:55

a chance that we're going to feel

50:57

like this about red light therapy in

50:59

like 20 years? Well, I don't have

51:01

a crystal ball. So I can't guarantee

51:04

you the future, but I can tell

51:06

you that red light therapy is not

51:08

new. It's been around for over 50

51:10

years now. So I think that if

51:12

it's been around for that long and

51:14

being used for that long, we should

51:16

have seen something by now if it's

51:18

going to cause harm. That said.

51:20

there is still a nuance here,

51:23

right? There's so many different types

51:25

of devices on the market that,

51:27

yes, some can cause harm. I can't

51:29

tell you that they're all going to

51:32

be safe. But to your point about

51:34

it being almost like snake oil,

51:36

like, how can it do that many

51:38

things? Well, it's getting to

51:40

the mitochondria, which is, I

51:42

feel like, increasingly we're realizing

51:45

how important the mitochondria is.

51:47

for chronic diseases. I feel like

51:49

it's at the root of

51:51

so many chronic health challenges.

51:54

Insulin resistance, type 2 diabetes,

51:56

even people are saying, like, you

51:58

know, aging is mitochondrial. getting older

52:00

and less optimal in function. Why

52:03

would that be? Can you explain

52:05

sort of the mechanism of action

52:07

that the mitochondria would be having

52:09

these broad effects to somebody who

52:12

didn't even know what a mitochondria

52:14

was? Yeah, so the mitochondria is,

52:16

if you remember, from your biology

52:18

days, in high school. So it's

52:20

the powerhouse inside every single cell,

52:23

right, apart from red blood cells.

52:25

every other cell in your

52:27

body has mychondria. And some tissues

52:29

have more than others because they

52:32

require and use a lot more

52:34

energy. So the brain, the liver,

52:36

the heart, very very dense

52:39

in mychondria, like we're thinking

52:41

thousands in excess of thousands

52:43

of mychondria per cell. So

52:45

now if those numbers decrease or

52:48

if each mychondria can only... generate

52:50

80% of the energy that they

52:52

were generating, let's say, 10 years

52:54

ago, that organ is now not

52:56

able to function as well. So

52:59

your brain might start to become

53:01

more foggy. Your liver may not

53:03

be able to detoxify as well.

53:05

And in your skin, the collagen,

53:07

the cells that produce collagen

53:09

now can't produce as much

53:11

collagen. And so that's why

53:14

red-like therapy has been kind of

53:16

researched, actually, to do all those

53:18

things. And it first was put

53:20

on a map by NASA who

53:22

noticed that the astronauts who

53:24

were using red light to grow

53:26

food plants in space, their injuries

53:29

healed faster than astronauts

53:31

who were using different

53:33

light wavelengths. Because the red

53:35

light was impacting the mitochondria in

53:37

a way that made it heal

53:39

the wound. Yeah, so if you

53:41

think about the fact that those

53:43

cells have more energy, they now

53:45

have more energy to heal, but

53:47

not only that. Redlie therapy has

53:49

also been shown to improve blood

53:51

flow. So it does that by increasing

53:53

nitric oxide. So if you have

53:55

more blood flow, that's great for

53:57

any healing tissue, right? healing works. Are

54:00

mitochondrial moving around our body all the

54:02

time or is it like you have

54:04

your knee mitochondrial and so if you

54:06

do the red light on your knee

54:08

it's going to work on those mitochondrial

54:10

make your knee better? That's so that's

54:12

such a great question I love the

54:14

question because mitochondrial do not move but they

54:16

talk to each other. Oh yeah so

54:18

that's what's really interesting. Our bodies are

54:20

weird. I know it's so smart I

54:22

love it so mitochondrial can send signals

54:24

to each other and they do it

54:26

through interleukins like these are chemical messengers

54:28

messengers in our blood. So if you remember

54:30

back to like the last time you

54:32

were sick, you probably felt lousy,

54:35

right? Didn't want to do anything.

54:37

No energy to setting on the

54:39

couch. That's your mitochondria.

54:41

Mitochondria sensing is what's called

54:43

a cell danger response. We

54:45

are under danger. We're being

54:47

attacked as a virus. One way I

54:49

can get rid of this virus and

54:51

starve it is by ramping down energy.

54:53

And I don't want to help this

54:55

virus survive. So I'm going to... downgrade

54:58

the energy level and not let

55:00

this virus take hold. Wait, so

55:02

then if you use red light

55:05

therapy when you were sick, would

55:07

that make the virus more likely

55:09

to take hold? Well, that's really

55:12

interesting, right? There's this intensivist, he

55:14

actually did his own research on

55:16

his patients, but also shared research

55:19

that near infrared can modulate the

55:21

immune system. And what modulating means

55:24

is you're not necessarily

55:26

hyperstimulating. bringing the immune

55:28

system back into balance.

55:30

So whatever needs increasing

55:32

gets increased, whatever needs reduced,

55:34

gets reduced, and you're not getting

55:37

that situation where everything is just

55:39

like increasing and booming. So you

55:41

can use it when you're sick

55:43

to positive effect. Yeah, so there

55:45

actually, there were these studies that

55:48

were done during COVID that when

55:50

they applied red light therapy vests.

55:52

So it's specifically near infralide. to

55:54

patients with COVID on

55:57

ICU. Those patients had

55:59

quicker. recovery and discharge time

56:01

from those. Would one use for red

56:03

light be if you kind of feel

56:05

like you're a little bit under the

56:07

weather, like you've had a lot of

56:09

exposure, you could do a red light

56:11

session? I definitely do that. And

56:13

where would you want to put it? Or would

56:16

you just want a whole body

56:18

exposure? That's kind of like a

56:20

two-part question, right? Number one, because

56:22

we said the mitochondrial conduit talk

56:24

to each other, there is systemic

56:26

benefits, right? Now you're activating these

56:29

chemical messengers that could now go

56:31

to the places where they need

56:33

to go to, and they have

56:35

done studies where people with depression

56:37

and back pain, who used it on

56:39

the back only, noticed an improvement

56:42

in their depressive symptoms. And of

56:44

course... there's a confounding factor here

56:46

right if you're not in pain

56:49

you're not going to be depressed

56:51

as much but that is still

56:53

very interesting does suggest that there's

56:55

systemic effects of red light therapy

56:57

so that's number one like I

56:59

almost feel like if you shine it anywhere

57:01

it could do something but number two is

57:04

where if I have a tickly throat or

57:06

sore throat that's kind of where I would

57:08

generally aim it because you do have

57:10

some local effects of you know

57:12

lowering the inflammation honestly I have

57:14

heard so many people say like they

57:16

put it over their sinuses to help

57:19

with that nasal congestion and if you

57:21

think about the fact that that acute

57:23

inflammation right there's a lot of

57:25

inflammation there when you're congested that's

57:27

helped them as well. It does

57:29

sound like snake oil because It

57:32

can do so much, but I

57:34

think it's because it's tackling that

57:36

very, very root of so many

57:38

problems. And you've mentioned near infrared

57:40

and then there's red light. Do

57:42

we need both? Do they have

57:45

different effects? They have different effects.

57:47

And the main difference between the

57:49

two is that red doesn't penetrate

57:51

as near infrared. So near

57:53

infrared can penetrate into tissue

57:55

much deeper. So red has generally

57:57

been studied to be great for...

58:00

things like skin. So if you

58:02

want to, you know, support the

58:04

collagen, if you want to tackle

58:06

acne in the skin, red, sometimes

58:08

knee infrared can be great for

58:11

that too. But if you want to

58:13

deal with something deeper, for example,

58:15

knee pain, muscle ache, you

58:17

want knee infrared because that

58:19

penetrates deeper. And is it bad if

58:21

you use both? Like if I'm working

58:24

on my skin because I want... So

58:26

I want red light there. Is it

58:28

bad if there's also, because a lot of

58:30

the devices have both? I don't think

58:33

it's bad. No. Because I think it

58:35

can only be good to have both

58:37

actually. Is there like worry about it

58:39

going too deep though? Like I think

58:41

about with the hair growth ones, the

58:43

helmets, it going into my brain and

58:45

having some sort of negative effect.

58:47

I feel like that's a good

58:49

thing because there's actually active research

58:51

on red light therapy. in

58:53

neurodegenerative diseases, so things

58:55

like Parkinson's, Alzheimer's, and what's

58:57

really interesting is that these

58:59

tiny case studies of people

59:01

with Parkinson's, where they're not

59:03

even treating the brain, they're

59:05

treating the abdomen, they're putting

59:07

reli therapy to the abdomen,

59:09

and they're showing improvement in

59:12

their motor symptoms. So that would be

59:14

coming from the brain. So that really

59:16

suggests to us that there

59:18

is this gut brain access.

59:20

Interestingly, a lot of Parkinson's

59:22

patients, their first symptoms, are

59:25

gut symptoms. So they don't

59:27

start with... motor symptoms or brain symptoms,

59:29

they have constipation that's very common first

59:32

symptom. Maybe that's where the pathology starts

59:34

and then it gets into the brain.

59:36

We're making the distinction between red or

59:39

near infrared. Is there anything else we

59:41

should be looking for to make sure

59:43

that our red light device is effective?

59:45

Oh yeah, I feel like dose is really

59:48

important, right? So if you go and buy

59:50

a magnesium supplement, you're looking at the dose

59:52

on the back of that packet, but

59:54

people are willing to just buy any. red

59:56

light therapy devices without checking

59:59

what the wave this, what the irradiance

1:00:01

is, has it been tested to

1:00:03

deliver that irradiance? Otherwise you're just

1:00:05

blindly... Wait, what's a radiance for

1:00:08

somebody who's like never heard that

1:00:10

word? Yeah, great question. So irradiance

1:00:13

is basically, think of it as

1:00:15

the intensity of the light, but

1:00:17

it's essentially the power of that light,

1:00:20

and that's kind of the dose, right?

1:00:22

So the higher the intens, the less

1:00:24

time you need to treat a

1:00:26

particular tissue because you get to

1:00:28

that dose much faster. And can

1:00:30

you overdo it? Like is too

1:00:32

much radiance and you leave it

1:00:34

on maybe for too long? Is

1:00:36

that bad? It depends on what

1:00:38

tissue. There's new ones again. I'm

1:00:40

all about the new ones, but

1:00:43

for example on the skin, they've

1:00:45

shown that if you get too much, you

1:00:47

may not see the benefit. So

1:00:49

that's kind of the bad. What

1:00:51

do you mean you when it's

1:00:53

like you may not you may

1:00:55

not see the improvement in your

1:00:57

wrinkles if you use too much?

1:01:00

That's interesting. Yeah, the ideal dose

1:01:02

is like 10 jewels and so

1:01:04

usually for a device around 100

1:01:06

milliwatts per centimeter you want to

1:01:08

be getting about two three minutes.

1:01:10

That's it. So this is why it's

1:01:12

so important to know the irradiance that

1:01:14

or the power intensity because If you

1:01:17

know that, then then you can calculate

1:01:19

how much you should be using on

1:01:21

your... Or ask ChatTVT or something.

1:01:23

It feels complicated. I'm just like,

1:01:25

I feel like I was browsing

1:01:28

some red light therapy device websites

1:01:30

in preparation for this interview. And

1:01:32

they're not saying, like, here's the

1:01:34

irradians, here's exactly how long you

1:01:37

should be using it. That's the

1:01:39

problem. Because they're not testing. So

1:01:41

that would be a red flag

1:01:43

to you if they're not saying

1:01:46

this. Okay. Or they would say

1:01:48

something like, you know, more than

1:01:50

100. What is more than 100?

1:01:52

Is it 500? Is a thousand?

1:01:55

Like, that is a total red

1:01:57

flag. What did you do to

1:01:59

verify? that they third-party tested this

1:02:01

too, right? And not just using

1:02:04

an optical light meter in

1:02:06

the bedroom, where there's like light

1:02:08

everywhere that you could be picking

1:02:10

up, that's not accurate. And

1:02:12

irradiance is part of why we

1:02:14

can't take the face mask and put

1:02:16

it on our head and expect hair

1:02:18

loss to mitigate it. Can you explain

1:02:21

that because my sister? If you're listening,

1:02:23

Katie, this is for you. Because she does

1:02:25

that and she's like, it's great because I

1:02:27

already have this face one. Why would I

1:02:29

not just put it on my head for

1:02:31

hair growth? Right. And I want to ask, like,

1:02:33

has it worked for Katie? I mean, she has

1:02:35

stunning. I think the hair growth thing, it's interesting

1:02:37

because I think both, I want to do

1:02:40

a podcast on this. Is hair loss going

1:02:42

up maybe because of autoimmune disease is going

1:02:44

up? Are we just talking about it a

1:02:47

ton now and it's become another one

1:02:49

of these like false beauty standards where

1:02:51

it's like oh my my sister has

1:02:53

insane hair it's gorgeous and so like

1:02:55

it looks fine you know okay so

1:02:57

she doesn't even need to yeah but

1:02:59

I would say you know the study

1:03:01

show for hair the red light therapy

1:03:04

does have to be very high

1:03:06

dose most studies are using lasers

1:03:08

so that I mean that's like

1:03:10

the highest dose you're gonna get

1:03:12

I wouldn't put the red light masks

1:03:14

on the scalp for hair because those

1:03:16

masks are generally between 20

1:03:18

to 30 milliwatt per centimeter

1:03:20

square in radiance if you

1:03:22

test them. That's not going to

1:03:24

do anything for hair. But that's

1:03:27

good for skin. It's good for

1:03:29

skin because the skin needs very little.

1:03:31

Okay. But don't put it anywhere else.

1:03:33

You can't put over your knees. it's

1:03:35

going to do nothing because it's not

1:03:37

going to penetrate down. So 20 to

1:03:39

30 great first skin, what number would

1:03:41

we be looking for for hair? I

1:03:43

would say between 100 to 150. And

1:03:45

what would we be looking for for

1:03:47

like knee pain? Around that age. Would

1:03:49

100 to 150 be like any sort

1:03:51

of non-cosmatic thing we'd be wanting to

1:03:53

be in that range? If you want

1:03:55

it to penetrate, yeah, that's kind of

1:03:57

the range. So near and bred and

1:03:59

then also... 100 to 150. Yes.

1:04:01

Okay, cool. Does the data support

1:04:03

it for hair growth? 100% but

1:04:05

for a very specific type of

1:04:08

hair loss called androgenic

1:04:10

alopecia. So that's male pattern

1:04:12

or female pattern loss. So

1:04:14

that's more kind of the

1:04:17

hormone related hair loss, right?

1:04:19

So hair loss, there's so

1:04:21

many different reasons like thyroid,

1:04:23

micro nutrient deficiency, like there's so

1:04:26

many different reasons. your deficient iron,

1:04:28

that's the reason for your hair

1:04:30

loss. I don't think rare life

1:04:33

therapy is the treatment, right? It

1:04:35

may be it was simulated a

1:04:38

little bit, but that's the wrong

1:04:40

tool, right? You should just go

1:04:42

and get more iron. But

1:04:44

with this particular type of

1:04:47

androgenic alopecia, it's basically where

1:04:49

this kind of excess of

1:04:51

a testosterone called diodrotestosterone pushes

1:04:53

the hair follicles into the

1:04:55

phase of non-growth and you

1:04:58

know, fallout. Red-like therapy has been

1:05:00

shown to improve blood flow and potentially

1:05:02

reduce that level in the hair follicles.

1:05:04

And that's why it can work so

1:05:06

well for this particular time. I'm genuinely

1:05:08

confused how masterclass gets literally

1:05:10

the absolute top people to teach every single

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See terms for details. Oh, that's

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interesting. Yeah. Is there worry about

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that we're stimulating them too much and

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we only have so much mitochondrial power

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over the course of our lifetime and

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we're kind of like it'll all have

1:09:50

positive benefits until we're 60 and then

1:09:52

it's like super downhill because we've kind

1:09:54

of like used up there. Oh, that's

1:09:57

so interesting. I feel like it's the

1:09:59

opposite. Okay. Because anything that

1:10:01

stresses you, actually stimulates

1:10:04

your body to make more

1:10:06

mitochondria, and actually stimulates

1:10:08

your body to get rid of

1:10:10

poor functioning mitochondria. It's called

1:10:13

autophagy. Like, I mean,

1:10:15

we're getting cells that are senescent,

1:10:17

not so helpful anymore. And then

1:10:19

generating new mitochondria, what's called

1:10:22

mitophagy, which are higher in

1:10:24

function. This is why exercise

1:10:26

is so good for us. When

1:10:28

you're exercising, you're sending a

1:10:30

stress signal, but it's good

1:10:32

stress to the body to

1:10:34

make more mitochondria. When your heat

1:10:36

stress, cold stress, anything like

1:10:39

that actually pushes the mitochondria

1:10:41

to say, okay, I've kind of got

1:10:43

to level up now, I've got to do

1:10:46

better, and I actually think it's a good

1:10:48

thing. Okay, so even over time, even if

1:10:50

we use it for 40, 50 years, you

1:10:52

don't expect to see negative results. Don't think

1:10:55

of it as the battery, like the battery,

1:10:57

you know, iPhones, that kind of degenerates and

1:10:59

just goes to nothing. I think that you

1:11:01

can do things to lengthen that battery life,

1:11:04

if you like. I know you've looked into

1:11:06

some of the data around hair loss and

1:11:08

hair growth. Do you think that... more people

1:11:10

are experiencing hair loss right now than

1:11:12

ever before or do you think we're

1:11:14

just talking about it more slash people

1:11:17

are able to sell things to help

1:11:19

fix it so they want us to

1:11:21

talk about it. Right, yeah there is

1:11:23

definitely that but I do think that

1:11:25

COVID through a span and works for

1:11:27

hair because I did see that a lot

1:11:29

with people and I feel like that is tied

1:11:31

to a mighta-country again I know we're

1:11:33

talking about that a lot but we

1:11:36

know specifically that COVID the virus

1:11:38

targets the mitochondria. So that's

1:11:40

why the long COVID syndrome was

1:11:42

the symptom. Extreme fatigue. Oh,

1:11:44

so would red light help with

1:11:47

long COVID potentially? There are studies

1:11:49

on that now. Yes. Oh, interesting.

1:11:51

Is red light therapy helpful for

1:11:53

thyroid support? Oh, yes. So there

1:11:55

are lots of studies now on

1:11:57

red light therapy in thyroid, but

1:11:59

particularly... they were using lasers in

1:12:01

these studies. So there's one very

1:12:03

notable study out of Brazil where

1:12:06

they actually reversed got people off

1:12:08

thyroid medications. Now I want to

1:12:10

kind of preface this by saying if

1:12:12

you're on thyroid medications please don't

1:12:15

just come off. It's really important

1:12:17

that you work with your doctor

1:12:19

if you're using red light therapy

1:12:21

because what can happen is let's

1:12:23

say it's working. and your dose needs

1:12:25

reducing, your doctor needs to supervise that

1:12:28

as you do in a responsible and

1:12:30

safe way. So I made my own

1:12:32

red light therapy device and

1:12:34

I've had so many testimonials

1:12:37

from our customers who have used

1:12:39

it and this is LED based

1:12:41

really therapy and you definitely need

1:12:43

something powerful because you need that

1:12:46

red light to penetrate. But we've

1:12:48

seen people reduce their thyroid

1:12:50

medications, come off medications and

1:12:53

also... lower their antibodies. I have

1:12:55

collected 30 plus report case

1:12:57

reports that I plan to write up

1:12:59

one day. It's very very exciting to see.

1:13:02

And that's why we put that disclaimer, please

1:13:04

work with your doctor if you

1:13:06

have direct conditions. It's not because

1:13:08

it's harmful, it's because it could...

1:13:10

help us too much. Yeah, you

1:13:12

might need to now think about

1:13:14

medication reduction. Is there an amount

1:13:17

of time or like a weekly

1:13:19

protocol if you're looking to use

1:13:21

it for thyroid health? I think

1:13:23

it depends on the irradiance again,

1:13:25

right? Like I keep going back

1:13:27

to that because that's the dose.

1:13:29

Something around 100, so loombox, what

1:13:31

I made, 100 to 150. I usually

1:13:33

say three times a week, just get

1:13:35

it in front of your neck. I

1:13:37

timed it to... end at 12 minutes

1:13:39

so that it delivers like the perfect

1:13:42

dose across a big range of things. So

1:13:44

that would be like a great place

1:13:46

to start and then you want to

1:13:48

test your thyroid function six weeks later

1:13:50

and see what happens. And then the

1:13:52

last thing I want to touch on

1:13:54

for red light is hormonal related

1:13:56

stuff like cramps endometriosis PCOS if

1:13:58

we put it over our uterus

1:14:01

ovaries like that area, can it

1:14:03

penetrate deep enough to help with

1:14:05

that stuff? If you have enough

1:14:07

irradiance and the right wavelength. So

1:14:09

near infrared can, at the right

1:14:11

irradiance it can. So there's a study

1:14:13

out of Korea that showed that women

1:14:15

who have menstrual cramps who use

1:14:18

near infrared over their belly. their

1:14:20

cramps reduced. And again, I've seen that like

1:14:22

first hand with so many people. My own

1:14:24

daughter uses it for her cramps. Endometriosis, I

1:14:26

feel like they're kind of like, we can

1:14:29

do surgery every few years to cut

1:14:31

all the, but they're not, or

1:14:33

you can go on birth control,

1:14:35

but they're not, they're not giving

1:14:37

people a ton of options. So

1:14:39

I'm kind of like, I don't

1:14:41

know if there's research on this

1:14:43

yet, but like if it could

1:14:45

actually stop that. access tissue growth.

1:14:47

It would be so interesting. Yeah,

1:14:49

so I don't know about that.

1:14:51

But it could help with the

1:14:53

symptoms. I do know about pain

1:14:55

relief and inflammation. That's the only

1:14:57

kind of like the extent to

1:14:59

which I've researched that topic, but

1:15:01

that would be a really interesting.

1:15:03

I know I feel like we

1:15:06

need to figure that is EMFs.

1:15:08

There's a lot of people

1:15:10

on one side of things who are like

1:15:12

5G is killing us, the Wi-Fi is killing

1:15:15

us, we've never had this much exposure

1:15:17

before, and then there's people on

1:15:19

the other side, my own husband

1:15:21

included, who's like, the government tests

1:15:23

this stuff, he runs a technology

1:15:25

company where they have devices and

1:15:27

he's like, the amount of testing

1:15:29

we have to do on our

1:15:31

devices to even be able to

1:15:33

sell them is wild. So whenever

1:15:35

I'm like, keep your phone away

1:15:37

from your head, why you're so

1:15:39

he's like. and I'm going to

1:15:41

sound like a broken record, but

1:15:43

it's new once. So we have large

1:15:46

studies that have shown that people

1:15:48

who use the phone right next

1:15:50

to their head, making phone calls

1:15:52

for thousands of hours, may have an

1:15:54

increased risk of certain types

1:15:56

of brain tumors and acoustic

1:15:58

neuroma, which is... tumor of

1:16:00

the hearing nerve. But we also

1:16:02

have large studies that show

1:16:05

no increased risk. So the

1:16:07

data is very conflicting and

1:16:09

if you throw into that

1:16:11

mix the fact that there

1:16:13

are industry sponsored studies and

1:16:15

those are 90% more likely

1:16:18

to show no increased risk

1:16:20

of anything or any harm,

1:16:22

now that water really gets

1:16:24

very muddy. So I kind

1:16:26

of look at all the

1:16:28

studies as a collection and

1:16:31

also I look to our

1:16:33

official health organizations, right? WHO,

1:16:35

FDA. I know the trust in

1:16:38

them. It's being debated

1:16:40

right now, but even they

1:16:42

are confused I feel

1:16:44

like because we've got

1:16:46

in the IAC, the

1:16:48

international agency on research on

1:16:51

cancer, that's an arm of

1:16:53

WHO, right? In 2011. They classified

1:16:55

EMF as a possible carcinogen, so

1:16:57

class 2B. And what that means

1:16:59

is there is some evidence

1:17:02

to warrant concern and further

1:17:04

research, but there is not

1:17:06

enough evidence to call it a

1:17:08

carcinogen yet. And that's because

1:17:10

of this conflict that for every

1:17:13

one study you find that shows

1:17:15

increased harm, there's one that shows

1:17:17

that doesn't. But then in 2024,

1:17:20

the WHO the WHO itself released

1:17:22

a report, I think based on

1:17:24

a systematic. research that showed their

1:17:26

conclusion anyway was that there is

1:17:28

no increased cancer risk from radio

1:17:31

frequency waves from your phone

1:17:33

and the FDA also takes that

1:17:35

position so very similar to your

1:17:37

husband like there's no evidence I

1:17:39

think that there is smoke we

1:17:42

just don't know where the virus the

1:17:44

nuance is who are we talking about?

1:17:46

Are we talking about children within a

1:17:48

skull? Are we talking about pregnant

1:17:50

women? Are we talking about people?

1:17:53

who maybe have a very high

1:17:55

toxic load from other things, maybe

1:17:57

they have an underlying infection already.

1:18:00

Are those people more prone to EMF?

1:18:02

I think so. Via what mechanism of

1:18:04

action? What would be happening in their

1:18:06

bodies? So for a child, right? If

1:18:09

you just think about the body mass.

1:18:11

So if you think about the studies

1:18:13

that did show a harm, a lot

1:18:15

of them are animal studies. What they're

1:18:18

doing is exposing the full body of

1:18:20

that rat to EMF. That's not how

1:18:22

we are exposed to EMF. We're

1:18:24

holding it somewhere. One part of

1:18:26

our body that's more exposed in

1:18:28

the rest. That rat's getting like

1:18:31

full exposure everywhere. So smaller

1:18:33

body mass, there's more exposure.

1:18:36

There's more body-wide exposure. So

1:18:38

if you think about a baby or

1:18:40

a child, there's more likelihood, like

1:18:42

her body mass of that. Like a

1:18:44

phone is half the baby's body. Right,

1:18:47

exactly. And also their skulls are much

1:18:49

thinner. I feel like our skull does

1:18:51

protect our brain, but there are

1:18:53

some mechanistic studies that should

1:18:56

have shown. EMF may open up blood

1:18:58

brain barrier. right so that's one

1:19:00

mechanism and then it may activate

1:19:02

these channels on our cell membranes

1:19:04

so when they open they allow

1:19:07

more calcium into the cell and

1:19:09

that's actually one way we kill

1:19:11

our own cells the cells program

1:19:13

death for itself like oh I'm

1:19:15

no I don't want to be

1:19:17

alive I'm causing more harm they're

1:19:19

good they've influx calcium but if

1:19:21

you're doing that when you shouldn't

1:19:24

be doing it then you're necessarily

1:19:26

killing cells potentially None of this is

1:19:28

kind of set in stone. This

1:19:30

is all mechanistic studies, but what

1:19:33

is really interesting is that when they

1:19:35

put EMF in a mix of an

1:19:37

environment that's highly toxic, so let's

1:19:39

say a cell that's bathed with

1:19:42

other toxins, the EMF now causes

1:19:44

more cell damage. Okay, so that's

1:19:46

to your point of like, if

1:19:48

you already are in

1:19:51

a sensitive body for

1:19:53

whatever reason, this might...

1:19:55

have more of an

1:19:58

impact on are real,

1:20:00

but for healthy people who don't have

1:20:02

symptoms, I think that also can be

1:20:04

a reality, right? That some people are

1:20:07

just not as if affected by it.

1:20:09

And your husband is absolutely right. Like

1:20:11

this stuff is heavily regulated. In fact,

1:20:13

if you go to your phone, like

1:20:16

it will tell you what the specific

1:20:18

EMF is being tested to, right? The

1:20:20

level is being tested to because that's

1:20:22

a regulation. It is there to protect.

1:20:24

We do have regulations to protect us.

1:20:26

Now is that bar set too high

1:20:29

for some people who are sensitive? Maybe.

1:20:31

And maybe we need a different bar

1:20:33

or maybe different devices for that group

1:20:35

of people. Okay, I want to get into

1:20:37

some little nitty gritty stuff. Some

1:20:39

people in line say that if you have

1:20:41

your phone plugged in, it's releasing more EMFs

1:20:44

and you shouldn't, like the one thing you

1:20:46

shouldn't do is like sleep with your phone

1:20:48

plugged in by your head? Yes, I agree

1:20:50

with that. Okay. I actually think, you

1:20:52

know, because there is that smoke, right,

1:20:55

so there's the potential, and I come

1:20:57

from the UK, where, you know, we take

1:20:59

a precautionary approach to everything.

1:21:01

So if there's hint of

1:21:03

something being harmful, then we take

1:21:05

precaution. We don't panic, but we

1:21:07

take precautions. Are there... You keep

1:21:09

calm and carry on. Right, exactly.

1:21:11

So we, you know, let's think

1:21:14

about what we can do to

1:21:16

reduce exposure while still carrying on

1:21:18

with our lives. So what can you do?

1:21:20

Well, when you're sleeping, you're definitely not talking on

1:21:22

the phone. You don't need to use it. So

1:21:24

why have it in your bedroom? Because it's my

1:21:26

alarm clock. Because people are always like, because it

1:21:28

might be an emergency in the middle of the

1:21:31

night. I'm like, first of all, you can put

1:21:33

your ring around like loud and put it in

1:21:35

the other room. But second, I'm like, when was

1:21:37

the last time that happened? Right. And they're like,

1:21:39

oh, literally, literally never. And the thing

1:21:41

that frustrates me. And the thing that frustrates

1:21:43

me is when. You're addicted. It's okay. You

1:21:45

can just say you're addicted. I go through

1:21:48

phases where I very much am like making

1:21:50

up all the excuses and I can just

1:21:52

say I'm addicted. But like, I'm old. When I

1:21:54

was a kid, nobody had cell phones and we

1:21:56

just had like home phones and it was in

1:21:59

the kitchen or whatever. and we all survive.

1:22:01

Like, same when they're like, we can't

1:22:03

take cell phones out of schools. And

1:22:05

I'm like, I didn't have a cell

1:22:07

phone in my school a single day

1:22:09

of my life. Fine. I was final

1:22:11

day. I like loved that my parents

1:22:13

didn't know where I was. Yeah. Just

1:22:15

maybe what the parents are doing. Exactly.

1:22:17

I'm 100% with you. I feel like

1:22:19

it's an excuse. It might sound harsh.

1:22:21

It is an excuse. It is an

1:22:23

excuse. Right. You can buy an a

1:22:25

long clock. Oh no, it's my nightlight.

1:22:27

No, buy a torch. Yeah, you know,

1:22:29

like, or have a nightlight. There is no

1:22:32

reason phones should be in a bedroom. I

1:22:34

really feel strongly about it. I feel like

1:22:36

it affects our quality of sleep. Just that.

1:22:38

temptation to like scroll one more time before

1:22:41

you go to sleep while that blue light

1:22:43

is now disrupting your melatonin. Well and you're

1:22:45

when you wake up you're basically using your

1:22:47

willpower right off the get-go. So when your

1:22:50

phone's right by your bed you have to

1:22:52

basically say I don't want to be on

1:22:54

that even though your temptation would be to

1:22:56

grab it to scroll on Instagram to check

1:22:59

your email whatever so... You're having to use

1:23:01

this like limited supply of willpower right from

1:23:03

the second that you open your eyes, which

1:23:05

just feels like a waste to me 100%

1:23:07

I get it and if you can't have

1:23:09

it out of your room Well, at least

1:23:11

you know have it at least three

1:23:13

feet away from you. Okay. So

1:23:16

that's something I want to double-click

1:23:18

into the distance that the device

1:23:20

is from you drastically impacts the

1:23:22

amount of exposure that you have

1:23:24

100% like exponentially. Yeah same with

1:23:26

microwave we just talked about that

1:23:28

right so five centimeters away from

1:23:30

microwave, there's a certain level, and

1:23:32

then 20 inches away, it's a hundredth

1:23:35

of that level. That applies to your

1:23:37

phone, too. So if you have it

1:23:39

three feet away, at least, that distance

1:23:41

dilutes the amount of EMMA. So talking

1:23:44

on speaker phone is going to be

1:23:46

significantly better than putting it up to

1:23:48

your face. 100%. Yeah, there's no doubt

1:23:50

about it. How do you feel about

1:23:52

Bluetooth headphones? I'm in two minds. I

1:23:55

don't think that the devil, like everybody

1:23:57

else says, like it is not the

1:23:59

same. as putting a microwave in

1:24:01

your ears. It's completely. Or like

1:24:03

that they're communicating, like that your

1:24:05

brain is between this Bluetooth ear

1:24:07

that's communicating to this Bluetooth ear,

1:24:09

so this like wave is going

1:24:11

through your brain is like the

1:24:13

images I've seen in life. Yeah,

1:24:15

I mean, there are waves going into

1:24:18

your brain for sure, but the two

1:24:20

are not talking to you. It's not

1:24:22

like their magnets, right. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

1:24:24

But they do work by radio waves.

1:24:26

So there are sound waves traveling, that's,

1:24:28

that's for sure. If it's between holding

1:24:30

the phone next to your head or

1:24:33

using those headphones, I would choose wearing

1:24:35

those headphones because even that can reduce

1:24:37

your EMF exposure. And those are regulated

1:24:40

too. So am I a fan of, would I let

1:24:42

my children use them? They don't have

1:24:44

those headphones. Which is that again,

1:24:46

because they're like kids and you're

1:24:48

more concerned. Yeah, they're developing. I

1:24:51

feel like when you're developing that

1:24:53

you're just more susceptible to changes,

1:24:55

right? But do I wear them

1:24:57

too when I'm at the gym?

1:24:59

Yes. I tried to wear corded headphones

1:25:02

to the gym once and I

1:25:04

was just like, this is like

1:25:06

absurd. You're a danger to the

1:25:08

public, like tripping people over. And

1:25:10

to the point of like there's

1:25:12

nuance to all of this, exercise has

1:25:15

probably been shown to be the

1:25:17

single best thing we can do

1:25:19

for so many facets of our

1:25:21

health. And if I'm listening to

1:25:23

a really interesting podcast, which

1:25:26

is literally the only way

1:25:28

that I can get myself to

1:25:30

go to the gym, I'm going to

1:25:32

exercise. So if I take away the

1:25:34

podcast, am I going to be way

1:25:37

less likely to go to the gym?

1:25:39

Yes. Am I going to not do

1:25:41

that exercise? Yes. Am I going to

1:25:43

not do that exercise? Yes. Am

1:25:46

I going to not benefit

1:25:48

from all of those positive effects?

1:25:50

Yes. You know. and you know

1:25:52

listening to something definitely keeps

1:25:54

me in the gym for longer so I

1:25:56

feel like the benefit outweighs the harm from

1:25:58

a little bit of a I'll just go eat

1:26:01

more berries after my exercise.

1:26:03

You know, because one of

1:26:05

the things that people worry

1:26:08

about is oxidative damage, right,

1:26:10

from BMF. Oxitative damage is

1:26:12

kind of rust in your cell, and

1:26:15

you can mitigate that

1:26:17

with antioxidants. So drink

1:26:19

your matcher, eat your berries.

1:26:21

I love that. I feel like

1:26:23

the headline for this episode is

1:26:25

just like berries. Like the miracle

1:26:27

solution. Are there any other health

1:26:29

myths that you see online, things

1:26:31

that you don't feel like the

1:26:34

data supports that kind of drive

1:26:36

you nuts? Eating butter is good

1:26:38

for your gut health because of

1:26:40

the butery. Okay, what is the

1:26:42

science show? Well, the science shows

1:26:44

that saturated fat is actually

1:26:46

bad for your gut health, so

1:26:48

how much saturated fat is there

1:26:51

in butter? A lot, right? I'm not saying

1:26:53

don't ever eat it, but don't, should

1:26:55

you eat a stick of it, like

1:26:57

these people are eating? in the name

1:26:59

of gut health that really... Even

1:27:01

though butorate good for your gut

1:27:03

health, but you're saying again, there's

1:27:05

new ones like look at the

1:27:07

different things. We don't have studies

1:27:09

that show butorate in a form

1:27:11

of a supplement is beneficial. Butorate

1:27:13

in a form of what your

1:27:16

bacteria in the gut has produced

1:27:18

from eating fiber. Yeah, that's the

1:27:20

shortane fatty acid. Exactly. We know

1:27:23

that that... is fuel for the cells in

1:27:25

the gut itself, right? So it can prevent

1:27:27

leaky gut, for example. But that has to

1:27:29

come from the bacteria that has eaten the

1:27:31

fiber. I just don't think that there's

1:27:33

a shortcut here. So you have to

1:27:35

produce it in your body. So basically

1:27:37

for anybody listening, if you're not familiar

1:27:40

with short-changed fatty acids, it's cited in

1:27:42

almost every gut health episode I do,

1:27:44

it's just like this. phenomenal, amazing thing,

1:27:46

whatever, you want to eat fiber, particularly

1:27:48

there's a type of, I feel like

1:27:50

as insoluble is particularly good for butery

1:27:52

production. So like asparagus, it's like woody

1:27:54

types of things, your little bacteria munch

1:27:56

on them and then they essentially poop

1:27:58

out short chain fatty. acids or butyrate,

1:28:00

which it helps with leaky gut, it

1:28:03

helps with all sorts of different incredible

1:28:05

things in your body. But you're saying

1:28:07

we need that manufacturing process needs to

1:28:09

have an inside our body, there's not

1:28:11

evidence that externally adding in butyrates going

1:28:13

to produce the same effect. Not that

1:28:15

I seen. Yeah, and definitely not from

1:28:17

butter. Okay. Are you cool with butter

1:28:19

in general versus just like eating it

1:28:21

on a steak or not? I mean,

1:28:23

I will give you this thing, right?

1:28:26

Like so environmental scientists, when they go,

1:28:28

when they want to test how much

1:28:30

persistent organic pollutants, so these are contaminants

1:28:32

that kind of look in the environment,

1:28:34

when they want to test that in

1:28:36

locality, they actually go and buy the

1:28:38

butter and test that. as a measure, one

1:28:40

of the measures. Because the ideas of

1:28:42

the cows are being exposed to whatever

1:28:44

and then it's concentrating in the milk

1:28:47

and then we're concentrating that even more

1:28:49

in the fast. Yeah, it's a very

1:28:51

concentrated form, right? So the further up

1:28:53

the food chain, you're concentrating it up

1:28:55

more and more. So if you're going

1:28:57

to have butter, make sure it's from

1:29:00

a quite good source is my main

1:29:02

takeaway from that. Yeah, sourcing is really

1:29:04

important and I think that... too

1:29:06

much saturated fat is definitely not

1:29:08

good for your gut health. I

1:29:10

just want to put it out

1:29:12

there. No, the carnivore people. Yeah,

1:29:14

we're attacked. We're attacked now, but

1:29:17

you know, that's what the sign

1:29:19

shows. Yeah. That's what we got

1:29:21

to stick to. Yeah. Any other

1:29:23

things that drive you nuts? So

1:29:25

many things. I mean, I think that

1:29:27

the latest thing is, I feel

1:29:29

like people are just hyper focused

1:29:32

on very small things that in

1:29:34

the... big picture is not making

1:29:36

that much difference. So for example,

1:29:39

toilet paper, right? Do I want

1:29:41

P-fast or forever chemical on my

1:29:44

toilet paper? No. I don't

1:29:46

want that. But is that going

1:29:48

to be my biggest source

1:29:50

of exposure? No. But we are

1:29:52

people are now being scared and

1:29:55

thinking, oh my goodness, I can't. It's

1:29:57

back to your point of like if

1:29:59

you... overwhelm people too much where

1:30:02

they just like gone into this

1:30:04

mode of no action. I feel

1:30:06

like that's really detrimental. So

1:30:08

yes, I'm into like sharing

1:30:10

these findings from science, but

1:30:12

I also feel like the

1:30:14

reporting of it, like we

1:30:16

should be reporting on it

1:30:19

responsibly rather than just using

1:30:21

it as a fear-mongering way

1:30:23

to like drive. viewership or

1:30:26

whatever like you that we should be throwing

1:30:28

in nuance like yes there is pfas in

1:30:30

your toilet paper but in the grand scheme

1:30:32

of things you know go filter

1:30:34

your water first that's one thing

1:30:37

you can do like please don't

1:30:39

worry about it too much can

1:30:41

you give us like a little

1:30:43

hierarchy like first thing we should

1:30:45

do if we're trying to reduce

1:30:47

exposure to pfas yeah so let's

1:30:49

say pfas definitely your tathlon non-stick

1:30:51

pants okay that's number one yeah

1:30:53

especially if they're scratched. If they're

1:30:55

scratched, they're actually releasing four or

1:30:58

five times more pifas into your

1:31:00

food. What are your thoughts on

1:31:02

like the healthy non-stick pants? The

1:31:04

ones that say that they're pifas

1:31:06

free, that are... I've done so

1:31:09

much research on those. The back

1:31:11

and forth between me and those

1:31:13

companies is something that's... non-toxic coding.

1:31:16

Oh, ceramic. Like, no, it's not

1:31:18

ceramic. It's soul gel. But, you

1:31:21

know, what is it actually? And

1:31:23

what did you add to make

1:31:25

it this particular color? And did

1:31:28

you add anything else? We can't

1:31:30